What can Bush run on?

[Undecided]

Seriously what can this man say is an "accomplishment"?

- Intelligence failure that was 9/11 under his watch.
- Gave up the Clintonian era’s weekly terrorism council.
- Invaded Afghanistan (legit), and promised it be given much aid and to become a fully functioning country.
- 3 years after, they hardly even control Kabul, and the Taliban are actually making a comeback.
- Just for a note *Pakistan's two bordering province to Afghanistan have voted in Islamic fundamentalists, Taliban’s.* Shape of things to come, democracy gotta love it.
- Economic spiral downwards.
- 3 million jobs lost, most of them good paying jobs.
- Trade deficit boomed under Bush, and was allowed to unimpeded except for the fruitless steel tariffs, where the US blinked under international pressure.
- Outsourcing of jobs is actually a good thing according to the administration.
- Jobless recovery, although the administrations says that she will create 2.7 million jobs this year alone. How and where a question unto itself, Wal-Mart is can only do so much.
- Budget Surplus of about $200 billion in 2001, to around $550 deficit today.
- A projected Budgetary Surplus of $5.6 trillion for the decade, now a $2.3 trillion deficit for the decade ($7.9trillion loss).
- Debt was from $5 trillion in '01, to about $6.5+ trillion today, and if elected into another term it is expected to add on $5 trillion more to that debt.
- The US attracted less investment then China in 2002.
- The US invested more then she got invested into.
- Government consumption of the GDP has increased.
- In Clinton’s last spending hike it was a mere 3% increase, Bush's latest was 15%
- "Bush has created a $1.1 trillion shortfall in government revenues with his tax cuts."
-"...the U.S. GAO says that in order for America to balance its books by 2040, it will have to either cut federal spending in half or double the federal tax bite.
- Iraq was an "urgent" danger and had to be dealt with.
- "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

Secretary Powell
FOX News Sunday Interview with Tony Snow
September 8, 2002

- Iraq was attacked on March 20th, thus began the illegal invasion of Iraq.
- Bush has amassed the massive "coalition of the wiling" with only three countries actually doing the fighting, USA, UK, and Australia. Meanwhile many of the states would rather have been anonymous, or played a truly insignificant role.
- Up to 12,000 Iraqi civilians died in the ensuing battle.
- Hundreds of "wiling" soldiers died as well.
- To this day no WMD have been found in Iraq.
- To this day there is no real functioning body in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
- To this day America faces terror alerts.
- No evidence has been found to support the administrations assertion that Saddam and Al Qaeda were in Kibbutz.
- Al Qaeda (oddly enough) had to install itself in Iraq after the capitulation of Baghdad.
- The Arab street hates the US more then on 9.11.
- The US has to pay hundreds of billions for Iraq and Afghanistan (with little foreign assistance), adding to the burden on the budget.
- The Administration has increased tensions with other states by calling three of them "Axis of Evil" states.
- Effectively ending real progress with NK to get rid of her Nuclear weapons programs, and even long ranged missiles under the Clinton administration.
- Rums has indicated that tactical Nuclear weapons will not be spared, and are being developed.
- Abandoning the corner stone of nuclear treaties the ABM treaty for a truly useless system NMD.
- Increasing Russia's commitment to Nuclear weapons, and scrapping the START III treaty.
- Increased military spending from around $276 billion in 2001 to $400 billion today, and expected to boon to $1 trillion by the end of this decade. Where the money will come from, we don't know.
- Who will pay for the baby boomers? We don't know.
- Bush has alienated the rest of the world.

And so much more...

So what can this man run on?

[RonVolk]

I figure his slogans are going to be.
"Kerry diddled an intern and doesn't have a high enough moral standard to run a nation."
"The economy isn't that bad, really it isn't look at the dow the rich are getting richer"
"Were saving the world! two middle eastern countries at a time"
"I gave you Tax refunds, don't worry where the money came from, vote for me and I'll give you another"
and of course The democrats are "Evil-Doers"

[jps]

He caught Saddam, the guy who was behind 9/11 according to a significant percentage of americans.

[Voodoo Child]

In the words of an inspired Bushin30seconds clip: 9/11,9/11, terrorist, terrorist, terrorist, God bless America.

Lets see:
- war on terror. Captured people. They are terrorists. If they aren't, why are they wearing orange jump suits Hmm?
- he's a bigot just like you are. Marriage is a sacred institution. It's between a man and a woman.
- economy is going to recover. Whitehouse predicts 70 billion jobs to be created in the next 1/2 hour.
- Tax cuts. Chances are you got fuck all, but hey.
- Outstanding success of war on environment
- No involvement in Martha Stewart fraca.
- Don't the french suck?

[austere]

Bush will run on the fact that he's a "Christian" from Texas, and well, that's enough to get about 40% of the vote.

And if he fooled anyone with his reality distorting acts and laws:
NCLB Act that shutdowns public schools instead of improving
etc.
The Patriot Act.. I'm not sure how 'patriot' comes into that steaming pile of rights lost.
"Saving our forests from fire!"... by cutting them down so we get 'em before the flame does!


People will believe the nice cover of the book, because they're too lazy to open it up. And the middle-aged women in the bible belt just love when Georgie uses the word 'god' a lot in his speeches!

[cosmictraveler]

The economy is doing great for many people, the unemployment is going down, Americans are safer that before because they haven't had an incident like 9/11 since then, the home sales are at all time highs, the car sales are also very good, the average loan rates are the lowest in over 40 years, inflation is at 2 percent, the military is getting what they need to get the job done in the Middle East and Osama Bin Laden will be caught soon.

[shrubby pegasus]

The economy is doing great for many people, the unemployment is going down, Americans are safer that before because they haven't had an incident like 9/11 since then, the home sales are at all time highs, the car sales are also very good, the average loan rates are the lowest in over 40 years, inflation is at 2 percent, the military is getting what they need to get the job done in the Middle East and Osama Bin Laden will be caught soon.

are you serious?

[Undecided]

The economy is doing great for many people, .

Last time I checked poverty has increased under Bush.

, the unemployment is going down

Compared to the 4% that Bush came in with? The unemployment rate is way up, also the VAST majority of those 1000 jobs per month being created are low wage jobs. This is not what an economy is built on.

Americans are safer that before because they haven't had an incident like 9/11 since then

The Anthrax attacks, increased international terrorism against Australians, Pakistanis, Israeli's and American and British interests? Are you so sure?

the home sales are at all time highs ,the car sales are also very good, the average loan rates are the lowest in over 40 years

Oh how the mighty will fall, when the Fed increases interest rates, the average American will not be able to pay back those "costs". American private debt has simply exploded.

inflation is at 2 percent,

Inflation in the US has hit its lowest level for nearly 38 years, according to the latest official data.
The figures showed prices fell slightly last month, bringing the annual rate of underlying inflation down to 1.1%.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3325501.stm

Really?

the military is getting what they need to get the job done in the Middle East and Osama Bin Laden will be caught soon.

At the cost of the US budget, debt, economic future, and social programs. You should feel proud when your taxes are doubled to maintain your logic.

[cosmictraveler]

Undecided........You asked what Bush should run on and I gave you what he has accomplished. The unemployment has gone down from over a 6.5 percent high to now in the 5.5 percent range. That is going down isn't it? You are a twister of words, are you some kind of shill for the democrats? The items I have spoken about aren't twisted around like you like to do. If Gore was in the Presidents office and he had the same problems that Bush has had I would state what he had done to help America not try to destroy what he did by twisting what people say. Look at my words about terrorist attacks and you will see I sain nothing like 9/11 has happened, then look what your reply was. You really like to twist things around, don't you.

[Tano]

Americans are safer that before because they haven't had an incident like 9/11 since then...

Yah, you're right about that; we haven't been attacked since 9/11... but have you thought about the thousands of dead Iraqis? Do they have a national holiday for our invasion/massacre?

[Undecided]

Undecided........You asked what Bush should run on and I gave you what he has accomplished.

Let's focus on this shall we? Accomplish means to get better then before, to get better then before would mean to get below the 4% rate of Clinton era, or at least maintaining it. As of today Bush has accomplished nothing on this front.

The unemployment has gone down from over a 6.5 percent high to now in the 5.5 percent range.

The wages of these employees are low, these are jobs you want let alone proud of?

You are a twister of words, are you some kind of shill for the democrats?

No I merely tell the reality of the situation, if Bush goes on like this he will be the second president to ever have had a net loss of jobs.

The items I have spoken about aren't twisted around like you like to do.

LOL! ok.

Look at my words about terrorist attacks and you will see I sain nothing like 9/11 has happened,

That is SO irrelevant is it not even funny, Americans today are under the constant threat against another 9.11, American first responders have failed time and again to respond to an attack, and guess who is cutting their budgets? That's right GWB, what a patriot.

then look what your reply was. You really like to twist things around, don't you

Well at least I don't lie, alas you, nothing you have said has proven me incorrect, and nothing you have shown proves me incorrect. Thus by logical deduction I am right.

[Tiassa]

Bush has exactly nothing to run on, and that's what makes him dangerous. Americans love fluff.

[Eluminate]

ya ur so un-bias and truthfull

average person doesn't care about US foreign policy what they do care
about is the tax refund of 600-1500 dollars coming up in april 15th and the 2.5% lowering of taxes taken from their paychek. And you think the word "deficit" registers with people they know its just an exagurated outcry.
The deficit is 4% of gdp or some other indicator after ww2 it was 50% of that indicator somehow it got paid back. To an average person the word deficit means nothing.

Screaming for american jobs to be saved won't do it its simply much nicer to pay a percon 15 cents an hour instead of 15 dollars this is beyond the reach of a government this is ecconomics and they dictate that the cheapest and most efficient labor should get the job. They will be replaced by something else probably higher paying. But its ok my vote goes to Bush and no matter how much you scream in the opposite direction voting is what counts. :)

P.S. the dot com bust kinda had something to do with some of those programmers loosing their jobs dont you think?

if you would like some constructive debate instead of this parody of a democracy come to www.rogueshark.co.uk

[cosmictraveler]

Undecided........You asked what Bush should run on and I gave you what he has accomplished.

Let's focus on this shall we? Accomplish means to get better then before, to get better then before would mean to get below the 4% rate of Clinton era, or at least maintaining it. As of today Bush has accomplished nothing on this front.

The unemployment has gone down from over a 6.5 percent high to now in the 5.5 percent range.

The wages of these employees are low, these are jobs you want let alone proud of?

You are a twister of words, are you some kind of shill for the democrats?

No I merely tell the reality of the situation, if Bush goes on like this he will be the second president to ever have had a net loss of jobs.

The items I have spoken about aren't twisted around like you like to do.

LOL! ok.

Look at my words about terrorist attacks and you will see I sain nothing like 9/11 has happened,

That is SO irrelevant is it not even funny, Americans today are under the constant threat against another 9.11, American first responders have failed time and again to respond to an attack, and guess who is cutting their budgets? That's right GWB, what a patriot.

then look what your reply was. You really like to twist things around, don't you

Well at least I don't lie, alas you, nothing you have said has proven me incorrect, and nothing you have shown proves me incorrect. Thus by logical deduction I am right.

Undecided ....Your just another person that only wants to see things they way you want them to be not as they are. If that is what you think is happening then so be it. You can live in your own world of inuendo and bias but reality one day will set you free. It is people like yourself that make people worry about what's happening because your the type that likes to embelish stories as the way you want them to be. So go right on and show everyone here how you can distort facts and truths with your twisted ways of writting.

[1368]

It's funny how politics can boil down to just who you believe.

[Undecided]

What a shock, an ad hom reply from a republican!

Undecided ....Your just another person that only wants to see things they way you want them to be not as they are.

No, because I am not a democrat, nor am I a republican. I am not affiliated with a party. So politically I have little bias on this issue. What I see is what is out there.

If that is what you think is happening then so be it.

It's not what I think it happening it is what I know is happening. There is a difference.

You can live in your own world of inuendo and bias but reality one day will set you free.

You surely haven't this ad hom discussion you are having with me is not disproving anything that I have said. What you are trying to do (in vain) is somehow defile me by saying "I am right you are wrong, because I believe that you are x". You have yet to actually show what your position is apart from being against what I have written. Show me, don't blow me. *is it innuendo you were trying to say*?

It is people like yourself that make people worry about what's happening because your the type that likes to embelish stories as the way you want them to be.

Where is the embellishment? Do show.

So go right on and show everyone here how you can distort facts and truths with your twisted ways of writting.

I haven't seen your facts to support this assertion, start showing me that I am wrong, not saying I am because you know as well as I do that your "your wrong" screaming means quite little.

[Undecided]

about is the tax refund of 600-1500 dollars coming up in april 15th and the 2.5% lowering of taxes taken from their paychek.

But polls suggest that ppl in the US would rather have the same tax burden as they did under Clinton, then have a Bush economy.

And you think the word "deficit" registers with people they know its just an exagurated outcry.

Of course that is a lie, the deficit does play a major role in any efforts to pay for programs in the future. The deficit it is expected will not be solved under Bush, and may even stay at $400 billion+ until 2009. What does that mean? Well who is going to pay for the baby boomers when there is $2 trillion short fall in revenue? Who is going to pay for the added $5 trillion of debt? The US still pays on it's debt payments and when the US dollar goes up so do the payments.

The deficit is 4% of gdp or some other indicator after ww2 it was 50% of that indicator somehow it got paid back.

I would like to see a source for the WWII assertion, and the latest budget deficit I believe is actually more around 6% of the GDP, the highest in US history.

To an average person the word deficit means nothing.

So that excuses the deficit then? In total disregard for the serious economic damage that does in the long run?

Screaming for american jobs to be saved won't do it its simply much nicer to pay a percon 15 cents an hour instead of 15 dollars this is beyond the reach of a government this is ecconomics and they dictate that the cheapest and most efficient labor should get the job.

I support Globalization, thus this appeal is not going to work for me. But to the so called "average joe" yes this does mean a lot.

But its ok my vote goes to Bush and no matter how much you scream in the opposite direction voting is what counts. :)

So you would vote for someone who you knowingly can do harm to your country? That is not being very patriotic now is it? Or is it that you are in the "cult of the personality" that Bush seems to have created with the ilk like you?

[cosmictraveler]

I don't vote because all politicans are cheats, liars and crooks. It's just that some of them are better at disguising themselves as being helpful when the truth is they are looking out for those in their camps. I have never registered to vote and never will. I'm not a republican but a moderate looking at both sides and evaluating as best I can as to what the facts are.

[Eluminate]

well undicided i doubt any arguments i have for the other side will have any bearing on helping you realize not everyone thinks like YOU or like People you know... some think differently. And if bush is the antichrist then i m still gonna vote for him because i believe my own inner self rathern then you guilting me into believing your embelishments and lies.

[CounslerCoffee]

Watch it, ya'll. Do not make me close/delete this thread. Undecided, settle down, please. I don't want more PMs in my inbox.

[15ofthe19]

Intelligence failure that was 9/11 under his watch.

Attempting to put this on Bush's head is akin to blaming WWII on FDR. A mistake made only by those who know little of history.

The U.S. was attacked by Al-Qaeda repeatedly throughout the 90's and did very little in response. Cruise missiles aimed at backwater camps and Sudanese chemical plants were the extent of our armed response to the growing threat.

The "blame" for 9/11 can be spread around the world.

[Undecided]

cosmictraveler

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Eluminate

well undicided i doubt any arguments i have for the other side will have any bearing on helping you realize not everyone thinks like YOU or like People you know... some think differently.

I recognize that other ppl think differently then me, I am in charge of a debating organization. I am well aware of differences, but sadly one is almost more logical, and one is innately more beneficial. Sadly for you, your system is literally mortgaging America's future, and guaranteeing the doubling of those same taxes by 2040, your kids will love you for you selfishness.

i believe my own inner self rathern then you guilting me into believing your embelishments and lies.


Which you have not been able to show, where are these "embellishments? Where are these lies? Sorry but mere rhetoric's mean nothing and I think you know that.

CounslerCoffee

I don't understand why you get those PM's? Ever think because ppl are angry that they don't have points as shown as above? I guess they are angry because I expose that they have no cognitive points? Think of the context of the PM’s not the quantity of the PM’s.

[gregoftheweb]

Bush will run on primarily one issue: His administrations efforts in the war on terrorism have made americans safer.

There is merit in that argument.

The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq have liberated over 50 million people, which has warranted both Bush and Blair to be nominated for a Nobel Peace prize that is hard to argue against.

The use of force has been instrumental in 1) bringing Lybia to the table regarding its Nuclear weapons program 2) bringing the scary Pakistani program to light and hopeful ending its proliferation of nuke technology 3) making North Korea understand the true stakes of the game they are playing in.

It is unlikely that these things would have occurred without the use and display of the "big stick". I won't outright dismiss negotiation with the North Koreans, but seeing the other side of negotiation can have only helped them understand the position they are putting themselves in.

He can also legitimately claim that through the administrations efforts there have been no more terrorist attacks on US soil since 911. I'm not sure I would have taken that bet had it been proffered to me in October 2001.

These are legitimate items that can be claimed by the administration. The war on terrorists is of chief concern for a large percentage of the population.

Whether you believe it or not, I am simply laying out what can be claimed and supportted by the Bush administrations as important accomplishments.

[Undecided]

gregoftheweb

Thank you for actually showing an alternative to just lying, and attacking with rhetoric's.

The war on terrorists is of chief concern for a large percentage of the population.


But the economy is a MUCH larger issue for the American ppl. Iraq seems to be on shaky ground, Afghanistan is by all accounts a disaster of foreign policy. Americans will blame the wars for the budget deficit, and terrorism is slipping from the minds of Americans. If Bush can't win the economy he won't win the election.

[Voodoo Child]

The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq have liberated over 50 million people, which has warranted both Bush and Blair to be nominated for a Nobel Peace prize that is hard to argue against.

Afghanistan isn't really that liberated, for most of the country it is warlords, taliban and business as usual. Anyone can be nominated for a nobel peace prize, it doesn't mean anything.

The use of force has been instrumental in 1) bringing Lybia to the table regarding its Nuclear weapons program 2) bringing the scary Pakistani program to light and hopeful ending its proliferation of nuke technology 3) making North Korea understand the true stakes of the game they are playing in.

1) It seems that way
2) eh?
3) Since the Bush administration has been in power relations with North Korea have greatly worsened. Intimidation will only work with middle eastern minnows. N. Korea won't be pressured in the same way.

It is unlikely that these things would have occurred without the use and display of the "big stick". I won't outright dismiss negotiation with the North Koreans, but seeing the other side of negotiation can have only helped them understand the position they are putting themselves in

Will they capitulate or seek nuclear weapons will renewed vigour in order to protect themselves?

He can also legitimately claim that through the administrations efforts there have been no more terrorist attacks on US soil since 911. I'm not sure I would have taken that bet had it been proffered to me in October 2001.

That's inconsistent: you absolve Bush from blame in regard to 9/11, but give him credit for stoping the attacks thereafter. Given the rarity of attacks on US soil, this is no great accomplishment, anyway. There have been two in the last 15 years. And who says this is a result of his policies? I'd attribute it to increased vigilence on the part of the appropriate govt. agencies.

[CounslerCoffee]

I don't understand why you get those PM's? Ever think because ppl are angry that they don't have points as shown as above? I guess they are angry because I expose that they have no cognitive points? Think of the context of the PM’s not the quantity of the PM’s.

No. It's the way that you post, Undecided. People tend to take your posts as attacks. I know, that by looking at your post it does appear that you are doing so, when you are not. TYPING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T HELP EITHER.

[Don Hakman]

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/headsroll.jpg

[Undecided]

I find it the absolute HEIGHT of hypocrisy, when the architect of war, being Perle has the gall to actually say that Mr. Tenet should be fired!!! I almost spit on Paula Zahn during that interview, that man is the greatest threat to the world, forget Kim.

[Eluminate]

the deficit is not as big as you claim it to be 500 billion or more is nothing taken in comparison of gdp its about 4-6 percent. Taxes do not need to be higher to pay off the debt. Time+inflation and gdp growth could make up for any lost revenue taxwise in the meantime.

Honestly speaking noone knows a legacy of a president while he is in office it cannot be gauged or judged effectively until long after. You can speculate all you want but what happens and what people think is going to happen are two different things. Bush didnt loose the 3 million jobs the internet buble burst that wasn't his fault. He didnt make people believe a company with losses was worth billions. The recession is more or less over and the cycle will pick up no matter who the next president is. They "presidents" do not make jobs they provide incentives but they do not make business hire or fire people. The ecconomy isn't completely controled by the gov't we arent running a controlled ecconomy are we? So yes you exagurate and scream fire where there is none and embelish with facts which arent compared to the whole.

- A projected Budgetary Surplus of $5.6 trillion for the decade, now a $2.3 trillion deficit for the decade ($7.9trillion loss).
projected when? before nasdaq went from 5 thousand to 2 and all those internet companies went bust?

- "Bush has created a $1.1 trillion shortfall in government revenues with his tax cuts."
i dont care about revenue shortfall for the gov't , I care about revenue shortfall for my pocket.
-"...the U.S. GAO says that in order for America to balance its books by 2040, it will have to either cut federal spending in half or double the federal tax bite.
wow they can predict accurately 30+ some odd years in the future? Things change with time and creating a linear growth curve isn't realistic unless you want to scare someone.

[Undecided]

the deficit is not as big as you claim it to be 500 billion or more is nothing taken in comparison of gdp its about 4-6 percent.

That is what I claimed! That is huge budget deficits even conservatives are mad at Bush for being a liberal spender in conservative shoes. The US has to import $1.5 billion a day to support itself. That is simply not sustainable. Simple.

Taxes do not need to be higher to pay off the debt. Time+inflation and gdp growth could make up for any lost revenue taxwise in the meantime.

Growth, please most the growth will be with corporations who have their HQ's in the Cayman Islands so they can escape the tax man. Inflation is low, and growth is faux, workers aren't going back to work. So where will this "tax revenue" come from? That is assuming that the government doesn't spend more money as well, by the looks of it Government spending is going up by 15% and the economy? 3%

The ecconomy isn't completely controled by the gov't we arent running a controlled ecconomy are we? So yes you exagurate and scream fire where there is none and embelish with facts which arent compared to the whole.

Bush is not in control of the economy that is true, but let's see Bush only made it worse by ballooning the deficit to unknown levels, it was Bush's team that proclaims that exporting jobs are good for Americans. The tax cuts have not provided the "stimulus" as of yet and its been 3 years...where's the beef?

projected when? before nasdaq went from 5 thousand to 2 and all those internet companies went bust?

Which has almost nil to do with it, the markets have very little to do with the budget. The tax cuts, and enormous spending on the military have made this deficit. If Bush did not cut taxes then we would be in surplus today, or a very small deficit.

i dont care about revenue shortfall for the gov't , I care about revenue shortfall for my pocket.

Which is symptomatic of short vision, you care about your wallet. Well wait until the government gives you $50 a month for your pension when your 401k collapses.

wow they can predict accurately 30+ some odd years in the future? Things change with time and creating a linear growth curve isn't realistic unless you want to scare someone.

Following current trends which you somehow support, that is the reality. The American economy will not grow fast enough to make up the tax burden. Welcome to Globalization, companies and jobs are leaving not coming.

[Eluminate]

several things:
1.when 2-3 million programmers who were making between 70-120k a year get laid off and have to get federal&state unemployment asistance doesn't effect the budget in any way? Not even mentioning the billions that were gotten from ipo floating and capital gains... which are now very very small compared to those levels and are just pickin up.
2. as I said you cannot force a company to hire people here if its not wage competative unless you want the to go out of business. And imposing penalties on them would give some insentive to mout out completely of the US market and reduce the marketplace in effect shifting prices higher by reducing the total market of producers.
3. My last statement about the 30 years prediction was a sarcasm, they can hardly predict 1 year accurately into the future not to mention 36.
4. 64-67% of americans got about 600-1500 because of bush's tax cuts thats a big stimulus. I kinda think money ending up in peoples pockets instead of the govt is a plus apparently you rather have it sent as a welfare check to someone who doesn't work for a living.
5. If gdp grows at 4-5% yearly and debt 10yr is 4.3-4.5% last i looked isn't it in effect a zero sum? thats besides considering 1% inflation and other ecconomic factors which would make it beneficial to borrow and give to people in tax cuts making the growth higher by cycling the funds through the ecconomy instead of out of it.

[Undecided]

1.when 2-3 million programmers who were making between 70-120k a year get laid off and have to get federal&state unemployment asistance doesn't effect the budget in any way?

The vast majority of jobs lost were not high priced programmers; no most were in the mid-west industrial belt, and in the South with textiles. Real Americans are suffering and Bush is going to pay his non-chalant attitude towards them and their jobs. Trust me saying that exporting American jobs is not a very smart political move in an election year, and Bush has not said Mr.Mankiw was wrong.

2. as I said you cannot force a company to hire people here if its not wage competative unless you want the to go out of business. And imposing penalties on them would give some insentive to mout out completely of the US market and reduce the marketplace in effect shifting prices higher by reducing the total market of producers.

I agree with you, and I agree with Globalization I don't have a problem with the system. But millions of Americans do, and they decide who is in the WH come November.

3. My last statement about the 30 years prediction was a sarcasm, they can hardly predict 1 year accurately into the future not to mention 36.

If they follow current trends, more likely then not that will be the case. Obviously what they are trying to say is that Bush-onomics is not working, and putting the United States in a VERY dangerous position indeed.

4. 64-67% of americans got about 600-1500 because of bush's tax cuts thats a big stimulus.

Love to see that source... also consumer confidence is down to the best of my knowledge, and what stimulus? The only thing that is going up is debt.

I kinda think money ending up in peoples pockets instead of the govt is a plus apparently you rather have it sent as a welfare check to someone who doesn't work for a living.

No I think that someone with some ethics would want ppl to have government programs. I suggest you read up Utilitarianism because it is your ethics that denigrates society into a cess pool of poverty, and backwardness. The United States and other western states are founded on the principles of Utilitarianism, and it's ethos. As a Canadian, I love seeing my money going to my free health care, so you know I can live. Unlike 43 million Americans who can't afford to go to your so called "hospitals".

5. If gdp grows at 4-5% yearly and debt 10yr is 4.3-4.5% last i looked isn't it in effect a zero sum?

If the Budget is growing by 15% per annum like it did with this budget? With Imports growing faster then exports? Sorry debt is increasing beyond measure, four more years of Bush is expected to create another $5 trillion of debt that your children will be paying. So less money is their pocket, and collapse of the American consumer economy.

thats besides considering 1% inflation and other ecconomic factors which would make it beneficial to borrow and give to people in tax cuts making the growth higher by cycling the funds through the ecconomy instead of out of it


Ah yes when those interest rates go up, what fun... what fun.

[Eluminate]

OH YOUR A CANADIAN? lol and I thought you lived in US like me and could vote.
What the hell am I arguing with you for. Well utilitarianism I ain reading about
I dont like the notion at all. Government programs for people usually run poorly
and are almost always do worse then ever planned. The budget will not grow 15% per annum we both know that its gonna be scaled be and cuts in the programs will be made. You kinda ignored the point in my last scentance, when those rates go over 1% ergo inflation it would in effect be financialy beneficial to have debt because the rate of inflation is eating it faster then you are repaying it. Therefor those who financed you are loosing money and you are getting a debt load at below inflation levels or semi-free. And no they can't predict 30 years in advance as I said before they have trouble predicting 1 year ahead.

[Undecided]

OH YOUR A CANADIAN? lol and I thought you lived in US like me and could vote. What the hell am I arguing with you for.

Wow, I have never been subjected to so much undeserved exceptionalism in my life, pathetic...yes. But that's the way these neo-cons think.

Well utilitarianism I ain reading about
I dont like the notion at all. Government programs for people usually run poorly
and are almost always do worse then ever planned.

Actually government healthcare here in Canada is not that bad at all, irregardless of what you hear in the US. Most Canadians want universal healthcare, then risk not being covered at all. Consider this, Canada is running a budget surplus, and you are a deficit. So thus government spending is better then not, but oddly the US spends the most on healthcare then the rest of the world. No wonder we constantly beat you on the UN HDI.

The budget will not grow 15% per annum we both know that its gonna be scaled be and cuts in the programs will be made.

You know this for certain? The budget will grow in my est. much faster then the GDP as long as Bush is in power. Thus the deficit will stay if not grow.

You kinda ignored the point in my last scentance, when those rates go over 1% ergo inflation it would in effect be financialy beneficial to have debt because the rate of inflation is eating it faster then you are repaying it.

Interest rates I assume? The recent boom in the US is being fueled by low interest rates, once they go up the market will cool, it's only a matter of time. Cars, houses, etc are bound by these rates, and so is debt.

And no they can't predict 30 years in advance as I said before they have trouble predicting 1 year ahead

Hmmm...please re-read, if current trends continue... ;) Which you do support, so do tell which programs should be cut?

[Eluminate]

I m hardly a neo-conserative. The only reason I m voting for a republican is because of tax cuts. Thats is it. I want marijuana legalized as well as other soft drugs. Abortion is a non-issue to me. Protitution should be legolized and free speech protected up the arse. But I cant stand overspending thats just my nature thats why I m voting republican. A few years ago the Ny budget spent $300 per toilet seat I hope that never happens again. They were dubbed golden toilet seats by press, in reality they cost less then 5 to manufacture. Where exactly did I say current trends will continue? I dont really think current trends continue I said things come in cycles thats not the same thing. Also I hate unions a lot and I m not loaded my family is lower-middle income bracket.

Welfare, affirmative action are the first that should be cut in my mind.

[Undecided]

The only reason I m voting for a republican is because of tax cuts. Thats is it.

Which has done untold harm to the US economically and socially so you can buy a new TV? If you are lower middle class there is no need to vote Bush anyways, the democrats have said that they will not repeal the middle class tax cut, so unless your rich you have very little to fear.

A few years ago the Ny budget spent $300 per toilet seat I hope that never happens again.

But you think that doesn't happen in the military? You don't think spending $400 billion of your money, and the country is still chronically short men, and wasting your money in some imperial adventure overseas is not wasting money? HAH! Obviously $300 is outrageous, but that is no reason why public spending should be cut or mitigated in any way. Americans are reverting back into a protectionist past again, and the cyclical has begun you are right. Chances are you will pay more taxes in the long run for the meager tax cut you get now.

Where exactly did I say current trends will continue?

You are advocating current trends.

I dont really think current trends continue I said things come in cycles thats not the same thing.

Cycles are totally subjective, they could mean nothing. Who says that this jobless recovery will last? Chances are that the US will not be able to bite Bush's tax cuts, simple Globalization.

Also I hate unions a lot and I m not loaded my family is lower-middle income bracket.

Well you don't sound lower middle class, but you have a right to think what you want. I am not a big fan of unions myself, but I do recognize their value.

[SwedishFish]

"I don't vote"

thank goodness for that

mr. coffee, i object. political debate does get lively and it should.

[SwedishFish]

"No wonder we constantly beat you on the UN HDI."

but not by a lot. canada is #3 while the us is #6. however, the us got such a high ranking only because it is so rich (on the upper end only). if you sift through the individual rankings, the us falls pitifully low except for gdp where it is on top by a long shot.

[zonabi]

So what can this man run on?
hes under alien control. or some kind of mind control by some force.
clearly hes not in his right mind half the things that come out of his mouth are wierd and nonsensical. his actions are shady too.
they even have a calander with his stupid words for each day. some of them really make me wonder what the hell is going on in his mind.

[Eluminate]

My father works for a small marble & tile contractor for a long time now.
Unions are like mafia they occupy things and dont let you work even if you got a right to it. They had some work in manhattan to put in a mozaik on a marble floor the union retards didnt let him work because he wasnt a union member until his boss came and hired one of their reject morons. All that guy did throughout the whole day was when a union moron came he showed that he was a member he was sitting at the entrance the whole day doing absolutely nothing. They are leeches + teachers should be fireable I had a teacher who did nothing but berate kids all day a pure sob he taught sht and blamed the kids for being idiots and thats in a good school. He got in trouble for screaming and cursing a kid but nothing serious happened.

And no the tax cuts are definetely better for the long term. The growing trend in ny is more and more republican. Taxing less means spending less and budgeting less. Sure they might go negative but it wouldnt be as much a negative if they had more money.

And I m advocating that: Bush does have something to run on in rebuttal of your thread not current trends.

[SwedishFish]

i would like to know where he plans on getting the money for these tax cuts. even the republicans are butting heads about bush's irresponsible fiscal spending. the state level republicans are especially opposed to it. let's try for a president who can do math next time.

[Persol]

What can Bush run on?
Water?

He's probably got a key chain or something that says WWJD, and plans to live by that. Let's just hope he tries to test this whole 'running on water' thing in the ocean, and doesn't continue to test it on the economy.

[Eluminate]

liberal bstrds nothing concrete just flingin sht
that bribe taking weasel kerry is a great substitute too bad he isn't gonna win.

[Undecided]

And no the tax cuts are definetely better for the long term.

The same was said of the Reagan tax cuts, all major tax cuts eventually lead to tax increases to make up the shortfall, hardly if ever do these actually pay themselves back. Bush sr. had a $300 billion budget deficit, and Clinton got rid of that by decreasing gov't, and increasing taxes. For that the US had its longest and best boom ever. Taxes are not a bad thing if used wisely.

The growing trend in ny is more and more republican. Taxing less means spending less and budgeting less.

By the looks of it, it is the Democrats who are the deficit cutters and republicans are the big spenders.

Sure they might go negative but it wouldnt be as much a negative if they had more money.

The money being sent to the public is a good thing, but it does long term damage. This is only increasing the amount of class difference in the US, where the poor will not be able to afford healthcare (as they do now), and increasing rates for things that should be offered by the public. If you want smaller gov't then you should expect more poverty, more crime, and more malaise. We are condemned to be free- Sartre Freedom is more then you think.

And I m advocating that: Bush does have something to run on in rebuttal of your thread not current trends.

But if you support Bush's economic plans, you have no choice but to accept it's logical outcomes.

[SwedishFish]

liberal bstrds nothing concrete just flingin sht
that bribe taking weasel kerry is a great substitute too bad he isn't gonna win.

it's not that i don't like conservatives or republicans. many of them are quite brilliant. actually, i despise democrats for other reasons if you want to know. but you haven't even tried putting up a well thought out and intelligible argument in favor of bush while throwing down perfectly valid points based on fact. ad hominem is not an argument. please do try harder. i'm starting to feel bad for the guy as no one can defend him.

kerry has no huevos. i don't favor him as alternative to bush either. if you're going to hint at being anti-war then have the balls to testify at the winter soldier meetings. he also voted in favor of iraq and is against gay marriages. bring me another candidate please.

[Eluminate]

Cough cough internet boom by the way depression started under clinton when the buble burst.
The money being sent to the public is a good thing it cycles through the ecconomy and makes expand and grow.
Except its logical outcome wow I cant see into the future can you?
You remember my post about how we cant judge presidents while they are in office only way afterwards it applies there...

sweedish go back a few pages and read all my intelligent posts I m just on the brink of being very angry at this point.

[shrubby pegasus]

sweedish go back a few pages and read all my intelligent posts I m just on the brink of being very angry at this point.

im waiting to see one of these intelligent posts. you have just been blowing the republican trumpet. they preach one thing and do the opposite. you bought it to it and are even trying to spread this infection of deceit

[Tiassa]

As if "No Child Left Behind" wasn't enough, Bush administration Education Secretary throws gasoline on the fire:Education Secretary Rod Paige called the National Education Association a "terrorist organization" Monday as he argued that the country's largest teachers union often acts at odds with the wishes of rank-and-file teachers regarding school standards and accountability.

Paige later issued a written release saying that statement, made during a conversation with governors, "was an inappropriate choice of words" but reiterated his criticism of the NEA and its Washington lobbyists.

An administration official said the secretary was "clearly joking" but he should not have used the "terrorist" label in taking issue with the NEA -- which is not only the largest teachers union but also a major player in Democratic Party politics . . . .

. . . . "It was an inappropriate choice of words to describe the obstructionist scare tactics the NEA's Washington lobbyists have employed against No Child Left Behind's historic education reforms.

" I also said, as I have repeatedly, that our nation's teachers, who have dedicated their lives to service in the classroom, are the real soldiers of democracy, whereas the NEA's high-priced Washington lobbyists have made no secret that they will fight against bringing real, rock-solid improvements in the way we educate all our children regardless of skin color, accent or where they live.

"But, as one who grew up on the receiving end of insensitive remarks, I should have chosen my words better." (CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02/23/paige.terrorist.nea/index.html))So y'all thought the peaceniks were full o'shite when they said trade unions woud be labeled as terrorists ....

• King, John. "Paice calls NEA 'terrorist organization." CNN.com, February 23, 2004. See http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02/23/paige.terrorist.nea/index.html

[Eluminate]

The funny thing is that i m the only one that lives in us and votes.

[SwedishFish]

hahahaaha where did you get that from?

[Undecided]

Eluminate


I think I am the only one here who isn't American...and most likely then not, Swedish Fish. What difference does it make anyways? So what if we don't vote? This is a Globalized world, we influence you as much as you do us.

[SwedishFish]

i'm american and registered to vote since i was 17. just going back a couple of posts, both tiassa and pegasus are american too.
we shouldn't be surprised that this person made that ridiculous assumption, based on all the other ones he's made in this thread.

[Eluminate]

i'm american and registered to vote since i was 17. just going back a couple of posts, both tiassa and pegasus are american too.
we shouldn't be surprised that this person made that ridiculous assumption, based on all the other ones he's made in this thread.

na i just made it based on undicided , also if you flip back a bit i had good arguments its just they got discarded entirely my last outbreak was just being fed up with belittling my views and convictions as outright wrong. I v been to some of the conservative boards where liberals get a much better say and replies to how their views are different. Not this much trashing just cause I see something different then you, all I tried to show was why it was that way I m not trying to convert you into being republican so please dont try to convert me into being a democrat.

[SwedishFish]

are you telling me not to convert you into a democrat? seriously dude, when did i ever do that? i hate democrats worse than i hate republicans so little chance there. basing something on one person is a great idea by the way. i'm glad you're in the voting pool.

[Eluminate]

sweedish it wasn't directed to you , more towards undicided if you notice in previous pages. My posts have some merit there if you ignore the one you think I m acting like a jackss

[Undecided]

I'm not even a democrat...I just don't like Bush, and for good reason as I have shown. Trickle down economics have never worked...