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Proud_Muslim
02-05-04, 06:11 AM
http://www.donquijote.org/album/photos/album/granada_la_alhambra.jpg

http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Ibn_Battuta/Grenada2-11.gif

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/sacredplaces/images/cordobainta.jpg

When you think of European culture, one of the first things that may come to your mind is the renaissance. Many of the roots of European culture can be traced back to that glorious time of art, science, commerce and architecture. But did you know that long before the renaissance there was a place of humanistic beauty in Muslim Spain? Not only was it artistic, scientific and commercial, but it also exhibited incredible tolerance, imagination and poetry. Moors, as the Spaniards call the Muslims, populated Spain for nearly 700 years. As you'll see, it was their civilization that enlightened Europe and brought it out of the dark ages to usher in the renaissance. Many of their cultural and intellectual influences still live with us today.

Way back during the eighth century, Europe was still knee-deep in the Medieval period. That's not the only thing they were knee-deep in. In his book, "The Day The Universe Changed," the historian James Burke describes how the typical European townspeople lived:

"The inhabitants threw all their refuse into the drains in the center of the narrow streets. The stench must have been overwhelming, though it appears to have gone virtually unnoticed. Mixed with excrement and urine would be the soiled reeds and straw used to cover the dirt floors. (p. 32)

http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm

RonVolk
02-05-04, 03:42 PM
Yea, then that crazy inquisition thing happened. (joking) Don't worry Proud Muslim, Spain managed to get rid of their Jewish population as well. So basically they "got rid of" everyone that could write, read, count past 20, and religiously believed in taking out the trash. Great move on their part.
Anyways back on topic, the Irish managed to save some pre-medievel stuff as well.
Check out "How The Irish Saved Civilization"

spidergoat
02-05-04, 06:42 PM
From your link...


Ironically, it wasn't just the strength of the Christians that defeated the Arabs but the disharmony among the Moor's own ranks. Like Greece and Rome that proceeded them, the Moors of Al-Andalus fell into moral decay and wandered from the intellect that had made them great.

That's a shame. We do owe a great debt to those moors for their intellectual achievements, and for being responsible for the preservation of greek and roman writings, and arab commentary.

thefountainhed
02-05-04, 06:52 PM
What nonsense. By the time the moors were thrown out of spain, spain was an immense power in europe. Also a lack of man power and a lack of a safe sea precipitated their decline. Combine all that with religious and racial spite and assistance from the french, etc. Fuck it. another time maybe

Proud_Muslim
02-06-04, 02:55 AM
Yea, then that crazy inquisition thing happened. (joking) Don't worry Proud Muslim, Spain managed to get rid of their Jewish population as well. So basically they "got rid of" everyone that could write, read, count past 20, and religiously believed in taking out the trash. Great move on their part.
Anyways back on topic, the Irish managed to save some pre-medievel stuff as well.
Check out "How The Irish Saved Civilization"

You know, I am Syrian with Spanish Muslim heritgae, when people see me in Europe, they think I am either Spanish or IRISH !!!!

I always thought there must have been some connection between Ireland and Muslim Spain, I dont know where I heard it, but some Muslim Spanish coins were discovered in Ireland and many Irish traders and scholars lived in Muslim Spain.

http://islamiccoins.ancients.info/spain/154andalus.JPG

Even ORFA, the English king, struck his coin with the Muslim declaration of faith:

LA ILAH ILA ALLAH, MUHAMMAD RASOULU ALLAH ( no God but Allah, Muhammad is his messenger )

It is amazing how these people lived at that time....sometimes, i wish time will go back just for a while to live with them for couple of days to see how life really was at that early cold time in our history.

Proud_Muslim
02-06-04, 02:57 AM
What nonsense. By the time the moors were thrown out of spain, spain was an immense power in europe. Also a lack of man power and a lack of a safe sea precipitated their decline. Combine all that with religious and racial spite and assistance from the french, etc. Fuck it. another time maybe

This is not accurate, Spain gained its immense power after they started stealing the GOLD from latin America after 1492 AD ( the year the last Muslim city of Granada fell to the catholics ).

everneo
02-06-04, 04:05 AM
It is amazing how these people lived at that time....sometimes, i wish time will go back just for a while to live with them for couple of days to see how life really was at that early cold time in our history.
Fine, why do you want company.?

thefountainhed
02-06-04, 01:16 PM
Syrian:

By the time the moors were thrown out of spain

Proud_Muslim
02-06-04, 01:33 PM
Syrian:

By the time the moors were thrown out of spain

:confused:

Hastein
02-06-04, 03:41 PM
Amazing! I enjoy learning about ancient times and Moorish Spain is one of the more beautiful places I have read about. We owe much our western wisdom to the Muslims who preserved it. Thank you for putting this here.

guthrie
02-06-04, 03:58 PM
King orfa? You got a link for that?
Of course, you dont mention that the Moors invaded spain in order to take it over and then build their civilisation. Hey, give Israel a couple hundred years, maybe theyll build a great, humanistic civilisation in the middle east.

Pollux V
02-06-04, 05:03 PM
Isn't Israel the only democracy in the Middle East? In spite of the nation's evil, that's something they have going for them.

And the Moors were better rulers than the Christians were. I would have rather lived under the former for a variety of reasons--most notably in religious terms, the Tolerance Tax, as opposed to burning at the stake, for being of a different Abrahamic Religion. All the really nice Spanish Architecture is in the southern regions too, so nice in fact that the Christians didn't destroy [most of] them when they finally had them within their grasp.

Siddhartha
02-06-04, 05:11 PM
I must give the Muslim/Arabs credit where it is due. Recently the English TV presenter Kilroy caused controversy by asking "What have the Arabs ever given us?".

Um, how about writing, numbers and astronomy... :rolleyes:

guthrie
02-06-04, 05:11 PM
Which one I would ratehr live under would depend when we're talking about. At different times, various parts of the Muslim worls and the christian european world were progressive in the sense we would recognise today. In the 13th/ 14th centuries, after teh transmission and diffusion of the greek phislophers works etc, western europe was quite a good place (unlesss you were a jew in the wrong place at the wrong time.) And concommitantly, there were times when it was a bad idea to be in North Africa or indeed Turkey, eg when the ottoman empire was around.

Pollux V
02-06-04, 05:21 PM
"Which one I would ratehr live under would depend when we're talking about."

True, but I think things really started to go to hell when the British procured the Middle East at the end of WW1.


western europe was quite a good place (unlesss you were a jew in the wrong place at the wrong time.)

Up until the Mongol's sacked it, I would have picked Baghdad as my preferred place of residence. And I believe that event happened in the mid fourteenth century, correct me if I'm wrong. After that my knowledge is a bit vague, I don't really know where I'd rather live because it seemed like everywhere really sucked. I'd probably pick an isolated farm somewhere in Castile or Leon, maybe Valencia. What can I say--I like Spain's climate. Looks comfy. I'd stay the hell away from the cities, though.

Undecided
02-06-04, 09:10 PM
Western Europe does owe it's secular humanist renaissance to the preservation of Greek documents by the Arabs. Western culture owes a lot to the Arabs and visa versa.

Proud_Muslim
02-07-04, 06:34 AM
Amazing! I enjoy learning about ancient times and Moorish Spain is one of the more beautiful places I have read about. We owe much our western wisdom to the Muslims who preserved it. Thank you for putting this here.

Your welcome, I just came back from there, it is was breath-taking, As an Arab and Muslim, I came back to Al Andalus ( Spain ) after 511 years absence, it was very moving, I will never forget this moment when my eyes first saw Al Hambra palace....I cried....it was as if someone pulled me 5 centuries back into history...it was so touching.

Proud_Muslim
02-07-04, 06:49 AM
[QUOTE=guthrie]King orfa? You got a link for that?

It was king offa, spelling mistake...yes I have a link about that:

Gold Coin Of King Offa

King Offa of Mercia (757-96CE) was the most powerful and successful of all the Mercian kings. He dominated England, and his power was acknowledged on the Continent by the great Charlemagne himself.

Offa also made a significant contribution to the English coinage when he introduced his silver penny these coins were probably minted in Cantebury and influenced the design of english coins for many centuries. When a hoard of some 300 coins were found during excavations for a new school in 1877 more than 30 of the coins came from the ancient Tamworth mint.

One of the famous coins of King Offa is the gold coin with Arabic inscription in Kûfic script. Below is the description of coin.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/offa.GIF

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/offa.html


Of course, you dont mention that the Moors invaded spain in order to take it over and then build their civilisation.

The Myth of the Muslim Conquest of Spain

http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/andalusia.html

thefountainhed
02-07-04, 07:29 AM
syrian:

when cordoba fell, spain was a power.

Proud_Muslim
02-07-04, 08:39 AM
When Cordoba fell in 1236 AD, there was no united Spanish kingdom as such, but waring factions.

thefountainhed
02-07-04, 08:46 AM
sorry, i meanr granada.

Pollux V
02-07-04, 11:36 AM
Western Europe does owe it's secular humanist renaissance to the preservation of Greek documents by the Arabs. Western culture owes a lot to the Arabs and visa versa.

True. Where would the Arabs be without the Greeks?

everneo
02-07-04, 12:01 PM
As an Arab and Muslim, I came back to Al Andalus ( Spain ) after 511 years absence, it was very moving, I will never forget this moment when my eyes first saw Al Hambra palace....I cried....it was as if someone pulled me 5 centuries back into history...it was so touching.
When you were back home (britain?) didn't you cry as if someone pushed you 5 centuries ahead..?!

Proud_Muslim
02-07-04, 12:07 PM
True. Where would the Arabs be without the Greeks?

And where would you be without the Arabs ??? :rolleyes:

Proud_Muslim
02-07-04, 12:10 PM
When you were back home (britain?) didn't you cry as if someone pushed you 5 centuries ahead..?!

No because it was Friday night and I saw disgusting drunken people vomiting in the streets, I saw semi naked girls laying on the ground, I saw 'civilized free liberal' westerners fighting with broken glasses...I felt sick, I wished to go back to Spain.

:mad:

guthrie
02-07-04, 01:30 PM
HHm, interesting, i didnt know coinage had travelled that far north.
As for spain, an invasion is an invasion, doesnt matter much about how many died. You forgot the further incursions into France.

guthrie
02-07-04, 01:34 PM
Well, if disgusting liberal britain is too much for you, go back to spain.

Undecided
02-07-04, 01:55 PM
True. Where would the Arabs be without the Greeks?

Like PM said, where the hell would we be with the Arabs? We owe classical thought like secular humanism to the Arabs, smart enough to keep the Greeks philosophies. Not only that they were the one's who brought us numerals, making psychics, and the enlightenment possible. We owe quite a bit to the Arabs.

guthrie
02-07-04, 05:13 PM
Indeed, and where would we be without the rennaissance and teh industrial revolution. though that isnt the purpose of htis thread, so, the arabs were pretty good, thanks a lot to them.

Proud_Muslim
02-08-04, 03:31 AM
HHm, interesting, i didnt know coinage had travelled that far north.
As for spain, an invasion is an invasion, doesnt matter much about how many died. You forgot the further incursions into France.

You see, you just post general statements, I dont think these statements are helpful in any constructive debate.

Proud_Muslim
02-08-04, 03:33 AM
Well, if disgusting liberal britain is too much for you, go back to spain.

I described some aspects of the modern western life style, everyon's question was meant to make fun of my heritage, so I gave him something from his own ENLIGHTED society !! :rolleyes:

everneo
02-08-04, 04:02 AM
everyon's question was meant to make fun of my heritage, so I gave him something from his own ENLIGHTED society !!
you refer to me.? i was not making fun of any heritage. i find you frozen in time. please try to come out of it.

Proud_Muslim
02-08-04, 04:24 AM
Well, I find you liquidated in time, please try to hold your pieces together.

HE WHO CANT COMPREHEND THE HISTORY, WILL NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE PRESENT AND WILL FAILL TO PREDICT THE FUTURE.

Siddhartha
02-08-04, 07:34 AM
No because it was Friday night and I saw disgusting drunken people vomiting in the streets, I saw semi naked girls laying on the ground, I saw 'civilized free liberal' westerners fighting with broken glasses...I felt sick, I wished to go back to Spain.

:mad:While I don't agree with that behaviour myself, I am glad that if I did wish to engage in same, I would be able to.

Candide
02-08-04, 08:12 AM
No because it was Friday night and I saw disgusting drunken people vomiting in the streets, I saw semi naked girls laying on the ground, I saw 'civilized free liberal' westerners fighting with broken glasses...I felt sick, I wished to go back to Spain.

That would be enough to convert me to Islam. I am British, white and not-particularly-religious but I very much sympathise with the sentiments of Muslims and their reactions to "tit-at-the-Superbowl" Western society.

guthrie, I am very disappointed with your post, I thought you were needlessly very rude. It is quite possible you too agree with the sentiments of Proud Muslim but your thoughts are too clouded by religious prejudice to admit it.

I am not convinced Islam, or any kind of blind faith, offers a better way, but is Spain really better? Perhaps I should emigrate!

Pollux V
02-08-04, 08:15 AM
Like PM said, where the hell would we be with the Arabs? We owe classical thought like secular humanism to the Arabs, smart enough to keep the Greeks philosophies. Not only that they were the one's who brought us numerals, making psychics, and the enlightenment possible. We owe quite a bit to the Arabs.

Yes, exactly. I'm not trying to degrade their position. I'm just trying to give credit where credit is due. They had some help from the Greeks, and combined with many other things the work they did helped to preserve civilization. This happened while my ancestors were busy being exterminated in pogroms. They did do a great deal and I have great respect for them. Europeans spent the whole of the Dark Ages content at believing the Muslims were inferior, and now, with the help of a magnifying glass it's quite easy to see that the opposite was true. Now the case is different. Monarchies and dictatorships and western globalization (starting in the 16th century) have left almost all of the Muslim world in poverty and despair. If it wasn't for their oil, they'd just be another set of third world countries, like South or Latin America, like Eastern Europe, like most, maybe all, of Africa.

Proud_Muslim
02-08-04, 09:25 AM
I am not convinced Islam, or any kind of blind faith, offers a better way, but is Spain really better? Perhaps I should emigrate!

Well, Islam turned Spain into the most advanced county in the middle ages, Islam is Islam, it never change because it is the engine for change.

Islam is not blind faith, because faith alone wont do in Islam..so perhaps you ought to read more about Islam and its teachings to know that it is not build on blind faith but on reason and logic.

Proud_Muslim
02-08-04, 09:29 AM
Monarchies and dictatorships and western globalization (starting in the 16th century) have left almost all of the Muslim world in poverty and despair. If it wasn't for their oil, they'd just be another set of third world countries, like South or Latin America, like Eastern Europe, like most, maybe all, of Africa.

I disagree about the oil issue, remember, the oil was discovered in the 1930s only.

We survived for centuries before the oil and we will manage to do so after the oil, after all, we, the people of the Middle East, get nothing from our oil, it all goes into either the pockets of our western-supported dictators or sent back to you in return for weapons.

We built magnificent civilization in Spain WITHOUT the oil, we built it with ISLAM, Islam and only Islam is our motivation and engine for development and progress.

Candide
02-08-04, 12:09 PM
do you think your idea of magnificent Muslim Spain is a Jewish urban legend?

"…The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam.”.

[Bernard Lewis. "The Pro-Islamic Jews," Judaism, (Fall 1968), p. 401.]



Well, Islam turned Spain into the most advanced county in the middle ages, Islam is Islam, it never change because it is the engine for change.

Islam is not blind faith, because faith alone wont do in Islam..so perhaps you ought to read more about Islam and its teachings to know that it is not build on blind faith but on reason and logic.

Did Islam move into Spain because Islam was strong and united or because Europe was weak and falling apart? Surely the first reason Islam got a foothold in Spain was because a Muslim army beat a Visigoth army on the battlefield. This required very traditional, brutal, uncivilised violence. Then the Muslims subjected non-muslims to discriminatory taxes and second class people status in their own lands. Is that advanced? Not if you believe in modern conceptions of human rights. If Muslim Spain was advanced one may also ask how did it come to fall? The first reason Islam lost Spain is that a Muslim army got beaten on the battlefield by a French army, one that must have been backed-up by a more advanced (united, strong) society than the Muslim Spanish at that time.

Is reason and logic a product of Islam or of a society's tolerance of science that Islam might or might not have? Scholars in the Islamic world did make discoveries in every area of science - in part because of what they had learned from the Hellenists. But Islamic peoples could not use their scientific learning to the full benefit of Islamic society because the laws of Islam are built on blind faith, not evidence. The caliphates and sultans ignored or destroyed scientific knowledge and institutions; such as relating to human biology (a Syrian independently discovered the heart-pump circulation of the blood hundreds of years before Europe but this did not influence Muslim medical practice, nor did Europeans hear of the work until recently) and astronomical observatories (the last Muslim observatory was destroyed in Instanbul). There is reason and logic in the Islamic world, in that humans are capable of reason and logic, but to say the actual institutions of Islamic society, such as Sharia law, uses reason and logic is a fallacy. Sharia law, its perenial ignorance of human nature and hatred of scientific institutions, relies on blind faith. If it didn't it would blow away with the sands of hot Arabian winds.

Yes, Islamic scholars maintained teachings of the Greeks and passed them on to Italians of renaissance Europe who passed them on via German printing press, the French revolutionaries and the British Empire to us. This only serves to show they like those who followed them were a conduit through which scientific knowledge could flow. It doesn't say Islam is "scientific" as much as it doesn't say christianity is "scientific". Science is science, religion is religion.

Proud_Muslim
02-08-04, 12:52 PM
do you think your idea of magnificent Muslim Spain is a Jewish urban legend?

"…The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam.”.



I dont accept this quote because it is from famous biased anti muslim ORIENTALIST...quote me from fair unbiased sources, thank you.


Did Islam move into Spain because Islam was strong and united or because Europe was weak and falling apart? Surely the first reason Islam got a foothold in Spain was because a Muslim army beat a Visigoth army on the battlefield. This required very traditional, brutal, uncivilised violence. Then the Muslims subjected non-muslims to discriminatory taxes and second class people status in their own lands.

This is pure blatant nonesense...here is something you did not read about in the anti muslim hate sites from where you are COPYING AND PASTING:

When looking at the Muslim expansion in Spain one is struck by its speed, its generally peaceful aspect and civilizational component. It took the Muslims less than three years (from 711 to 714) and one battle (at Guadalete, near Cadiz) to spread throughout the whole of Spain. In contrast to this, it took the Prophet Muhammad twenty-two years (from 610 to 632) and nineteen expeditions to get Arabia to accept Islam. This difference in both time and effort, to gain Arabia and Spain to Islam, is due to theological affinities as well as socio-cultural and politico-economical reasons which appealed to the Spaniards.

Pre-Islamic Arabia was predominantly polytheist, with small Jewish and Christian communities. There, Islam had to fight against a 'world without law' (Jahiliyya) to make monotheism prevail. Pre-Islamic Spain was Christian with important Jewish communities. This difference, according to Roger Garaudy, not only explains the speed of the expansion, but also its type.

[B]W. Montgomery Watt in A History of Islamic Spain states:

''It is a common misapprehension that the holy war meant that the Muslims gave their opponents a choice "between Islam and the sword". This was sometimes the case, but only when the opponents were polytheist and idol-worshippers. For Jews, Christians and other "People of the Book", that is, monotheists with written scriptures - a phrase that was very liberally interpreted - there was a third possibility, they might become a "protected group", paying a tax or tribute to the Muslims but enjoying internal autonomy''

Besides, in the Iberian Peninsula there raged a civil war between Trinitarian Christians, who accepted the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, and Arian Christians, who saw Jesus not as God but as a Prophet inspired by God. The Council of Nicea in 325, invoked by the emperor Constantine in order to unify ideologically his empire, imposed the dogma of Trinity and condemned the teachings of Anus of Alexandria who refused these dogmas. The conflict erupted, when in 709, the Trinitarian Christians declared Roderick as king. The archbishop of Seville opposed him and the inhabitants of present Andalusia (Bétique) revolted against his rule. When Roderick invaded Andalusia, the inhabitant of the latter looked south help. The able Berber General Tariq ibn Ziyad crossed to Algeciras and a battle in Guadalete, near Cadiz took place. The Bishop of Seville as well as that of Toledo rallied to the Muslim army.

The peasants had a very difficult time, were ill-treated and reduced to the status of slaves. Poverty, corruption, ignorance and instability were the order of the day. Even the free men felt themselves to be underprivileged. There was much discontent, and many ordinary people looked on the Muslims as liberators and gave them all the assistance they could. The Jews who have been persecuted for a long time under the Visigoth rule (e.g. a special decree in 694 enslaved all those who did not accept baptism), opened the gates of many cities. So deep and widespread was the satisfaction given to all classes that during the whole of the eight century there was not a single revolt of the subjects.

It is difficult to understand how a small army could cross the whole of Spain in less than three years if one imagines a military invasion. The historian Dozy, in Histoire des Musulmans d'Espagne, describes the event as 'a good thing for Spain' which produced an important social revolution, setting the country free from the chains it was groaning under for centuries. Taxes were much less compared to those imposed by previous governments. The Muslims introduced land reforms by taking land from the rich and distributing it equally among serf-peasants and slaves. The new owners worked it with zeal. Commerce was liberated from the limitations and high taxes that caused its demise. Slaves could set themselves free in return for a fair compensation, something which threw in new energies. All these measures, says Dozy, created a state of well-being which was the reason behind the welcoming of the Muslims.

The great Spanish writer Blasco Ibanez in Dans l'ombrc de la cathédrale talks about a 'civilizational expedition' coming from the south rather than a conquest. To Ibanez, it was not an invasion imposing itself by arms, it was a new society whose vigorous roots were sprouting from everywhere. Describing the conquering Muslims, he says: 'The principle of freedom of conscience, cornerstone of the greatness of nations, was dear to them. In the cities they ruled, they accepted the church of the Christian and the synagogue of the Jew.'

History, therefore makes it clear that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through Spain and forcing Islam at the point of the sword is an absurd myth. The expansion of Islam in Spain was not a military conquest, but a liberation.



Is that advanced? Not if you believe in modern conceptions of human rights.

Isn't absurd to apply the modern concepts of human rights to the 7th century ??? :rolleyes:


If Muslim Spain was advanced one may also ask how did it come to fall? The first reason Islam lost Spain is that a Muslim army got beaten on the battlefield by a French army, one that must have been backed-up by a more advanced (united, strong) society than the Muslim Spanish at that time.

Another inaccurate historical fact, the Muslims lost to the French 700 YEARS BEFORE THE FALL OF GRANADA.......get your facts right.

Karen Armstrong is good FAIR American Historian, why you dont read something from her books about Islam ????

guthrie
02-08-04, 02:55 PM
Hey, candide, your new here, welcome.

Anyway, as for small armies crossing all of Spain, we have the examples of the normans in england conquering the country whilst outnumbered 100's to one, and Hannibal in Italy for someone who ran around for years without much trouble. See, according to what youve posted, people didnt accept islam into Spain because it was clearly the one true way to peace happiness and enlightenment, they did it because they wanted to use the Moslems for their own aims, ie victory of their religiouos way and freedom from oppression. So, what did happen to all these christians?

Candide
02-08-04, 03:24 PM
When looking at the Muslim expansion in Spain one is struck by its speed, its generally peaceful aspect and civilizational component. It took the Muslims less than three years (from 711 to 714) and one battle (at Guadalete, near Cadiz) to spread throughout the whole of Spain. In contrast to this, it took the Prophet Muhammad twenty-two years (from 610 to 632) and nineteen expeditions to get Arabia to accept Islam. This difference in both time and effort, to gain Arabia and Spain to Islam, is due to theological affinities as well as socio-cultural and politico-economical reasons which appealed to the Spaniards.

If that is the case what's Islam got to do with it? Did the advances you are claiming have more to do with existing Spanish pracitices and how they mixed with imported Islam, or how receptive the people were to Islam? If the latter, explain the massacre of the Jews in 1066? Why were non-muslims not equal to Muslims under sharia law? If we're talking about an advanced society we're not talking about an advanced liberal one.



Pre-Islamic Arabia was predominantly polytheist, with small Jewish and Christian communities. There, Islam had to fight against a 'world without law' (Jahiliyya) to make monotheism prevail. Pre-Islamic Spain was Christian with important Jewish communities. This difference, according to Roger Garaudy, not only explains the speed of the expansion, but also its type.

The Islamic "invaders" (as they were then to the pre-existing communities) could give promises to the native communities that they would not be physically harmed. For a lot of the time they were'nt. Sometimes they were. But even in peacetime weren't non-muslims still obliged to pay jiyza (poll-tax) and be subjected to other restrictions according to Sharia law? If this is a Magnificent Age, it is not particularly magnificent for non-muslims, and those who don't believe blind faith in religious edicts is a safe, just, moral and decent way to run the world.

You quote: ''It is a common misapprehension that the holy war meant that the Muslims gave their opponents a choice "between Islam and the sword". This was sometimes the case, but only when the opponents were polytheist and idol-worshippers. For Jews, Christians and other "People of the Book", that is, monotheists with written scriptures - a phrase that was very liberally interpreted - there was a third possibility, they might become a "protected group", paying a tax or tribute to the Muslims but enjoying internal autonomy'" [W. Montgomery Watt]

That's a good euphemism for second class citizen. Should not all religious groups have the same rights to their humanity and spiritual needs? This Islamic line of thought - Jews and Christians as a "protected group" - suggests that Jew and Christians will "see the light" eventually, so let's keep them alive. This hasn't happened yet - why do some Mulisms still stick with the idea of a two tier state and think that Muslim Spain which was two-tiered was a Magnificent place? Also, atheists are not given a mention in this quote. Did they have the rights Muslism did in Muslim Spain? Is it my understanding they had none and were officially banned from Islamic lands on pain of cold steel.



Besides, in the Iberian Peninsula there raged a civil war between Trinitarian Christians, who accepted the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, and Arian Christians, who saw Jesus not as God but as a Prophet inspired by God. The Council of Nicea in 325, invoked by the emperor Constantine in order to unify ideologically his empire, imposed the dogma of Trinity and condemned the teachings of Anus of Alexandria who refused these dogmas. The conflict erupted, when in 709, the Trinitarian Christians declared Roderick as king. The archbishop of Seville opposed him and the inhabitants of present Andalusia (Bétique) revolted against his rule. When Roderick invaded Andalusia, the inhabitant of the latter looked south help. The able Berber General Tariq ibn Ziyad crossed to Algeciras and a battle in Guadalete, near Cadiz took place. The Bishop of Seville as well as that of Toledo rallied to the Muslim army.

The Muslims were not more peaceful than average. They were human. In order to conquer more of the Spanish peninsular the Muslims had to fight. In 717 they had a set-back against the Visigoths and lost a part of north Spain in the battle of Covadonga. In time Muslims raided into France, lost a battle at Poitiers to Charles Martel's Franks. Spanish Saracens even mauraded as far as modern-day Switzerland (but could not establish significant presence outside Spain). Almoravid Conquests in Southern Spain 1086 shows further Islamic warfare. This Muslim Spanish civilization was as violent to outsiders as most others are. It was also often violent to those within who were not Muslim.



The peasants had a very difficult time, were ill-treated and reduced to the status of slaves. Poverty, corruption, ignorance and instability were the order of the day. Even the free men felt themselves to be underprivileged. There was much discontent, and many ordinary people looked on the Muslims as liberators and gave them all the assistance they could. The Jews who have been persecuted for a long time under the Visigoth rule (e.g. a special decree in 694 enslaved all those who did not accept baptism), opened the gates of many cities. So deep and widespread was the satisfaction given to all classes that during the whole of the eight century there was not a single revolt of the subjects.

It is difficult to understand how a small army could cross the whole of Spain in less than three years if one imagines a military invasion. The historian Dozy, in Histoire des Musulmans d'Espagne, describes the event as 'a good thing for Spain' which produced an important social revolution, setting the country free from the chains it was groaning under for centuries. Taxes were much less compared to those imposed by previous governments. The Muslims introduced land reforms by taking land from the rich and distributing it equally among serf-peasants and slaves. The new owners worked it with zeal. Commerce was liberated from the limitations and high taxes that caused its demise. Slaves could set themselves free in return for a fair compensation, something which threw in new energies. All these measures, says Dozy, created a state of well-being which was the reason behind the welcoming of the Muslims.

In 711 it may well have been better overall for the Spanish population to have big well organised Islamic rule for a few hundred years and a large area of order than the alternative - more constant anarchy between lots of small warrior families interested in their own glory, power and wealth, or that of their religious affliations. The Muslims built institutions (educational, trade, amenities, public order) for their communities and urbanized, creating larger cities. But this progress does not mean the advantage Islam had in the years after 711 - in terms of quality of life for most Spanish people - would last for ever; or that this system would be immune to greed, corruption and abuse from within.

After 1000 I understand the Muslim government collapsed and the Islamic peninsular split into separate Muslim units and independent cities; a mosaic of competing interests as it had been before. That's not to wash over the bad points of Muslim Spain in the earlier years. For nearly 300 years unification may have been better than the more anarchical alternative but that does not mean that Islamic Spain gave equal opportunity to men and women, muslims and non-muslims. Just that the alternatives in the world at the time were more backward in comparison. Perhaps that explains the lack of initial revolt - people were glad of order and peace and willing to give something else a shot. That and the fact they'd be killed or hand parts of their bodies chopped off if they stepped out of line. (Punishment occurs in all societies).


The great Spanish writer Blasco Ibanez in Dans l'ombrc de la cathédrale talks about a 'civilizational expedition' coming from the south rather than a conquest. To Ibanez, it was not an invasion imposing itself by arms, it was a new society whose vigorous roots were sprouting from everywhere. Describing the conquering Muslims, he says: 'The principle of freedom of conscience, cornerstone of the greatness of nations, was dear to them. In the cities they ruled, they accepted the church of the Christian and the synagogue of the Jew.'

I agree it was a chapter in the civilization of at least one part of the world. But it's not the whole book. The influences of this period remain in the subsequent chapters of history but they have been built on with other ideas to make life today a different story for people in Spain. A more freerer one, even if this stage in their history is not the final chapter either, and that Islamic commentary could not be an influence in its future evolution.



History, therefore makes it clear that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through Spain and forcing Islam at the point of the sword is an absurd myth. The expansion of Islam in Spain was not a military conquest, but a liberation.

It is going to the other extreme to call it a liberation, but it is too simplistic to say that the Muslims met united resistence. From the beginning with the alliance with "infidel" Andalusia and the Christian Archbishop of Serville the Islamic rulers clearly knew how to play of competing interests against each other to their own advantage. This is true of successful leaders generally.



Another inaccurate historical fact, the Muslims lost to the French 700 YEARS BEFORE THE FALL OF GRANADA.......get your facts right.

I was thinking of "turning points". By saying they "lost Spain" to French was sloppy, ignorant language. In can be said that when the Muslims failed to further conquest into France they lost their chance to conquer and rule other parts of Europe. The Battle of Poitiers, 732, was a massive assymetrical defeat. Arab army, which had razed churches and pillaged towns on route to the fight, commanded by kind Abderrahman, reportedly lost 300'000 men to Charles Martel's Franks who lost 1'500. Henceforth the Muslims were relegated to nothing more than a tenuous foothold on a mediterranean peninsular. That eventually did succumb to forces from the north.


In all, I believe you are probably right that the Muslim conquest of Spain was quite productive. But to say it is a time to repeat in today's world would be to throw away the gains we have made on the civilization of that era, in terms of equal rights for men, women, and people of religion. In addition to a society in which science is allowed to flourish and people can think independently of political and religious authorities without getting stoned or burnt at the stake.

Proud_Muslim
02-08-04, 04:05 PM
If that is the case what's Islam got to do with it? Did the advances you are claiming have more to do with existing Spanish pracitices and how they mixed with imported Islam, or how receptive the people were to Islam? If the latter, explain the massacre of the Jews in 1066?

You are very confused, the Islamic FATH ( as we call it in Arabic ) of Spain took place in 711-714 AD, what that has to do with what happened to the jews in 1066 ?????????

Beside, the Spanish accepted Islam because it liberated them from the slavery of the church and the morach.

as to the Jews, there was NO jews in Spain when Muslims entered it, it is the Muslims who allowed the jews to come and live under their rule in Spain in complete safety after Europe started persecuting them, the muslims offered them shelter and safe living.

As to the so called Masscare of the jews in 1066, there was a civil war and the jews were flaming this war....Who better to talk about this ''massacre'' and WHY it happened but the JEWS themselves ??

''Unfortunately, upon Samuel's death (1055), the Jewish community of Granada began a steep decline which reached a horrible climax in 1066. Leading the community was Samuel's son, Joseph, who lacked his father's humility. Though well educated and groomed, he was ostentatious and arrogant. He soon alienated the ruling Berbers as well as the Arab masses. On a Shabbat in 1066, Joseph's palace was stormed and he was murdered, crucified on a cross. The entire Jewish community came under the riotous siege (December 30th) resulting in 4,000 deaths and the destruction of most property. Incredibly, the community quickly recovered, only to fall again, this time at the hands of the Almoravids in 1090. Later, under the rule of the Almohads regime (1148-1212), only Jews who had converted to Christianity were allowed to live in the city. Jews returned to the city when Granada was ruled by the Naserite dynasty (1232-1492). On March 31, 1492, the saga of the Jews of Granada came to a crushing conclusion, when Ferdinand and Isabelle signed the edict of expulsion in the "City of the Jews."

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/vjw/Granada.html

Enjoy !! :rolleyes:


Why were non-muslims not equal to Muslims under sharia law? If we're talking about an advanced society we're not talking about an advanced liberal one.

Sharia laws apply ONLY on Muslims, non muslims can have their own laws.


The Islamic "invaders" (as they were then to the pre-existing communities) could give promises to the native communities that they would not be physically harmed. For a lot of the time they were'nt. Sometimes they were. But even in peacetime weren't non-muslims still obliged to pay jiyza (poll-tax) and be subjected to other restrictions according to Sharia law?

Non Muslims pay Jizya because under sharia law they are NOT required to go to the army and fight and die...it is US the Muslims who have to do while non muslims can stay SAFE at home and pay for us to fight and protect them.

Beside, the jizya is very small amount ( 0.5 % ) to what Muslims have to pay, the ZAKAT ( 2.5 % ) so basiclly, the non muslims are having better deal than muslims because they pay less and stay home, we pay more and we go to the army to get killed !!!


If this is a Magnificent Age, it is not particularly magnificent for non-muslims, and those who don't believe blind faith in religious edicts is a safe, just, moral and decent way to run the world.

It was magnificent after all, otherwise how come so many jews found refugee in MUSLIM SPAIN ??

How come so many christians converted to Islam without force or any trouble ?? how come history books ( even the biased orientalist ones ) dont tell us about major revoults by non muslims against Muslims ??????


That's a good euphemism for second class citizen. Should not all religious groups have the same rights to their humanity and spiritual needs?

Yes, But this is NOW, and NOT 1300 years ago...get real, you cant apply the logic of the 21th century on the logic of the 7th century....it is asburd.


This Islamic line of thought - Jews and Christians as a "protected group" - suggests that Jew and Christians will "see the light" eventually, so let's keep them alive.

This is utter nonesense, how about others who are not jews and christians, will they not might see the light as well ???? :rolleyes:


Also, atheists are not given a mention in this quote. Did they have the rights Muslism did in Muslim Spain? Is it my understanding they had none and were officially banned from Islamic lands on pain of cold steel.

Where is your proof ??????


This Muslim Spanish civilization was as violent to outsiders as most others are. It was also often violent to those within who were not Muslim.

I dont accept general statements and hearsay without any FAIR UNBIASED evidence....orientalist nonesense has only one place, the pin.


For nearly 300 years unification may have been better than the more anarchical alternative but that does not mean that Islamic Spain gave equal opportunity to men and women, muslims and non-muslims.

By the standards of THAT ERA, Muslims in Spain were the Most tolerant in the world, why we dont compare them with what the barbaric christian cursaders did when they invaded the Islamic orient ?????


I agree it was a chapter in the civilization of at least one part of the world. But it's not the whole book. The influences of this period remain in the subsequent chapters of history but they have been built on with other ideas to make life today a different story for people in Spain. A more freerer one, even if this stage in their history is not the final chapter either, and that Islamic commentary could not be an influence in its future evolution.

Islam laid down the foundations of your own renaissance, it gave you the numbers you are using now, it gave you the concept ZERO which without it, you wont be able to use your PC..etc....these are FACTS you can never ever deny to rubbish no matter how much copy and paste you do.


I was thinking of "turning points". By saying they "lost Spain" to French was sloppy, ignorant language. In can be said that when the Muslims failed to further conquest into France they lost their chance to conquer and rule other parts of Europe. The Battle of Poitiers, 732, was a massive assymetrical defeat. Arab army, which had razed churches and pillaged towns on route to the fight,

BULLSHIT, the arab armies did not razed churches and pillaged towns, where is your proof ???? again, orientalist BULL has only one place, the PIN.


commanded by kind Abderrahman, reportedly lost 300'000 men to Charles Martel's Franks who lost 1'500. Henceforth the Muslims were relegated to nothing more than a tenuous foothold on a mediterranean peninsular. That eventually did succumb to forces from the north.

You are so funny, so ABSURD.... 300,000 men !!! LOOOOOOOOOL the whole Muslim army did not excede 100,000 fighters !!!

Here is Muslim source in Arabic ( and here is a link for Arabic-English translation : http://arabicdictionaries.com/ )

http://www.islamonline.net/Arabic/history/1422/11/article17.shtml

You are so funny with this 300,000 Muslims killed for 1500 French !!


In all, I believe you are probably right that the Muslim conquest of Spain was quite productive. But to say it is a time to repeat in today's world would be to throw away the gains we have made on the civilization of that era, in terms of equal rights for men, women, and people of religion.

I did not say to repeat this FATH, it is your guys the new crusaders who are repeating history, otherwise what the hell you are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq ????????????????

Pollux V
02-08-04, 05:14 PM
I disagree about the oil issue, remember, the oil was discovered in the 1930s only.

Yes, but Muslim civilization did not start its decline then. I would put the date somewhere in the fifteenth or sixteenth century.


We survived for centuries before the oil and we will manage to do so after the oil, after all, we, the people of the Middle East, get nothing from our oil, it all goes into either the pockets of our western-supported dictators or sent back to you in return for weapons.

You make a good point. Islam did survive, but for the latter half of its history that's really all it did do. It left civilization's limelight. Civilization's centers were no longer Baghdad or Cordova, but London and Paris. I guess I'm saying that the "Islamic Empire" wasn't living up to its past, and it still isn't. The Middle East is a world liability instead of a world center. I know, at least, that it has great potential to regain its throne, what better example than its history to prove my hypothesis, but for now it is a backward region controlled by Texan oil tycoons.

And, look: while I am part of the country that is using the Middle East's blood to manufacture weapons for their consumption, I am not actually manufacturing these weapons, nor am I consciously supporting their manufacturers. If I saw a realistic way to act against their activities, I would openly participate in it. I'd just like to make that clear.

Also, if I were religious, and had the choice of which religion to be a part of, I'd be a Muslim.

Proud_Muslim
02-09-04, 03:26 PM
You make a good point. Islam did survive, but for the latter half of its history that's really all it did do. It left civilization's limelight. Civilization's centers were no longer Baghdad or Cordova, but London and Paris. I guess I'm saying that the "Islamic Empire" wasn't living up to its past, and it still isn't.

Any civilization has a circule, in fact, the Muslim founder of Sociology, IBN KHALDON wrote that every civilization has 3 stages: birth, youth and power and then it dies down.

Since the 16th century, the Ottoman Empire took the duty of defending the muslims from the growing danger coming from the Spanish, the English, the French, the portugese and the dutch...there was no time for scientific developments, this has militarized the entire muslim world.


The Middle East is a world liability instead of a world center.

indeed, everyone come here to sort out their interests, the soviets before and now the Americans, god know who is next.

You know I wish we had no oil at all, I am sure we would have been better off without it.


I know, at least, that it has great potential to regain its throne, what better example than its history to prove my hypothesis, but for now it is a backward region controlled by Texan oil tycoons.

I agree, in fact, the oil has brought us nothing but misery.


Also, if I were religious, and had the choice of which religion to be a part of, I'd be a Muslim.

Thank you, very encouraging to hear that...Allah bless you.

Pollux V
02-09-04, 05:45 PM
Since the 16th century, the Ottoman Empire took the duty of defending the muslims from the growing danger coming from the Spanish, the English, the French, the portugese and the dutch...there was no time for scientific developments, this has militarized the entire muslim world.

I would think that militiarization would spur on scientific developments. Look at what World War 1 did to warfare.


god know who is next.

The Chinese...


You know I wish we had no oil at all, I am sure we would have been better off without it.

Oil's burden won't be on the Middle East's shoulders for much longer. Give it a few decades. And I agree with you--even if the Middle East were still stricken with poverty, even if it were still held by tyrants, at least it would be in its own hands, which is the most minimum request a people can make, that their [real] ruler, in whatever form, be a native of the region he or she controls.


Allah bless you.

For the moment his attention, however infinite, could be better spent elsewhere.

Vienna
02-10-04, 05:35 AM
We built magnificent civilization in Spain WITHOUT the oil, we built it with ISLAM, Islam and only Islam is our motivation and engine for development and progress.
So why didn't muslims use ISLAM to build the same magnificent civilizations in the MIDDLE EAST?????

If Islam is your motivation and engine for development and progress - why hasn't anything ISLAMIC developed or progressed?

Vienna
02-10-04, 05:44 AM
No because it was Friday night and I saw disgusting drunken people vomiting in the streets, I saw semi naked girls laying on the ground, I saw 'civilized free liberal' westerners fighting with broken glasses...I felt sick,

I wished to go back to Spain.

:mad:
So what's stopping you???

Proud_Muslim
02-10-04, 06:25 AM
So why didn't muslims use ISLAM to build the same magnificent civilizations in the MIDDLE EAST?????

They did, for centuries DAMASCUS AND BAGHDAD were the centers of the world.


If Islam is your motivation and engine for development and progress -why hasn't anything ISLAMIC developed or progressed?

Islam indeed activate and developed many muslim states, look at Malaysia for example, it is one of the most advanced 15 countires in the world and it is MUSLIM.

Look at Pakistan, they produce their own fighter jets and nuclear submarine there...and many more examples.

Proud_Muslim
02-10-04, 06:26 AM
So what's stopping you???

MONEY.

:mad:

joe smith
02-12-04, 10:08 AM
re Irish and muslim links. Many Irish were transported as slaves to various islamic countries. I find it very difficult to believe there were any trading links.

RonVolk
02-12-04, 07:10 PM
re Irish and muslim links. Many Irish were transported as slaves to various islamic countries. I find it very difficult to believe there were any trading links.

Doesn't slave transport imply trade? Or was there a third party involved? Your post is confusing me or its sense having not as for me stupid be really.

SwedishFish
02-13-04, 01:09 AM
the art and architecture in spain are so arab influenced, you'd never know it was so catholic just by looking at it. even the churches and synoguoges look like mosques with all their intricate islamic ornamentation. i remember spending the afternoon in a jewish temple disguised to look like a mosque because you weren't allowed to be a jew at the time it was built. anyway, i think the islamic inspiration is beautiful.

thefountainhed
02-13-04, 12:06 PM
reportedly lost 300'000 men to Charles Martel's Franks who lost 1'500

A myth based on a single "eye-witness" account-- St. Denis or something like that. It is not historically accurate, and the numbers are preposterous. In any case, you people need to distinguish between Islam, muslims, arabs, moors, etc.

joe smith
02-13-04, 07:20 PM
It was never a trade Ron, raiding is not trading, they were barbary pirates.

RonVolk
02-13-04, 08:40 PM
What years are we talking about? I thought the Vikings were raiding Ireland pretty heavy till they converted to Christianity. Got any sources?

On a side note, Barbary Pirates! The same (location? culture?) that extorted the United States when it was in its infantcy?

Kunax
02-14-04, 05:40 AM
did not want to reply to Joe's first post, but since you bring up Vikings RonVolk i reply now.

here is a link to some of the Viking trade and raiding routes http://hjem.get2net.dk/fyrkat/english/index.htm

Proud_Muslim
02-15-04, 08:33 AM
It was never a trade Ron, raiding is not trading, they were barbary pirates.

This is not true, where is your proof ?

Proud_Muslim
02-15-04, 08:48 AM
Andalusian Reflections

In the 10th century C.E, Hroswitha—Saxon princess and earliest known German poetess—wrote of Cordoba, the caliphal capital of al-Andalus, that it was: “the ornament of the world.” In the Age of Hroswitha, Islam and civilization were synonymous. The Abode of Islam had a brilliant beacon in the east: Sunni Persia, and another, more spectacular, in the west: al-Andalus.

http://www.webislam.com/numeros/2000/00_5/Articulos%2000_5/Andalusian_Reflections.htm

WildBlueYonder
02-28-04, 04:07 AM
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/sacredplaces/images/cordobainta.jpg

hey, P_M, could you enligthen us on the origins of that mosque? It used to be a Visagothic cathreral, but the muslim rulers first made it into two worship centers, then took it all


When you think of European culture, one of the first things that may come to your mind is the renaissance. Many of the roots of European culture can be traced back to that glorious time of art, science, commerce and architecture. But did you know that long before the renaissance there was a place of humanistic beauty in Muslim Spain? Not only was it artistic, scientific and commercial, but it also exhibited incredible tolerance, imagination and poetry. Moors, as the Spaniards call the Muslims, populated Spain for nearly 700 years. As you'll see, it was their civilization that enlightened Europe and brought it out of the dark ages to usher in the renaissance. Many of their cultural and intellectual influences still live with us today. a civ founded on stealing, war, looting & yes, after the conquest, art & beauty, o to have such mericiful conquerors as these, they were so well loved that the Spainish spent 781 years kicking them out of Spain, what love shown to those wonderful rulers, why?


Read about the Almoravides & Almohades in Spanish
http://www.ahl-ul-bait.org/Espanol/maqalat/history/es_h_de_al-andalus/es_h_de_al-andalus(6).htm

WildBlueYonder
02-28-04, 04:30 AM
They did, for centuries DAMASCUS AND BAGHDAD were the centers of the world.
tell that to the Chinese, the Indians, the Aztecs & the Incas
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/china/age.html
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/landrajnamavali.html
http://www.american-indians.net/empires.htm



Islam indeed activate and developed many muslim states, look at Malaysia for example, it is one of the most advanced 15 countires in the world and it is MUSLIM.
you mean the Chinese there, that's why there is so much discrimination against them, they're too rich
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/1467-7660.00037/abs/
http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/99/0820/cs8.html


Look at Pakistan, they produce their own fighter jets and nuclear submarine there...and many more examples.
good for them, is there still poverty in Pakistan? What about their education system, is it tops?
http://www.unesco.org/education/efa/know_sharing/grassroots_stories/pakistan_2.shtml
http://www.yespakistan.com/education/educationinPakistan.asp

Proud_Muslim
03-06-04, 03:50 AM
[QUOTE=Randolfo]you mean the Chinese there, that's why there is so much discrimination against them, they're too rich

What chinese ? large part of china was under Muslim rule.


good for them, is there still poverty in Pakistan? What about their education system, tops?

How about poverty in Mexico or for that matter in America ??? :rolleyes:

WildBlueYonder
03-09-04, 08:36 PM
Please dont speak from your ass without proof, this mosque was NOT a church, it laters was converted from mosque into church, so much so for the catholic tolerance !
After you read the info below, you can apologize later; muslims are allowed to apologize if they make errors, right?

:rolleyes:

http://studentwebs.coloradocollege.edu/~A_KLEIN/ah210/visigoth.htm

http://gallery.sjsu.edu/IslamicTutorial/Cordoba/cordoba.html

The following is from:
http://www.spaintour.com/heritage.htm#mosque

HISTORIC CENTRE OF CORDOBA
________________________________________
The city of Cordoba lies on the right-hand bank of the Guadalquivir. It is the former capital of El Andalus, of the emirate and caliphate of the same name and has preserved many architectural sights of its past, especially its Mosque which became a part of the World Heritage List in 1984. The beautiful Parador of La Arruzafa overlooks the second most important city in the Guadalquivir Valley.
Where the Mosque stands today, there used to be a basilica consecrated to San Vicente in Visigothic times. When the Arabs conquered Cordoba in 711, the building was shared and divided into two equal parts for Muslims and Christians. This odd arrangement lasted until 784 when Abd al-Rahman I decided to build a new mosque at the site, a mosque which was finished by his son Hisham I in 790.
The building was progressively enlarged, and it was Almanzor, Hisham II's favourite, who carried out the last extension by adding eight aisles to the eastern part of the building and who finished El Patio de los Naranjos (ie, of the Orange Trees), where four large ritual fountains were installed. After the reconquest of Cordoba in 1236, the mosque was consecrated to Christian worship and remained unchanged until 1384, when the chancel was enlarged by destroying arches and columns and replacing them with Gothic architecture. In 1523, part of the prayer hall was remodelled along Renaissance lines.
The Mosque forms an almost perfect rectangle which measure 180m from north to south and 130m from east to west. It is surrounded by a massive enclosure which is reinforced by thick square towers with many temple door between. The main entrance, which is called "El Perdon", is 14th century Mudejar and faces north.
This religious building borders on the Guadalquivir in the south, while the "Sahn" or Patio de los Naranjos lies in the north, surrounded by a high crenellated wall. The Patio is decorated with porticoes on three sides and has a tower inside, which has absorbed the original minaret, as well as fountains.
Modelled on the one in Damascus, the Cordoba Mosque represents considerable architectural progress compared with its model. The most admirable feature is the way in which the builders solved the problem of the arches on which the ceiling rests. They used two superimposed arches which was an unprecedented novelty in Arab architecture. Most of the columns take advantage of earlier Roman, Early Christian and Visigothic constructions. The horse-shoe arches have wither stone or brick voussoirs and the ceilings were originally flat with wooden caissons.
Inside the Mosque, the Villaviciosa Chapel is outstanding. For the first time, it has Caliphal vaults which were of great importance in later Spanish architecture. The decoration of this hall is the most sumptuous in Caliphal art, including the closely-knit tracery of the intersecting round trefoil arches, the many-coloured wall mosaics and the unique decoration of the cupola. The Mihrab or decorated niche is found in the centre area of the chapel.
The great Cordoba Mosque, irreplaceable proof of the civilisation of the Caliphate of Cordoba (929-1031), harbours one of the most beautiful architectural designs ever carried out, with the 19 aisles of its hall containing a forest of columns, the curious overlapping arches and the beautiful ribbed cupola. The centre of Cordoba partly preserves the boundaries and the layout of the Muslim city. The narrow white-washed streets which surround the Mosque lead to the only surviving synagogue, to Gothic churches with Mudéjar towers, houses with Plateresque façades, Renaissance palaces in which courtyards follow in rapid succession. Gothic convents with Baroque treasures, unassuming houses with courtyards covered with flowers, palaces and hospital converted into magnificent museums and unsuspected squares: the Potro and Crist de los Faroles Squares or the Corredera colonnade. The Roman Calahorra bridge and the Alcázar (Palace) of the Christian Kings, enlarged with splendid gardens, are preserved in a highly restores state.

Oh yeah, so much for muslim tolerance! :D :p

WildBlueYonder
03-12-04, 01:27 AM
Please dont speak from your ass without proof, I guess your voice must be very, very low, it must be hard to talk to you face to face? bad breath & all



this mosque was NOT a church, it laters was converted from mosque into church, say that again, NOT is the same as never, right?

BTW, do you ever read non-muslim sources? or are you such a one track mind? so easily de-railed, oh! proud-whatever your name is!




so much so for the catholic tolerance ! still waiting for an apology, (whisles while he waits, in G minor, with a F flat cresendo in 3/4 time)



:rolleyes:

Proud_Muslim
03-12-04, 06:51 AM
My ass !! you are quoting ORIENTALISTS sources and you want me to take you seriously !!! :D

When the Umayyad were supplanted by the Abbasids in 750 and the centre of Islam relocated from Damascus, Syria to Baghdad, Iraq, a Umayyad prince named Abed Al-Rahman I moved to Spain where Muslims were already established & founded a dynasty with Cordoba as its capital. The kingdom flourished, lasting for nearly 300 years (756-1031). In 929 a restored Umayyad caliphate was set up in Cordoba, in rivalry with the Abbasids in Baghdad: by any standard, Cordoba was the richest, most sophisticated city in Europe.

The Great Mosque of Cordoba, one of the most magnificent buildings in the whole of Islamic Architecture, was founded by Abed Al-Rahman I in 784. It followed the customary Arab Architectural plan, a large courtyard with a prayer hall on the south side.

It was substantially enlarged on four subsequent occasions (10th c. "I" Abed Al-Rahman I; "II" Abed Al-Rahman II; "III" Al-Hakam II; "IV" Al-Mansur), making it today the largest mosque in Islam outside Samarra. The Qibla wall (nearest Mecca) and the minaret date from the 10th century. The extensive arcades, which eventually quadrupled in number, amounting to 19, or 18 rows of arches, follow an unusual pattern which was faithfully followed in each successive extension. Roman columns were used but, as they were not tall enough, rectangular piers were placed on top, supporting a semicircular arch that in turn supports the roof. Each arch are alternately red brick and white stone, creating, as one looks along the aisles, a striking striped effect.

This is repeated in the complex cusped arches before the central mihrab, a space sometimes called the sanctuary, where stone of two contrasting colors is employed. This elaborate and intricate chamber dates from 965 and is almost a separate artwork, unusually large and deep, with introductory trios of three-tiered arches.

The decoration here is at its richest, basically floral with inscriptions from the Qur'an in carved plaster, marble and glass & gold mosaic. The vaults whose intersecting ribbed arches support the domes are so complicated they will challenge your eye & brain.

And if we look at the outside walls, we find nothing indicate the existence of any church:

http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/ia/images/g.m.cordoba10.jpg

http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/ia/images/g.m.cordoba11.jpg

http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/ia/images/g.m.cordoba17.jpg


And oh by the way, apology from christian LIARS like yourself will be REJECTED !! :D

WildBlueYonder
03-13-04, 01:12 AM
My ass !! you are quoting ORIENTALISTS sources and you want me to take you seriously !!! [/B]
So, you only believe muslim sources? so, all infidels are liars no matter what?



And oh by the way, apology from christian LIARS like yourself will be REJECTED !!
don't worry, I will never apology to an infidel cresent-moon idolitar that lies all the time, tell the truth & I'll stand with you,
lie, & you stand with the devil, the "father of lies"

Thersites
04-03-04, 11:25 AM
A few things Proud Muslim forgot to say:
He writes of "muslim Spain" as if the seven hundred years that muslims ruled parts of Spain were a continuous uninterrupted period, and as if muslim Spain was a single entity. This was not so. The first invasion may have been greeted with indifference, or even mild welcome, by Spanish people pleased to get rid of the visigoths, but their new muslim rulers were as oppressive as the old. It is curious that PM gives pictures of the beautiful architecture left by some muslims in Spain. Those buildings were put up by the labour and paid for by the taxes of their subjects, and most of the inhabitants were slaves who were there to serve the comfort and convenience of their masters.

For most of their history in Spain, the muslim kingdoms were much like the other kingdoms in Spain: taking a practical line, making allies where they could regardless of religion. They allied with christian states against other muslim states when it was convenient and used islam chiefly as a way to get allies from Morocco and other muslim countries. It was not only muslim Spain which was- by the low standards of the time- tolerant. Christians from other parts of Europe were shocked by the toleration of the Spanish christian kingdoms. Toleration was not a principal, but a practical necessity- as can be seen by what happened in a re-united Spain.

Islamic toleration was not what we would understand by the term now: christians and jews were second-class subjects, the slaves of the slaves of god, with special extra taxes to pay for their toleration and expected to submit to muslim rule. For example, between 850 and 859, 48 christians were executed for religious offences in Cordova alone: certainly, they were foolish to break the laws, but a regime which executes for religious reasons is certainly not "tolerant" by contemporary standards. From time to time there were massacres of jews and christians in muslim areas to remind them of their place, and, by withdrawing toleration, to make them appreciate it. Nor were the muslims exactly tolerant among themselves. Many of the wars within muslim Spain and between muslim states were inspired by the Arab view of berbers and Spanish muslims as second-class subjects. Indeed, the "golden age of muslim Spain"- the Umayyad dynasty- was not ended by the christians of Spain, but by civil war, a break up into statelets and an invasion by Moroccan berbers who decided they had had quite enough of this unislamic behaviour.

When these invaders, the almoravids, had settled in Spain and begun to show signs of decadence, taste and toleration, they too were disposed of by the almohads. They too became lax (the great philosopher Averroes was supported by the almohads, even though they had to exile him for his opinions), but this time it was the Castilians who restricted muslim rule in Spain to Granada. Granada lasted, but only because it was too weak to matter, and because the Spanish kingdoms were fighting each other for the next couple of centuries.

It's worth remembering that the myth of tolerant islamic Spain was spread by English and American popular historians, who knew little of, and feard little from muslims, while they knew and hated Spaniards.
Certainly, mediaeval islam was probably more tolerant- or rather, less intolerant- than mediaeval christianity, but it shows something of the mindset of modern islam that Proud Muslim and others are particularly proud of a bunch of murderous invaders and despots and cite them as a wonderful contemporary example.

Rappaccini
04-03-04, 11:49 PM
Nice name, dude.

And a good point to go along with it.

Proud_Muslim
04-04-04, 01:54 AM
A few things Proud Muslim forgot to say:
He writes of "muslim Spain" as if the seven hundred years that muslims ruled parts of Spain were a continuous uninterrupted period, and as if muslim Spain was a single entity. This was not so. The first invasion may have been greeted with indifference, or even mild welcome, by Spanish people pleased to get rid of the visigoths, but their new muslim rulers were as oppressive as the old.

Well, you are speaking without credible source ( you have to understand that ORIENTALIST SOURCES are very biased ), I refer you to DEAN DERHAK, famous English Historian, let us read what he wrote:

''When you think of European culture, one of the first things that may come to your mind is the renaissance. Many of the roots of European culture can be traced back to that glorious time of art, science, commerce and architecture. But did you know that long before the renaissance there was a place of humanistic beauty in Muslim Spain? Not only was it artistic, scientific and commercial, but it also exhibited incredible tolerance , imagination and poetry. Moors, as the Spaniards call the Muslims, populated Spain for nearly 700 years. As you'll see, it was their civilization that enlightened Europe and brought it out of the dark ages to usher in the renaissance. Many of their cultural and intellectual influences still live with us today. ''

http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm


It is curious that PM gives pictures of the beautiful architecture left by some muslims in Spain. Those buildings were put up by the labour and paid for by the taxes of their subjects, and most of the inhabitants were slaves who were there to serve the comfort and convenience of their masters.

This is utter and pure and blatant nonesense, the people who built these amazing palaces were from the Muslim Orient, mainly from SYRIA, they were MUSLIMS and they were very happy to build what they were building.


For most of their history in Spain, the muslim kingdoms were much like the other kingdoms in Spain: taking a practical line, making allies where they could regardless of religion. They allied with christian states against other muslim states when it was convenient and used islam chiefly as a way to get allies from Morocco and other muslim countries.

You are talking about later age in the history of Muslim Spain or what we call it in ARABIC: MULUK AL TAWAEF ( the kings of small emirates ) this era started in the 13th century and evantually led to the muslim retreat from AL ANDALUS ( Spain ).


It was not only muslim Spain which was- by the low standards of the time- tolerant. Christians from other parts of Europe were shocked by the toleration of the Spanish christian kingdoms.

LMAO !!! toleration of the spanish christian kingdoms !! are you serious ?? GIVE ME A BREAK !!! :rolleyes:


Islamic toleration was not what we would understand by the term now: christians and jews were second-class subjects, the slaves of the slaves of god, with special extra taxes to pay for their toleration and expected to submit to muslim rule.

Again, pure NONESENSE with no credible evidence.....here is something about MUSLIM TOLERANCE IN SPAIN WITH CREDIBLE NON-ORIENTALIST WESTERN REFERENCES:

Through the centuries, many important positions, including the highest offices under Muslim rulers, were held by Christians and Jews. In spite of the fact that in the remainder of Europe non-Christian faiths were, in the main, not accepted, the Muslims of Al-Andalus remained faithful to a policy of scrupulous tolerance.

At times, this respect for other religions was sorely tested, like that which happened during the 9th century in Cordova. Some Christians found that it was almost impossible to maintain their religion in a country that offered no apparent persecution. Alvaro, a Christian theologian, is reputed to have complained that the Arabic language had become so alluring to young Christians that they could hardly write a letter in Latin, their own language. Rather, they revelled in the intricacies and beauty of the Arabic tongue.

The clergy, seeing that their flocks were becoming Arabized and many embracing the Islamic faith, tried to stop the conversions. Nuns and monks began to publicly blasphemize the Prophet Muhammad, but the Muslims never changed their policy of tolerance. Only the guilty were persecuted after the judges tried every method to have them recant their denunciations.

Due to the open society in the Iberian Peninsula, the Jewish golden age in literature developed under Muslim rule, especially between the 10th and 12th centuries. During this period, when Jews in the remainder of Europe were hardly tolerated, in Al-Andalus, the Hebrew tongue developed its grammar and vocabulary on the model of the Arabic language. The uncommon openness of life in this medieval state gave a chance for a great number of Jews to become renowned literary men in both Arabic and Hebrew.

Discussing the unparalleled tolerance shown for Jews by the Spanish Arabs in the 10th century under the rule of Abd al-Rahaman III, Elmer Bendiner in his book The Rise and Fall of Paradise writes:

"There was thus no pressure on Jews in tenth-century Andalusia to retire into a ghetto. There were no laws and scarcely any customs that confined Jews to any place or occupation. When their gates were shut they were the ones who shut them."

At the same, in the remainder of Europe, all life revolved around rigid Christianity. Truth within the church could only be conceived by faith alone, as opposed to reason. That is, until Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century reconciled faith and reason. In this, he was greatly influenced by Muslim philosophers like Averroës whose works had been translated into Latin, in the 11th century, after the fall of Toledo.

In the subsequent years, the classical legacy, long outlawed by the Church, was made available through the translation of Arabic books. Along with Arab learning, developed throughout the Islamic world, the classical tradition was reaccepted by Christendom, setting the West on the road to greatness.

The exceptional tolerance practised by the Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula continued until Al-Andalus began to be overwhelmed by the Christian states of the north. When refugees commenced to stream southward into Muslim controlled areas, religious tolerance began to give way to narrow-mindedness. The extraordinary tolerant medieval Islamic state of Al-Andalus, which many Arab historians have called an 'Earthly Paradise', began to fade away.

REFERENCES

Bendiner, E., The Rise and Fall of Paradise, G.P. Putnam's. Sons, New York, 1983.

Burkhardt, T., The Moorish Culture in Spain, (Translated by A. Jaffa), George Allen and Unwin Ltd., London, 1972.

Castro, A., The Spaniards, University of California Press, Los Angeles, 1971.

Chejne, A.G., Muslim Spain, It's History and Culture, The University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis, 1974.

Dozy, R., Spanish Islam, Frank Cass, London, 1972.

Imamuddin, S.M., Some Aspects of the Socio-Economic and Cultural History of Muslim Spain, E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1965.

Read, J., The Moors in Spain and Portugal, Faber and Faber, London, 1974.

Sordo, E., Moorish Spain, Elek, London, 1963.

As for the rest of your post, it is all typical anti muslim orientalist nonesense.

Thersites
04-04-04, 11:00 AM
Well, you are speaking without credible source ( you have to understand that ORIENTALIST SOURCES are very biased ), The question is not whether they are- or are not- "biased", but whether what they wrote is true.
I refer you to DEAN DERHAK, famous English Historian, let us read what he wrote:Who is Dean Derhak? Famous, he may be, but none of his books are in the British Library.




This is utter and pure and blatant nonesense, the people who built these amazing palaces were from the Muslim Orient, mainly from SYRIA, they were MUSLIMS and they were very happy to build what they were building.The people who ordered these amazing palaces to be built were, no doubt, very happy. Whether the people who paid the taxes for them, laboured to put them up and served as slaves in them were quite so enthusiastic is a very different matter.




talking about later age in the history of Muslim Spain or what we call it in ARABIC: MULUK AL TAWAEF ( the kings of small emirates ) this era started in the 13th century and evantually led to the muslim retreat from AL ANDALUS ( Spain ). You wrote of muslim Spain as if it were one continuous, uninterrupted entity. I merely pointed out that it was a little more complicated. I am glad you have learned that that was so.




LMAO !!! toleration of the spanish christian kingdoms !! are you serious ?? GIVE ME A BREAK !!! :rolleyes: It does not matter if I am serious. i am right. The christian kingdoms of Spain were- then- quite prepared to ally with muslim kingdoms and to govern muslim and jewish subjects, as long as they paid extra taxes. The muslims of Granada, it is worth remembering, revolted against the almohads and preferred christian rule. Christians then were every bit as tolerant as the muslims. Later, of course, when they were able to, the church in Spain took a different view of muslims and descendants of muslims.





As for the rest of your post, it is all typical anti muslim orientalist nonesense.All of your references were to Umayyad Spain. As I said, the almarovids- among others- didn't approve of this unislamic behaviour. I notice that while you quote people who blame those who were killed for blasphemy, you have, it seems, no objection to the laws under which they were killed. A limit to toleration, don't you think? I agreed that compared with the rest of Europe Spain was comparatively tolerant, and mediaeval islam- except with polytheists- was by-and-large- less intolerant than mediaeval christians. I just don't think that's saying much in their favour.
I pointed out that many historians of Spain were biased against roman catholics and Spaniards. The other thing to remember is that these accounts of muslim Spain ultimately derive from muslim sources. No doubt these are entirely reliable and unbiased in your eyes, but others are a little more dubious.
To describe truths you do not like- would you care to find a lie in my summary?- as "typical anti-islam orientalist nonsense" may convince you, PM. The problem is, you have to persuade other people.

Constantijn
12-25-05, 12:38 PM
Most knowledge was most often of Hellenistic origins and not Arab.., or was Persian which they 'stole' after they invaded the region.

The start of the islamicisation in Spain took place in 711 AD, and Mohammed's Egira in 622 AD. Mecca was only surrender to Islam in 630 AD.

Which knowledge could have developed a nomadic tribe of goat herders from the Arabian Peninsula in such small period of time? Right after taking over Arabia they started expanding through modern Iran and Iraq through the East, and Egypt and Lybia through the West.
In 711 AD, when they were called in to help a rebellion in Hispania, they had not yet finished conquering the Berbers of North-Western Africa

Communist Hamster
12-25-05, 02:01 PM
Now look what you've done. This thread is an antique: do not post!

WildBlueYonder
12-27-05, 08:36 PM
Well, you are speaking without credible source ( you have to understand that ORIENTALIST SOURCES are very biased ), I refer you to DEAN DERHAK, famous English Historian, let us read what he wrote:you mean this famous Dean Derhak?

http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm
Muslim Spain and European Culture
©1995-2000 Dean Derhak
When you think of European culture, one of the first things that may come to your mind is the renaissance. Many of the roots of European culture can be traced back to that glorious time of art, science, commerce and architecture. But did you know that long before the renaissance there was a place of humanistic beauty in Muslim Spain?

http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/recipes.html
No page on Spain would be complete without some history!
Muslim Spain's Influences on Western Culture
Overview of Spanish History
Copyright © 1995-2000 Dean Derhak


http://216.183.184.20/subject/food/spain.html
LDS Mission: Favorite Spanish Food Recipes
http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/recipes.html
These are links collected by the Spain-Barcelona Latter Day Saints (Mormon) Mission Alumnus Dean Derhak.so, is it this famous DD or are there more? hahaha :D ha


Sordo, E., Moorish Spain, Elek, London, 1963."sordo", means "deaf", which is ironic, seeing how you're 'deaf' to reason

As for the rest of your post, it is all typical anti muslim orientalist nonesense.before scholars started to specialize in countries, peoples or civilizations, most Egyptian, ME &/or Asian scholars were "orientalists"

WildBlueYonder
12-27-05, 08:39 PM
Now look what you've done. This thread is an antique: do not post!too late, BTW, this gave me an incentive to look up that famous English historian "Dean Derhak", whoever he may be, hehehe

WildBlueYonder
12-27-05, 09:12 PM
What chinese ? large part of china was under Muslim rule.oh, about 4 thousand years of chinese rule, muslims conquer it for a few hundred years, & its suddenly "muslim"? is Spain next? I fear for the US

How about poverty in Mexico or for that matter in America ??? :-rolleyes-:you miss the point, you bring up Pakistan & Malaysia as examples of "proud muslim" achievements, I'm just pointing out, that those countries leave much to be desired

Petrarch
01-24-06, 07:18 PM
http://www.donquijote.org/album/photos/album/granada_la_alhambra.jpg

http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Ibn_Battuta/Grenada2-11.gif

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/sacredplaces/images/cordobainta.jpg

When you think of European culture, one of the first things that may come to your mind is the renaissance. Many of the roots of European culture can be traced back to that glorious time of art, science, commerce and architecture. But did you know that long before the renaissance there was a place of humanistic beauty in Muslim Spain? Not only was it artistic, scientific and commercial, but it also exhibited incredible tolerance, imagination and poetry. Moors, as the Spaniards call the Muslims, populated Spain for nearly 700 years. As you'll see, it was their civilization that enlightened Europe and brought it out of the dark ages to usher in the renaissance. Many of their cultural and intellectual influences still live with us today.

Way back during the eighth century, Europe was still knee-deep in the Medieval period. That's not the only thing they were knee-deep in. In his book, "The Day The Universe Changed," the historian James Burke describes how the typical European townspeople lived:

"The inhabitants threw all their refuse into the drains in the center of the narrow streets. The stench must have been overwhelming, though it appears to have gone virtually unnoticed. Mixed with excrement and urine would be the soiled reeds and straw used to cover the dirt floors. (p. 32)

http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm



The Renaissance that started in fourteenth century in Italy was mostly a secular and humanistic movement. It propagated for rationalism and knowledge instead of blind faith. It was also a period with a great interest in roman and greek culture, and turnaround from the Medieval church.

The reasons the renaissance started was not that much of islamic Spain, but of several other reasons:
When the catholic church gets more powerful in the eleventh century, many priest and bishops getting richer, while most people are poor. That makes people starting to doubt the truth in the church.

Medieval "thinkers" like Abelard, Bacon and Thomas of Auqinas are starting to challenging the knowledge of the church.

New ideas and cultures comes to Europe when the europeans meets muslims, greeks and other people far away(like marco polo in China).

In the eleventh century, the italian cities takes control over the trade in mediterrean sea, between the old rich east and the new west. The italians grow richer and they can spend it on artistery.

The rich italian cities compete with each other and they are paying artist to enrich their cities.

The feudal society crushes in the fourteenth century and people seeks other truth then the old church.

It was a contempt for the auktoritarian church, the wealth of italian cities and a longing for ancient rome and greece that started the renaissance in the fourteenth century and not islamic Spain.

Communist Hamster
01-25-06, 01:49 AM
Proud muslim has not posted in sciforums for years now, so you may find he may not reply to your questions or comments.

Zephyr
01-25-06, 03:51 AM
It also depends on the specific ruler for any given period. Saying Muslim Spain was 'tolerant' or 'intolerant' are both just generalisations.

Indymaestro
02-01-06, 10:21 PM
Wow....I mean really, wow.

I can't believe no one has challenged this guy on his "facts" and "information" yet. Are you people really swallowing half this s#*%?

How is a religious zealot like this guy even taken seriously here at the SCIENCE forums? I mean for the love of pete, look at his username! It reeks of the blatant brain-washing that accompanies many cults and religions (most notably Islam). The next thing you know, he's going to say that Muslims discovered air or gravity....

FIRST OF ALL, for most of the "scientific advances" that this clown purports to attribute to Muslims and Arabs (Mathematics, Astronomy, etc) - most of these ideas were translated from Chinese, Greek, and Indian texts into Arabic and then relayed to the Enlightened Europeans (after waking up from the Dark Ages WITHOUT the influence of muslims I might add....once again, please cite real evidence and not propaganda as to how you think Muslims ushered in the renaissance in Europe? Unbelievable...). Islam was only founded 1300 years ago, whereas all the other civilizations I mentioned earlier had been going for a good thousand years or more before Islam was even conjured up! It is because Enlightened Europeans were first re-exposed to these ideas by the Arabs, without any knowledge of historical accuracy of where these ideas came from, that they [falsely] attributed these advances to the Arabs. The Arabs are no more the enlightened scientists that they say they are than the Americans are the inventors of the English Language!

Many of the Geometric theorems and rules that the Arabs claim to have "discovered" have now been known to have existed in Greece a good 800 years before Mohammad was even born. The same thing applies to the discoveries in the field of Algebra and Calculus [now being attributed to the Indians] and Astronomy and Navigation [to the Chinese]. So you can say, that the Arabs were simply translators or bridges of the information between the Pre-Islamic Ancient civilizations and the Enlightened Europeans, who then brought science into the realm that we know it as today. It should be noted that in the scientific world today, increasingly this myth of the age of "Arab Enlightenment and Scientific Discovery" is only now being debunked and exposed as the propaganda that it is, and the true credit is being given to those civilizations which deserve the credit. To say that Arabs or Muslims are responsible for all the scientific advances that they purport to have discovered is sheer lunacy and curtailing to their propaganda! Custodians of information, yes; discoverers of Scientific Principles, no....Do your own research people, don't take propaganda from this guy [or anyone for that matter] seriously.

As for your glorious Muslim Heritage Proud_Muslim, I would urge you to look deeply and honestly at the pain and suffering that your religion has caused all around the world in the past and which it is still causing today.

My Hindu ancestors were pillaged, killed and eventually driven out of their ancestral home in Kashmir by "peaceful" muslims to the point now that it has now become nearly entirely a muslim population. We can never go back, and neither can the millions displaced by your muslim brothers. You say you all are "seperatists", but the ugly truth is that Muslims are to blame for the violence and displacement of indigenous peoples in countries like Indonesia, Russia [Chechnya], Thailand, India [Kashmir], Phillipines, former Yugoslavia, Sudan, etc etc the list goes on. Why is it that you muslims are fighting so many different types of people from all across the world? Christians, Hindus, Jews, African Animists....you muslims are in conflict with all types of people. The only common factor in all these incidents is Islam.

Oh and also, if you so despise the open and free society that is available here in Britain, please, go and live under some sharia-run paradise in the middle east. No one in the West is stopping you, I promise. We have no room for fundamentalists such as yourself who want to impose your ridiculous medieval dogma unto the rest of us.

spidergoat
02-02-06, 11:22 AM
Proud Muslim isn't here anymore, and many people did challenge his biased view of muslim history. It is interesting that Wahabists are now seeking a return of Muslim rule of Spain, and a restoration of the Caliphate.

Facial
02-02-06, 01:37 PM
There is no room for intolerance or hate speech.

Islam is not a bad religion. The insurgency is a relatively recent phenomenon.

Ophiolite
02-03-06, 06:02 AM
There is no room for intolerance or hate speech.Regretably there seems to be plenty of room for both at sciforums.

Islam is not a bad religion. The insurgency is a relatively recent phenomenon.Seconded.

Communist Hamster
02-03-06, 06:57 AM
Thirded. Excellent points Facial.

Al-Mansur
07-05-07, 12:58 PM
Hello Everyone,

I am new to this site. I was looking up images on Christians living in Muslim Spain. I clicked on the coins and found your debates. I find your knowledge on Muslim Spain as impressive as your tenacious ability to debate on it.

I especially appreciate Shielf of Islam for his tenacity and fearlessness in engaging what must be for him a foreign community and to argue his point of view. At the same time I appreciate the frankness of the rest of the members in addressing the issues of their concern.

From what I've read Muslim Spain had its glories, much of them built on the past (just as the Great Mosque of Cordova was built on the pillars of a Christian church (St Isadora ? Does anyone know), which was bought by the Muslim community from the Chrisitans.....and then enlarged like the Hispano-Muslim civilisation itself.

I am reading a book entitled Muslim Architecture in Andalusia, which must be on the shelves of most large bookstores in most countries in the English-speaking world. It is filled with gorgeous details of the splendid architectural monuments built by the Moors.

Of course the civilisation was not without it's faults. All civilisations have them. That is what makes us all human. There was the comparatively enlightened rule of the initial period of the caliphate and then the relatively unenlightened rule of the Almoravids and later the Almohads, during which even Jews fled to Christian Spain. And I think it is probably useful to remind ourselves of these things.

Still, I enjoy the architecture and the food of the region. I was happy to read of the news of the little Muslim girls who were arrested for praying in the Great Mosque in Cordova. I found it quite moving that for the first time in perhaps 700 years Muslims were praying there. I hope they were not detained too long. Indeed I would like to learn more about their detention. Still, although I am not a Muslim and no friend of Al-Queda's, it was a courageous thing to do in my opinion and a glorious thing. I hope that by now they are home sipping tea and talking about their trip with their friends. I have read that during certain periods of Spanish history some of the churches were also used as mosque and also synagogues or temples. This was the glory that was Spain.

Well, it is past 2.00am where I am. Have a good day.

Al-Mansur
07-05-07, 01:10 PM
Before I go to sleep I would just like to recall Shield of Islam's telling of how upon entering the Alhambra (particularly as he as a Muslim returned to a former Muslim realm) was moved to tears to be in this fabled palace in this fabled land. I would just like to say that I imagine that the sight of such magnificence would bring tears to my eyes as well, even though I am not Muslim.

WildBlueYonder
07-05-07, 09:12 PM
Wow....I mean really, wow.
....once again, please cite real evidence and not propaganda as to how you think Muslims ushered in the renaissance in Europe? Unbelievable...). Islam was only founded 1300 years ago, whereas all the other civilizations I mentioned earlier had been going for a good thousand years or more before Islam was even conjured up! It is because Enlightened Europeans were first re-exposed to these ideas by the Arabs, without any knowledge of historical accuracy of where these ideas came from, that they [falsely] attributed these advances to the Arabs. The Arabs are no more the enlightened scientists that they say they are than the Americans are the inventors of the English Language!3 times death, yet refuses to die, this thread must be a zombie or vampire? :-0

there is a theory that in a back-handed way, islam WAS responsible for the Renaissance, namely when the Ottomans finally took Constantinople in 1453, the Greeks & other Christians that fled them to Christian Europe, helped spark the renaissance with their ideas, knowledge, and skills

El Greco, as an example comes to mind

WildBlueYonder
07-05-07, 09:24 PM
Before I go to sleep I would just like to recall Shield of Islam's telling of how upon entering the Alhambra (particularly as he as a Muslim returned to a former Muslim realm) was moved to tears to be in this fabled palace in this fabled land. I would just like to say that I imagine that the sight of such magnificence would bring tears to my eyes as well, even though I am not Muslim.

For not being muslim, you chose an interesting name


http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0831613.html
Mansur, al-
Mansur, al- (äl-mänsoor') [key][Arab.,=the victorious], d. 775, 2d Abbasid caliph (754–75) and founder of the city of Baghdad. His name was in full Abu Jafar abd-Allah al-Mansur. He was brother and successor of Abu al-Abbas. A vigorous and dominating caliph, he successfully consolidated his empire even though it was threatened by internal strife and foreign wars. He could not prevent the secession of Muslim Spain, however, under the Umayyad prince Abd ar-Rahman I. Mansur lived at first, as his brother had, near Kufa, but in 762 he began to build a new city, Baghdad.
The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2007, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

S.A.M.
07-05-07, 09:32 PM
Al Mansur is also a strategy game.

Norsefire
07-06-07, 12:28 AM
Of course, the West owes a great debt to all middle east.
And they repay us by destroying us

WildBlueYonder
07-06-07, 12:41 AM
Al Mansur is also a strategy game.oh, gamers, not into that
halo, gta, ho-hum


me, I'm a big experimental spaceship, notice that small view of my home planet in my avatar

spidergoat
07-06-07, 12:45 AM
Of course, the West owes a great debt to all middle east.
And they repay us by destroying us

Sounds like a strange deal. I wouldn't have agreed to that.

Norsefire
07-06-07, 12:53 AM
Let me rephrase. The west owes a great deal to Arab/Moslim ideas. And AMERICA repays us by causing death and destruction upon us

spidergoat
07-06-07, 12:57 AM
And lots of oil money.

Norsefire
07-06-07, 01:00 AM
no not really, China is by far a better market for oil.

WildBlueYonder
07-06-07, 01:07 AM
Of course, the West owes a great debt to all middle east.ok, I checked google, you're a comic book character

the West owes to Phoenicia, egypt, Mesopotamia, persia, greece, rome, india, china, arabs, its all interconnected, no one can take all the credit, thats just ego talking, thinking that just 1 area was the Golden kiss, able to bring the gift of civilization, tech, science, med, etc...


And they repay us by destroying us
first, the US is a conniving giant, it helped Afghanistan fight the soviets out of cold war intrigue, but the mujahhadin gladly accepted the infidels help then
helped Iraq against Iran
second the US is a misdirected giant, it was tricked into helping Kuwait
tricked into invading Iraq
3rd, the US is a sentimental giant, it helped the Bosnians, Macedonians, Kosavars
4th, the US is a dangerous giant, it defeated the Japanese, the Germans, the Soviets
5th, the US is a wounded giant, it still smarts from the defeat in Vietnam, the tragedy of 9-11,

6th, it plans on paying somebody back, make sure its not you

7th, Iraq & Afghanistan are just sideshows, secret plans about to be sprung, just make sure its not you that is caught

Norsefire
07-06-07, 01:11 AM
ok, I checked google, you're a comic book character

the West owes to Phoenicia, egypt, Mesopotamia, persia, greece, rome, india, china, arabs, its all interconnected, no one can take all the credit, thats just ego talking, thinking that just 1 area was the Golden kiss, able to bring the gift of civilization, tech, science, med, etc...


first, the US is a conniving giant, it helped Afghanistan fight the soviets out of cold war intrigue, but the mujahhadin gladly accepted the infidels help then
helped Iraq against Iran
second the US is a misdirected giant, it was tricked into helping Kuwait
tricked into invading Iraq
3rd, the US is a sentimental giant, it helped the Bosnians, Macedonians, Kosavars
4th, the US is a dangerous giant, it defeated the Japanese, the Germans, the Soviets
5th, the US is a wounded giant, it still smarts from the defeat in Vietnam, the tragedy of 9-11,

6th, it plans on paying somebody back, make sure its not you

7th, Iraq & Afghanistan are just sideshows, secret plans about to be sprung, just make sure its not you that is caught

Pheonicia, mesoptomia, egypt, all MIDDLE EAST!

The US is a terrorist giant, you forgot that one. It supports isreal, isreal is a terrorist, so therefore usa support terror

WildBlueYonder
07-06-07, 01:16 AM
no not really, China is by far a better market for oil.you mean now, but we're the drivers of the world economy, if al-zarqawi gets his wish, you'll be bartering goats for cup of water

china, india, saudi arabia, iran, need us
we need then too, hugs & kisses

WildBlueYonder
07-06-07, 01:20 AM
Pheonicia, mesoptomia, egypt, all MIDDLE EAST!those people werer not muslim or arab until the conquests, they would have never understood your term


The US is a terrorist giant, you forgot that one. It supports isreal, isreal is a terrorist, so therefore usa support terror& you are? sweet kisses, right?

israel, was stolen from the jews, the belong there

what does the quran say? wasn't it promised to the jews?

let God decide

Norsefire
07-06-07, 03:01 PM
Israel does not belong to the Jews. it is Arabian land and if we have to murder every fucking jew, we'll do it


Pheonicians are modern day Syrians and Lebanese please know your facts

and nonetheless they are middle eastern, cradle of civilization

iceaura
07-06-07, 06:26 PM
it is Arabian land and if we have to murder every fucking jew, we'll do it
- - -
and nonetheless they are middle eastern, cradle of civilization So this is what the uncivilized have to look forward to - murdering every fucking jew - as we achieve the high civilization of the modern Syrian ?

The Lebanese will be thrilled, no doubt, to become so highly civilized under Syria's guidance. They've been enjoying the opportunity to throw off their thousand years of barbaric peace, and set about murdering their neighbors, since the '80s.

DiamondHearts
07-06-07, 06:26 PM
I have recently been watching this BBC documentary about Muslim Spain. It's very interesting:

http://www.islamicvideos.net/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,243/Itemid,30/

Norsefire
07-06-07, 10:23 PM
So this is what the uncivilized have to look forward to - murdering every fucking jew - as we achieve the high civilization of the modern Syrian ?

The Lebanese will be thrilled, no doubt, to become so highly civilized under Syria's guidance. They've been enjoying the opportunity to throw off their thousand years of barbaric peace, and set about murdering their neighbors, since the '80s.

Americans are the masters of murder, man, anyone can see that

Syria is civlized like Greece or italy or Saudi.

and that is the stupidst post ever. Do you not think israelis would say 'murder every arab'? they sure are 'civilized' and yet they dont even have a homeland, how sad

WildBlueYonder
07-06-07, 11:47 PM
Israel does not belong to the Jews. it is Arabian land by conquest, it was promised to the sons of Jacob, known as Israel, a name given to him by God Himself


and if we have to murder every fucking jew, we'll do it really, & all the time most muslims say that islam is the religion of peace, even Bush says that, are you making President Bush a liar?

I say, therefore you can not be a real muslim, you must be a jewish impostor, trying to incite racial hatred against the peace-loving muslims, have you no shame, imposter, son of a dog. and if you are a real muslim, I disinherit you from the sons of the quran


Pheonicians are modern day Syrians and Lebanese please know your factsas told by a Syrian? do you have a DNA test to prove that? or are you trying to steal Phoenician history too?


and nonetheless they are middle eastern, cradle of civilizationnow, that area had several centers of power, by diverse people; Egyptians were black, look at their art, they wwere a black people that spoke a hamitic language, look that up, Mr. History major
heres a little lessons, if you can read

Aramaeans- http://www.topix.net/world/iran/2007/06/aram-nahrin-the-aramaeans-the-bible-christianity-and-the-west
Assyrians- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/ASSYRIA.HTM
Babylonians- http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/oldworld/middle_east/babylonians.html
Carthage- http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557005/Carthage_(ancient_city).html
Chaldeans- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CHALDEAN.HTM
Ebla- http://history-world.org/ebla.htm
Hittites- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/HITTITES.HTM
Israel- http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/ancient/asbook06.html
Medes- http://www.art-arena.com/medes.html
Persians- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/PERSIANS.HTM
Philistines- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines
Phoenicians- http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/aegean/theculturesofgreece/phoenician.html
Samaritans- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan
Sumerians - http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/SUMER.HTM

know your history, if you really are a Syrian

Norsefire
07-07-07, 12:00 AM
middle east is the REGION that they belong, even if not arabian

By conquest, it is ours, then let it be

Jews kill arabs, we kill them. I am a moslim, but I defend my race more than anything else. Arabs are the master race.

and have you not heard of Jihad? We are about peace, but when you have to defend yourself then you just have to

WildBlueYonder
07-07-07, 12:14 AM
Americans are the masters of murder, man, anyone can see thatnah, ah sucks, we're just babies at it, we have so much to learn from people like you, experts for thousands of years, it must be second nature


Syria is civlized like Greece or italy or Saudi.
syria is a dictatorship, run by a minority of Alawites in power, they kill any sunni that wants a fair democratic society,
just say something wrong, neck cut. btw, don't if you want to live


and that is the stupidst post ever. Do you not think israelis would say 'murder every arab'? they sure are 'civilized' and yet they dont even have a homeland, how sadreally? and you are an expert in "stupidity", to be able to say that?

WildBlueYonder
07-07-07, 12:32 AM
middle east is the REGION that they belong, even if not arabianyou mean now, it was a collection of warring states, until islam choked out all the other religions, that is the only connection now, its past history, which I am sure Iran would now like to control now (because there are still ethnicities buried there, beneath the surface)


By conquest, it is ours, then let it beso if we conquer it, its ours, right? isn't that how it works?


Jews kill arabs, we kill them. I am a moslim, but I defend my race more than anything else. good for you, so does that mean that if a muslim kills one of mine, I have to kill more muslims to make it even?


Arabs are the master race.really? and you have proof? sounds like nazis, didn't they lose?


and have you not heard of Jihad? yeah, so?


We are about peace,but with the proviso, only under muslim control


but when you have to defend yourself then you just have took, I'll agree with you, from now on, if any one kills 1 American, then 1,000, 000 of those that did it, must die, do you agree its fair or do you have other suggestions?

WildBlueYonder
07-07-07, 01:29 PM
I have recently been watching this BBC documentary about Muslim Spain. It's very interesting:

http://www.islamicvideos.net/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,243/Itemid,30/
you have to muddle through a BBC islamkissfest to find it

when trying to find out about muslim spain
read the sources, muslim, jew christian from there, they wrote well & voluminous

not biased sources, (Britain & the Netherlands then, nor muslim now) these countries were at war for their very survival against Spain (remember the Spanish Armada anyone, remember the expulsion of the jews many went to the Netherlands)?), they had 7 things to prove then & had the means & motive (printing press helped & literate jews too);
1) anti-catholic
2) anti-Spanish
3) better empire builders
4) better treasure thieves
5) better discoverers
6) better sailors
7) better propagandists

Al-Mansur
07-09-07, 12:20 PM
those people werer not muslim or arab until the conquests, they would have never understood your term

& you are? sweet kisses, right?

israel, was stolen from the jews, the belong there

what does the quran say? wasn't it promised to the jews?

let God decide

So what does the Koran say about Palestine being promised to the Jews?

Al-Mansur
07-09-07, 12:29 PM
All this talk of Israel and Palestine reminds me, I was just reading parts of Bloodline of the Holy Grail by Laurence Gardner. On Page 28 he mentions Palestine being divided into three provinces: Galilee, Judea, and Samaria. Then says that Herod was an Arab usurper, that he had converted to Judaism but was not of Davidic succession. 'In practise, Herod's authority was confined to Galilee. Judea was actually governed by the Roman procurator at Caesaria. Between the two of them, the regime was harsh in the extreme, and more than 3,000 summary crucifixions were carried out to coerce the population into submission. Prohibitive taxes were levied, torture was commonplace, and the Jewish suicide rate lept alarmingly. This was the brutal environment into which Jesus was born.

WildBlueYonder
07-09-07, 08:27 PM
All this talk of Israel and Palestine reminds me, I was just reading parts of Bloodline of the Holy Grail by Laurence Gardner. On Page 28 he mentions Palestine being divided into three provinces: Galilee, Judea, and Samaria. Then says that Herod was an Arab usurper, that he had converted to Judaism but was not of Davidic succession.
4 things wrong;
1) author is not creditable
2) basic idea is wrong
3) Herod was an Ideuminite
4) his people were forcably converted to Judaism by the Maccabees about 1 or 2 hundred years prior


'In practise, Herod's authority was confined to Galilee. Judea was actually governed by the Roman procurator at Caesaria. Between the two of them, the regime was harsh in the extreme, and more than 3,000 summary crucifixions were carried out to coerce the population into submission. Prohibitive taxes were levied, torture was commonplace, and the Jewish suicide rate lept alarmingly. This was the brutal environment into which Jesus was born.the Herodic dynasty was friends of Rome, they got appointed to several diff posts, the first was called Herod the Great

read these if you are interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040194/Herod-Antipas
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_31_-_Herod3_the_Great.asp

Al-Mansur
07-09-07, 10:09 PM
middle east is the REGION that they belong, even if not arabian

By conquest, it is ours, then let it be

Jews kill arabs, we kill them. I am a moslim, but I defend my race more than anything else. Arabs are the master race.

and have you not heard of Jihad? We are about peace, but when you have to defend yourself then you just have to

It is natural to want to defend your people. As an American I sometimes wonder how to react to attack. Do we say that we deserved it and surrender to the attackers or do we counterattack. If we do not counterattack is that not tantamount to surrender? Or would not counterattacking be a sort of strategy?

It seems that the killing of Muslims by Jews and Jews by Muslims has been going on since the end of the 19th century, in a more contemporary sense at least. However where it began I don't know. One website on the city of Hebron claims that the Jews of that city were wiped out in the 1920s. Then, of course, as a little research later reveals, gangs of Jews went about killing Palestinians (actually at the time they were Palestinians themselves, were they not?.....Palestinian Jews).

Aren't Arabs supposed to be descended from Ismail and wasn't Ishmail a son of Abraham? Aren't all Jews and Arabs sons of Abraham. Is that what he would have wanted, to see his sons kill each other?

Perhaps it's time that Israelis see the Palestinians as their Arabs and the Palestinians see the Israelis as their Jews.... a headache? Yes. a heartache? Yes, but brothers.

Al-Mansur
07-10-07, 12:46 PM
Moorish Music
The Moorish influence on the music of Spain is an interesting and controversial one. Musicologists believe that while there must have been some degree of influence it is hard to document as almost none of the music played by Moorish musicians was put to pen, an odd thing since they invented the system of tablature that was to become prevalent in Europe during the Renaissance.

The reason they didn't use their own system of notation seems to stem from the fact that Moorish musicians usually passed their music down from generation to generation. In other words it was transmitted directly from one generation of musician to the next....as it was in Europe. However, in Europe a growing middle class began to take an interest in music as a hobby and wanted to learn how to play instruments. Tablature was one way to augment what a music teacher could do for his students.

Various schools of music in North Africa today are thought to have been started by Hispano-Arab musicians who came to various cities in Morocco and Algeria as the Moorish cities in Spain fell, one by one, to the conquering armies of the Christians.

Although musicologists would challenge any Arabist to produce proof of Moorish influence in Spanish music, Groves Dictionary of Music does note similarities in style and acknowledges a probability as far as Moorish influence is concerned, at least in the South.

And then you have the music of the Sephardic Jews, in whose repertoire some think may be preserved Moorish tunes and songs. In the Palace Songbook there are also songs referring to the Moors such as the Romance de Abindarraez. One version of this song is about two Moorish girls, Fatima and Jarifa, who are looking down on the plains of Granada, and at their favourite knight, Abindarraez. All the Moorish knights are richly adorned in robes of silk and gold embroidery, made for them by their Moorish ladies.

The two damsels Fatima and Jarifa, who used to be friends, were no longer talking to one another, their former friendship fractured by jealousy.

Another version of the song begins with the Moors preparing for jousting on the morning of the Feast of St John and ends with a beleagered soldier coming in from battle at Antequera where his Moors were badly beaten. 'I have seven lance wounds, and I am among the better off of my comrades,' he says.

'I escaped with my soldiers to Archidona,' he continues. At this the king orders the call to arms and his men gather. At Alcala la Real (Royal Gate of Alacala), the Christians and Moors engage in battle. The Christians, although great in number, are in disarray. The Moors, who are well-versed in the art of war, deliver a crushing blow to the Christian forces laying ambush to them as they try to advance. With this victory the Moors return in high spirits shouting 'Victory is ours!'

And so we have a culture that is gone and yet in some ways still there in Spain. And of course there is Morocco and Algeria were you have the decendants of many Moors living to this day. In recent years many Spainish musicians have worked together with North African musicians to try and recreate the music of Moorish Spain. Although some considerable speculation is inevitably involved, one ingredient is the same, Christian and Mulsim musicians playing together in a highly improvised style.

DiamondHearts
07-10-07, 01:06 PM
This is very interesting, Al Mansur. Can you provide us with examples of the kind of music you are referring to? Any links where we can listen to Moorish Spanish music.

It's a shame alot of Spanish do not embrace their Moorish North African heritage, which was large part of their history.

Al-Mansur
07-10-07, 02:27 PM
Hi DiamondHearts,

I would recommend firstly a CD entitled 'Canciones y Danzas de Espana, Musica en la epoca de Cervantes, Music in the Time of Cervantes by Hesperion XX for the song whose lyrics I have described and others. The CD opens with Danzas y Romances para Moros y Moras (Moorish Dances & Ballads). This has some intriguing music: La perra mora (The Moorish Bitch) not a very polite title and it is an instrumental here. However the lyrics are given in part and the title is perhaps forgiven as the song is about a man who is in love with a Moorish lady (?) who is most cruel to him, hence the epithet. Here you have an archaic sounding Renaissance tune played on viols but with the light accompaniment of goblet (conga sized) drums. The drums are associated with Medieval and Renaissance music and North African music.

Then comes the ballad of Abindarraez and his two jealous lovers. The fifth track is Tres morillas me enamoran (I have fallen for three Moorish Girls). It is an instrumental version played with viols and recorder. It is a lovely piece played in a lyrical style and has the feel of cool jazz, at least to me.

Not all the pieces on this CD are exciting to listen to but if you want to find out more about this repertoire, it is a good place to start. The CD is perhaps the second by Hesperion XX, a group out of Barcelona headed by Jordi Savall. They are dominant in early music (music before 1750), especially Spanish music. There are a few expressive pieces such as the jacaras, a swaggering dance accompanied by castanette and vihuela (a precursor of the guitar) or guitar. I recall seeing somewhere on the web that the name jacaras is of Arabic origin and means something like talking back. This could be true as it was street music, prevalent in la hampa or underworld, a place where one would expect to hear plenty of people talking back to authority. This is quite a beautifully played piece and one wonders how so much sound can come from one guitar.

Another CD I would recommend is by the Atrium Musicae de Madrid and is entitled Musique Arabo-Andalouse on Harmonia Mundi France. They play classic North African/Moroccan music on Medieval instruments and do a fine job of it I might add.

Another fine and intriguing CD is by Rondinella 'Songs of the Sephardim' on the Dorian label. The Sephardim were the Jews of Spain. Another CD featuring some Sephardic songs is Tres Cuerpos, una alma (Three Bodies, One Soul) by Pedro Aledo and his group on France Telecom or al Sun. Aledo is a fine singer with a meliflous voice and his style is full of refernces to Moorish Spain. He plays Castillian 13th century canticles (cantigas), which were composed in Galician dialect (the dialect popular at the time for songs and poetry), sung poems of Ibn el Arabi, and five Sephardic songs.

Finally I would like to mention 'Musique Arabo-Andalouse du Maroc, Arabo-Andalusian Misic of Marocco, Gharnati with Amina Alaui, Ahmned Piro and his orchestra. This is classic North African music as played in our times. The singer has a most meliflous voice and is my choice of singer.

Radio Tarifa are a group of Spanish gypsy musicians or at least flamenco singers and musicians who play in a quasi North African style in a contemporary manner. I should add that they are very good and some of the tunes they play are indeed very old, one of them being a 16th century Sephardic tune put to pen by Diego Pisador, very, very rare.

You have a title, Rajput Desert Knight. Are you from Rajput? I've never been to India but people tell me I should go. A friend mentioned his visit to the Taj Mahal and said that like the Alhambra in Spain it is a must see. Another said that he spotted a dark corner, shone a torch on it and the whole thing lit up like a sky full of stars.

You talk about many Spaniards not embracing their Moorish past. In the past it was probably because of their Catholic allegiances. Now however many are beginning to embrace it. I have a friend with a surname Altable, which she considers to be of Arabic derivation. We were walking on the streets of Kowloon together and met a man from Pakistan. I told him she was descended from Muslims and he welcomed her back into the fold.

Much of the music I like to listen to can be found on Amazon.com and you can often hear music clips. Just click on listen. You can simply go to google.com and click on Hesperion XX, for instance and hear clips.

Al-Mansur
07-10-07, 02:40 PM
Iranian Jews
I was talking about Iran once with a Jewish friend, born in Israel but raised in the US. Of course Iran and the US haven't had particularly good relations since the Ayatollah's hostage taking put President Carter's career to an abrupt halt. With their hardline version of Islam one would not imagine it would be a place where Jews would want to live...particularly with some of the the recent comments by Ahmenajad (spelling?). However my friend Eretz was telling me that the Jews in Iran live in peace and do very, very well. And Eretz is about an ardent a Jew as I have ever met.

Al-Mansur
07-10-07, 02:48 PM
My friend Remo has a comment based on all the debate raging around the tolerance and intolerance of Moorish Spain: 'So there we have it. Muslim Spain was as diabolical as everywhere else..but had great architecture..and added a bit of tagine tinged intolerance.'

Sock puppet path
07-10-07, 05:03 PM
This is very interesting, Al Mansur. Can you provide us with examples of the kind of music you are referring to? Any links where we can listen to Moorish Spanish music.

It's a shame alot of Spanish do not embrace their Moorish North African heritage, which was large part of their history.

It was an imposed heritage, foreign to them, there is no doubt traces of it in the architecture and music as Al Mansur mentions.

Sock puppet path
07-10-07, 05:08 PM
My friend Remo has a comment based on all the debate raging around the tolerance and intolerance of Moorish Spain: 'So there we have it. Muslim Spain was as diabolical as everywhere else..but had great architecture..and added a bit of tagine tinged intolerance.'

As you mentioned earlier there were periods of tolerance and exchange during the muslim rule of spain but in the end the spaniards didn't desire islam.

WildBlueYonder
07-11-07, 12:38 AM
This is very interesting, Al Mansur. Can you provide us with examples of the kind of music you are referring to? Any links where we can listen to Moorish Spanish music.gypsies helped too, if you hear them both, I think the diversion happened when guitars were developed from lutes-type instruments


It's a shame alot of Spanish do not embrace their Moorish North African heritage, which was large part of their history.conquest, then imposition of a foreign culture, then 2nd class status, did not endear islam to those that did not convert,

btw, I read some where that some of the Visigoth lords converted to islam so as not to lose their lands

also, probably the same reason Syrians don't hype their Assyrians &/or Aramaic descent, whoever heard them boast about that? they're muslims now

DiamondHearts
07-11-07, 03:09 PM
You have a title, Rajput Desert Knight. Are you from Rajput? I've never been to India but people tell me I should go. A friend mentioned his visit to the Taj Mahal and said that like the Alhambra in Spain it is a must see. Another said that he spotted a dark corner, shone a torch on it and the whole thing lit up like a sky full of stars.

I'm Punjabi, but my ancestors are from ancient Rajputana. Our family is Rajput and very proud of our heritage. Punjab (land of five rivers, tributaries of the Indus) is the cradle of Indian civilization (housing the ruins of Mohenjaro, Harrapa, andalso contains the oldest Indian city, Lahore). I recommend you visit New Delhi and Agra in India, and also come to visit Lahore, Islamabad, Peshawar in Pakistan.



You talk about many Spaniards not embracing their Moorish past. In the past it was probably because of their Catholic allegiances. Now however many are beginning to embrace it. I have a friend with a surname Altable, which she considers to be of Arabic derivation. We were walking on the streets of Kowloon together and met a man from Pakistan. I told him she was descended from Muslims and he welcomed her back into the fold.

This is very nice to hear. I am glad some of the Spanish embrace their heritage. Whatever the religion, it is necessary to embrace your heritage and take pride in your ancestry.

In Pakistan, we are Muslims but we still take pride in our ancestors, even though they were of different religions, we are still from their blood and have more claim to them than others.



Much of the music I like to listen to can be found on Amazon.com and you can often hear music clips. Just click on listen. You can simply go to google.com and click on Hesperion XX, for instance and hear clips.


Iranian Jews
I was talking about Iran once with a Jewish friend, born in Israel but raised in the US. Of course Iran and the US haven't had particularly good relations since the Ayatollah's hostage taking put President Carter's career to an abrupt halt. With their hardline version of Islam one would not imagine it would be a place where Jews would want to live...particularly with some of the the recent comments by Ahmenajad (spelling?). However my friend Eretz was telling me that the Jews in Iran live in peace and do very, very well. And Eretz is about an ardent a Jew as I have ever met.

I have been to Iran before, it's a very beautiful and lovely country. Iranians of all religions, take great pride in their history and culture. Like of the Jews in the Arab world, most of the Persian Jews are Persians who simply happen to be Jews. I have noticed that in the Middle East, people will get along with each other regardless of religion or even nationality.

S.A.M.
07-11-07, 03:12 PM
Like of the Jews in the Arab world, most of the Persian Jews are Persians who simply happen to be Jews. I have noticed that in the Middle East, people will get along with each other regardless of religion or even nationality.

Yes, I can always tell who has actually lived in the Middle East by their views of the non-Muslims there. I could never tell who was a Christian or a Jew, unless they disclosed themselves to me. They use Allah in their speech as frequently as the Muslims.