Everyone the World's Navel

[gendanken]

There's a small argument I've got going on with a Mongoloid.

When was Europe thought of in terms of a whole continent? Meaning, when did we as a people begin to look at the world less selfishly- before, Rome would conquer some land and would call that new land Rome. Assyrians called theirs Assyria after conquering Rome the emipire, not Europe the continent. Mongloids called Russia whatever the Mongolod called his Kigdnom. Not Eurasia.

Its only in times, say, like Napoleon's that terms like "Europe on his lap" make any sense.

I want to know when exactly did men begin to sit down and think in terms of that continent over there- that's Asia. This one, the Americas. That over there is Africa and so on.

[guthrie]

UUmm, when they began making maps in the modern era, i think that would be the 15th century. roughly.
I'd have to really go diggin to find some decent answers though.

[Spyke]

I would agree. The mapmaking of the Renaissance period most likely. Once they began to have a clearer idea, particularly after Magellan.

[Undecided]

The idea of Europe imo came with Charlemagne, with his Holy Roman Empire. I think the genesis of Europe as a generally accepted entity was as like the rest said, when Europeans began to see that there was a world outside the "Pillars of Hercules" and there was a Huge Islamic empire on her doorstep, also pivotal was the idea of Cathy at the time due to Marco Polo.

[Mephura]

Well, well, well...
If we are going to turn to the public, let's at least be fair about it and give them the same link I gave you.

http://www.restena.lu/eurassoc/6211.htm

While it doesn't say when europe or asia first came into use as terms for the landmasses, it certainly does give us some evidence that it is much earlier than napolean's time.

If I find any more links with additional info, I will be dure to put them up.

[Mephura]

More links concerning land mass names:

Africa:
http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss1.asp?Num=3313

world names:
various ancient greek (http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20Web%20Pages/106D.html)

124 AD (http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20Web%20Pages/117.html)

More (http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20Web%20Pages/AncientL.html)

This has been a surprisingly difficult subject to find any information on.
These reconstructed maps are about the best I've found so far, besides the example from the roman's mouth in my previous post.

[wesmorris]

well wouldn't it have been the first time someone successfully established some sort of trade route that reached more that a 100 miles or so? something like that?

[guthrie]

That was well over 2,000 years ago, wes. More like 5 or 6,000. THink about Jade, or flint axes.

[Pollux V]

Well...Americans didn't really start to think of themselves as Americans up until a little before the Revolution. They thought of themselves as English or Italian. Maybe if the E.U took a firmer hold of Europe (instead of being a mere Confederacy), turned nations into states, the real idea of Europe would take hold. People wouldn't think of themselves as French or Germans, but as Europeans, like how I don't consider myself a Mainer, but rather, an American. While there is more to distinguish a Frenchman from a Germanman, like, for example, language, I think it could be done.

[CounslerCoffee]

Western Europe emerged as the site of a distinct civilization after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, as barbarian invasions separated it from the rest of the Mediterranean, where the Eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a. Byzantine Empire) survived for another millennium. In the 7th century the Arab expansion brought Islamic cultures to the southern Mediterranean shores (from Turkey to Sicily and Spain), further enlarging the differences between the various Mediterranean civilizations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe#The_origins

Looks like the 5th century to me. But I'm probably wrong. (This is a hard subject to get information about)

[guthrie]

HHmm, but thats the tricky bit, distinct civilisation isnt necessarily an awawreness of being a distinct civilisaotn and labelling it European. I would say it was more like 1100, early medieval period, when the Viking assualts had welded europe together more. Before that you merely had the frankish empire, the Byzantine empire and bits and pieces of other countries, but not an idea of Europe as Europe.

[RonVolk]

Wasn't there a Greek/Roman god or goddess called Europa? My ancient mythologies is kind of rusty. Maybe the Idea of Europe as a continent had something to do with it.

[sargentlard]

I think that naming of the continents as a whole came about when the realization hit that other lands existed, vast lands and for convenience one name had to be given to a particular area because too many different and divided nation existed among these lands. Asia for example...Sailors or the army realized that identifying the land nation by nation was too cumbersome so one name had to be applied to a large piece of land for easy catogerization...possibly a sort of an Acronym perhaps for those involved in travel.

If I had to guess (as you can tell by ambigious references and obvious lack of facts) that the naming of the continent as a whole rather than naming it the choice moniker of the most powerful nation came about really because of convenience. Why not name the whole land one name and realize that enemies, allies or travel oppertunities exist there instead of constantly having to rename maps, and remembering new names in uncertain times when war and takeover was a constant guess.

This is, however, a horribly uneducated guess.

[wesmorris]

That was well over 2,000 years ago, wes. More like 5 or 6,000. THink about Jade, or flint axes.

well, wasn't that the seed that started people thinking uhm.. non-locally?

[ElectricFetus]

"Europa was a Phoenician princess abducted to Crete by Zeus, who had assumed the form of a white bull, and by him the mother of Minos. "

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/europa.html

[guthrie]

Errm possibly, possibly not. People had been migrating around for millenia, but it was farming that made it best to stay in one place, and tahts about 6 or 7,000 years old. I think what your looking for is non locally yet aware of their locale as a definite place with its own name and customs.

[wesmorris]

Errm possibly, possibly not. People had been migrating around for millenia, but it was farming that made it best to stay in one place, and tahts about 6 or 7,000 years old. I think what your looking for is non locally yet aware of their locale as a definite place with its own name and customs.

certainly people had migrated around, but I don't think they started thinking "non-locally" until the stopped for a while and ended up hooking up with other people who had also stopped for a while but weren't anywhere near them. once there's an established trade route between two places like that, then you're starting the line of thinking that gendy's asking about.

"hmm, I don't have one here, but I here they've got one on the other end of the trade route"

[guthrie]

Sounds not too bad, but it still happened way more than 2,000 years ago. Catal Huyuk is a funky city in Turkey, its over umm, 6,000 years old i think, lived by trading obsidian glass with others.

[wesmorris]

Sounds not too bad, but it still happened way more than 2,000 years ago. Catal Huyuk is a funky city in Turkey, its over umm, 6,000 years old i think, lived by trading obsidian glass with others.

I must have missed something. Is it supposed to be less than 2000 years for some reason?

[Xerxes]

When was Europe thought of in terms of a whole continent? Meaning, when did we as a people begin to look at the world less selfishly

Thats an interesting question. Kind of reminds me of 'The Lost Continent,' (burroughs) where Europe became a memory, and was now inhabitted by savages. Why did Europe die out in that novel? Because of [b]war![b] Like you said. Because before that time, nobody had any need to leave their cozy villages. The economy was based on locally produced goods, and as soon as trade spilt over the natural borders (mountains & sea,) bands of tribes *began* to fight over control of access the precious, foreign resources. My guess is that then (whenever it was,) was the approximate time when 'Europeans' began to seperate themselves more broadly, into..lets say.. three levels: language, alliances(war and trade), and race (people we're aware of, and the 'unknowns' on the other side of the mountains. ie Russians (inbred viking red hairs,) negroes (blacks on the niger river)

Some barriers were too great to have permanent trade routes through; Africa was full of disease, siberia was too cold and anything past turkey was unnapealing for whatever reason.. Anything east was called 'asia' (which means..er..east) much like canada had the northwest territories until they split it up into alberta, saskatchewan, manitoba etc. You had people like mandeville, polo and missionaries trying to penetrate these places, no matter how upractical.

Anyways - back to the question. I don't know exactly when the first big wars were fought in Europe, but I'd guess earliest around 5-6 thousands of years ago at the beginning of the Jewish calendar. Maybe they didn't think of themselves as 'Europeans,' but there were just enough differences to have classifications, and enough commnication to know who you belonged to.

[guthrie]

"I want to know when exactly did men begin to sit down and think in terms of that continent over there- that's Asia. This one, the Americas. That over there is Africa and so on."
Then:
"well wouldn't it have been the first time someone successfully established some sort of trade route that reached more that a 100 miles or so? something like that?"


I keep using 2,000 years as a kind of a benchmark familiar to all. From the rough context of the thread, we're talking about europe mostly, and I dont think we really thought about continents etc until the last 6 or 700 years, whereas there were trade routes over 100 miles long long, before that, ie well over 2,000 years ago.

[gendanken]

Pollux:
Well...Americans didn't really start to think of themselves as Americans up until a little before the Revolution. They thought of themselves as English or Italian. Maybe if the E.U took a firmer hold of Europe (instead of being a mere Confederacy), turned nations into states, the real idea of Europe would take hold.
Do a girl a favor, will you? Ferme le bouche.

They thought of themselves as New Englanders, or more generically, colonials, and, according to you,.....................Europe doesn't even exist yet.

Sarge:
I think that naming of the continents as a whole came about when the realization hit that other lands existed, vast lands and for convenience one name had to be given to a particular area because too many different and divided nation existed among these lands. Asia for example...Sailors or the army realized that identifying the land nation by nation was too cumbersome so one name had to be applied to a large piece of land for easy catogerization...possibly a sort of an Acronym perhaps for those involved in travel
Yes, but I'm looking for targets. Like so...

Mephura:
Well, well, well...
If we are going to turn to the public, let's at least be fair about it
As in:

"Mathew published his own gospel among the Hebrews in their own tounge, when Peter and Paul were preaching the gospel in Rome and founding the church there.... .............(a big ass clause I will not risk the carpal tunnel to type out for you since I'm getting this from a book)...............

Then John, the disciple of the lord, who also leaned on his breast, himself produced his Gospel while he was living in Euphesus in Asia"
- Irenaeus, a Bishop of Lyons born somwhere around the second half of the first centry in his "Adversus Haereses."



Blasted. It seems that not only Europe was being called by name by the 4th century but here stands Miss Asia fully chirstened in the *2nd* century, well before the globetrotters and brave explores of the 14th and 15th centuries.

I concede. However, you know this already.

Xerxes:
Anyways - back to the question. I don't know exactly when the first big wars were fought in Europe, but I'd guess earliest around 5-6 thousands of years ago at the beginning of the Jewish calendar. Maybe they didn't think of themselves as 'Europeans,' but there were just enough differences to have classifications, and enough commnication to know who you belonged to.
Excellent info and all that hogwash.

I've had my questions answered already.


All other participants- grand mercis for coming. Now let my thread die.

[Redrover]

Ferme le bouche.


Try ferme la bouche, or, even better, ferme ta bouche


Then John, the disciple of the lord, who also leaned on his breast, himself produced his Gospel while he was living in Euphesus in Asia"
- Irenaeus, a Bishop of Lyons born somwhere around the second half of the first centry in his "Adversus Haereses."

Yeah, but Irenaeus used asia as a term representing the middle east, not the whole asian continent. He probably used it not as the name of a continent but as the name of a region, much like Gaul or Greece.

[gendanken]

Try ferme la bouche, or, even better, ferme ta bouche

Shut the fuck up sounds better.

I came back for this:

Yeah, but Irenaeus used asia as a term representing the middle east, not the whole asian continent. He probably used it not as the name of a continent but as the name of a region, much like Gaul or Greece.

!

Proof, please.

[Spyke]

[quoteThey thought of themselves as New Englanders, or more generically, colonials,[/quote]

Those of English background thought of themselves as English. English in Virginia, English in Massachusetts, yes, but still Englishmen.

[hypewaders]

Europe's collective identity as an operative political whole is only beginning to be seriously considered for the first time as we post. American exceptionalism will continue to accelerate the process.

[guthrie]

Not necesasrily. Remember the parcelling up of the rest of the world during the Imperial race for power and resources. I suppose if you mean purely acting as a whole, almost as one country, then yes, it is the first time really, apart from maybe the crusades.