Your War on Terror

[Tiassa]

Asleep at the wheel? Park Police fumble dirty-bomb drill

The Washington Post reports that U.S. Park Police at the Washington Monument "never noticed" a suspicious bag planted by the Office of the Inspector General on September 11, 2003. Richard Leiby (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11312-2004Jan12.html) writes:As documented in photos and a memo obtained by The Reliable Source, the feds left the bag at the rear of the obelisk for 20 minutes, then moved it near a security checkpoint where tourists lined up to enter the landmark. "Again, the unidentified bag sat there, undisrupted and unnoticed, for roughly 15 minutes," wrote Inspector General Earl E. Devaney in the memo, citing his "grave concerns for the security and public safety at these facilities."

No Park Police could be seen on patrol, except for one in an unmarked car who "appeared to be sound asleep," Devaney wrote.

The memo, now in the hands of the House Select Committee on Homeland Security, has some staffers in stitches. But Rep. Jim Turner (D-Tex.), ranking committee member, is outraged. "Without a doubt, if there had been a terrorist attack on the Washington Monument on Sept. 11, 2003, hundreds of tourists could have been killed," Turner told us yesterday. "Usually when we say someone was asleep at the wheel, it is just an expression, but this time, the Park Police were literally asleep at the wheel .... Someone needs to be held accountable for this."In a prior thread with this title (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=31620), I noted the paranoia of our holiday Orange Alert in what turned out to be one of the more humorous terrorist scares of the season. But as things seem to be, I'm left to wonder if any of it's actually worth anything.

But there you have it, folks. Your War on Terror.

Coming Soon: More adventures and miscues from the New American Century.

Source Article

• Leiby, Richard. "The Reliable Source." The Washington Post, January 13, 2004; page C01. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11312-2004Jan12.html

See Also

• SciForums.com: "High for the Holidays: Your War on Terror (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=31620)"

[CounslerCoffee]

I'll say it again, even though I've said it many times before:

The color code system does nothing, and will never do anything. All these alerts are useless. Unless you’re Fox News, at which point you can use them to fill up time between the commercials and Studio B with Shepard Smith.

Note: I'd rather have Chief Knock-a-Homer patroling my streets.

*EDIT* These new text size parameters are screwing with me.

[hypewaders]

Our monumental insecurity is one manifestation of intense psychological and political denial that is rife in the USA. Persistent realities that do not conform to precious but false popular assumptions are systematically obscured in a potentially disastrous spiral of collective denial.

Example: Angry individuals cannot be physically precluded from wreaking havoc in an open society. Therefore in America's present quest to reinforce disproven presumptions of physical invulnerability, every intitiative not directly replacing open society with a fortress police state is further self-deception.

Example: Americans are radically experimenting with the freedom vs. security balance with lasting implications to the fundamental character of our society. Public debate on the societal implications of present "security" measures being taken are collectively uncomfortable and suppressed.

Example: Motivations, underlying the violence so obliquely being reacted to, betray popular American presumptions about the surrounding world. Uncomfortable. Suppressed.

Example: Denial, especially when revealed as motivation behind failed policies, is uncomfortable. Suppressed. Denied.

America's monumental insecurity is much deeper and precarious than the base of the Washington monument.

[Tiassa]

Irony:If a nut case from overseas wants to blow up their wedding, that's when I'm right. (Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me. (Dennis Miller)So much for the shift to the right, Dennis?

Bang ... what ... three weeks gone by, and already the punchline is blown away? What happened to the more timeless jokes?

Miller aside, though, a billion dollars a week for Code Orange? Maybe we should have run the test during a Code Orange. Maybe there would have been two Park Police sleeping in their cars . . . .

[Tiassa]

Your War on Terror: German judge laments US complication of terror trial

A German judge, in acquitting terror suspect Abdelghani Mzoudi ... well, A Moroccan man accused of helping set up the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 was acquitted Thursday by a court here, whose chief judge complained from the bench that the trial had had been seriously complicated by lack of access to intelligence agency files and al Qaeda members held in secret U.S. custody.

Defendant Abdelghani Mzoudi was found not guilty "even though intelligence services may have information against him," chief judge Klaus Ruehle said in announcing the verdict. "One of the main problems in this trial was that it was not possible to get files from intelligence services."

Addressing Mzoudi, he said: "You are acquitted not because the court is convinced of your innocence, but because the evidence was not enough to convict you." (Burgess (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14898-2004Feb5.html))The issue may have serious international political ramifications. Judge Klaus Ruehle may have phrased the acquittal specifically to send a message across the Pond. Mzoudi is only the second person tried on charges directly connected to the 9/11 attacks against the United States, and the US government failed to provide information for either the prosecution or the defense.

Whether that information would have helped convict Mzoudi is nonetheless a question mark. At least one German intelligence official noted that such information as was requested would not necessarily be of any use, as the individuals in question obfuscate well enough to render the information unreliable. On top of that, a German intelligence document citing unknown sources suggests that Mzoudi was unaware of the hijackers' plans. This document apparently figured greatly in his acquittal, leaving the judge with few options: "Mr. Mzoudi . . . you have been acquitted. This may be a relief to you, but it is no reason for joy . . . What Atta, al-Shehhi and Jarrah told you after they traveled to Afghanistan, no one knows but you." (Klaus Ruehle, quoted by Burgess)Ruehle seems somewhat frustrated; yes, the verdict will upset some, but he had nothing to convict the man with.The verdict was announced at shortly 11:30 a.m. after Andreas Schulz, an attorney representing Americans who lost family members in the attacks, made a last-minute appeal to put it off and again ask the United States to release intelligence information. But the court ruled against that request. (Burgess)Comment:

I'm not sure quite how to read this. Certes, I acknowledge security concerns, but if someone has a chance to convict and lock up a guilty party to the 9/11 attacks (a mighty presumption for me, an American, to make, but work with me here), shouldn't the United States help make sure that conviction happens?

It's sarcastic enough to ask why we can't throw the Germans a bone in order to help our own situation in the War on Terror while we're happy to wrongly incarcerate how many people? (And here we can look away from the War on Terror and watch the slow parade of convicts acquitted by DNA evidence in rape and murder trials and also think about the politics of the Drug War if we don't want to think about the War on Terror.)

But the only specific informational issue raised in Burgess' article was a defense request for information from the interrogations of Ramzi bin al Shibh.

It may be that Mzoudi is, in fact, innocent, and the US simply didn't wish to acknowledge that it had nothing on him, but while I think the political ramifications of Ruehle's words might become spectacular, the idea that the US had nothing on Mzoudi to help convict him also includes the idea that a German judge really is that impetuous, so it's a coin flip that, thankfully, doesn't involve freedom fries.

But as the American case against Zacarias Moussaoui falls apart in Virginia, we're actually losing this aspect of the War on Terror. The American people have been promised justice, and at present the 9/11 count sits as follows:

• Moussaoui - accused, conviction doubt moderate to strong. (US)
• Mzoudi - accused, acquitted. (Germany)
• Motassadeq - accused, convicted, appealing; chance of winning appeal is moderate to strong; decision expected March 4, 2004. (Germany)

Which means that the official score is:

- Al Qaeda: 2,749 (http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8478555%255E401,00.html)
- World: 1 (under review)

But in a state of perpetual warfare, we must remember that it's still early in the game. And it could change to a straight shutout by this time next month.

Mr. Bush? I hear you're a baseball fan. Heck, you even owned a team. I'm sure you're aware of the jokes that go on when the Mariners, late in the season, need a win, but can't score a run against the bottom of the league? I hear you're also a smart man, which means you can figure it out from there. Every day counts, Mr. President, and if there's anything you should have learned from your time in baseball, it's that manager, coaches, and players alike must come out and play to win every day. Your opponents are working the outside corner very well, and much like the Mariners in September can demonstrate, you have to swing the bat now and then in order to get a hit. The United States cannot afford to wait for a base on balls, else it might wind up in another hit batsman. And we didn't convert the baserunner last time, so ... think, Skipper. There's a steady thunder in the house of the holy and the hometown whites are aglow. Get us a hit, Mr. President. Just get on base and start the wheels turning. We actually need to get a man in scoring position before we can bring him home. Lastly, remember that the Mariners had Griffey, Martinez, Rodriguez, Buhner ... remember when they played longball? We had Randy Johnson, for heaven's sake. We should have gone all the way. But it was without Griffey, without Buhner, without Johnson or the New Texas Gigolo that the Mariners tied the league record for wins in a season. They didn't play longball. They played smartball. Stop swinging for the fences; you ain't da Boone. We need contact. We need men on base. We need to give ourselves the opportunity to bring a few runs around, and not sit waiting for a curveball to hang like a Haymarket martyr.

We'll try the pitching metaphors later in the season.

Remember your drunken frat days? "Scooore-booooard! Scooore-booooard! Scooore-booooard!"

No, George, the numbers ain't great. Fix them, please. I would recommend that you take notes from Paul Abbot, but you've got Karl Rove to tell you when to duck.

Notes:

• Burgess, John. "Moroccan Man Acquitted of Aiding 9/11 Hijackers." Washington Post.com, February 5, 2004. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14898-2004Feb5.html
• Report, Correspondent. "9/11 death toll drops by three." News.com.au, January 23, 2004. See http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8478555%255E401,00.html

[15ofthe19]

Sweet metaphor T. Hell, a bunt would be a start at this point.

This story sounds eerily familiar to other episodes where the intelligence community is so constipated it simply can't move when it's obvious that old stalwart's of the business are hindering the process. The goal is to get these people locked up, forever. But I can just imagine some mid-level director stubbornly refusing to turn over a file because then, oh shit, the Germans might know a source. This same bs is pervasive in any level of law enforcement where making the collar, and taking credit for the conviction, supersede the goal of the process. My cynicism grows.... :mad:

[kmguru]

Park Police fumble dirty-bomb drill

There is plenty of garbage out in the open on a given day in any major city streets. So police just ignore them - from the mouth of a Boston Police

[dsdsds]

I agree with Hypewaders .. I think... (it's getting harder and harder to understand you Hype. You should tone it down a notch for us more intellectually challenged majority – and more importantly, your dumb compatriot voter.)
This is exactly what Bush & Co. wants. They are more than willing to expose any “security” gaps in systems they, themselves put into place - All to avert attention from the sources and causes of the terror. The aim for this admin is bigger defense through bigger offence and absolute control over not only the ROW but its own people’s freedom.

[hypewaders]

Sorry, ds- sometimes I can't understand my own stuff looking back either. Rather than any great intellectuality, it's more likely clumsiness obscuring whatever I may have tried to convey.

T's 2nd note recalled the catalyst for the US' "War on Terror", which still has never been quantified:

We now count 2749 9-11 victims, of which it is apparently unpublished how many were US citizens. Here is one Victim List (http://66.223.12.161/september11Victims/victims_list.htm) I found. Subtracting the toll of non-Americans (http://66.223.12.161/september11Victims/COUNTRY_CITIZENSHIP.htm), it would seem that somewhere around 2550 Americans were actually murdered by hijackers that day.

If Americans are to someday put the 9-11 tragedy into perspective, it would seem fitting that the number of American victims would be popularly known. As I recall 2001 in commonly-known round numbers regarding tragic American deaths, I believe that along with roughly 2,500 victims of terrorism, 40,000 Americans were killed in traffic, 30,000 by suicide, and 20,000 in cold blood by other Americans.

As a result of 9-11, I suspect that something far upwards of 25,000 foreign civilians have lost their lives to American retaliation. Clearer perspectives on 9-11 and the "War on Terror" it spawned will be important to the future of the US and of the world.

[Proud_Muslim]

As a Muslim and an Arab from the Middle East, let me give this advice to the Americans:

No one ever throughout history won any war against 'terrorism', the U.K. has been fighting the IRA for 30 years with no results, the same in Seri Lanka, the same in Philipenes, the same in Kashmire....etc

The only way to defeat terrorism is by doing the following:

1- Comprehensice review of America's foriegn policy: your support for Israel has to stop because the terrorist state of Israel is at the heart of the Muslim hatred and RAGE against the Americans.

2- You have to stop nourishing and supporting our dictators and tyrannts ( until now and even after 9/11, the american government is still supporting the oppressive Saudi regime, the dictators in the gulf region and the dictator in Egypt and now, it seems Colonel Ghadafi will become your friend again !! ) :mad:

3- The American government need to be seen as FAIR and JUST regarding Muslim causes all over the world ( we dont hear America complaining about the BARBARIC Russian treatments of the chechyen muslims, the same regarding the Kashmiris in India, the same regarding the treatment of Muslims in the Philipenes ).

4- Defeating those fanatic muslims can ONLY be achieved by MUSLIMS, the MODERATE MUSLIMS, who are not given any chance or space to speak out against those fanatics in the US media and indeed throughtout the world.

5- America has to drop more love instead of BOMBS on the heads of the muslims throughout the world....BUILDING instead of BOMBING.

6- America has to tackle its own christian fanatics back home who incite so much hate and bigotry against Muslims.

Imagine the reaction in the muslim world when they will see the next American president ( hopefully not this current moron ) visiting the refugee camps in GAZA and the WEST BANK and talking to poor palestineans about their pain and suffering, I am sure this would give America A HUGE SYMPATHY THROUGHOUT THE MUSLIM WORLD, IT WILL CAUSE AN EARTHQUAKE WHICH WILL SHAKE THE FANATICS' BASES AND DESTROY IT.

[Tiassa]

Defeating those fanatic muslims can ONLY be achieved by MUSLIMS, the MODERATE MUSLIMS, who are not given any chance or space to speak out against those fanatics in the US media and indeed throughtout the world.This is an incredibly difficult challenge as I see it. My own investigation of Islam is hampered by poor and limited translation into the English language.

The appearance in the West is that these voices are not there; indeed, the Western media plays a role in this, but at the same time I use mostly Western sources to point me toward the information I need to find about Islam. Stetkevych, Armstrong, even Russell--certes, they are respected, but they are all Americans. Idries Shah? Sure, he's Afghani, but he's also Sufi, so I'm not exactly tapping the main vein. (Sure, I like Mansur al-Hallaj, but is the Prophetic Lamp really that fundamental to understanding Islam?)

Personally, I think the US should be raising hell every time a progressive news editor is silenced by a government in Egypt or Iran just as surely as it should be raising hell about Mugabe's suppression of the press in Zimbabwe. Our tendency in the West is to not notice until something's on fire, and then take offense at the severity of the situation.

Regardless of the reasons, the information is not getting to the West. Though Sciforums be but a tiny corner of a vast Universe, bring them to us, please. You would know better than most around here what speaks properly of the Islamic cause. Slough off the toadie flamers and bring us the reality; the audience is listening. We're just never quite sure what it is we're hearing.

Lastly, remember that this is the West you're dealing with. Deal sympathetically, compassionately. Obviously, folks in the West don't understand why Muslims are upset. You can bring the golden and perfect truth, but if it's brought on a wave of imperfect passion, Westerners tend to shun the appearance of anger. (Just ask Howard Dean.)

[Proud_Muslim]

[font=trebuchet ms]This is an incredibly difficult challenge as I see it. My own investigation of Islam is hampered by poor and limited translation into the English language.

I agree and this is not only your fault or the west fault, it is our fault as well, we have millions of Muslims who speak prefect English, they should do more to help you understand us much clearer.

The appearance in the West is that these voices are not there; indeed, the Western media plays a role in this, but at the same time I use mostly Western sources to point me toward the information I need to find about Islam. Stetkevych, Armstrong, even Russell--certes, they are respected, but they are all Americans.

Karen Armstrong is great writer, she is very fair but yes as you said, it is not enough, you need to know from the sources.

Fortunately, more and more English speaking Islamic websites are appearing, I think we began to realize the clamity of the situation, the ignorance and the misconception about Islam is unbearable.

this site is little candle in this dark universe:

http://www.islamonline.net

And of course AL JAZEERA in English is another window:

http://english.aljazeera.net

Personally, I think the US should be raising hell every time a progressive news editor is silenced by a government in Egypt or Iran just as surely as it should be raising hell about Mugabe's suppression of the press in Zimbabwe. Our tendency in the West is to not notice until something's on fire, and then take offense at the severity of the situation.

You are right, America only get involved when things are badly damaged, I rememebr here the case of my fellow Syrian MAHER ARAR, he is Syrian but with Canadian Passport, he has been living in Canada for more than 12 years, he was stopped in one of the American airports in his way to Canada and SENT BACK to Syria instead of Canada although the American authorities know very well that our regime is very oppressive and use brutal torture against prisoners, he was tortured for 6 month in notorious Syrian prison, his wife back in Canada went mad and lauched a huge camapain against the American and the Canadian government, after huge pressure and a threat to cut the Canadian diplomatic relations with Syria, the regime there sent him back to Canada after unbearable ordeal..The American government which is the one who handed him over DID NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!!...I just wonder: IS AMERICA REALLY ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM ???????? how on earth they handed him over to a regime they know very well use torture systematiclly ???? :mad:

Regardless of the reasons, the information is not getting to the West. Though Sciforums be but a tiny corner of a vast Universe, bring them to us, please.

I am doing my best despite a barrage of hate and bigotry from some members here in sciforums.

You would know better than most around here what speaks properly of the Islamic cause. Slough off the toadie flamers and bring us the reality; the audience is listening. We're just never quite sure what it is we're hearing.

You know sometimes, all this hatred and bigotry against Islam put me off from even bothering to post, but then, I say to myself, instead of cursing the darkness, try to lit even a small candle.

Lastly, remember that this is the West you're dealing with. Deal sympathetically, compassionately. Obviously, folks in the West don't understand why Muslims are upset. You can bring the golden and perfect truth, but if it's brought on a wave of imperfect passion, Westerners tend to shun the appearance of anger. (Just ask Howard Dean.)

Point taken and observed, but the problem is we muslims are very very upset and angry, it is difficult to ask angry person to be compassionate, because we see in America an oppressive incompassionate brutal state that kills Muslims and support their enemies ( Israel ).

But again, how we are going to talk if we will shout abuse at each other ?

Your advice is highly appreciated and as camels are something very dear and a symbol of our endurance and patience throughout the centuries, we have very great proverb in our arabic culture which goes:

HE WHO GIVES ME AN ADVICE, I WILL GIVE HIM A CAMEL.

:)

[hypewaders]

I prefer Marlboro Lights, shukran.

[Proud_Muslim]

Smoking endanger your life, quit it and get a camel...I promise.

:)

[Pakman]

Touche Proud Muslim. Touche. That's the path America should follow if they want to end all this hatred.

[Eng Grez]

As a Muslim and an Arab from the Middle East, let me give this advice to the Americans:

No one ever throughout history won any war against 'terrorism', the U.K. has been fighting the IRA for 30 years with no results, the same in Seri Lanka, the same in Philipenes, the same in Kashmire....etc

The only way to defeat terrorism is by doing the following:

1- Comprehensice review of America's foriegn policy: your support for Israel has to stop because the terrorist state of Israel is at the heart of the Muslim hatred and RAGE against the Americans.

2- You have to stop nourishing and supporting our dictators and tyrannts ( until now and even after 9/11, the american government is still supporting the oppressive Saudi regime, the dictators in the gulf region and the dictator in Egypt and now, it seems Colonel Ghadafi will become your friend again !! ) :mad:

3- The American government need to be seen as FAIR and JUST regarding Muslim causes all over the world ( we dont hear America complaining about the BARBARIC Russian treatments of the chechyen muslims, the same regarding the Kashmiris in India, the same regarding the treatment of Muslims in the Philipenes ).

4- Defeating those fanatic muslims can ONLY be achieved by MUSLIMS, the MODERATE MUSLIMS, who are not given any chance or space to speak out against those fanatics in the US media and indeed throughtout the world.

5- America has to drop more love instead of BOMBS on the heads of the muslims throughout the world....BUILDING instead of BOMBING.

6- America has to tackle its own christian fanatics back home who incite so much hate and bigotry against Muslims.

Imagine the reaction in the muslim world when they will see the next American president ( hopefully not this current moron ) visiting the refugee camps in GAZA and the WEST BANK and talking to poor palestineans about their pain and suffering, I am sure this would give America A HUGE SYMPATHY THROUGHOUT THE MUSLIM WORLD, IT WILL CAUSE AN EARTHQUAKE WHICH WILL SHAKE THE FANATICS' BASES AND DESTROY IT.

1 - Israel is not a terrorist state and no.

2 - No. Moderates would be eradicated by extremists.

3 - No. Once again, not caving in to extremists equals oppression and "unfairness" in your eyes.

4 - No. They speak out daily in the West. It is in their own countries that they are oppressed by extremists.

5 - No. We give plenty of money to governments for "building."

6 - No. First Amendment, and all that. We're not tearing up the Constitution so Abdel Raziz al-Schmoe in Cairo feels that the Christians aren't coming to make him an infidel.

What a load of Islamist BS. All six points, inherently tilted toward appeasement. Appeasement showed its worth at Munich. Appeasement showed its worth in New York.

Extremist Muslims started this fight, and we're sure as hell going to end it. The United States has been more successful at fighting terrorism than any other country in history. In the space of three years, we did more than in the past 30 at fighting terrorism.

The differences between the IRA, Sri Lanka and Islamic terrorism is that the IRA was fighting for a negotiable goal. The Sri Lankan terrorists - whose conflict over the years took 60,000 lives, far more than those in Chechnya or Israel - was fighting for a negotiable goal.

The IRA's agenda was not destruction of an entire society. The Sri Lankan terrorists' goal was not the destruction of an entire society.

The goal of Islamic terrorists is that of the destruction of not just one society. The goal of Islamic terrorists is the destruction of any and all societies save the one they deem acceptable. Negotiations are pointless.

The unrivaled, unparalleled power of the United States presents a situation unlike any before seen in history. The power of the United States literally crisscrosses the globe. We do not need to send the Marines into Cairo. The Egyptian government will round up the terrorist we want for us. We do not need to send troops to Kashmir or the Phillipines. India and the Phillipines are more than capable of handling their situations on their own, and we give them advice, intelligence, organization, coordination and money.

There has never been such a coalition of nations arrayed against terrorism. Even countries where they draw their support from have governments that are actively opposed to them. Anti-terrorist cooperation has rolled along unfettered, even with the infighting about Iraq amongst the nations of the West.

You portray Islamic terrorists as some kind of unstoppable juggernaut, Proud_Muslim. The unstoppable juggernaut is on the other side. You're not just dealing with the Zionist Entity and the Great Satan; you're dealing with Britain and France and Germany and Egypt and Jordan and Turkey and Japan and South Korea and India and Australia and the Phillipines and South Africa and Italy and Russia and Poland and quite literally the entire world.

The interconnected world works against the terrorist. The level of coordination and cooperation among different nations, which exceeds that of any other point in history, works against the terrorist.

The key is money. To make more money, countries grow closer together. Terrorists survive on the inefficiency and divided nature of their opponents. If it was the 1920s, I'm sure you'd be quite right. Nations were truly separate entities unto themselves. It is not the 1920s. The actual differences between the United States and Canada and France and Germany and Britain and Italy and Japan and Australia are near-nonexistent. That works against the terrorist.

Appeasement. Right.

[Tiassa]

One of my favorite, most diversely applicable philosophic gems collected through time:In the Wind of the mind arises the turbulence called I.
It breaks; down shower the barren thoughts.
All life is choked.
This desert is the Abyss wherein is the Universe. The Stars are but thistles in that waste.
Yet this desert is but one spot accursèd in a world of bliss.
Now and again Travellers cross the desert; they come from the Great Sea, and to the Great Sea they go.
As they go they spill water; one day they will irrigate the desert, till it flower.
See! five footprints of a Camel! V. V. V. V. V.

(Perdurabo (http://www.drizzle.com/~slmndr/uncle_al/lies/45.html))Just something that struck me about camels.

In my life, and even in my time at Sciforums (it's there about three years ago or so) I focused largely on a frustration that was part of a traditional process in American sociopolitical life and held Christians responsible as the latest main offender. The process is simple; if you are of an "honest" and "liberal" politic, you find yourself pressed to the point that you must either surrender or violate your principles. What happens is that one side of the equation can, theoretically, continually back up in compassionate allowance of the errors of the other. Yet the other continually advances without adjusting their perception of the situation.

I share a lot of values with the Judeo-Christian experience in America. What seems deviant about me in comparison with my "average American" neighbors stems from conflicts originating within the confines and conditions of that Judeo-Christian experience. For years, I found communication with "the other side" impossible, as I was always willing to make allowances in perception for differences in fundamental beliefs, but found no such compassion among those who disagreed.

While Christianity and Christians are not solely responsible for this process in America, the process is largely responsible for the continual resetting of lower and lower standards for American education, politics, and conduct. In the Christian context, it is how we arrive at an internecene American conflict in which treating everybody fairly is somehow discriminatory against Christians. (We see this conflict of justice being unjust in the religions of American "Capitalism" and American "Democracy" every day, as well.)

I'm very happy for what progress has occurred in Northern Ireland over the last decade or so. It sure beats the 1980s, when I first became aware of "terrorists" and "guerillas," among other things. But in my heart's principles I'm quietly pissed at the fact that the British will never apologize to Ireland for centuries of unnecessary crap. And, admittedly, some of that crap is necessary to the "learning curve" of social relations, but at some point it just got ridiculous.

The aggressors keep coming, the victims and the "enlightened compassionate" keep falling back in response to abstract principles which the aggressors are happy to abuse like altar boys.

Flip a coin in Israel. The establishment of an Israeli state makes a tremendous amount of sense according to an old politic that finally started crumbling in 1989 or 1990 for me, in Catholic school. But within that politic is a cheap and simplistic rendering of the situation. A child might draw mommy and daddy fighting, but one cannot necessarily extract the real issues from that depiction. More information is required, and over time one comes to see the establishment of Israel as just the latest in a millennia-long real-estate squabble that has cost the world much more than it has ever given.

What does that say of present-day Israelis? I'm unsure; I've never kidded myself that it was anything other than a war going on over there.

I live in a world where the historical tradition is colored by such notable paradoxes as the respectable character and brilliant mind of Lord Acton arguing on behalf of the American Confederacy and slavery. I live in an America where villains are folk heroes, and bright minds are vilified to fill in the abhorrent vacuum. (How is it that, all these years on, someone so reviled as Emma Goldman--once called the most feared woman in the world in her day--could be revealed as nearly prophetic on some issues is a testament to the America I live in.)

But in the end, what to do about the process and what it brings is a difficult question. Oftentimes, the only real option is to sacrifice a principle in order to gamble on an unlikely result.

I'm 30 years old. Trying to be a "nice guy" over the years has cost me almost every one of my defining principles. And yet the woman who has demanded over the years that such extraneous and inefficient baggage as principles should be thrown out one by one now wonders why I'm so dispassionate and without certain sympathies. It hasn't occurred to her that they're lying beside the highway here and there, parched to dust or rotting in the rain.

And yet, there's nothing about this paring away of principles that is new or uncommon. That I feel this way, I'm told, is not unique. Turns out, if you look closely, it's the primary factor lending to what wisdom there is in the infamous Churchill quote: Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.

In other words, if you haven't surrendered to the absurd, if you haven't given over to sublimated vices and the appearance of conformity, if you haven't given up those things that make your life worth living to you and settled yourself proudly and confidently amid your newfound numbness, you're an idiot.

Sorry, Winston. You can't crush the seeds of what makes a person human. You can't destroy them forever. The wrecked carcasses of fantastic flowers strewn across the desert whisper only the slightest hints of what still germinates.

Camus knew it. Just because Sisyphus is happy doesn't mean he's smart.

And so you wander on, seeking evidence of the passing of the Travelers--the footprints of a camel?--hoping to find the flowers amid the barren wastes.

At least the garden grows. Whether or not we enjoy its fruits is as simple as stopping to smell the roses and looking afresh at the world around us.

What to do about those who would steal away the blossoms and tear away the roots is a different question entirely. By the metaphysical at least, they have the right to. And, as you know, with so many people in this world, that you can is sufficient reason why you should.

Amid the waste and wreckage, does the King of Fools smile and say, "It is good"?

[hypewaders]

Finding meaning amid the waste and wreckage of human relations on any scale requires no creed, but gets easier in the experience of every selfless, simple, minute, mocked, and courageous act of love.

[Proud_Muslim]

1 - Israel is not a terrorist state and no.

That is it....no way to discuss with someone who think Israel is not terrorist state....hell, even some jews say Israel is indeed terrorist state:

http://www.nkusa.org

http://www.jewsnotzionists.com

ISRAELIS vs ARABS: WHO ARE THE REAL TERRORISTS?

http://www.koshertaxscam.com/atroc/

Appeasement. Right.

You guys are living in a state of self denial....keep sleeping dude.

:rolleyes:

[spidergoat]

1- Comprehensice review of America's foriegn policy: your support for Israel has to stop because the terrorist state of Israel is at the heart of the Muslim hatred and RAGE against the Americans.
Let them hate, that's what they do best anyway. Israel does not strap bombs to it's children in order to influence the political climate. Good fences make good neighbors! If we did not support Israel, they would be besieged on all sides by the muslims, and be forced to war, which they would surely win, again.
2- You have to stop nourishing and supporting our dictators and tyrannts ( until now and even after 9/11, the american government is still supporting the oppressive Saudi regime, the dictators in the gulf region and the dictator in Egypt and now, it seems Colonel Ghadafi will become your friend again !! )
We have to deal with whoever is in power. Why don't you stop creating dictators and tyrants that we have to deal with?
3- The American government need to be seen as FAIR and JUST regarding Muslim causes all over the world ( we dont hear America complaining about the BARBARIC Russian treatments of the chechyen muslims, the same regarding the Kashmiris in India, the same regarding the treatment of Muslims in the Philipenes ).
Perhaps when muslims become fair and just in fighting their causes, rather than resorting to terror.
4- Defeating those fanatic muslims can ONLY be achieved by MUSLIMS, the MODERATE MUSLIMS, who are not given any chance or space to speak out against those fanatics in the US media and indeed throughtout the world.
Talk is cheap, no amount of talk will defeat fanatical muslims, they are institutionally closed-minded.
5- America has to drop more love instead of BOMBS on the heads of the muslims throughout the world....BUILDING instead of BOMBING.
They ARE bombs of love. Feel the warm embrace of a vaporizing cloud, the only thing sure to warm the fanatical muslim's heart.
6- America has to tackle its own christian fanatics back home who incite so much hate and bigotry against Muslims.
In America, you are free to hate whoever you wish, it is none of the government's business.

[Proud_Muslim]

Let them hate, that's what they do best anyway. Israel does not strap bombs to it's children in order to influence the political climate.

Oh Yeah, Israel does worse, they send their planes to bomb palestienans sleeping in their homes, something more disgusting than the suicide bombers.

Beside: ' what is the difference between Palestinean suicide martyer using the only mean available to him to deliver the bomb and an Israeli pilot wrapping himself with AMERICAN F16 to deliver the bomb ???????????

http://www.koshertaxscam.com/atroc

Good fences make good neighbors!

Build your RACIST WALL on your land not on the palestinean land, but again, since when the jews were that considerate about others ??

If we did not support Israel, they would be besieged on all sides by the muslims, and be forced to war, which they would surely win, again.

what a load of bullshit, Israel was kicked out from lebanon in 1982 by the Syrian army and later in 2000 and after 20 years of war with SMALL group of freedom fighters ( Hizbollah ) Israel was defeated and was forced to FLEE south lebanon... :D

We have to deal with whoever is in power. Why don't you stop creating dictators and tyrants that we have to deal with?

Are all jews like you ?? it is you who create them...because you jews know very well once we have democracies in the ME, your terrorist state will evaportate.

Perhaps when muslims become fair and just in fighting their causes, rather than resorting to terror.

Terrorism is like beauty, it is in the eyes of the beholder.

Talk is cheap, no amount of talk will defeat fanatical muslims, they are institutionally closed-minded.

Like the zionist jews.

They ARE bombs of love. Feel the warm embrace of a vaporizing cloud, the only thing sure to warm the fanatical muslim's heart.

Islam is now stealing the sleep from your eyes....you are very scared from small bunch of the so called 'extremists'' !!

In America, you are free to hate whoever you wish, it is none of the government's business.

I did not know you speak on behlaf of America !! :rolleyes:

[Rick]

Posted by Proud Muslim

The American government need to be seen as FAIR and JUST regarding Muslim causes all over the world ( we dont hear America complaining about the BARBARIC Russian treatments of the chechyen muslims, the same regarding the Kashmiris in India, the same regarding the treatment of Muslims in the Philipenes ).


What the hell do you mean by Kashmiris in India? Do YOU Know what the real issue of Kashmir is? Did you know that Kashmiris are a subject of terror in India and they have been terrorised by the the Pakistan Ocuppied Kashmir training camps.

When you said dictator; you should have said President Musharraf.His duality and inefficient administartion has become talk of town.He recently let a Nuclear scientist go away after he leaked information to Iran etc! How did he? Needless to say that Pakistan's Dictator is not sure how much havoc he has caused and the whole world knows what exactly has happened,and that Musharraf was an accomplice in doing so.

India has been subjugated to terrorism for almost a decade now.America was attacked only once which killed many people.My condolences,But in Case of India America refuses to admit that Pak occupied Kashmir has Terrist Camp despite the information given to them on a regular basis.

Did you know that free and Fair elections were held in Kashmir recently?And Zillions of poeple participated in these Elections.

Pakistan says,Kashmir is an issue.Yes it is.POK is an issue and India wants this POK back and reunited with Kashmir.Pakistan says,kashmir needs to be in Pakistan because of Muslim population and do you know that terrorists regularly target Hindu Kashmiri Pandts there so that they could leave Kashmir?Not only that Sikhs were Targeted recently by militancy in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.

India tried Lahore peace process,and look what happened?!! They did Kargil? right? and who was the leader of Pakistan then? Nawaz Shariff? what happened to him,he was sent to exile! just when peace process was around the corner.
Both nations are trying hard today to find their lost brotherhood back.India and Pak faught their independence together under Mahatma Gandhiji.Pakistan is fond of Bollywood films,Lahore loves Indian Films and serials.Indians Love Pakistani plays.Both the countried speak same langauge.Both the countries have common passion : Cricket!.You mustnt forget: there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan.And they live excellent lives.And contribute to worlds fastest growing economy.

bye!

[Rick]

1 - Israel is not a terrorist state and no.

2 - No. Moderates would be eradicated by extremists.

3 - No. Once again, not caving in to extremists equals oppression and "unfairness" in your eyes.

4 - No. They speak out daily in the West. It is in their own countries that they are oppressed by extremists.

5 - No. We give plenty of money to governments for "building."

6 - No. First Amendment, and all that. We're not tearing up the Constitution so Abdel Raziz al-Schmoe in Cairo feels that the Christians aren't coming to make him an infidel.


Engrez,

I am grateful to you for clarifying India's position on War on Terrorism.It has experienced this phenomenon for a long time.And all of this has been agenda of POK camps,needless to say that Pakistan knows about this,But situation has become uncontrollable in Pakistan too recently.Indians have raised these issuess in front of U.S. lots of times.The U.S.in recent times has provided India with great help.FBI offices have recently been opened.But India asserts that it wouldnt require any mediation of U.S.,since it would like the talks to be bilateral.Pakistan and India are moving towards a solution which i hope would be a peaceful end to the whole process.Both the countries have recently warmed up their cold relations.As i said earlier,Pakistan and India know each other,they just need to sit down and have a heart to heart talk on issues.POK camps will be an issue raised in Pakistan.I am sure Musharraf wont faler this time.Also,i think India warned to world recently about the leakage of Nuclear Secrets.This is where India has an advantage of Political maturity.India has an outstanding record of Secularist culture with some minor incidents happening here and there and is sole example which it presents to all the other third world countries as a stable democracy for more than 50 years.India is moving fast towards Capitalism,as Disinvestment continues,The countries has shown great signs of overall growth with heightened up stock markets due to openness with foreign investments.

Let Kashmir issue not be a Nuclear flash point.Indians have had enough of this Terrorism.Muslims in India (As a Hindu,I have many of them as great pals) are amazed at what these imbecile jehadies and their Agenda.Quaran's mentioned Jehad needless to say has lost its meaning .

bye!

[spidergoat]

Beside: ' what is the difference between Palestinean suicide martyer using the only mean available to him to deliver the bomb and an Israeli pilot wrapping himself with AMERICAN F16 to deliver the bomb ?

What's the difference between a bank robber that kills an innocent person and the cop who, in the course of shooting him, also kills an innocent person?

Build your RACIST WALL on your land
According to your views on Saudi Arabia, a country should be allowed to do what they wish, including restricting the travel of certain minorities.

Are all jews like you ?? it is you who create them...because you jews know very well once we have democracies in the ME, your terrorist state will evaportate.
No, most Jews are not atheists. Yes, when the ME consists of peaceful democracies, Israel will not have to fight terrorism anymore, and will cease to be accused of it.

Like the zionist jews.
Zionism is no longer an issue, the Jews have their state, and yes, they are closed minded enough to not even consider dissolving it.

I did not know you speak on behlaf of America !!
I don't know what you mean, it is perfectly legal to hate Islam, and even promote bigotry. It is public opinion, not federal law that must answer it.

you are very scared from small bunch of the so called 'extremists'' !! Yes, that's true. What's your point?

[joe smith]

Jews have an undeniable right to their homeland. They occupied Judea two thousand years ago and they occupy it again today as Israel.

[Pakman]

What's the difference between a bank robber that kills an innocent person and the cop who, in the course of shooting him, also kills an innocent person?

Bad analogy. Israel has the decision on whether they want to target terrorist leaders in civilian areas or not.

No, most Jews are not atheists. Yes, when the ME consists of peaceful democracies, Israel will not have to fight terrorism anymore, and will cease to be accused of it.

I'm sure the Middle East can set up a democracy once America stops supporting monarchies and dictatorships there.

[Pakman]

Jews have an undeniable right to their homeland. They occupied Judea two thousand years ago and they occupy it again today as Israel.

So do the Native Americans in America. They been living here for hundreds of years. So they have an undeniable right to their land. Why not give it to them?

[Undecided]

Jews have an undeniable right to their homeland. They occupied Judea two thousand years ago and they occupy it again today as Israel.

Jews have a right to that land, but not now.

[Tiassa]

9/11 Update: Bad Guys blank World Fellowship

Updating the score as we head to the next inning.
But as the American case against Zacarias Moussaoui falls apart in Virginia, we're actually losing this aspect of the War on Terror. The American people have been promised justice, and at present the 9/11 count sits as follows:

• Moussaoui - accused, conviction doubt moderate to strong. (US)
• Mzoudi - accused, acquitted. (Germany)
• Motassadeq - accused, convicted, appealing; chance of winning appeal is moderate to strong; decision expected March 4, 2004. (Germany)

Which means that the official score is:

- Al Qaeda: 2,749
- World: 1 (under review)

But in a state of perpetual warfare, we must remember that it's still early in the game. And it could change to a straight shutout by this time next month.

The score has changed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3531501.stm).

At present, the bad guys are blanking the rest of the world. Justice, thus far unaccounted for in the War on Terror, may well be the only actual beneficiary of this new development, as Mounir al-Motassadeq won his appeal against conviction, the German Federal Criminal Court threw out the verdict, and ordered a new trial. Presiding judge, Klaus Tolksdorf, said the evidence against Motassadeq was not sufficient for a conviction."The fight against terrorism cannot be a wild, unjust war," Klaus Tolksdorf said.

"A conflict between the security interests of the executive and the rights to defence of the accused cannot be resolved to the disadvantage of the accused,"

He added that although Mr Motassadek was "far from being beyond suspicion", but had a right to a new trial if legal standards were below those he expected.

"We are announcing a verdict here that we do not expect will be greeted with complete agreement," (BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3531501.stm))According to the BBC, Andreas Schulz, a lawyer representing American relatives of victims, said that the verdict would "surely meet with incomprehension" among his clients.

As we go to the break, preparing for the Spring Offensive, the score:

• Al Qaeda: 2,749
• World: 0

An appeal to President George W. Bush, Jr. -

Mr. President? Mr. President?! All eyes are on us, in a way. Surely, the situation isn't incomprehensible to you, is it? Admittedly, the families of 9/11's victims need justice, and it may well be that their incomprehension will not be of the fact that the Motossadeq conviction has been thrown out, but perhaps it will be more directly related to the question of how this was allowed to happen. German judges seem to have made it clear throughout that they think this man is guilty. But they cannot and apparently will not set aside the rule of law, which is the declared foundation for justice, in order to tack Motossadeq to the wall.

The evidence compelling this decision comes from fragments acknowledged unofficially to come from Ramzi bin al-Shibh, currently in American custody. The BBC reinforces the standing notion that the United States government is not doing enough to assist its international neighbors in the prosecution of known terrorists.

Did I say, "us"?

I meant, "you."

All eyes are on you, Mr. President. As it stands, Al Qaeda is shutting us out.

Please, sir, help the world help us.

The irony of it is that if you actually did, as conspiracy theorists suggest, have bin Laden tucked away somewhere to be hauled out as an election surprise--a most distasteful accusation, I admit--now would be a very good time to pull the rabbit out of your hat.

As you launch your advertising campaign for re-election, as you tell Americans so eloquently that you know what needs to be done, your critics have launched their first salvo--If you know, why isn't it being done?

Perhaps, Mr. President, you might bear in mind that if security must come before both freedom and justice, you can help secure the nation greatly if you assist other nations in the prosecution of persons accused of facilitating the attacks which destroyed our towers, killed 2,749 people, and shattered thousands, if not millions of American lives.

All eyes are on you, Mr. President. All eyes are on you.

• BBC. "9/11 prisoner wins German retrial." March 4, 2004. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3531501.stm

See Also

• BBC. "'We're Canada's al-Qaeda family." March 4, 2004. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3534195.stm

(I'm not ready to make a post or topic out of this article; amid all the grim things in the world, there is still the idea that Osama bin Laden, "has issues with his wife, and he has issues with his kids, financial issues, you know, the kids aren't listening, the kids aren't doing this and that." Really, I ... I know it's not exactly proper, but ph@ck, that strikes me as absurdly funny.)

[guthrie]

Strictly speaking, since you seem to be counting all the 11/09 dead, you should count some of those killed in Afghanistan and, for example, I think it was Oman they Hellfired' a car carrying some terrorist suspects. That would up the count a bit.

[Tiassa]

I'm an American. Due process and "justice" still count for something. Well, in principle. After all, this is America ....

Sure, "Dead or Alive," sounds good, feels good to say. But it's so 19th century.

As Judge Tolksdorf explained, "A conflict between the security interests of the executive and the rights to defence of the accused cannot be resolved to the disadvantage of the accused."

And when the judge knows he's guilty, and has nothing to convict someone on, and a gray zone so wide that Ramzi bin al-Shibh can fill it?

We're willing to bomb and kill, but not support the due-process prosecution of terrorist suspects, including those accused of aiding and abetting the effort that killed so many people in New York?

Might bring carnage. Might bring satisfaction for some Americans. But it won't bring justice; you know, that thing sworn to in that pledge of allegiance the President is so intent on forcing children to recite?

For the world community, blowing up bad guys is a null exercise at best, and a losing proposition at worst. You're likely to inspire more bad guys than you get rid of. Justice is just too hard and slow a process for an electoral cycle in America.

[Tiassa]

Say "WoT"? Psychic tip cancels flight

That's right, folks. You did not read that incorrectly.

The Associated Press is reporting that American Airlines flight 1304, from Southwest Florida International Airport, was subject to search by bomb-sniffing dogs after a purported psychic called in a tip. The flight was later canceled for labor and hour considerations. The TSA concedes that the tip was "unusual."

No bomb was found.

• CNN. "Psychic tip prompts bomb search on plane." March 27, 2004. See http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/03/27/psychic.plane.ap/index.html

[Tiassa]

Syrian family seeking asylum wins reprieve in Ninth Circuit
Hamoui: "I still believe in America. I still believe in justice . . . ."

It should be noted at the outset that the Seattle Post-Intelligencer (P-I) is traditionally the more liberal of Seattle's two major newspapers. It is also the home newspaper of Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist David Horsey.

(1) Skolnik, Sam. "INS moves to deport prominent Syrian." Seattle P-I, March 8, 2002. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/61449_ins08.shtml
(2) Jamieson, Robert L. "Grocer himself turned dream into nightmare." Seattle P-I, March 9, 2002. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/61613_robert09.shtml
(3) Iwasaki, John. "Syrian family's joy is muted." Seattle P-I. November 19, 2002. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/61449_ins08.shtml
(4) Olsen, Lisa. "Local INS director is abruptly replaced." Seattle P-I. December 20, 2002. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/100855_ins20.shtml
(5) Lange, Larry. "Speakers at Day of Remembrance warn of post-9/11 perils." Seattle P-I, February 10, 2003. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/107961_japanese10.shtml
(6) Editorial Board. "Defiant Justice Dept. makes no apologies." Seattle P-I, June 8, 2003. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/125457_righted8.html
(7) Editoral Board. "Justice with mercy due Syrian family." Seattle P-I, March 14, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/164568_familyed.html
(8) McGann, Chris. "Syrian's asylum hopes lifted in appeals court." Seattle P-I, March 30, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/166921_hamoui30.html

It goes on. In fact, if you're willing to get a free registration to the site, you can see the list of all their coverage of this story in the archive (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/search/PIsearch.asp?rank=date&UserQuery=hamoui&a_type=all&x=0&y=0).

The Story So Far:

In 1992, Safouh Hamoui, a former Syrian military pilot came to the United states on a short-term tourist visa. As the P-I explains:The arrests stem from the "Absconder Apprehension Initiative," quietly launched by Attorney General John Ashcroft in late January. The program targets 314,000 foreign nationals who have ignored past court orders to leave the country, with an initial focus on the 6,000 illegal immigrants from mostly Middle Eastern countries thought to be home to al-Qaida cells . . . .

. . . . According to court papers, Safouh Hamoui, 50, arrived in New York in October 1992 -- two months after Ismail, 42, and their two daughters entered in Los Angeles. All were admitted on short-term tourist visas.

Six months later, Safouh Hamoui requested asylum for himself and his family. Four years after that, in February 1997, an immigration judge denied the request, and ordered the family deported. The Justice Department's Board of Immigration Appeals rejected their appeal in 1998, and Hamoui appealed again, to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals -- the court of last resort.

Two years later, in June 2000, the family lost that petition as well, and were ordered to report to the INS for deportation. They never showed up. (1)In the early going, P-I columnist Robert Jamieson, Jr., wrote, Barring a miracle, the family will go. Some friends fear that if they are deported to Syria they'll be considered spies because they have been gone so long.

Hogwash! They could have been home much sooner, but they wanted to stay here in America, by any means necessary.

So they broke our rules. Now they have to face the consequences.

No exceptions allowed. (2)And yet yesterday, the P-I reported on the latest development of this case. The 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals has once again aimed its critical trumpets squarely at the federal government, and also noted a shoddy legal defense:During a hearing in Seattle before the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, the harsh skepticism long focused on Safouh Hamoui -- a former Syrian pilot who came to this country in 1992 -- suddenly shifted to the government.

The three-judge panel blasted the Justice Department's handling of the immigration case and openly supported key contentions being raised by Hamoui's new lawyers.

The panel said it was clear that Hamoui had not received competent legal assistance. The appeals court also indicated that the Board of Immigration Appeals should have considered testimony outlining the dangers the Hamoui family faces if returned to Syria.

The bureau also misapplied the standard for "likely fear of torture" as outlined by the International Convention Against Torture, the appeals panel said.

Afterward, Justice Department lawyer Andrew MacLachlan had little to say.

"It was a good dialogue with the court," he said. (8)And you know, the rest of the links are yours to read or not. They're mostly for your information if you're so inclined. The P-I has been vocal on the Hamoui story ... pretty much the entire time.

I'm of the opinion that this is one of the travesties of our War on Terror. These articles, of course, speak rather quite ill of the Syrian government, but hey, the US is following all manner of tyrant down the road to nowhere. I mean, the US government, especially in the PNAC age, ought to be waving this guy around like a banner--rubbing Syria's nose in it. And, yes, Clinton well could have done that nose-rubbing if he wanted to, but at least he didn't try to deport the guy in a panicked reaction to terrorism.

Yes. Sometimes we must challenge our own the rules if it's what's best for human beings. Mr. Jamieson's article opens with a simple question: "Rules are rules, but sometimes they should be broken, right?"

Well ... yes. Not all rules are good rules. Sometimes rules do the wrong thing. In an age when politicians live by broken rules, Yes, we can occasionally accommodate specific needs for the right reasons.

And so finds our Ninth Circuit.

The Hamoui family's case is one of the more powerful dramas of our War on Terror. Self-sufficient, respectably conducted in the community, family-oriented ... these are the sorts of people we should want to bring to this country. I'm all for the poor, the tired, the huddled masses, but I tend to think that when you get right down to "political reality," people with the apparent qualities of the Hamoui family who also happen to feel as if they're on the run from a regime your government doesn't like . . . .

What? What am I missing?

Oh, yeah.

Knee.

Jerk.

On the east coast, where the sun rises, we have a statue that symbolically welcomes those who come to the United States with hopes for the future. And if they have to run all the way out here to the sunset before they can find Justice in America, then so be it.

And this on a waxing moon . . . .

[Tiassa]

Your War on Terror: "Party at Don's"?!
Directions to Rummy's found at Starbucks

Wouldn't you? Or, at least, wouldn't you pause to think about it? If you found, sitting on a table in Starbuck's, handwritten directions to some famous person's house, wouldn't you think about publishing it on the web, or distributing "Party at Don's house!" flyers?

Well, one citizen didn't go so far as that, but rather handed over some notes discovered in a DC-area Starbucks, including a pencil-drawn map from the Pentagon to Donald Rumsfeld's house, to the Center for American Progress, another useless left-wing policy think tank."Our plan had military plans to attack Al Q -- called on def to draw up targets in Afg -- develop mil options."

There's an underlined notation "DR" in the margin and a quotation, apparently from DR, perhaps Rumsfeld, to "Stay inside the line -- we dont need 2 ruff [or puff] this at all. we need 2b careful as hell about it. This thing will go away soon and what will keep it alive will be one of us going over the line" . . . .

. . . . The CAP folks have been having so much fun with this, they've taken to providing answers for the "Possible Q's." For example, in answer to the question, "Why did the Administration think it had 7 months to develop policy?" the CAP people offer: "We made a point of ignoring as long as possible anything that was recommended to us by the Clinton Administration." (Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37321-2004Mar30.html))What's odd is that the first thing I thought was, "What will Franken say?" What? It's like T-minus six minutes to "Morning Sedition" time as I write this. Might as well give it a listen.

But how's this administration on security? Someone's gonna be fired, that's for sure.
______________________

• Kamen, Al. "Note to Eric: U Need 2B More Careful." Washington Post, March 31, 2004; page A23. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37321-2004Mar30.html

[hypewaders]

"The Bush administration has scuttled a plan to increase by 50 percent the number of criminal financial investigators working to disrupt the finances of Al Qaeda, Hamas and other terrorist organizations to save $12 million, a Congressional hearing was told on Tuesday." - NYT 03-31-04 (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/31/business/31irs.html)

"Four Americans were attacked and their bodies subjected to barbaric maltreatment. The acts we have seen were despicable and inexcusable," he said. "They violate the tenets of all religions including Islam as one of the foundations of civilized society... Their deaths will not go unpunished." -Viceroy Bremer (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0401IraqBremer01-ON.html) 04-01-03

The present American administration prefers retaliation and escalation to intelligence. This is a leading reason why the War on Terror is having devastating results while terrorist groups are diversifying and growing.

[crazy151drinker]

PM,

Last time I checked, the EXTREMISTS in IRAN booted out all of the Legitimate MODERATES in their govt. The EXTREMISTS fixed the Elections. So your 'fix it' theory is CRAP.

And on another note: Has a terrorist group ever WON? NOPE. Why? Because they are nothing but an extremely small group of individuals who use fear to try to force the general public to accept their demands. If youre so concerned about the WEST's 'hatred', then maybe Muslims should stop flying planes into buildings and blowing up buses. Its bad for public relations.
What you need PM is a revolution. But it takes a massive amount of support for that, something which your extemist views will never have.

[hypewaders]

Considering the fundamentalist revolution that occured in Iran subsequent to US "nation building" there, discounting the potential for further fundamentalist revolutions is questionable.

[crazy151drinker]

hype,

The revolution in Iran was our fault. I can admit to that.
However, as we have seen, the Extremists are no longer supported by the population. They have become what they replaced.

[hypewaders]

In any desperate times anywhere, locals will always blame outsiders first. Whatever becomes of Iraq, America will be blamed by most local and regional Arabs, far more than will be Saddam Hussein, the Ba'ath Party, Sectarian fighting, shadowy "insurgents", "terrorists", or any Iraqi or Arab contributors to the increasingly likely civil war ahead. Even without justification, of which there is plenty (considering the invasion was entirely elective for the US) Americans will be blamed for the death of Iraq.

Iraqi trust for the USA is now extremely precarious, and is the most decisive factor in what is going to transpire in the near future. Without a rapid, massive and genuine transition to international peacekeepers, and without a bona-fide Iraqi government that can bind a fractious, destroyed country into one again, Iraqi trust in America will continue to erode.

At the breaking point, the collapse is likely to be very sudden, much like the collapse of the Ba'athists, with collaborators under dire threat of retribution, and sectarian fighting on at least 3 sides. US policymakers lack the nuance and subtlety that would be the only way to encourage a viable government to form that is not perceived as a puppet regime.

Of course Iraqis do not wish for civil war. Neither did the Lebanese. But when outside influences create a power vacuum, and fail to install a legitimate replacement, things can spin out of control very suddenly. The last fleeting expression if Iraqi nationalism could easily expend itself in a last spasm to expel Americans, and at such a juncture US firepower, however escalated, will be helpless to regain control of the situation.

The occupation is already hopelessly muddled with many other issues including the Arab-Israeli conflict, the "War on Terror", Ahmed Chalabi (and other mistrusted exile leaders), and the tenuous shift of balance between Sunni, Shia, and Kurds, and Chaldeans. Considering these divisive factors along with gathering disillusion with US occupiers, the chances for any lasting government created by any process under US occupation is, tragically, very remote. The PNAC dream of Arab receptivity to American-sponsored self-government has already run aground.

Because the US will increasingly receive the blame, it is becoming politically impossible for the US to forge a viable Iraq from a unilateralist, interventionist base. The present coalition is widely perceived as a meaningless fig-leaf. Unless elections somehow bring a sea-change in Iraqi security, the resulting government will also lack legitimacy. The only sure chance for averting an increasingly likely cataclysm is for the peacekeeping/occupation/transition to be de-Americanized as rapidly as possible. Presently, there is no evidence of a concrete plan to do this, which will be another heavy burden of blame for American leaders who commited forces while lacking fundamental understanding of the implications.

Where the blame for all this agony will fall at every downturn is the single most pivotal issue in Iraq's future, and the die is already cast.

[Tiassa]

Sierra Club - "The Cost of Doing Business"
US firm accused of giving aid to terrorists

A former project manager for Echo Bay Mines has stated, and claims to have documentation to demonstrate, that his company paid as much as US$1.7 million to Filipino "terrorists," including some with connections to Abu Sayyaf and al Qaeda.

Allan Laird claims to have approached the Department of Homeland Security, but to on avail. According to Sierra magazine, two former executives of the now-defunct Denver, Colorado company have confirmed that Laird did send "alarming updates and queries from the Philippines," and was trying to follow a money trail . . . .

Oh, hell ... just do the reading. One note is that Echo Bay was purchased by Kinross Gold Corporation, of Canada, in 2003. Kinross officials say they had no knowledge of the payments.


Notes:

• Associated Press. "Ex=worker says mine gave aid to terrorists." April 17, 2004. See http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2511366
• Berlin Snell, Marilyn. "The Cost of Doing Business." Sierra Magazine, March/April, 2004. See http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200405/terrorism/

See Also:

• Kinross Gold Corporation. See http://www.kinross.com/

[kmguru]

Once you are an Ex-Worker, everything you say about the company is ignored as sour grapes - that is normal practice in USA. Whether it is small stuff or big stuff, but only when they are negative in nature. Speaking from my own experience.

[Tiassa]

Wow. I hadn't seen this one yet.

At any rate, I went to Apple to download some software to play a couple of old games I really miss, and, well ... I've never seen this warning before:U.S. Export Compliance Agreement - You agree that you will not export or reexport any of the software or confidential information received from Apple (i) into (or to a national or resident of) Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Serbia, Sudan, Syria, or any other country to which the U.S. has embargoed goods; or (ii) to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's list of Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Persons, U.S. Commerce Department's Table of Denial Orders and Entities List, or the U.S. State Department's Debarred List. By downloading this software, you represent and warrant that you are not located in, under the control of, or a national or resident of any such country or on any such list. You also agree that you will not use these products for any purposes prohibited by United States law, including, without limitation, the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons.Wowsers.

[Preacher_X]

Surely even a child can understand the difference between good and evil. :D

Daddy ... what's a terrorist?
Well, according to the Oxford dictionary a terrorist is "a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". Which means that terrorists are very bad men and women who frighten ordinary people like us, and sometimes even kill them.

Why do they kill them?
Because they hate them or their country. It's hard to explain ... it's just the way things are. For many different reasons a lot of people in our world are full of hate.

Like the ones in Iraq who are capturing people and saying that they'll kill them if all the soldiers don't leave?
Exactly! That's an evil thing called "blackmail". Those innocent people are hostages, and the terrorists are saying that if governments don't do what they want the hostages will be killed.

So was it blackmail when we said we'd attack Iraq and kill innocent people unless they told us where all their weapons were?
No! Well ... yes, I suppose. In a way. But that was an "ultimatum" ... call it "good blackmail.

Good blackmail? What's that?
That's when it's done for good reasons. Those weapons were very dangerous and could have hurt a lot of people all over the world. It was very important to find them and destroy them.

But Dad ... there weren't any weapons.
True. We know that now. But we didn't at the time. We thought there were.

So was killing all those innocent people in Iraq a mistake?
No. It was a tragedy, but we also saved a lot of lives. You see, we had to stop a very cruel man called Saddam Hussein from killing a great many ordinary Iraqi people. Saddam Hussein stayed in power by giving orders that meant thousands of people died or were horribly injured. Mothers and fathers. Even children.

Like that boy I saw on TV? The one who had his arms blown off by a bomb?
Yes ... just like him.

But we did that. Does that mean our leaders are terrorists?
Good heavens, no! Whatever gave you that idea? That was just an accident. Unfortunately, innocent people get hurt in a war. You can't expect anything else when you drop bombs on cities. Nobody wants it to happen ... it's just the way things are.

So in a war only soldiers are supposed to get killed?
Well, soldiers are trained to fight for their country. It's their job, and they're very brave. They know that war is dangerous and that they might be killed. As soon as they put on a uniform they become a target.

What uniforms do terrorists wear?
That's just the problem ... they don't! We can't tell them apart from the civilians. We don't know who we're fighting. And that's why so many innocent people are getting killed ... the terrorists don't follow the rules of war.

War has rules?
Oh, yes. Soldiers must wear uniforms. And you can't just suddenly attack someone unless they do something to you first. Then you can defend yourself.

So that's why we attacked Iraq? Because Iraq attacked us first and we were just defending ourselves?
Not exactly. Iraq didn't attack us ... but it might have. We decided to get in first. Just in case Iraq used those weapons we were talking about.

The ones they didn't have? So we broke the rules of war?
Technically speaking, yes. But ...

So if we broke the rules first, why isn't it OK for those people in Iraq who aren't wearing uniforms to break the rules?
Well, that's different. We were doing the right thing when we broke the rules.

But Dad ... how do we know we were doing the right thing?
Our leaders ... Bush and Blair and Howard ... they told us it was the right thing. And if they don't know, who does? They say that something had to be done to make Iraq a better place.

Is it a better place?
I suppose so, but I don't know for sure. Innocent people are still being killed and these kidnappings are terrible things. I feel very sorry for the families of those poor hostages, but we simply can't give in to terrorists. We must stand firm.

Would you say that if I was captured by terrorists?
Uh ... yes ... no ... I mean, it's very difficult ...

So you'd let me be killed? Don't you love me?
Of course! I love you very much. It's just that it's a very complicated issue and I don't know what I'd do ...

Well, if somebody attacked us and bombed our house and killed you and Mum and Jamie I know what I'd do.
What?
I'd find out who did it and kill them. Any way I could. I'd hate them for ever and ever. And then I'd get in a plane and bomb their cities.

But ... but ... you'd kill a lot of innocent people.
I know. But it's war, Dad. And that's just the way things are. Remember?

By: David Campbell :D

[Preacher_X]

1 - Israel is not a terrorist state and no.


not a terrorist state :rolleyes:

go on http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/index.htm

anf look at the THOUSANDS of pictures of Israeli TERRORIST ACTS. and that includes the pictures of the newborn babies with bullet holes in them, the elderly women getting beaten to the ground by Israeli soldiers, the 50 year old man who had his leg shot OFF by Israeli soldiers, the infants that were tied up to milatry vehicles and driven around, the little kids who are being beaten up with sticks by Israeli soldiers.

is that not terrorism. look at the pics and reply back.

and are you forgettiong how Israel was created how in '67 it came in with tanks and planes and burnt down thousands of houses and mosques were suvillians were hiding. currently it is bulldozing thousands of homes on the OCCUPIED west bank, just for more land.

if you were one of the people who's house had just been bulldozed simply of land last week, wouldn't you fell like blowing up some Israeli houses?

in the coty of Hebron in Palestine (not Israel) there are 100,000 Muslims and 700 Jewish "settelers" for the convienience of the 700 jewish "settlers" the 100,000 Muslims ALL have curfews, have to go through border checks daily. and this isn't even in Israel, it is in the West Bank which Israel "says" it gave to the palestinians but is still capturing it since '67

also the Goldstine massacre happened in Hebron.

[Preacher_X]

http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacre...stine/index.htm

for pictures of Israeli savagery that far surpasses any Nazis!!!!!!!!

[Preacher_X]

the correct URL:

http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/index.htm

[Tiassa]

Lawsuit: Justice Department sued for post-9/11 abuse
Charges include verbal, physical abuse, even sodomy
In a telephone interview from Faisalabad, Pakistan, he spoke wistfully of his early, around-the-clock jobs as a 7-Eleven clerk and as a gas station attendant in Huntington, N.Y., where customers brought him Thanksgiving dinner and Christmas gifts. But he is so haunted by memories of the terror, pain and humiliation that the federal officers inflicted on him, he said, that he starts to shake at the sight of his own brother, a policeman, in uniform.

"Before I go to prison, the America that I know is a beautiful country and Americans are such beautiful, kind, humble people," he said. "When I go to prison, I see there a different face of the United States of America." (Bernstein, New York Times (http://nytimes.com/2004/05/03/nyregion/03brooklyn.html))For those who might have actually believed the line to the contrary, yes, our nation is at war against Islam.

It just bugs me that people don't want to believe it happens. Oh, well. We'll have to see; innocent until proven otherwise, you know. Unless, of course, you're Muslim.

Your war on terror . . . .
____________________

• Bernstein, Nina. "2 Men Charge Abuse in Arrests After 9/11 Terror Attacks." New York Times, May 3, 2004. See http://nytimes.com/2004/05/03/nyregion/03brooklyn.html

[Hesomagari]

I love your passion Tiassa and read you whenever I find you, but this disturbs me.

I'm 30 years old. Trying to be a "nice guy" over the years has cost me almost every one of my defining principles.

Why? If you are not true to yourself, then what are you?

And yet the woman who has demanded over the years that such extraneous and inefficient baggage as principles should be thrown out one by one now wonders why I'm so dispassionate and without certain sympathies. It hasn't occurred to her that they're lying beside the highway here and there, parched to dust or rotting in the rain.

Why would you even get together with such a type as this? Bad choices?

And yet, there's nothing about this paring away of principles that is new or uncommon. That I feel this way, I'm told, is not unique. Turns out, if you look closely, it's the primary factor lending to what wisdom there is in the infamous Churchill quote: Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains. So why is it, then, that all the liberal politians are OLD....

I disagree with Churchill. Any person with a sense of justice knows what is right, and what is wrong.

Only those who have sold their souls, sail under the flag called "expedience".

[Tiassa]

Why? Overextended liberal compassion; you wake up one day and find you've given away all the stones for the foundation.If you are not true to yourself, then what are you?Human.

(It's a grim theme, I admit.)Why would you even get together with such a type as this? Bad choices?Technically, yes. We all make bad decisions. So why is it, then, that all the liberal politians are OLD.... (Are there any real liberals left? What is the measure of a modern liberal?)I disagree with Churchill. Any person with a sense of justice knows what is right, and what is wrong.I tend to agree, but at 30 people tell me this is my overzealous sense of youth .... :confused: Only those who have sold their souls, sail under the flag called "expedience". (This is America; everything is for sale.)

(Or, Amen!)

(Or ....)

I think I was looking for imagery that didn't involve a bony old fart dressed in a sheet holding a lantern at the market square. Diogenes just doesn't have the same punch he did when I was a kid.

:cool:

[Hesomagari]

Tiassa, you are 30. I am 50. I'm not claiming age advantage.

What I do want to say, is that it is possible to retain your convictions right from an early age. I does, of course, assume that you made logical decisions having been given all the facts, and having been in a family that is not simply of the bovine ilk, chews their cud, and makes the milk.....

I disagree with Churchill in another sense. Children are the ultimate conservatives, until they get pissy at 15, half their brains fall out, and they spend at least 10 years trying to be "different" to their parents, until somewhere they find their brains again.

Sometimes they never do.

Chances are, if the parents are liberal, kids will be conservative, and also the other way round. After all, kids always think their parents messed up, no matter whether they did or not.

.......Until they become old enough, or maybe parents themselves to realise that there really are some basic core values, if you really care to look hard enough, beyond the culture of situational ethics.

I agree, some parents don't operate from basic core values, but rather from situational ethics.

You are right. When I look at America, everything is for sale. Or else, politically, its worth the price to take, for the long term benefit that will accrue.

I know what you mean. I was just distressed that you thought that perhaps at 30, you had to become a bony old fart against your better judgement.

That is a choice, not a need.

[Tiassa]

Terror arrests in two U.S. states
I. Oregon attorney material witness to Spanish bombing
II. 3 nabbed in Montana "Project 7" investigation
III. Soapbox - The Almost Obvious

Arrests in two states Thursday signal the latest progress in the War on Terror.

In Oregon the FBI arrested a Portland lawyer as a material witness to the March 11 bombings in Madrid. Brandon Mayfield, a US citizen, was taken into custody after his fingerprints allegedly turned up on materials related to the Madrid bombings.

Additionally, he bears a connection to al Qaeda and the Taliban: he represented Jeffrey Leon Battle in a custody issue.

Mayfield is a convert to Islam, with a wife and three children at home. Mona Mayfield insists on her husband's innocence, calling him, "a good man, a good father, a good husband."

Over in Kalispell, Montana, authorities have arrested three men in connection with a group calling itself "Project 7," the members of which allegedly collected weapons and ammunition and plotted political and law enforcement murders.

James R. Day, Steven N. Morey, and John W. Slater have all been charged with weapons crimes. Day with illegal possession of a machine gun and felon-in-possession; Morey and Slater with illegal possession of a machine gun and possessing weapons with serial numbers removed.

Last year, David Burgert, the alleged leader of Project 7, pled guilty to firearms charges.

Despite the allegations, nobody has actually been charged with plotting murder.

Now ... something about this just doesn't seem right. Read the AP links at the Seattle P-I, listed below. Look at how the word "terrorism" is used in the one, and not used at all in the other. I mean, if you flip through Google news looking for the word "terror" in connection with the Mayfield arrest, it's a curious contextual barrier maintained. The American media is being very restrained with their use of "terror."

Three guys from Montana plotting to kill politicians? Not a mention of terror.

And it's true; amid the torrential litany of "terror! terror! terror!" it's always good to get a breather. It's just an odd coincidence that we're getting a bit of a lull when it's Americans being arrested.

Maybe it's all a coincidence. Maybe things are looking up, and now that we get to deal with homegrown issues, we'll stop flogging the terror-dolphin.
____________________

• Associated Press. "U.S. citizen arrested in Spain bomb probe." May 6, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=US%20Spain%20Bombing%20Arrest
• Associated Press. "Feds arrest 3 in alleged militia plot." May 6, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Militia%20Plot

Related interest:

• United Press International. "Arrest made in L.A. mall terror threat." May 5, 2004. See http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040505-081305-6838r.htm

[hypewaders]

"...it's a curious contextual barrier maintained. The American media is being very restrained with their use of "terror."...Not a mention of terror... it's always good to get a breather. It's just an odd coincidence that we're getting a bit of a lull when it's Americans being arrested."


It's incurious, routine, and dangerous. The "War on Terror" has become, for American government and its imbedded media, an extremely useful oversimplification of the issues surrounding organized violence. As this movement reached critical mass, becoming culture war, the mainstream lost dramatically more capability for perception of American violence in the same light as violence perpetrated by foreigners. This national tunnel-vision is progressing, even as our conflict with the Arab and Islamic worlds is escalating. Rhetoric is constricting right along with the national mindset it reflects.

I wish for more than a lull, but also for a way out. This conflict will not end, nor will it de-escalate, until American illusions are demolished concerning war as just and effective response to terrorism. Because so many American lives are sacrificed in the learning (and while foreign ones don't count within this mentality), fundamental American pride is being heaped atop the altar along with all other military, political, and economic stakes. This is trapping the US in a make-or-break crusade on terrorism that could be impossible to escape.

While I wouldn't call it a lull, we are poised right now in a relatively calm moment, when the results of enraging the Mideast- as we have never before enraged the Mideast- have yet to emerge. We are not using this time very wisely. While popular American doubts are surfacing, there are very few voices prominent and courageous enough to reveal an uncomfortable but imperative exit from the disasters ahead.

The Federal government has not ordered troops to Montana to remove the state government, and has not surrounded and shelled Kallispell. Instead, the federal government is seeing to it that local authority not be disturbed, because the political implications of Federal occupation and martial law would not efficiently contribute to the objective of deterring Project 7. This seems laughably obvious, but it is no less obvious from the perspectives of Iraqis or Afghanis, who are watching their countries eviscerated by US intervention that is no less ignorant of basic political realities.

In the present relative quiet, the USA has a fleeting opportunity to ingest a repulsive but relatively modest helping of Humble Pie now- to back away from ill-conceived and duplicitously-launched neoimperialism. If we can't turn away from our counterproductive, self-destructive "War on Terror", there will be immeasurable humiliation ahead, and a horrific toll in lives and livelihoods.

[Tiassa]

I don't expect the War on Terror to go any better than the War on Drugs. However, the scale of the War on Terror ....

Was it ethically or morally wrong of me--a couple weeks back, none other than Barry McCaffrey himself I believe it was pointed out that the war on drugs and the war against organized crime laid the precursors for the USA-PATRIOT Act .... I do on some level that may be sublimated schadenfreude take pleasure in hearing the government finally admit it.

The War on Terror is already a disaster; it's going to kill so many people and destroy so many lives ... I admit I feel guilty as well for taking such a small, petty pleasure.

Here's to the terror-dolphin.

(Can you imagine that tattoo? A mean-looking dolphin saying, "Flog me!" Maybe I ought to design a mascot. The Easter Bunny will thank me. Er ... sorry. But I was actually aiming a little more toward the weary center than usual; I don't argue against a line of your post, and was looking for a subtle way of referring to back the terror-dolphin line. So much for subtlety ...)

:m: :cool: :m:

[Whirlwind]

[QUOTE=Eng Grez]1 - Israel is not a terrorist state and no.

Hum, first your made a poor start with that absured statement and then my bladder begged for relief and when I finally came back, I decided I should have stayed for a s*!t and when that was over, I forgot what I was going to say! :eek:

BTW: Zionist Israel represents all the worst elements of "evil" and the decent Jews of Israel find themselves in the same shoe as the decent people here in the US who see the fascist Neo-Con(men) in control and can't seem to do anything to shake them. :mad:

Carefull America, The German people had this kind of an experience and the rest is history. :eek:

Whirlwind....

[Tiassa]

Spanish doubts ignored in U.S. arrest
Court documents suggest FBI errors

Major newspapers will hit the streets today carrying the latest round in the arrest of Portland, Oregon lawyer Brandon Mayfield. The Muslim convert and former Army lieutenant was arrested May 6 as a material witness to the Madrid train bombings in March, 2004.

Mayfield was arrested largely because the FBI believed that his fingerprint was on a bag containing materials suspected to be used in the manufacture of the Madrid bombs. He was released two weeks later after evidence emerged that the partial fingerprint was that of a known terrorist.

As the New York Times describes:

Days after the train bombings in Madrid last March killed 191 people, the Spanish authorities, unable to find a match with a set of fingerprints found on a plastic bag full of detonators, sent the Federal Bureau of Investigation a digital copy, hoping the bureau could find what they could not.

The F.B.I. quickly and confidently found a match to a Portland-area lawyer, setting in motion a chain of events that led the authorities in the United States to link the wrong man to those fingerprints, tie him to Islamic terrorists, arrest him on a material-witness warrant, jail him for 14 days, drop the entire case on Monday and then face withering questions about how the investigation could have gone so wrong. (Kershaw and Lichtblau)

Tuesday brought the unsealing of certain court records, including doubts by Spanish authorities that the fingerprint match was Mayfield.

While the FBI described the match as "100 per cent," the unsealed court documents indicate that the Bureau never saw the original print and worked from a digital image, only viewing the original print after Spanish authorities suggested a known Algerian terrorist.

Prosecutors had filed a nine-page affidavit in order to get an arrest warrant; according to the Los Angeles Times,

The affidavit listed those associations:

• Mayfield handled a child-custody case involving Jeffrey Battle, a member of the so-called Portland Seven terrorist cell whose members had tried to join the Taliban. Battle is serving an 18-year sentence for conspiring to levy war against the United States.

• On the first anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, someone in Mayfield's house made a phone call to an Islamic charity run by a Muslim man now on a federal terrorism watch list.

• Mayfield's law practice was advertised in a directory run by a man who was once a business associate of Osama bin Laden's personal secretary.

• Mayfield was also observed by the FBI on several occasions visiting a mosque near his home in Aloha, Ore. (Tizon and Schmitt)

The Bureau has apologized; special agent in charge Robert Jordan said he plans to meet with Mayfield in order to apologize on behalf of the Portland office. Additionally, a policy review is beginning, and the Bureau intends to call for outside experts to help review the situation. Meanwhile, the implications of the case are echoing:

"None of this is worth anything in court," said Nelson, who believes Mayfield's Muslim connections were included in the affidavit to prejudice the grand jury. "All the FBI had was a fingerprint, and when that was gone, they had nothing."

The FBI has laid the blame on a digitized copy of the print that it originally received from Spanish authorities. The FBI said it did not receive images of the print with the "highest possible resolution."

Experts said the case raises basic questions about the FBI's methodology.

"But for the fortuity of the fact that the Spanish fingerprinting examiners were able to find another match — which was more compelling than the FBI was making — this guy would still be in jail," said Robert Epstein, an assistant federal public defender in Philadelphia who has challenged the FBI fingerprint techniques in court.

"Who knows how many other distorted images the FBI has made identifications on," Epstein said. "In many cases, there is no independent verification. This shows there is no assurance against a bad identification." (Tizon and Schmitt)

The New York Times offers more insight into the FBI's case:

In making their case to a federal judge in Portland for arresting Mr. Mayfield, a Muslim convert, F.B.I. investigators said their reasoning for the arrest went beyond the fingerprint match, according to the affidavit. Mr. Mayfield had represented a terrorism defendant in a custody case, telephone records showed a "telephonic contact" on Sept. 11, 2002, between his home and a phone number assigned to Pete Seda, the director of a local Islamic Charity, the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, who is on a federal terrorism watch list.

The Mayfields denied having any contact with Mr. Seda, Mr. Mayfield's lawyers said, and said they had never heard of him. The affidavit also said that Mr. Mayfield's law firm, a family and immigration law practice in Beaverton, Ore., advertised in a "Muslim yellow page directory," which was produced by a man who had business dealings with Osama bin Laden's former personal secretary. The yellow pages directory was administered by "Jerusalem Enterprises, Inc.," which was registered to Farid Adlouni, a Portland resident whom the documents said was "directly linked in business dealings" with Wadih El Hage, the former bin Laden secretary who was convicted by a New York federal court of conspiring to murder U.S. citizens.

And finally, the affidavit said, Mr. Mayfield was seen driving from his home to the Bilal mosque, his regular place of worship. That mosque, said officials with the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon, had been under surveillance, but the F.B.I.'s mention of his attendance at the mosque as a justification for his arrest infuriated Muslim groups.

"I'd be surprised if there's a mosque in the country that hasn't come under scrutiny these days," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington. "It becomes the whole Kevin Bacon game — no Muslim is more than six degrees away from terrorism." (Kershaw and Lichtblau)

You know ... Hooper might get the prize for sound bite of the week.

Comment:

Yes, we have gone too far. I won't go so far as to say that Mayfield ought to consider himself lucky to be a white Muslim, but there's no harm in tossing it out there in order to defuse it.

Drugs, at one time, were called a threat to American life and to national security. I mention that because it serves well as an analogy. Aptly, perhaps, as the Drug War is part of the legal framework underpinning the veneer of acceptability glossing the frenzied shredding of the Constitution by an overly-ambitious U.S. government.

But think very carefully for a moment: There are nearly ten-thousand registered members at Sciforums. I, on the other hand, as a visible and prolific poster, have never made any apologies whatsoever for my primary violations of the law--e.g. smoking pot.

Now ... there's ten-thousand people who could go on a watch-list as possible drug dealers. We might even extrapolate to the ridiculous for a moment just to note that if we combine the propaganda that illicit drugs necessarily support terrorism with the number of posts I've written which are either critical of U.S. policy, sympathetic to human beings who happen to be Muslim, or lack this that or the other specific condemnation of some action somewhere in the world: You're all terror suspects!

Welcome to America. Yes, we've been bushwhacked.
____________________

Notes:

• Kershaw, Sarah and Eric Lichtblau. "Spain Had Doubts Before U.S. Held Lawyer in Madrid Blasts." May 26, 2004. See http://nytimes.com/2004/05/26/national/26OREG.html
• Tizon, Alex and Richard B. Schmitt. "FBI Ignored Spain's Doubt on Fingerprint." May 26, 2004. See http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-mayfield26may26,1,6584975.story

(Free registration required for both websites.)

[kmguru]

Some disjointed thoughts:

Towards the end of Greek and Roman civilization, the civil and military servants raped, tortured and pillaged to the societies destruction. Are we imploding ourselves that way?

Consider this:

I just learned that in a ceratin state, 40,000 common prison inmates are released and 20,000 go back. They are looking to reduce the recidivism but have no clue and blame the society.

The K-12 students have no clue nor any parental involvement and are not prepared to join the society in a productive way.

The disadvantage kids fall through the cracks.

A batch of religious fanatics may be growing and they may not be Muslims. We have no news - is that good news?

Jobs are still leaving our country

Our torture methods are basically same as it was 2000 years ago.

To please the king, everyone wants a confession even if no crime was commited.

What would happen if those relatives of tortured people blow up all the refineries simultaneously?

Would it be more of the same towards a civil war?

[crazy151drinker]

The 'War on Drugs' is a Joke. Blame Nixon for that continual waste of resources and propaganda.

[kmguru]

If the "War on Drugs" is a joke, then we are in trouble because we are using the same methodology in the "War on Terror".

[crazy151drinker]

Kmguru,

Well the 'War on Drugs' is nothing but a business. I dont see how the War on Terror is. While it may be profitbable for the US businesses its not profitable for the terrorists.

[Tiassa]

Well the 'War on Drugs' is nothing but a business. I dont see how the War on Terror is.

The War on Drugs laid the "constitutional" foundation for the questionable persecutions and prosecutions of the domestic War on Terror. For years, judicial oddities surrounded the drug war that occurred nowhere else in law and justice. It is when these ideas were carried outside the drug war that they got shaken up (cf Apprendi v. New Jersey) and no decision outside the Drug War was willingly allowed back into the Drug War. The aforementioned Apprendi case, for instance. Out in the western US, the Ninth Court jumped on the Apprendi decision while the rest of the country hemmed and hawed. Apparently, compound sentencing for crimes the defendant isn't allowed to defend against and the jury is not aware they are convicting you of is unacceptable if you're convicted at threatening a person with a gun because of their skin color, but is very acceptable if you happen to be a pot smoker whose girlfriend put her prescription in your jacket pocket to hold.

As terror-prevention becomes a cottage industry, as law enforcement faces the choice of remilitarizing (see Weber, "Warrior Cops (http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-050es.html)" for a discussion of the prior militarization), as Halliburton and other cronies continue to carpetbag in wars prosecuted in the name of fighting terror ... I don't see how the War on Terror isn't a business.

And while the profits of the terrorists seem minute to nonexistent, such is the difficulty of measuring another's profit empirically.

[Tiassa]

And the winner is . . . Accenture!
$10b bid proposal awarded to Bermuda company; GAO estimates $15b total

The Bush administration has awarded the largest homeland security contract in history to a company that has given up its U.S. citizenship and moved to Bermuda. The inconsistency is breathtaking. (Rep. Richard Neal)

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security will entrust its U.S.-VISIT project, a "virtual border" designed to snare incoming terrorists that bears a price tag estimated variously at ten- and fifteen-billion dollars, to Accenture, a Bermuda corporation. The decision, described by USDHS Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson as "a significant milestone in the history of the department," has set off some early controversy.

While Hutchinson noted that the importance of the project responsibility could not be overstated, Massachusetts Rep. Richard Neal (D), said, "The American taxpayers are paying $10 billion for passport inspection to a company that has turned down its own U.S. passport . . . This is simply outrageous." An early version of the Homeland Security funding bill would have blackballed companies including Accenture, Tyco, Ingersoll-Rand, and others who have relocated outside the US for tax purposes.

Maine Republican Olympia Snowe voiced concerns, "They moved offshore to avoid taxes and now they are benefiting and reaping the rewards."

And Texas Democrat Lloyd Doggett took the most vicious swipe: "U.S.-Visit really describes the business strategy of these companies . . . Our security is undermined by corporations that devise ways to avoid paying their share of the cost of keeping our homeland secure."

An Accenture spokesman said the contracting authority was awarded to the US-based subsidiary Accenture LLP, which pays US income taxes and employs some 25,000 people.

Hutchinson told reporters at a news conference, "Legal counsel looked at this and determined that all three bidders met all the legal requirements."

US-VISIT, which stands for Visitor and Immigrant Status Indicator Technology, is already underway at 115 airports and 14 seaports where incoming foreigners are required to be photographed and fingerprinted, and is scheduled to be extended to 50 land-border crossing points by the end of 2004. Among the challenges of US-VISIT is the integration of at least 19 large government databases.

Perhaps lending some clarity to the situation, one financial analyst pointed out Accenture's track record with the Transportation Security Administration. Cindy Shaw, of Schwab SoundView Capital Markets, said, "One of the things that got lost in this whole competition is that Accenture helped T.S.A. put together its airport screening process . . . They showed well under pressure there."

Accenture outbid competing contractors Computer Sciences and Lockheed Martin.

Comment:

Well apparently the name Accenture means "accent on the future." The name was submitted to the former Andersen Consulting by a Norwegian consultant. Frankly, I think it's one of the dumbest company names ever. There are worse names, to be sure. Siemans, for instance. (Surely, I jest.)

Five-thousand suggested names and "Accenture" was the best they could come up with.

These guys are going to spend between ten- and fifteen-billion dollars in order to save our asses from the terrorists?

Jesus f@¢k, George. Why don't you just spend it on bullets and shoot us all now?

And ... hey ... an historical milestone for the Department of Homeland Security? How tough is that? It's what? Two years old?

So let's sum up here .... Um, Secretary Ridge? Mr. Hutchinson? Mr. President? I just want to make sure I have this clearly in my mind. Now, you just bid for $10b what the GAO says might run $15b. First off, that's just a bad idea. The people are getting tired of these deceptive price tags. And this money is going to further a project which already has civil-liberties advocates in a snit, and which promises to be an information-management nightmare. So in order to address the coming nightmare, you pick offshore tax dodges who couldn't come up with a better name than "Accenture."

Mr. President, it sounds like you're spending billions on a goddamn luxury sedan. And we both know how vapid car names are in this country. So at that price tag, I'd like my Accenture to come with a Star-Trek replicator specifically attuned to Wendy's double-cheeseburgers, fries from Dick's, and I'll even vote for you if it can perfectly nail Green River poured over ice on a summer day.

That's what I want for my fifteen billion. Screw the terrorists.
____________________

• Donmoyer, Ryan J. "Accenture wins huge Homeland Security deal." Bloomberg News. June 2, 2004. See http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001944881_accenture02.html
• Greenemeier, Larry. "Andersen Consulting Changing Name To Accenture." InformationWeek, October 26, 2000. See http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20001026S0004
• Lichtblau, Eric and John Markoff. "Accenture Is Awarded U.S. Contract for Borders." New York Times, June 2, 2004. See http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/02/technology/02secure.html (registration required)

[Don Hakman]

Its not the only one...


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/halliburt.jpg

[Don Hakman]

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/track1.gif

[Tiassa]

Intelligence concerns free Al Qaeda confessor
Nabil al-Marabh deported to Syria

From the AP wire:

Nabil al-Marabh, once imprisoned as the No. 27 man on the FBI's list of must-capture terror suspects, is free again. He's free despite telling a Jordanian informant he planned to die a martyr by driving a gasoline truck into a New York City tunnel, turning it sideways, opening its fuel valves and having an al-Qaida operative shoot a flare to ignite a massive explosion.

Free despite telling the FBI he had trained on rifles and rocket propelled grenades at militant camps in Afghanistan and after admitting he sent money to a former roommate convicted of trying to blow up a hotel in Jordan.

Free despite efforts by prosecutors in Detroit and Chicago to indict him on charges that could have kept him in prison for years. Those indictments were rejected by the Justice Department in the name of protecting intelligence. Even two judges openly questioned al-Marabh's terror ties.

Source: Associated Press/Guardian Unlimited (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4162573,00.html)

A Justice Department spokesman said Wednesday that the US government has concerns about many people with suspected terror ties, but cannot effectively prosecute these individuals without endangering intelligence sources and methods. "If the government cannot prosecute terrorism charges, another option is to remove the individual from the United States via deportation. After careful review, this was determined to be the best option available under the law to protect our national security," said Bryan Sierra.

There is, of course, a predictable backlash.

Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY) rejected the government's explanation: "It's hard to believe that the best way to deal with the FBI's 27th most wanted terrorist is to send him back to a terrorist-sponsoring country."

DoJ is not without its own concerns, though. Last month, Chris Wray, of the department's criminal division, told Congress: "It may be more difficult than people would expect . . . We may be able to deport the person under the immigration laws . . . And while that should give us some comfort, the fact is, if we go that route, the person is removed to another country and turned loose there, and we have no ability to make sure that they're not engaged in further terrorist activity."

Comment

We cannot have everything. Underneath it all, we must consider that this is still the United States of America, and in the end that means sometimes the guilty must go free.

Nonetheless, this argument of how we treat suspects and people held questionable in the eyes of our beloved Department of Justice (seek and ye shall find ... maybe) has largely been relegated to somewhere around the fourth tier; the last we really heard about it was after the 2002-03 Super Bowl, when it was revealed that a large number of non-Arabic illegal aliens were deported for national security reasons.

But now one of the big birds goes free; these deportations we understand.

However, since the argument is at hand, the Bush administration might wish to consider using this case to give leverage to its lament that the government has not--or had not--the tools to effectively and properly combat terrorism. Reasonably-placed representatives of the cabinet ought to make the press rounds and explain, in detail, how the prosecution of Marabh was so convoluted that deportation was the best option.

Ordinarily I would say it cynical to speculate that maybe Marabh was released specifically because he was Syrian. There's no doubt about where to deport him to, but there seems to be a question about the wisdom of sending a known willing terrorist to a country our government accuses of sponsoring terror. The odds game, of course, would then wonder whether Marabh would eventually bite the US in the ass, and it's entirely possible that he will. But what logical sense, even in a Roving dimension, would that risk claim? It's unimaginable at this point.

Additionally, there's this aspect: How many Arabs does it take to light a fire? Two--one to pour the gasoline, and another to shoot the flare gun while he does.

Certes it seems simplistic in its excess. There's nothing there one man with a fuel truck and a Zippo can't accomplish. So it seems that his confessed form of martyrdom is really, really stupid. Of course, the guy who car-bombed the WTC a decade ago went back for the deposit, so ....

But man ... not only is Marabh dangerous and on the loose, but he's dangerous, as stupid as a bad stereotype, and on the loose.

However ... I prefer to simply see what the future writes. We Americans may cross paths with Mr. Marabh in the future, and we may not like the encounter. Then again, the future is unwritten.