View Full Version : Bible translations, how could you so sure?
daktaklakpak
06-08-01, 02:58 PM
If you know more than two languages, you know how imprecise languages are. You can translate an article from language A to language B, then translate it to language A. You will find out you never get back the article in it's original form. The result will be worse if you go from A to B to C, then back to A.
Same thing happened to the Bibles. After so many translations, how could you so sure that you are still reading the same idea that was intended from the original? How could you say that the Bible was the words of god? At best, translated Bibles only carry the ideas of the original Bible. But even idea can lose its original meaning after many translations.
So don't hold your breath when reading a Bible. What you read is very likely not what it meant. :D
Deadwood
06-09-01, 01:57 AM
Hi everyone!
Many many hours usually go in to translating the bible. Personally, I use the NIV. This particular bible was created Ecunemically (mulit denominational) to be sure that it is not biased. Also, an extremely large number of scripts in different languages ae used, like Ancient Hebrew, Ancient greek, Latin etc. Many thousands of texts are used ion this process and many scholars are employed in such great a task as well.
Also, at your disposal are bible dictionaries, which explain what a particular word means from the certain language it was written in. Commentaries as well go into great depth. Also, the notes that appear at the bottom of many bibles also have little references called "lit." which gives you the literal meaning of the word.
After all of this if you still are unsure, you are quite welcome to learn the original language, like Ancient hebrew, Ancient Greek, or Aramaic (the language that Jesus spoke) etc.
Also for note. When you actually study theology with accreditation you actually have to study the actual language first and get up to a certain level in that language before you can actually start to study the bible in depth or get any accredititation.
Thanks
daktaklakpak
06-12-01, 06:32 PM
That's exactly. Lots of footnotes. Everything is open to interpretation. So how could you so sure?
Deadwood
06-13-01, 08:12 AM
Phillipians Ch 3 Vs 15
"All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."
Thanks :)
Sir. Loone
06-20-01, 08:27 PM
As for me, I have faith in the translations of the Holy Word of GOD! And to continue to study and show thy self approved, rightly dividing the Word of God.
Rambler
06-20-01, 09:11 PM
Looks like its straight to hell for you:
you wrote:
"As for me, I have faith in the translations of the Holy Word of GOD! "
so you base your faith on the words of MEN???? that scornfull God of yours is going to have a field day thanks to your obvious lack of understanding. See you in Hell Loone.
After all of this if you still are unsure, you are quite welcome to learn the original language, like Ancient hebrew, Ancient Greek, or Aramaic (the language that Jesus spoke) etc.Wouldn't it be more beneficial if the faithful learned the language of their heritage? We, the infidels, already know there's much wrong with the Bible. It would seem to me beneficial to the faithful if they got as close to the horse's mouth as possible. Why do I prefer Marlowe's Doctor Faustus to Goethe's Faust? Because I speak Marlowe's language, and find myself more competent amid metaphors of old without having to go through a language of which much cannot be directly translated. They are, at their heart, the same legend, and possess many of the same moral arguments. But I prefer Goethe's Faust onstage, with competent people broadcasting the information. To read, definitely Marlowe. Not just for the comfort of a common language, but for the ability to interpret it.
Here's a quiz to demonstrate: tell me a little about the Hebrew term keleb, please.
thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
Stretch
06-23-01, 09:41 AM
Hiya ...
We would not be debating the "Holy Word of God" if the message was Supernatural and genuine. The "Evidence" would speak for itself. Why is there so much controversy? An omnipotent loving God would not confuse his potentiates. Simple.
Take care
Sir. Loone
06-24-01, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Rambler
Looks like its straight to hell for you:
you wrote:
"As for me, I have faith in the translations of the Holy Word of GOD! "
so you base your faith on the words of MEN???? that scornfull God of yours is going to have a field day thanks to your obvious lack of understanding. See you in Hell Loone.
Hi Rambler, You are not a god, you are a mere man or woman, and can not send any to Hell that is not going!:D
And I am not basing my Faith on the words of men, but of God!
I know about the deeper meanings to the Words of God, and the Hebrew and Greek translations I am going into deeper study of those word meanings we talked about in Church this Sunday 24 2001 June. And that I also have something you don't have in understanding the Holy Scriptures, is that I and others that are saved, have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide us and direct us into all truths of the Scriptures! He reveals it to me and with study can have knowledge to the meaning of His words in clarity!:)
Jesus still can save you from the pits of Hell! You don't have to go there if you would only believe!:eek: :(:)
I have Faith in the Holy Spirit to relevance of Scripture and to also studying the translations too! To the Glory of GOD!:D
Sir. Loone
06-24-01, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by tiassa
But we're not surprised.
You missed what I am saying too 'Tiassa', there is a big difference to your understanding of Scripture and ours. The Holy Bible is 'supernatural book, you could not really understand that but it is. And you refuse to know the truth then you will have no real understanding of it, know matter how far you go in the Word of God. You would need to be 'born again', it's the only way!
The Holy Spirit reveals the Word to us, with study, some by merely hearing the Word of God! We can study the Greek translations, there words have more in-dept meaning then English, but even so the Holy Spirit can bring all things in Scripture to light, in the heart and we have Faith in the Word of God. And learning it is more then a life time, in the Spirit the words would have new meaning to every situation of life! There is the Living God behind the Word of God!
We have Faith in GOD and His Holy word! To the
Glory of God!:)
Loone,
You continually insist that one must accept the authority of the Word of God before one can know what it is. Very well.
Just as long as we're clear on that.
--Tiassa :cool:
Sir. Loone
06-25-01, 06:00 PM
Hi Tiassa, well the Word of God says it's self that one must be 'born-again' to truly understand what is read in it, the Living Word of God. We do have a totally different "world view" of the Scriptures then those who are none believers, but if one is a seeker of truth, God can reveal Himself to him/her and with the faith even the size of a mustard seed, one can come to an saving knowledge of Jesus and His word and it will become more real and the meaning far more clarity then ever before, it has real power in it when the Spirit of God is upon that person.
Otherwise it would be just a collection of ancient words and fraises, with the meaning lost in antiquity.
Well also I am not trying to convert anyone, that I say again, others have said, is the work of the Holy Spirit, not of my lone saying. With out being a Christian, and some 'heart-knowledge' of the Word of God, and the Spirit in me, I would have nothing to say!:( I rather obey my Lord Jesus, then mortal men and there earthly ways.
"For I am not ashamed of the 'gospel of Christ' (good news) for it is the power of God to those that believe, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." [gentiles] We are gentiles if not Jewish.
We are saying there is far more to the Living Word of God then just words of 'inspiration.' It is life to the believer! And our guiding light! Faith in God's Word (and Jesus) is the very foundation of our Faith.:)
"Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father except by Him." Jesus saves!
daktaklakpak
06-25-01, 07:13 PM
The all mighty god can't even reveal himself to the non-believers.
Pity? :D
Sir. Loone
06-25-01, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by daktaklakpak
The all mighty god can't even reveal himself to the non-believers.
Pity? :D
Well not if you don't want to!:)
In fact He did revealed Himself to the Apostle Paul!
Saul was a persicuter of Christians and had them captured and inprisoned and killed! But one day on the road to Damascas he met Jesus in a blinding light, that blinded him and was later healed by a Christain and got hids sight back! Now he became The Apostle Paul, the greatest of the Apostles!
I meant He can if it's His will for you, otherwise you would have to come to Him by Faith! God is 'sovereign' and would do as He will in His own good season.
Originally posted by daktaklakpak
So don't hold your breath when reading a Bible. What you read is very likely not what it meant.
Given the alternatives, I'll take my chances with the Bible.
After all, if a person reads twenty or so translations, plus the "original," a person can get some idea of what is intended.
Originally posted by Stretch
We would not be debating the "Holy Word of God" if the message was Supernatural and genuine. The "Evidence" would speak for itself. Why is there so much controversy? An omnipotent loving God would not confuse his potentiates. Simple.
It is.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
(Matthew 13:10-13, KJV).
God isn't confusing us, he's confusing you.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:11,12, KJV).
Choose the truth, and there will be no confusion.
God isn't confusing us, he's confusing youThat's why every Christian in the world holds the identical viewpoint of what God's word says, and how that applies in their life. The variations among the churches are merely a ruse for style, you know, kind of an elbow-code to keep the uninitiated out.
thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
Originally posted by tiassa
That's why every Christian in the world holds the identical viewpoint of what God's word says, and how that applies in their life. The variations among the churches are merely a ruse for style, you know, kind of an elbow-code to keep the uninitiated out.
You're close, but opposite.
The differences are to keep out the initiated.
There are many churches around where the last thing that is wanted is a Christian.
Christians tend to agree, but pseudo-Christians tend not to, just as non-Christians.
It isn't an us-vs-them world, until the end.
In the meantime, it is us, and them, and them pretending to be us.
And some of the pretending-to-be-us group don't know they belong to that group.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Matthew 7:21, KJV).
Hehehe...I'm not sure of the last time I ever saw two Christians agree on much, it always depends on what their preacher said. Seriously, a lot is lost in the translation, and you can read all the different ones you want, and throw in several hundred commentaries, but only God can open your eyes to the truth. God doesn't confuse people, men do that. If you look to God for your answers and understanding instead of men or commentaries you would get accurate information a lot easier. Unfortunately, God is usually the last person a Christian would think to ask, because some church board or seminary master somewhere long ago decided God can't talk any more, so the board of trustee's and preachers would decide what He meant for Him.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
*Originally posted by Taken
Hehehe...I'm not sure of the last time I ever saw two Christians agree on much,*
We're still miles ahead of atheists, who can't even agree on what an atheist is.
Ahhh but they agree on what they are NOT...Christians, a fact that I as a Christian take NO pride in.
Well, my parents worked in a Chrisitian publishing company that published Christian books in Spanish. I got to know many of the translators personally....friends of the family you could say. These people get several translators together--all whom have an extensive background in theology (Ph.D.) and are not only fluent in Hebrew (and other lang) but they've written books and taught the language in universities. So, safe to say these people are pretty much the ones to get to try and translate the Bible from the ORIGINAL scriptures. The team took YEARS to do this and consulted many other translators around the world for consensus. They also had the task of translating for today's people.....they had to revise many archaic words that had developed multiple meanings or were simply not used and therefore not understood very well. Anyway, at least people are trying, right? Okay, that's about it.
;)
*Originally posted by Taken
Ahhh but they agree on what they are NOT...Christians, a fact that I as a Christian take NO pride in. *
Does that mean there are things you do take pride in?
*Originally posted by Ana
So, safe to say these people are pretty much the ones to get to try and translate the Bible from the ORIGINAL scriptures. The team took YEARS to do this and consulted many other translators around the world for consensus.*
Sounds good but they still might be wrong.
God's a much better bet to find out what something means.
Ana you are right. There have been many good men who have sought God to guide their work and give us as accurate account as the language would allow. So long as we always search it out and question, we will find it to be true or lacking. It might not be an easy task but anything worth haveing usually isn't.
*Originally posted by Taken
It might not be an easy task but anything worth haveing usually isn't. *
Where do you get your "gospel?"
Or should I call it "baspel?"
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Matthew 11:30, KJV).
Jesus died on the cross to make things easy for us, and here you are preaching that easy isn't worth having.
What kind of drugs are you on?
It just wasn't tough enough on people to be told that they should be poverty-stricken snakebite victims with the flu, so now you have to add "not easy" to it, too?
Were you thinking that having the flu while broke and snakebitten was too "easy" for people?
Red Devil
11-19-01, 05:49 AM
We appear to be going round in circles here - did we not have all these discussions on the translating of the bible several months ago? The riddle was unsolved then as people like Tony1 will not look a fact in the face, prefering instead to survive on holding up the book and swearing that it is the truth etc, yadda yadda :rolleyes:
*Originally posted by .ed .evil
We appear to be going round in circles here - did we not have all these discussions on the translating of the bible several months ago?*
No.
No one has ever suggested that the gospel should be hard, such as the life of a poverty-stricken snakebite victim with the flu, in connection with Bible translations before.
*The riddle was unsolved then as people like Tony1 will not look a fact in the face, prefering instead to survive on holding up the book and swearing that it is the truth etc, yadda yadda *
You do realize that "yadda yadda" is Hebrew for "praise, praise" and is used a lot in the old testament, particularly for praising God?
Red Devil
11-23-01, 05:47 PM
OMG! Yadda Yadda means Praise Praise - then, in your case Tony, I fully retracted it !!!:rolleyes:
But did you notice how tough it is for you to make any kind of point without quoting the Bible?
Even when you thought you weren't quoting the Bible, you were.
Many of Gods men were poor, and many found Jesus thru healing so at some point there ailments became a blessing in that they were saved. One of Gods men was a poverty stricken snake bite victim. :O) Anyone want to guess who? :O) LOL
Jesus said His yoke was easy, He didn't say salvation, or stewardship would be easy. Unless being imprisioned, stoned, blinded, fed by birds in the wilderness, wandering in the desert for years, hung, labeled mentally ill or decapitated was easy by your definition. It was of course better by far than the alternative, but easy? Easy to say for people who worship and express their beliefs in total protection of freedom, who have cushioned pews and central air, who have good jobs and are near to their families for the most part, easy for those who find acceptance where Christians once found persecution and death. Easy to speak haughty words and send a few dollars to a christian charity or missionary and feel self righteouse.Probably the only people more totally blinded by arrogance than most of us Americans are Christian Americans. Live in constant fear of death, wander in to unprotected areas where you are not welcome, go hungry, watch your children starve and die of curable diseases, listen as bombs drop around you in the night, read your Bible secretly because the punishment is execution, then sit and say I am holier than thou and am worthy of Gods mercy.
Tony if demons fear you so much, then why haven't you saved these poor lost souls? Isn't it your duty to use your gift in this way? Have you purchased your ticket to Ethiopia or Afghanistan yet? You don't fear evil, you speak bodly of Gods grace and condemnation from behind your computer screen, why not go where such courage is needed? You can't die or get sick or be harmed because you are under Gods protection according to you so why aren't you out there where such great faith is needed? Where are your works? Because with out them faith is dead!
KalvinB
11-24-01, 12:44 PM
"Have you purchased your ticket to Ethiopia or Afghanistan yet? You don't fear evil, you speak bodly of Gods grace and condemnation from behind your computer screen, why not go where such courage is needed? You can't die or get sick or be harmed because you are under Gods protection according to you so why aren't you out there where such great faith is needed? Where are your works? Because with out them faith is dead!"
Because Satan, it is also written thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God.
Just because you probably won't get that I'm not calling you Satan. Just pointing out you asked the same thing Satan asked Jesus. And no, because you probably won't get that either, I'm not calling Tony Jesus. Just pointing out that he's in the same situation and can offer the same answer.
I should get a lawyer to edit my posts for me.
Ben
Red Devil
11-24-01, 03:46 PM
Actually, I thought I was quoting the Muppets! :rolleyes:
*Originally posted by Taken
Many of Gods men were poor,*
And many were really, really wealthy.
*One of Gods men was a poverty stricken snake bite victim.*
None of God's men were snakebite victims.
You're probably thinking of Paul, who wasn't a victim.
And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
(Acts 28:5,6, KJV).
See where it says he felt no harm?
That means he wasn't a victim.
*Jesus said His yoke was easy, He didn't say salvation, or stewardship would be easy. Unless being imprisioned, stoned, blinded, fed by birds in the wilderness, wandering in the desert for years, hung, labeled mentally ill or decapitated was easy by your definition.*
What are you preaching here?
Are you actually saying that it isn't enough to be a poverty-stricken snakebite victim with flu?
One has to be imprisoned, stoned (tiassa, take note), blinded, fed by birds wander for forty years, hanged, mentally ill and decapitated, too?????
Should one be hanged or decapitated first to be considered a true Christian?
*Live in constant fear of death, wander in to unprotected areas where you are not welcome, go hungry, watch your children starve and die of curable diseases, listen as bombs drop around you in the night, read your Bible secretly because the punishment is execution, then sit and say I am holier than thou and am worthy of Gods mercy.*
Could I save a whole bunch of time and hassle, and just say that you are holier-than-thou right now?
*Tony if demons fear you so much, then why haven't you saved these poor lost souls?*
What poor lost souls?
*Have you purchased your ticket to Ethiopia or Afghanistan yet?*
Was I scheduled to go there?
*You don't fear evil, you speak bodly of Gods grace and condemnation from behind your computer screen, why not go where such courage is needed?*
I'm only sitting at my computer when I'm actually sitting at it.
*You can't die or get sick or be harmed because you are under Gods protection according to you so why aren't you out there where such great faith is needed?*
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Romans 8:14, KJV).
The sons of God are those led by the spirit, not those led by Taken's rhetorical questions.
*Where are your works?*
Where are yours?
Where is your ticket to Afghanistan?
*Originally posted by .ed .evil
I thought I was quoting the Muppets!*
You thought wrong.
But speaking of which, how many other things have you thought wrong?
Red Devil
11-24-01, 08:46 PM
Not as many things as you - I do not rely on the mythical babbling of a gang of sheep herders and fishermen!:rolleyes:
*Originally posted by .ed .evil
I do not rely on the mythical babbling of a gang of sheep herders and fishermen! *
Whew!
Neither do I.
I rely on God's word as written by converted ex-fishermen and ex-shepherds.
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(Luke 22:32, KJV).
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
(Acts 3:19, KJV).
No Kalvin I wouldn't have thought that but thank you for clarifying. Jesus chose not to save himself or use the power of God to admonish himself...He did use it to save others. Which is what I was talking about.
I do not believe that Tony has not been sick once since he was saved, I do not believe that if bitten by a poisonous snake that he would live with out medical care. I do not believe demons fear him. His words are empty. I believe all these things are in fact possible, but I do not believe it is so with Tony because his spirit does not speak as that of a man of God, but of a man who fancys himself to be overly important and gifted.
Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. I didn't say a rich man couldn't, nor did I say you had to be poor, but to say that people should get saved because God will help them make money is slanderous. I don't think Jesus died because He feared our electricity would get cut off, or we would have to settle for a 13,000 $ car when the Mercedes was sooo cool. I fear one may have missed the "point" of salvation. Tonys words make Gods grace, and Jesus' death sound like some shallow ritual. It is not about being right, or being powerful or being better than others, it is about love, and humility, and compassion, and LIFE.
A "victim" does not imply someone had to die...if I am mugged, but battle off the thug successfully, I was STILL the victim of an attempted mugging. I didn't say Paul was the victim of "death" by snake bite, but of being bitten, and he was. Are you trying to correct peoples beliefs or their syntax? Many of your post rely completely on interpretations and definitions, but I guess if that's all the fault you can find than so be it.
KalvinB
11-25-01, 07:00 PM
You have very long posts Taken, I don't suppose it's occured to you that no one cares what you believe about Tony so you could cut those parts out.
It would really help for those times you have a point to get across. I don't care to wade through baseless opinion to try to find out if you actually have something to say.
For one who preaches compassion you certainly have none for Tony who you seem to dislike only because he tells you you're wrong.
You made the Devil's wager. What does that say about you?
Ben
I do not dislike Tony. I dislike that his methods of discerning spiritual "truths" turns people away from God. I think Tony's ferver and relentlessness are very admiralble qualitys and are being quite wasted. I would like to see those traits being used to draw the unbelievers in to our loveing Father, as opposed to causing them to see God as an impossible, unforgiving, uncareing dictator. I would very much like to see the HUMAN side of Tony, and I believe there is one. He seems to think he must hide behind some cloud of perfection and be above humility. There should be no shame in being a humble servant. There is no shame in saying I am weak and sinfull, I am unable to overcome but thru Gods grace I am forgiven, and thru Jesus' blood I am redeamed. I am, all of those things and more, and for me to say otherwise would make me nothing more than a liar. It is my desire to draw people nearer to God, not make Him so far removed from their personal lives and troubles that He seems useless and unnesesary to them.
I believe Tony has the basic right ideas but the totally wrong methods; and this is a discussion forum so by posting here he opens himself up to my views and opinions, and I his. You totally lost me on the devils wager part...so I won't reply to it.
KalvinB
11-25-01, 08:30 PM
"as opposed to causing them to see God as an impossible, unforgiving, uncareing dictator."
I must have missed something. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to when Tony put that idea across.
The Devil's Wager:
"If God really..." (fill in the blank with one of God's promises) "then..." (fill in the blank with something that would supposedly prove God's promise)
What does the fact you followed that form with Tony say about you?
Tony quotes the Bible and you quote Satan.
Pretty sad.
Ben
Gee..I sweem to recall saying I believe those things were possible to God. I said I didn't think they were possible for Tony. I have yet to hear Tony speak of Gods power, just his own. There is no sin in saying tony is powerless...because he is. As I said in a different thread, Tony doesn't heal or cast out, God does..a christian is a vessel in Gods service, not a equal partner holding the same ability as God. And if a man of God acts in Gods will he will give the glory to God, to whom it is deserved...not uphold himself as powerfull. This is why I doubt Tony's being of the spirit of God, for the Holy Spirit will always attest to God in all things. The Spirit and the Son both did and do glorify God. Even Jesus said do not call me teacher, for there is only one....it is not I, but the Father who works in me. He always, always, always stood to the side and pointed to God when the work was done. I do not fear that God would chastise me for saying anything good done is to His glory not a mans. And that it is by His power not our own that His will is done. If any man says differently then he is a LIAR!
KalvinB
11-25-01, 10:01 PM
As I said you're asking Tony to test God to see if God really is behind him. The Devil's wager.
"I have yet to hear Tony speak of Gods power, just his own"
That's odd. I read he did these things in the name of Christ.
Are you a judge for God? You've been judging Tony ever since he disagreed with you. And wrongly I may add. You say all these things but apparrently his words are lost in the mess of yours.
Maybe if you'd quote Tony to support your accussations, I'd be more inclinded to think you were righteous in your judgement.
Right now it just sounds like you've joined the opposition's choir without checking your facts first.
Ben
Well I don't figure I need to quote Tony since we are all presumably reading the threads we are posting on. Atleast I thought we would be, but who knows.. Actually I did a search on Tony and read a LOT of his posts early on, some from way back, so I could figure out why everyone seemed so unmoved by him. I did give him the benefit of the doubt, but his posts are his own accusations.
But here is your quote from Tony that I spoke about: "Moses wasn't a Christian.
Christians are sons of God, which means that we can do things the same way God does.
We can speak, and things happen. "
Now Kalvin...lets forget for a moment that you present yourself as tony's "yes-man".
You (I assume) are a Christian, and believe the Bible...would you say that it is Tonys power or Gods power? Honestly.
I really really don't mean that sarcastically, but you spend so much time reiterating Tony and just cheerleading for him, I would really rather know what YOU might actually think for a change. Did Jesus NOT say that it was Gods power working thru Him?
Luke 5:17 One day He was teaching; and there were some Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem; and the power of the Lord was present for Him to perform healing.
1 Cor 6:14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.
2 Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;
60 2 Cor 6:7 in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left,
Col 1:29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
2 Tim 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
Matt 18:19 "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
John 5:43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 8:49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
John 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Now please tell me where in the old or new testament Jesus was the slightest bit unclear about where the power came from. Did He not always glorify God for every good thing?
Jesus said many would claim to have cast out demons and performed signs and wonders in His name but that He would deny knowing them. Yes Tony claims to do these things in the name of Jesus but then he bodley states that it isn't God, but that because he is a christian He has powers equal to Gods....Im sorry, but that is not the Spirit of the Holy Ghost speaking such things.
Heb 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
Read that one two or three times, even break out the concordance if need be...will you say that is pretty self-explanatory?
KalvinB
11-26-01, 01:18 AM
"Now Kalvin...lets forget for a moment that you present yourself as tony's "yes-man"."
How about we remember not to play psychologist. I'm just sick of reading personal evaluations instead of informative debates. Since Tony is the most picked on presently, I've decided to step in and see what all the fuss is about.
Yes I'm reading the same threads and like Oxygen's little "holier than moses" bit, I don't think you really understand what Tony is saying and then attack him based on your assumptions like a bunch of other people here. God forbid you should ask for clarification before shooting off your mouth.
But here is your quote from Tony that I spoke about: "Moses wasn't a Christian. Christians are sons of God, which means that we can do things the same way God does. We can speak, and things happen. "
Yes Tony claims to do these things in the name of Jesus but then he bodley states that it isn't God, but that because he is a christian He has powers equal to Gods
Where does he state it isn't God? We does he say he has powers equal to God? If you'd stop reading between the lines and ask a follow-up question we wouldn't be in the little spat now would we?
He only says we can do things God can do (which is true). He doesn't get into the why or the extent.
but you spend so much time reiterating Tony and just cheerleading for him
You don't even know what "cheerleading" is and you expect to be taken seriously in your analysis of Tony's posts.
Ben
I don't think that "we can do things the SAME WAY God can" required any reading between the lines...nor did the fact that the jist of the post that came from was that the parting of the Red Sea and the miracles done now were equally due to Gods power alone and not mans.
Ouch! Did I offend you? :O)
As for asking for clarification...I have yet to see Tony say we are misunderstanding what he says at all...he actually just defends that what he said is right.
I won't bother with the dictionary on the "cheerleading" thing. :O)
Ok!!! clarification question for Tony...Tony do you have the ability as a human to cast out demons and heal people or is it God that does the actuall miracle? And do you believe that you have more power, or more favor with God than Moses...or any other man for that matter?
Happy Kalvin?
KalvinB
11-26-01, 01:22 PM
"I don't think that "we can do things the SAME WAY God can" required any reading between the lines"
No it doesn't. How does God do things? Last I checked it was by His word. I don't see the problem with that statement.
"And do you believe that you have more power, or more favor with God than Moses...or any other man for that matter?"
We already went over this. He's more chosen than those who aren't chosen.
"Happy Kalvin?"
It's a start.
Ben
See you are not playing fair...the idea was that I allow Tony to clarify his beliefs and thoughts not you doing it for him.
With that I will clarify the question for Tony...
Do you believe that Moses was chosen?
By what proof are you chosen?
A final note for Kalvin.....By GODS word...exactly my Dear Watson...Tony said that "we" speak and things happen...clearly refering to Christians, humans, us people...not God. I say that is not only absurd, but a lie.
KalvinB
11-26-01, 01:37 PM
That's better.
Ben
No it doesn't. How does God do things? Last I checked it was by His word. I don't see the problem with that statement.There is no problem with it, unless one seeks an actual answer.
How does an airplane do things? It flies through the air.
Great, how does it do that? By physics.
Should we be any more clear?
I don't see what the problem is with the statements.
When you say God does things by His Word, what does that mean?
I can tell you a little about making my vocal chords vibrate, and how the sound travels through various media to reach your ears. You cannot tell me even that about God's Word.
Your answer is adequate only if one seeks no real answer.
thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
*Originally posted by Taken
Jesus chose not to save himself or use the power of God to admonish himself...He did use it to save others.*
Like us.
We're the ones he saved.
*I do not believe that Tony has not been sick once since he was saved, I do not believe that if bitten by a poisonous snake that he would live with out medical care. I do not believe demons fear him.*
You may not believe that, but I know for sure that you have been sick, and that you would die from snakebite, and that demons most certainly do not fear you.
*I believe all these things are in fact possible, but I do not believe it is so with Tony because his spirit does not speak as that of a man of God, but of a man who fancys himself to be overly important and gifted.*
Blah, blah.
So how exactly do you suppose that a man of God should sound to meet with your approval?
Like this?
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
(Matthew 12:34, KJV).
Or like this?
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
(Matthew 23:33, KJV).
Or maybe like this?
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mark 16:17,18, KJV).
*I don't think Jesus died because He feared our electricity would get cut off,*
The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of ALL their troubles.
(Psalms 34:17, KJV).
You would probably go to some poor guy's house and laugh at him when his power is getting cut off, because it isn't enough of a problem for Jesus to have saved him from.
*I didn't say Paul was the victim of "death" by snake bite, but of being bitten, and he was.*
And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
(Acts 28:5, KJV).
Felt no harm means felt no harm.
How much of a victim could he be if he felt no harm?
Are you worried about some kind of special harmless snakebite that applies only to Christians, but still leaves you a victim?
*There is no shame in saying I am weak and sinful*
What kind of antichristianity is that?
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
(Ephesians 6:10, KJV).
Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
(Amos 9:8, KJV).
If you are sinful, you will be destroyed.
*I said I didn't think they were possible for Tony.*
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
(Philippians 4:13, KJV).
*There is no sin in saying tony is powerless...because he is.*
Oh yes there is.
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
(Genesis 12:3, KJV).
*Tony doesn't heal or cast out*
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mark 16:17,18, KJV).
*Read that one two or three times, even break out the concordance if need be...will you say that is pretty self-explanatory?*
It is very clear.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
(2 Timothy 3:2-5, KJV).
*Ok!!! clarification question for Tony...Tony do you have the ability as a human to cast out demons and heal people or is it God that does the actuall miracle?*
I have the ability as a believer.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mark 16:17,18, KJV).
*And do you believe that you have more power, or more favor with God than Moses...or any other man for that matter?*
How could I?
The power comes from God, so how could there be "more" power than what God has?
*Do you believe that Moses was chosen?
By what proof are you chosen? *
Was Moses chosen by a proof?
*Tony said that "we" speak and things happen...clearly refering to Christians, humans, us people...not God. I say that is not only absurd, but a lie.*
Completely aside from the fact that your statement is so ridiculously stupid on the face of it, you are directly contradicting God's word.
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
(Mark 11:23, KJV).
When I tell an employee to go do something, he goes and does it.
Isn't that the weirdest thing?
Can you imagine?
I say something, and something happens.
Imagine that!
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