Imortatlity

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Psycho-Cannon, Nov 24, 2003.

  1. Psycho-Cannon Home grown and Psycho Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    744
    Hi all,
    Just a thought that has surfaced, bobed about a bit and sunk in my mind a few times over the years and i figured it was finally time to fish the thing out and slap it gasping for breath on the forums.

    If in the near/intermediate future as some people are predicting we understand enough about the Human Genome, aging process and have the technology to "Fix" the natural fault in our replication where our DNA strings get shorter each time our cells divide until they can't devide anymore and we die.
    (Technical Imortality).
    I say technical because whilst it would stop your DNA Strings "Decaying" you would still be suceptable to disease, bullets and your own stupidity ^_^.
    "we can make man immortal, but we can't find a sure way to stop him sticking sporks into electrical sockets"

    Would this "procedure" be up for grabs for all the rich people who can afford the procedure?
    Would governments or even societies themselves fearing the impact on society of a breed of Technicaly imortal rich banned the procedure?
    If it was allowed (I can't see big American Companies allowing themselves to be cut out of the fortune in this market) how would those rich enough to buy immortality be seen and treated by joe smoe?
    Surely envy of self made gods is easily turned into hate and jelaousy?

    Would they classify it as millitary and use it only on soldiers, not only making sure they are kept in their prime but speed up the replication? making healing faster? or possably even allowing people to re-grow lost limbs naturally in a matter or weeks or months (I imagine their metabolism would be insanely high).

    Basically im just wondering.
    whilst to achieve clinical imortality will be a great step for us, whilst it could benefit man kind in so many ways it would surely have some draw backs.
    The greatest minds would not get old and senile, the best soldiers would not get old and infirm, the most skilled artists and musicians wouldn't age, big business can work joe smoe to the bone at minimal wage for all eternity (yes not all points here are good!) it could probably be tweaked to even allow us to re-grow limbs naturally or heal faster.
    But the world can support a race of immortals that breed at the rate and with the lack of foresight that we humans do.
    The resources struggle to cope with what we are now.
    yet to make this selective will divide the human race itself, men and self made gods, will it work?
     
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  3. scilosopher Registered Senior Member

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    435
    Keeping telomeres from shortening would not give an organism immortality, only the cells in the body. In fact you'd probably die at an earlier age from cancer.
     
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  5. Psycho-Cannon Home grown and Psycho Registered Senior Member

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    DOH!!!!
    Thanks =(
     
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  7. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

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    6,495
    Also I think they'd have to dick with your genetic structure before you were born, because there is, I believe, far too much DNA in a person's body for any single operation to change entirely. That's why we can mess with the color of a test-tube cat's hair (for example), but not after it's born.

    But, science aside, why can't we just say that suddenly immortality is availible?

    I think it would only be ethical if the treatment was availible to everyone, either that it was quite cheap or just free. Society would cease evolving for the better (as I believe that it has been and is doing) if just the rich were allowed to be immortal. But then again, if everyone was immortal, would we have the same effect? Hmmm....
     
  8. voice of reason Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    36
    Psychocannon:

    Don't know if you've seen this site but you might find it interesting given your interest in immortality: KurzweilAI.net

    If nanotechnology delivers on the promise of immortality I don't think it will be limited to the rich. Nanotech promises to bring exponential growth to the material world. Imagine if the exponential progress of the computer world (chips, memory, storage, dna imaging) could apply to the material (cars, medicine, etc.)... the notion of "cost" would quickly become meaningless. The merging of biotech, nanotech, and information technology will bring exactly that (exponential improvement to materials) sometime within the forseeable future, though it might take longer than humans currently living have.

    Kurzweil doesn't think so, and he has some pretty compelling arguments to back up his beliefs.
     
  9. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,297
    Given a few hundred years of biotech development you will find that the lifespan of humanity will increase; to keep a stable population the number of children born will have to match the lowered death rate.
    Eventually the death rate might become minuscule, so children will only be born when a vacancy in the population appears;
    I believe there will be many ways in which this could happen.

    People could leave the Earth to populate other planets, eventually leaving the solar system itself
    (perhaps to go here)...
    some people will be uploaded to become virtual copies of themselves, with the option of becoming advanced electronic entities;
    http://www.orionsarm.com/sophontology/virtuals.html

    some people will opt for long term storage- a kind of one way time travel;
    http://www.orionsarm.com/tech/nanostasis.html

    some might tire of life and elect to live on through their contribution to culture;
    http://www.orionsarm.com/eg/m/Me-Mh.html#metamortalists
    or simply choose to live and die like today's humanity
    http://www.orionsarm.com/topics/Mortalists.html

    there are lots of options...
     
  10. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    4,089
    Anyone reminded of the "Queen" song, "Who wants to live forever?"?
     
  11. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,779
    Pollux:
    ?

    It'd be planetary suicide. Harevest mice reproduce at some 10 times the rate we do and we've all seen the footage of Australian farmers remove a wooden plankto find a plauge of mice in the thousands scamper for cover.

    That's what Earth would look like if nanothechnoly makes us "immortal"

    Oh stuff it. The rich are the last people on earth to know anything about survival. If it were only them to inherit the earth rest assured that survival of our species would end tomorrow.


    Guth:
    No.

    Psycho:
    Good question but I wonder if you've ever read about the Struldbrugs, Swift's account of immortal people living in Lalaputa? Courstesty of his travels:

    "they (Struldbrugs) commonly acted like mortals till about thirty years old; after which, by degrees, they grew melancholy and dejected, increasing in both till they came to fourscore. This he learned from their own confession: for otherwise, there not being above two or three of that species born in an age, they were too few to form a general observation by. When they came to fourscore years, which is reckoned the extremity of living in this country, they had not only all the follies and infirmities of other old men, but many more which arose from the dreadful prospect of never dying. They were not only opinionative, peevish, covetous, morose, vain, talkative, but incapable of friendship, and dead to all natural affection, which never descended below their grandchildren. Envy and impotent desires are their prevailing passions. But those objects against which their envy seems principally directed, are the vices of the younger sort and the deaths of the old. By reflecting on the former, they find themselves cut off from all possibility of pleasure; and whenever they see a funeral, they lament and repine that others have gone to a harbour of rest to which they themselves never can hope to arrive. They have no remembrance of anything but what they learned and observed in their youth and middle-age, and even that is very imperfect; and for the truth or particulars of any fact, it is safer to depend on common tradition, than upon their best recollections. The least miserable among them appear to be those who turn to dotage, and entirely lose their memories; these meet with more pity and assistance, because they want many bad qualities which abound in others."
     
  12. blackmonkeystatue Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    174
    Isn't that the point? We are made of cells, to keep all of our cells alive would keep us alive, we'd be able to bypass Hayflick's limit.

    You are right about the cancer though, after as many cell divisions as we would have, the errors would continue to accumulate. However, if they had the technology to be able to keep telemerase enzymes active which in turn would keep our telomeres from shortening, I'm sure they'd have the technology to also be able to correct whatever transciption errors would occur. Think of the computers we have now, and think of how powerful they'd be by then. Computers would be able to pick out the errors for correctiong...and powerful computers would be needed given the sheer amount of data in DNA. DNA errors are *very very very very* rare, but they do happen...I forgot the numbers.
     
  13. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,996
    Gendanken:

    Immortality would indeed be a curse for those who rush toward death; many, like the Christians, view death as a kind of reward, having convinced themselves that life is a sort of torture and punishment. If a person is suicidal to begin with, it seems that only the prospect of a finite span of years permits them to live out their life.

    But, whether death is a reward, a cessation of existence, or the great unknown, it will always come; even the immortal can't avoid dying forever. If death is something you really want or need, you won't be cheated of it.

    I would personally say that wanting a finite life only betrays a lack of imagination; to be able to live for centuries, for millenia, would provide pastimes and hobbies that are wholly unavailable to we mortal ones... animal breeding being one of my personal favourites. Give me a million years, and I'll breed dogs and cats that are smarter than we are. Maybe one day, I might even understand why stupidity is so endemic to society.

    I like being alive... I don't think that being old would make me unceasingly wish for death.
     
  14. Psycho-Cannon Home grown and Psycho Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    744
    i agree, i see a lot of people trying to "understand" themselves but i don't think a natural life time is enough for this.
    To live through many life times and societies, to see many faces of that which is "Human" would give a great insight and give you experiences and epipanies most of us couldn't ever dream of and set in motion grand plans and actually be there for their culmination.

    I have a stupid quote
    "I'm going to live for ever or die trying"
    the scary thing is i half mean it ^_^ i don't intend to die, i'm not going to go mad fighting the inevitable, but...given the chance...
     
  15. youngbiologist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    78
    books

    recently theres been a shift in thinking by quite a few scientists. Most books written by scientists were pretty cautious, but recently theres been several books by prominant scientists talking about the actual practicality of eternal youth. Two good books are "becoming immortal" and "immortality", both rather recent.
     
  16. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Messages:
    24,066
    I think the point he made was that a cell is a cancerous cell if you turn telomerase on indefinitely. Not that it can turn into a cancer cell, because of accumulation of replication errors.
     
  17. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    Here's a question for everyone on the practicality of immortality.

    If you're immortal, when do you retire?

    Or do you work for ever? In which case, if we stay fit and healthy, not prone to dementia or forgetfulness, and can keep picking up experience and expertise, will be be happy and fulfilled doing the same job, for ever? If not, how will we manage super long careers?

    Personally, I'd have to keep going back to college every 30 or 40 years and change fields, but after a few hundred years, with every science degree possible, and perhaps a PhD or two, what's left? The arts? Give me a break. If being immortal is going to turn me into an artist I'd rather die.
     
  18. voice of reason Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    36
    Well I think that immortality would only be possible with strong nanotech (molecular assemblers). Strong nanotech would be such a disruptive technology (elimination of scarcity of almost all goods) that the notion of "career" would seem pretty old fashioned to immortals.

    I think that we'd probably all go on perpetual holiday. Our "careers" would be whatever made us happy at the time.
     
  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    ... and once it's available, would you want it?

    One of the curses of growing older -- even if you're blessed with remarkably good health as my wife and I are -- is that it's almost impossible to not eventually hear yourself echoing some of the remarks you hated your parents for.

    We still love rock and roll, and not "classic rock." Recent concerts include Filter and Joan Osborne.

    We love South Park and The Daily Show. The Matrix. Have quite a library of computer games. Still care about the planet and its inhabitants of all species.

    Nonetheless, we see the world around us changing in ways that -- well, not that we don't approve of because it's not our place to pass judgment -- but that we just can't stand and feel like the world is passing us by.

    The demise of honor. The majority of Americans seem to think nothing of lying, cheating, stealing, being disloyal to their spouses or lovers. The shallowness. SciForums is about the only place (aside from South Park and The Daily Show

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    ) where people actually think beyond tomorrow's breakfast and worry about the future that they're leaving to children they don't even have yet. The ignorance. Americans are cheering in relief and victory because we've finally caught that nasty tyrant -- who actually had nothing at all to do with 9/11.

    And even the entertainment. OK, rap is supposed to piss us off, that's fine, every generation needs its own music. But the serious, genuine, and well-articulated anger and despair of bands like Godsmack and Staind, it makes it seem like your (most of you) generation has been handed an exceptionally raw deal by your parents.

    It's the breakdown of the family that bothers us most, I guess. We both had childhoods that, by our standards, we thought were textbook illustrations of the word "dysfunctional." Yet my parents stayed married until they died, more than fifty years, and bless their hearts, as incompetent as they were, they at least tried in their own stupid way to be good parents. Most of the parents we see today seem to regard their children as accessories, pets, or outright encumbrances, and they treat their spouses with even deeper contempt.

    People don't treat themselves any better. Anorexia, bulimia, fad diets, letting their gums rot -- even though they've been blessed with lifelong fluoridation and their teeth are in good shape they're falling out anyway. Working themselves to death -- the average work week has grown from 42 hours to 49 hours in one generation. Spending themselves into bankruptcy. And screwing each other to death -- an incredible percentage of the population doesn't bother to use condoms even with a total stranger.

    Our leaders are as bad or worse. They openly defy the law, engage in graft and corruption, spit on the Constitution, and build a police state in the name of Homeland Security. The universities that once fomented political demonstrations are now bastions of political correctness -- and anybody with a GED can get in, even if they have to start off taking remedial English and math. High schools are even worse, and grade schools -- I honestly think kids learn more from Sesame Street. Corporations send all their production offshore to increase their profits, apparently not understanding that once they've put the last American out of work their won't be anybody except the modest-sized population of Canada left to actually buy their products.

    This is all so depressing. Do I sound like my father? Do you see why I'm not enchanted by the prospect of immortality?

    Thank the goddess for you folks. An oasis of sanity.
     

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