To God Be the Glory! [Archive]

View Full Version : To God Be the Glory!

Sir. Loone

04-25-01, 07:42 PM

The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of.

Emerald

04-25-01, 08:15 PM

Sir. Loone,

Originally posted by Sir. Loone
The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of.

Well, at least until it passes on to his beneficiaries, the meek. In the meantime, did you have something you wanted to debate here?

Emerald

Sir. Loone

04-25-01, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Emerald
Sir. Loone,

Well, at least until it passes on to his beneficiaries, the meek. In the meantime, did you have something you wanted to debate here?

Emerald Hi Emerald, I was trying out my new 'avatar' but it just did not show on the screen. Have to find one that fits in a 50x50 pixel space. Know where to find one that fits? Will have one soon if I download it right! To GOD be the Glory!

Emerald

04-25-01, 10:37 PM

Sir. Loone,

Yeah, the 50x50 pixel thing is kind of a bummer. Admittedly, there isn't much to choose from if you don't know how to resize the images. Here are a few examples that should work as they are (size-wise):

Rotating Cross:

http://members.tripod.com/~chr4/animated1

(select "cross15.gif")

Yellow cross:

www.geocities.com/Paris/4378/iconcros.gif

Bible:

www.geocities.com/Paris/4378/bible3.gif

Atom:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/attom.gif

Match burning:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/match.gif

Yellow Rose Blooming:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/roseblum.gif

I hope one of those will do it for you. Good luck!

Emerald

Edit note: The links weren't working as originally done, or even after the second edit - try coping and pasting the address in the internet address window above. If that won't work - I give up!

Okay - so I didn't quite give up, even though I can't get some of the links to work no matter what I do. You might try going directly to the website (leave off the xxxx.gif part at the end of the address), and then when you get there, type in the xxxx.gif following the webpage address. That seems to be working somewhat. Sheesh!

tony1

04-29-01, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Emerald
Well, at least until it passes on to his beneficiaries, the meek.

It's amazing how willing you are to preach the gospel.

Emerald

04-30-01, 01:45 AM

Tony,

Originally posted by tony1

It's amazing how willing you are to preach the gospel.

The Gospel? You mean those 4 books written by plagiarists? Actually, I prefer to give credit where credit is due - in this case, allegedly David:

Psalms 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Apparently the meek will not be equipped with swords. That seems to work in their favor, eventually - at least once that stumblingblock who came not to send peace but a sword is taken up out of the way. You know what they say - he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

Emerald

Sir. Loone

05-02-01, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Emerald
Tony,

The Gospel? You mean those 4 books written by plagiarists? Actually, I prefer to give credit where credit is due - in this case, allegedly David:

Psalms 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Apparently the meek will not be equipped with swords. That seems to work in their favor, eventually - at least once that stumblingblock who came not to send peace but a sword is taken up out of the way. You know what they say - he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

Emerald

A sword? Well I will stand with the sword of the 'Spirit', (the Holy Spirit), which is the word of GOD! :) And in the power of His might (GOD) With the whole Armour of GOD! :)

I was thinking of a sword for an avatar, but I may find something more appropriate for a similey.
:)

Sir. Loone

05-02-01, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by tony1

It's amazing how willing you are to preach the gospel.

Just a thing me and my Lord Jesus has for fulfilling the Great Commission! Make a stand for Jesus! In the power of His might! Jesus lives! Jesus saves! Jesus loves you! Jesus is my Lord and saviour! Jesus cares! GOD is no respecter of persons! ..[thank God!] To Him be all the Glory!

"For the Heavens Declares the Glory of God!"

tony1

05-05-01, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Sir. Loone
Just a thing me and my Lord Jesus has for fulfilling the Great Commission! Make a stand for Jesus! In the power of His might! Jesus lives! Jesus saves! Jesus loves you! Jesus is my Lord and saviour! Jesus cares! GOD is no respecter of persons! ..[thank God!] To Him be all the Glory!

"For the Heavens Declares the Glory of God!"

Amen.
Actually my comment was for Emerald, who seems to be very willing to quote the Bible.
She is a pagan, yet she says things that are true, although I don't thinks she believes them to be true.

In this thread, she essentially said the earth will go to the meek.
This is true, but it is quite possible that her definition and the Bible's definition of meek may differ somewhat.

Emerald

05-05-01, 11:04 PM

Tony,

Originally posted by tony1
In this thread, she essentially said the earth will go to the meek. This is true, but it is quite possible that her definition and the Bible's definition of meek may differ somewhat.

My definition of meek? Mild-mannered, passive, unassuming, humble - quite the opposite of the sword-bearing, aggressive, warrior type. It doesn't seem to differ all that much from the biblical meaning, as given in the concordance:

06035 `anav {aw-nawv'} or [by intermixture with 6041]`anayv {aw-nawv'}

from 06031; TWOT - 1652a; n m

AV - meek 13, humble 5, poor 5, lowly 2, vr meek 1; 26

1) poor, humble, afflicted, meek
1a) poor, needy
1b) poor and weak
1c) poor, weak and afflicted
1d) humble, lowly, meek

I didn't include words like "poor", "needy", "weak", "lowly" or "afflicted" in my definition, but by their very nature, the meek are likely to fall into these categories as well. The likelihood of inheriting the earth increases for those who aren't engaged in the battle for the earth, as the rest of the human race will probably have succeeded in killing each other off. Make sense?

Emerald

Sir. Loone

05-06-01, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Emerald
Sir. Loone,

Yeah, the 50x50 pixel thing is kind of a bummer. Admittedly, there isn't much to choose from if you don't know how to resize the images. Here are a few examples that should work as they are (size-wise):

Rotating Cross:

http://members.tripod.com/~chr4/animated1

(select "cross15.gif")

Yellow cross:

www.geocities.com/Paris/4378/iconcros.gif

Bible:

www.geocities.com/Paris/4378/bible3.gif

Atom:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/attom.gif

Match burning:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/match.gif

Yellow Rose Blooming:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/roseblum.gif

I hope one of those will do it for you. Good luck!

Emerald

Edit note: The links weren't working as originally done, or even after the second edit - try coping and pasting the address in the internet address window above. If that won't work - I give up!

Okay - so I didn't quite give up, even though I can't get some of the links to work no matter what I do. You might try going directly to the website (leave off the xxxx.gif part at the end of the address), and then when you get there, type in the xxxx.gif following the webpage address. That seems to be working somewhat. Sheesh!

Well I have tried, and could not get any to work. Thank you! :) But I will try another site I think will work if I can find it again. God is, and He is Glorified forevermore!

Sir. Loone

05-06-01, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by tony1

Amen.
Actually my comment was for Emerald, who seems to be very willing to quote the Bible.
She is a pagan, yet she says things that are true, although I don't thinks she believes them to be true.

In this thread, she essentially said the earth will go to the meek.
This is true, but it is quite possible that her definition and the Bible's definition of meek may differ somewhat.

Amen Tony 1, meek is not weak! But strong and mighty in the hands of GOD! Humble is not being cowardly or that other word I can't write it now for some reason. But the humble to GOD shell be lifted up! Servants of the most high GOD! GOD is love! "For the Heavens declares the Glory of GOD!"

Stand firm Tony 1 ! "For greater is He that is in YOU then he that is in the world."

Emerald

05-06-01, 05:27 PM

Sir. Loone,

Originally posted by Sir. Loone

Amen Tony 1, meek is not weak! But strong and mighty in the hands of GOD! Humble is not being cowardly or that other word I can't write it now for some reason.

After reading the definition given in the concordance, I think the one word that sums it all up is, "downtrodden". And if you will notice, the concordance did use the word "weak".

Emerald

Sir. Loone

05-06-01, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Emerald
Sir. Loone,

After reading the definition given in the concordance, I think the one word that sums it all up is, "downtrodden". And if you will notice, the concordance did use the word "weak".

Emerald

You most be born again to understand! :) Meek is not weak but in the hands of Almighty GOD it IS powerful! To be humble unto GOD! Where we're at our weakest, GOD is at His most powerfulest! :) Glory be to GOD!! Ask Jesus!

Emerald

05-06-01, 06:48 PM

Sir. Loone,

Originally posted by Sir. Loone
You most be born again to understand! :) Meek is not weak but in the hands of Almighty GOD it IS powerful! To be humble unto GOD! Where we're at our weakest, GOD is at His most powerfulest! :) Glory be to GOD!! Ask Jesus!

Hey, I didn't write the concordance - I just use it as a reference. Take it up with James Strong and George Wigram. Of course, you'd have to hold a seance, and I'm pretty sure that's one of the many activities forbidden by your god - so I'm thinking you'll just have to live with it for now.

Emerald

Tiassa

05-06-01, 07:24 PM

My definition of meek? Mild-mannered, passive, unassuming, humble - quite the opposite of the sword-bearing, aggressive, warrior type. It doesn't seem to differ all that much from the biblical meaning, as given in the concordance:
This is one of the occasions on which I choose to reassert a notion which, while I'm quite sure it exists in a thousand forms, was presented to me perhaps most noticeably in my life by Steven Brust; unfortunately, my copy of Jhereg presently resides on a friend's bookshelf, and apparently for aesthetic reasons only, but I won't editorialize that here.

Brust's character, Vlad, and his assistant, Kragar, have occasion to discuss an organized-crime higher-up whom Vlad is supposed to meet for contract work. As they discuss the past of this higher-up, it is noted that nobody really knows where he came from, except during a period that the organization was in dire straits, he shone as the organizing beacon. They note that, "He never really made it to the top; he just looked around, one day, and called where he was the top." The implication, of course, being that were it not the top of the organization, someone would have let him know.

But this idea translates into life, at a base level. When I was 22, I had occasion to ask my mother, as her marriage began to destabilize, "Are you happy?" When she said yes, I invoked the question: "Are you sure you've found happiness, or have you found something and called it happiness?" As a side note, three months later, my Dad moved out of their house and holed up on his boat. They get along just fine, today, but he's not moving back to the house.

I had dropped out of college right about the time the OJ Simpson trial was coming to its glory. To apply the issue of redefinition, had the LAPD and the DA's office described what happened, or had they described something and redefined it as what actually happened? I use this because it's a naked example; we might find more legitimate examples in drug-related prosecutions, but I'm more concerned with the idea of what really happened versus what a jury chooses to believe happened. A juror may send an innocent man to his death, and live the rest of his life believing that the falsehoods of the courtroom were truth enough to commission death.

Since I mention the drug war: Do we legislate against pot because it's dangerous, or because we choose to call it dangerous. This is a slight variation, though I find common the notion of redefining a standard in order to preserve the apperance of right. Of course, that might be the underlying thing.

That the mobster calls it the top is because he can't figure out where to go next; that my mother called it happiness might be because she couldn't conceive of a higher, or genuine order of happiness; that an innocent man might hang is a community sacrifice, for someone must be punished, and it is easier to accept that this is reality than to determine reality itself; that marijuana is more hazardous and addictive than methamphetamine comes from the inability of those who make such policies to consider anything but greed. In all of these cases, a redefinition observable reality must necessarily take place.

Blessed are the meek ... indeed, what meek carry swords and scourge nations in the name of righteousness? Yet these soldiers of Christ believe themselves meek because they fear God; yet God is no respecter of persons, and it might thus be concluded that the meek have no need to respect those outside of God's reality. I see a similar redefinition taking place within the device by which the meek assert their will so much that an artist can be arrested for violating a meek person's notion of good taste. Or where the meek would encourage legislation whereby their standard would be enforced in such a manner as to create a new meek. When I think of Jerry Falwell telling Larry Flynt, "You can't make fun of me, but I have the right to excoriate you publicly" (effect of process, I doubt I could find such an exacting quote, but hey, Falwell sued Flynt ... I think that's a clear attempt to enforce the will of the so-called meek) I think, "How meek are you that you must call the law down upon a man and attack his basic rights?" In other words, why could the so-called meek (Falwell) complain about art, yet the artists and their supporters should not be allowed to complain about the meek in their own terms? This particular brand of meek that we see in the world roars awful loudly. Were I trapped in The Simpsons, I would have to consider Nelson Muntz as the meekest of them all.

At any rate, I hope it's not too much a digression, but the recent disagreement about the meek got me to thinking. It kind of brought to mind an image from my own failing relationship with another. There was always one standard: I should not be angry with her in public; it is inappropriate that other people should have to see that, and besides, it's embarassing. Yet this "meek" one will holler and stomp and pout and cry in public if she doesn't get her way. It's simply a matter of standards and consistency. I will never say that certain theists, such as the Christian meek, are obliged to behave any differently than the rest of selfish humanity, except for the fact that I've always learned that they are instructed to behave better by their God. Perhaps that's my error, but simple redefinitions of God's Word can justify much that does not qualify as meek.

(I'll stop now.)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Sir. Loone

05-07-01, 05:58 PM

You seem to have a misconception of 'meek', and the 'sword of the Spirit' (the Word of GOD). Jesus was 'meek', but He was and is the strongest of us all! The Holy Bible is the sword of the spirit, and in the heart of a true (born from above) believer it is the most powerful force in the entire universe! I mean it was the power that created everything in the beginning!

I will say more about the Bible the Word of GOD as a sword of the Spirit. You may be thinking of those 'Crusaders' of mid evil times. :D

Tiassa

05-07-01, 07:31 PM

The problem with a sword is that it's designed to hurt. Now, we're not talking about sharp edges, you know, as in a scalpel that can heal, or a scythe that feeds the body by its destruction. A sword is specifically designed as a weapon; an instrument of killing and destruction.

* Would you say that you're trying to gun people down with the holy bullets of the Lord's Spirit?

And the sword of the spirt it may be, but one of my co-workers just e-mailed me what sounds like Stryper singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic. To call it the sword of the spirit is a cop-out. And I would advise a perusal of my comments in the Atheism forum, regarding the God is thread wherein I explain much about why the evil Crusaders are important in the modern context. After all, the ideas of superiority and comparative morality which motivated the tragedies of history are alive and kicking in the modern context; I will choose not to Thank God if it is observed that the primary difference 'twixt then and now is that killing the infidels or other offenders is not as uniformly acceptable. After all, in God's kingdom, one could die for disagreeing with a preacher. His Truth is marching on, indeed, over the corpses of a billion infidels who wondered why it is that His followers just couldn't manage to provide the advertised disposition.

Sword of the spirit .... It's all still warfare.

--Tiassa :cool:

Sir. Loone

06-07-01, 07:42 PM

Sir. Loone

06-07-01, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Emerald
Sir. Loone,

Yeah, the 50x50 pixel thing is kind of a bummer. Admittedly, there isn't much to choose from if you don't know how to resize the images. Here are a few examples that should work as they are (size-wise):

Rotating Cross:

http://members.tripod.com/~chr4/animated1

(select "cross15.gif")

Yellow cross:

www.geocities.com/Paris/4378/iconcros.gif

Bible:

www.geocities.com/Paris/4378/bible3.gif

Atom:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/attom.gif

Match burning:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/match.gif

Yellow Rose Blooming:

www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Docks/2140/roseblum.gif

I hope one of those will do it for you. Good luck!

Emerald

Edit note: The links weren't working as originally done, or even after the second edit - try coping and pasting the address in the internet address window above. If that won't work - I give up!

Okay - so I didn't quite give up, even though I can't get some of the links to work no matter what I do. You might try going directly to the website (leave off the xxxx.gif part at the end of the address), and then when you get there, type in the xxxx.gif following the webpage address. That seems to be working somewhat. Sheesh!

Thank you very much Emerald for helping me find that Avatar!
To the Glory of God! See you on the posts!:D
Took me a long time to understand how to put it in, but finally got it! Thank you.

Sir. Loone

06-07-01, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by tiassa
The problem with a sword is that it's designed to hurt. Now, we're not talking about sharp edges, you know, as in a scalpel that can heal, or a scythe that feeds the body by its destruction. A sword is specifically designed as a weapon; an instrument of killing and destruction.

* Would you say that you're trying to gun people down with the holy bullets of the Lord's Spirit?

And the sword of the spirt it may be, but one of my co-workers just e-mailed me what sounds like Stryper singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic. To call it the sword of the spirit is a cop-out. And I would advise a perusal of my comments in the Atheism forum, regarding the God is thread wherein I explain much about why the evil Crusaders are important in the modern context. After all, the ideas of superiority and comparative morality which motivated the tragedies of history are alive and kicking in the modern context; I will choose not to Thank God if it is observed that the primary difference 'twixt then and now is that killing the infidels or other offenders is not as uniformly acceptable. After all, in God's kingdom, one could die for disagreeing with a preacher. His Truth is marching on, indeed, over the corpses of a billion infidels who wondered why it is that His followers just couldn't manage to provide the advertised disposition.

Sword of the spirit .... It's all still warfare.

--Tiassa :cool:

The "Sword of the Spirit" (Holy Spirit) is the Word of GOD, and the whole universe was created by the spoken Word of GOD, so it creates, so can it heal, and it can destroy. It can be a guiding light, like a 'light saber' only infinitely more powerful in GOD's hands and is as a two edged sword. It is truth and light. But I have seen unbelievers trying to use the Word of God on forums like this and there 'misinterpretations' has no bass, no power and I find nothing to gain of there misquotes and contradictions of scriptures and those things in scripture that seems to contradict them selves [although we note these so called contradictions] :rolleyes: we know that there interpretations don't have the Spirit, the Holy Spirit behind it, even I can detect a folly.
But in the heart of a true believer, with faith the Word of GOD is life, even life everlasting! More later.

Emerald

06-07-01, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by Sir. Loone

Thank you very much Emerald for helping me find that Avatar!
To the Glory of God! See you on the posts!:D
Took me a long time to understand how to put it in, but finally got it! Thank you.

You're quite welcome - I'm glad you liked it. :)

Emerald

Sir. Loone

06-10-01, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Emerald
Sir. Loone,

Hey, I didn't write the concordance - I just use it as a reference. Take it up with James Strong and George Wigram. Of course, you'd have to hold a seance, and I'm pretty sure that's one of the many activities forbidden by your god - so I'm thinking you'll just have to live with it for now.

Emerald

No Emerald, :rolleyes: we (Christians) never have to hold "seances" for any reason. Jesus is my (our) all in all, and when we humble our selves to Him with meekness, we are strong! GOD is not 'god', like as the pagan or unbelievers would have it, He is GOD Supreme! Above all time, dimensions, and "Principalities", Powers, and all 'Spiritual wickedness' in High places, (governments, demonic forces, etc.) all under GOD's control! He is real, He is a Spirit, and the Son of God Jesus is one in the same, He, God in three persons is a person and not a force or a 'cosmic-mind'. There is power in Faith in GOD when we empty our self, (crucifying the 'god' of self) turn from our wicked ways, and He will come in to my life, and it will be I in Him and He in me! "For greater is He that is in me then he that is in the world." :o :) That's real power!

Tiassa

06-10-01, 05:40 PM

Loone--The "Sword of the Spirit" (Holy Spirit) is the Word of GOD, and the whole universe was created by the spoken Word of GOD, so it creates, so can it heal, and it can destroy. It can be a guiding light, like a 'light saber' only infinitely more powerful in GOD's hands and is as a two edged sword. 2 notes:

1) A sword is a killing instrument. A katana was not designed to perform appendectomies any more than a scalpel was designed to fight duels.

2) A light saber is, nonetheless, a killing instrument. I recall no Jedi wandering through a dark wood on Degobah holding aloft a lightsaber in one hand and shielding his eyes against the immediate glare with the other.But I have seen unbelievers trying to use the Word of God on forums like this and there 'misinterpretations' has no bass, no power and I find nothing to gain of there misquotes and contradictions of scriptures and those things in scripture that seems to contradict them selves So, Loone ... how exactly do you read?

What I mean by that is that you seem to imply something about how the unbelievers perceive the Bible? It seems to me that you are implying that one should believe in and accept the credibility of the Bible before reading it. In other words, one should accept the Word of God before knowing what that word is. As to contradictions, did you miss the topics in the past we've devoted to Biblical contradictions? Or have you dismissed those out of hand because those who point out Biblical contradiction were unfair and decided not to accept the Bible as the true Word of God before reading it?

What's wrong, Loone? Why don't Christians want converts to come to faith honestly? Perhaps because when given honest consideration, the Bible doesn't merit faith?

I just don't understand why the merciful Christians are so obsessed with killing.

Still, though, it might explain the rise in handgun violence: Put a cap in his ass for God .... :rolleyes:

Mine eyes have seen the coming of the Glory of the Lord. And in His passing I find only death and hatred. The living produce of the Word of God is a wretched affair.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Sir. Loone

06-10-01, 06:06 PM

Sir. Loone

06-10-01, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by tiassa
Loone--2 notes:

1) A sword is a killing instrument. A katana was not designed to perform appendectomies any more than a scalpel was designed to fight duels.

2) A light saber is, nonetheless, a killing instrument. I recall no Jedi wandering through a dark wood on Degobah holding aloft a lightsaber in one hand and shielding his eyes against the immediate glare with the other.So, Loone ... how exactly do you read?

What I mean by that is that you seem to imply something about how the unbelievers perceive the Bible? It seems to me that you are implying that one should believe in and accept the credibility of the Bible before reading it. In other words, one should accept the Word of God before knowing what that word is. As to contradictions, did you miss the topics in the past we've devoted to Biblical contradictions? Or have you dismissed those out of hand because those who point out Biblical contradiction were unfair and decided not to accept the Bible as the true Word of God before reading it?

What's wrong, Loone? Why don't Christians want converts to come to faith honestly? Perhaps because when given honest consideration, the Bible doesn't merit faith?

I just don't understand why the merciful Christians are so obsessed with killing.

Still, though, it might explain the rise in handgun violence: Put a cap in his ass for God .... :rolleyes:

Mine eyes have seen the coming of the Glory of the Lord. And in His passing I find only death and hatred. The living produce of the Word of God is a wretched affair.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

:D Your way off there Tiassa, your still thing in the 'natural' and the "Sword of the Spirit" is the Word of GOD! And that is what it is said in the Word of GOD. (Bible) It is a supernatural weapon!

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." What we mean by putting on the armor of God, is to put on Jesus! Our fight is not carnal, it's against the wilds of the Devil.

Your misinterpreting that you would not understand and again I say our weapons are not carnal! You must be born again to fully understand. And have heart knowledge. Instead of carnal knowledge. :)

Tiassa

06-10-01, 06:51 PM

It saddens me that a religion that asserts forgiveness, harmony of spirit, and devotion to life can inspire such violent impulses in its believers.

Your need to wield a weapon against other people is exactly what I despise about Christianity.

It is up to you to choose to hate people or to learn from them. Faith in Christ has been called, by Aquinas, I believe, the sacrifice of the intellect. I guess that explains why your brand of Christianity chooses what it does. After such a sacrifice, what's left to learn?

--Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa

06-11-01, 11:26 PM

So, Loone ... are you starting to see the danger?IN other Words, WE the CHURCH WILL CRUSH your ancient serpent who whispers:
"An ye harm none, do what ye will." (Lawdog, Crumbling the Foundations of Christianity, 6/9/2001)Do you see what happens when people of your faith disagree with your sense of spiritual metaphor? This is what happens when a religion appeals to the worst in humanity, and dictates it. That you are born into sin is the most dangerous load of horsepucky to litter the Earth.For if those who interprete scripture for themselves were in charge, as they were at Salem, we would be sorrowing over your condemned eternal soul. (Lawdog, ibid, 6/11/2001)What ever happened to Thou shalt not kill?

That someone of this faith should threaten a culture with obliteration surprises me not, for there are a number of violent metaphors; then again, this particular deity, in its history, has been called by its adherents Yahweh Sabaoth, or "God of Armies".

I mean, with such examples as your brother in faith has provided, why should I expect modern faith to be any different from the faith of old? Shall the armies march in preparation for peace? Or does that peace come when there are no others left?

I don't understand such violent religions as this: they're intentionally detrimental to society.

What we know from one side of the Christian aisle is that church culture is bad; what we see from the other is that individual interpretation can be exceptionally dangerous; some perfection on that Word of God.

A hearty, "Good show!" to all Christians: thank you for begetting such sentiments unto the world. This is your faith represented: that in Jesus Christ your Lord.

Or should those of us targeted by your brethren simply assume that you approve of such sentiments?

--Tiassa :cool:

Deadwood

06-12-01, 07:53 AM

Tiassa, the sword of the Spirit is the word of God. We do not wield such a weapon, a double edged sword, to bring death but life through the blood of our blessed Saviour Jesus Christ. The sword of the Spirit brings life. The sword of flesh brings death, sin and destruction.

I am also saddened that so called angels of light have gone into this world. That satan uses people who proclaim to profess the word of God yet do not even know Him in their hearts. I talk about the so called Christians who go out praising God while hurting, killing and causing destruction. One of my Islamic friends even got bashed up from a gang of Lebonese so called Christians. He got bashed about 8-12 months ago and yet his eye is still dark around. Now he holds a grudge against Christ. Though in his religion he is the second highest prophet to Mohummad. It really saddens me. That could be called an understatement. Our Lord, would not sanction such a thing. Only when they repent will they be accepted. I hope they [the gang] do and instead of bashing up people becasue they do not believe, they can show them love. For though the majority of Roman people were against Christians and killed them in the most brutal fashions, one thing they could not hold against them was "see how they love".

Phillipians ch1
8
God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
9
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
10
so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ,
11
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
12
Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel.
13
As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard[2] and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ.
14
Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly.
15
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.
16
The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.
17
The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[3]

Some preach Christ just so they have a reason to make it harder for us and it is. I do understand your sentiments at the crusade and the inquisition. Don't think for one moment that I would put that on to anyone because they refused to believe. Remember, forgiveness is a huge part of Christianity. We are in need of forgiveness as well. even if it is on the part of non Christians who thought they were doing the will of God and were full of hate, and not love. I talked to Pragmathen, that if we do all the Word of God tells us to and yet have not love then we are nothing. Tiassa, you testify to the fact. God bless you for doing so, so that we might have a wake up call and wake up to the Gospel.

Sir. Loone

06-12-01, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by tiassa
So, Loone ... are you starting to see the danger?Do you see what happens when people of your faith disagree with your sense of spiritual metaphor? This is what happens when a religion appeals to the worst in humanity, and dictates it. That you are born into sin is the most dangerous load of horsepucky to litter the Earth.What ever happened to Thou shalt not kill?

That someone of this faith should threaten a culture with obliteration surprises me not, for there are a number of violent metaphors; then again, this particular deity, in its history, has been called by its adherents Yahweh Sabaoth, or "God of Armies".

I mean, with such examples as your brother in faith has provided, why should I expect modern faith to be any different from the faith of old? Shall the armies march in preparation for peace? Or does that peace come when there are no others left?

I don't understand such violent religions as this: they're intentionally detrimental to society.

What we know from one side of the Christian aisle is that church culture is bad; what we see from the other is that individual interpretation can be exceptionally dangerous; some perfection on that Word of God.

A hearty, "Good show!" to all Christians: thank you for begetting such sentiments unto the world. This is your faith represented: that in Jesus Christ your Lord.

Or should those of us targeted by your brethren simply assume that you approve of such sentiments?

--Tiassa

Tiassa, your in the natural, that is that a natural (physical) sword only kills and maims a person or what ever. But The Sword of the Spirit (The Word of God) is of the SUPERNATURAL and the universe did come into being by the word of God. It can do all things in the heart of a true believer and the only way for you to fully understand is to be born-again. If Jesus Christ be in you, the word of God will have a new meaning to you and power to stand against the dark forces of this world. But to be just sitting on the fence post, just reading the scriptures with no real understanding, that is just what is called 'head knowledge'. The Living Bible is a SUPERNATURAL BOOK, it IS from GOD Himself! there's far more then meets the eye in the Word of God that the unregenerate people could never really understand what they are reading, let alone what they (you) are talking about referring to the Holy Scriptures!
:rolleyes:

We are simply are not "slashing around with deadly weapons.":D ha, ha, oh boy! And esp. not to get more converts to the Faith, as some Islamic Extremist are doing in those 'Third World Nations' I here about in the news so much lately.

Out side the author of the Holy Word of God, the Holy Spirit, you will not really understand what you are reading or quoting of scripture. Ask Jesus, ask Him now, He is the only one you can turn to for the revealing of the Word of God! Jesus saves! [The 'revealing' of the Word of GOD to you through the power of the HOLY SPIRIT.] the only way!

pragmathen

06-12-01, 06:33 PM

Loone,

<blockquote>
quote:
<hr>
Originally posted by Sir. Loone:
Ask Jesus, ask Him now, He is the only one you can turn to for the revealing of the Word of God! Jesus saves!
<hr>
</blockquote>

What if we happened to ask Jesus, as you say, and Jesus came back with, "You know what, don't read the Word of God. Don't give into that ill-fated propagandist dogma. Don't believe these things" ... ? What if that happened?

Aside from your obvious response of, "Well, that would mean that you got your answer from an imposter Jesus, perhaps even the Devil! Praise God!", perhaps it has undertones of what's the sense in asking in the first place? If someone asks Jesus and it turns out that Jesus says, "Bingo! Don't follow the supposed followers of me, but walk your own path, making sure to not harm others," then that means that Jesus really does answer prayers. But, obviously that can't be correct. So, Loone, the best way to ask Jesus if the Word of God is correct is to not ask Jesus. Because it is a mathematical given that the Word of God is correct and just, therefore praying about it is academic. No sense in asking Jesus if it's right since it is. No sense in you being skeptical about your position as a Christian first, human second.

Prayers in order to find out if something is true are handicapped from the beginning. If you receive an answer in the negative, then you prayed wrong or got the answer from a deceptive spirit. If you receive an answer in the affirmative, then you prayed correctly. So, the only way to pray is to pray correctly, which means to keep praying until you realize that Christianity is the best way. Didn't get your answer yet? That's all right, keep praying until you do. Don't worry, you will. And if you don't, you might as well say you did, because it's correct anyway, whether you get a yes or a no answer.

Loone, if you happen to get a chance, I'd recommend cracking open a standard history book, preferably one that wasn't written by glorious Christians and see if the facts stack up. You might understand why tiassa would think of the Sword of Christianity as literal, rather than figurative. Oh boy, indeed. Hell, you might even realize that third world nations with pagan religions aren't as heinous as first world nations with Christianity.

Tiassa

06-12-01, 07:03 PM

We might see a deeper problem here: your utter lack of human empathy, which is a natural result of this religion you profess, has caused you to think that your fellow Christians share your interpretation of warlike metaphors.

Stop hiding behind your own veil of falsehoods: your religion of reconciliation must first divide. Soldiers of Christ, marching forth, creating ... peace? That's like Multitudes of squares, rolling up the hill.

Here at Sciforums we see one of your fellow Christians threatening entire cultures. We see the endorsement of murder. And here you two sit making excuses for this kind of crap.

Clean up your own damn house and leave the rest of the world alone! Just because we won't repay you genocide for genocide does not constitute our endorsement of your hateful religion. Get your damn issues straight before you wish them onto other people. The detriment you cause with your faith results from the obfuscation of issues: there are teenagers getting pregnant and people dying of AIDS, yet we're having trouble getting after the root of it because of Christians. Take your sexual purity and stick it some place impure.

Christians ought to show the world what their religion brings instead of talk about it. After all, the real demonstration is the more effective argument. Unfortunately, division and death are the real demonstrations of your faith.

Make your pathetic excuses of metaphor all you want. It most definitely sounds more fun for you than trying to figure out why you've chosen to support such hatred and destruction, and justifying the authority of God your fancy has created.

But get your own shite in order, end of story. Or else bring on the Fire and see what it earns you. We will not go down quietly, but we will steal away your salvation in our passing. Is it worth the forfeiture of redemption just to be "right"? Apparently so, because that's all Christianity has worried about since its inception.

Your continuation of anticultural hatred founded by the earliest Christian evangelists surprises the rest of us none.

What will you say to God upon the moment of your condemnation? Or is it that you know you're too pathetic for your own standards, thus expecting condemnation, and intending to take the lot of us down with you?

Stop your campaign of hatred and violence: Were it not for Christians like yourself, Jesus wouldn't have to bleed.

--Tiassa :cool:

Sir. Loone

06-12-01, 07:50 PM

Hi, Pragmatan, first I would know that he that speaks is not Jesus!:) He knows His Father's Words. And He, Jesus, IS the Word of God! The Bible would not be rejected by it's own Author!

The Sword of the Spirit [which is the Word of GOD] is definitely not figurative, Believe it or not, well you may not but that will never change anything, it is real, and Jesus Himself will come again with it to smite the nations that forget GOD!

See it this way, your tongue or your words can be a powerful weapon, and can harm many! Or it can do the opposite. And the Word of God, that comes out of the mouth of God, esp. at His 2cd coming is like unto a two edged sword. You have a sword, but it is not of the infinite power, it can be used to create esp. when your a boss of a company with authority, and hire and fire employees, or to Command armies if you were an President or King. Depending that who you are in life. And with the tongue you can hurt more people then you think. Well the Sword of the Spirit is real because it is the Word of God and is powerful because it is what created all that you see and don't see, and it will recreate this universe soon enough in the near future! The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit, and only the 'saved' of God could use it by the power of the Holy Spirit of God and that the Word is far more then what you have been told. Think of a brand new car just sitting there, [the book] , and you, fill it with gas then get in and go where ever, if you did not know how to start it, or know to fill it with gas, it would go no were, you just be playing around with the controls( to say you did not really understand what your doing). With out the Spirit of God in you it would make little or no since at a glance. Actually the Word of God is far ahead of us, you think it's old fashioned but it is of GOD and He is God past , present, and the future (the Beginning and the end) . Science is barely catching up on the Bible but only so far and along way to go! Sword of the Spirit! There is an anti-Christian 'spirit' that would keep you from coming to the knowledge of truth! Beware!

Sir. Loone

06-12-01, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by tiassa
We might see a deeper problem here: your utter lack of human empathy, which is a natural result of this religion you profess, has caused you to think that your fellow Christians share your interpretation of warlike metaphors.

Stop hiding behind your own veil of falsehoods: your religion of reconciliation must first divide. Soldiers of Christ, marching forth, creating ... peace? That's like Multitudes of squares, rolling up the hill.

Here at Sciforums we see one of your fellow Christians threatening entire cultures. We see the endorsement of murder. And here you two sit making excuses for this kind of crap.

Clean up your own damn house and leave the rest of the world alone! Just because we won't repay you genocide for genocide does not constitute our endorsement of your hateful religion. Get your damn issues straight before you wish them onto other people. The detriment you cause with your faith results from the obfuscation of issues: there are teenagers getting pregnant and people dying of AIDS, yet we're having trouble getting after the root of it because of Christians. Take your sexual purity and stick it some place impure.

Christians ought to show the world what their religion brings instead of talk about it. After all, the real demonstration is the more effective argument. Unfortunately, division and death are the real demonstrations of your faith.

Make your pathetic excuses of metaphor all you want. It most definitely sounds more fun for you than trying to figure out why you've chosen to support such hatred and destruction, and justifying the authority of God your fancy has created.

But get your own shite in order, end of story. Or else bring on the Fire and see what it earns you. We will not go down quietly, but we will steal away your salvation in our passing. Is it worth the forfeiture of redemption just to be "right"? Apparently so, because that's all Christianity has worried about since its inception.

Your continuation of anticultural hatred founded by the earliest Christian evangelists surprises the rest of us none.

What will you say to God upon the moment of your condemnation? Or is it that you know you're too pathetic for your own standards, thus expecting condemnation, and intending to take the lot of us down with you?

Stop your campaign of hatred and violence: Were it not for Christians like yourself, Jesus wouldn't have to bleed.

--Tiassa :cool: It's more then a collection of words, and you will here of this in the coming of eternity! God's will be done, I hope you will soon come to a saving knowledge of the Bible before it's too late;) Jesus saves!

With GOD all things are posible!

pragmathen

06-12-01, 10:56 PM

Loone,

You are a master spokesman for the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

I can see how God would choose you especially to send forth His word among the nations. Unbelieving heathens everywhere can flock and be destroyed with one fell swoop of your intelligent utterances. The Sword of the Spirit literally cleaves families in twain, raises its bloody self up and is subsequently glorified by your compassionate words. Your knowledge and use of imagery supercedes any dastardly scientist, what with their faked diplomas of accomplishment and their sinister ulterior motives. You see directly through all the funk that mucks the reasoner and the logician. Your simple means of communicating and your simple manner of thinking is no match for either profound theologians of your own faith or average people like myself. But that's okay, because God has chosen you! He chooses the simple things of the Earth, because the non-simple things have seen through his vile plans. What better way to spread the Word of God than through force with the Sword of the Spirit? What better way to convert others than showing that even children (and those that continue to think as children) embrace the Word without even a hint of doubt?

Mr Bin,

When in doubt, continue to dodge questions and histories and facts as you've done in the past. As you will continue to do in the future. You do so because God wills you to do so. He doesn't want you to look; if it doesn't make sense, just put it on the back burner--eventually God will let you know about it. And never mind that mushy matter that floats between your ears--you won't need it! God has no need of anyone with a brain that questions or reasons, so leave yours at home.

As you say, Beware. Beware lest Christianity drags you into the dust along with all of its other adherents. Beware lest the capacity to reason leaves you bereft of conscious thought and empathy towards your fellow human beings. Beware lest you continue in the same tired old paths that your mind is in.

Loon,

You have decidedly tossed your thinking processes out the window somewhere down the line. When was it? Can you clearly identify the period or experience where you started thinking thus? I can for myself, but I think you may be too far gone to remember for you.

Okay, when you respond to this, make sure it's as easily predictable as all the others. Wouldn't want to upset that God that's behind the eye twitches ...

prag

Deadwood

06-13-01, 09:02 AM

May God bless you all. :)

pragmathen

06-13-01, 12:54 PM

<blockquote>
quote:
<hr>
Originally posted by Deadwood:
May God bless you all.:)
<hr>
</blockquote>

Deadwood. I have to wonder. Can you distance yourself from your wayward Christian brethren now, after having posted this?

This statement has as much efficacy on the non-believers as me saying to you, "May Science open your eyes."

You want to know the really sucky thing about Christianity? There are some really good people within the religion that, unfortunately, must subscribe to even the terrible tenets of doctrine. Every Christian religion has something terrible in their respective past which is difficult for present members to accept. But they have to accept it and blindly believe that there must have been a reason else why would God allow it to occur. The alternative--that the Christian God doesn't exist--is not something that Christians like to entertain.

So, in return, I leave you with this.

"May God continue to stunt your intellectual growth and empathy towards your fellow humans."

Sir. Loone

06-13-01, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Deadwood
May God bless you all. :)
And may God bless you 'Deadwood' :cool: [smiles not pretentious]
Always pray for us all on this site! WE really need it! ;)

Tiassa

06-13-01, 04:13 PM

Deadwood--

A couple of points I didn't get to.For though the majority of Roman people were against Christians and killed them in the most brutal fashions, one thing they could not hold against them was "see how they love". You know, I agree and you agree that feeding people to lions for their religious beliefs. Apparently the Romans felt different, but we're not surprised. However, what might surprise you is the number of prominent, early Christian thinkers who repeatedly expressed their desire to be martyred. Knowing the penalties of certain deviations from law, some of these Christians went ahead and violated the law, anxious to effect their martyrdom. Off the top of my head, Origen comes to mind; I recall the holy castrato repeatedly wrote of his desire to be martyred for the glory of God. And of that love ... though I might argue whether it was ever there, for the earliest post-biblical writings seem to lay right into excoriating the Jews in a hateful effort to increase Christian political prestige, I think the more relevant thing to note is how quickly the church abandoned that love upon achieving political power.

I do, however, owe some less-seething consideration. Some genuine consideration, in fact: God bless you for doing so, so that we might have a wake up call and wake up to the GospelFirst, given the mortal effects of God's blessings, I must refuse. But I have always declared that when Christians begin demonstrating the efficacy of their Gospel as relates its headline message, then surely the world will benefit from the Christian presence. It makes me happy indeed to see a Christian make such a declaration. But a sword is a killing weapon; the physician declares, "Do no harm," and of this we might debate much. To the other, a doctor in Tacoma, Washington, was just bombed by parties unknown, with no message, demand, or claim of responsibility. I will not connect abortion to Christianity and violence at this time, but I'm willing to put money on the idea that none of the bombers (there are three "suspects" yet unidentified) are Jewish, Muslim, shamanistic, Wiccan, Buddhist, Hindu, or even Satanic. And I'm willing to bet the justification offered will have little to do with the price of vaccinations or antibiotics. Nobody was killed in this bombing, but it seems only apropos to mention the incident, which has officially come to the state I call home. I went to high school not very far from here, and my Catholic high school once hosted this abortion-performing physician as a speaker in an ethics class I took. I find it sad that the tangible edge of the Sword of the Spirit may have come so close to my home. But I will be pleasantly surprised if this is an act of exceptionally irresponsible vandalism and prank.

Should the authorities deem this bombing to have Christian root, I will remind all on here at Sciforum that this is what we have come to expect of the Christian presence in society. I hope, for all of our sake, that this mode of belief will disappear. I'm not entirely sorry to say that if this means Christianity itself must go away in order to spare the world its fundamentalist consequences, then it would be a human service if all the Christians in this country started shopping around Buddhist temples and weekend reading circles.

But I must disagree: the Sword of Spirit is most definitely a weapon.

--Tiassa :cool:

Sir. Loone

06-13-01, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by pragmathen
Loone,

You are a master spokesman for the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

I can see how God would choose you especially to send forth His word among the nations. Unbelieving heathens everywhere can flock and be destroyed with one fell swoop of your intelligent utterances. The Sword of the Spirit literally cleaves families in twain, raises its bloody self up and is subsequently glorified by your compassionate words. Your knowledge and use of imagery supercedes any dastardly scientist, what with their faked diplomas of accomplishment and their sinister ulterior motives. You see directly through all the funk that mucks the reasoner and the logician. Your simple means of communicating and your simple manner of thinking is no match for either profound theologians of your own faith or average people like myself. But that's okay, because God has chosen you! He chooses the simple things of the Earth, because the non-simple things have seen through his vile plans. What better way to spread the Word of God than through force with the Sword of the Spirit? What better way to convert others than showing that even children (and those that continue to think as children) embrace the Word without even a hint of doubt?

Mr Bin,

When in doubt, continue to dodge questions and histories and facts as you've done in the past. As you will continue to do in the future. You do so because God wills you to do so. He doesn't want you to look; if it doesn't make sense, just put it on the back burner--eventually God will let you know about it. And never mind that mushy matter that floats between your ears--you won't need it! God has no need of anyone with a brain that questions or reasons, so leave yours at home.

As you say, Beware. Beware lest Christianity drags you into the dust along with all of its other adherents. Beware lest the capacity to reason leaves you bereft of conscious thought and empathy towards your fellow human beings. Beware lest you continue in the same tired old paths that your mind is in.

Loon,

You have decidedly tossed your thinking processes out the window somewhere down the line. When was it? Can you clearly identify the period or experience where you started thinking thus? I can for myself, but I think you may be too far gone to remember for you.

Okay, when you respond to this, make sure it's as easily predictable as all the others. Wouldn't want to upset that God that's behind the eye twitches ...

prag

Hello Pragmathen:

I have given a message from the Bible in parts, and as for you seeing the light, ( I doubt you have at this time ) comes under the authority and work of the Holy Spirit's conviction of your soul, and not mine.:rolleyes: I am and others are messengers of the Gospel. Only the Holy Spirit can really change a person's mind on the matter! As we have said, the Sword of the Spirit is not a weapon of carnal warfare, but is of the Spirit. I see you weld your words (sword) like unto 'Zorro', but earthly wisdom is really no match for GOD and His Word, and will ultimately prevail over US all!!
Heavens, Earth, and Hell!
We are not trying to force you are anyone to our Faith, but to make a stand for what is right!
We like science, that's why we are here.
But so many unbelievers are getting 'hostile' to our Faith, [Faith which is more real then you would ever believe in this life] and the Bible says, and the Spirit, has us to stand firm in our Faith! As for me even unto DEATH! I love Jesus, and He loves me no matter how small I am in the Earth.

Live and learn, there is more to life then meets the eyes, Pragmathen. :)

Tiassa

06-13-01, 07:22 PM

It's more then a collection of words, and you will here of this in the coming of eternity! God's will be done, I hope you will soon come to a saving knowledge of the Bible before it's too late ... Jesus saves! My saving knowledge of the Bible: It is important that we archive and save a record of the Bible long after Christians are gone. It is only with the source documentation juxtaposed against the conduct it inspired in its adherents that we shall see the true nature of Christianity. Seriously, Loone, you've failed: you assume that every Christian in the world thinks exactly like you ... funny, I think I accused Tony1 of that lack of empathy toward other people, as well. It seems to be a hallmark of Christian faith. You can talk about pretty metaphor all you want but history demonstrates that your assertion is out of tune. Your lack of concern for the murderous impulses your Christian brethren display will, upon the enactment of such impulses by such ill-inclined people, constitute your complicity and abetting of such a crime against humanity. You will have ignored the least of your Christian brethren, to say the least, in allowing the consumption of that soul by its murderous impulse. You will have hated the least of your human brethren in allowing their destruction for the advancement of your salvation. The sword of the spirit will then, upon the judgement you rely so heavily on, cut you away from the Book forever.

You know, it puzzles me how much a Christian might worry over my salvation, or Emerald's--or, to be more proportionate about it, any infidel soul. Take some time and look at your own, Loone. Both you and Deadwood have attempted to dodge the issue in order to avoid actively endorsing murder as your brother Lawdog has done. But at the same time you cannot, apparently and as a result of doctrine, condemn such murderous declarations because you are afraid of endangering your souls. If this is untrue, step up and advise your violent, hateful brother. If not, we the Witches, as we gather to protect ourselves, will only be able to practically recognize your willingness and bloodlust.

But don't try to dodge the issue by ignoring it: Lawdog's maniacal threat is exactly the "expected" result of your faith. I must admit, you all had me nearly convinced over these last couple of years that such ignorance and hatred was a quirk of my perception. Yet here are three of you: Lawdog who threatens, who endorses murder; Loone, who proudly touts military lingo in the name of love and seeks a fight; and Deadwood's entry into our debate includes not his revulsion felt toward a hate-crime, but rather his sadness that the victim is now farther from the clutches of Jesus Christ. Here we have a Hateful Triune demonstrating the highest of their priorities: the conquest of people by Christian faith.

I mean, sure, I figured there was a high chance that Lawdog was an atheist agent provocateur, but three of you operating concurrently? I think we can fairly conclude the nature of these sentiments: the irony is that people are offended when told that this is what Christianity inspires. You have demonstrated it rather clearly, in my opinion.With GOD all things are posible!Yeah, I guess so: Christian mercy is murderous--how effing paradoxical is that? That's some nice churchin' there, boys.

--Tiassa :cool:

Sir. Loone

06-13-01, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by tiassa
My saving knowledge of the Bible: It is important that we archive and save a record of the Bible long after Christians are gone. It is only with the source documentation juxtaposed against the conduct it inspired in its adherents that we shall see the true nature of Christianity. Seriously, Loone, you've failed: you assume that every Christian in the world thinks exactly like you ... funny, I think I accused Tony1 of that lack of empathy toward other people, as well. It seems to be a hallmark of Christian faith. You can talk about pretty metaphor all you want but history demonstrates that your assertion is out of tune. Your lack of concern for the murderous impulses your Christian brethren display will, upon the enactment of such impulses by such ill-inclined people, constitute your complicity and abetting of such a crime against humanity. You will have ignored the least of your Christian brethren, to say the least, in allowing the consumption of that soul by its murderous impulse. You will have hated the least of your human brethren in allowing their destruction for the advancement of your salvation. The sword of the spirit will then, upon the judgement you rely so heavily on, cut you away from the Book forever.

You know, it puzzles me how much a Christian might worry over my salvation, or Emerald's--or, to be more proportionate about it, any infidel soul. Take some time and look at your own, Loone. Both you and Deadwood have attempted to dodge the issue in order to avoid actively endorsing murder as your brother Lawdog has done. But at the same time you cannot, apparently and as a result of doctrine, condemn such murderous declarations because you are afraid of endangering your souls. If this is untrue, step up and advise your violent, hateful brother. If not, we the Witches, as we gather to protect ourselves, will only be able to practically recognize your willingness and bloodlust.

But don't try to dodge the issue by ignoring it: Lawdog's maniacal threat is exactly the "expected" result of your faith. I must admit, you all had me nearly convinced over these last couple of years that such ignorance and hatred was a quirk of my perception. Yet here are three of you: Lawdog who threatens, who endorses murder; Loone, who proudly touts military lingo in the name of love and seeks a fight; and Deadwood's entry into our debate includes not his revulsion felt toward a hate-crime, but rather his sadness that the victim is now farther from the clutches of Jesus Christ. Here we have a Hateful Triune demonstrating the highest of their priorities: the conquest of people by Christian faith.

I mean, sure, I figured there was a high chance that Lawdog was an atheist agent provocateur, but three of you operating concurrently? I think we can fairly conclude the nature of these sentiments: the irony is that people are offended when told that this is what Christianity inspires. You have demonstrated it rather clearly, in my opinion.Yeah, I guess so: Christian mercy is murderous--how effing paradoxical is that? That's some nice churchin' there, boys.

--Tiassa :cool:

Hi Tiassa!:

You have not the Spirit of God in you so you have no true understanding of Christianity. Did you know there's such a thing as the spirit of the Anti-Christ? And that in your carnal nature is the 'spirit' of the Anti-Christ! We Christians wrestle not against 'flesh and blood' but against spiritual forces (evil) .

And that we are messengers of the Gospel of Peace, and the Holy Spirit is the one that deals with your heart, God Himself shell fight our battles! Your not just contesting with men, but GOD, and you who apposes the truth, have already lost 2000 years ago! Well also eternity past and future if ye not come unto Jesus for forgiveness of sins! No matter what you are anyone would say or do out side of Christ, you already have lost most miserably! Jesus is the one and only hope for the lost!:)

Get real! None of you are any match for God!

Don't let the Devil destroy you, in your arrogance! Jesus can still save the wayward soul!

Sir. Loone

06-13-01, 08:46 PM

Most of the atheist post about Christians and the church are 'untruths', and they shell give in an account of there sins of hate against something they don't understand.

Well the time of the heathen shall come to an end. And Jesus will come and there will be no more hatred on Earth! Amen!

Behave your selves!
And let's enjoy life in common since fashion!
God is the victor, ye are lost souls in need of a loving saviour, Jesus!
:)

Emerald

06-13-01, 08:57 PM

Sir. Loone,

Originally posted by Sir. Loone
And that we are messengers of the Gospel of Peace, and the Holy Spirit is the one that deals with your heart, God Himself shell fight our battles! Your not just contesting with men, but GOD, and you who apposes the truth, have already lost 2000 years ago! Well also eternity past and future if ye not come unto Jesus for forgiveness of sins! No matter what you are anyone would say or do out side of Christ, you already have lost most miserably! Jesus is the one and only hope for the lost!:)

What tripe! Your savior promised his audience that he would return before some of them died - that was nearly 2000 years ago! Guess what? Your savior is a no-show. What kind of truth is that? Give it up already, Linus. The Great Pumpkin isn't coming. I'd say we won by default.

Emerald

Rambler

06-13-01, 11:24 PM

Sir Loone:

Mate I feel sorry for you. You should really take a step back and try to see these arguments from the perspective of a 3rd person...seriously do yourself a BIG favour and forget you are christain for a few hours, then go back through the threads here and take the arguments on their merits (keeping in mind that you don't already believe Jesus is real). Would the arguments presented by christains convince you to become christain, i.e. only because they insist they are right but can't actualy back up what they are saying as truth. Also would you still be convinced that the impact christanity has had on society was positive (without ignoring the millions of lives that have been destroyed in the name of your god). I would think that any person with a sound ability to think would have to say no actualy this religion is only a political tool which has had a predominantly evil role in society. I assure you if you can do what I have suggested you will realise that your belief system is based on FEAR and not Love.

P.S. I know you believe that God will be upset with you if you forget being christain for a while but if he can forgive McVeigh for what he did than I'm sure you'll be able to make it up to him too.

Deadwood

06-14-01, 07:04 AM

Tiassa, I have a request for you. Could you please please please tell me where I've condoned any sought of Christian violence? I am a pacifist. Only ever been in a fight once, 5 or 6 years ago. I've almost been in others, to help friends, but God has always delivered me and bought peace. One time is what I would call a miracle. Christians are taught passive resistance. Martin Luther King used this, he had a great love for his and our Saviour.

I don't actually know any people who have committed murder. I have a friend who knows someone who has, but I don't know him and have never met him. So I don't think I could have helped that least of my brethren. The Christians that I know seem to be a different breed to the ones that you know. I don't condone any bombings of abortion clinics either. If that Christian(s) really wanted to show their love for Christ they would have gone into the clinic and preached the Gospel as we are commissioned to do. What we are not commissioned to do is to break the commandments set forth by God to Moses. If a Christian commits murder or is even contemplating it, they should be approached by the elders of the church.

I hope this verse helps.
1John 3:15

"Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."

I should also go more indepth into the Sword of the Spirit(the word of God). The sword of the Spirit is a double edged sword. A double edged sword back then was the most powerful to my knowledge.

From that, we know that the word of God is powerful.

the sword of the Spirit also gives life(Salvation).

The Earthly sword brings death. Just as living as a slave to the flesh, or as a slave to sin is another way of referring to.

But we know that the sword of the Spirit brings life. you will find that when someone is a born again Christian there life is turned around 180 degrees. So we are dead to sin and alive in Christ.

Ephesians ch6 vs 10-24

10
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
14
Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
15
and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
16
In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
19
Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,
20
for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
21
Tychicus, the dear brother and faithful servant in the Lord, will tell you everything, so that you also may know how I am and what I am doing.
22
I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are, and that he may encourage you.
23
Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
24
Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.

Hebrew 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Another thing that I might add. It is true that early Christians did want to be martyred. Yes, it is a great honour. However, the Popes used to always be martyred just so they could bring honour to themselves. If you are martyred to bring honour to yourself then that is an ulterior motive, that defeats the purpose all together. I've known different people in my life who have risked being put to death because they are Christian, but they never risked it so that they may receive glory, they did it because of their faith in God. I myself would die, before denying the Lord Jesus Christ. Our minister even prayed that we would believe even unto death. Before he did pray before the congregation, he said that he didn't care what other people thought of him praying this. Our minister has even risked going to jail before. It is all for the glory of God. Not for ourselves.

Also, I didn't read where Lawdog said that Christians should kill. Was this in God is scientifically real. No Christian reserves the right to kill. The commandments still stand.

Thanks.

pragmathen

06-14-01, 04:13 PM

<blockquote>
quote:
<hr>
Originally posted by Deadwood
I myself would die, before denying the Lord Jesus Christ. Our minister even prayed that we would believe even unto death. Before he did pray before the congregation, he said that he didn't care what other people thought of him praying this. Our minister has even risked going to jail before. It is all for the glory of God. Not for ourselves.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Standing up for what you believe is a good thing, I think. It's great that you don't want to back down in the face of adversity, as it applies directly to you.

However, I must ask. Let's turn the situation around a bit. You've said that you wouldn't deny the Lord Jesus Christ and would rather die. Okay. But, would you be willing to put to death someone that refused to accept the Lord Jesus Christ? Unfortunately this is a loaded question. If you answer no, then you must also realize that when Christ returns, this is one of the items on his agenda. If you say yes, then you must realize why Christianity is seen as ultimately destructive.

<blockquote>
quote:
<hr>
Also, I didn't read where Lawdog said that Christians should kill. Was this in God is scientifically real. No Christian reserves the right to kill. The commandments still stand.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Lawdog was enlightening all with his inspirational commentary about witchcraft and the consequences of those that practice it. Lawdog being the master mythographer and all.

As to the right to kill ... Perhaps you haven't read too much about the Crusades, or delved into the history of slavery, or on the subjugation of women, or on the impossible standards of perfection required by an imperfect God? Unfortunately there are many ways to kill--not all of them focus on killing the body. Christianity has done a really splendid job of killing the mind, reasoning, scepticism, and indifference to other people's ways of living.

Tiassa

06-14-01, 04:24 PM

Could you please please please tell me where I've condoned any sought of Christian violence?It is this current thread.

I have addressed what I consider to be violent, militaristic metaphors that, when permeated with the authority of God, create exceptional potential for human damage. Sir Loone, a perpetrator of these military metaphors, disagrees based upon what appears to be one of two possible primary assumptions:

* That all Christians regard such metaphors the same, or:
* That Loone considers himself to be the sole possessor of the truth of God

In this sense, I tend toward the former. It is my experience that Loone would already have declared himself the sole possessor of truth were he to believe that. (There was, of course, Tony1, whom we haven't heard much from recently, who would never declare himself the sole possessor of truth, but who treated his fellow posters--Christian or otherwise--as if he was.

When I called Loone on his metaphors, he offered the lame defense that he means something else. He has not addressed well the issue raised, nor the evidence supporting my assertions to be found in Lawdog's offensive behavior.

In light of Lawdog's posts, excerpts of which I presented as related to my objections toward the militant "love" of Christianity, Loone resorted to empty preaching.

And here, Deadwood, you enter the fray: Some eight hours after I cite Lawdog's hateful tantrum, you respond with an answer that was anemic at best the first time Loone offered it:the sword of the Spirit is the word of God. We do not wield such a weapon, a double edged sword, to bring death but life through the blood of our blessed Saviour Jesus Christ. The sword of the Spirit brings life. The sword of flesh brings death, sin and destruction. It seems to me that you're skipping the relevant issue that Christian militarism has brought about threats of cultural extinction on behalf of the Glory of God. It seems to me that what was most important to you in that paragraph was to ignore what reality we just witnessed at our beloved Sciforums in order to continue the justification that other people just don't understand. I had, at this point, explained to Loone what was wrong with this concept. You seem to be restating the obviously faith-based assertion that people don't see what they see, and don't perceive what they perceive unless they believe that Jesus is their savior.

And yet you go on to address violence. As I recall, your greatest concern is not human conflict, but that a soul is straying farther from the grasp of your god's dominion:Now he holds a grudge against Christ. Though in his religion he is the second highest prophet to Mohummad. It really saddens me.It's a nice set of political priorities that allow you to mask complex human concerns behind a simplified shell of empty justifications. And you do go on, indeed: Our Lord, would not sanction such a thing. Only when they repent will they be accepted. A few points:

* Your Lord has sanctioned this kind of behavior for centuries; all evidence indicates that unless he does sanction that kind of behavior, that Heaven is empty. This kind of behavior is central to the establishment of Christian faith and religion. It is the history of Christianity on earth, and there's no way around that.

* They need to confess to God and tell God they're sorry in order to be saved? Big effing deal! It's a lot harder to look someone in the eye when you can sit alone and whisper that you might have been wrong when there's nobody around to hear.

* Its amazing how focused on salvation a Christian can be that they won't give a rat's behind about things like murder.I do understand your sentiments at the crusade and the inquisition. Don't think for one moment that I would put that on to anyone because they refused to believe. On the other hand, it's not a particularly compelling idea, apparently, to stand up for what's right. Are you Thomas Hobbes? Do you believe that the people Lawdog has threatened deserve that treatment? Why do you accept Christian preaching that you find defamatory to God's message and mission? I mean, I love this:Remember, forgiveness is a huge part of Christianity. We are in need of forgiveness as well. even if it is on the part of non Christians who thought they were doing the will of God and were full of hate, and not love.And here you go putting blame on the infidels again. How stereotypical can you behave? Should we test-drive it? I quote Mayor Joe "Diamond" Quimby: "That was unexpected."

Your resorting to party-line assertions that are nullified in their current aspect, your focus on salvation, and your willingness to place the burden of this militarism onto non-Christians is disconcerting.

Your silence alone is not an indicator of complicity. But I think your calculated evasion of the fact that people are threatening cultural extinction for the glory of your angry, jealous God does much to reinforce the case.

Address the issue for once; don't fulfill as many negative stereotypes of your faith as you can. My jaw is dropped for a number of reasons: Lawdog's oubursts, and also at the incredulous indifference shown by his fellow Christians.

This is your God and your faith which has been represented. You have responded to these awful representations with indifference at best, arrogance at worst.

I am compelled to add that there are few, if any Witches, who would be surprised by this course of events. We've known this about Christianity for years, and we're running out of ideas of what to do about it. For centuries has your faith pressed angrily forward, and still it presses. Be part of the solution, for once.

--Tiassa :cool:

Deadwood

06-15-01, 09:46 AM

Tiassa, I'm really sorry for not being blunt. I didn't mean to, nor had any intention to. It's my fault. I thought my posts contained more information on my views than what there actually was. I was not trying to ignore the issue or anything, I'm just stupid, its a genetic thing :).

Perhaps if I quote what you say it will make it easier to make my points clear. P.S. This is for my sake. If I do forget anything could you please tell me. I went over my two past posts and they weren't very direct at all. I have been trying not to use quotes lately because sometimes they can be misused. I thought if I just gave my thoughts that that would be better, guess not.

OK I'll try my best. :)

I have addressed what I consider to be violent, militaristic metaphors that, when permeated with the authority of God, create exceptional potential for human damage. Sir Loone, a perpetrator of these military metaphors, disagrees based upon what appears to be one of two possible primary assumptions:

* That all Christians regard such metaphors the same, or:
* That Loone considers himself to be the sole possessor of the truth of God

Perhaps I could go into more depth into the background where the metaphor was written, ie how it originated.

St Paul wrote the metaphor to the church in Ephesus. When he wrote the Ephesians and this metaphor, he was in chains, guarded by a Roman Soldier. So looking at the armor of this Roman soldier he compared all of the arpature of him to that of standing firm in the faith. Like helmet, shield, sword etc. Basically putting in human terms like going out to battle what the Christian is equipped with. We do battle not against flesh and blood but against the principalities of this Earth.

Ephesians ch 6 vs 10 to 13

10
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

I must state that all of this leads to life. :) Our conflict is against the supernatural. Christians are called to this fight. We must fight the principalities of evil, the demons who's will is to bring suffering, and they have.

It seems to me that you're skipping the relevant issue that Christian militarism has brought about threats of cultural extinction on behalf of the Glory of God. It seems to me that what was most important to you in that paragraph was to ignore what reality we just witnessed at our beloved Sciforums in order to continue the justification that other people just don't understand. I had, at this point, explained to Loone what was wrong with this concept. You seem to be restating the obviously faith-based assertion that people don't see what they see, and don't perceive what they perceive unless they believe that Jesus is their savior.

By cultural extinction, do you mean taking up arms such as guns, to destroy cultures. If so, then that has no part in Christianity. There is no teaching to support Christians doing that.

If you mean by preaching the Gospel, I see no problem with that. If you are to be saved, Christ is the only acceptable sacrifice. No other sacrifice will be accepted for atonement of sins. This is why Christians hold that this is the only way to be saved. No other path can lead to salvation, but believeing in the Messiah you will be justified.

Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Galatians 2:17

"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!

And yet you go on to address violence. As I recall, your greatest concern is not human conflict, but that a soul is straying farther from the grasp of your god's dominion:

I hope that I would be able to think that my main concern in life is the salvation of others. However, this does not mean I don't feel anything towards my friend being bashed. I'm not that insensitive. I thought I expressed my sorrow. as a side note I should probably tell you that I'm not a very emotional person, who finds it hard to express feelings, so please be happy with what I said. I keep everything inside. Please don't argue with that, its just the way I am and have been brought up, thank-you.

And yet you go on to address violence. As I recall, your greatest concern is not human conflict, but that a soul is straying farther from the grasp of your god's dominion:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now he holds a grudge against Christ. Though in his religion he is the second highest prophet to Mohummad. It really saddens me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a nice set of political priorities that allow you to mask complex human concerns behind a simplified shell of empty justifications. And you do go on, indeed:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our Lord, would not sanction such a thing. Only when they repent will they be accepted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few points:

* Your Lord has sanctioned this kind of behavior for centuries; all evidence indicates that unless he does sanction that kind of behavior, that Heaven is empty. This kind of behavior is central to the establishment of Christian faith and religion. It is the history of Christianity on earth, and there's no way around that.

* They need to confess to God and tell God they're sorry in order to be saved? Big effing deal! It's a lot harder to look someone in the eye when you can sit alone and whisper that you might have been wrong when there's nobody around to hear.

* Its amazing how focused on salvation a Christian can be that they won't give a rat's behind about things like murder.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do understand your sentiments at the crusade and the inquisition. Don't think for one moment that I would put that on to anyone because they refused to believe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand, it's not a particularly compelling idea, apparently, to stand up for what's right. Are you Thomas Hobbes? Do you believe that the people Lawdog has threatened deserve that treatment? Why do you accept Christian preaching that you find defamatory to God's message and mission? I mean, I love this:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember, forgiveness is a huge part of Christianity. We are in need of forgiveness as well. even if it is on the part of non Christians who thought they were doing the will of God and were full of hate, and not love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here you go putting blame on the infidels again. How stereotypical can you behave? Should we test-drive it? I quote Mayor Joe "Diamond" Quimby: "That was unexpected."

Your resorting to party-line assertions that are nullified in their current aspect, your focus on salvation, and your willingness to place the burden of this militarism onto non-Christians is disconcerting.

--->End of quote^
l
One thing of note is when I was referring to non-Christians, I was not referring to those who say that they don't believe in Christ. I was referring to the ones who do, but are not genuine, you can not see it in their lives. Someone who is truly saved will not go around killing, simple as that, unless they are in the Army and so forth defending their country and right to freedom of course. Lets not get petty in this debate.

I stated in an earlier post that there will be a 180 degree turn in their life. They will be dead to sin and alive in Christ. I was referring to those Christians who say they believe in Christ as Lord and Saviour, but there is no evidence shown in their life. I was not looking for a scape goat as it may have seemed. Therefore, Christianity was not to blame, its people who claim to be Christian but aren't genuine, they have no application of the teachings in their life. Good works flow from faith.

The same holds true for Islam. a lot of wives husbands bash and mutilate their wives and claim to be Muslim. This certainly detracts from their faith. but really in Islam, womon should be treated with high respect, as in Christianity.

Your silence alone is not an indicator of complicity. But I think your calculated evasion of the fact that people are threatening cultural extinction for the glory of your angry, jealous God does much to reinforce the case.

Again I am sorry. It was not calculated and not an evasion. Just proof that I'm human and still make mistakes.

Address the issue for once; don't fulfill as many negative stereotypes of your faith as you can. My jaw is dropped for a number of reasons: Lawdog's oubursts, and also at the incredulous indifference shown by his fellow Christians.

Again I did not mean to show indifference. I did say that Christians are still not allowed to kill and that if any Christian justifies killing then they should be approached by the elders of the church. I don't think that was showing indifference, I thought that that was rebuking any notion that it is OK for Christians to kill. I think that instead of killing witches, we should formerly preach the Gospel to them so that they have a chance to repent and put their trust in Jesus so that they may be saved.

This is your God and your faith which has been represented. You have responded to these awful representations with indifference at best, arrogance at worst.

Again I did not mean to show indifference as stated above.

I am compelled to add that there are few, if any Witches, who would be surprised by this course of events. We've known this about Christianity for years, and we're running out of ideas of what to do about it. For centuries has your faith pressed angrily forward, and still it presses. Be part of the solution, for once.

I agree there has been a lot of undoings in the church (can not think of a stronger word for undoings). However, a lot of good has also come out of Christianity. Many lives have been saved. There have been many charities which help the sick, poor and misfortunate. In the last half century we have seen great changes in the church, which all started at the Reformation, when saved by grace was re-realised. I am a changed person because of Christianity for the better. I have no tendencies to go out killing. Yes, I still get angry and stuff, but I handle ager much better. The process of sanctification will always continue in me until I am glorified at Christs second coming (side note: I do not feel pride at being glorified in my heavenly, eternal body, but joyful, I do not look down on non-believers as you think I might for if I did, I would be always calling you names and saying how stupid you are, I consider myself blessed that I may be saved by faith only so that no one may boast, my rightousness does not come from self, but that which is in Christ. PRAISE BE TO GOD!!!).

Standing up for what you believe is a good thing, I think. It's great that you don't want to back down in the face of adversity, as it applies directly to you.

However, I must ask. Let's turn the situation around a bit. You've said that you wouldn't deny the Lord Jesus Christ and would rather die. Okay. But, would you be willing to put to death someone that refused to accept the Lord Jesus Christ? Unfortunately this is a loaded question. If you answer no, then you must also realize that when Christ returns, this is one of the items on his agenda. If you say yes, then you must realize why Christianity is seen as ultimately destructive.

To put it simply, I wouldn't not put to death someone who did not believe.

Those who have refused to believe or who have a knowledge and put it off until too late are responsible for their own actions. They were in need of an acceptable sacrifice to atone for their sins. Only Jesus Christ fulfils all that is needed. This is how He fulfilled the law and the prophecies in the old testament concerning Him. Some are still yet to be fulfilled, but they will be in time. I also agree that God does have high standards, in fact He demands perfection, He also gave us a chance by sending His only begotten Son to die and atone for the sins of whoever believes. Remember, he first came to us, not to condemn but to save. He will accept you if you genuinely believe in Him as your Lord and Saviour, just ask Him. Christ's first coming made way for mankind to be saved. However, you personally must believe. I can not threaten or force you to, it is your choice. That is free will. You have the free will to sin. You chose to. Now you have the free will to come to God and atone for your sins, past, present and future. Repent of your sins, turn away from them. Believe in Christ Jesus. Join a suitable church. That a)loves sound doctrine b)enjoys praise and worship c)loves fellowship and builds you up into a mature Christian. If you want to become a Christian, just message me, I will do my best to help you. You will also be my first convert. But all the glory goes to God for it is Him who works in, through and out of me. PRAISE BE TO GOD!!!

John ch 3 vs 16-18

16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Thanks :)

pragmathen

06-15-01, 11:47 AM

Thanks so much for the response, Deadwood. Seriously.:)

Just so you know, I'm not being petty but you wrote:
<blockquote>
quote:
<hr>
Originally posted by Deadwood:
To put it simply, I wouldn't not put to death someone who did not believe.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Would I be wrong in assuming that double negative up there was unintentional? So, would the revised quote look something like this?
<blockquote>
Revised quote:
<hr>
To put it simply, I would not put to death someone who did not believe.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Sorry, but I will not be your first convert. Contrary to what Sir. Loone may think, I was once involved (quite devotedly) in the Christian way of life. I didn't like how it tried to make me intolerant of others' views and lifestyles, though. That and other things let me decide to leave that way of life.

Suffice to say, thanks again for replying!

prag

Sir. Loone

06-15-01, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by pragmathen
Thanks so much for the response, Deadwood. Seriously.:)

Just so you know, I'm not being petty but you wrote:
<blockquote>
quote:
<hr>
Originally posted by Deadwood:
To put it simply, I wouldn't not put to death someone who did not believe.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Would I be wrong in assuming that double negative up there was unintentional? So, would the revised quote look something like this?
<blockquote>
Revised quote:
<hr>
To put it simply, I would not put to death someone who did not believe.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Sorry, but I will not be your first convert. Contrary to what Sir. Loone may think, I was once involved (quite devotedly) in the Christian way of life. I didn't like how it tried to make me intolerant of others' views and lifestyles, though. That and other things let me decide to leave that way of life.

Suffice to say, thanks again for replying!

prag

Hello Pragmathen, I have a few converts elseware, but that credit goes' totally to the Holy Spirit, it is His work to convert and we just give the message of Salvation.

Will get back with you later, have to get going ,work, work, work.:eek: :)

Tiassa

06-16-01, 07:59 PM

Deadwood--

I thank you for the effort of your reply. It does, indeed, seem that there is a communication gulf.St Paul wrote the metaphor to the church in Ephesus. When he wrote the Ephesians and this metaphor, he was in chains, guarded by a Roman Soldier. So looking at the armor of this Roman soldier he compared all of the arpature of him to that of standing firm in the faith. Like helmet, shield, sword etc. Basically putting in human terms like going out to battle what the Christian is equipped with. We do battle not against flesh and blood but against the principalities of this Earth. I would offer that metaphor is a working part of my life; with ambitions for art, I find representational concepts of dominant vitality. I well understand what you're saying here; I understand that the metaphor does not necessarily describe flesh-and-blood persecutions. Yet what Christians fail to address centrally is what these metaphors do. Yes we know that such expressions as Lawdog's are of deviant sharpness, but much as the ideas of the Inquisitions live today in muted, angry incarnations, so too do the underlying factors inspiring Lawdog's hateful declarations infect the Christian psychology in angry, muted incarnations.

Thoughts do not remain faithfully in their original vein; start with something objective like a Mandelbrot. Everyone I know thinks the graph result looks familiar, but nobody knows from where. So in philosophical discussions, they sometimes exploit as best they can a relative concept to the Mandelbrot's seeming perpetuity. It provides a link to pi, which also seems neverending. What individuals do with these mathematical concepts can have stunning effects on their philosophical concepts. Such is true of the metaphors of any religion. Does it not strike you odd that the Witches have, by and large, left the violent metaphors of the Druidic past behind? It serves the Witches none to carry on that violence justified by perceived necessity. The world around us generally does not, and should not present that necessity. The more time we spend trying to figure out how to match Christianity metaphorical blow for metaphorical blow, the worse it is for Witches, Christians, and the people who have to put up with it. Given Christianity's mandate to be correct and infallible in its source and inspiration, we have seen throughout the centuries a tendency of the faithful to draw this spiritual sword into the world of the flesh.

We, the human race, need none of this balderdash. It is counterproductive and threatens our ability to adapt and evolve. This transmutation of a spiritual concept into that of flesh is the result of Christianity's targeting the lesser-educated for conversion; it seems that the only purpose of the mystery of God has something to do with the question, Will I be saved? Such greed inspires much infamy, and the ideas of that infamy still plague us today.

For instance, your citation of Ephesians 6. In verse 11, the Bible instructs to put on the armor to stand against the devil's schemes. Throughout history, this has been included in the justifications offered for the "purging" of the "agents" of these "devil's schemes". (e.g.--Inquisition, Crusaded; the bleeding Christian pride in Song of Roland is an incredible testament to Christian hatred, especially when placed in context of the history the poem describes.)

The seeds of this hatred run at least to the Apostolic Fathers, and posters here have noted that even Jesus behaved with this elitist tendencies, going so far as to destroy a farmer's stock in order to prove his point.I must state that all of this leads to life. Our conflict is against the supernatural. Christians are called to this fight. We must fight the principalities of evil, the demons who's will is to bring suffering, and they have. I believe history indicates otherwise. Even into the twentieth century; even until today; even in the allegedly enlightened US we still see the influence of the worst parts of Christianity, which are the same parts history has always witnessed for lack of much else. An excerpt from Emma Goldman's Anarchism: What it Really Stands For (1917)A thorough perusal of the history of human development will disclose two elements in bitter conflict with each other; elements that are only now beginning to be understood, not as foreign to each other, but as closely related and truly harmonious, if only placed in proper environment: the individual and social instincts. The individual and society have waged a relentless and bloody battle for ages, each striving for supremacy, because each was blind to the value and importance of the other. The individual and social instincts,--the one a most potent factor for individual endeavor, for growth, aspiration, self-realization; the other an equally potent factor for mutual helpfulness and social well-being.

The explanation of the storm raging within the individual, and between him and his surroundings, is not far to seek. The primitive man, unable to understand his being, much less the unity of all life, felt himself absolutely dependent on blind, hidden forces ever ready to mock and taunt him. Out of that attitude grew the religious concepts of man as a mere speck of dust dependent on superior powers on high, who can only be appeased by complete surrender. All the early sagas rest on that idea, which continues to be the Leitmotiv of the biblical tales dealing with the relation of man to God, to the State, to society. Again and again the same motif, man is nothing, the powers are everything. Thus Jehovah would only endure man on condition of complete surrender. Man can have all the glories of the earth, but he must not become conscious of himself. The State, society, and moral laws all sing the same refrain: Man can have all the glories of the earth, but he must not become conscious of himself.And, of course, understanding that Ms Goldman was promoting a social idea, we see her comparison of values in relation to that idea:Religion, the dominion of the human mind; Property, the dominion of human needs; and Government, the dominion of human conduct, represent the stronghold of man's enslavement and all the horrors it entails. Religion! How it dominates man's mind, how it humiliates and degrades his soul. God is everything, man is nothing, says religion. But out of that nothing God has created a kingdom so despotic, so tyrannical, so cruel, so terribly exacting that naught but gloom and tears and blood have ruled the world since gods began. Anarchism rouses man to rebellion against this black monster. Break your mental fetters, says Anarchism to man, for not until you think and judge for yourself will you get rid of the dominion of darkness, the greatest obstacle to all progress.
* http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/anarchism.html

History tells the results of such ideas as militaristic "spiritual" metaphors. The effects of such religion are obvious to a good many people. The only reason we can understand what you're saying about the metaphors is because yes, there is the literary evidence for the interpretation you provide. However, what such assertions as your interpretation fail to consider is the working, living, active result of those ideas, far from the idea.By cultural extinction, do you mean taking up arms such as guns, to destroy cultures. If so, then that has no part in Christianity. There is no teaching to support Christians doing that. Well, there's the part in the OT about the Amelekites. There's the Flood story where God does his own dirty work. The passover. And the Revelation, I suppose, qualifies too, but I'm one who generally finds little there but politics and metaphor, so I'm willing to leave it out, too. Didn't one of the Kings (perhaps David) raze every non-Jewish temple and altar in the old Kingdoms?

In the meantime, though, I appreciate what you're after. I agree that such violence is not the Christianity I was taught; someone needs to tell Lawdog that, loudly and immediately.

And perhaps that's the point of why I'm digging in so hard: It seems that the Dog's fellow Christian posters would rather do anything but correct him publicly to his virtual face. They'll note that such violence has no place, but only to justify the continuation of the larger faith. They'll explain that people are perceiving metaphors wrong, yet Lawdog shows the result of the interpretations those wrong people worry about. And I had really hoped to see a Christian stand up and tell Lawdog that he's wrong: I think many people would like to see two Christians in disagreement actually work out a difference of interpretation to a conclusive point; such a feat has never been witnessed in my lifetime. (That's why I'm so impressed with the WARC conference I post from time to time, and yet I get little commentary from Christians, except for deflections of and excuses for perceived problems.)

Alas, this post expires that time; I do not accept for my satisfaction what must be prompted when I think "right" is so damnably obvious. I had hoped, before the discussion reached this point, that Lawdog would find stern rebuke among his community: I conclude from the lack of such rebuke that Christians generally approve of his ideas on some untold level, or to some unmeasured degree. Christians are too scared of being seen as defending infidel propriety that they will allow threats of atrocity and--as history demonstrates--atrocity itself as long as they don't have to suffer the discomfort of correcting another Christian. Unless, of course, you're part of that silly Catholic-Protestant thing in Ireland that so reinforces our faith in either form of Christianity.If you mean by preaching the Gospel, I see no problem with that. If you are to be saved, Christ is the only acceptable sacrifice. No other sacrifice will be accepted for atonement of sins. This is why Christians hold that this is the only way to be saved. No other path can lead to salvation, but believeing in the Messiah you will be justified. As I read past the thick faith-layer there, I might agree that preaching the Gospel is just fine. Two dares: Preach it honestly (something I rarely witness), and preach it for some better goal than personal salvation (which I never witness). Greedy preaching creates opportunities for sins in the form of Lawdog's hate; what would one answer God when presented with the notion that one inspired such sin? These days, preaching the Gospel seems to go hand in hand with the superlative morality assumption that seems so integrally related to Christian hatred of the world.

Of your Mark, Hebrews, and Galatians posts: thank you for devoting so much to the consideration of personal salvation, and reducing the scope of Christianity to something you do for a reward. That quote from Galatians is especially hilarious. I would like to include the next verse, 2.18: For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. Like I said once: Heaven seems to be empty. Few people blame Christ for anything but being part of a "perfect" message that has created so much hatred and sin. But it was a nice faith declaration. Unfortunately, Christian faith seems to have little care for reality.I hope that I would be able to think that my main concern in life is the salvation of others.It was your primary concern. What should I think? That you're deceiving me with your very words? Of course, that, too, is something which I accuse the faith of creating in people.One thing of note is when I was referring to non-Christians, I was not referring to those who say that they don't believe in Christ. I was referring to the ones who do, but are not genuine, you can not see it in their lives. That's fine with me. But those to whom you refer still draw their ideas from the Bible; the perfect message of God's truth creates this in them. One cannot say that they are deceived by the Devil, here, either, for the Devil is God's instrument, as evidenced both by Job, and also by the inability of any Christian theology to create any scenario justifying the presence of the Devil except as God's holy agent. (Note, this last idea generally didn't stick around long, nor did the living bodies that believed it. History shows that they became dead bodies quickly.) Someone who is truly saved will not go around killing, simple as that, unless they are in the Army and so forth defending their country and right to freedom of course. Lets not get petty in this debate. A) Heaven is empty, then.
B) Armies do not justify killing.
C) I did not realize that the murderous effects of Christian faith were petty. For this last part, I apologize profusely.I was referring to those Christians who say they believe in Christ as Lord and Saviour, but there is no evidence shown in their life. Do you realize that's most of y'all? When the "extreme" ones are pushing wrongly against society, where the hell are all of you? Quite obviously, hiding in your rooms, hoping they win.Therefore, Christianity was not to blame, its people who claim to be Christian but aren't genuine, they have no application of the teachings in their life. Good works flow from faith. So it wasn't Hitler, per se, but the people who agreed with him? In that sense I'll even concede the point, for there is much debate today about those who helped the Jews in Germany, whether they should, why they did, and whether they should have started earlier. It's a mess, I admit. But I think that pretty much reflects the state of any community witnessing persecution. The Christian community in general seems to ignore these allegedly minority elements of violence until called upon to answer for them. Like I said when I called Loone and your responses lazy: clean up the Christian house and don't take it out on us. Until that happens, Christianity is a source of sin and destruction.The same holds true for Islam. a lot of wives husbands bash and mutilate their wives and claim to be Muslim. This certainly detracts from their faith. but really in Islam, womon should be treated with high respect, as in Christianity. Once again we find an establishing of Christian virtue at the exploitation of other culture's difficulties. And women are not treated with high respect in Christianity. That is laughable except for the fact that misogyny is officially on the list of things that I have no obligation to tolerate. Of course, for all of you born into sin, it seems that you're supposed to blame the woman. The result of Genesis has been tragic for women, and if you have to resort to Islamic comparisons to make yourself feel better about Christian treatment of women .... Well?It was not calculated and not an evasion. Just proof that I'm human and still make mistakes.And you revel in the mistakes of the past; these issues shouldn't be present in our lifetime, yet they are. It seems that one must work rather hard to find a way to offer such a soft opinion of threats of cultural extinction. Calculated indeed. And to generally ignore the primary issue? The result of dangerous military metaphors? Definitely an evasion. I did say that Christians are still not allowed to kill and that if any Christian justifies killing then they should be approached by the elders of the church. It's a nice Christmas wish, I admit.ed to kill and that if any Christian justifies killing then they should be approached by the elders of the church. I don't think that was showing indifference, I thought that that was rebuking any notion that it is OK for Christians to kill. Okay, here is the statement that I objected to, which has brought us to this particular point in the present debate: Remember, forgiveness is a huge part of Christianity. We are in need of forgiveness as well. even if it is on the part of non Christians who thought they were doing the will of God and were full of hate, and not love. (Deadwood, 6/12) You were advising me