Extraterrestrials: Why would they come, and what would they be like?

[BetweenThePoints]

Why would an extraterrestrial civilization come here, what would they be like, and most importantly, would they be hostile? If so, what would we do, and how would we do it? How far ahead of us would they be?

[BetweenThePoints]

There are several different scenarios that I have thought of assuming that these beings were hostile.
One- They are slightly ahead of us, just enough to be able to come here. They think like us, they are very similar. In fact, they are very close to us technologically when they arrive. They are bent on conquest by their nature and have decided that we are a juicy target.
Two- They usually aren't hostile, but have decided that we may be a threat sometime in the near future. We must be destroyed.
And finally, Three- They are thousands, millions, or billions of years ahead of us technologically, and have either used up all of the rescources on their planet and any other planets that they have been to, and now they are coming to Earth in order to harvest our rescources, or, they simple think that they should be the only other intelligent life in the universe. We aren't much of a threat to them, but we need to be eliminated in order to fulfill their goal, whatever that might be. We're screwed at this point.

[eburacum45]

You can only speculate so far; one way is to speculate about what humans would do if and when we discover an alien world during our exploration of the Galaxy; would we respect them, or try to exploit them, or just try to change them to be like us.

Probably all three.

Then you have to realise that intelligent aliens are likely to be very, very different to us; they might be intelligent snails, or intelligent trees, or lobsters, or bacteria, or robots, or gigantic living spaceships; they might have one mind between them, or be individuals like us, or have several identities in each body;
they might be virtual entities living inside computer simulations.

Whatever they are, it is very very very very unlikely that they resemble humans physically or mentally.
Here are some of our aliens to be going on with (http://www.orionsarm.com/xenos/index.html).

[bigjnorman]

It has taken us roughly 250 million years to develop from micro-organisms into humans.

consider how far humans have come in the past.....say 4000 years, from living in caves chasing elephants off cliffs with torches to mapping the entire human genome.

Now consider how much we have accomplished from 4000BC until aruond 1500 AD and compare that to how far we have come in the past 500 years (1500-2003). the past 500 years has seen an explosion in technology and advancements unlike nothing in the previous 1500.

Now consider how long the universe has been capable of producing life (this is a wild piss in the wind, but i'll say 10 billion).


Point:
If we are to find (or be found by) other life forms, the odds are that they will either be still extremely simple little things still under development OR, they will be inconceivably advanced.

would an advanced race be hostile to us?
They would probably not even consider what we want any more than you would go out of your way to make sure you didn't step on any insects when you walk around outside.

[BetweenThePoints]

Originally posted by bigjnorman

They would probably not even consider what we want any more than you would go out of your way to make sure you didn't step on any insects when you walk around outside.

I don't think that is necessarily true. I'm assuming, and tell me if I'm wrong, that you think that life is very rare in the universe, and if this is true, then any super advanced race would realize that we, along with them, are very unique, and I think that, If they weren't hostile, and they didn't believe us to be a threat, they would still be interested in us immensely, if only for the pure pursuit of knowledge they might want to know about our technology, our history, and our cultures. I think that they would care very much about us, one way or another.

[bigjnorman]

I don't really think its a matter of whether there is life or not, just consider the many different kinds of life on earth.

I think that given the right environment, life will certainly manifest itself as it has here.

there are plenty of things you would have to account for when asking these types of questions.

ex) you must consider the nature of the life form: bacteria on earth is far simpler than the other living organisms yet it is very efficient at surviving.

ex) you must consider why the life form would travel this far, innerstellar travel would severely tax the organisms' time relation with the local time where it came from.

and the list goes on......what I wrote in the previous post isn't a view I adopted on my own, it is something that I read out of one of stephen hawking's books. but it totally blew me away when I read it and opened my mind to things I had never thought of before.

[BetweenThePoints]

The issue I was discussing wasn't so much if there is life, but rather, is there lots of intelligent life. What I meant to say was that if there is very little, then perhaps any super advanced races out there would be very interested in us, and that, unlike popular belief, they might see us as equals to themselves for the simple fact that we are a civilization building species, instead of looking at us like monkies or something similar. The way many people put it is that "since they would be thousands or millions or even billions of years ahead of us technologically, then we must appear as lower lifeforms to them." Do we look back at the Romans and say "well, since we are two thousand years ahead of the Romans, they must be some sort of lower life form. They're not like us" when so many examples tell us otherwise. There is a big difference between technological advancement and intelligence. We can do things now that would have made stone age man believe us to be gods, when in fact we are no more or less intelligent than they, all we have on them is time. What I'm trying to say is that, just because and alien species may be a quarter-million years ahead of us technologically, that doesn't mean they would look on us as inferior to themselves, because any truely advanced race, both mentally and technologically, would see that, given enough time, we could be just like them, whereas it is quite possible that a chimp will never be like us.

[bigjnorman]

I must disagree with you here, a quarter million years of evolution will do a great deal to a species. However, if you look at how much our DNA has evolved over time, its pathetically slow. When common languages were introduced and books began to be printed this was a way of learning from past generations without having to wait for our DNA to catch up. Soon, we will be able to change our DNA however we want. Now imagine over the past million years, our DNA's evolution rate improving from (1 bit every 100 years) to (1 bit per year). Technology will soon allow us to dramatically change our DNA generation by generation. Able to encode past generation knowledge into our newborns, we will not have to spend the majority of our productive lives just catching up on what previous generations allready know (being educated).

Basically, what I'm saying is that 1million years of evolution to a chimp wouldn't allow it that much improvement, but with current human technology, 1 million years from now, the human race(if we survive) will be fundamentally different than we were before this type of self-improvement was around.

[BigBlueHead]

I think that if there was an alien race, they would be teeny tiny and move and think one hundred billion times faster than us. Then, when they came to Earth, they would see a planet full of unmoving statues with no apparent signs of life.

Of course, we would present a valuable resource! Our precious hormones and organic chemicals would be immensely useful to them, because on their planet developing these compounds would take hours and hours, much longer than the lifespan of one of their species.

So, you'd be sitting at the table eating breakfast cereal one day.

Now we must shift over to the time scale of the aliens, of course.

Their tiny expeditionary force would come into your house, scale your unmoving frame with tiny alien grappling hooks, and examine you all over for your general size and shape. Then a message would have to be returned to their central authority before anything more could be done. Nanoseconds would pass.

Finally, the authority would return a recall order to the expeditionary force. They would go back to their staging area and await another order. Meanwhile, tiny alien money would be changing appendages somewhere, and a mining consortium would be given mineral rights to your body. The title search could take as long as a microsecond, but it would ultimately be worth it.
Finally, mining operations can begin!

First they would construct a giant scaffold all about your body, taking care to anchor it to your skin in agreed upon places. Then, they would begin their careful excavation. What wonders they would find! Vast complex proteins, enzymes, and other organic compounds! Eventually, your body would be considered mined out, all of its riches plundered. Environmentalist aliens would probably stage some kind of protest, clustering around your feet with tiny signs for a few nanoseconds, trying to convince the mining company to preserve your natural beauty.

When the last useful substance was removed from your frame, the operation would be shut down and the scaffold removed; your body would be condemned and made closed to the public. Noone would be concerned about the imminent collapse of your remaining material - that wouldn't happen for another half second or so.

Now let's return to your time frame.

Your empty skin and hollow bones collapse to the floor with a "flop" sound.

Hooray for aliens!

[BetweenThePoints]

bigjnorman,

What I am trying to say is that just the fact that we can think and understand in such complex ways, and that we can realize that these extraterrestrials are more advanced than us, makes us an extremely intelligent species. This may be very valuable to the alien species because they may see us for what we are. Not only the dominant species on the planet, but a technological civilization that, as you said, could be alot more advanced in a relatively short amount of time. They may see themselves in us, sort to speak, and decide that we are more valuable than a mere mammal that happens to use a stick to catch ants.

Why is it always the assumption that some alien species will always think in such cold, statistical terms, that the only things of us that would be valuable to an alien species would be the carbon that we are made of, because it just happens to be what many of their plastic compounds are made of?

Have you ever thought of the fact that they might not even just sit back there and watch us grow if what I said was the case? Have you ever thought that maybe they would embark on genetic engineering that would make our two species compatible for reproduction, and that they may just, as one of my friends so eloquently put it, fuse us into them like welding a piece of steel onto the frame of a car? I think that is the most intrigueing idea I have ever heard.

[bigjnorman]

its quite possible, but I don't think its very probable.

I think that we will eventually integrate computers with our bodies. The reason is that currently, our brain is limited in its computational speed by the speed of the chemical messengers that carry out our thought process. Its not a big deal now but it will be a big limiting factor in the centuries to come. So as our brain evolves, it can become dumb but very quick, or very smart but slow thinking: The problem is somewhat analogous to Virtual Memory mapping techniques in computers.

.......anyways, what your friend is proposing would be like humans going against all odds to try to invent someway for us to mate with monkeys. Why would a superior race go to all the trouble of inventing some way to integrate with a subordinate race when they are better off without them?

[BigBlueHead]

BTP said:
fuse us into them like welding a piece of steel onto the frame of a car

In general, our interaction with other species has been to:

1) grind them up and eat them in sandwiches
2) roast their soft tissues and devour steaming chunks of them
3) boil their bones in water to produce savoury broth
4) peel off their outer layers and make clothes out of them

... and in one particularly impressive case...

5) force-feed them grain, taking advantage of a peculiarity of their physiology that causes their liver to become huge and fatty under this process, so that we can rip it out and grind it into a delicious paste that goes nicely on a cracker.

So given that when we encounter other species we generally eat them, why would a vastly superior race have any other use for us? They might have vastly superior recipes.

Seriously, I think your concept of human importance is majorly wishful.

It seems more likely that we would be studied by alien scientists as part of a research project than that they would want to have anything to do with us directly.

(I am not against the eating of other animals, incidentally. I know most of them would eat ME if given the chance, so I don't feel that bad about it.)

[BetweenThePoints]

I think that a vastly superior race would still be interested in our culture, just as we study past cultures here on earth (Even those cultures that we are vastly superior than) and they would definitely have more uses for us than consumption. We are much, much, much, much smarter than most of the animals that we eat, unless, ofcourse, you eat monkey brains.

Ofcourse, maybe your right, maybe the first alien race we meet would be alot like that episode of the Outer Limits- "To serve man." Heh, Heh.

[bigjnorman]

thank you Big Blue

[BetweenThePoints]

Well, to reply to you bigjnorman, I didn't see you other post. Perhaps there would be some sort of advantage for them in merging with us. Perhaps by that time they would have neglected their physical selves, looking more toward their minds. Perhaps they might be beset by a warlike races just as advanced as themselves, and maybe they need and increase in strength. I dunno, kinda sounds rediculous to me aswell, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

[bigjnorman]

perhaps, noone really knows, thats why these forums are here.

[AAF]

"Why would an extraterrestrial civilization come here"?

Good question!
They didn't come here, perhaps, because there are more interesting places for them to visit than Earth.
In other words, maybe, Earth is a dull place, and we don't know it.

[bigjnorman]

yup,

perhaps we're the most advanced civilization in the entire universe

maybe a long shot but maybe not

[AAF]

"Perhaps we're the most advanced civilization in the entire universe".
PERHAPS!
But the probability of that being the case, is very very very close to ZERO.

[Crushing Belial]

(Why would they come?) they have always been here
the Sumerians saw them the Aztecs saw them the Mayans and Incas from 6000 years ago and all though the ages, these different civilizations have the same story of creation that beings from space created them in their own image, these beings are the (b'nai elohim) Hebrew for SONS OF GOD = Fallen Angels.

[bigjnorman]

Originally posted by AAF
PERHAPS!
But the probability of that being the case, is very very very close to ZERO.

yes, but its not zero is it, and you can't just say that the probability is close to zero, because you are begging the question of whether other intelligent life forms exist in the first place.


Originally posted by Crushing Belial
all though the ages, these different civilizations have the same story of creation that beings from space created them in their own image

some ancient civilizations worshiped the Sun, Moon, ect... and believed in theses gods so much that some would take their own lives. Now we look back and see how stupid they were. This is why I can't believe an any God. Sorry, but if we don't learn from our mistakes, it would be like re-inventing the wheel every so often.

[BigBlueHead]

They told us in school that the Haida believed humankind originally crawled out of a clam; people generally don't credit this claim nowadays.

Why is coming from the sky a more compelling idea? People stare at the sky all the time. I don't have any trouble believing that different groups of people independently came to the idea that humanity came from "star people" 'cause it's a pretty romantic idea.

They all probably came up with pointy sticks too.

The main argument that I've heard for the alien genesis of humanity is that a lot of ancient buildings, such as the pyramids and the old Inca cities, were made to exacting measurements that engineers do not believe that ancient people were capable of.

As such, the alien theory is
1) not based on too much hard evidence (a combined inference from RELIGION and ARCHITECTURE)
2) not terribly kind to ancient people (since those primitive losers could never have built a pyramid on their own).

[Ares]

In my view there is actually little good evidence to suggest we are not alone in our galaxy so far as advanced life is concerned-and no-one has in my view successfully 'explained away' the Fermi paradox.

If aliens for some reason did visit our solar system to invade us, then obviously there is not much we could do about it. I am highly doubtful aliens would come to steal our DNA-surely a civilisation advanced enough for space travel would easily be able to genetically engineer whatever it wanted using resources available locally (after all, CHON compounds occur fairly widely throughout the galaxy). My bet is they would be most interested in the asteroid belt, the Oort Cloud and the gas giants-mainly as building materials for spacecraft, for volatiles and for fuel. Aliens would probably land self-replicating Von Neumann machines that would then 'convert' the raw body-i.e. a mineral rich asteroid-into an automated factory or whatever it was the aliens wanted-to make parts for spacecraft or for whatever purpose they had in mind.

To spacefaring aliens, unless they wanted Earth for raw materials, we would probably be ignored. In terms of raw materials, the Moon would be a better proposition-aliens could quite easily set up automated factories on there without having to worry about getting the processed product out of a deep gravity well. We would not really be a threat (after all all of our most dangerous weapons have a range of only a few thousand kilometres and are aimed against ourselves) and if we were considered a problem, the aliens could easily knock us off by slamming a big asteroid into the planet, or by bombarding our main population centres from space, 'Footfall' style.

I think it is more likely our solar system would be visited by some sort of intelligent automatic probe, analgous to the 'Snark' that occurs in one of Greg Benford's stories. A probe could quickly survey the system for life and move on, without the trouble you would have with a manned spacecraft-and since billions of planets in the galaxy could be habitats for life, exploratory aliens would need to quickly find out which systems had life and which didn't.

[AAF]

"Yes, but its not zero is it, and you can't just say that the probability is close to zero, because you are begging the question of whether other intelligent life forms exist in the first place".
=========================================
There is no 'begging the question' here.
The probabilityof 'non-existing exraterrestrial civilazations' is infinitely small, and the probability of the opposite proposition is infinitely close to one. That is because the random sample-- in this case the universe-- is infinitely large. And since we know CIVILIZATION exists on Earth, it is, therefore, 'infinitely' certain that NATURE has repeated this 'CIVILIZATION' experiment 'infinite' times.

[Mr. G]

Why would they come, and what would they be like?
Opportunism. Opportunists.

Where's the surprise?

Adaptors.

Survivors.

[Crushing Belial]

People here really need to study ancient civilizations i.e. Sumerians.

[Mr. G]

You mean, Aliens are DOA?

[jinster]

"Sometimes I think that the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of them has tried to contact us."

- Calvin and Hobbes

The aliens are probably laughing at how stupid we are and waiting for the day we wipe ourselves out. ;)

[BigBlueHead]

Crushing Belial - if we can imagine aliens, why couldn't the Sumerians? It is possible that their stories of people from the sky are for entertainment...

[Kunax]

The aliens are probably laughing at how stupid we are and waiting for the day we wipe ourselves out

lol we are 1 huge reality show

[bigjnorman]

Originally posted by Ares
Aliens would probably land self-replicating Von Neumann machines

I must say, (he he) that the aliens computer would most certainly have a non-Von Neumann architecture.

[AAF]

Originally posted by bigjnorman
I must say, (he he) that the aliens computer would most certainly have a non-Von Neumann architecture.

What if one of the aliens is Von Neumann himself?

[bigjnorman]

LOL !, then we would all be using Macs instead of PCs

[bigjnorman]

never-the-less, they could definately have a Von Neumann emulator

[ossipoff]

You wrote:

Extraterrestrials: Why would they come

I reply:

Apparently they wouldn't. I mean, they haven't, after all. As I was saying in a different thread, this galaxy is so old that an earlier civilization would have had plenty of time to thoroughly explore & catalog all the stars in the galaxy. But no one has come.

Apparently, if anyone is out there, they aren't inclined to contact us.

My explanation, on a different thread, was that we've been quarantined by being put into a universe containing no life except for us.

You continued:

, and what would they be like?


I reply:

Very advanced, most likely. As someone else pointed out, it would be very unlikely to to meet a society that's at our own technical level. Any spacefaring society will likely be far far more advanced than we are.


You continued:

and most importantly, would they be hostile?

I reply:

No. If they considered us a possible danger (even a scorpion can be a danger to a human), there are humane ways to protect themselves from us.

And surely, our distance from them would make our resources ver expensive to them. And if they were so advanced that the expense of getting here weren't a problem, surely they wouldn't
be in need of anything we have.

So no, there wouldn't be a hostile visit.

You continued:

If so, what would we do, and how would we do it?

I reply:

What woud we do if they were hostile? I don't know, but it wouldn't make any difference in the outcome.

You continued:

How far ahead of us would they be?

I reply:

Very far, for the reasons that I discussed earlier in this reply.

Mike Ossipoff

[Norman]

It's a matter of fact (biblical fact that is). The only true E.T. came to Earth 2,000 years ago, who looked like us, meant well and tried to point us in the right direction and look what we did to him!!!! I think any intelligent alien life form out there who either does or does not look like us, who has the means to travel in interstellar space would probably shy away from this place for fear of what we would do to them if they chanced a landing here.....

Get the picture (Remember The Day The Earth Stood Still: circa 1951...Klaatu)??? Should be a lesson.....

Norm:D

[Arch_Rival]

Here's something i came up with sometime ago, which i posted on singastro.org.

Probability of Intelligent Life in the Universe

Introduction

We have often wondered if we are alone in this universe. Are we the only intelligent lifeforms around, or are there other extraterrestial civilizations out there, waiting to make contact?
Here is a simple mathematical model seeking to offer a partial answer to that question. The derivation of the proof is presented, as well as a brief discussion on the interpretation of the results.

Derivation of the Sample Space

Suppose there is an imaginary boundary around our solar system. Enclosed within is our planet, which has intelligent life(us). Now, we allow this imaginary boundary to expand outwards to nearby star systems and beyond. As the boundary expands, we encompass more and more star systems.

At any time, the number of star systems within the boundary is x.

Assuming all this while, ours is the only system with intelligent life,

p(star forms that eventually will have intelligent life) = 1/x.
(This is the probability that stars formed within an abitrary time period now past so that the star is in existance now.)

p(star forms that eventually will not have intelligent life) = (x-1)/x.

And following, within the sample space:

p(all stars eventually do not have intelligent life) = [(x-1)/x]^x.

p(there is one system with intelligent life) = x(1/x)[(x-1)/x]^(x-1).

Therefore,

p(at least 2 intelligent lifeforms) = 1 - [(x-1)/x]^x - x(1/x)[(x-1)/x]^(x-1).

As we let x tend to a very large value (infinity) the probability of at least 2 intelligent lifeforms in the universe tend toward a value of 0.264. Therefore, there is a 0.264 chance that the universe will be in a state where there are two or more civilizations now.

Since we are here now, what is the probability there is at least one more advanced civilization out there now? To determine that:

p(star forms without life) = (1-1/x)

Remaining no of stars in the universe besides ours = x-1

p(at least one remaining star has life) = 1 - (1-1/x)^(x-1)

Again if we let x tend to a very big number, we get a value of 0.64. There is a 0.64 chance there is another intelligent civilization in the universe.

Discussion of the Results

We have assumed as our sample space x extends, we are, at all times, the only intelligent lifeforms around. This assumption may not be true. Perhaps, in a nearby star system, there are already intelligent life there. As such, the value of 0.264 is a lower bound. The probability we are not alone can be higher, but not lower.

One of the questions that concerns us is: will we make contact with the intelligent extraterrestials? We are likely to make contact if, firstly, we are in close proximity to them, and secondly, they are able to communicate.

To answer the first part, lets modify the equations a little. Assuming there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy,

p(at least 1 other intelligent lifeform in our galaxy) = 1 - [(x-1)/x]^1e11 - (1e11/x)[(x-1)/x]^(1e11-1).

If we graph p against x, the value of p falls very quickly to zero. This indicates that the probability there is another intelligent lifeform within our galaxy is very small. However, the implicit assumption here is that the probability of a star system having life eventually is 1/x, and tends to zero as x (the number of systems) tend towards infinity. This may not be true. The probability of intelligent life forming around a star should not be dependent on the number of star systems in the universe. Likely it will level off into some finite value. This probability (1/x) is true only if, as we assumed, we are the only intelligent life around in the entire universe.

If we pick the closest 5000 stars, this probability will tend to zero even faster. In other words, it becomes increasingly unlikely to have an intelligent civilization close to us. But remember, this probability is also a lower bound.

To answer the second part, unfortunately this mathematical model does not say if the intelligent life has communication capabilities. The initial sample space is based on us being the only intelligent life around. We certainly do not have long range communication capabilities. In all fairness, following the assumptions strictly, neither will the intelligent extraterrestials.

We have to remember the values obtained here are based on the assumption we are the only intelligent life in the universe. As such, the values are all lower bounds. The value of 0.64 suggests that even at it's lowest, it is probable (>0.5 probability) there is at least another intelligent life in our universe. The probability of at least two or more intelligent civilizations (0.264) suggest multiple civilizations have significant probability of existing at this moment.

[Norman]

You can theorize all you want about intelligent alien life forms living in other solar systems in outer space, but the simple fact of the matter is, if you don't get a answer when you call, it probably means no one is at home......So if you dial the same number 10 times and no answer, a 100 times, a 1,000 times and etc., etc., etc., and still no answer???? You get the picture don't ya......Don't burn your calculator out and don't worry too much about recieving any collect calls from E.T. in the near future.

Keep on trucking.....

Norm:D

[Arch_Rival]

We aren't getting a return signal because maybe they aren't replying, or they can't reply. Remember, not getting a reply from them doesn't mean they don't exist. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Again this are philosophical questions.

Fortunately, advance in telescope technology is offering scientific answers to the question of whether aliens are likely to exist (so-and-so telescope spotted a dust clound orbitting star...etc). We aren't likely to arrive at an obvious answer yet, but we are getting there.



:)

[Norman]

Yea, I can imagine a dinosaur on another planet would have a hard time building a radio telescope to recieve radio transmissions from Earth.....Let alone expecting him to send back a reply.....Right???...Right!!! Give him a break though, at least he's open minded.......

Everyday is payday.....

Norm:D

[Arch_Rival]

Originally posted by Norman
Yea, I can imagine a dinosaur on another planet would have a hard time building a radio telescope to recieve radio transmissions from Earth.....Let alone expecting him to send back a reply.....Right???...Right!!! Give him a break though, at least he's open minded.......

Everyday is payday.....

Norm:D

And your point is......?

[Norman]

My point is; You have to give the dinosaurs some credit; "Where there is no intelligence, there is no Stupidity".........No so in our case. Right??? Right!!!

Enjoy....

Norm:D

[Arch_Rival]

Originally posted by Norman
My point is; You have to give the dinosaurs some credit; "Where there is no intelligence, there is no Stupidity".........No so in our case. Right??? Right!!!

Enjoy....

Norm:D

What makes you think so?

[spuriousmonkey]

ETs will be made out of metal, they come from outer space, and they will be cold to the touch.


but they don't like to be touched. be careful

[Votorx]

There is simply no way of knowing if extraterrestrials will come or not. But because of all the commotion we would make if they did come may make them hostile, for they may not know or understand our ways. Or a more resonable event, we would begin attacking them out of pure fear and stereotypicuality rather than trying to accept peace. As for know what they would look like, you can ever tell. It all matters on what kind of planet they lived on, how far away they live from the sun and from what kind of organism did they evolve from.

[Norman]

"The Day The Earth Stood Still" (circa: 1951) Remember Klaatu??? You should watch this movie and let it be a lesson to us all!!!

Enjoy....

Norm :D

[Persol]

Just remember not to sneeze or cough around aliens. They seem to turn into mush.

As for why they would come... the same reasons we look for life in space (or possibly more like the reasons we investigate animal communities).