China and Bumper Planes...

[Bowser]

I think China is having a tantrum. What are your thoughts?

Here's an, uh, alternative news source for those who enjoy stories:

http://www.chinadaily.net/

[Boris]

I'd like to remind someone that Congress was the primary governmental organization that had to approve the favored nation status. Besides, the current administration has never had a better reason to revoke the status from China. Do you seriously believe that the worshippers of capitalism currently at the head of our country would do something like that?

Personally, I always thought that hooking up with China in this way is a mistake. If we needed massive cheap labor, we should've gone to India instead; at least they TRY to emulate our country. The "policy of engagement" is fine, but becoming outright dependent on China is stupid, stupid, stupid.

[Boris]

I won't blaim Brush for the economy, but I certainly blaim Wood for the current energy prices in California. Of course, it wouldn't fit Shrub's religious belief that federal government is not there to manage interstate commerce -- otherwise a reasonable thing would have been to place PRICE CAPS on electricity months ago. Godot knows, he was asked, no, BEGGED to do it. Guess which state drives the U.S. economy in the information age? Ever heard of silicon valley? It is DUMB and IRRESPONSIBLE to allow California to come under such an energy crisis; the repercussions will be felt across the country.

And as for cheap Indian labor, there's nothing to apologize for or hurt sensitivities with. That's <u>exactly</u> how our country <b>USED</b> the Chinese, the Indonesians, the Koreans, the Philippinos, the Mexicans -- and it's no secret. Do you really think they don't know that they are being horribly underpaid compared to what similar laborers would earn in U.S.? Heck, there's nothing wrong with exploitation of foreigners -- our economy loves it! Isn't that so? Oh, wait, I forgot the prime moral justification: without our investment, they wouldn't even so much as have what little they have. True, absolutely true. But it doesn't detract from the fact that they are being <b>exploited</b>.

[Bowser]

<i>"Boris, I too am aware that Bowser is of Indian decent..."</i>

You're funny. I'm something from the the blender. That's all I can be certain of. Uhm...Mr. Diversity?

[Malaclypse]

We could harp on certain "bad things" of each and every nation on earth and we all know that politics has absolutely nothing to do with friendship!!

Shall we talk about the atrocities done by the Israelis to the Palestinians? I don't think that would be a popular subject, eh?

And ASIAN PARANOIA? What a joke.....Come on Mr. Stern....this isn't QUEEFER MADNESS!!!

[Bowser]

<b><font color = "green">Bud, bud, buddy...</font></b>

I never really enjoyed smoking that stuff, but that didn't keep me from smoking it many years back. I had friends who would start their day with a hit and keep sucking it down throughout the day till bed. I never found that much pleasure in it.

As for the Chinese, do their pilots smoke dope?

[ripleofdeath]

duuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
is all i can think of in this situation cos
CHINA WON
they got the plane,
who in there rite mind would
belive they would dare enrage the biggist country / technology, in not giving back the crew.
they had to look good / strong for thier people,
and of coarse the chineese pilot aint dead
hes prob been practicing the manouver for months
notice how plump(as such) his wife is
most chineese are not that weight.
she prob lives like a queen
and he is a martre...or is that a flight-trainer(new)
and anywho... did you think the U.S would get-away with bombing thier embasy without paying for it???????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
now you know wat it cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
just the never ending stooooooooory
:D
groove on

[ripleofdeath]

hey howard
love your thoughts on that
amazing i thought that oh how young was all the special well trained...? spy crew were
young dumb and home they come... on
:D
when do they get there medals
mwaahha!
i think you could be rite about the orrigin of the act itself
because if it was that secret they would have baild out and dumped the plane at high speed into the sea
so i thought anywho
groove on

[Bowser]

Well, Fellas, we may never know the truth of this, uh, accident. It's good to feel a little anger once again.

We can watch and see how it plays out. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese would risk 8 billion in export into the US market over such a small matter. Maybe they are ignorant slopes, but I doubt it.

[ripleofdeath]

mass produce chocolate bars with wrappers with pictures(different ones...say a colection of 10...that would stir constructive futurrist interest by the kids) of people in different cities in the us showwing
european and chineese people living ...working...
and there children playing together
and then use stealth bombers to drop them in all the rural areas for a couple of days then drop them on the main city suberbs
the only risk would be if the chineese govt found out they might try and poison some of the rural area ones to make it look like an attack
so thats why you would have to do the rural areas first and with stealth and speed
:D
my theory by a chocolate freak
:D
:D
:D
groove on

[Malaclypse]

PROP PLANE vs. JET FIGHTER

what's the friggin' argument here?

[tetra]

We had a huge prop-plane EP3 wich was on AUTOPILOT, and the Chinese had an agile free-flying jet fighter on MANUALPILOT. Manned by a guy named Wong Way non the less! Just as in boating incidents, the smaller craft is always to blame, because it has more manueverability.

[ripleofdeath]

:D too true
the chineese control there media soo much that the real chineese person has a twisted view of the world that lends strength to the facist dictators who run the country.
we should not be surprised at these things as much as trying to make people aware of the real issues
groove on all
:)

[Corp.Hudson]

I personally hold the belief that China should keep the airplane. It does not matter who was at fault for the accident. The american plane was in Chinese waters when it hit the Chinese fighter jet, and landed at a Chinese air force base.

If an American jet hit a Chinese spy plane, and the Chinese spy plane made an emergency landing at an American air force base, America would handle the situation in the exact same manner. America would detain the Chinese crew, interrogate them, and release them. America would keep the plane for a longer period of time, to try and figure out why the crash occured, and also probably to check up on Chinese technology.

Also, I think everyone is a little bit too upset at the Chinese government. One of my core beliefs is that no government stays in power without the consent of the governed. I believe that the Chinese government has the consent of the governed. The Chinese people do not lead miserable lives in extreme poverty, despite the propaganda spread by American media. People think that when per capita GDP's are compared (Americas is ten times that of China), we can tell if the people are in poverty or not. This is simply not true. The truth is, a dollar goes much further in China. A full meal can be purchased at a nice restaurant for under a dollar! The cost of living is low, so the wages are also low.

Also, people seem to distrust the Chinese state-controlled media, and seem to prefer the free press in America. What people forget is that thus far the so-called free press in America has had only one source of information - the Defense Department. So both nations are being force fed government propaganda, and the people of both nations do not realize that fact.

[Rambler]

Corp.Hudson

Are you chinese???
or have you ever lived in a communist country???

Let me ask you this if everything is so well in china then why are we getting BOAT AFTER BOAT AFTER BOAT of illegal imegrants (sp?) landing in Australia from china. Tell me why a family who has it so good in china would risk everything?? put their childrens lives in EXTREME danger just to get out of china???

[ripleofdeath]

if they had nothing to hide in the genral society(given the usa probly has the biggest list of govt murder in the western world)
why wont they let them leave when they want to????????????????????????????????????????
YES THE USA IS DOOMED WITH ITS PEOPLES LACK OF IMPARTIAL NESS/ MOST ARE HARD CORE CRISTIANS OR JEWS
THEY DONT KNOW HOW TO LOOSE... [THE WHOLE SOCIETY IS SET UP TO THE WINNER NO MATTER IF THEY CHEAT]
also american public image is one of extreem ego and self importance which is entirly self distructive...
BUT
they dont close the borders and if you catch them doing something illegal and get it to the press they are fucked
not in china the press is the govt and people cant say what they think!
hey corp ti-anamin square was no sunday picknic
people were rounded up even years after and were taken away and never heard from again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i myself try not to buy things that are made in china OR usa BUT WITH MOST OF THE BIG STUFF... WE HAVE NO OPTION
so..
bad points all round .. i know ...but im only looking out for the poor and average worker cos all the rich are
total loosers{they can go anywhere and do what they want]...so. lets get spacetravel mooving so they can all fuck off to the sun
:D
aint life a hoot
:)

[daktaklakpak]

Originally posted by Rambler
Corp.Hudson
Are you chinese???
or have you ever lived in a communist country???

Let me ask you this if everything is so well in china then why are we getting BOAT AFTER BOAT AFTER BOAT of illegal imegrants (sp?) landing in Australia from china. Tell me why a family who has it so good in china would risk everything?? put their childrens lives in EXTREME danger just to get out of china???


Because the Chinese Government only show the bad things in western worlds. And the circulated rumors only tell the good things in western worlds. People don't trust govermnet medias, so they assume the rumors are the truth. Free gold on the ground, free this and free that, even free sex. No wonder they come in wave after waves.

[patriotSTORM]

Originally posted by ripleofdeath
but im only looking out for the poor and average worker cos all the rich are total loosers{they can go anywhere and do what they want]...so. lets get spacetravel mooving so they can all fuck off to the sun


Sounds like you have the same concerns as the communists - ie: some having wealth is wrong. However, you solution is - well,.....................unusual to say the least.

[ripleofdeath]

yo patriot
the rich of the world belive in survival of the fittest!
SO beacause i have been trained in some form of hand to hand combat does mean that it is only rite for me to kill a rich person and take there money?
that is the ultimate step of survival of the fittest!

*poor people die every day from not being able to afford medical treatment while people with billions of dollars prance about buying new goldplated cheese graters!

youre thoughts?

groove on all

[Tiassa]

Sounds like you have the same concerns as the communists - ie: some having wealth is wrong. However, you solution is - well,.....................unusual to say the least.
One of the American fights the economy has spurred, and one which stays low-key, because it is a telling figure throughout all of history, not just in American history, is the notion of created wealth. Whereas economic conservatives hail the "Reagan Economy" for creating X number of new jobs and introducing Y amount of wealth, economic liberals generally charge that Reaganomics created mostly low-paying jobs (whereby the social conservative value of "family", including the idea that one or the other parent should stick to parenting while the other wins bread, begins to fall to dust), and that the wealth created did not "trickle down" as advertised.

A criticism of Communism which I recognize on two levels is important here: Some (my father included) assert that Communism "trusts" human nature too much; from each according to their ability, to each according to their need. My father's brand of conservatism criticized the difference between ability and will; that is, if the next guy on the line is getting paid the same as you and sits around being lazy, why should you work hard? The result, of course, being poor product quality and economic decline. I accept this; it is a valid and telling point. Yet the same economic conservatism has traditionally denied the same fault of Americanized capitalism; specifically, we see this in Reaganomic trickle-down. The idea of course being that if you coddle the wealthy, that benefit will pay off down the pyramid. It has not. A classic example is Reebok shoes; management lays off a third of its manufacturing force for "financial" reasons, and on the same day approves bonuses, raises, and gifts to its own management and executive staff which would have spoken for most, if not all, of the jobs. Perhaps the sportswear manufacturer could have, by its ability retained those employees. By the company's will, however, it did not. This is essentially the same device.

The benefit of Communism as a philosophy is that it recognizes the social unit on the grounds that, if the individual is all that is important, why, then, come together in society in the first place? It seems rather stupid if society is something we only tolerate so that we can screw the next guy. In that sense, the Capitalist individualism only considers the larger community in terms of market-share, growth, and economic potential. The detriment of Communism as a political practice is evident in history: a massive conglomeration of human psyche until individual identity is a mere shadow of a farce.

To turn that same mirror onto Capitalism, I find its greatest benefit to be that it allows satisfaction of my most extraneous greeds. So long as I am willing to compete tooth-and-nail with my neighbors, I can live in relative luxury and ignore the problems of other human beings; perhaps this seems an embittered sympathy, but I keep coming back to individual empowerment within society. It would seem that there must exist somewhere a degree of balance 'twixt the individual and the society that fosters individuals that actually benefits most, if not all, people. I think the primary detriment of Capitalism is seen in its running effect: people are so damned concerned about money.

People having wealth is not wrong. What is wrong in Capitalism is that people exploit wealth, accumulate it extraneously, and complain that someone else's need to eat interfere's with the rich person's right to free enterprise.

As we write and consider, the City of Seattle is at an odd quandary: It has just stomped on a local church that was housing the homeless in a tent city, levying fines, ad nauseam. For those of compassion, sorry, the city had both the right and the duty. Such laws as the city enforced (zoning laws, sanitary laws, &c.) make the issue interesting: Is it better to house the homeless temporarily in unsafe conditions, or not at all? This, of course, caused a storm of protest, despite the fact that the city, by law, had no choice in what action to take. (Do not envision me shedding tears at the city's tight spot.)

Considering this, and the SPD's response to things like traffic interruptions by large numbers of people (usually a small fracas at least), I'm wondering why nobody's tear-gassing the sports enthusiasts camping on the sidewalk outside REI, awaiting the yearly sale, blocking public thoroughfares, littering, and causing some distraction at least. Oh, of course ... REI's going to make some money, which can be taxed by public agencies, so we, the city, will even provide safety barricades to protect these shoppers.

But in this town, a parking lot is more important than a homeless shelter: so much so that the city will take money earmarked for homeless issues and spend it to build Nordstrom's a parking lot. The police have chased panhandlers out of various commercial sectors, claiming that they were a nuisance to shoppers. What, then, of the host of cheerleader squads, youth groups, and other associations receiving money from marketing firms to stand out on these very same sidewalks and accost people with flyers, plastic whistles, or single-serving cereal boxes. I would much rather devote my attention or money to helping someone get a meal, as compared to helping li'l Mary and her friends earn those really neat drill-team uniforms. I would rather give a cigarette to a homeless man than contribute to an upper-middle class student's class-trip to Philadelphia. I would rather hear, "Hey, you got a quarter so I can get a sandwich," than, "Free delivery with your first online purchase!"

Okay ... I'm off my soapbox for now. I know it's been a bit of a digression, but that senitment that Communism thinks wealth is wrong flat-out bugs me. It's one of many American xenophobias that keep us from getting along with the rest of the world.

On the other hand, I could care less about the jet. Between that and the reporting on the Peruvian drug-war shooting, I can't stand American news services right now. I would like to remind the world that Americans are told by their news outlets that the CIA begged the Peruvians not to shoot down those missionaries, and that the notion that the American spy plane was in Chinese waters would find great opposition among the voting, taxpaying masses. As far as the newswires around here are concerned, it might as well have been an evil Chinese cowboy-pilot harassing missionaries over Peru. It's all the same lie, here, but only because in our American-Capitalist something that we call society, it's more important to win than to be right, fair, or even awake.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

[patriotSTORM]

Its really easy to bitch about something, but I dont suppose you have any solutions?

My views on capitilism and democracy? It isnt perfect, but it is sure better than communism and dictatorships. The only thing that communism manage to spread equally was unhappiness.

[Tiassa]

When I was a child, Christians taught me:

* God first
* Others second
* Self last

Whether or not we believe in God, I still like the model.

If Capitalists could possibly put aside their inherent, lovely greed long enough to take a look around without assessing the financial worth of a thing, they might find that by simply treating each other well, we can reduce a great number of our problems.

While I'm not trying to pick on Christians for the sake of this post, they're a great example: American Christians are, often, Americans first and Christians second. It isn't so much, Whatsoever you do unto the least of my brethren, as it is, Yeah, I see, but I gotta take care of myself first, right? C'mon honey, we need to go get a new DVD player and home theatre system.

In this light, why is it that my company's charity outreach is through our PR department? Because reputation and sales are the important consideration. At our last charity blackmail (soon to be repeated), a list of charities offered to contribute to did include mostly religious groups of one general persuasion, but included no "controversial" charities; the token "cultural" charity was a Christian outreach to indigenous tribes. But this godless insurance company is not out there funding needle exchanges, condom distribution, birth control information, or vital, immediate charity needs because of what such press might do to sales. People are always happy to give their second-hand clothes to international disaster relief, but what the heck is so hard about giving a little to, oh, HIV prevention education? There's how immediate the greed is, and even I am subject to such considerations: I understand that this child in Armenia or wherever has been leveled by a flood or an earthquake needs this sweater. But I also understand that I need to do something to protect my own child (theoretic at this point) from local threats, such as, oh, HIV. People are, in this comparison, so greedy that they'll send their secondhand clothes halfway around the world, but will stand on morals against condom distribution or needle exchanges without thinking that somebody, someday, in town, might bleed on your child, or to be a little less counterdramatic, infect your kid.

The solution's not hard: People tend to treat the world as if it is their own playground designed to their own preferences. Quite simply, we/they (I recognize that I am an American, and inherently riddled with such contradictions, and thus recognize the need to include myself among the afflicted) need to stop doing this.

I encountered the spirit of Khidr yesterday. And then I saw a dead woman walk; she asked me for a cigarette. All things considered, perhaps I'm being a little oversensitive on this topic. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

[Corp.Hudson]

I repeat my belief - No government stays in power without the peoples consent.

The soviet union, when it existed, was very popular with the people. In fact, in a recent poll conducted by Newsweek found the seventy-something percent (I could go look for the exact figure, but I am lazy) of Russians regretted its fall, and the subsequent rise of democracy and capitilism. Also 57% of Russians supported Putins recent actions to end free press. This is especially telling because Newsweeks bias should have produced figures that said exactly the opposite.

Here in America, we love to bitch about other countries not being "free" and democratic. Our ethnocentrism leads us to believe that our governmental system, since it has worked for us, should therefore work for everyone else. This is not true. Other cultures prefer different systems of government. This would explain that while it is incomprehensible to us Americans that dictators would have the support of the people, Stalin was enormously popular in Russia. Mao was enormously popular in China, even during the cultural revolution. Saddam is popular today in Iraq. Castro is popular today in Cuba.

A simple fact that us ethnocentrists need to realize is that the American way is NOT the right way. It is not the lesser of two evils. It is simply the <b>American</b> way. It works for Americans, not neccesarily other people. Hence the reason that globalism is so bad.

[Boris]

Corp.

You have something there, but it's incomplete. It is true that certain countries tend to be more predisposed toward democracy &c than others. But that is as much a fault of culture/ethnicity as it is of the previous governments and the associated history. Culture and government are not distinct; they co-evolve. Therefore, imposing a new government upon a culture that is "incompatible" with it, will gradually change both the government and the culture, toward some sort of a compromise state which in itself is not final but only a starting point for further change.

At any rate, the American way doesn't only work for America. It has been successfully adopted by many other countries in the world. Granted, it is never copied verbatim but instead adapted to the local realities -- but the general principles of it are sound and universally applicable: representation, checks and balances, regulated market economy, periodic reconstitution of government, freedoms of speech, expression, etc., equal rights for everyone -- and so on. For example, it works quite well in Taiwan -- despite the fact that the people of Taiwan started from the exact same cultural point as the people of China, just prior to the revolution.

And globalization is not a bad thing. It benefits countries in the same way that U.S. states are benefited from being part of a union. In the very long term, globalization will create a stabilizing world economy, will work to equalize standards of living, and will be a unifying force capable of achieving that long-held dream of a single humanity without nationalism, nor ethnic or racial barriers. Globalization will homogenize humanity -- and while some can view that as a loss of diversity, I would argue that it is a gain of cohesiveness and a new sense of brotherhood. Diversity will endure and continue to emerge in other ways (for example in the form of "subcultures"), stemming from freedom of expression.

Of course, over the short-term the process of globalization stirs the waters and results in major "dislocations", as Bush recently put it. I do not necessarily agree with the mode in which globalization is currently progressing (i.e. via essentially unregulated laissez faire capitalistic conquests) -- and I do not necessarily like all of the growing pains associated with that (e.g. sweat shops, corruption of fledgling democratic governments, severe environmental damage) -- and I would strongly argue for a more controlled, more lawful and humane process. However, I have no problem with the overall concept of globalization independently of the actual implementation -- in fact, I welcome it.

[ripleofdeath]

hhhhhhmmmmmmm
i once belived that globalisation was a bad thing.
then i saw the reality of detached social services in our country.
wouldnt it be great...if we could put asside all the racial,class and physical caveman-like mental phobias that seem to grip such a diverse range of the population.
its such a HUGE solarsystem never mind the galaxy.
small mindedness is a self perpetuating doctrine.
I DO WONDER ALLOT how big-a-part, fear in its self plays in this...?
the fear of ones own self..that is.
it does make me feel exasperated when i see things like
CHURCH run pregnancy advice.
and other such perverted doctrine of honestly held helpfull intent.
CCF falls in the same catagory.
hey borris.. just being a little "picky"... but NO system seems to have worked properly yet... none that i have heard of anyway.
you soud like a true "tutor" in your delivery...we need more... :D
tiassa your just soo "on the money"-"shining like gold"-"better than a ten bob note" and genraly overflowing with a wealth of great deseminationaly multi-plyable true-isms... ill give you my vote for the presedency... :D
ONE OF MY LITTLE WISHES-...is to see WHERE all the money REALY goes.
groove on all

[Tiassa]

No government stays in power without the peoples consent.
You have precedent. Locke, Rousseau, and other European philosophers of the period contributed to the inclusion of the phrase, "Consent of the Governed" in our Declaration of Independence. It is a founding principle of being American.

If Americans have forgotten what this means, it is by design of those who would usurp the people's power in pursuit of dominion and wealth. It's why I resent the armed-to-the-teeth non-voters enforcing their right to protect themselves from "the gov'mint".

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

[patriotSTORM]

Originally posted by ripleofdeath
i think you could be rite about the orrigin of the act itself
because if it was that secret they would have baild out and dumped the plane at high speed into the sea
so i thought anywho
groove on

No, under no circumstances would a commander of a P3 Orion ditch their aircraft into the ocean. The crew has no means of escape - no ejection seats, and ditching would be suicide. The pilot in command decided that his crews lices were worth more than the P3 airframe in the hands of the Chinese - and good on him. After all, you can rebuild an airframe, but you can only patch together broken families.

I doubt that the situation was engineered by CIA, let alone the US. Far too many variables. Had they been keen on a confrontation, they would have made sure that the US came off first - not with the spy plane and 24 crew in Chinese hands.

Incidently, a similar incident occured in the 1980s between a Norwegian P3 Orion and a Soviet Su27 Flanker. No fatal;ities, both aircraft making it back to their respective bases. Both parties were eventually found to be at fault.

Another point - in the 1970s a Russian helicoptor crew crashed inside Chine. They were released one year later, after funny things forced onto them like a comprehensive course in Mao's little red book.

[ripleofdeath]

hey patriotstorm...
didnt they have parachutes???
i wouldnt know!
about youre quote at the end of youre posts
WHAT about the man that made the armour for the man in battle?
your statement kinda leaves this point out
i can get the gist of what it may... mean but im not that sure
i am guessing here...
you are in the millitary?
wha do you do?
if i was i would be an armourer i love to play with bomb making things and im a sucker for a good fireworks displays :D
cos fireworks displays are not designed to kill people :D
groove on

[wet1]

Another great subject that I cannot let go without comment. In regards to the spy plane (P3 Orion) and it’s equipment. The special data gathering equipment was disabled and reported back as such prior to landing the plane. The equipment in question has a breakaway plastic key. If in danger of being taken or compromised, the key is broken and the programming inside wiped leaving only a box of components without connection to how it functioned. (At least this is the story disseminated for public consumption.) There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese pilot was at fault. The Orion is not a jet and masses a good bit more in weight than the Chinese fighter craft. That means it is considerably slower and less agile. A fighter craft is basically all engine (picture pilot with legs gripped tightly around so as not to get left behind) for speed. The jet approached from the rear of the Orion. These planes don’t have rear view mirrors! Before the crew could have seen the jet from a window it would have passed them by in an eyeblink. The Chinese pilot had problems before with this kind of stunt or so was reputed by the news sources. It matters not if we get the plane back. Intelligence gathering is always risky. There have been quite a few “incidents over the years” due to this activity. To mind, Gary Powers and the U2 and the captured spy ship, (whose name at the moment eludes me).
I think Dubba decided to play games to cut down on having our boys in custody by a foreign government and the possible backlash a protracted occurrence could have led to. A few words lied out of the side of the mouth with the pres as spokesman. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems a lot cheaper than dragging this out.
I do question allowing China a most favored trade status. With the active spying going on it doesn’t sound as if China can be trusted to me. Especially not as a trading partner! Why should we help their economy when they’re up to such antics? The same for Russia for that matter.
Governments are always secret for various reasons. Either they don’t want you to know what they are capable of or planning, or they are jealously protecting state secrets. (Clinton and Monica) As long as this behavior exists there are going to be problems. I’m not saying go out and give them everything we worked to get. Far from it. But as long as this is the attitude there will be friction between the haves and the have nots.

[patriotSTORM]

Originally posted by ripleofdeath
hey patriotstorm...
didnt they have parachutes???
no

about youre quote at the end of youre posts
WHAT about the man that made the armour for the man in battle?
your statement kinda leaves this point out
i can get the gist of what it may... mean but im not that sure
means, in three words, who dares wins

i am guessing here...
you are in the millitary?
nope

if i was i would be an armourer i love to play with bomb making things and im a sucker for a good fireworks displays :D
cos fireworks displays are not designed to kill people :D
but fireworks commemorates terrorist activities, where the aim was to blow up parliament - thereby killing people. Not that different, is it?

[patriotSTORM]

Originally posted by wet1
Another great subject that I cannot let go without comment. In regards to the spy plane (P3 Orion) and it’s equipment. The special data gathering equipment was disabled and reported back as such prior to landing the plane. The equipment in question has a breakaway plastic key. If in danger of being taken or compromised, the key is broken and the programming inside wiped leaving only a box of components without connection to how it functioned. (At least this is the story disseminated for public consumption.) \
The hardware, esp the radar (which I doubt could be wipped by short circuiting) will still be there. A lot of the software, if not all of it, will be gone, but the hardware will be in Chinese hands.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese pilot was at fault. The Orion is not a jet and masses a good bit more in weight than the Chinese fighter craft. That means it is considerably slower and less agile. A fighter craft is basically all engine (picture pilot with legs gripped tightly around so as not to get left behind) for speed.
Fighters are made for many things, speed actually secondary. Endurance and payload are primary (good exanples: F15, F18, Su27) with maneuvrebility and cruising speed next (MiG29, F16, F22)
The jet approached from the rear of the Orion. These planes don’t have rear view mirrors!
Actually, I think they do (mounted on cockpit frame) I am pretty sure they are used for checking wing clearance when taxiing (so not much use in the given situation)
Before the crew could have seen the jet from a window it would have passed them by in an eyeblink.
THe Chinese aircraft would have definitly being flying in formation -close escort - with the Orion, so I doubt that that is true.

The Chinese pilot had problems before with this kind of stunt or so was reputed by the news sources.
Sure the Chinese print said the same thing about the US!

It matters not if we get the plane back.
Some estimates have put the setback damage to US survelliance ops in the region as 10 years (stratfor) I think they would indeed want the plane back!

I do question allowing China a most favored trade status. With the active spying going on it doesn’t sound as if China can be trusted to me. Especially not as a trading partner! Why should we help their economy when they’re up to such antics?
I think that George will be on the same wavelength. But I doubt the response would be THAT severe.

The same for Russia for that matter.
Once an enemy, always an enemy?

Governments are always secret for various reasons.
Damn, I think our government is public. At least, they appear in the news :)

Either they don’t want you to know what they are capable of or planning, or they are jealously protecting state secrets. (Clinton and Monica) As long as this behavior exists there are going to be problems.
'A government cannot exist without secrets"
Tom Clancy

I’m not saying go out and give them everything we worked to get. Far from it. But as long as this is the attitude there will be friction between the haves and the have nots.
But is it possible to create a society with all haves? Sure, we have the resources, but do we, as a civilisation, have the ability to implement it? And would the people who control the reigns of the world, the haves who are in power, want this to happen?

Kinda the same with wars. The only reason they occur is that they are so very profitable to the arms dealers - who practically run each super powers foreign and trade policies. Gross generalisation, I know, but that is how I see it


Sorry about the layout folks, yet to get my head around replying to fragments of quotes.

[Bowser]

Originally posted by wet1

I do question allowing China a most favored trade status. With the active spying going on it doesn’t sound as if China can be trusted to me. Especially not as a trading partner! Why should we help their economy when they’re up to such antics?

China offers slave labor: Produce your product in China for 25 cents; sell it in America and Europe for 100 dollars. We really want to <b>use</b> the potential which is...how many Chinese?

[Corp.Hudson]

What most people forget is that in most places in China, 25 cents will buy you a full meal. It is important to remember that money does not have the same value everywhere across the world. In some places (like China) the cost of living is very low, while in some places (like the United States) the cost of living is high.

[ripleofdeath]

true ...but...
subdugation(if ive spelt it rite)
is a bad thing anywhere!
as im sure you know ...corp
BUT the chineese use political prisoners to make these things that you and my fellow country people buy!
we need to boycot china from a consumer point!!!!!!!!
dont think that the greedy 'already rich" govt and big buss will say "hey i wont buy your products till you pay for the labour and stop imprisoning people for what they think"
they will say "MORE PROFIT PLEASE"
REGARDLESS OF WHO IS KILLED IN THE PROSCESS!
look at petrol and phmacuticals companies!
how could a GOOD doctor be SOO rich?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
think about that one!
groove on all

[wet1]

The racist ideas never entered my mind At least as an axe to grind or a put down on a particular group of folks. The put down that did come was for an action, which to my mind is quite different from a race of people. My issue was that I don’t think we should support a government who is actively showing hostility towards us. That we should not trade with those whose behavior shows such action. Why invite more grief? Let them stew in their own juices for such actions.
Also while I’m at it. It is not that I feel Russia is still an enemy because it was so in the past. The comment was made because Russia is still at the same activities with spying. Every few years it surfaces as new people are caught accepting money for spying. I know, we do it to. Fighting fire with fire. Because we do does not mean that I agree with it. I don’t. Now I’m sure there are those who will take me to task for such statements but that’s ok. These are my belief’s, right or wrong. Others are invited to their own.

[ripleofdeath]

good points wet1
it all helps fest the paranoid state that they need to justify killing and spying and child slavery and it goes on in every country...
only because too many people dont want to lose the benefits of what they recieve from such perversity... :(
too sad
now that religon has little hold of fear over the populace "they" need to make people fear everything!
... makes great sales potential aswell...
extra mobile phones bigger fences...more guns...
more computer software...and most importantly more UN-ACCOUNTABLE POWER for the sick-oh poor little children who had no real mother or father that need to feel in control of peoples lifes....
too sad :(
fruaid (froi-d) ?
was very clever in some of his discoveries-(as such)
QUESTION would alot of people turn on there neighbour if they had no common enemy?
groove on all

[wet1]

In the thread of China and what got us here, Bush has decided to reinstate the spy flights near China’s border. I guess we’re back to being the bully. I hope this does not put us back to another brush with the Chinese Air Force. Do you think that we’ll have an easy of a time if this incident happens again?

QUESTION would alot of people turn on there neighbour if they had no common enemy?

Yes, I think that people would turn on their neighbor if there were no other common enemy. History shows a lot of that. Look over at the religious threads for answers or at least options to point it out. It seems that one of the benefits of being the victor (spoils) is the ability to rewrite the history of that people/state. Always to upbraid the victor as being justified and heroic in tackling the enemy and showing them the error of their ways. extremely rare, if ever to see mention that it might have been a rich state of which the victor got the access of the riches.

[ripleofdeath]

true
so bush (is that the old one or the new one? :D[could ya tell?])
i suspect that bush has been brain washed because he
has no soul to see!
it is quite possible in my op' that he is using the age old common enemy to allay the camera pointers from his dirty tricks campaign.
i could well belive that if a "first contact" issue was pressed with him by another race he would try and make them out to be bad anywho...!
i hope the crew get a "line of fire" pay rise...
and a jolly big medal for bravery in the face of the mortaly disgruntled... :D
unless china has already placed tactical nukes inside
the usa i cant belive they would dare takeover tiawan
or any other pre cursor to a state of war!
groove on all

[wet1]

Lil’ Dubya has been cursed with living in his daddy’s shadow. I would imagine that it is something that he feels a bit threadbare about by now. While I’m sure that daddy is still there to advise I think that Lil’ Bush want’s to distance himself from that appearance.
I would not go so far as to say he doesn’t have a soul. There is an old saying that goes, Politics makes strange bedfellows. I think that if you look between the lines you’ll see some of his advisors in action. The trouble with advisors is that it is hard to surround yourself with those who see things as you desire and don’t have their own agendas to promote. And if you thought Reagan was a cowboy, wait till you get a load of this Texan.
I don’t know that those who were held after the incident where paid anything more than usual, but you can be sure that they got some kind of ribbon out of it. Napoleon once made the observation that he’d made a marvelous discovery. That men were willing to lay down their lives for a bit of ribbon.

[ripleofdeath]

:D
too true...
maybe a jamming system would be worth the investment :D
i have never heard of it being done to disable a jet though...
you could do it by 'random remote transfer' to an online game called 'land your own mig'.. :D
he he... sorry... now im getting a bit evil.
just a joke by the way

groove on all

[wet1]

It's alright, I find some of your jokes quite humorous in an off sort of way!