View Full Version : Food, Sex, and Tribe...
Food, Sex, and Tribe...
The above defines our purpose? Is it possible to redirect and channel those desires in others?
Originally posted by Bowser
The above defines our purpose? Is it possible to redirect and channel those desires in others? No matter how often I think we've finally gotten past the ridiculous 'meaning of life' debate, up it pops again.
Life has no purpose. By its nature it will attempt to procreate, but by my nature I'll record Buffy if I'm out on Friday night. Doesn't mean I exist for vampire slayers.
We are here because the laws of the universe dictate that we're what will happen to hydrogen after twelve billion years. We don't have a purpose in this cosmos any more than your typical asteroid will be fulfilled by orbitting the sun between Mars and Jupiter.
But if you insist on listing options for what could conceivably be considered to be our raison d'etre: you should've included Quake 3 as an option.
Malaclypse
04-02-01, 08:53 AM
If I was to add any other option, it would be the need for security, the need to build walls and accumulate wealth.
<i>"We are here because the laws of the universe dictate that we're what will happen to hydrogen after twelve billion years. We don't have a purpose in this cosmos any more than your typical asteroid will be fulfilled by orbitting the sun between Mars and Jupiter."</i>
Hmm, I was suggesting that our activities are the evolution of more basic motivations. It wasn't my desire to lead you into a metaphysical quagmire. Maybe the need to play "Quake" can be attributed to an internal animal lust.
Originally posted by Bowser
Hmm, I was suggesting that our activities are the evolution of more basic motivations. It wasn't my desire to lead you into a metaphysical quagmire. Maybe the need to play "Quake" can be attributed to an internal animal lust. Sorry for going off like that. I'm better now.
I wouldn't say are activites are the evolution of more basic motivations; rather the remnants thereof. Sex remains an overriding preoccupation with most, despite the fact that there's no need (as far as the species is concerned). Food is pretty much the same option as your new one; security by any other name. I'm not working right now specifically so I can buy a pizza this evening, but I doubt I'd be here if I didn't want the money. As for the image thing: that's your weak link (IMO). Sure, there are people who care about the opinions of idiots[0], but I refuse to believe they're in the majority.
[0]When I say 'idiots' I mean, of course, muppets, gobshites, idiots, goths, creationists... basically anyone unknown to the principal.
<i>"Sure, there are people who care about the opinions of idiots[0], but I refuse to believe they're in the majority.
[0]When I say 'idiots' I mean, of course, muppets, gobshites, idiots, goths, creationists... basically anyone unknown to the principal"</i>
But you recognize how people gather in groups? Like-minded in their opinions and customs, people form common bonds, and the individual often seeks approval by participating and by conforming to the expectations of the <i>tribe.</i>
Originally posted by Bowser
But you recognize how people gather in groups? Like-minded in their opinions and customs, people form common bonds, and the individual often seeks approval by participating and by conforming to the expectations of the <i>tribe.</i> Recognise it, yeah. Like it? No. Over the years, I've associated - physically and/or virtually - with a bunch of, er, tribes (accurate as the word is in this context, I don't like it). In each case the association was a loose shared interest - be it science fiction, linux, some subgroup thereof or something different. Into this came the idiots; the people who (eg) liked Star Trek, then when they go to their first convention they seek out what's cool, and decide they like that too; they've often gone on to run fan groups. If you use Linux, then it's cool to hate vi or emacs, but you've got to love one of them (as it happens, I'm getting increasingly fond of vi).
My point - lost in there somewhere - is that people will associate because of a shared interest, but when two or three are gathered in Linus' name, then the gobshites come out of the woodwork; swearing undying hatred of Micro$oft despite having loved Office for years, sneering at BSD users even though they don't know what BSD is... the list goes ever on.
People used to gather for survival. Later on a few cavemen may have formed a Mammoth appreciation society, and that's where the rot set in. Since then people have been letting their desire for acceptance override their own likes (am I the only one who knows someone who decided to be a goth, and therefore went to a record store to find out what music she now liked?).
To encapsulate:
-trekkies are assholes
-any gathering of like-minded indviduals will quickly be subsumed by insecure fools, determined to be liked for something
-these fools will take over the agenda - if one exists - and turn it to suit their own whims, removing all purpose
This started out with my disagreeing with you, but I seem to have done little by way of refutation (if that's a word). I guess you're right, but I wish you weren't. Dammit.
I apologise for the possibly esoteric references; write what you know, and all that.
AUSSIEABORIGINAL
04-03-01, 04:26 PM
If the poll asserts that (s)he is animal, which should perform for any above any or else mentioned treat(s), then my answer is option 5.
5) I don't perform for treats. I perform for my own amusement!
afterthoughts.......I also perform to get a chuckle from the witful @EXO-hillarious..... .!^$^%%%&*%&*
ade, is it still pissing in ireland?
AUSSIEABORIGINAL
04-03-01, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Malaclypse
Malicious! You are too damned aggreeable!
AUSSIEABORIGINAL
04-03-01, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Bowser
If I was to add any other option, it would be the need for security, the need to build walls and accumulate wealth.
<i>"We are here because the laws of the universe dictate that we're what will happen to hydrogen after twelve billion years. We don't have a purpose in this cosmos any more than your typical asteroid will be fulfilled by orbitting the sun between Mars and Jupiter."</i>
Hmm, I was suggesting that our activities are the evolution of more basic motivations. It wasn't my desire to lead you into a metaphysical quagmire. Maybe the need to play "Quake" can be attributed to an internal animal lust.
Ok...okokokokokokokokokoko.Ok! damnit! Bowz, are you alluding to entrophy?
I normally wouldn't bring up "entrophy" after the scalding attack by Boris, howevere it seems to hint at such things.
Entropy? Define that for me. Is the redundant expressions of human nature a clue to our limited energy? Are we bound to that beast, only to see it renew itself with each generation?
I've seen the primitives dancing on PBS, but then again, I've seen head-bangers doing the same thing in the local club. Tools...a stick or a micro chip? A popular song...just another tribal chant.
Anyway, it was a passing thought.
<b>Is it possible to redirect and channel those desires in others?</b>
I see a lot of primitive energy out there. How might I take advantage of it?
pragmathen
04-06-01, 01:53 AM
<blockquote>
<font size="1">quote:</font>
<hr>
<i>Originally posted by rde:</i>
...swearing undying hatred of Micro$oft despite having loved Office for years...
<hr>
</blockquote>
First off, this is a great topic to discuss. It is so prevalent wherever you look. My brother and I were just talking about the inane fact that our campus is full of guys with goatees (not that I'm knocking goatees, I grow one on occasion) that seem to be cut from the same mold: square jawline, flared-nostril look, close-cropped hair or a Caesar-cut, wide strides when walking.
Sometimes the homogeneity is stifling. It seems, no matter what, that people tend towards the middle, towards the norm. Even when people try to <i>not</i> conform, they end up conforming with their buddies anyway. Their nonconformist attitude becomes, in essence, the prevalent norm amongst their respective friends.
To be truly adaptable is to be able to fit in amongst the many at different times, rather than to be the same to everyone.
Bowser, you had an excellent point as well ... "the individual often seeks approval by participating and by conforming to the expectations of the <i>tribe</i>." So, even though people strive for individuality, they seem to be striving for the collective acceptance at the same time. If they don't feel validated, then they don't feel part of the group, which, paradoxically, means that they aren't the right type of individual they feel they should be.
As far as channeling those desires in others ... Are you talking about manipulation? That's quite easy. I'd say try to genuinely understand something from their perspective and then they'll have a most difficult time booting you out later if you express opinions contrary to their credo. If you go in with guns blazing, they'll return fire and you'll be worse off than if you had ignored them. If their hicks, talk about trailer parks and inbreeding -- j/k.
Blast! I've seemed to have lost the thread of my thought on this, but I wanted to get this little bit out. I'll have to tackle the redirection of energy thing later. Good thinking, though.
thanks,
prag
<i>"As far as channeling those desires in others ... Are you talking about manipulation? That's quite easy. I'd say try to genuinely understand something from their perspective and then they'll have a most difficult time booting you out later if you express opinions contrary to their credo. If you go in with guns blazing, they'll return fire and you'll be worse off than if you had ignored them."</i>
Oh, I think manipulation is the human endeavor. I'm just exploring the possibilities. As for blazing guns, a loud noise will gather more attention than will a whisper. It often opens an honest window into those around you.
Anyway, I liked your input. Thank you.
<i>"If they're hicks, talk about trailer parks and inbreeding"</i>
Hmm...another tribe?
ripleofdeath
04-10-01, 11:08 AM
i must start by saying wow...
someone prodding an issue that i belive to be a "core issue"
- i cant remember who said what exactly so...
my credentials... :) i dont have any friends :)
i think and belive that i participate in some sports for my own enjoyment... and the better i get the more i can enjoy it.
my op ... is some people are born with less ability than others and then seek to be better in reaction of the un-informed childs teasing. please dont start talking chicken or egg or you will be bound to catatonic thought :) ......... cos we are here now!
most of us have an ilnes of sorts and most think illnes
is abhorrent and to be outcast to preserve the genes(the beast)- some are nothing more than the beast
or so they belive.
the baggage we carry colours our world and so we never agree on, the colour of the curtains :)
- browser... if you want to work on the engine of a train you have to be where it stops...for enough time to do the job.... :) hint!
teachers are the problem that cant be solved by people who cant see the true colour of the curtains....
if ya get my point
1: HOW TO.. OF how to make pies in a sausage factory
a. make room for new machine... or rent space so you have room for THE NEW MACHINE..... because most people think..."well i feel powerless and yet i can buy my chocolate, so why should i not have my chocolate so others can steal the bread i buy for others"
thats all for now ... i need sleep to help climatise myself to THE SOCIETY IM FORCED TO INTERACT WITH..to achive the things i want and seek/hope to achive..."like"?...you ask,
we dont need to fight and most dont need to be sick
and there has always been and will continue to be enough food for all...ok ok.
one last thing.... a thing i made up when i was 20 years old.
A GOOD FARMERS JOB IS TO...
the grass(people) the cows(industry) the shit(money)
a good farmer spreads the shit over the whole paddoc
so all the grass can grow well.
humans scrape the shit in to big piles and sit on it as it burns everything underneath and the rest of the paddoc suffers..oh and what a great view from the top
LOL
ps thats copy rite and ill tract down anyone who copys it to make money(the animal speaking)
groove on
Hey, that was fun! You forgot to mention the sh.t sandwich. Y'know, the more bread you have, the less sh.t you must eat.
And $20 mil will buy you a trip to the international space station.
Serious now. Yes, we live in our own filth. Even when we try to clean up our mess, we create another (communism).
Well now, with that thought, I'm going to bed.
About the tribe thing concerning stupid people; I refer to this quote-
"You can't start a movement of more than five people without at least one fucking idiot."
---Kim Stanley Robinson (Green Mars)
ripleofdeath
04-17-01, 08:55 PM
one thing that i have come to belive in my years of studying people is that ...
"there are a majority of idiots and perverted thinkers"
look at all the religouse factions that tell the others they are wrong because they dont agree.
when they say that most religouse people are supposed to forgive????????????????????????????????
RELIGON AS WE KNOW IT IS THE CURSE OF OUR WORLD
groove on all
if we cannot possibly image the "idea" how can it be wrong?
:D
<i>"You can't start a movement of more than five people without at least one fucking idiot."</i>
It requires a group of idiots and someone to lead them. There are no individuals.
ripleofdeath
05-04-01, 10:19 PM
:D
thnx browser made my chukle
groove on
Hmmmmmm. The basics of life. The herd instinct if you will. From food gathering and hunting era no less. Easier to survive in a group than as an individual. To be thrown out of the group is tantamount to an execution sentence unless the ostracized can find another group to become a member. Behavior ingrained into the brain, as a survival factor. Now modern human doesn’t quite know what to do with this old relic. It just doesn’t fit anymore. A driver with no recognizable survival trait left. So do we outlaw public gatherings of more than, say 5 people? Or, stigmatize a certain behavior as barbaric throwback and penalize anyone who displays what ever it is we’re against? Hitler had some ideas on that subject. He called them Jews. If there is a group who gathers because it sees this subject one way, there will be another who doesn’t agree and will see it another, making their own group.
Sex, the drive to spread one’s seed, or to reproduce and continue the race. Another basic drive of all life. Has no meaning other than continuation of that life’s form. And we spend a large amount of time preoccupied with the seeking of this goal. Especially as we first mature into adult. Grateful I am that birth control was developed or we might be knee deep in our neighbor’s family by turning around where we stand.
Food? Necessary to continue life. Pleasure by another name. Americans enjoy more than they need as seen by the over weight epidemic evident throughout the society.
The guns blazing statement draws fire from much the same mentality. The stranger is threatening the security of the tribe. Only the tribe ain’t there anymore. But the individual still hackles and draws up to protect it. Out moded responses still with us. And yes, there will be that one who doesn’t quite fit the mold. I believe that was referred to as the idiot. The one who wants to be the leader of his own little group, who would like to start with the conversion of his immediate circle. Much to the annoyance of that circle.
You defined very well the human animal and the roots of human impulse. A curious thought is to explore the possibilities had those impulses been absent from our nature. The energy which those impulses invoke has, I believe, produced our evolution.
I also believe that, as a whole, the idiots are becoming wiser. Maybe in the distant future there will be no need for manipulation of small and large groups, and maybe leaders will become obsolete. In the distant future...maybe.
There is a hilltop near here which I often visit. It offers a vista of my city below. My local group seems very small from that vantage. If I could speak to all of it, what might I say...
Hmm.
I think to explore the lack of these factors would not be an ends to a means.
After all, they are survival factors. And the opposite of survival….well you get my drift. So in that sense, yes, they have certainly affected our evolution. We’re the most dominant species on earth. The largest, most effective, impulse has been the flight or fight reaction. Proven over and over to have survival traits.
I’m not too sure I agree with the idiots getting wiser. Maybe better educated, but not wiser. Look to any group and you still see the same things going on. …and not necessarily isolated to any one group. We still steal, kill, rape and pillage, though it had any number of names and labels to put on it. If you raise the standards of the group then idiots still shake out on the bottom of the curve.
We now have another hillside to look from afar. Though not as many people visit it. Its called LEO (low earth orbit) and the sights are supposed to be fantastic.
ripleofdeath
05-05-01, 07:14 PM
approved parenting is the only answer!
why should it be the rite of someone to ill raise a child?
and pervert there mind and make another problem for the universe?
if someone wants to have children they should have to go to parent school!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you cant get a job picking up rubbish these days without a degree(euthinisism)
so why is the most important job of all time...BEing A PARENT not have any compulsory training and more importantly guidence?
compulsory birth control should be a BIG issue !
BUT how can rich people [in there own tribe] have slaves if there are not mentaly perverted children from subjegative enviroments being pumped out like a commodity?????????????????????????????????????
:(
thoughts?
groove on all
It has been long noted that one of the most important functions in our lives does not come with a how to guide or an owner’s manual. Bringing up children. How sad.
Getting all to attend such is a problem. Unless the laws of nature can be revoked to say No school, then no sex, no baby, no opposite sex then all will be just rhetoric.
ripleofdeath
05-06-01, 07:18 AM
hey wet1 :)
im not sure i follow the coarse of your thought
my thought would be
no opersite sex, no sex, no babby, no school...?
but this seems a little ???????????????????
ummmm
fatal-istic...?
are you saying you think we cant or are you saying you think it is a big problem that may be solvable?
?
i must admit im a bit of a fatal optermist in somethings yet i state (to my self) sometimes that i belive there is no hope for some people.....?
what an internal conflict... :D
i also have a 'current' opinion that we have alot of people with very inferior minds/genetic(maybe small and inconcequential in a perfect enviroment) make-up!
my CURRENT opinion... i re-iterate!
...or more precisely the fight to maintain and gain
inspite of anyone or thing may be soo strong that it overides the personal development of those who are predisposed to such(certain) primative instincts.
one of my main passions in life is to study the psychological reasoning of the human race... :D
and in doing so i have come to quite a few conclusions which do sound very extreem to alot of people.....!
it also mannafests in alot of personal conflict which i have worked on for years and are only now (at the age of 30) starting to get to grips with.... :)
and i would... at this point in my life and travels...say...
that most people desire to "get along" with all others,
BUT they have a resasoning and self protective code of proceedure...
THIS CAN BE ALTERD
it requires very intense understanding of the situation as it stands rather than an understanding of (taught) psychology.
a behnevolent dictator is the only way to advance in an expediant manner.
BUT we need a HIGHLY ETHERCAL "hit squad" that can
purge the tarnished few that hold such power and would rather die than disseminate it.
these people are very dangerouse and too most succesful intelegent people.
i would... however feel GREAT pitty for those with the task to terminate them because i think taking a life is something to be avoided at "most" costs, but unfortunatly there are many who will perform any killing for low cost :(
what a tangled web has been woven!
continuetive question.... if by genetic manipulation we could alter the "spider/fish/lizzard/bird/human/...?"
to only eat vegetables should we do it?
this questions a base core of principals that few "TRIBES" have been able to comprehend and follow with any level of consideration... (in what limited history) of some cultures i know of .
enough for now :D
groove on all
peace...love...and missery to all greed merchants.
I think that in reality, I’d have to come down on the side of we won’t. Doesn’t take a lot to make babies. Just a partner and a little time. To alter the course of nature human at least would require more than I think we will be willing to do.
To get along is to me a goal that is highly admirable. Takes years in some cases to even develop the knack ability and desire. More power to you!
ripleofdeath
05-06-01, 06:08 PM
cheers :)
i feel compelled to warn the emotionaly tetering (that might visit this thread) that you should not try this unless you have a strong hold on your own character...cos it is more likely to conclude that one should join the week and as they say "go with the flow"..."muck in"... "get back down to earth"...
"stop fantasising"..."get real"..."get a grip"...
"wake up"..."get a life"..."dont be soo paranoid"...
and all the other statements that are used to outcast the person that might confront the power crazzed idiots that want you to be a "monkey see-monkey-do"
ITS NOT THAT WE 'ARE'... AS MUCH AS WHAT WE "are CAPABLE OF"!
SSssiigghhh.
groove on all :)
Good point. Afraid I'm just as guilty as the next in the unguarded and frivolous use of some of those adjectives. It is not that I want agitation, it’s that I don’t always engage brain before mouth starts running.
Soooo…down the line someone will think I’m purposefully being mean or insensitive to his or her feelings. In this you definitely have a point! As is said, Don’t try this a home!
More than not in some of these discussions is the need to have an opinion rather than to be scientifically accurate. To be steady in those opinions as opposed to changing and being wishy-washy as the winds blow. Yes, I know this is a science forum so it is not to be ignored. I've have been called to task for those things what were not accurate. But I'm not a scientist. I have neither the background nor the education. You work with what you have.
Now, back to the thread. I don't think that it is we're not capable of these changes. I think that we simply won't make them. It is more important to the third world farmer to have children who can help him in the field than it is to not have kids so as to not muck up the enviroment. If you can't afford a tractor, you do with what you have.
ripleofdeath
05-07-01, 02:52 AM
yo wet1
:)
by no means was i implying you in the
dont try this at home thought!
i did get your point about your thoughts and just thought i would try and cover an angle i had only just thought of :D
i think we all do things from time to time that contradict our own belife systems...in small ways as such
and so the nessecity to say "im sorry i was wrong"
is one missed by the major offenders i think...
sometimes it has taken me a day or two to get back inline but i always(now) try to make it known that i belive i 'was' wrong...
maybe i should start a new thread
called : should i say "im sorry"...
yes a bit cheeky but you gotta wonder sometimes :)
groove on all
ripleofdeath
…nor did I take it as such. Still the words said have the same power of meaning. Nor does an admission of ones’ character alter by what someone else thinks or does not think. As to contradiction, happens all the time. To some more than others, as personalities differ, which leads to some being more, shall we say, stable and enduring in their thoughts and actions.
It seems the longer I stay in this thread, the farther I wander from the topic. Not that I’m against wandering but instead the mind does not continually focus upon the point.
Anyway, While it may be possible for us to alter our view of what should be after all this time of living because it has shown the human animal that this is the way to live and continue as successful species it is doubtful in my line of thought that such would ever become a line of practiced behavior. Any species who tried such without long and careful deliberation upon the consequences of such acts would soon find that the very acts that led it to overcome could be bred out of the race and hence lead to its demise. Not a desirable survival trait for intelligence to fool with.
"But you recognize how people gather in groups? Like-minded in their opinions and customs, people form common bonds, and the individual often seeks approval by participating and by conforming to the expectations of the tribe."
Bowser,
Do you not think too that people gather in groups to survive? Just think of the old war vet.s whose fondest memories are the battles they, and those who they bonded with under fire, shared.
Often the only commonality, the only `like-mindedness' if you will, is the situation they have found themselves in by the randomness of the fates - and survived.
<i>"Do you not think too that people gather in groups to survive? Just think of the old war vet.s whose fondest memories are the battles they, and those who they bonded with under fire, shared.
Often the only commonality, the only `like-mindedness' if you will, is the situation they have found themselves in by the randomness of the fates - and survived."</i>
I think you have something there, but that only explains the survival mode during times of danger. What of those who are under no threat, but comform to group expectations nonetheless?
Might not that be a part of the current problem, Bowser? A sort of free-floating anger for which there is no hook, no survival need to help dissapate it? A road-rage, prejudice, we-them, 'Kill them all and let God sort it out' mentality that is the antithesis of the tribal cohesion?
ripleofdeath
05-30-01, 09:07 PM
just a thought
the tribe can operate on a democratic bassis but one person may feel they want to override the group law or beliefe so that one
goes and trys to make there own group through a lack of ability to communicate or because of the groups inability to comunicate effectively.
all diversions are a form of sickness which is mearly reinforced by like sufering people or groups.
we are only now touching on thetrue nature of mental ilnes
and with it comes the reality that most have one sort or another.
now we can treat these conditions it is no longer ness to kill or outcast the opposition to the group consensus regardles of which beliefe carrys more trueth or promis.
just a little thought :D
groove on all tribe ------ an intellegent form of advancement through interactive co-operation to achive greater goals for one and all!
Sethmac
05-31-01, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by rde
Sorry for going off like that. I'm better now.
I wouldn't say are activites are the evolution of more basic motivations; rather the remnants thereof. Sex remains an overriding preoccupation with most, despite the fact that there's no need (as far as the species is concerned). Food is pretty much the same option as your new one; security by any other name. I'm not working right now specifically so I can buy a pizza this evening, but I doubt I'd be here if I didn't want the money. As for the image thing: that's your weak link (IMO). Sure, there are people who care about the opinions of idiots[0], but I refuse to believe they're in the majority.
[0]When I say 'idiots' I mean, of course, muppets, gobshites, idiots, goths, creationists... basically anyone unknown to the principal.
Sethmac
05-31-01, 12:51 AM
I have read most of the posts on this thread and I am sorry to say that I am above all disapointed... and worse saddened by your words. If there was absoultly no reason to be here then I think that we would not exsist at all. Everyone is here for a purpose... and if you don't belive that, then I feel sorry for you all. We have just chosen not to listen to it because it would be to hard or would be too much work. When you say that there is nothing to live for or accomplish that we are here by nature or by mistake or, that we are just animals or we are here for our own enjoyment that just wrong. I refuse to belive it, I won't belive it! Everyone of you have a purpose, big or small you have a destiny, but I belive that you have a hold of your destiny. We as humans a an advantage over all other spiecies on the planet. We have selfcontrol, we are given choices and the outcome of those choices could change the world! If you don't belive me that is fine, but I tell you the truth that people thought Albert Einstien was retarded and was not very popular in his day... but now he is seen as one of the most intelligent man to this date! Now we may all not be as smart as him but we ALL have the power to change the world.. the choice is up to the people that are still here. Religious or Not we all are a part of a changing world that can not exsist with out us or other spicies on this planet. The end is only near if we say it is...!!! NEVER GIVE UP... NEVER SURRENDER...er in the words of Tim Allen..
I am sorry I don't mean to preach... but I am very passionate about this subject..as you can see..
Peace all
Sethmac
<b>Chagur</b>
<i>"A sort of free-floating anger for which there is no hook..."</i>
Don't you mean <i><b>"...for which there is no release."</i></b> As I see it, a civilized world doesn't provide any chew-toys for the animals in the yard, with the exception of sporting events and wars.
<b>ripleofdeath</b>
<i>"we are only now touching on thetrue nature of mental ilnes
and with it comes the reality that most have one sort or another."</i>
I would rather believe that <b>all of us are crazy.</b>
<b> Sethmac,</b>
Well, the world is a lonely place when life's only purpose is to eat, sleep and make babies. I'm with you, however. there is the larger life.
ripleofdeath
05-31-01, 08:31 AM
seth/bowser
so tell me how to stop the noise so i can hear the message?
seriousely!
no bull shit!
state a beliefe/concept/principal/method of practice.
T.M sindi?
T.M
golf? :D(jkg)
put something out there if not just for me then everyone.
if you say "go to church and prey" i will go to the shops and buy a dozen beers get very drunk and laugh at you for a few hours untill i start crying/ or pass out. :)
# im not trying to be smart or rude! im being seriouse about the give some advice thing.-(if you dont know...thats cool, no probs)
groove on all
<b>RD.</b>
<i><b>state a beliefe/concept/principal/method of practice</b></i>
Living is the only method of which I am aware. It's an individual experience, filled with ideas and possibilities. There's magic in your existence...life.
Yes, Bowser. That's what I meant, but didn't say ... just implied it. Thanks for picking up on it.
Sethmac: Why does there have to be a 'purpose'? I think Bowser got it right (even though the thought: 'Be fruitful and multiply' has been around for a while) and having a brew when it gets too heavy, or noisey, isn't a bad idea, Ripleofdeath.
Ripleofdeath
I find it kind of uncomfortable trying to imagine a 'democratic' tribal experience. The closest I came to it, an erzatz 'it', was at a commune what was trying to go tribal.
God what a mess ... but at least the dope was good.
ripleofdeath
05-31-01, 11:19 PM
:)
hey all
chagur-
so do you suggest the idea of sigle ruler ?
as the only practicable method of hinesight?
#note how the most intelegent people never get involved in politics! :)
LOL
kinda makes me wonder.......?
#current law and order of the tribe only seems to benifit the most perverted and fattest of fat cats.
justice has been set up to be perverted by the rich!
the tribe are now the playthings of the rich outcast mentaly ill people who foster their sickness in their family of wealth.
so THE TRIBE as a concept no longer exists in most western countrys.
and is actively destroyed by western govts and church groups around the world. it has seemed to be the case for hundreds of years.
note comparrison of modern western medicine health care in usa with native american indian(no they did not transplant hearts as i am aware) but how many cancer and accute ilnesses are now being treated with things that some of the eastern and native american indians were using a few hundred years ago!
kinda makes me LOL sometimes.
groove on all :)
ripleofdeath,
It seems to me that we are locked into a feeding frenzy--dog eat dog. Some of us, however, have larger appetites than others, maybe?
ripleofdeath
06-01-01, 07:15 AM
:D funny but sad :(
do you think that that is some part of human nature?
i have not had any formal training in socioligy but have spent hours upon weeks/years pondering this to the ends of -
is this natural? is it normal to want more than one can achive through honourable means?
can we override this or cure it as a disfunction?
breaking news on my tv new video by tool :D
they are somewhat of profit natured musicians i think :D
FREAKY SHIT MAN! i just watched the new tool vid
i recomend u watch it(symbology) :)
its nice to see real issues coming back to art/music and maybe soon the world????????????????
who knows!
if we could only look past the hate of what we fear and, the fear of others that fosters their hate.
ooooooppppppps im seing cycles again :/
maybe one of the best adverts for boilogical life term(the inability to continue the cycle of abuse in the 'first person')
may we all try and cure the second and third :D
groove on all .............thoughts?
<i>"do you think that that is some part of human nature?"</i>
I dunno, it depends on the individual and their perspective.
<i>"i have not had any formal training in socioligy but have spent hours upon weeks/years pondering this to the ends of "</i>
Nor have I, but how can it be ignored?
<i>"is it normal to want more than one can achive through honourable means?"</i>
Honorable means...that really doesn't apply in a capitalist system, a system which encourages competition for profit.
<i>"can we override this or cure it as a disfunction?"</i>
I'm afraid not. Few of us woud be satisfied with just the comforts of life. We are consumers.
<i>"if we could only look past the hate of what we fear and, the fear of others that fosters their hate."</i>
We would be left without a purpose.
so do you suggest the idea of sigle ruler ?
as the only practicable method of hinesight?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking from a somewhat limited experience with Native Americans, primarily Navajo and a bit with Pueblo and Lakota, and having gotten into discussions with a few elders, I'd say that 'ruler' is a concept that to this day is difficult for them to understand. 'Leader' in the sense of one who is best qualified to offer suggestions to the tribe and, when necessary, make decisions after having conferred with the tribe's shaman, and in the case of some tribes, the elder females who tended to live longer than the males and have a long memory line (greater database), would seem to be more appropriate. Something like Ghandi's "There go my people, and I must follow them; for I am their leader" (I hope I didn't mess the thought up too much).
One of the most frustrating experiences to date was standing by while three tribal elders came to a decision as to whether or not the horse that had possibly broken a leg and was still stuck in the cattle gate it had tried to cross should be put down. It took them three hours to decide that yes, the leg was broken, the fracture was a bad one; and that the horse should be put down. If I'd had my weapon with me I would have made the same decision in a few minutes. But then, it wouldn't have been the Navajo way.
a true democratic ruling of the leading members of the tribe. Reminds me of our representation in Washington. Only at least the cheifs did come to a decision in the end. One that made sense, accounted for the condition, and a resolution of some kind with a reasonable outcome. And if it had taken 3 months (poor horse) instead of an afternoon, it would still be speedy as compared to our government. They couldn't even say we will have a raise! Fearing voter backlash, it was decieded that if no one said nay then it would pass automatically without anyone voting from then on. Where is our representation in that? Or the speed for that matter as it took a couple of sessions to even get the ball rolling to do such.
It wasn't that either, Wet1.
It was more like a decision made based on consensus. I think that if all three of the elders hadn't come to agreement, not a majority rules type of thing, that horse would have died of starvation. And they weren't leaders, they were just three of the elders that had to deal with the problem because they were the ones on the scene, so to speak. And it wasn't a ruling either, it was a decision as to what had to be done - they were the ones who decided and they were the ones who acted on their decision.
As I said, the Navajo way.
I see. The Navajo way, this is something that I have no experience in. If you wish, please expand. If you wish not to post in public and it is not to forward then send me an e-mail. Call me curious. This is outside the realm of my experience (Native American culture) and I wish to understand. I mean do the elders speak for the tribe after a decision is made or do the elders simply ignore the tribe and do as decided? Is their decision explained to the others of the tribe before or after the action following the decision or is the explaination ignored as simply not necessary?
"The Navajo Way" isn't exactly something I've been ... like into.
It's just the my way of expressing that there is a difference and I was fortunate enough to have a friend living and working on the reservation for a few years with whom I could crash with once or twice a year for a few weeks. You know, like have some time off, swing a leg over the old cycle and a few days later be in a place most Anglo's don't have contact with except maybe passing through.
It's like realizing I was making the other person uncomfortable by keeping my eyes on them during a conversation - that isn't the Navajo way.
Or that you don't refer to someone who has died by the name they were known by when they were alive - that isn't the Navajo way.
Stuff like that. And like going to the Navajo Nation fair in Window Rock where many tribes had gathered and being on one side of the fairgrounds and realizing that I was hearing the merry go round on the other side of the fairgrounds ... even the kids were quiet.
Or seeing how proud the WWII Navajo Code Talkers were of having served a country that shit on them ... and still shits on them.
I guess that's all I mean when I refer to the Navajo way.
I don't know if that helps any. And remember too, my experience wasn't a tribal one ... rather a Rez (reservation) where the old ones still remember the way it was ... and the young ones, for the most part, don't want to hear it.
OK, I can see the youth rebellion thing as I guess to some extent we all go through it. The adults don't know crap and the youth of the world have it all. Only now I'm on the other side of the fence and come closer to knowing very little. And asking a lot of questions because of it.
And yes, that is strange...not to refer to those who have passed on by name.
I understand the thing about being proud to do what others could not, such as the code talkers, even though the treatment before and after did not reflect that importance.
Again, that's not quite the way I experienced it, not as youthful rebellion ... at least not in the way it's commonly experienced in our culture. There usually is still respect for the old ways, the ways the old ones knew ... lived. It's more of a matter of it being irrelevant, not appicable to the way the world now is.
I've often wondered if the high incidence of alcoholism and suicide on the Rez, and even higher off the Rez, isn't related to feeling that 'once we were men' and that now ... Some of the old ones still live in hogans, most of the young ones live in house trailers (if they live on the Rez).
The one light is that for some of the young there is a renewed interest in the old ways, the language of their people, the way things should be. But for too many it's alcohol.
Sorry, I shouldn't be running on like this.
I said that I was curious. And that I am. I have heard there was a higher incidence of alcoholism. If you cage that which longs freedom and add demeaning conditions by attitude of those surrounding the area but not part of it, those within (it would seem) would suffer self-esteem.
I have a bit of a problem with that.
Consider what happened to the Japanese and Chinese Americans, particularly to the Japanese in WWII, and they didn't get into an alcohol bag.
Give it some thought. The easy answers are sometimes the ones most distant from the reality.
Point well made and taken
ripleofdeath
06-02-01, 08:38 AM
hey all
chagur- is it possible they might have slipped past the listing of cultural grouping?
just a thought.
has anyone read 'the teachings of don won' by 'carlos castanarda'
sorry for any spelling mistakes!
the suicide thing is something i have thought about allot!
i wonder if there is a certain threshhold of where a person might
understand the ways of the world and feel no point in continuing?
particularly in youth! continueing to drugs and pregnancy and crime?
-point of view(mine)-the tribe has gone so these issues are not addressed in a family setting!
thoughts...?
groove on all :)
Hi all.
Rip, I'm afraid you've thrown me a curve. I don't understand your expression 'slipped past the listing of cultural grouping'. Could you please elaborate.
Ah yes, dear Carlos. I remember well the furior he caused with 'The Teachings of Don Juan' and a couple of subsequent books where he supposedly dug deeper in the the shamanism bit. Too bad he turned out to be a fraud - Don Juan never existed - It cast a shadow on cultural anthropology for a few years. Still, his books are a good read as long as you remember he was a storyteller who passed himself off as a social anthropologist.
Suicide ... I'm not quite sure why. I can understand wanting to kill another, but self? It's incomprehensible to me.
Finally, youth and disaffection: About the best media treatment of it comes from down your way; a movie 'Once Were Warriors' about the Maori. It didn't get much attention stateside, and it's a shame. It was a really powerful look at the loss of tribal self ... and in many ways, as far as I'm concerned, appropriate to Native American malaise.
Hang in there.
ripleofdeath
06-03-01, 09:04 AM
hey all :)
chagur-hi- exp=do you think that the possiblity of drug problems with people=(japanese & chinese) from a result of the way they were treated could have been coverd up by the lack of cultural
identification as a group of the problem?.......make sence?
rather more mixed into the over-all population statistics?
in the last few years i have learned that new zealand had chinese slave labour in some of the south island gold mines!
im not sure of the exact time period but it was explained on a couple of tv progs that it was very normal for the time! :/
makes me sad to think there could be spin-offs of the traders down there....
we have several racist groups in new zealand
the most prevalent is 'black power' and 'mongrel mob'
it has been widely known that to gain entry to these groups one would have to rape or seriously assault someone and murder was a 'gold pass' as such.
we have a small faction of kkk in the south island but they are nothing on the black power or mongrel mob both those have vast
networks involved with tri-ad's and some well placed people in
govt departments. and some of our mebers of parliment are known to have ties to them!
with the cutting of our airforce attack planes it makes it unlikely that we can use 'their' convention's as a bombing target! :D
not good to hear about that carlos fraud :(
another smite on the populos perception! :(
i come from a background that is not too dissimilar to the psychology of the 'film' you mentioned and (havnt seen it/dont want to) only hope it can spawn some more thought of the real issue!
how many times has each one of us turned our back on a situation of abuse????????????????????????????????????
we must learn and teach ways to deal and combat these socialy distructive doctrines.
groove on all :)
Hi all,
I don't know, Rip. I'm under the impression drugs haven't been that much of a problem in the Asian American community and that the use of opium was sort of historic. As for the tri-ads, again, my impression is that they still have control and are not directly involved with the drug scene. It's too bad the mafia didn't stay clear of it too. And, I don't think a lack of cultural identification is an issue in the matter. I'd have to say, Asian Americans are still in closer contact with their culture than other ethnic groups, even the young ones, particularly the females.
Hey, what's with the big cutback in the military - that big a cost problem? From what I hear the Navy is being cut back quite a bit too.
Hell, I didn't realized we'd (the US that is) exported one of our more patriotic, god fearing, hate groups to your neck of the woods.
Hang in there, the best is yet to come.
ripleofdeath
06-04-01, 02:11 AM
hey all :)
well i dont think it is exclusively the usa as much as the people in the usa feel more comfortable expressing their biggotry!
as i think you would agree.
i have met quite a few people in new zealand that are extremely racist and from allot of different cultures!
it is not a black and white issue :) pun intended as not to be one!
i have never met a white, black, yellow or red person!
or grey that i remember :D
but if we need to make demons then we can change what others cant see to setup the fear ready to reject the different to maintain our fragile egos and worshippers :D
upgrading grunts! cutting all others!
cultural identity- i meant that the govt survey of the people in the usa might not have been designed to accept them as a cultural representation and maybe the stronger family ties of the eastern society helps the abuse to be more short term and less varied in drug type...???
u k ? (follow what i mean?)
# society Vs tribe now theres a thought ??? comments.........?
groove on all :)
Hi, you'all
I'd say they were more comfortable years back. Now-a-days, unless you're still living up in the hills, you give a nod to what's PC and only express youself freely with friends. But then, hasn't that always been the way in repressive societies (including most of the known world)?
And I think you hit it right Rip: 'I have never met ... a person', the operative word being 'person'. Even in the old South the 'house niggers' were treated differently from the 'field niggers' - you don't interact directly with the one group, your overseer (sometimes a Black) does. So how can you get to know them as 'persons'?
Aye, and we do need to create demons - how else would we feel justified in hating 'those others'? Just stick a lable on them, one that oft times makes them seem really different from us, and feel oh so comfortable hating them. After all, look at how different they are. But then, you wouldn't see that ... you're trying to see a person.
I think the saddest bit is the way we count our citizens every ten years. Good god! If you only counted heads how would you know how to draw the lines, how to color your pitch, and Balkanize the population?
I really think we/they is genetic, so who am I to disagree?
ripleofdeath
06-05-01, 07:27 AM
:)
he he................. good points.
groove on all :)
And so...the world turns.
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