The Definition of a Cult

[Emerald]

Below I have copied the eight characteristics of a cult, ironically from a Catholic web page, "<a href="http://www.goodcathinfo.com/ccarchdefncult.htm">The Definition of a Cult</a>". It was originally directed against Jehovah's Witnesses, but it appears to me as if the pot is calling the kettle black. Can anyone read this without thinking of Christianity, particularly the original Jesus cult, as described in the gospels?

<font color="red">In his definitive book on the subject, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, Lofton outlines the eight basic elements of mind control, whether they are used by political, religious or psychological cults.

<b>The first is "milieu" or environment control. Lofton explains that cults control the environment around recruits in a number of ways. most always using some form of isolation. They can be physically separated from society or they can be warned to stay away from media that might provoke critical thinking. Any book, movie, testimony or ex-members, or anyone critical of the group, in any way, is to be avoided.

The second element of mind control is "mystical manipulation." It is a systematic process planned and managed from above leadership. God is supposedly ever present in the organization. Leaders become mediators for God. God centered principles can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively so the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation. If one has not seen the light, and is not in the realm of the cult, one is in the realm of evil.

Lofton cites the "demand for purity" as another defining element. Such a demand calls for the radical separation of pure and impure or good and evil within an environment and within oneself. The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions. One's conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as good or evil depending on their relationship to the group. Universal tendencies of guilt or shame are used to influence or control individuals, sometimes in a structured confession process.

Lofton's fourth element is the "cult of confession." Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. Members are to be reported if found behaving contrary. The confession process has its own structure, usually the context of a small group. Sins could be caused by identification with one's prior existence. This tactic allows leaders from within to exercise authority over weaker or radical members.

"Sacred science" is the fifth operating characteristic of a "mind control cult". The cult's ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too "sacred" to be called into question, and reverence is demanded for the leadership. It claims absolute truth with no contradictions. Such a system can offer considerable security for the "searching" or vulnerable.

Sixth defining element is called "loading the language." Functional member vocabulary becomes simplified with the use of thought terminating cliches, expressions or words designed to end the controversy or conversation. They become the language of non-thought since they tend to stop discussion or prevent further consideration. There is always some simple cliche or slogan to answer a complex issue or difficult question.

Seventh operating characteristic of mind control is "doctrine over person." Human experience is subordinated to doctrine, no matter how profound or contradictory such experience seem to be. The history of the cult is altered to fit their doctrine of logic. The person is only valuable in so much as they conform to the role models of the cult. Common sense perceptions are disregarded if they are hostile to the ideology.

Lofton's eighth element of mind control is the "dispensing of existence." The organization decides who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. Leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders deceived for they are not fit to exist. </b></font>

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
Below I have copied the eight characteristics of a cult, ironically from a Catholic web page. It was originally directed against Jehovah's Witnesses, but it appears to me as if the pot is calling the kettle black. Can anyone read this without thinking of Christianity, particularly the original Jesus cult, as described in the gospels?
Pretty thorough quote.

The first is "milieu" or environment control. ... Any book, movie, testimony or ex-members, or anyone critical of the group, in any way, is to be avoided.
Christianity is off the hook on this one.

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. - 1 Corinthians 5:9,10

The second element of mind control is "mystical manipulation." It is a systematic process planned and managed from above leadership. God is supposedly ever present in the organization. Leaders become mediators for God. God centered principles can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively so the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation. If one has not seen the light, and is not in the realm of the cult, one is in the realm of evil.
Again, off the hook.

Remember them that had the rule over you, men that spake unto you the word of God; and considering the issue of their life, imitate their faith.
(Hebrews 13:7, ASV).

Christians are supposed to observe their leaders. If the leaders stray, no more following.

Lofton cites the "demand for purity" as another defining element. ... The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions. ... Universal tendencies of guilt or shame are used to influence or control individuals, sometimes in a structured confession process.
All of Christianity is based on a "personal decision."

Lofton's fourth element is the "cult of confession." Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. Members are to be reported if found behaving contrary. The confession process has its own structure, usually the context of a small group. Sins could be caused by identification with one's prior existence. This tactic allows leaders from within to exercise authority over weaker or radical members.
All of society works this way. That's why we have police.

"Sacred science" is the fifth operating characteristic of a "mind control cult". ... The ideology is too "sacred" to be called into question, and reverence is demanded for the leadership. It claims absolute truth with no contradictions. ...
Re: reverence for leadership.

Remember them that had the rule over you, men that spake unto you the word of God; and considering the issue of their life, imitate their faith.
(Hebrews 13:7, ASV).

Absolute truth beats wishy-washy uselessness any day.
As for contradictions, this forum is full of them, no problem there.

Sixth defining element is called "loading the language." Functional member vocabulary becomes simplified with the use of thought terminating cliches, expressions or words designed to end the controversy or conversation. They become the language of non-thought since they tend to stop discussion or prevent further consideration. There is always some simple cliche or slogan to answer a complex issue or difficult question.
You mean, like "An ye harm none, do what ye will"?

Seventh operating characteristic of mind control is "doctrine over person." ... Common sense perceptions are disregarded if they are hostile to the ideology.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:16

That verse doesn't mention doctrine.

Mental hospitals are full of people who are sane in their own common sense perceptions.

Lofton's eighth element of mind control is the "dispensing of existence." The organization decides who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. Leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders deceived for they are not fit to exist.

Your decision, ultimately...

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: - Deuteronomy 30:19

[Emerald]

Tony,

In regard to your remark about the thoroughness of my quoting, apparently you felt that I should copy and paste the page in its entirety? I stated that these definitions were originally being used against Jehovah's Witnesses, but since that wasn't where I was going with this, I left out all references to Jehovah's Witnesses. I did provide a link to the page, in case anyone wanted to read all of it for themselves, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I also disagree with the implication that I am part of a cult because I paste a portion of the Rede in my signature block. Having one basic tenet that is similar to one shared by almost all other religions is hardly evidence of a cult.

I would like to present a few passages from the bible to demonstrate that Christianity definitely qualifies as a cult, at least according to the Catholic definition:

<b>The first is "milieu" or environment control. Lofton explains that cults control the environment around recruits in a number of ways. most always using some form of isolation. They can be physically separated from society or they can be warned to stay away from media that might provoke critical thinking. Any book, movie, testimony or ex-members, or anyone critical of the group, in any way, is to be avoided.

<font color="red">2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in <i>them</i>; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean <i>thing</i>; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. </font>

The second element of mind control is "mystical manipulation." It is a systematic process planned and managed from above leadership. God is supposedly ever present in the organization. Leaders become mediators for God. God centered principles can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively so the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation. If one has not seen the light, and is not in the realm of the cult, one is in the realm of evil.

<font color="red">Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, <i>even</i> Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am <i>Christ</i>; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

John 10:30 I and <i>my</i> Father are one.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, <i>do</i> all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as <i>do</i> others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.</font>

Lofton cites the "demand for purity" as another defining element. Such a demand calls for the radical separation of pure and impure or good and evil within an environment and within oneself. The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions. One's conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as good or evil depending on their relationship to the group. Universal tendencies of guilt or shame are used to influence or control individuals, sometimes in a structured confession process.

<font color="red">1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators.

1 Corinthians 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. </font>

Lofton's fourth element is the "cult of confession." Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. Members are to be reported if found behaving contrary. The confession process has its own structure, usually the context of a small group. Sins could be caused by identification with one's prior existence. This tactic allows leaders from within to exercise authority over weaker or radical members.

<font color="red">James 5:16 Confess <i>your</i> faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. </font>

"Sacred science" is the fifth operating characteristic of a "mind control cult". The cult's ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too "sacred" to be called into question, and reverence is demanded for the leadership. It claims absolute truth with no contradictions. Such a system can offer considerable security for the "searching" or vulnerable.

<font color="red">1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that <i>spirit</i> of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.</font>


Sixth defining element is called "loading the language." Functional member vocabulary becomes simplified with the use of thought terminating cliches, expressions or words designed to end the controversy or conversation. They become the language of non-thought since they tend to stop discussion or prevent further consideration. There is always some simple cliche or slogan to answer a complex issue or difficult question.

<font color="red">Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind <i>and</i> one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls <i>to him</i> in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. </font>

Seventh operating characteristic of mind control is "doctrine over person." Human experience is subordinated to doctrine, no matter how profound or contradictory such experience seem to be. The history of the cult is altered to fit their doctrine of logic. The person is only valuable in so much as they conform to the role models of the cult. Common sense perceptions are disregarded if they are hostile to the ideology.

<font color="red">Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

Acts 5:2 And kept back <i>part</i> of the price, his wife also being privy <i>to it</i>, and brought a certain part, and laid <i>it</i> at the apostles' feet.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back <i>part</i> of the price of the land?

Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Acts 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Acts 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried <i>him</i> out, and buried <i>him</i>.

Acts 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

Acts 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband <i>are</i> at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Acts 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying <i>her</i> forth, buried <i>her</i> by her husband. </font>

Lofton's eighth element of mind control is the "dispensing of existence." The organization decides who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. Leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders deceived for they are not fit to exist.

<font color="red">Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in <i>yourselves</i>, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Luke 14:26 If any <i>man</i> come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 <i>Even him</i>, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.</font></b>

Emerald

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
In regard to your remark about the thoroughness of my quoting, apparently you felt that I should copy and paste the page in its entirety? I stated that these definitions were originally being used against Jehovah's Witnesses, but since that wasn't where I was going with this, I left out all references to Jehovah's Witnesses. ... I'm not sure what your point is.
Oh boy, I was actually complimenting you on quoting enough information to get a clear understanding of the point.
We may be on opposite sides of some things, but I certainly wasn't being sarcastic.

I also disagree with the implication that I am part of a cult because I paste a portion of the Rede in my signature block. Having one basic tenet that is similar to one shared by almost all other religions is hardly evidence of a cult.
Implications were not my intent.
I was attempting to get you to drop the facile politeness.
I realize that you are a thinking human being, and I'd like to hear your thoughts, but occasionally politeness gets in the way of communication.
I'd rather communicate with you, rather than the persona you adopt for society.

I would like to present a few passages from the bible to demonstrate that Christianity definitely qualifies as a cult, at least according to the Catholic definition:

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
This is all good stuff, amazingly from a person who is (correct me if I'm wrong) against the Bible. But I should remind you that this is all stuff you believe also.
If you weren't already married, I'd have a tough time believing you'd want to marry a hard-core, Bible-thumping, hellfire-preaching, tongue-talking Christian evangelist.

Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

More good stuff, but how is this proving mystical manipulation? Particularly Luke 21:8, which is basically warning us of the same thing you are warning us about.

1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators.
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Hey, what's happening here? Those are the verses I quoted for my point.
These verses are saying the same thing you would be saying, "Don't hang around with hypocrites."

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Another good quote. But doesn't that say "one to another?" It doesn't say "to a father confessor."

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I'm starting to feel ashamed.
You're doing a much better job of preaching the gospel here than I am.
Your point may be going by the wayside here, though.

Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Are you sure you're not a Christian?

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Wow, powerful stuff, isn't it? A person falls over dead after lying to God.
This doesn't sound like "doctrine," this sounds like real power from someone who supposedly doesn't exist.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

All I can say is "Wow." That was one heavy-duty sermon you just preached.

[Emerald]

Originally posted by tony1
Oh boy, I was actually complimenting you on quoting enough information to get a clear understanding of the point. We may be on opposite sides of some things, but I certainly wasn't being sarcastic.

Okay, I'll take your word on that - thanks! I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part.

Implications were not my intent. I was attempting to get you to drop the facile politeness.
I realize that you are a thinking human being, and I'd like to hear your thoughts, but occasionally politeness gets in the way of communication. I'd rather communicate with you, rather than the persona you adopt for society.

Apparently you consider politeness to be an unnecessary social artifice? Once again, we disagree. I've seen thinking human beings deteriorate into frothing lunatics when they drop the "facile politeness". Take a look at the 3 faces of ATHEISTHATER, for example. I may come across as being cold and distant, but at least my sanity isn't in question; nor am I forced to change my identity in order to continue posting in this forum. Whether or not the etiquette I display on this board is superficial, it seems to serve me well enough. In other words, if it ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it.

This is all good stuff, amazingly from a person who is (correct me if I'm wrong) against the Bible. But I should remind you that this is all stuff you believe also.
If you weren't already married, I'd have a tough time believing you'd want to marry a hard-core, Bible-thumping, hellfire-preaching, tongue-talking Christian evangelist.

You are correct - I am against the bible. You are also correct when you posit that I would not have married such an individual as you described, but not because of any dogma to which I might subscribe that prevents me from doing so. I simply couldn't get along with such a boor. Why do Christians need to be told who they should or shouldn't marry? I'm pretty certain that, given the chance, they are fully capable of figuring this one out for themselves.

More to the point, Christians are told to keep themselves separate from those who believe differently, so that they will not be tempted to start thinking for themselves. This is the mark of a cult.

More good stuff, but how is this proving mystical manipulation? Particularly Luke 21:8, which is basically warning us of the same thing you are warning us about.

The mystical manipulation is obvious. Jesus becomes the main authority figure for the group, and is claimed to be either God himself or a mediator between man and God (or both?), as well as the only path to salvation. Anyone who might cast doubt on the divinely appointed authority of Jesus is automatically labeled a deceiver who must be avoided or ignored. The true believers are the "children of light" - all others are the "children of darkness".

Hey, what's happening here? Those are the verses I quoted for my point. These verses are saying the same thing you would be saying, "Don't hang around with hypocrites."

I felt that those verses served my point better. One of the defining elements of a cult is the demand for purity and separation from those who are seen as impure. Christians are told to keep themselves as separate from these "corrupting influences" as possible, without going out of the world completely.

Another good quote. But doesn't that say "one to another?" It doesn't say "to a father confessor."

Allow me to requote a portion of the original statement: "The confession process has its own structure, usually the context of a small group." But one to another or to a father confessor - what's the difference? Shouldn't confessions be between the individual and his/her Creator only?

I'm starting to feel ashamed. You're doing a much better job of preaching the gospel here than I am.
Your point may be going by the wayside here, though.

Your misinterpretation of my point appears to be deliberate. What I'm trying to say here is that Christianity inoculates itself against unbelief by convincing its followers that 1) anyone who suggests that Jesus is not God incarnate or that he never even existed as a flesh and blood man is a deceiver and an antichrist (and is therefore a follower of Satan), and 2) they will go to hell for the crime of unbelief. In other words, the ideology is too sacred to be called into question and reverence is demanded for the leadership (Jesus).

Are you sure you're not a Christian?

Absolutely positive. Those verses I quoted are advocating the same mindlessness as sheep being led to the slaughter.

Wow, powerful stuff, isn't it? A person falls over dead after lying to God. This doesn't sound like "doctrine," this sounds like real power from someone who supposedly doesn't exist.

It sounds like the followers had better give their all to the cult, uh, church. Don't let this happen to you, brothers and sisters! Make your checks payable to the "Church of God and Mammon", and don't let us find out that you have anything left over. (How was that for dropping the "facile politeness"?)

All I can say is "Wow." That was one heavy-duty sermon you just preached.

Thanks - I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part.
See quote below...
Allow me to requote a portion of the original statement: "The confession process has its own structure, usually the context of a small group." But one to another or to a father confessor - what's the difference? Shouldn't confessions be between the individual and his/her Creator only?
This confession is as simple as the apology you made above.
Interestingly, I didn't feel the slightest need for apology from you, yet, very easily, almost without effort, you obeyed exactly what the Bible says to do.
BTW, thanks for the apology.
See below...
Apparently you consider politeness to be an unnecessary social artifice?
No. But sometimes, it is appropriate to drop artifice.

I may come across as being cold and distant, but at least my sanity isn't in question; nor am I forced to change my identity in order to continue posting in this forum.
Oddly, I haven't noticed the coldness nor distance.
You seem to be matter-of-fact and to-the-point, although biased against Christianity.

You are correct - I am against the bible. You are also correct when you posit that I would not have married such an individual as you described, but not because of any dogma to which I might subscribe that prevents me from doing so. I simply couldn't get along with such a boor. Why do Christians need to be told who they should or shouldn't marry? I'm pretty certain that, given the chance, they are fully capable of figuring this one out for themselves.
Well, maybe not.

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
(1 Corinthians 1:27, KJV).

You know this is true, because of all the complaints of foolishness.
All of the atheists, wiccans, etc. consider themselves (yourself?) to be much superior in intellect to Christians such as myself.
But God chose us specifically to confound you, to show you that superior intellect just doesn't cut it.

When your best-laid plans go mysteriously awry, when the things that should make you happy make you miserable instead, when things things that should be a blessing turn into a curse, then you'll know God is tapping you on the shoulder, reminding you there is a better way and you're not on it.

More to the point, Christians are told to keep themselves separate from those who believe differently, so that they will not be tempted to start thinking for themselves. This is the mark of a cult.
That would be the conventional wisdom.
Yet people complain because they've never heard such foolishness as I write.

So which is it? Christians can or cannot think for themselves?

The mystical manipulation is obvious. Jesus becomes the main authority figure for the group, and is claimed to be either God himself or a mediator between man and God (or both?), as well as the only path to salvation. Anyone who might cast doubt on the divinely appointed authority of Jesus is automatically labeled a deceiver who must be avoided or ignored. The true believers are the "children of light" - all others are the "children of darkness".
So your problem with this is?
1. You're a child of darkness who wishes to be considered a child of light?
2. You're a child of light who wishes to be considered a child of darkness?
3. You're a child of darkness who wishes to be considered a child of darkness?
4. You're a child of light who wishes to be considered a child of light?
5. None of the above?

I felt that those verses served my point better. One of the defining elements of a cult is the demand for purity and separation from those who are seen as impure. Christians are told to keep themselves as separate from these "corrupting influences" as possible, without going out of the world completely.
Interestingly, that verse says to quit hanging around with hypocrites, because if you quit hanging around with everyone that was a "corrupting influence," you'd have to leave the world.

Besides, in communicating with you, I must be one of the worst kind of Christians around, huh?

Your misinterpretation of my point appears to be deliberate. What I'm trying to say here is that Christianity inoculates itself against unbelief by convincing its followers that
1) anyone who suggests that Jesus is not God incarnate or that he never even existed as a flesh and blood man is a deceiver and an antichrist (and is therefore a follower of Satan), and
2) they will go to hell for the crime of unbelief. In other words, the ideology is too sacred to be called into question and reverence is demanded for the leadership (Jesus).

And, you are against this?
So, when atheism or wicca or goddess worship or satanism is called into question, that is bad, but when Christianity is called into question that is good?
Or Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism and Zoroastrianism can have specific beliefs unique to themselves, but not Christianity?

Actually, the feebler beliefs need such protection.
Christianity stands on its own, guaranteed by God who is well able to prove the truth of his word.

Those verses I quoted are advocating the same mindlessness as sheep being led to the slaughter.
You seem to be against people agreeing on something.
Apparently, if people agree on something, that is mindlessness.
But if they disagree, that is showing their individuality.

It sounds like the followers had better give their all to the cult, uh, church. Don't let this happen to you, brothers and sisters! Make your checks payable to the "Church of God and Mammon", and don't let us find out that you have anything left over.
They dropped dead because they lied about it.
It was theirs to do with as they pleased (verse 4), but they wanted to pretend to give it all.

How was that for dropping the "facile politeness"?
You're polite even when you drop your politeness.

Your bias is keeping you from seeing what the verses you quoted actually say.
Which is why I was so amazed at your choice of verses.
They are life to me, death to you.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2 Corinthians 4:3,4, KJV).

[Tiassa]

Tony1--

Two disclaimers:

1) Right now I am listening to an mp3 of Alice Cooper's I Love the Dead. I'm not sure why that's important; perhaps it will tweak my sense of humor. Maybe it's just the haze in here.

2) One of the philosophical walls I am hitting is that Emerald's citation speaks a very fundamental truth about human association in general. That is, I am an American; I think American thoughts; I assimilate data according to an American-bred template; my attitudes, styles, and personalities, myriad and diverse as they might be, all still center around the Cult of America in the sense that Emerald's citation describes. And other such ideas.

Your first response bears heavy tendencies toward even the basic psychology that I bothered to retain from high-school psych. (Don't get me wrong, I display that basic of patterns, too.)

Your third response proves Emerald's point.

Christianity is off the hook on this one.

You have achieved a rhetorical standoff, a stalemate, at best. Removing the rhetorical blinkers, what does a practical assessment of Christianity show you? (And Taliban be damned! but I simply never vote down a Muslim-sponsored censorship initiative on my local ballot ... and most definitely not nearly every year; it only comes up about as often as the Buddhist initiatives, Wiccan initiatives, and Hasidic initiatives.)

Christianity has two-thousand years of oppression on its conscience; thank God, though, that one's conscience can be absolved, eh? Although I can twist the Bible enough to point out that the day Christianity dies, that is, no longer occupies anyone's attention except as an historic curiosity ... yeah, I'll be happy to forgive it. ;) I mean, it's the year 2001, and Christian fervor still motivates human beings to hatred.

Emerald has me outgunned on the Bible, but I do submit the following disclaimer, regarding taken from a Catholic library on the web, regarding the work of Saint Clement of Alexandria:

St. Clement of Alexandria, Christian philosopher, (II/III Centuries): [READ WITH CAUTION: Although he is probably a saint (St. Photius, however, questioned this), Clement's writings reflect the influence of the Gnostics with whom he was constantly debating.]

Maybe I can enlist Stretch on this one, too. Because I'm puzzled as to why this disclaimer exists in the first place. Now, accepting all of the cults to which my thoughts most likely belong, it seems to me that the editors of the database, being so Catholic as to fit a stereotype (and this disclaimer fits a good many), are attempting to discredit the possible influence of the work. As valid as it is, it responds to Gnostic ideas, which lends credibility to said Gnosticism, and this was and is most unacceptable inasmuch as Catholocism is concerned.

Oh, the website ... http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/globalindex.html (have fun, Emerald ;) )

For the record, the same idea exists at other religious websites. Check http://www.newadvent.org , and you'll see the same phenomenon in the Early Church Fathers section. Many listed documents are noted SPURIOUS by the index editors. (Personally, it would be most interesting to witness the debates by which the Vatican decided that the works of this or that author should be officially Handled With Care; history shows that the Christian institution has evolved as a social beast only on necessity, and has never undertaken progress for progress' sake--though this can be said for most, if not all, of humanity; the point there becoming that if the greater Christianity cannot elevate humanity to meet God's standards, then what's the point of it other than sheer greed, but I digress ....)

Again, off the hook.

I retract an earlier statement. You have, with your attempted refutation of the second element, proven Emerald's point through demonstration.

Your response is a God-centered principle.

Christians are supposed to observe their leaders. If the leaders stray, no more following.

I'm going to have to ask you to demonstrate that historically. And as the generally observable rule of conduct, as opposed to the exception of circumstance.

I do not believe an historical basis exists which will justify your declaration.

All of Christianity is based on a "personal decision."

Thankfully Exosci is on the web. If it was a paper journal, we would have murdered entire continents' worth of trees discussing the personal decision of being Christian. It seems to me that the personal decision of being Christian equates, given the full weight of belief and acceptance, to the personal decision of ... well, to be honest, it's the equivalent of having a knife to your throat in a dark parking lot and knowing what's coming next. You choose to exchange for your life, as such.

Having made that comparison, I, for one, feel ill. Excuse me while I catch some fresh air and a cigarette ....

Better now, but to be honest, that's what it seems like. I remember being afraid of Hell. I remember being afraid. To be honest, after that initial hedonism, the liberation has meant that I prefer a certain version of right because it seems, simply, right. My criteria are fairly broad, but my version of right is selfish in that when people are fair to one another, nobody's taking advantage of me. But what's right to me is what seems, in my opinion, to be the most equitable for all the people I can conceive, and then some. It is a far cry from doing right because I am afraid of imagined alternatives.

Of course, I could be waxing on the wrong personal decision, so you also have the liberty of ignoring this section of my post.

All of society works this way. That's why we have police.

And I have never complimented your sense of humor; I have a good deal of appreciation for it.

Absolute truth beats wishy-washy uselessness any day.

Especially when you're not allowed to even think about the possibility that otherwise has possibilities.

Rather, A priori "truth" is easier to cope with than the adventure of discovery.

Such a God-centered principle, your response.

As for contradictions, this forum is full of them, no problem there.

That's okay ... nobody here is claiming to be infallible. At least, I don't think anyone is. Of course, nobody at Exosci is condemning me to Hell for thinking some of it doesn't make any sense.

You mean, like "An ye harm none, do what ye will"?

I speak nothing for Emerald here. But my own thought on the Rede is that it is an active concept, hardly a terminating cliche or slogan. Much like the Threefold Law, it works beyond itself. Where one must not limit Threefold to its proscribed triad, the point of it seems to be that if you can think of three bad things about it, you probably have some thinking to do. The Rede means one thing at all times, but how it manifests itself is constantly different, and always immediate. Would you leave a person to die? No. Would you leave that person to die if it meant not killing the other thirty people in your care in the process? Probably. Can you work out a medium? Maybe. That, truly, is both immediate and almost unnecessarily melodramatic.

An ye harm none, is, in my opinion, a distant cry from explaining that Daddy had to die because, God works in mysterious ways.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:16

That verse doesn't mention doctrine.

Mental hospitals are full of people who are sane in their own common sense perceptions.

And so are churches.

And so is my office.

And my house, to be technical. My cat even thinks she's sane.

Whosoever believeth in him ... well, there comes a hunk of doctrine. What does that mean, to believeth in him? Once you have a single answer to that question that you attempt to manifest apart from yourself--convention, law, edict, article of faith, ad nauseam--you have the beginning of doctrine.

If it was as simple as believing that Jesus was the Son of God, and that's all there was to it, then sure, even I would believe. But experience taught me that to believeth in Him included believing things which compelled me to actions and sentiments which I now believe are wrong. Not only incorrect, but morally corrupted.

There was really only one other thing I wanted to point out:

You seem to be against people agreeing on something.
Apparently, if people agree on something, that is mindlessness.
But if they disagree, that is showing their individuality.

You forget that Christians are required by doctrine--you know, that thing that happens when you try to figure out what it means to believeth?--to agree on certain things. Now that, good sir, is mindless.

thank you,
Tiassa :cool:

[tony1]

Originally posted by tiassa
Maybe it's just the haze in here.
In my preChristian days, I would have asked you to share some of that stuff.

After reading your post, I thank God, it is not my preChristian days.

One of the philosophical walls I am hitting is that Emerald's citation speaks ... other such ideas.
OK

Your third response proves Emerald's point.
Can you remember what it was?

You have achieved a rhetorical standoff, a stalemate, at best. Removing the rhetorical blinkers, what does a practical assessment of Christianity show you?
Nah. There's never a standoff.
That fire at the end of time will burn away any misconceptions along with whomever is holding them.

Emerald has me outgunned on the Bible, but I do submit the following disclaimer, regarding taken from a Catholic library on the web, regarding the work of Saint Clement of Alexandria:
Great. There is one other thing about Emerald.
She's at least shooting at the right target, the Bible.

Maybe I can .... digress ....)
Catholicism makes a great digression, but it doesn't believe the Bible is true.

I retract an earlier statement. You have, with your attempted refutation of the second element, proven Emerald's point through demonstration.

Your response is a God-centered principle.
I think I'm following your point. Whatever you, or Emerald, or you or Emerald, or you and/or Emerald or you or you, later, but not earlier is, yeah, the point, or, um, but I'm not. Yesss.

I'm going to have to ask you to demonstrate that historically. And as the generally observable rule of conduct, as opposed to the exception of circumstance.

I do not believe an historical basis exists which will justify your declaration.
Have you forgotten what "supposed to" means?
History proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christians are supposed to have observed their leaders.

It seems to me that the personal decision of being Christian equates, given the full weight of belief and acceptance, to the personal decision of ... well, to be honest, it's the equivalent of having a knife to your throat in a dark parking lot and knowing what's coming next. You choose to exchange for your life, as such.
So, your point is that it is not personal as a result? nor a decision?

Better now, but to be honest, that's what it seems like. I remember being afraid of Hell. I remember being afraid. ... It is a far cry from doing right because I am afraid of imagined alternatives.

Of course, I could be waxing on the wrong personal decision, so you also have the liberty of ignoring this section of my post.
Do you mean the cartoony, Dante's inferno version of hell?

And I have never complimented your sense of humor; I have a good deal of appreciation for it.
I humbly accept your lauds.

Especially when you're not allowed to even think about the possibility that otherwise has possibilities.
Who exactly is it that would not be allowing this?

Rather, A priori "truth" is easier to cope with than the adventure of discovery.

Really? Chew on this for a while.

... God is no respecter of persons:
(Acts 10:34, KJV).

The glass is half empty, and God stomps on everyone all the time, right?

Whosoever believeth in him ... well, there comes a hunk of doctrine. What does that mean, to believeth in him? Once you have a single answer to that question that you attempt to manifest apart from yourself--convention, law, edict, article of faith, ad nauseam--you have the beginning of doctrine.

If it was as simple as believing that Jesus was the Son of God, and that's all there was to it, then sure, even I would believe. But experience taught me that to believeth in Him included believing things which compelled me to actions and sentiments which I now believe are wrong. Not only incorrect, but morally corrupted.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(James 2:19, KJV).

You forget that Christians are required by doctrine--you know, that thing that happens when you try to figure out what it means to believeth?--to agree on certain things. Now that, good sir, is mindless.

Well, there it is, folks. Christianity demolished. What was I thinking?

Oh, I know, that thing you were to chew on for a while...
... God is no respecter of persons:
(Acts 10:34, KJV).

The glass is half full, and the best that could ever happen to any person, God can make happen for you.

[Lynx]

I totally agree with you, tony1

[tony1]

Originally posted by Lynx
I totally agree with you, tony1

*gears grinding*

You do?

Originally posted by Lynx
About six years ago, I questioned my faith in God, realized that I had no faith in God, and became an Athiest.
------------------------------------
Just thought i would share that the same thing happened here.

Well, the same thing didn't happen here.

[Emerald]

Tiassa~

Thanks for the link to the Global Index of religious documents - I found it most intriguing! The anti-semitic letters from Constantine were amazing! (What was it that Tony was saying about "toxicity"?) Anyway, here is one that sounded quite promising, but unfortunately the link was broken:

<a href="http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ai598/heaven.htm">Brigid of Kildare</a>, Irish abbess, (V/VI Centuries):
The Heavenly Banquet: Apocalyptic (and very Celtic) poem about drinking celestial beer in the New Jerusalem. O'Faolain translation. --- <font size="1"><b>Celtic Orthodox Page</b></font> :)

~Emerald

[tony1]

Say Emerald, you were off to a good start on Jesus and Lucifer both being morning stars. I am eagerly awaiting your point, since it looks like a fairly significant issue.

[Emerald]

Originally posted by tony1
Say Emerald, you were off to a good start on Jesus and Lucifer both being morning stars. I am eagerly awaiting your point, since it looks like a fairly significant issue.


Tony,

No, I wasn't saying that Jesus and Lucifer were both morning stars - I was saying that Jesus and Lucifer are both <i>the</i> morning star. But you knew that already. Apparently this is an insignificant point as far as you're concerned? Why not just admit you're a Satanist, and get it over with?

Emerald

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
No, I wasn't saying that Jesus and Lucifer were both morning stars - I was saying that Jesus and Lucifer are both <i>the</i> morning star. But you knew that already. Apparently this is an insignificant point as far as you're concerned?

Actually, I don't think it is insignificant, and neither do you.

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(Job 38:4-7, KJV).

There are many morning stars.

The significance as I see it, is that Lucifer had it pretty good, but he wanted more on his own terms. He thought he could challenge God, not understanding that challenge requires the ability to follow through.
He seriously underestimated God in this challenge, thinking, as many do now, that God is not much greater than he was, or that God couldn't, or wouldn't, do anything about the challenge.

[Emerald]

Originally posted by tony1
The significance as I see it, is that Lucifer had it pretty good, but he wanted more on his own terms. He thought he could challenge God, not understanding that challenge requires the ability to follow through.
He seriously underestimated God in this challenge, thinking, as many do now, that God is not much greater than he was, or that God couldn't, or wouldn't, do anything about the challenge.

You mean he wanted to be God? He wanted people to worship him? So God cast him out of heaven, down to the earth? Imagine that! Hmmm...why does this sound so familiar?

Emerald

[tony1]

Originally posted by Emerald
You mean he wanted to be God? He wanted people to worship him? So God cast him out of heaven, down to the earth? Imagine that! Hmmm...why does this sound so familiar?

Easy...

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
(Isaiah 14:12-16, KJV).

[Tiassa]

Lucifer only wanted to be one with God. I mean, when you're one with God, you're on the throne, above the stars, &c., &c.

Little hostile for the guy who runs Heaven, eh?

Let me further add, on edit, that this seems to be a pattern of God's:

Then the LORD God said: "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever." (Genesis 3.22)

Or ... the real reason man got kicked out of Eden.

--Tiassa :cool:

[tony1]

Originally posted by tiassa
Lucifer only wanted to be one with God. I mean, when you're one with God, you're on the throne, above the stars, &c., &c.

He missed the point...
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
(Isaiah 14:14, KJV).

God had something else going...
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(Psalms 82:6, KJV).

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(John 10:34,35, KJV).

Getting kicked out of Eden ties in pretty closely with doing it Lucifer's way...

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
(1 John 3:2, KJV).

We will be like Jesus when he appears, rather than when the serpent appears.

[HOWARDSTERN]

For those that are like unto the Lord shall go unto the lord, and those that are likened to the serpent and it's spewed deceit shall see nothing else and shall seek it utterly.

In other words, you have cast your own doom from the beginning, TIassa.

<i> " Funny Thing about faith"</i>

[Tiassa]

Don't you mean that God cast my doom from the beginning? According to the rules of that particular excuse for a God, there is nothing about my state of being that surprises Him in relation to the fact of my creation. There is nothing about this world that an omniscient god can complain about. Anything that does not satisfy God is directly God's fault, and thererfore His problem.

Just because God is scared of us is no reason to take it out on us.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

[tony1]

Originally posted by tiassa
There is nothing about this world that an omniscient god can complain about. Anything that does not satisfy God is directly God's fault, and thererfore His problem.
Odd, but true.
He makes you the way he makes you and says "do this."
tiassa says, "No," and gets bummed out when things don't work out.

Just because God is scared of us is no reason to take it out on us.
Us who?
Are you some kind of archon in charge of a legion of demons, or do you have a mouse in your pocket?

[Tiassa]

Us who?

Um ... us, the moss that grows in the forests of the north. :rolleyes:

God is afraid of the human race. We have eaten of the Tree of Knowledge, and become like him, and expelled before we could partake of the Tree of Life and thus become his equal. It's in your Bible.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

[tony1]

Originally posted by tiassa
God is afraid of the human race. We have eaten of the Tree of Knowledge, and become like him, and expelled before we could partake of the Tree of Life and thus become his equal. It's in your Bible.

Well, the god of this world is definitely running scared, but the Lord of Hosts certainly isn't.

At the point of knowing good and evil, God already said "as one of us"...

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
(Genesis 3:22, KJV).

He says it later, too...
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(Psalms 82:6, KJV).

The real problem is the Tree of Life thing...
Sin plus living for ever sounds like a pretty grim existence.
God was saving us from ourselves at that point.

Just picture your own situation...
Take the worst pains you've felt, add to that some of the existential angst you've experienced, add a hangover or two, add a pinch of forever and you've got the recipe for an existence no sane person would want.

[Tiassa]

The real problem is the Tree of Life thing...
Sin plus living for ever sounds like a pretty grim existence.
God was saving us from ourselves at that point.
That's a dumb answer on multiple grounds.

* God chose to endow humans as He did.
* God chose to not endow humans as He did.
* God chose to put the power of endowment in two trees in the Garden.
* God chose to lie to Adam and Eve.
* God knew, from "before creation", that humankind would fall.
* God still chose to go ahead and create.
* Thus, God is choosing to "save us from ourselves" because he chose this reality.
* God is "saving us from ourselves" because he apparently did not program us properly the first time.

I love infallibility in the sense that it is quite obvious that God either made a mistake, or has organized his Universe with an arbitrary bent that relies solely on his lack of self-esteem.

It reminds me of a parent who is disgusted at a child who has misbehaved by performing the given parental instructions to the letter. In the case of God, the parent is punishing the child because the parent is irritated that they, the parent, gave poor instructions.

Gee, I wonder where Western culture learned that archetype?

Well, the god of this world is definitely running scared, but the Lord of Hosts certainly isn't.

At the point of knowing good and evil, God already said "as one of us"...
So there's two different Gods in Christian lore? This is news to me.

Just picture your own situation...
Take the worst pains you've felt, add to that some of the existential angst you've experienced, add a hangover or two, add a pinch of forever and you've got the recipe for an existence no sane person would want.
Sure. And?

Just because someone hasn't yet gained the wisdom to avoid certain of their sins is no reason to forfeit their authority to govern their own lives. It is no reason to stop living and simply obey. It is no reason to assume a completely new reality and simply call misbehavior by the name of "glorifying God".

Just because someone hasn't learned all that they have set out to learn does not mean that they should numb their woes with religion and stop learning.

--Tiassa :cool:

[tony1]

Originally posted by tiassa
* God chose to lie to Adam and Eve.
What are you talking about here?
* God knew, from "before creation", that humankind would fall.
* God still chose to go ahead and create.
* Thus, God is choosing to "save us from ourselves" because he chose this reality.
* God is "saving us from ourselves" because he apparently did not program us properly the first time.

So, because God chose to make us limited, rather than unlimited, this is a problem?
I suppose the next problem you will identify is that rocks can't talk?
Since when is the creation of people supposed to have been the creation of a perfect, infallible species?

I love infallibility in the sense that it is quite obvious that God either made a mistake, or has organized his Universe with an arbitrary bent that relies solely on his lack of self-esteem.
Whose infallibility are you talking about?

So there's two different Gods in Christian lore? This is news to me.
There seem to be a lot of things in the Bible that are news to you.

There is one God and a lot of gods.

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
(Exodus 18:11, KJV).

Just because someone hasn't learned all that they have set out to learn does not mean that they should numb their woes with religion and stop learning.

Your suggestion is that marijuana is better?

I can't speak for others but I haven't had a lot of woes to numb, and I've noticed that learning goes better when there is a bigger picture to fit all the pieces into.

[Tiassa]

We'll be working slightly out of order this evening.

Whose infallibility are you talking about?
Are you suggesting that God can make a mistake? I would assert that mankind could only have fallen as it did in Eden because God wanted it to be that way.

Your suggestion is that marijuana is better?
Officially, yes. But I wasn't aware I had suggested that.

I can't speak for others but I haven't had a lot of woes to numb, and I've noticed that learning goes better when there is a bigger picture to fit all the pieces into.
I agree entirely! But why paint by the numbers when you can seek the true image? Why limit reality to the rules prescribed by one book (e.g. the Bible, the Koran, &c.)?

There seem to be a lot of things in the Bible that are news to you.

There is one God and a lot of gods.

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
(Exodus 18:11, KJV).
Sure. But you wrote:
Well, the god of this world is definitely running scared, but the Lord of Hosts certainly isn't.
Would you like to explain this cosmology?

So, because God chose to make us limited, rather than unlimited, this is a problem?
Humankind is only in a state of sin, thus necessitating the christos, by God's will. That's the only reason it's problematic. God is sending a savior to fix His own error. In the meantime, people are being punished by God for these very errors of creation.

I suppose the next problem you will identify is that rocks can't talk?
I never said that rocks couldn't talk.

I never claimed to understand a word they say, either.

Since when is the creation of people supposed to have been the creation of a perfect, infallible species?
It only becomes important when we consider that the Creator who created the imperfect species is allegedly punishing the creations for those very imperfections of design. Sure, they don't operate according to God's standards, but they operate according to their programming. Why, then, should God punish His creations for operating according to specification?

What are you talking about here?

Well, I'll start with Genesis 2.15-17:
15 And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise for pleasure, to dress it, and keep it.

16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat:

17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.
Are we all clear on this one?

4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. (Genesis 3.4)
I like throwing this one in because it merely demonstrates that the only honest immortal in Genesis is the Serpent.

14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and the beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee.

17 And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life.

18 Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou eat the herbs of the earth.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.

20 And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living.

21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.

22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken.

24 And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Genesis 3.14-34)
At no place does God carry out his threat. God lied.

I think I covered everything.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

[Emerald]

Tony,

Knowing how much you enjoy solving puzzles, I have a few more clues for you (do you sense another sermon coming on? ;) ):

Originally posted by tony1
Easy...

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

<font color="red">John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Revelations 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.</font>


how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

<font color="red">Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


Mark 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.</font>

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

<font color="red">Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.</font>


Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

<font color="red"> Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Revelations 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Revelations 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelations 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelations 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


Revelations 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelations 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelations 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelations 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Revelations 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelations 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Revelations 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelations 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Revelations 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelations 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Revelations 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelations 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelations 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelations 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelations 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Revelations 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelations 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelations 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelations 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.</font>

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
(Isaiah 14:12-16, KJV).

<font color="red">John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.


Mark 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

Mark 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.


Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.</font>

I realize this is quite a bit of material to go through, but I hope you will read it all and consider the evidence. Before you respond, I would like to request one thing of you - please do me a favor, and drop the pretense that you have no idea what I'm saying. You and I both know differently.

~Emerald

[tony1]

Originally posted by tiassa
Officially, yes. But I wasn't aware I had suggested that.
It must have been the discontinuous thought patterns that did it.

Would you like to explain this cosmology?
the god of this world -- the Devil
the Lord of hosts -- God
running scared...
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(Revelation 12:12, KJV).

I never said that rocks couldn't talk.
And I'll never say that you can read, either.

It only becomes important when we consider that the Creator who created the imperfect species is allegedly punishing the creations for those very imperfections of design. Sure, they don't operate according to God's standards, but they operate according to their programming. Why, then, should God punish His creations for operating according to specification?
That's not what is happening.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
(Isaiah 1:18-20, KJV).

I like throwing this one in because it merely demonstrates that the only honest immortal in Genesis is the Serpent.
At no place does God carry out his threat. God lied.
I think I covered everything.

You missed a couple of things...

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
(Genesis 2:17, KJV).

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2 Peter 3:8, KJV).

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
(Genesis 5:5, KJV).

930 years is less than 1000 years, so he died that day, as promised.

Originally posted by Emerald
Knowing how much you enjoy solving puzzles, I have a few more clues for you (do you sense another sermon coming on?
...
I realize this is quite a bit of material to go through, but I hope you will read it all and consider the evidence. Before you respond, I would like to request one thing of you - please do me a favor, and drop the pretense that you have no idea what I'm saying. You and I both know differently.
Give me a bit of time to read this.

When I say I have no idea what you're saying, it is really for that particular moment.
I do know what you're getting at in general.

And thanks for looking up all this stuff.

[Tiassa]

It must have been the discontinuous thought patterns that did it.

Hell, as long as we're generalizing, are you taking microdot or liquid? You haven't stopped hallucinating for weeks.

Such as this: the god of this world -- the Devil
the Lord of hosts -- God
running scared...
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(Revelation 12:12, KJV).
Sounds like a religious delusion in lieu of independent thought.

And I'll never say that you can read, either.
I'll ask Howard for lessons.

That's not what is happening.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
(Isaiah 1:18-20, KJV).
Again, you're substituting a religious belief as reality--ergo, delusion at best--in lieu of any personal reflection. How does it feel to not have to feel? Or are we hedging on impossibility paradox again?

You missed a couple of things...

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
(Genesis 2:17, KJV).

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2 Peter 3:8, KJV).

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
(Genesis 5:5, KJV).

930 years is less than 1000 years, so he died that day, as promised.
On the one hand: Woo-hoo! You did it! You finally strung together a reasonably coherent argument from nothing but Biblical snippets. I'd bake you a cake but I'm not actually that impressed.

My first question is one of context. The Chuck Smith Study Guide makes a simple note of 2 Peter 3.8 that seems to be less specific than you would attribute the phrase.God isn't bound by time, for He dwells in the eternal now (Revelation 4:8).
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/comm_read/984984217.html

In the sense that CSSG is regarding 2 Peter, it would seem that the effect intended by such an argument does not correspond to the specific context of which you employ it.

Your context is further undermined The David Guzik Study Guide, which notes:4. (8-10) Truths that scoffers deny but God's people cling to


a. In truth, we have little understanding of God's promise; what seems like forever for us is but a short time for God, just as an hour may seem an eternity for a child but a moment for an adult

i. Peter is not giving some prophetic formula, saying that a prophetic day somehow equals a thousand years; he is communicating a general principle regarding how we see time and how God sees time - great error has been fostered by using this verse as a rigid prophetic "key"

ii. He is quoting this idea from Psalm 90:4: For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night.

And it would seem that, even in 1871, some respected Christian scholars had cause to interpret the passage differently than you have presented it: one day .*.*. thousand years-- ( Psa 90:4 ): Moses there says, Thy eternity, knowing no distinction between a thousand years and a day, is the refuge of us creatures of a day. Peter views God's eternity in relation to the last day: that day seems to us, short-lived beings, long in coming, but with the Lord the interval is irrespective of the idea of long or short. His eternity exceeds all measures of time: to His divine knowledge all future things are present: His power requires not long delays for the performance of His work: His long-suffering excludes all impatient expectation and eager haste, such as we men feel. He is equally blessed in one day and in a thousand years. He can do the work of a thousand years in one day: so in 2Pe 3:9 it is said, "He is not slack," that is, "slow": He has always the power to fulfil His "promise."
* * * thousand years as one day--No delay which occurs is long to God: as to a man of countless riches, a thousand guineas are as a single penny. God's oeonologe (eternal-ages measurer) differs wholly from man's horologe (hour-glass). His gnomon (dial-pointer) shows all the hours at once in the greatest activity and in perfect repose. To Him the hours pass away, neither more slowly, nor more quickly, than befits His economy. There is nothing to make Him need either to hasten or delay the end. The words, "with the Lord" ( Psa 90:4 , "In Thy sight"), silence all man's objections on the ground of his incapability of understanding this [BENGEL].
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/comm_read/984985651.html

What I'm after is that I just don't think the argument you've constructed works. You're asking for a literal translation where common interpretation is not so literal. You're asking to justify the connection between two passages in a Hebrew story with a Christian advisory based on a song. I cannot view your interpretation of 2 Peter 3.8 as accurately representing the meaning of the words, and thus find that your construction failed. Ergo, it is still my opinion that God lied in Genesis.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

[tony1]

Emerald:

<HTML>
<P>First, we need to establish who is who.
These two verses establish that Satan is the Devil is the dragon is the serpent…

<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. </I>(Revelation 12:9, KJV).

<I>And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
</I>(Revelation 20:2, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>Satan is among the sons of God.
<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. </I>(Job 1:6, KJV).

<I>Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
</I>(Job 2:1, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>Satan <B><I>fell</B></I> from heaven (or was pushed).
<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
</I>(Luke 10:18, KJV).

<I>And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. </I>(Revelation 12:9, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>Others have also fallen or been cast down.

<B>1. Satan's angels…

</B><I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and <B>his angels</B> were cast out with him. </I>(Revelation 12:9, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>2. The <B>king of Tyrus</B>, who may or may not be Satan, but is the <B>anointed cherub</B> and the <B>covering cherub</B>.
<blockquote>
<I><FONT COLOR=blue>Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the<B> king of Tyrus</B>, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
…
Thou art the <B>anointed cherub</B> that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
…
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O <B>covering cherub</B>, from the midst of the stones of fire.
…
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will<B> cast</B> thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
</I>(Ezekiel 28:12,14,16,17, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>The awkward part is that Lucifer is actually the king of Babylon, since the section starts like this…

<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>That thou shalt take up this proverb against the <B>king of Babylon</B>, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! </I>(Isaiah 14:4, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>The proverb referred to here starts in verse 4 and continues to verse 23, with verse 22 again referring to Babylon…

<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from <B>Babylon</B> the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
</I>(Isaiah 14:22, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>In between the beginning and the end, i.e. in verse 12, is the reference to Lucifer.
The awkwardness lies in the fact that nowhere does it say that Jesus was the king of Babylon.

---------------------------------------------------
Re: <B>How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, <I>even</I> the Son of man which is in heaven.

</FONT>I'm guessing that your point here is that Jesus Christ and L are the same because they were both in heaven.
A careful read shows that L is <B>fallen </B>and Jesus Christ<B> came down.
Not the same person.
</B>
<FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

</FONT>Jesus Christ is from above, but so are all the sons of God.

<FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

</FONT>Of course, Eph. 4:7 &amp; 8 precede these two verses…

<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
</I>(Ephesians 4:7,8, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>showing that it is Christ who did the ascending and descending.

Also, Christ, in verse 10, is far above all heavens, whereas L in Is. 14:12 fell from heaven, not from far above all heavens.

<B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Revelations 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, <I>and</I> the bright and morning star.</FONT>

As the king of Babylon is nowhere stated to be the root and offspring of David, there really is no reason to think that the king of Babylon, or Lucifer, is <I>this</I> bright and morning star.

And again, there are many morning stars…

<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>When the <B>morning stars</B> sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
</I>(Job 38:7, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>&nbsp;
---------------------------------------------------
Re: <B>how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

</FONT>I'm guessing your point here is that the sword thing relates to weakening the nations, but it doesn't.
The sword isn't going to weaken the nations, it will destroy them.

<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, <B>because of the sword</B> that I will send among them.
Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
...(a list of nations)...
Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and <B>fall, and rise no more, because of the sword</B> which I will send among you.
</I>(Jeremiah 25:15-27, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT><B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Mark 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these <I>are</I> the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead <I>you</I>, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against <I>their</I> parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all <I>men</I> for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.</FONT>

Sorry, but I'm not sure what your point is here, but I'll guess that it is that this is an example of weakening the nations.

Verse 24 to 27 describe what is happening…
<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>But in those days, after that <B>tribulation</B>, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And <B>then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory</B>.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
</I>(Mark 13:24-27, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>This event is also described in Rev. 19…
<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called <B>The Word of God</B>.
</I>(Revelation 19:11-13, KJV).
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<I>And out of his mouth goeth <B>a sharp sword</B>, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
</I>(Revelation 19:15, KJV).

<I>And the remnant were <B>slain with the sword</B> of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
</I>(Revelation 19:21, KJV).
</blockquote>

</FONT>The sword will slay the nations, not weaken them.
Of course, this sword is the word of God…

<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>And take the helmet of salvation, and the <B>sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God</B>:
</I>(Ephesians 6:17, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>Again, <B>not the same person.

</B>---------------------------------------------------
Re: <B>For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

</B>Your general point in this section appears to be that, since exaltation and great and high and throne are mentioned in connection with both, this proves that both are the same.

Not so, since the one says, "I will" such-and-so, whereas the other is being told he will be such-and-so.
Most people can tell the difference between self-promotion and appointment.

<FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

</FONT>This says his name is JESUS, the other is called Lucifer.
To me, this is brain-dead obvious.
However, you seem to be of the opinion that this proves that they are the same even though they have different names?

You and I have different names, yet you won't argue that you and I are the same person.

<B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

</FONT>So, Lucifer wishes to exalt his throne above the stars of God, and Jesus will have to be satisfied with the throne of David, who was just a man.

<B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

</FONT>So, Lucifer wishes to ascend <B>above</B> the heights of the clouds, whereas Jesus is <B>in</B> the clouds.

<B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

</FONT>So, Lucifer wishes to be like the Most High, yet Jesus is saying that he is the <B>way</B> to the Father.

<B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and <I>to</I> my God, and your God.

</FONT>Lucifer is wishing to ascend into heaven, and Jesus ascends into heaven. If they are one and the same, why would Lucifer say, "I will?" If he were ascending, he would say, "I ascend" like Jesus did.

<B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive <I>and</I> remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

</FONT>This is great. Lucifer is saying "I will ascend," and Jesus is already coming back down.

<B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
John 10:30 I and <I>my</I> Father are one.</FONT>
Lucifer says, "I will be like the most High," thus proving he isn't.
Jesus is quite certain, and boldly says so.

<B>Not the same person.

</B>---------------------------------------------------
Re: <B>Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
</B>&nbsp;

<FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

</FONT>Your point appears to be that only one person ever goes to hell.
But, others go, too.

<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him <B>down to hell with them</B> that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
</I>(Ezekiel 31:16, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT><B>Not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Revelations 1:18 I <I>am</I> he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelations 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelations 9:11 And they had a king over them, <I>which is</I> the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue <I>is</I> Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath <I>his</I> name Apollyon.

</FONT>Your point with these three verses seems to be the key thing.

It appears that Jesus has the key of hell in chapter 1 and later, in chapter 9, we find that someone else has them, your point being that it isn't someone else, but the one and the same.

The issue is one of timing, but John gives us the timing.
<I><FONT COLOR=blue><blockquote>I was in the Spirit <B>on the Lord's day</B>, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
</I>(Revelation 1:10, KJV).
</blockquote>
</FONT>Thus, Jesus has these keys on the Lord's day, i.e. the great and terrible day of the Lord, not some Sunday afternoon in the 1<SUP>st</SUP> century AD.

Rev. 9:1 calls attention to the fact that the fifth angel is sounding when the fallen star <B>is given</B> the key of the bottomless pit.
Now, if the fallen star <B>is given </B>the key, then someone <B>else</B> had to have it before that.
That someone <B>else</B> gave the key to the fallen star.
Thus, there are <B>two</B> people who had the key of hell (the bottomless pit).
One person, Jesus, had it before the fifth angel sounded.
When the fifth angel sounded, that person <B>gave</B> the key to the other, Apollyon.

In other words, <B>not the same person.

</B><FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Revelations 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by <I>the means of</I> those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

</FONT>Oh oh, here is another one of those times I don't know what your point is exactly, but I will guess that it has something to do with the beast and the miracles it performed.

I'm not sure why you might think the beast is Lucifer, therefore Jesus. OTOH, maybe you don't think that.

In any case, the power to perform miracles isn't limited to Christians.

The Bible has many instances where non-believers performed various miracles, some even performed them specifically to try to prove the power of their god against the power of God.

See Exodus 7 and 8 for an example of this.
The magicians of Egypt matched Aaron and Moses niracle for miracle, except for some details, such as their serpents being swallowed by Aaron's serpent, etc.

There is no indication here that Jesus is Lucifer.

<FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Revelations 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead <I>was</I> a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here <I>is</I> the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

</FONT>I don't see any connection to either Jesus or Lucifer, here.

<FONT COLOR=red>You quoted:
Revelations 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom <I>is</I> as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet <I>are</I>, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.</FONT>

So, the devil, the beast and the false prophet are in the lake of fire.