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fredx
06-10-03, 05:49 PM
It is my humble opinion that a poet is a philosopher that doesn't think. He acts in words. Philosophy is the art of what Hannah Arendt has called the "professional thinker". Poetry is anti-thought because it usually only expresses what is there, while philosophy is usually concerned with essences, or what is there but is not seen.

Poetry is a simple art or a peasant's art, which is not to say that it does not take skill, but that it is like a craft, which is always the domain of the craftsmen, or skilled working peasant. It is a mirror image while "true" philosophy always finds itself in reflection.

Poetry is a peasant's art, from Blake to Ginsberg to the pop singer Jewel's latest bookform rantings. This does not mean that these people are necessarily poor but they embody a certain mentality that is inducive to the expression of feeling that is necessary to make good poetry. To write good poetry you must be exposed to a certain level of suffering. That is why rich people hardly ever write poetry or if they do they write rather bad poetry. They don't suffer the same as those that are exposed to how harsh life can be when survival is always on the line. The money forms a shield against pain, no matter how much they might protest that they know pain, there is no pain worse than poverty. All poets write from the perspective of a kind of poverty.

Perhaps it can be said that philosophers have to be poor as well, and at least those that came after Plato and Aristotle were. Since them, the greatest men have been of relative poverty, i.e. Spinoza, Augustine, Sartre, Camus, Vico, Nietzsche, etc. Of course I don't mean to only consider academic philosophers, I mean anyone that would say that they practice philosophy. That philosophy and poetry both find their spring from lack or desire is well documented in Hannah Arendt's dissertation "Love and St. Augustine", where her thesis is that love is wellspring of all of man's products, even philosophy and poetry, and love is in a sense desire. On page 22 of "Love and St. Augustine", Arendt says, "In this sense caritas (which is a type of desire) indicates not God's "circulating" presence within us, but the grace bestowed by the Creator upon his creature." The grace in terms of this article are the arts of philosophy and poetry.

To return, the heading of this post is the "Philosophy of Poetry" and that is really what I had hoped to speak about. I would like to conclude with this: Poetry is looking at the world through a window with sections, whereas with philosophy we seek to feel the world with our brain.

siledre
06-10-03, 07:55 PM
How did you come to that conclusion? I would say that Philosophy is a poor mans science and Poetry is expressionist art or am I misguided. I definitely think comparing the two is like comparing the sense of taste to religious beliefs.

Xenu
06-10-03, 08:29 PM
fredx,

It's not such a "black or white" issue as you like to present it. There are many different types and levels of both poetry and philosophy. Also the line between the two tends not to be so cut-and-dry either.

If you want to compare specific instances then please do, otherwise all I see so far is just generalizing.

fredx
06-10-03, 08:48 PM
Good points, Xenu. I tend to see things in black and white for the most part, but I don't totally deny that there are shades of grey. Nietzsche wrote philosophic poetry. I just prefer to keep my poetry poetic and my philosophy philosophic. I suppose you can say it is a matter of taste, which it is, but I just think that purer is better. I really don't know if I want to compare and contrast here because I just don't want to spend the time, but I do agree it would be interesting to do so. I however can be a little more concrete in a general way to show you what I mean:

A poet takes life in and writes without thinking things through consciously.

A philosopher takes life in and if he is good he thinks it through to its logical and usually inevitable conclusions and then writes about it.

fredx
06-10-03, 08:52 PM
Siledre,
I think the three points you have made are very interesting and you would definitely do well to explore them further.

fredx
06-10-03, 09:04 PM
When dear prudence craps on your thread you know your in trouble. ;)

one_raven
06-10-03, 09:10 PM
I think there is a great deal of Philosophy to be found in poetry.

You mentioned Ginsberg, I assume you are familiar with him.

Have you read (or better yet, heard him read) America?

Do you not see that as quite philosophical and insightful?

Same goes for Maya Angelou.

Philosophy is what I look for in good poetry.
If a poem makes me think, expands my mind, questions my reasoning, forces me to look at something from an angle unfamiliar to me... That is what I consider the highest quality work.

Without philosophy poetry is pretty much what you were describing up there.

A great deal of poetry, however, is philosophical in nature.
Thankfully.

Xenu
06-10-03, 09:11 PM
I think Dearprudence was demonstrating how the poet and philosopher are similar, through a philosophic poem.

siledre
06-10-03, 09:17 PM
Ah, I see clearer now, I never really thought about the connection to philosophy and poetry which is strange since most of my poetry I now see is philosophical poetry, I don't think I can actually argue for or against the statement of poets writing without thinking things through since I can only base what I know from my own experience, I put a lot of thought into my poetry and that's why I resisted initially what you were saying.
It's unfortunate that I tend to react too quickly to those things I have not dwelled on much but that's why I love forums, it takes me where I need to go.

fredx
06-10-03, 09:40 PM
Yes I have read "America". It was good. You all have very valid points. I personally think that the best poetry is not philosophic in the strictest sense of what philosophy is. What I am saying is that even if it has what you would call "philosophic" content, poetry is always better if it is written "off the cuff". That said I don't know many poets that don't write in this way. Too much thinking spoils poetry, it needs to come out of you like the notes that come out of your guitar. And I don't think I can put it more simply than that.

one_raven
06-10-03, 09:52 PM
fredx,
You definitely have a valid point.
The best poetry (for the most part) is the poetry that just rolls off the poets mind.
Poetry that flows like a liquid.

but the best poetic minds (in my opinion) are philosophers at their root (in their "souls", if you will) and the beauty that does roll off their minds unencumbered is very often deeply philosophical.
Not because the poet put the time and effort into that particular poem and making it convey that particular idea, but because the poet spends most of his/her time thinking about these phiolosophocal ideas, and when they write their abstract thoughts on the matter is naturally reflected in their writing.

When a philospher allows him/herself to think and create in an uninterrupted stream of consciousness, what comes out is philosophy.

fredx
06-10-03, 10:02 PM
Yes One Raven, not only are your points very valid but you have expressed your self in just the right words. It is sometimes of interest to pay attention to exactly the words you use, because they tell the whole story.

I encourage you to read over my Literature Vrs. Philosophy forum again, as it might help you sharpen you already valid points.

one_raven
06-10-03, 10:05 PM
fredx,
thank you

Originally posted by fredx
I encourage you to read over my Literature Vrs. Philosophy forum again

Where would I find that?

fredx
06-10-03, 11:04 PM
its in the philosophy section, its probably not on the first page any more though.

fredx
06-10-03, 11:08 PM
oh I didn't mean that as an insult, I was just saying that if someone named dearprudence craps on your thread, your probably going in the wrong direction.

Anyway, what are you talking about a picture of me? Your starting to freak me out now.

fredx
06-10-03, 11:19 PM
Your a little scary, nevertheless, I am excited about seeing this picture, tell me where its going to be, if thats not too much trouble.

fredx
06-10-03, 11:30 PM
I suppose freethoughts would be more practical and don't "injure" me too bad. ;)

fredx
06-11-03, 04:37 PM
I still don't see where you put it.