Continuation----hell in a hand basket

[ilgwamh]

My original question asked "if it were found out that Christianity and the Bible were true what would you do."

For those who said they wouldn't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ even if they found out it was all true, I would like to here your opinions on this passage from C.S. Lewis. Anyone else can post their opinions as well if they like.

C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 53

"Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with Him. But there is a difficulty about disagreeing with God. He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes: you could not be right and He wrong any more than a stream can rise higher than its own source. When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all: it is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on. If God thinks this state of war in the universe is a price worth paying for free will--that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings--then we make take it it is worth paying."

Remember, we were assuming it (Jesus and all that good stuff) was all proven to be true.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

[Tiassa]

A few points I think are important here.

* What constitutes a "personal relationship" with Jesus? Now, the way I see it, your idea of a personal relationship and mine probably differ some. Are we talking about having a beer with the J-Man? or kneeling and taking oaths of fealty? Either is a personal relationship.

* I think the stream analogy falls thin in the modern day ... plenty of devices can drive water higher than its source. We don't stop calling a river a river just because we put a dam on it, or feed lock canals with pumps. But I get what you're getting after, and the problem is that it goes both ways. After all ... what happens if your idea of God is wrong? Your idea IS separate from God in that sense; and you can no more be right if your idea of God is wrong than I could be, according to your citation.

I might cite the band Concrete Blonde, here: "God is a bullet, have mercy on us, every one!"

* Six people witness an event ... they all describe the event differently. Which account is true, or have six events taken place?

Likewise, six people witness God ... they all describe God's work differently: which is the true account of God's work?

But the problem with the Lewis citation is that he merely BELIEVES this of God, and states it as fact. It's a pretty keen philosophical work to say the least, but Lewis could be wrong in his vision of God, in which case he is, essentially, arguing with God, and there we have a new paradox. Actually, a very, very old one, but no matter.

The universe extends well beyond a cross on a hill in Israel. So does God. All of our consideration about Godly interaction with people rests on the assumption that we are the Center of God's Universe, the Apple of His Eye; essentially that there is no grander Plan taking place throughout the universe. But even that idea can melt away, but we have to speculate about God beyond what the Bible tells us, and that doesn't seem to go too well with Christians, unless, of course, they're condemning people on God's behalf.

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

[Oxygen]

He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes

This is an assumption, not a proven fact. You can only base assumptions on assumptions. I do understand, however, that this a hypothetical situation, so if I may respond with a little reciprocal rhetoric; Christians and other followers of God, what would you do if you found out that it was all wrong, that there never was a God, that Jesus never existed and was only a contrived myth? What if it could be proven beyond a doubt that the bible is little more than a misconstrued history book, the legends written therein used only as a means of controlling the masses?

I can already hear some of you saying "But I KNOW it's true, I KNOW he's real,...". Put it aside for a moment and humor me. What if it's all a lie?

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

[Corp.Hudson]

That is an interesting question. One problem is that Jesus himself was real, that fact is undisputable. Even if you dont believe in christianity, you can not disagree with the EXISTENCE of Jesus of Nazareth any more then that of Julius Ceaser. Let us, hypothetically, assume that god does not exist and Jesus had no divine qualities. I think that all of us christians would continue living by the principles that Jesus laid out. We would essentially remain unchanged, though the praying and faith would obviously stop.

And Oxygen, please dont stereotype us all into mindless baboons who cant have a discussion that doesnt involve converting someone. Also, you are the one not answering the question. The 2 previous replies both addressed how the situation was impossible, so it was worthless to answer.

[This message has been edited by Corp.Hudson (edited January 05, 2000).]

[truestory]

tiassa,

Have you ever had a relationship with someone who you loved with all your heart who, amazingly, loved you even more? No matter how intelligent and wise you might be, this person is always much smarter and much wiser than you? Someone who sticks with you, through all the good times and the bad, no matter what. Someone who you can go to with whatever difficulty you might be having and they will always have a wise and positive solution to offer. Have you ever walked, talked, laughed and cried "with" them on a drizzly, overcast day which went unnoticed because being with them was like a breath of fresh, clean air on a bright, sunny day?

I could go on and on and never adequately explain to someone who has not experienced it yet, what a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is like.

[666]

I would do nothing differnet at all. What would you do if you found the opposite to be true?

I also find the quote by lewis to be a an easy excuse to avoid true discusion.

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited January 05, 2000).]

[Oxygen]

Corp. Hudson-If it appears that I have dodged the question it is because I have answered in the original post on the topic which was also addressed to those of us who are going to Hell in handbasket.

I can argue against Jesus's existence. Not immediately, because I must find my material again, but all we have are tales and word-of-mouth decsriptions. We all know how accurate these can be. There is nothing solid proving that Jesu ben Josef even lived. It's entirely possible that he may have been a form of folk-hero or superhero where the people made up their own stories as time went by.

Also, I didn't intend to belittle anyone's intellectual capabilities. I hate it when people do that to me, so I would never purposely do it to anyone else. I apologize if my words were condescending. I looked over my post and can't see where that tone was presented. If it's about the "I KNOW it's true, I KNOW he's real...", I was merely remarking on the unquestioning faith possessed by many.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

[ISDAMan]

truestory,

Prais God for the Peace He give you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus is the answer,
ISDAMan

[truestory]

Amen, ISDAMan!

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

[Tiassa]

Truestory:

Yes, I do know that kind of a relationship. Strangely, though, I don't have to pray to her in order to feel that.

And when I'm the most pagan, no weather can truly bum me; I mean, I don't enjoy hurricane winds, but that's a grand spiral dance, is it not?

What is saddest about my personal relationship with Jesus is that it just isn't good enough in the perception of most of the Christians around me. But that relationship does exist, in a small portion of my soul that I consider sacred. However, I just can't seem to communicate that I hold the peace Christian ideas offers on par with "social reflections". What is best about Jesus' teachings to me is what it could give society. Unfortunately, this goes hand in hand with the revulsion modern Christian practice inspires in me. That perceived failure of the Christian body social to realize its potential is a tragedy to me, brought about by the overly-complex balance of there being too many versions of this idea for them all to be right.

I mean, how can I express that Jim Henson, Shel Silverstein, Dr Seuss, and other mortal genius-artists have given me the same measure of spiritual clarity and peace, if not moreso? It has been my perfectly consistent experience that in no manner can a Christian perceive of the value I give the work and ideas of these people; they can only take it to mean a reduction of Christ. That's entirely possible, but it could also be that one person's perception of my reduction is my own, or yet another person's perception of respect. But my personal relationship with Jesus no more compels me to live Christian law as modern Christians explain it, no more compels me to imitate the people I've known to call themselves Christian, than my personal relationship with the triune Goddess compels me to live monastically in the wilderness, eating berries and marking ley lines on a map.

Call it what you want, it's all music to me.

And I don't actually mean to be flippant here, no matter how it sounds; but I have a very hard time accepting the idea of excluding all of these wonderful ideas and considerations, and what they mean in the grand scheme to explain the universe we live in. I prefer the idea of a personal relationship with someone who doesn't demand that I end personal relationships with others. To be perfectly honest, that's like my last girlfriend. And Jesus--whatever the sum total his ideas will give me--most definitely deserves better respect than that generated by such exclusive relations.

I can only hope I'm getting through to you even a little. Lately trying to explain things to you is a little like Pink Floyd: "Hello ... is there anybody out there? Just nod if you can hear me; is there anyone at all?"

Truly, I mean that with some genuine affection here: I have no idea why I'm failing to communicate the simplest notions to you. If it isn't something about the exclusivity of the modern Christian philosophy, then we're obviously speaking entirely different versions of English.

--Tiassa

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

[ISDAMan]

tiassa,

Read I & II John and then tell me how your personal relationship with Christ adds up to the Bible. I'd like to know. Even from the mouth of Jesus we know that perfection is an exclusive club. You can only go through one doorway at a time. Also, trying to leave a way back to where you have traveled away from is no better than not going at all. That's what it is to add the teachings of others in as though they had the power of Christ's.

Christ is the door and no man will go to the Father except by Him,
ISDAMan

[truestory]

tiassa,


Truly, I mean that with some genuine affection here:

If you are sincere, then I must say thank you and tell you... I have heard what it is that is like music to you... to me, your one statement above is like a personally unknown band just warming up... I hope it continues to play, and I hope that it eminates an enjoyable new sound, because I simply love well-played live music!


I have no idea why I'm failing to communicate the simplest notions to you.

You are not failing to communicate. I have been here, I am listening and I believe that I understand what you are saying most of the time...


What is saddest about my personal relationship with Jesus is that it just isn't good enough in the perception of most of the Christians around me. But that relationship does exist, in a small portion of my soul that I consider sacred. However, I just can't seem to communicate that I hold the peace Christian ideas offers on par with "social reflections". What is best about Jesus' teachings to me is what it could give society.

We do differ in the way we view Jesus Christ. But, that's O.K. I'll just explain why... Although Jesus' teachings were, of course, wonderful, what is best about Jesus to me is who He is - God - and what He did for mankind - gave us the gift of salvation. I hold the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be "knowledge given by God to man so that man may attain eternal spiritual salvation."


Unfortunately, this goes hand in hand with the revulsion modern Christian practice inspires in me.

I understand where you are coming from. For me too, yes, it would be great if everyone got it... Quite frankly, I find many of the practices of modern man, Christians and non-Christians alike, to be revulsive. However, I do not look to men and women or their acts for Christian inspiration. I look to Jesus Christ only.


That perceived failure of the Christian body social to realize its potential is a tragedy to me, brought about by the overly-complex balance of there being too many versions of this idea for them all to be right.

I agree, and I believe that, in large part, it is the body-social "schisms" which you mentioned previously which have gotten in the way of the body-spiritual of the Christian community. The focus needs to be on our common Saviour, Jesus Christ... what He is and what He has done for us.


I mean, how can I express that Jim Henson, Shel Silverstein, Dr Seuss, and other mortal genius-artists have given me the same measure of spiritual clarity and peace, if not moreso? It has been my perfectly consistent experience that in no manner can a Christian perceive of the value I give the work and ideas of these people; they can only take it to mean a reduction of Christ. That's entirely possible, but it could also be that one person's perception of my reduction is my own, or yet another person's perception of respect.

Now... this, I'm not sure that I get. Are you saying you believe that to enjoy the work of those people whom you consider to be artistic geniuses somehow diminishes your relationship with Jesus Christ? In your eyes? In the eyes of others? In the eyes of God? Or, are you saying that you, personally, hold these artistic geniuses and their work above the genius, work and spiritual service of God to man?


But my personal relationship with Jesus no more compels me to live Christian law as modern Christians explain it, no more compels me to imitate the people I've known to call themselves Christian, than my personal relationship with the triune Goddess compels me to live monastically in the wilderness, eating berries and marking ley lines on a map.

Here, we agree somewhat and we disagree to a certain degree. Hopefully, we're both O.K. with that... I, too, do not feel that my personal relationship with Jesus should be defined by others. For me, being a Christian is striving to be Christ-like according to the standards which Jesus Christ set, not the standards of others, modern or not. I agree that we should not imtitate other human beings, Christian or otherwise. They are all faulty sinners, just like us. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour, as individuals, we get to "know" Jesus Christ and "strive to be like" Jesus Christ. When we know Jesus Christ for what He is, all man and all God (God in the flesh), then we realize his uniqueness. No such entity has ever existed in the history of manking, either before, or after. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour, the forces of nature which we enjoy, we still ejoy. We are not obligated to give up such relationships. However, we come to understand that these forces "come" from God... they are not gods or godesses in and of themselves. We come to understand that God is unique.


And I don't actually mean to be flippant here, no matter how it sounds; but I have a very hard time accepting the idea of excluding all of these wonderful ideas and considerations, and what they mean in the grand scheme to explain the universe we live in. I prefer the idea of a personal relationship with someone who doesn't demand that I end personal relationships with others. To be perfectly honest, that's like my last girlfriend. And Jesus--whatever the sum total his ideas will give me--most definitely deserves better respect than that generated by such exclusive relations.

Now, here, we differ greatly... However, I trust that we will still be O.K. with our differences... Here, I am hearing a variation of another theme which has been discussed on this board recently... The reluctance on the part of some individuals to accept Jesus Christ into their life as their Saviour because they believe that it means giving up some worldly things.

I would first, like to say that I am truly sorry about your personal relationship with your last girlfriend. I've been there before and I know it's not pleasant. I can tell you from my personal experience, however, that the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Saviour is not an exclusive relationship. It does not mean that you must exclude your current relationships with others in the universe. Although some of these relationships might change somewhat, if they do, they always change for the better. Other relationships do not cease to exist, if anything, they are enhanced in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you!

[Tiassa]

Truestory--

Thank you for the kind consideration. A couple of notes to hopefully further define a couple of ideas ....

* "You are not failing to communicate. I have been here, I am listening and I believe that I understand what you are saying most of the time... "

Again, thank you. Part of the reason we fight so much, though, is that oftentimes I have no idea where you're coming from in a specific sense of compassion--have you read "To Kill a Mockingbird"? When Atticus explains to Scout about "walking a mile in a man's shoes" .... oftentimes I belive you inject a certain brand of faith that fails to recognize that there are specific conditions that developed each of our faiths in anything, so that what we find important in that faith looks totally different. Certainly, may the peace of Christ go with you, but I'm sure we're seeing different aspects of that peace. And when you fail to recognize those different aspects, that's when I get nasty.

* "Now... this, I'm not sure that I get..."

That's OK. It's part of the mystery that goes beyond words for me.

But to try and give a better image: I have a canon of images, ideas, poetry, music ... the stuff of human expression. Each piece in the sacred canon is there because it gives me clear advisement on various aspects of the human condition. Where philosophers explain, artists demonstrate. Silverstein's "Giving Tree" has stuck with me longer than most Bible stories; has remained more relevant to my decision-making and considerations of morality. So has L'Engle's "Wrinkle in Time". Henson's Muppets taught me humor, and the simplest of wide-eyed notions of humanity. Certain works by human hands and minds have given me greater insight to the Grand Illusion than any religion I've played.

But to try to express the power of these things ... it doesn't seem to go over well among a Christian audience; consistently it is interpreted as an attempt to diminish the glory of their Lord and Savior. And that leads to the kind of rhetorial standoffs we're quite familiar with.

And of the places we differ, that's expected. But I'm inclined to note, regarding your last paragraphs ... there are several philosophical relationships I engage which, if my interpretations of Christian practice are nearly correct, I would have to dismiss. Certainly, the relationship does not cease to exist, but it would change so that I was actively ignoring the other entity. That does not make any part of those relationships better. As to the wordly things ... there's only a few, but God gave 'em to me if there's God to make the universe and all things in it. That may sound flippant, but that's part of the reason I intentionally maintain some distance from Christian practice. I just really don't get the prohibitions. I mean, as functions of social necessity, yes, but as improving your spiritual outlook ... that's subjective. What if Tim Leary was right, and if you ride LSD just right, you can tap God's conscience? What if Crowley was right, and the moment of orgasm is the only moment in which the human male can be "zen" enough to see God? I mean, I know more people who are following Leary's ideas than Crowley's, but in either case, I don't see the need to rush to excess; however, I don't see the need for prohibition, either.

Unfortunately, the sum effect of that negative history of Christianity we argue about is that nobody--myself included--can guarantee that the contents of the Book are truly as God intended; that any one person's interpretation is correct; that any of it's more than a dog-and-pony show. But as to the dog and pony, I will admit that it takes something more genuine than simple cajoling and buffoonery to create the maginitude of Christian faith in the world. And that's why I'll give it some credit. But I can't say that it's genuine, and I will not risk my life to that.

And I have dated women that would have made reasonable wives. But I'm not going to marry them, ever. I offer that only as an analogy to give perspective to the distance I maintain in my relationship with Jesus ... though part of the reason I won't get married is that phrases like "reasonable wives" make me cringe with the presupposition of the right of judgement.

Oh, now look--I've gone and gotten up on my soapbox.

TTFN
--Tiassa

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

[ilgwamh]

If it were found out it weren't true I would probably serve myself a little more. But my morals would remain pretty much the same. I would find those teachings accredited to Jesus very useful and informative. The idea about loving your nieghbor and not judging and lots of other stuff. I doubt many would fast or anything like that anymore. There would be no purpose to it. A few things would change but I would still hold to many of the christian virtues. Christian worship music would kind of suck seeing how I wouldn't be able to really relate to it anymore. No more 'Shout To The Lord' :(

___________________________________
* I think the stream analogy falls thin in the modern day ... plenty of devices can drive water higher than its source. We don't stop calling a river a river just because we put a dam on it, or feed lock canals with pumps. But I get what you're getting after, and the problem is that it goes both ways. After all ... what happens if your idea of God is wrong? Your idea IS separate from God in that sense; and you can no more be right if your idea of God is wrong than I could be, according to your citation.
_______________________________________

Every analogy falls thin regardless of the time on some technicality. But did you understand the point of it? God created everything. He made you and designed all this stuff. For you to argue against Him and say you know better or that he is wrong for doing something is just plain pride.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

[Flash]

TS and Vinnie,
Sorry, but I am a bit under the influence...
regardless, I am still not buying into wat eite of your say.... I think that the both
of you are totally off base...I'm sorry..but
ot seems t me that the both of you are
jst trying to find excuses to god's actions....

[ISDAMan]

Flash,

It hurts to see you still this way. I'm praying for your salvation.

I Love You even if you think no one else will,
ISDAMan

[truestory]

tiassa,

In a way, it seems like we're coming from the same perspective with respect to different issues.

It seems that you choose to stay away from Christianity because your view of the history of Christianity in a "social" sense wreaks of what you perceive to be destructive negativity. I, of course, disagree with your perception.

On the other hand, I choose to stay away from drugs, for example, because my view the history of drugs in a "social" sense wreaks of what I perceive to be destructive negativity. You, of course, disagree with my perception.

Drugs bring you peace...?

Jesus Christ brings me peace.

It's strange that you should mention my compassion. Those who really know me view me as an extremely compassionate person... so much so, that I have been asked to speak to groups about compassion.

Sometimes, if you don't get a response from me, it is because of the atmosphere in which the issue or question was presented. I'll leave it at that.

Back to my view of and experience with Christianity, if you're interested... I do not view Christianity as an exclusive social club. I view it as a gift. Salvation is available to us all. My personal experience of accepting Jesus Christ as my Saviour did not involve prohibitions or exclusions.

After I got God's call, yes, I truly repented for the wrong that I had done, I truly asked for God's forgiveness and I truly accepted Jesus Christ as my Saviour... as long as I keep Jesus Christ in my life, He helps to steer me away from even the temptation to do wrong.

Something else change though. Once I was called by God to spread the Word, once God told me about total forgiveness by way of the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, my whole temperament changed.

My acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Saviour filled me with a sense of natural inner peace (which, by the way, I had convinced myself previously that I already had - I later learned that I had just been kidding myself).

This sense of peace has changed my life and the lives of those around me in an amazing way. Now, I am able to love everybody no matter what (I had convinced myself that I was already doing that, too, but I wasn't). I hold no ill feelings for anyone anymore, even those who I previously might have disliked because of the wrong that they had done to me or my family, because of the malicious gossip they might have spread about me, etc... I am now able to separate the sin from the sinner and see the good in everyone. I have found it to be a much healthier way to live... spiritually, emotionally and physically.

This great, big, diversified universe which God gave us is still here for my enjoyment and I am still able to use all of the great creative, expressive, artistic, intellectual gifts, etc... which God gave me. I'm still the first one on the dance floor and I'm still the life of the party (or so others say - I never could figure that one out!?). But, none of that can compare to the gift of inner peace which Jesus Christ brings to my life.

That peace is contagious, too. My family and those around me have also benefited. My relationships have been greatly enhanced by this inner peace. There is a whole new and wonderful "atmosphere" in the world - and I thank God for it!

Thanks for listening - and may the peace of the Lord, Jesus Christ, be with you, too!

PS - What does TTFN mean?


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 09, 2000).]

[Flash]

ISDAMan,
Look...everyone cuts loose every now and then... but, that doesn't mean you should pity those that do. Nor does it mean when
people drink that they do not think others
love them.... I'm ok..you're ok LOL

[Flash]

TS,
Do you think that peace can only be obtained
through God &/or Jesus? If you believe this...why then are there many non-christians
that have peace?

[truestory]

Hello Flash!

Nice to see you again. :)

I believe that everyone can have a sense of peace in their lives. I experienced it before accepting Jesus Christ in my life.

Now, with Jesus Christ in my life, peace is enhanced to wonderful new levels which I didn't know existed!

PS - How's the head? ;)



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 09, 2000).]

[SkyeBlue]

Tiassa -

Your quote: "Call it what you want, it's all music to me." really rings SUCH a bell with me (pardon the pun!). When I was in my worst phase of my teen-years, my only solace came from writing. One night, I was exuasted - my family was in crisis, I was working 3 jobs and trying to pass high school, which left me about 3 hours of sleep per day, with no time off. I came home from my last job of the night, and had only those 3 hours before I had to be at my morning job, which was followed by schoool, then 2 more jobs, then I'd get another 3 hours to hopefully sleep. I was so angry, and just wrung out trying to deal with all the stress I was under. Drugs and alchohol were adding to the family crisis and when I first got home, my plans were to grab a bottle of Vodka and put myself down for the few hours I had. Instead I picked up a pen, and my notebook. For all three of the hours I had, I wrote madly, as fast as I could. Dawn broke, I realized I had spent all my sleeping time, so I stashed the notebook, showered and began the new day. For weeks I forgot I had even done this. (Days were very much a blur, I can't even tell you how many times I forgot what day of the week it was). About 2 months later things got a little better. Mom's disability checks finally started coming. Dad found a new company that hopefull wouldn't go bankrupt like the last one. I was able to drop 2 of my jobs, and get real sleep. I finally had a little time after school to be a kid again, and hang out with my boyfriend and my friends.

Later, I came accross that notebook and read those many pages I had written. 3 hours of just dumping my soul out on paper usues up a lot of pages! I had somehow managed to relate everything to music. Evil=lack of music. Good=attunement to music. Reality had the music to back it up, fantasy did not. If you see something that seems to be fantasy, listen with your heart, and your heart will find the music, if it's there. Love is only true if the music is there. Friendship; same deal. I read it, re-read it, and read it a third time. I sat on the ground in shock. I didn't even remember writing it until I began to read it, but once I read it, it all flooded back. I believe that somehow I managed to tap into my subconcious mind, and it clarified a lot to me. I sat on the floor, and thought long and hard about myself, who I was, and what I was doing with my life. I was 17. That afternoon, I proposed to my 16 year old boyfriend. I told my best friend that she was my soul's sister, and that I would ALWAYS be there for her. Today, that boyfriend is my beloved husband. That best friend lives 2 hours away from me, but if I concentrate, I can still tell if she's having a good day or not, we see eachother every chance we get. Some friends I used to have I never spoke to again. Some of THOSE people today aren't even alive anymore. I have to think that I was right, at least in part. That guidance that came straight from my soul has carried me through to today, and every couple of years I pull out that worn-out notebook and re-read my own words.

I'm sorry, that was really off topic, wasn't it!! But I just got such a flood from your words, Tiassa! The Goddess does speak to you, doesn't she?!

Thanks for putting up with my rambling, everyone. Blessed be! :)

[Flash]

ha ha ha ha..... the head is fine, thanks...
as you can tell I have my shades on...so it helps ;)

Ok, so you agree that peace can be found without Jesus/God...

Now, I ask... what about love? What about
truth?

[truestory]

Flash,

Glad to hear the shades are helping. Do you wear your sunglasses at night? ;)

Yes, I believe that as human beings, without Jesus Christ/God in our lives, we can still have a temporary "sense" of truth, peace and love... However, since Jesus Christ/God is the eternal "truth", we must be "with" Jesus Christ/God, in order to experience the "whole truth," in order to become truly loving and truly peaceful.

[Oxygen]

If I may confes here, the trouble I felt after leaving the flock was the only thing temporary. I have found my real peace without Jesus and God. The subject is fascinating, especially since I love history and human behavior so, but I felt a burden leave my back when I became an atheist. There were difficulties reconciling it with my family, but they grew to accept it and I can once again have religious discussions with my father. (Oddly enough, these usually happen, by chance, on Sunday mornings. When my atheism became apparent, the talks stopped. They didn't resume again until last Sunday, when I asked him who he loved more, God or me? I think all three of us won because my father picked me and we still discuss God and religion on Sunday mornings without excommunicating each other.)

[Flash]

TS,
Of course...things look a lot better that way.. ;)

Could you do me a favor and explain then the fact that Oxygen found total peace without
God/Jesus?

Thank you for your response Oxygen.

[truestory]

Flash,

(Forgive me, Oxygen) But it seems to me that Oxygen has not found true peace in his relationships without Jesus Christ/God... If I am reading his post correctly, it seems that he was only able to reconcile with his father "recently" when his father stated that he chose Oxygen over God. (Why his father even had to make such a choice is beyond me). Such a relationship and such a sense of peace can only be temporary.

The love, peace and truth of Jesus Christ/God is eternal and true.

Oxygen,

If you don't mind my asking, why did you even ask your father such a question? Was it your father who decided to stop communicating with you, originally? If so, I would venture to say that he might have been more into the "ritual" of a church rather than into a relationship with Jesus Christ. Why I say this is because the unconditional love of Jesus Christ would never turn a mere sinner away, especially a child and your comment about "Sunday mornings" rings true for those who are only going through the motions.

Was this the case? Did your father stop talking with you, did you stop talking with your father or was it a case of mutual pride?



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 10, 2000).]

[Flash]

The love, peace and truth of Jesus Christ/God is eternal and true.

So you are saying that love, peace, and truth
are only eternal via christ/god? If you are saying this..may I ask how you know this is the only way? Have you explored all other
avenues? Look, I'm not trying to fight..ok?
I am being sincere.

[666]

Truestory,

Mind if I jump in?


But is seems to me that Oxygen has not found true peace in his relationships without Jesus Christ/God...

How do you know? People find "inner peace" in thier own way. To be so self-righteous to determine that someone has or has not found it is a very bold statement. Try geting off the high horse.

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[truestory]

Flash,

No problem...

Although I hate to admit it, as I have explained to Lori previously, I am probably the last person that anyone would think would become a Christian. Why? Because I did not have "faith" in anything other than myself.

Yes, there was a point in my life when I had gone through a "search," looking for answers to the proverbial questions of "Who am/are I/we?" and "Why am/are I/we here?" and "Is there a higher power?" etc...

During my lifetime, I have read about most, if not all, belief systems and even participated in the "ritual" of various belief systems. Skye will love this... there was even a point when I was a young teenager, working as a cashier in a local grocery store, when I developed a "crush" on an "older man," the 18 year-old assistant manager. One day, when in the library, a book caught my attention which had an advertisement on the cover, something along the lines of, "How to make that special someone love you." I took the book home, read it, and even managed to get a lock of hair from my special someone. He was a little hesitant at first, but eventually, he was willing to let me cut the sample off. I never did go through with that prescribed "ritual," because he ended up asking me out on a date. Yes, he was nice enough, but of course, he would have preferred to have been with an older, more "experienced" woman... I was just a kid...

Anyway, to make a long story even longer, I never "became" religious and I remained without "faith" during my "search." As strange as it may seem, although I had "heard" about Jesus Christ, contrary to most "Christian" experiences, I did not "find" Jesus Christ and I did not start "believing" in Jesus Christ due to my search or because of a matter of "faith."

For many years, due to other experiences I have had (which I have mentioned on this board previously), I believed that there was in fact an "afterlife" and I thought that there was "probably" some type of god or gods or some type of higher power or powers, however, I could not be sure - and there came a point in my life when I became apathetic to the existence of God. I thought, "Well, if God exists, then fine. If God does not exist, well, then that's fine with me too."

At that point, no one and nothing had shown me or proved to me that God did or did not exist or that any one way was the right way. I figured that since I was a "good" person with what I thought were good basic values, what the heck? Whatever life "is," let it be! I figured I'd just enjoy it while I was here... I spent a number of years in this "apathetic" state, and was very happy and peaceful I might add (or so I thought).

Now, most Christians are brought to Jesus Christ and God through a matter of "faith" and I must say that I admire them and am humbled by their experiences.

Me, I am more of a "show me" type person. Well, God showed me alright. After more than twenty years of searching and finding nothing, in the midst of a few years in my happy, peaceful "apathetic" state, while sightseeing in an extremely busy New York City, without a care in the world, God came to me. I did not seek God out. God came to me, unsolicited. God called me to spread the Word (whatever that was) and introduced me to the reality of Jesus Christ and the divine gift of salvation.

I cannot describe to you how powerful this unsolicited experience was... Almost immediately thereafter, God lead me to the Bible. That is how I found, in print, the Word which God spoke of to me... The Word of God who IS Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, which God asked me to spread... That is how I found, in black and white (and red), the historical origin, development and fulfillment of God's divine message of salvation through Jesus Christ, the Son, the only way, through whom, "all" good things will come, which God spoke of to me... That is where I learned of the "uniqueness" of Jesus Christ/God who came to us as a man, whose life, teachings, divinity, service and sacrifice were prophesied, observed and recorded for our benefit by many... and that is how I learned the truth...

That is why I repented for my sins... That is why I asked God to forgive me, that is why I accepted Jesus Christ into my life as my Saviour and that is how I came to learn true love and peace.

In a way, I am sad to have to admit that it was not "faith" that brought me to the truth about Jesus Christ. It was God who came to me instead, independently and unsolicited, and told me the truth... That IS how "I" learned of these things, from God.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 10, 2000).]

[truestory]

666,

No. I don't mind at all if you jump in. However, I'd truly appreciate it if you'd ask your question without adding snide remarks.

To answer your question... I never did say that I "know"... What I said was that it "seems" to me (it "appears" to me) that Oxygen has not found true peace...

Why does it "seem" that way to me? Because... although Oxygen might "state" that he has found inner peace, Oxygen also goes on to describe unrest in his relationship with his family caused by what seems to be an inner turmoil... the question being... Who does his father love more: God, or Oxygen?

I truly hope that this clears matters up for you.

Peace be with you!



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 10, 2000).]

[Flash]

TS,

I believed that there was in fact an "afterlife" and I thought that there was "probably" some type of god or gods or some type of higher power or powers, however, I could not be sure

Ok...do to experiences which you have had (bad/good?) you came to believe there was some sort of higher power out there..but you could not be sure.
First, I am curious about the experiences which you have had..if you could lead me to the posts that you are referring to..that would be great. I have read where you described a negative experience...ummm..I think in which you thought it to be an evil spirit or something like that...are there others?
Second, If there are good experiences are you saying that these were only of God?
TS, I have had many experiences that are as real as can be...ones which I cannot deny to be anything other than that. Of these experiences there are tons which are positive... and it is through these experiences that I found the Spirit of Truth.
Now, I know that you have stated in the past that you feel that the Spirit of Truth is the spirit of the antichrist. Although, yes..I have been taught certain things about Jesus which are ANTIchirst thinking... there is more to it than that. The "fruits" of the Spirit of Truth is love, joy, peace....ect... I too did not
seek this Spirit out...it sought me out.
So.... what do you make of the experiences that I have had? I guess what I am trying to say...my source has given me the things which you claim your source has.

[tablariddim]

Originally posted by truestory:
,
Me, I am more of a "show me" type person. Well, God showed me alright. After more than twenty years of searching and finding nothing, in the midst of a few years in my happy, peaceful "apathetic" state, while sightseeing in an extremely busy New York City, without a care in the world, God came to me. I did not seek God out. God came to me, unsolicited. God called me to spread the Word (whatever that was) and introduced me to the reality of Jesus Christ and the divine gift of salvation.).]

Have you stopped to consider your state of mind at that partircular time? There could have been many subliminal or even real influences to have caused you to perceive your vision/experience as coming from the JudeoChristian God.
I'm wondering now, as I visualise you, if you always felt as though you had a higher purpose, a feeling of a supernatural destiny, I'm wondering if you actually willed yourself to have the vision!
Perhaps you have a conforming kind of personality, so that subconciously you really wanted to become a Christian all along.

Love to you and may your God be http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/chef_tab.gif





[This message has been edited by tablariddim (edited January 10, 2000).]

[truestory]

Flash,

As for my previous experiences, although they were relatively few and far between... I had a number of powerful experiences whereby I was given audible messages concerning impending crisis, including the impending death of others. Had I not been given these messages, and had I not had the sense to recognize their importance and validity and act on them, serious harm to others would not have been averted.

When I get a chance, I will do a search to point you in the direction of the various posts which describe some of these experiences.

In the meantime, concerning your question:


Now, I know that you have stated in the past that you feel that the Spirit of Truth is the spirit of the antichrist. Although, yes..I have been taught certain things about Jesus which are ANTIchirst thinking... there is more to it than that. The "fruits" of the Spirit of Truth is love, joy, peace....ect... I too did not
seek this Spirit out...it sought me out.
So.... what do you make of the experiences that I have had?

In order for me to be able to better answer your question about the experiences which you have had, it would be helpful if you could describe how this spirit manifests itself to you, to share specifically its anti-Christ teachings and also to share what it is that leads you to believe that its fruits are love, joy, peace, etc...

Without this information, it is sufficient to say that a spirit which teaches anti-Christ thinking and which causes you to be repulsed at the Word of God (Jesus Christ is the Word of God) is the spirit of the anti-Christ. So far, the only fruit of this spirit which is apparent is that of the anti-Christ.




[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 10, 2000).]

[truestory]

tab'


Have you stopped to consider your state of mind at that partircular time? There could have been many subliminal or even real influences to have caused you to perceive your vision/experience as coming from the JudeoChristian God.
I'm wondering now, as I visualise you, if you always felt as though you had a higher purpose, a feeling of a supernatural destiny, I'm wondering if you actually willed yourself to have the vision!
Perhaps you have a conforming kind of personality, so that subconciously you really wanted to become a Christian all along.

First, please allow me to say once again that it was God who called me, not "the JudeoChristian God" but simply, God.

With regards to your theory about the possibility that I subconsciously "wanted" to become a Christian, I can tell you that Christianity did not make sense to me prior to God's call. Why do you think I would "want" to be a part of something which made no sense to me?

All of the supernatural experiences which I have had have been unsolicited and have come out of the blue. I never "willed" any of them and, although none of them made any sense to me at the time, as I explained to Flash, through my ability to recognize their importance and their validity so as to act upon them, serious harm to others has been averted. God's call is no different. There is an impending danger to many souls on this earth. God's message began with, "It is not too late..."

As far as your theory about me having a conforming type of personality, let me say that I am sure many others wish that were the case! :)

To give you an idea of how those who know me perceive me, here is the caption which my teachers and my peers put under my picture in my high-school yearbook:

"Above all liberties, give me the liberty to know, to believe, and to utter freely, according to my conscience, not yours."

The captions were intended to convey the essence of the individual. My nature is as a leader, not a follower.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 10, 2000).]

[666]

Trusestory,

Sorry I was a bit uppity that day. I shouldn't have posted that part.

Relationships with people go up and down. You argue, you laugh, and other stuff like that. You can't take one but not the other. Is it possible that someone "faith" can get in the way of a relationship? To belive so strongly about a given subject that if the other person in the relationship has a differing opinion that the other can not except it or to some degree the other person. I know I have run into this kinda of person.

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited January 10, 2000).]

[truestory]

666,

Thank you. I truly appreciate that. :)

Of course, we are human, and our relationships with people can go up and down on the exterior. If we are talking about having found true inner peace, however, that is a different story.

For example... when one is truly with Jesus Christ, although they might spread the Word of God, debate with another person about their beliefs and even fight against the "spirit" of the anti-Christ... A person who is with Jesus Christ will never need to be "accepted" by another individual, because their inner peace does not come from the acceptance of other human beings, their inner peace comes from their own acceptance of the gift of love of Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Jesus Christ accepts "everyone," no matter what, and so does the person who is with Jesus Christ. There is, of course, certain "behaviors" that Jesus Christ does not accept. However, with Jesus Christ in one's life, they learn how to separate the behavior from the individual or the sin from the sinner, so to speak.

Someone who has found true inner peace through Jesus Christ, loves unconditionally, no matter what. Someone who has found true inner peace through Jesus Christ does not "harbor" resentments towards other human beings regardless of the other person's behavior, sins or beliefs.

As far as someone who is truly with Jesus Christ is concerned, another person's opposing belief will never truly get in the way of their relationship. The other person's behavior might cause some distance at times, but their beliefs will not, and they will still be loved, regardless. Someone who is truly with Jesus Christ has true inner peace and "accepts" everyone with love.

[Tiassa]

Skye--

When I was in high school, my mother used to ask me why I surrounded myself with the kids I did ... she saw them as the rabble of the school, each with far too many issues to be a positive influence in my life. I thought a good while about that before I could tell her, "Look at that girl there. When she smiles, she means it."

It was the best I could do.

But such things escape words sometimes. So it often is with music, it seems. The direst moments of a waking soul are often its most fruitful; it gives me this goofy glow to know I'm not the only one who sees various art forms as having tangible sway in the human spirit. Er--I have to stop using so many damn words. :)

* * * * *

Truestory--

TTFN--ever watch Winnie the Pooh? TTFN--Ta Ta For Now ... :)

--Tiassa


------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

[Flash]

TS,

In order for me to be able to better answer your question about the experiences which you have had, it would be helpful if you could describe how this spirit manifests itself to you, to share specifically its anti-Christ teachings and also to share what it is that leads you to believe that its fruits are love, joy, peace, etc...

Well without getting into details...let me put it this way... the things in which the Spirit of Truth has taught me just does not consist of antichrist teaching. The Spirit has also taught me the importance of and how to let go of the things which I have learned
in the past. This is to curve the influence
of what outside sources may have had on my life. Not that some of the things which I have learned has been negative..but, so I will know in my heart that which is pure..then grow on top of that...this is what also helps to distinguish the valuable things from the crap. Truth is wayyyy important..and as it is learned one can advance spiritually. This is just an example of the things which I have been taught.
Also, I want to add that the when the Spirit of Truth is speaking to me...there is such peace, love, and joy...it's soooo POWERFUL..
I feel it all through me. Now, with that in mind, there is no way it could be an evil spirit...the very thought of that makes me laugh and laugh...
Hope this better helps you to answer my question in the previous post...

[SkyeBlue]

Tiassa -

I know what you mean!

(There we go, short and sweet :) )

[truestory]

Flash,


...it would be helpful if you could describe how this spirit manifests itself to you, to share specifically its anti-Christ teachings and also to share what it is that leads you to believe that its fruits are love, joy, peace, etc...

If the spirit which guides you will not allow you to share these things, then I understand.

However, your response did not help, it only confirmed what is already apparent... Sorry.

[Oxygen]

And now, the subject of my relationship with my father from the first-person perspective.

Although I am an atheist, I still enjoy the discussion. Faithful, agnostic, atheist,...it all boils down to one's viewpoint about religion. My father did not stop talking to me entirely. He simply stopped discussing religion with me. Even when I tried to bring the subject up he'd wave me off. Once he said "It doesn't matter to you because you're an atheist." I took great offense to being told what does and doesn't matter to me. Rather than push a fight, I walked away.

These Sunday morning talks were more than just a discussion of religion. They were communication with the greatest man in my life. I worship the sea he sailed on. I listen, enthralled by his not-so-daring but usually pretty funny wartime exploits. (He doesn't talk about the Jap bunker he took on so much as the time he accidentally hit the battle alarm when they were supposed to be running silent. He tends to paint himself more as Beetle Bailey than John Wayne.) This is the man who taught me how to ride a bike, how to defend myself, bought me my first car, and remodeled my living room when all I wanted was a paint job. He gave me the skills necessary to survive in any economic situation, from what markets to watch when the money is good to how to scratch up a job when the money is bad. Because of this man and all I have learned sitting at his side I will never go hungry.

And then, because of God, I was made to feel like nothing in this man's eyes. Sunday mornings became worthless. I stopped popping in for coffee. I could hear the deafening silence next door in his kitchen. This went on for quite awhile. Even when I did decide to visit, we'd just sit there in stony silence. I wanted my father back so desperately that I played the one card that should never be played; I asked him to choose. My life was going to be walked without God, either way. It didn't have to be walked without my father. He didn't have to leave God behind, he had only to respect my opinions as I respected his.

That was the Sunday when I was pronounced to be more important than God, Jesus, or any religion.

I admit, my own pride and pain kept me away at first, but when I tried to re-open the lines of communication, I found tham closed on the other side. I guess he eventually saw just how much my beliefs meant to me, as much as his did to him. Things are better now, I'm still an atheist, he still isn't, and I feel I saved my father from the jaws of blind faith.

I'd love to get him on this message board, but he's a jinx to any computer. He's not a techno-phobe, he's more techno-uneasy (despite the fact that he owned his own TV repair shop back in the 70s).

[Flash]

TS,

your response did not help, it only confirmed what is already apparent...

How so??????????????

[SkyeBlue]

Truestory -

Sorry to dig up old stuff, but I just noticed your quote in a post earlier this thread;

"Skye will love this... there was even a point when I was a young teenager, working as a cashier in a local grocery store, when I developed a "crush" on an "older man," the 18 year-old assistant manager. One day, when in the library, a book caught my attention which had an advertisement on the cover, something along the lines of, "How to make that special someone love you." I took the book home, read it, and even managed to get a lock of hair from my special someone. He was a little hesitant at first, but eventually, he was willing to let me cut the sample off. I never did go through with that prescribed "ritual," because he ended up asking me out on a date. "

Actually, Truestory, I'm very glad you didn't do the ritual. This kind of spell is against what I believe is right. Coercing someone to love you with a spell is just plain manipulation, and will bring nothing but negative energies back to you. Not trying to pick on you, but I just wanted to make that clear - I don't condone these types of spells!! Very important!: Spells should't be cast against someone, only FOR someone and with their explicit permission. If I had to catagorize the spell you (fortunately) did not cast, I would have to consider that to be "black" magick. (ie done to force someone to do something without their will) There ARE certain types of love spells that are acceptable, if you're interested we can talk about that, but I'm at least TRYING to stay on topic (for a change!). :)

[truestory]

Thanks, Skye - I, too am glad that I did not participate in the ritual. Who knows? If I had, I could be going to hell in a hand-basket right now! ;)

Anyway, I understand and appreciate your position and clarification of the difference between good spells and bad spells. Please let me add a disclaimer...

Kids, do not try this at home!

[Oxygen]

Awww! You'd enjoy the ride, at least. We're partying like crazy over here! :D

Actually, I admit I am guilty of practicing candle magic. Candles are just so relaxing, and I know it goes against all logic and reason, but if your mind associates a particular color with a particular emotion (as has been proven), then what harm is it, spiritually or academically, if I light a candle that brings to mind someone I care for? Or if light one that calms me and relaxes me because of its particular hue? Is it magic or psychology? Eh, who cares? If it feels good, do it.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

[666]

Truestory,


Someone who has found true inner peace through Jesus Christ, loves unconditionally, no matter what. Someone who has found true inner peace through Jesus Christ does not "harbor" resentments towards other human beings regardless of the other person's behavior, sins or beliefs.

As far as someone who is truly with Jesus Christ is concerned, another person's opposing belief will never truly get in the way of their relationship. The other person's behavior might cause some distance at times, but their beliefs will not, and they will still be loved, regardless. Someone who is truly with Jesus Christ has true inner peace and "accepts" everyone with love.

If we can't accept ourselves we can not accept anyone eles. This includes Jesus Christ. The cure all is not faith in God/Jesus, but with ourselves. Learn who you are, accept who you are. If you don't like what you see change what you can and accept that which you can not change. This doesn't mean do what you want. It means do your best to keep from doing what it is you do not like or feel is wrong. I may be wrong, but morals are not learned they are a part of you. Right and wrong is with us from the day we are born. The only people who can not see what is right from are those who do not try to hide what they have done wrong. Those who hide know what they have done wrong. In a nust shell this is what I belive in. Not the magic of a false God, but the magic of the soul.



------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[truestory]

666,

O.K... Big disagreement time... but I still love ya! :)

I have seen too many times when "mob" rules... Where people who know what they are doing is "wrong" feel "comfortable" doing it anyway and don't hide what they are doing because "everyone else" is doing it.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 12, 2000).]

[truestory]

Oxygen! Are you dancing?!

Yeah, there seems to be a physiological affect which certain scents have on people. Personally, I like the natural scent of juniper in a breeze.

Aaaahhhhhh!!!

[SkyeBlue]

Oxygen,

I see nothing wrong with using candle magick! (Woah, big surprise, right! :D ) As long as you're not trying to force someone to do something against their will, go for it! For some reason, the scent of sandalwood always reminds me of my husband, and clove reminds me of my best friend. So if I'm feeling depressed or lonely, I could dab a bit of each scent on my wrists, close my eyes, and just bask in the love I feel for them, and from them. If I associated a color with each of them, I would feel no qualms about lighting a candle for each of them instead. THAT is the kind of love spell that will warm your heart, and bring positive vibrations to you and your loved ones.

To me, juniper is a very male scent, I might use that one, or maybe pine to make me think of my father. Mint seems feminine to me, but for my mom Verbena is the scent. My Grandmother is honeysuckle. My mother-in-law would be mint, I suppose, because nothing is coming to mind for her. :) Does that mean the scents actually are doing something? Not really, it's the associations in my mind that do the trick. Mint is also a healthy smell for me. So if I wanted my mom to get better from an illness, I might smoulder some verbena first, then some mint with more verbena - essence of my mother, then essence of her mixed with health. I would ask permission first, of course, but I'm sure she would give it. Hopefully, these symbolic scents would help me 'program' the energies I would then send to her aid. And that, folks, is the basics of spellcasting! :)

[truestory]

Hello Skye,

A while back, you were concerned about breaking the news to your family (parents?) that you decided to take up witchcraft... Have you told your Mom yet?

[SkyeBlue]

True' -

Yup, I sure did! I was surprised at how well she took it. She did ask a few questions, but on the whole she agrees with most of the beliefs I put forth. She herself is moving away from Catholicism and more towards Buddhism, which I am sure helps her see things from my point of view. She hasn't actually asked for a spell yet, but she has hinted around a little bit that she might even ask me to do some "work" for her. So, it seems my fears were unfounded afterall. I have yet to break it to my father, but that's mainly because I haven't had a chance to see him face to face in a little while. I'm not worried about his reactions though, he and I have always been able to communicate well. I'm sure he will understand. :) I am very grateful that they are accepting, I have a hard time keeping secrets from them - I really hate doing it. I CAN, if I have to, but I'd really rather be out in the open, instead of hiding in the broom closet. :D

[Tiassa]

Truestory--

You wrote that some scents have a psychological effect.

I just wanted to chime in and let you know that it's not just your perception of that effect. I have read it asserted that smell is the most directly applied sense--vision, touch, and hearing all require certain translations of the signal received and sent to the brain. Taste, as it was explained, is like smell, except that it's dependent on the olfactory.

But it was explained that, in cases of memory, your mind can play all sorts of tricks on your other senses, but the only trick it can play on smell is to make you mistake one smell for another in your consciousness. Apparently, the smell sense is the actual chemical/electrical process taking place, with very little translation. The signal is direct and raw and physical, so that, when we think back on past loves, say--I might not recall the color of her hair quite right, but I will not forget the scent of that perfume. I may not recall the exact pitch of her voice, but when I come across another human being whose body generates extremely similar scents, I will not be wrong in recalling that I know that scent.

Sum total: Apparently, smell is the most powerful sense we have. I, too, enjoy juniper, for probably many of the same reasons. We might use different words to express them, but the underlying function of the reasons probably look quite similar.

For the record--as a general note--sandalwood, cedar, and pine are powerful incenses for me. Juniper I prefer before moving to sage. Jasmine's okay, but my grandmother wore tons of jasmine, so I have this association between jasmine and older women in my head.

Oh ... while we're on smells: take a pack of vanilla incense, mix it with a pack of sandalwood, and store it in a cedar box. Forget about it for a month, and you've got yourself one heck of an incense ... I've never been able to get someone to mix that one just right.

Anyway, thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

[666]

Truestory,

I did say "in a nut shell".

There all ways exceptions when dealing with a large gruop of people. On indivdual level people are very inteligant. As a whole pretty dumb. How do feel about the rest of post, the accepting yourself before being able to accept anyone eles?

------------------
My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.

[truestory]

tiassa,

Yes, I have read relatively much about the "physiological" effects of scents.

Both you and Skye have mentioned sandalwood. Right now, I have no conception of that scent.

Although I am sure that natural cedar is nice, since my Mom used to also keep moth-balls in her cedar chest, cedar has lost its appeal for me. I also have an aversion to vanilla... Probably due to the fact that my Mother also used to try to keep us all clean looking, no matter what, to the point of wiping our sticky vanilla ice-cream hands and faces in public with a "spit-dampened" tissue once the previously-fresh facecloth was spent... yuck!!!

Given that, I doubt your prescribed mixture would sit well with me... juniper is good though! :)

[truestory]

666,

How do I feel about the rest of your post? O.K., here goes, my friend:


If we can't accept ourselves we can not accept anyone eles. This includes Jesus Christ.

Here, I agree with you... Especially when it comes to accepting Jesus Christ. We must accept ourselves for what we are and that is a sinner, like everyone else, before we can accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour.


The cure all is not faith in God/Jesus, but with ourselves. Learn who you are, accept who you are.

Here, it depends on what you consider the "cure"... If you are speaking of personal spiritual salvation, the acceptance of Jesus Christ is the only way. If you are speaking about having to accept yourself for who and what you are before you can accept others, then, I agree. If you are speaking about true inner peace which enables you to love "everyone" regardless of their sins, then one must be in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.


If you don't like what you see change what you can and accept that which you can not change. This doesn't mean do what you want. It means do your best to keep from doing what it is you do not like or feel is wrong.

I have never met a human being who is or was able to do what is right all the time except for Jesus Christ. The rest of us are all sinners. However, when we truly walk with Jesus Christ, we are lead away from even the temptation to sin.


I may be wrong, but morals are not learned they are a part of you. Right and wrong is with us from the day we are born.

You are probably not sure of this because there is an age old argument over nature vs nurture in "society." Consider this: An infant is born. This infant is nurtured and given much love and attention. So much so, that they consider themselves the center of the universe. When they cry, they are picked up. Even though the infant cannot speak, the parent assesses the infants particular need at the present moment and accomodates the need... whether it be the need to be fed, changed, covered, uncovered, bathed, hugged, rocked or just the need to feel the loving touch of another human, etc... as the infant grows to be a toddler, and is playing with other toddlers, the child now exhibits an unwillingness to share toys with other children. Is that because the child was born knowing that it was morally wrong to "share"? Or, is it because the child has been nurtured to the point of believing that he/she is the center of the universe and has just not yet been "taught" to share? One who believes that "sharing" is morally good might argue that the child was born with the inherent knowledge that sharing was right, but that they were taught to believe that they were the center of the universe through previous experience. Another, who believes that "sharing" is not necessarily a moral obligation might argue that the child was born with this inherent knowledge and that the previous nurturing was not the cause of their unwillingness to share.

So, was this child born with the natural knowledge that "sharing" was not necessarily right? Or, did this child come to believe erroneously, through nurturing, that the world was here to accomodate their needs? Mankind has been debating about these types of questions for centuries.

If we consider allowing a third party with higher knowledge to settle the argument, and if we allow ourselves to consider the totality of the human being who was born... that is, mind, body and soul... then we might consider what God has told us about such matters of the soul... That we are born with original sin... and that we must "learn" to love each other in the Spirit of Jesus Christ, which includes sharing.

As for the rest of your previous post, well, I believe I already covered it... :)

Nice chatting with you again, 666!!!

BTW - You might want to comment on your name under the thread about the law of threes. :D





[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 14, 2000).]

[Flash]

TS,

I have never met a human being who is or was able to do what is right all the time except for Jesus Christ

Ummmm... you have met Jesus Christ????????????????? Yeah, right. :)

[truestory]

Flash,

Of course I did not meet Jesus Christ while He dwelled amongst us in the flesh, however I live with Him everyday.



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Your justice I kept not hid within my heart; your faithfulness and your salvation I have spoken of; I have made no secret of your kindness and your truth in the vast assembly. (Psalm 40:11)

[Flash]

Yeah, that's what I thought LOL

Hmmmmmm..new signature????