freedom does it exists?

[yumyum]

Does true freedom really exists? by true freedom I mean the ability to just be. can we as humans ever cut all ties with the material, social, and emotional world and just be? Maybe I cant explain true freedom because Ive never experienced it. Now that I think about if you were truly free what would you do I mean how do you just be and or exists? damn this complacted.(avril lavigne plays in back ground)

Yall get what im saying. ok this makes sence in my head. Maybe im just not explaining it well. this kind of reminds me of this quote:

"The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones, free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and reveling in joy."

[Lucysnow]

Are you speaking of a kind of Nirvana? To be cut off socially, emotionally and materiallt is DEATH! To cut all ties is DEATH! Assuming someone attempted to live in an empty room he would shortly become neurotic, then psychotic...then he would pray for DEATH!

[yumyum]

Are you speaking of a kind of Nirvana?

yeah kinda sorta

To be cut off socially, emotionally and materiallt is DEATH!

well then prehaps when have found the answer to our question. the only true freedom is in death. I still do not know.


Assuming someone attempted to live in an empty room he would shortly become neurotic, then psychotic...then he would pray for DEATH!

then it is settled death is the only true freedom. upon this conclusion I will impale
my self with a really big pointy stick.

[Lucysnow]

Well I hope you did not misunderstand my response. I do not equate Freedom with Death. Freedom to me can only come with choices the freedom to choose between this or that. There is no choice in Death.

[spookz]

Assuming someone attempted to live in an empty room he would shortly become neurotic, then psychotic...then he would pray for DEATH!

how do you know this?

[Lucysnow]

PS: Check out U. G Krishnamurti (Not J Krishnamurti) I think you can find all his books offered freely on the web. He made the comment that the state of Nirvana is death because to have no mental stimulus at all is being clinically dead. Why nothingness anyway?

[Lucysnow]

I tried it.

[yumyum]

Well I hope you did not misunderstand my response. I do not equate Freedom with Death. Freedom to me can only come with choices the freedom to choose between this or that. There is no choice in Death.

I know you didnt mean it that way I was just messing around. I dont mean like freedom to pick between this or that I mean freedom beyond the morals and limts of man. a state where everthing just is what it is and nothing more. a place where nothing matters.


PS: Check out U. G Krishnamurti

will do.

[Lucysnow]

I do think there is freedom from morals. i think that is what Marquis de Sade was expressing and I have often longed to be in a place where nothing matters. I mean I wonder about the people who seem to be in such a space. I'm afraid I am too human and feel things too deeply to achieve a state where nothing matters. Have you ever been close to such a state?

[yumyum]

I'm afraid I am too human and feel things too deeply to achieve a state where nothing matters.

this reminds me of what nietzsche said in his book human all to human. a truer statement has never been said humans are just all too human.

Have you ever been close to such a state?

ive tried to be but I think that in the end its impossiable to ever really be that free althought I whish I could be.

[Lucysnow]

Me too I wish I could be free of thought. At times I wish I were free of feeling but then what would we be? What would be the reason to do anything, to act? There would be no impetuos. Anyway if we did not think we could not create and if we did not feel there would be no passion in our lives.

[yumyum]

At times I wish I were free of feeling but then what would we be? What would be the reason to do anything, to act? There would be no impetuos. Anyway if we did not think we could not create and if we did not feel there would be no passion in our lives.


well if you would be truly free you would feel no impluse to create or have passion you would be in a eternal state of exists. Is there really a real reason to do anything now? the only reason we feel
the need to do anything because we are not free.

[Lucysnow]

Ahhh...I get it! Your really good at this kind of stuff. I guess that is what the eastern mystics mean by complete freedom. Do you believe in God and if you do, do you think God would be without experience, I mean just without impulse?

:confused: Now that I ask the question I wonder. I mean if there were a god with no impulse then there would be no creation at all, no life. Right?

[Lucysnow]

Dearprudence

I really like you.:)

[Dr Lou Natic]

Originally posted by yumyum
"The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones, free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and reveling in joy."
Do you understand what this is saying? Freedom could not exist in society, to be wild is the only true way to be free. Rules and laws could not be in a free world.
Freedom exists, look at wild animals, humans are the only animals that actually choose to not be free. We are more concerned with our comfort then our freedom.
Unfortunately you can't have both.

[yumyum]

Freedom could not exist in society, to be wild is the only true way to be free. Rules and laws could not be in a free world.

yes I do relize that. that was one of the points I was trying to make.


humans are the only animals that actually choose to not be free. We are more concerned with our comfort then our freedom.

I think thats kinda of sad that we choose comfort over freedom. I think it may be to late for the human race to be free, now we are too worried about how we feel. I dont think we have the capicty to be free anymore. The only way to be free is too be born free.


Do you believe in God and if you do, do you think God would be without experience, I mean just without impulse?

do I belive in god, no.

[Lucysnow]

We are born free.

[Clockwood]

Freedom is a relative thing. The only completely free being would be god, should such a being exist. I, for instance, am not free to break the laws of physics.

In worldly terms I guess freedom means that no other human is going to try to stop you from doing something. THat can happen though it is rare.

[yumyum]

We are born free.

yeah ok how long does it take for them to start molding you and makeing your wear a mask for society? as soon as you leave the womb. I could argue that now days all people born dont have the ability to be free anymore its just not there in some people. I cant prove that so im not going to argue that. Then you could say that one of our main primal insticts is to be free and its always going to be there but I cant prove that either.

[Lucysnow]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yumyum
"The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones, free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and reveling in joy."

With all men "shouting and killing and reveling in joy" well it looks like that this would be an environment where freedom would exist only for the brute. Maybe we are living like the "great old ones" but just don't know it. I mean American forces went into Iraq 'shouting and killing and reveling in Joy' and sixteen men took two planes through two towers "with laws and morals thrown aside".

People ARE free to do what they want they just don't because they are not willing to live with the consequences. If you are willing to live with the consequences then all action is free. I think people choose 'comfort' because it is so much easier. If these 'great old ones' were having such a grand old time then they would not have allowed themselves to become christianized.

[yumyum]

I mean American forces went into Iraq 'shouting and killing and reveling in Joy'

ah yes but do you think they were free? I sure all of the pepole that were affected by this war had some feelings about it. To be truly free you must feel nothing and only be.

sixteen men took two planes through two towers "with laws and morals thrown aside".

they threw none of there laws and morals aside they thought that was right and in there mind it was.


People ARE free to do what they want they just don't because they are not willing to live with the consequences. If you are willing to live with the consequences then all action is free.


Im talking about a higher state of freedom one were there are no consequences becaue there is nothing but being. and as of now in an unfree state nothing is free because everything has a consequence even if its not bad


If these 'great old ones' were having such a grand old time then they would not have allowed themselves to become christianized.

man has never been truly free he just creates his own illusion of it because he is insecure and because of these insecureitys man also created religion.

by the way I wasnt really going by that quote for any thing I just think it sounds cool.;)

[Lucysnow]

To yumyum:

I see your point on both examples I gave. It is a powerful notion action without consequence, no thought only being. Do you think we all get there eventually even if it is the last second of life?

[dickbaby]

Nobody's mentioned the 'm' word yet...


...meditation.


You might want to try this little exercise for one day, as a kind of freedom litmus test:

for one whole day, from waking to sleep, try to unbelieve everything you have habitually assumed and 'known' to be true, and then re-examine it in the light of the evidence around you, but more importantly, using your intuition to guide you.

And I mean everything. You don't have to REALLY believe the opposite today of what has served you well enough for perhaps years, but seriously examine the implications of it.

Like (and here's an oxymoron if ever there was one) a decent lawyer could argue both sides of a case from the evidence around.

Throws up some interesting observations - well, did for me anyway.

You might need a big plate of freedom fries after this one though

Peace

:)

[Lucysnow]

Thanx dickbaby! I will post back the results.:)

[dickbaby]

You are most welcome.

I should add though, that since trying this I emigrated and now live in the mountains of SE Asia!

Peace

[dickbaby]

lucysnow, some very wise words (paraphrased, and not mine) that may be of comfort to you.

'Freedom is a state of mind, just like heaven or hell. Free will is everywhere and in everything. It is one of the basic principles of the universe'.

Ra - The Law of One

Peace

[pharmakon]

If you're in to meditation, ponder this for a while:

who exists to be free?

Or even just: who exists?

Koans are phrases. Exit from samsara. End of discursive nonsense.

[Lucysnow]

To Dickbaby:


One of these days you will have to tell me how you ended up in the mountains of s. e. asia.

I will try the meditation.

PEACE

[dickbaby]

...a combination of plane, bus, holistic travelling and marijuana

:m:

Peace

[spookz]

Originally posted by dickbaby
You are most welcome.

I should add though, that since trying this I emigrated and now live in the mountains of SE Asia!

Peace

nice, but i imagine any mountain anywhere would do, no?

[Lucysnow]

Spookz:

Why does it have to be in the mountains? Shouldn't anywhere we are when were there count just as well?

[spookz]

what kind of freedom? of will? of morality? of being? of spirit?
are these valid distinctions or are they ultimately the same?
when we rationalise freedom, would it still be freedom?

Let’s imagine a player in a casino, as he gets ready to toss the dice on the table. If, on the exact moment the dice separate from the hand of the player, we could have —like Laplace’s Demon— a complete knowledge of the circumstances affecting the dice (namely, initial position, force of the throw, direction, distance that separates them from the table, weight, characteristics of the materials, atmospheric pressure, position of the moon and any other relevant data), we could predict with absolute certainty the number that will be rolled.

Before the dice leave the player's hand, the number that will be rolled remains unknown because we do not know, and have no possible way of knowing, with what strength the player will toss the dice. We are supposing that the decision of the individual is indeterminate, and more precisely, that it is quantifiably indeterminate, in other words, that it is submitted to Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle. This doesn’t mean that the final result is uncaused; once the aleatory process is concluded, the result does have a cause, but even so, ex ante, the result is unpredictable.(9) But what interests us at this moment is the fact that in a scenario of quantic indeterminacy, where results depend on randomness, the will is of course automatically excluded.

It is therefore clear that even in the realm of indeterminism, where enthusiasts of quantum mechanics thought they were glimpsing at the solution,(10) free will has no room, and we find ourselves in a similar nightmare as the one of physical determinism. From determinate automatons we have passed to indeterminate ones.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/lujan1.html

[Lucysnow]

Thanx Spookz. I will read the article again and respond later.:)

[spookz]

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
Freedom exists, look at wild animals, humans are the only animals that actually choose to not be free. We are more concerned with our comfort then our freedom.
Unfortunately you can't have both.

so lets work it out. what freedom does a animal have that i dont? you say i choose to be in bonds? what are they? comfort/freedom??

i eat cake!!

[redhills]

"Freedom is that instant between when someone tells you to do something and when you decide how to respond." -- Jeffery Borenstein

[moementum7]

YES YOU ARE FREE.AT ANY MOMENT YOU ARE FREE TO DECIDE WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE.HOWEVER. YOU CAN NEVER BE FREE FROM CONSEQUENCES.SO IF YOU SHOULD DECIDE TO LIVE THEN THEYRE ARE EXACT ACTIONS YOU MUST TAKE IN ORDER TO SURVIVE, THRIVE OR WHAT EVER THE CASE MIGHT BE.TO LIVE OR DIE IS YOUR ONLY TRUE FREEDOM.SOME PEOPLE CHOOSE TO BLOW THEMSELVES AWAY WITH A SHOT GUN.THIS IS THE CHOICE THEY HAVE MADE BASED ON THEYRE VALUES, HOWEVER RATIONAL OR IRRATIONAL THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN. SO YES...YOU ARE FREE:)DECIDE

[Lucysnow]

To Spookz:

I just finished reading Metaphysical freedom (volitionism and determinism). I don't know if you have ever read Tom Stoppards's play 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead', which I now view in an entirely new philosophical light, but if you haven't I think you would find it very interesting.

Anyway question: How does the modern study of Chaos (order masquerading as randomness) change, if at all, determinism and indeterminism? If a unpredictability can arise from a simple deterministic system then doesn't that mean determinism and indeterminism work hand in hand? And it is not really a question of either one or the other? Please explain in simple terms my head hurts enough already!

Actually I don't really think it makes a difference because determined or not I still have to decide what the hell I'm going to wear tomorrow.

[armydog]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lucysnow
[B]Me too I wish I could be free of thought.....

If one has no thought(unthinking?) then how would one even know they exist? I think, therefor I am. I mean, doesn't one have to have thought to be aware that one exist?

P.S. I really like the way you think. I read several of your postings and strings on the other sub postings, I think your points are very lucid and logical. :)

[airavata]

total freedom in the manner you describe? no. for most people no. we always have commitments- to other people, to other issues. we cannot ever be truely seperated from society. some achieve this however. there's this guy from australia who was an atheist, but after the death of his mother he started believing in god, and he now lives somewhere in the mountains of ethiopia. that i think is the closest we'll ever come to being totally free. apart from death ofcourse.

[Lucysnow]

To Armydog:

Thank you Armydog for the nice comments:)

I agree with you, we do need our mental facilties in order to 'be'. I guess I really meant a state where my thoughts are all focused on one thing at one time. I guess like a one pointed meditation where I am not being distracted by other useless thoughts which pertain to the past or the future or having to do with self-doubt etc.

I have experienced this on occasion when fully engaged (one pointed thinking) in an activity, but it sucks for instance when you are crafting a story lets say and the mind drifts and thinks "Will other people think this is good? Will they publish this? Am I any good? Does this phrase make sense? blah, blah, blah, blah"

I mean these thoughts are meaningless to the process and hinder concentration etc. So it really is not a state of non thought I desire. Thanks for pointing that out, I do not think I really considered what it was truly troubling me about the mind.

[armydog]

Lucysnow,

O.k., I get the picture now! I will also agree with you on the "mind drift", if I can use that term. I too have that happen to me when I'm trying to focus on a certain item or thought.......I'll catch myself and think "what the heck does that have to do with what I'm thinking about anyway!" Now that I'm thinking about that, it seems kind of funny that it happens......well, sometimes it's funny.

[Lucysnow]

To Armydog:

Yea it is funny! It's like we think we have all this freedom of will and yet we cannot even control our own thoughts! (well I should say I cannot control my own thoughts, I am sure there are people out there who have taken control of command central)

[armydog]

Lucysnow,

Is it that even though we are focusing one thing, sometime our mind, which is processing all sorts of information subconsciously as we know, spills a little over into the conscious relm of thought .

It would be nice to have a better control over the spillage though.

[Dr Lou Natic]

The fact there is such a thing as prison means we don't have freedom. The fact we have such a thing as ropes and cages means animals no longer have freedom either.
Killing someone or something is not taking away their freedom, restricting them by locking them up or tethering them is taking away their freedom.
For a free world "punishment" would have to be dealt out only by those offended by the crime. The mafia tried to live by a free system but police kept getting involved.
I'm not saying our current system is worse than a free system, its just that it isn't one, don't say it is.
Of course we have the freedom to make choices but that alone is not absolute freedom.