The scary part is how quietly the erosion of your rights has been occurring. We heap criticism and abuse on the wild-eyed Islamic mullahs abroad, while encouraging wild-eyed Christian mullahs at home. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Peace.
Goofyfish I really believe that all of this "faith based" hoopla promoted by the Bush administration is an underhanded way of maintaining the support and vote of the religious right. A "faith based" anything will only be used as long as it is politically convenient.
blurs? I don't see how an argument could be made that a seperation of church and state still exists given this. I'd say it abolishes it. And how does one distinguish between proseltyzing and using religious stories for inspiration? That seems like a *very* fine line to me. Are there going to be govt inspectors keeping an eye on these job trainings? This is a fairly major development in my opinion. The next step may be to have government RUN programs using religion. I also think that this federal money will be restricted to christian (and possibly Jewish) groups. No way they're going to let the Nation of Islam get federal money for religious job trainings.
Faith based descisions are every day facts of life in Europe. Now the U.S. is just joining the bandwagon. Thanks to you republicans.
no prisme ,that´s not right..... what european country does in your opinion makes faith-based decisions ? i only know one country in the western world that do such things.... it´s the usa with it´s often reported mix of religion and goverment ! shall i remember some sentences like "god bless america" ? only some islam countries mix religion and goverment more than the USA.......
And Ireland, which for many years had the religious right's agenda enshrined in the constitution. Thankfully, we've woken up and that's being changed. Odd to see us making more progress in the enlightened direction than the US...
Could backfire While I think, on the one hand, this is another round of a Christian deciding that it just isn't good enough unless equality gives Christianity favoritism° this move could still blow up in the administration's face. A (censored)° but necessary religious digression I have a number of books on my shelf that I've never read all the way through, which I bought because it seemed like a good idea at the time. The last couple days I've been peeking through a volume that has followed me for eight years at least. Ellen Cannon Reed's The Witches' Tarot: The Witches' Qabala, Book 2 (St. Paul: Llewellyn, 1993) is a volume which examines the benefit post-Celtic witchcraft might gain from an examination of Qabalism, and is intended to accompany a tarot deck I've never used.° But I wanted to point out that, as the book relies heavily on the Sefer Yetzirah, it does count as an examination of sacred text; certes it's not the Torah or such, but even I hold the Sefer Yetzirah sacred because of the sheer volume of the thing.° I wish to examine short excerpts of one chapter of this book, which covers the 32nd Path, from Malkuth to Yesod. I'll skip the association table; it's short and useless except to the cultish aspect of the Craft. But Cannon begins with an excerpt from the Sefer Yetzirah: Now, there's a good amount of base superstition right there, so we can leave it aside and not dwell on whether one is supposed to take that literally; you're already working inside a period-specific encyclopedia of superstitions. Let it go; if they could have seen the rest, they would have counted them. Let that be a lesson to be applied in all religious and philosophical examinations. It's the interpretive that counts. Now, here's where the digression (hopefully) becomes relevant. The chapter is littered with very simply-expressed interpretations of almost randomly-assembled philosophical tidbits°: Now we come to what hopefully becomes the payoff paragraphs. To start with, functionally, I can say that the bit about the subconscious and ignorance didn't strike me the first time I read it°, at least in part because those ideas were already taking hold in my conscience. But I also know the feeling that seeing those words evoked; I knew I was reading something that had been neatly filed away as important in some respect years ago. In all my time at Sciforums, for instance, I would never have attributed Ellen Cannon Reed as a vital part of what eventually became my paradigmatic assertion that God as an idea represents human ignorance°, yet here I am, years after first reading this phrase, and having a twinge of warmth: I know you. Hi. It's been a while. (Wave daintily at the book, smile as if gazing upon my child ... it's an associative response for sure.) Believe me, even I'm surprised, because I was just looking for something to read while smoking a cigarette on a pleasant but not beautiful day. And the synchronicity occurs in relation to the present topic, as it struck me while smoking that the simplicity of what I was reading was the Achilles heel of this state promotion of religion. Seriously, the minor alternative religious associations (witchcraft, New Age, &c) have a serious inroad here. Consider the addict, seeking assistance from a faith-based organization (FBO): - FBO #1: You are a sinner, but God helps those that help themselves. You must give your heart to God and trust in faith that He will save you. - FBO#2: What is happening here is a form of common ignorance; simply there is something wrong and nobody knows what it is. We need to figure out exactly why you're (smoking crack, shooting heroin, gambling excessively, fill in the blank). What do you say to someone seeking help? What in the Bible works? I'm curious because promises of salvation in the afterlife, threats of condemnation, cajoling, menacing, and the general state of Christian evangelism (e.g. FBO#1) is exploitative in that it trades one vice for another. In the case of FBO#2, one can delve into an entire Universe of symbolism that is more accessible. "Why are you a sinner?" vs. "Let's find out what the yucky things are that interfere with your getting healthy." I think Bush opens a gap that allows typically non-evangelistic religions to employ their ideas in a manner that, in the hands of Christians, is generally seen as evangelical. Because FBO#1 is going to evangelize for conversion, as it always does, while FBO#2, to which evangelism will be awkward at best, will be left functioning in a more cooperative and less authoritarian environment. And since you can't compel an addict to quit without the addict deciding to quit ... well? Authoritarian relationships are often stressful to the subordinate--e.g. the sinner. What happens when mystical branches step up and essentially "distract" an addict away from a problem? What will happen when a league of witches opens a Wiccan-based shelter for battered women? In all honesty, we'll have to see, but whenever it gets around to happening. But there is a huge potential here for this to backfire against any notion of advancing Christianity in society. There are simpler, more attractive ways to communicate with people than the fixed, musty, and generally disdainful appeals to the sinner to "save himself" from the evil he has chosen. Simply: So holding a job stresses a guy to the point that he has to buy hookers or beat his wife or gamble away his car or "reach for the rail"; any of these vices will add to the stress°, and now we want to threaten the guy's eternal soul? Of course, I have high hopes for Rev. Scott Sloan, but he's merely a cartoon character; so much for real life. Nonetheless, there are a number of mystical/philosophical associations that properly count as religions somewhere on paper that will have an invitation to receive federal funds to do that voodoo that they do so well. What happens in twenty years when people realize that there's a reason these religions are so popular among recovering alcoholics? While the idea of buttressing Christianity might seem attractive to a superstitious evangelical with political authority, the odds are that non-Christian ideas will see a minor jump in marketshare, giving them a more legitimate toehold. Personally, I think twenty atheists with a library of holy texts could probably help people control a number of personal vices. Imagine, cold philosophy offered from childishly-painted religions. Perhaps we'd have to call in a troop of agnostics first, to lay the foundation and methodology for the atheists. I don't know. But this "scaling back" of restrictions on the operation of FBO's could prove to actually increase the voice of non-Christian America. And that, I admit, would be a very good thing, not only for Americans, but also for the sakes of our international neighbors who stand to suffer whenever Americans undergo religious fits. And I hope the political value of such a condition is apparent to all. Notes: ° favoritism - Bush already lives by a precedent in which nepotism equals equality, money buys justice, and God is Christian and prefers Americans to Arabs ("God is on our side!") ° censored - the word was "short", but who the hell am I kidding? ° tarot deck - Would you believe the deck is called The Wtiches' Tarot? Nice and easy, that; it's a simplistic deck suited more to feel-good New Age divination than any serious meditation. ° volume of Sefer Yetzirah - I'm too lazy to look it up, but in English the thing runs something like 32 volumes, including esoteric correspondences, occult revelations, and much philosophical reflection. It's a major headache to try to read. ° seven planets - Let's see ... Sun, Moon, Mercury (I think) Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn ... again, I'm too lazy to look it up. It's the same seven that appear in Simon's Necronomicon, which volume I mention because people are more likely to have that lying around than the Sefer Yetzirah. ° tidbits - The correspondences, though useless outside the cult aspect, are actually somewhat intelligible for the simple fact that they rely on traditional interpretations not specifically Qabalist, Gardnerian, or otherwise. But just read the excerpts; they're thematic, to be sure, but snagged from all over. ° first time I read it - I found a bookmark, composed of a folded page with the ten sephira arranged according to the Tree of Life, directly amid the next chapter. That corresponds with my memory that I never really read the whole book. ° God as ignorance (recap) - the idea of God becomes so enormous that only a twist on Anselm will suffice; "God is that which is greater than that which we can conceive." Or something approximately. The twist on Anselm takes place when we pause to consider that this argument pretty much eliminates any useful discussion about what God is or isn't. Typically, religions deal with essential questions that our intellects can provide no rational answer for: Why do I exist? What is the purpose of life? In this sense, God can be said to be the sum of all our ignorance. To illustrate more clearly requires pages. ° add to the stress - Hookers: money, VD. Domestic violence: police, possibly jail. Gambling: I actually know a guy who gambled away the family car. Nose candy: Well, you're mellow when your heart finally explodes ... there's also money considerations, and also the strange wondering at the decay taking place in other parts of one's life. You'll notice I haven't even mentioned the idea of guilt or conscience. So let's toss that on there. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! P.S. - Thank you, my head officially hurts now. Must ... smoke ... more ....
Did the Bush plan to provide billions for faith based social services ever get off the ground?? I remember a lot of talk about it, but I can not recall whether the plan was ever officially enacted. Or is the Bush administration just now quietly slipping it in thru the back door? http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/30/bush.faith/
WasiGermany Well WasiGermany, if that is your real name, You should know that it is legal in France and Germany for a building proprietor to refuse to lease one of his apartments solely on the basis that the candidate comes from X country or has Y as a religious belief. In Canada, and hope it is likewise in the U.S., a proprietor that discriminates can be sued in a court of law. The penalties are a fine and being forced by the state\province to accept the tenants that have X culture or Y religious faith. --------------------- Posted by goodyfish: "In a separate action, the House is expected today to approve a change allowing private groups that run job training programs to discriminate on the basis of religion when they hire people to run them" --------------------- Same thing. Instead of judging who is the best candidate, theychose the one that ressembles them the most culturaly, religiously and most likely politicaly. -And I never said that the US Gov't was influenced by religion, I only said that if such changes are possible: we need to thank the conservatives for passing this medieval law. Prisme
