I was talking with a Lebanese friend of mine and he said the real reason that the Middle East isn’t united and powerful is because of the West (in particular the USA) and that the common people are now realizing this and via Islam will soon come together (something about coming-into-themselves - - like a religious awaking sort of thing I guess?). And once that has occured the Middle East will be the most powerful “country” the world has ever known. I personally thought he was just emotional because of the Iraq war. Which is fine and understandable. I mentioned to him: What about the 5000 years before the US came to prominence? What about when the Ottoman Empire ruled over everything (outside of Iran) and it was sort of “United”? He didn’t have much to say after that. But it got me thinking. What are your thoughts on a united Middle East? How much do you think the West has played in preventing it from happening? Do you think it will ever happen? Without influence of Western Culture what do you think the Middle East would be like today? ie blue jeans, lights, planes, tooth brush, cars, internet etc...
The influence of religion on the middle east is one of the big things KEEPING them from any sort of peace or order. They would be a lot better off if there was none of this "kill the infidels" stuff against everybody of a different religion or religious denomination. Anyway, without western influence they would probabally be in the same mess. They would be killing and oppressing each other left and right just like always. (though they would have more time to devote to such masochism because Israel would never have been recreated) Needless to say they would still be in the dark ages. I would say without WW1 the ottoman empire would have lasted a while longer but then would have collapsed similar to the way rome did. THen you wouyld have a bunch of chaotic states just like you see today. Just a guess though.
Well yes. Just like Christianity came together. I'm sorry, but the Muslims are bickering among themselves as much as Christians are. It ain't going to happen. Yay, another statement that isn't supported. Not even decent common sense would say that. Have you ever *been* to the Middle East? No respect for human rights, no technological advancement, some of the crappiest economies in the world, no medicare, and no freedom of speech. They are a bunch of insignificant (be honest with yourself, how significant is the opinion of Lebanon?) third-world countries. I have been to the Middle East, and even united I can see no way in hell how the case would be that they would be the "most powerful nation." Don't be stupid. If I recall my history, the Ottoman empire never ruled China, Russia, all of Africa, North and South America. It won't happen, just like a united Africa, united Europe, and a united South America isn't happening in the forseeable future. A pile of shit if they continue being ruled by left-wing religious, fanatical nuts.
We dont MAKE anybody buy our stuff, they choose to. We arent going to go up to anybody and say "buy a toothbrush or we will kill your family" or torture somebody until they use e-bay. People choose and nobody has the right to take that choice away from them.
People in the middle east just love the United States and our products and technology. Anyways, a united Middle East? I just remembered something. Have you ever been to Beirut? Beautiful city. It is ruled by three people. Three people of different religions because there was a war. As a result, the prime minister must be a Muslim and the president must be a Christian (or something like that). United my ass.
I agree that their religion will hinder them more than it will help them. If fundamentalists take control they will be too busy, flogging women for accidentally showing an ankle, to accomplish anything. If they do become a military power they will merely be a giant version of David Koresh and Waco, hmm that seems to be what they are now. Islam itself has retarded their advance into the modern world even more so than Christianity did to Europe and the early Americas, when science was dictated by the Church. We are only now slipping from that binding edict, but some things like stem cell research are still hindered. They do have a great potential. Their ancestors had grasped the concept of algebra while our northern European ancestors were still counting on their fingers.
Some europeans are still counting on their fingers. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! JK
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A united Arabia would be the best thing ever happened to Arabs , but its not happening soon , unfortunatly . Wel its the Brits that have colonized and drawn up all these crazy countries after ww1 (Ottomans defeat) . They promised liberation they gave occupation . As oil became interesting they arranged the countries to be created at their benefit , small oil-nations like Kuweit etc are the result . USA has kept this function and added the semi-socialists as an anti-USSR program in the cold war . Arabs were played out against eachother in the favor of the west , and ofcourse in 48 came Israel . Islam is about the only unification option . I dont think people realize this enough though , as they fight over it all the time . Arabia isnt united one bit , all its shares is anti-amerikanism and anti-zionism , and there it ends . Ofcourse the regimes operate quite differently . The only power can be attained by the oil , and thats gone in a few years . The power is with the oil , if Tawal stops the business with USA tomorrow USA has a serious problem , and it probably invade Saudi for it . If there would be unification , and if this would be in the oil-age , indeed some significant power can be gained , but most powerfull is a bit far-fetched . Alot better (Im not into tv-culture) As long as they fight over it Not because of : "kill the infidels" stuff against everybody of a different religion or religious denomination. That would just be better for the west . If all 300 B yell kill the infidels there's no problem , just for some minorities......but thats not the big problem is it ? This is so racist thinking , the dark-ages is a european thing baby . Christianity was not oppressed by a common enemy (only in the east against the Turks, and I say they were quite united wouldnt you ) Ur compare fails because of who ? If that changes there at least is potential as the cause is removed . Besides , I dont see how human rights stopped Stalin . As if that was what he meant . Rhetorics all the way man and u know it . Euro is working on it , and ofcourse the countries under the West' oppression wont unite.....not such a big surprise . I do consider south-america as a potential , not quite fast , but I do socialism growing , and it made become intersting when reached a certain stage to unite . There hardly are any religious fanatical nuts leading it right now , but i do agree religious is what it will be without the west . He its a pile of shit already .....and guess who caused it ? I dont think y'all hold on to the mid-east because u care somuch for its democratic future . Oh please mister salesman . Have not ANY idea how capitalism works ? People are idiots they aint gonna refuse ....they just go along in the shit you drag them in . Yea u go and feel superior because you're dealing with idiots just like yourself . ur just powerfull idiots and they are weak idiots , thats all what differs . No reasonable person cares for bullshit technology and some trendy jeans . Thats what happens when u create a seperate state (lebanon) in the centre of a religious mix-in . Yet its the only thing that has the potential to unite , but indeed a unification where all that matters is banning music isnt quite benefiscious . Perhaps an Islamic unification first , and then a modern insurrection second . What a bunch of crap , U stay in Jenin for a month and you'll see . Such comparings are ridiciouless . I dont think so , although I agree Islam as the religion has ridiciouless aspects (especially fundamnetalism) . But hey......at least nobody is throwing jews in swimming pools in attempt to baptize them..........Nah......the ridicioulessness of christianity is unparalelled
Re: Re: United Middle East What about when the Ottoman Empire ruled over everything (outside of Iran) and it was sort of “United”? Oh Historical one .. how may I learn from thee ... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Let me clarify "IT" refers to the Middle East not the whole wide wonderful world Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Dark Ages Wow I really didn't mean to write some much on this side point. But Oh well Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Europe (or at least Roma and Greece) were quite learned and the European loss of that knowledge they call the dark ages. It may be a coincidence but the beginning of the dark ages coincides with the spread of Christianity in Europe (at the time a repressive and powerful ideology). Then with the rediscovery of pagan thinking (Aristotle, Democracy, Pythagoras, etc..) begin what the Europeans call that the Renaissance (maybe another coincidence but the Church at this time loses that awesome power and presently is relatively powerless). Afghanistan gave women the right to vote before the USA even dreamed of it. Afghanis were progressive, learned, and cultured. Woman could and did wear fashionable European clothing, danced to the sounds of traditional music and walked in public without fear. Then there is the war with Russia and the simultaneous rise of Fundamental Religion. Now Afghanistan is in a dark age with a culture of fundamental religion (which just happens to be Islam but could easily have been Christianity with parallel results) sort of like Europe. The easiest thing to do is to say it’s the fault of The War. I agree the war with Russia did precipitate the current situation. It is the rise of Fundamental Religion which has maintained it. Well there’s also the no-help-from-America after the war explanation, which sucked and I agree it didn’t help things there either. But it’s still the Religion that maintains it. With no help from the USA, Russia (after winning the second WW) was completely crushed yet they pulled through and sent a man into space not long afte – it is possible to pullout without outside help. Anyway, I think when Religion invades all thought and total trust is placed in it, society slips into a dark age. So maybe it’s not just a European thing but more likely has probably happened throughout time - irrespective of culture or place.
The greeks were very learned , you should not confuse both peoples , even though they have ruled together in the Hellenistic period . The Greeks have learned about everything they knew from Kemet (ancient Egypt) and Babylon (ancient Arabia) , the Romans did not have such friendly relationships with their superiors in philosophy and science . They invaded Kemet through the son of Cleopatra and when they united with Hellas they brought forth Christianity...and we all know what happened after that . There is serious decline in intelligence after ancient greece and it reached its highest (lowest) point when the barbaric tribes of europe (everything that wasnt roman , lol) started to gain authority along with christianity . Everything the western civilization today knows of ancient greece they have learned through the Arabs , as they saved the scriptures/texts when Christianity held pagan book-burn rallies . Indeed , if we keep it to Afhanistan that is correct . Sure , but I consider the dark ages something totalitarian , and this I think should include a mass and some tribes here and there . If you speak about Islamic dark ages , and compare it to Christianity , Islams has nevber had this except for some exceptions like indeed the Taliban , in Pakistan and in Iran , but as you see all 3 dive into fundamentalism after ethnical wars against a super-power . All these nations were under heavy western influence in some way or the other , for instant Iran was the Shah who was pro USA hated , and brought down by revolution . As reaction always is extreme when such extreme situations arise , there was fundamentalism . Same is now happening in Iraq , same is happening in Palestine for years (I dont think hamas would be to big if not for the oppression) . So in the first place its not massal over Islam , most muslims even back in Arabia are very secular , but its growing , but it hasnt taken over Islam as it did Christianity . And secondly its not a philosophical change but a direct reaction to opression . So thats 2 reasons why u shouldnt say its the dark ages .
There was some uniting in the Middle East, in Basra today, An Iraqi forced to flee the saddam regime 25 years ago has returned 'home' from the UK. Sadly his mother died 7 years ago, his brother was killed in the war with Iran but his father is still alive. Today his family reunion was filmed by the BBC. Through the moisture (obviously had something in my eye) I saw an old man and his son reunited after a quarter of a century apart. I saw this old man and his son on the floor sobbing their hearts out and holding on to each other as if there was no tomorrow. The Tyrant has gone, the nightmare is over, and the sun is shining. Somehow I doubt if this BBC film was shown on Al Jezeera.
Funny you should mention films aghart, I've seen rather a lot of them recently. Mostly Iraqi families mourning innocent civilians killed by trigger-happy poorl-trained american soldiers or american munitions, 'tis true, but still...
Fair enough, Romans and Greeks were definitely different people culturally. Yet I wouldn’t discount Romans on the learning curve – they were great engineers. even though they have ruled together in the Hellenistic period. [/QUOTE] although towards the later half anything the Greeks “ruled” would be at the pleasure of Rome. Lots of banks/temples for sure! The Greeks have learned about everything they knew from Kemet (ancient Egypt) and Babylon (ancient Arabia) [/QUOTE] That is as true today of anything American as it was then with Greeks … all of us are standing on the backs or giants. That said, credit where credit is due: certainly Pythagoras learned math from the Egyptians yet he was the first person to do a formal mathematical proof. The Archimedean Screw is obviously Babylonian yet to discount Academies – Pfff…. Etc… Its funny, I once told my Chinese friend that I can clam as much credit as he for Sun Tzu’s Book “Art of War”. He made a funny face :bugeye: I had to laugh! What I mean of course is it’s what we ourselves do that maters. I don’t think Fei Chen nor I can claim much credit for Sun Tzu’s writings in the 1500s. Of course nothing occurs in a vacuum and you are right to say many people have learned a hell of a lot from the Egyptian and Mesopotamian peoples. We can still learn a hell of a lot from modern day Egypt and Iraq. The avg Amercian is to dim to understand that (I should know I'm an Amercian) I wondered would you say the Arabic today are descendant of the Sumerians? Or its all a hodgepodge really? I need to study that time again.
Michael One thing I have never figured out about the Romans is, how did they build all of those structures using only Roman numerals?? They didn't even have a zero.
Re: Michael justiceusa Yeah interesting huh? I'm not sure I once read part of a book waiting in Boarders about zero. I think the Greeks were quite skeptical about the whole notion of zero. Obviously Zeno's paradox invovles the concept of zero and infinity. I remember reading that Greek astronomers actually used the "O" symbol but that basically Greek mathematical achievements were based on geometry. Maybe the Romans used the same geometric system?
