Why Athiesim is a self defeating belief

[answers]

Athiest means "no" "God". When a person says that they are an athiest, they are saying, I know that there is no God, therefore I believe one doesn't exist. BUT to have knowledge that there is no God, you would need to be all knowing. You would need to know every square inch of the universe, you would need to be able to see within people, through mountains, you would need to be all knowing and all seeing because how else would you know that God isn't hiding away somewhere off in another part of the universe, or within a person, or mountain? So in saying, I'm an Athiest, people are saying, I'm all knowing, and that means that they're God. So when someone say I'm an Atheist, they are actually saying, there is no God, I am God, both at the same time. WHAT A CONTRADICTION. No wonder most people don't have any guts and they settle for calling themselves Agnostics.

CyA

From Tim

[Thor]

But don't you have to be all knowing to say that there IS a god for certain??

It's all down to personal belief. Let sleeping cables lie...or something

[river-wind]

an interesting proof, I have to say.

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by answers
Athiest means "no" "God". When a person says that they are an athiest, they are saying, I know that there is no God, therefore I believe one doesn't exist. BUT to have knowledge that there is no God, you would need to be all knowing. You would need to know every square inch of the universe, you would need to be able to see within people, through mountains, you would need to be all knowing and all seeing because how else would you know that God isn't hiding away somewhere off in another part of the universe, or within a person, or mountain? So in saying, I'm an Athiest, people are saying, I'm all knowing, and that means that they're God. So when someone say I'm an Atheist, they are actually saying, there is no God, I am God, both at the same time. WHAT A CONTRADICTION. No wonder most people don't have any guts and they settle for calling themselves Agnostics.

CyA

From Tim

We've been through this one. Agnosticism is not a stance regarding religion. You've got it wrong as I did when I came here. Look up the word "epistemology". Agnosticism is a stance regarding epistemology, NOT religion. Aitheism doesn't mean you "know" there is no god, it merely means you find no evidence supporting that there is.

Oh, and it's silly to say that you'd have to be "all knowing" to KNOW there isn't a god. You'd just have to know there isn't a god. Maybe there is a trick to knowing that which you're not aware of eh?

If you are really interested in the topic, look up a thread by ConsequentAithiest called "consistent or delimited agnosticism". It should shed some light on the scenario for you. ;)

[spacemanspiff]

"No wonder most people don't have any guts and they settle for calling themselves Agnostics."

hey no need to insult agnostics, or weak-atheist or whatever you want to call us. asides i don't see the point of your post. sure no one knows everything for sure. if anything that shows that no one of any sort of religious opinion knows for certain that they are right. that knocks christianity just as much as it knocks atheism. besides most people, as was said before, will say that in their eyes the evidence points one way or the other. not that they have absolute all knowing proof. well, some christians might.;)

[Zero Mass]

Originally posted by answers
Athiest means "no" "God". When a person says that they are an athiest, they are saying, I know that there is no God, therefore I believe one doesn't exist.

First off crapface, the prefix "a-" means without, not, or opposed to. Theism is the belief in the existence of god or gods. The label atheist does not say that one knows that there is no god, but an atheist rather rejects the idea of a god? This is basic stuff for this forum, which you should know. Must I also go get the dictionary for agnostic also?

I do not say that I know that there is no god for certain, but I have never found one single picogram of evidence for the existence of a supernatural force in our world. If there is no signs, evidence, or proof for a thing in the natural world in which we live, then there is no way I could believe in something with no backing. Just believing in a supernatural force because you have no other explanation for natural occurrences is not a reason to believe.

Originally posted by answers
BUT to have knowledge that there is no God, you would need to be all knowing. You would need to know every square inch of the universe, you would need to be able to see within people, through mountains, you would need to be all knowing and all seeing because how else would you know that God isn't hiding away somewhere off in another part of the universe, or within a person, or mountain?

Yes, it is absolutely true that you yourself would have to be supernatural in order to understand that there is no such thing as supernatural forces, but that can never happen because there is no such power in the universe.

You might put up the argument that just because we cannot perceive god doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, but that is a really weak argument. I could say that a monster lives in my closet because I believe one to be in there, eating my underwear, but that doesn't make it true. God is only an idea in the mind of humans, that is the only way that god exists, as an entity in your head.

Originally posted by answers
So in saying, I'm an Athiest, people are saying, I'm all knowing, and that means that they're God. So when someone say I'm an Atheist, they are actually saying, there is no God, I am God, both at the same time. WHAT A CONTRADICTION. No wonder most people don't have any guts and they settle for calling themselves Agnostics.


You are just wrong here. First off, read the dictionary, second, read my entire reply, I think that I make some good points about basis for disbelief.

Please attempt to show me evidence for the existence of god, because that is the only thing that I want to hear from you in response to this. Your original topic is ignorant and instead of tearing down atheists, I wish that you would please try to build up theism.

ZERO MASS

[Cris]

Answers,

Does this mean you also hold the position that Santa Claus might exist then since I suspect you haven’t checked every corner of the universe to verify he doesn’t exist.

The issue with believing the Christian god does not exist is a matter of credibility and the recognition of a fantasy just the same as Santa Claus and fairies.

It is often stated that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and while this is technically true there is a point where one can see that a complete absence of evidence coupled with claims born from imaginative fantasy that have zero precedent in reality, no factual basis, no observation, and no detection, leave the intelligent person with little doubt that such foolish ideas can have no bearing on reality. In this case the absence of evidence for such fantasies is very strong evidence for their non existence.

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by Zero Mass
I have never found one single picogram of evidence for the existence of a supernatural force in our world.
Come to think of it, even if you did find such evidence, it wouldn't be supernatural because it would be occurring in nature.

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
Come to think of it, even if you did find such evidence, it wouldn't be supernatural because it would be occurring in nature.

You are wise grasshopper. I've ranted about this before.

[Zero Mass]

i was thinking about something supernatural that can be examined...like a bag of magic. Why can't god give me some bag of magic or something, that would help prove his existance.

My idea of a bag of magic would be like, if you put the stuff in the bag on a dog, it would magically turn into a asparagus or something, that would be magical.

But no, god isn't that cool or wise. In fact, god just isn't real.

ZERO MASS

[answers]

You want your evidence, you won't get it. No matter what you do, it is impossible for you to become a Christian. There is absolutely no chance of it. Because God rejects the proud. He will never regenerate your desires. If you stay like you are then your going to Hell. Simple isn't it, yet you will never understand.

[Zero Mass]

Originally posted by answers
You want your evidence, you won't get it. No matter what you do, it is impossible for you to become a Christian. There is absolutely no chance of it. Because God rejects the proud. He will never regenerate your desires. If you stay like you are then your going to Hell. Simple isn't it, yet you will never understand.

You are ****. That is the kind of stuff that makes Christians the worst people on Earth.
It's ok to admit that you know nothing about the universe, the origen of species, moral and social questions, and the meaning of life, but when you claim to know better than anybody else you are being more than ignorant, you are being a supremacist ****.

Leave your judging behavior at the door, I want nothing to do with your religion you ****.

ZERO MASS

Moderator edit: Personal insults add nothing useful to the discussion.

[venomx]

Originally posted by river-wind
an interesting proof, I have to say.

It's not really a proof though is it? Its a word game... one that initially makes an assumption about what an atheist is, being wrong, makes the rest of the argument a bit off.

1. When a person says they are atheist they are saying they reject religion / do not share the religious beliefs of the person the statement was directed at.

This is an example of a twisting of words.. infact a statement that is completely irrelevant...
"To have knowledge there is no god, you would have to be all knowing"
Indeed yes. But Atheism is about religion being WRONG about god, rather than "there is no god". But that has no relevance to the Atheism question, is the christian god, as laid out in the bible, real or not? Well reality seems to suggest the bible is wrong.
That does NOT rule out the possiblity of their being a god, its just ONE of a infinite number of possible explainations has been writen off.
I am saying the bible is either wrong or not, rather than partly correct, as the bible and its bashers insists it is correct to the last letter.

If believing the christian version of god is not true makes me an antheist then i've got the guts to accept that label.

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by venomx
When a person says they are atheist they are saying they reject religion / do not share the religious beliefs of the person the statement was directed at.
Atheism isn't synonymous with non-religious. Many Buddhists and Taoists are technically atheists because their religion is not focused on a deity.

[Crunchy Cat]

Your 'argument' falls apart at this statement:

...they are saying, I know that there is no God, therefore I believe one doesn't exist...

That's pretty much saying:

'I KNOW concept X is TRUE therefore I accept without proof that
concept X is TRUE'

It just doesn't make any sense man!

Anyhow, logic flaw aside...consider this. I don't 'believe'... I just
remove the concept from my life (a nice little strategy to promote
actual thinking). 'God' is (for most) a 'belief' and is by default a
subset of the concept removed from my life. That subset has
been labeled 'Atheism' by the majority... the majority
who 'believes' (ie. accepts whatever without proof).

[Mystech]

Originally posted by answers
You want your evidence, you won't get it. No matter what you do, it is impossible for you to become a Christian. There is absolutely no chance of it. Because God rejects the proud. He will never regenerate your desires. If you stay like you are then your going to Hell. Simple isn't it, yet you will never understand.

Ahh, so God hates all of those who are critical thinkers, and possess the faculties to understand logic? Well, I find that to be very convenient, though I must admit that it answers a great deal about those who chose to follow him. Hope you enjoy life as a sheep.

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by Mystech
Ahh, so God hates all of those who are critical thinkers, and possess the faculties to understand logic? Well, I find that to be very convenient, though I must admit that it answers a great deal about those who chose to follow him. Hope you enjoy life as a sheep.
I'm sure he will. Jesus actually told everyone that they are sheep (and he is the shepherd). Thus the sheep mentality of Xianity (Bible the word of God and all that other bullshit).

[mountainhare]

You want your evidence, you won't get it. No matter what you do, it is impossible for you to become a Christian. There is absolutely no chance of it. Because God rejects the proud. He will never regenerate your desires. If you stay like you are then your going to Hell. Simple isn't it, yet you will never understand.

ZeroMass basically took the words out of my mouth when he replied to this retarded quote, but I want to say something too...
"KISS MY ASS!" This insult is also directed at your 'all-loving' god.

And yes, my insult was warranted, because you and your God just threatened me. And you didn't just threaten my body, you threatened my 'soul', the thing that makes me what I am. You and your God must both be really retarded, insane, physcotic, mentally disabled, hypocritical, and nutcases. Please refrain from threatening me with your God, as making threats is a criminal offense.

[answers]

Mountain, ever heard of defamation? Well, if you wan't to go on about legalities, then why don't you stop being hypocritical yourself, and look at the whole law. In fact look at God's law while your at it. That's what your going to be judged by.

Moses, who muslims respect as a prophet, had two tablets with God's law written on them. These tablets said 10 things concerning what not to do. Let's look at three of them. Do not lie. Have you ever lied? Of course you have. Do not steal. Have you ever stollen anything? Of course you have, even if it is witholding 5 cents from someone. Have you ever commited adultery. Jesus said,whoever looks at a women with lust, has committed adultery with her in his heart. So God judges you by this law, and the Judgement will be: you are a lying, theiving, adulterer, who is sentenced to an eternity in Hell. And we have only touched on 3 of 10 of the commandments. You are guilty before the Lord. Your conscience tells you that. You have knowledge of your wrong doings. And a just and fair Judge finds those who are guilty, guilty! You are guilty. Mahumad can't save you. Darwin can't save you. Your reasoning can't save you. Your petty excuses can't save you. Nothing can save you from the lake of fire, except Jesus. Jesus who resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Jesus who says, if you don't come to Me now, then I'll spit you out. And guess where you'll land?... Do you like fire? It would be a good thing if you didn't mind it, for your sake.

You say that you feel threatened by this...you should be shaking every moment of the day.

Don't listen to those who go around the streets saying that "Jesus loves you". The apostles never said it. They said "Repent or you will perish". Repent, say sorry, or you'll find a place in Hell. You will burn for all eternity. God will turn His back on you. Everything that is good in the world, will be replaced by unimaginable evil. You will be flooded with darkness until you cannot take it anymore, but you will take it, and take it....forever and ever. Because you won't say and believe the following words. "Lord I'm a sinner, Jesus the son of God, I need your forgivness." You reject those words. Thus God will reject YOU!

[Horseman42]

answers,

Mountain, ever heard of defamation? Well, if you wan't to go on about legalities, then why don't you stop being hypocritical yourself, and look at the whole law. In fact look at God's law while your at it. That's what your going to be judged by.

It's crap like your post that proves just how terrible and misguided Christians are.

First of all you say that we are all essentially bad and evil, and there's nothing we can do about it. Guilty of sin since the day we were born. Sorry I like to think about myself in a positive way not a negative way thanks.

Jesus who resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Jesus who says, if you don't come to Me now, then I'll spit you out. And guess where you'll land?

Right so all those who do not accepted that Jesus had died for their sins go to hell? What about babies or mental patients? I know many mental patients who do not have the capacity to understand Jesus and who have commited serious criminal acts (like murder, arson ect...). Guess they all go to hell too then.

They said "Repent or you will perish". Repent, say sorry, or you'll find a place in Hell. You will burn for all eternity.

Again as I pointed out before on an earlier post the whole concept is like a madman pointing a gun at our heads. If God gave us free will then we should be able to decide ourselves what laws to live by. However along came Moses and his 10 commandments, now if we don't obey and do as God asks we suffer an eternity of Hell. How is that free will?

The whole story of Hell is silly if you really start thinking about it.

[TheVisitor]

Answers...................very well said. Especially this...........

"Don't listen to those who go around the streets saying that "Jesus loves you". The apostles never said it. They said "Repent or you will perish"

Most peolpe don't realize this is the truth......the idea that "Jesus loves everyone" is designed to cause them who believe such, to miss seeking God with the desperation it will take to overcome and stand in this evil day.
Jesus hates sin.
His Word calls for a total seperation from unbelief.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

[answers]

In reply to the person who said children and insane people go to hell, and how that's bad or whatever....

Anyway, Jesus said, unless you are like these little children then you will not go to heaven. So if children are like children I don't see the problem here. But of course I'm not God, and I'm not the perfect Judge, so I might be wrong, that's why I'm glad that task isn't up to me.

Now for insane people. Everyone has a conscience. That means With Knowledge. And everyone is with the knowledge of good and evil. (I have had athiests even admit that to me, so get over it) Thats why God says no one is with excuse for what they have done wrong. Now the conscience applies guilt, and gives joy....Now lets apply this to a mentally ill person. If that mentally ill person has the desire to do good (because the conscience still gives them that knowledge), in the depths of his mind, then that person desires God. Because Jesus said God is good. As in God is every good thing. So if a person desires a good thing, then that person desires God and God won't reject them. However if that person, in their basic thoughts desires evil. Then God will reject them. Because that person rejected God. BUT then again, this is only my thougths on the issue, there are many others. Perhaps God meets with the person and tests them when they are sane. Perhaps...perhaps, but who really cares. Because your not insane. Your not a child. So why are you basing your decision for salvation on other peoples circumstances that influence their salvation. Let God worry about it, and if you do you truely are intelligent, becuase there is no one better then an all knowing God to make judgements. Worry about your own problems, before you try to understand and fix others.

Now this is just plain logic. If an insane murderer doesn't go to hell. Then he doesn't go to heaven either, even if we think he does. Because for an insane murderer to go to heaven, he would no longer be an insane murderer, he would be someone different. Therefore he wouldn't be himself, so he would not go to heaven no matter what. It's impossible for a person who is evil to go to heaven, therefore any evil person would have to not be themselves to go to heaven. Logical! That is why Jesus takes our place. He is not us. He is pure good. And He cleans us, and makes us pure as well. What I am today, I will not be when I am saved. (THANK GOD) And what you are won't be what you will be when you are condemned. Because all of God's goodness, for God is good, will be drained out of you, and replaced by evil. You will not be what you are today, you will be unimaginably worse. Just like I will be unimaginably better. I will have the bad taken out, and replaced by God's goodness.

Then again you probably don't know what I am talking about. Because you are the opposite to what I am. How can darkness comprehend the things that are in the light?

[atheroy]

hey answers? your views are very negative, very ignorant, VERY proud, and basically stupid. how can an all powerful god give a **** if i happen to keep 5 cents from someone- not that i generally do cause who the hell would bother with stealing 5 cent coins. why would an all powerful being have such narrow views as yours? do you take the bible literally? because if you do you are crazy, it is the most flawed piece of writing in the whole world, and if you don't, then i guess you are sinning against "god" because who are you to question your "gods" word? you are a hateful person, the type that cause wars, the type that prosecute people because of no good reason except for your own predjudices. i, as an atheist, take my main reason for not believing in god because of people like you. why on earth would anyone want to be like you? living your life in fear of hell- no thanks. want to live forever? nup. your "god" and his ideas have no relevance to me if they make people think like you.

[Horseman42]

answers,

Thank you for responding to my post.

Anyway, Jesus said, unless you are like these little children then you will not go to heaven. So if children are like children I don't see the problem here. But of course I'm not God, and I'm not the perfect Judge, so I might be wrong, that's why I'm glad that task isn't up to me.

So what you're saying it totaly depends on the person's situation weather or not they get in to heaven, and therefore some people (ie. very young children) don't need to believe in all that stuff about Jesus dying for their sins and stuff. Either that or you really don't know exactly who will go to heaven who won't.

So why are you basing your decision for salvation on other peoples circumstances that influence their salvation.

Because what I'm getting at is why is it fair if someone has a mental problem because of no fault of their own, and then therefore cannot get in to heaven because of it. If I were a Christian I would be very upset of the amount of people who go to hell based on no decision of their own.

If an insane murderer doesn't go to hell. Then he doesn't go to heaven either, even if we think he does.

Then where do the criminally insane go when they die? Unless you believe in something like purgatory you really only have two choices being a Christian.

You will not be what you are today, you will be unimaginably worse. Just like I will be unimaginably better. I will have the bad taken out, and replaced by God's goodness.

Right so you're good and I'm evil? Why do you assume this? It's this type of atitude among Christians that I have a problem with.

Then again you probably don't know what I am talking about. Because you are the opposite to what I am. How can darkness comprehend the things that are in the light?

Making assumptions again. Is it so hard for you to believe I may be on your side and only looking for the truth as well?

[MooseKnuckle]

Atheroy-

how can an all powerful god give a **** if i happen to keep 5 cents from someone

It wouldnt. Humans are social creatures. The belief of a supernatural agent with access to strategic information helps to maintain cooperation. It is a great mode of cheater- detection, it is a great way to make people abstain from commiting acts that would not be seen by fellow members of the community.

......."A large prescence in the sky will always be watching you, therefore you need to act in socially appropriate ways or else hell awaits you!!!" :eek:

See how a belief like this can be extremely beneficial to the workings of society and interactions between individuals.

[answers]

I have to say sorry, my last post to you was posted at 12pm, and I thought you were the one that has sworn at me about 7 times so far (funnily enough about being too mean or something lol), but it was someone else. Anyway that's why my post to you wasn't as positive as I would have made it (as you can relate to, if someone swears at you, you react differently to if somone asks you a proper question). But anyway I'm sorry, hope theres no hard feelings.

BUT to the atheist that said I'm stupid or whatever: you said my life must suck because I'm living in constant fear of hell. This statement is so unbelievably stupid that I just couldn't hold back my laughter. You atheists seriously crack me up. After talking about me being so mean and hatefilled, you swear at me like 7 times. And after me telling you that you should be afraid of hell, and that if you no longer want to be afraid of hell, then you should do what I did and give yourself to Jesus. You say to me, you must have a bad life becuase you live in fear of hell. Lol, I just said that I don't live in fear of hell becuase I'm saved.

Come on, can't you see the humour. :D

[answers]

This statement that christians are good and unbelievers are evil, I have to admit does give the wrong impression. God says whoever is not for me, is against me. But that doesn't mean that unbelievers are evil, it does however mean they are against God. This is because some unbelievers can be the nicest people in the world, but still be subject to satans will, and so obviously they are against God. Every unsaved person follows satans desires. You may say: "I've seen plenty of nice and good unsaved people, how could they possibly be following Satans will?" Well you see, satans will is to take away God's glory. And saved people are God's glory. It doesn't matter to satan if he allows people to be nice followers of his will, just as long as they follow it. You see it actually helps satans will, if you are a good unsaved person. Becuase if everyone who wasn't saved, was so blatantly evil, then people would quickly be converted. So satan allows unsaved people to be good, to put off others from believing in God.

Now to say Christians are good isn't too clear either. Because the only thing that makes christians good is Christ in them. I'm actually a very sinful person, but with Christ in me, I am good, because Christ washes away my sin. I'm not proud in myself, I'm just boasting about my saviour. Because his such a cool guy for saving me.

Anyway, gotta make a new thread, CyA

From Tim

[Persol]

Originally posted by answers
Every unsaved person follows satans desires. You may say: "I've seen plenty of nice and good unsaved people, how could they possibly be following Satans will?" Well you see, satans will is to take away God's glory.
If taking away God's glory is the downside to Satan, then he doesn't seem such a bad imaginary friend. Making sure that God gets credit is not at the top of my list of concerns... for that matter making sure anybody gets credit (including me) is not at the top of my list. This God you are describing sounds more and more selfish the more you try.

Now to say Christians are good isn't too clear either. Because the only thing that makes christians good is Christ in them. I'm actually a very sinful person, but with Christ in me, I am good, because Christ washes away my sin.
This is a nice catch-22. If you are good it is because christ was in you. If not the devil must have been in you. I could just as easily say that when I'm happy the spirit of a midget must have been in me... but it means nothing.

I'm not proud in myself, I'm just boasting about my saviour. Because his such a cool guy for saving me.
Saving you from what exactly? Oh, that's right.... the situation he set up. If I shoot you in the foot, and later operate on it and make it good as new (assuming I'm a doctor), I am not a cool guy. I'm fixing what I originally did.

[Horseman42]

answers,

I have to say sorry, my last post to you was posted at 12pm, and I thought you were the one that has sworn at me about 7 times so far (funnily enough about being too mean or something lol), but it was someone else.

That's ok. I try no to swear too much because I feel it only enrages people and confuses the issues at hand.

God says whoever is not for me, is against me. But that doesn't mean that unbelievers are evil, it does however mean they are against God.

Many religions say this. Why should I follow Christianity rather than some other religion? Which religion is the right one in the eyes of God.

Every unsaved person follows satans desires. You may say: "I've seen plenty of nice and good unsaved people, how could they possibly be following Satans will?" Well you see, satans will is to take away God's glory. And saved people are God's glory.

Sorry I find the whole thing about Satan nothing more than a farrie tale. Why would an all powerful God design a system this way? According to your logic no one can get into heaven unless they believe in Jesus Christ.

Again you have not answered my entire post last time. Where do the mentally ill go, or children who cannot understand Jesus? Or for that matter the people in the old testiment before Christ's time? If God makes some exceptions to the rule for these people than logically why can't he make exceptions for the athiests?

[MooseKnuckle]

answers-

I'm actually a very sinful person, but with Christ in me, I am good, because Christ washes away my sin. I'm not proud in myself, I'm just boasting about my saviour. Because his such a cool guy for saving me.

Think about this concept of saving you.....he saves you because you worship him, he declines his love from you if you dont. This is also outside the realm of action. Sining or the lack of sin is not the determining factor in his love, it is his need for worship that determines how he treats people.

This sounds like a way for weak people to eliminate guilt from their actions. They say that Jesus will wash away their sins, but if you dont repent your sins will not be forgivin. Why is this so? Why does it matter who you worship, shouldnt one's actions be the dictator of Jesus's love?

You are responsible for your actions, the results will never dissapear because you repented, the action was made and there is nothing you can do to eliminate that.

People need to grow up and take responsiblity for their actions and not think there is such an easy fix.

[atheroy]

answers

And saved people are God's glory

i think the universe is a much bigger achievement, rather than a group of people on a miniscule dirt ball planet.

sorry if you felt i swore at you before but actually i was quite peeved at something you wrote earlier and felt i had to type four stars as an empahsis to my point :)

[Xev]

Jesus hates sin.

Jesus hates everyone. Jesus hates you because you will never be as good and perfect as Him, instead you'll always be a miserable, filthy little sinner who doesn't even deserve to lick the dirt off of Jesus' sandals.

His Word calls for a total seperation from unbelief.

Well, a complete seperation from logic and rationality.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Finally we agree. Jesus was and remains dead.

[answers]

Sorry I find the whole thing about Satan nothing more than a farrie tale. Why would an all powerful God design a system this way? According to your logic no one can get into heaven unless they believe in Jesus Christ.
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You see God didn't design this system. God designed heaven on earth in the garden of eden. Adam and Eve were the ones who screwed up the design. God's design was to have fellowship with us in paradise. However now that sin has come into the equation, God cannot have fellowship with us anymore, because sin is so unbelievably disgusting to him. Being around sin to God, is billions times worse then us swimming in a pool of vomit, it's the most disgusting thing possible to God, and He avoids it at all costs, even if it means letting satan take away the vomit into Hell.

God is not evil in doing this. In fact right after Adam and Eve sinned against God, God was already planning to send His only son to die on the cross for these sinning humans. Instead of judgement, and punishment, God gives us mercy. However if we reject Jesus, it is like rejecting the ticket into Heaven, and if you don't have a ticket then how are you supposed to enter. Jesus said that I am the only ticket God will accept. And God demands payment for what you have done. AGAIN God is like a judge in a court, and if you have chosen Jesus to represent you, then no matter what the prosecutor (satan) throws at the judge, Jesus will simply say, although he has done these things, I have already paid his punishment. Then God will say, "case dissmissed". But if you chose someone other then Jesus to represent you, then there is no way that you can find justification for you entering heaven.
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Again you have not answered my entire post last time. Where do the mentally ill go, or children who cannot understand Jesus? Or for that matter the people in the old testiment before Christ's time? If God makes some exceptions to the rule for these people than logically why can't he make exceptions for the athiests?
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God doesn't make exceptions to the rule. Jesus said I'm the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me. And Jesus is so merciful, that He may chose to go out of his way to cleans someone who doesn't understand sin, however these types of people are very few. And I don't personally believe that anyone doesn't know that if they rape and murder someone, that that is evil. If a child is pure then Jesus wouldn't even notice the difference between the child and himself, as in purity. HOWEVER, it is up to God to decide these things. I think your asking a bit too much of me, when you start asking me about How God will judge people. Come on, I'm not all knowing, all powerful, or everywhere, so how do you expect me to even partially express what God's judgements are going to be. Every time you get closer to being like God, you realise just how far you are away from being like him. (I'm not even out of high school yet, so I don't know how you expect me to answer questions that only God can answer).

Now atheists, reject Jesus, and God will return the favor and reject you. He only gives you what you want. You have no excuse.

Hope this has been informative.

CyA

[Xev]

Now atheists, reject Jesus, and God will return the favor and reject you. He only gives you what you want. You have no excuse.

I find the idea that I might be rejected by a petty tyrannical fool to be intolerable. I'm sorry God!

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by answers
This statement that christians are good and unbelievers are evil, I have to admit does give the wrong impression. God says whoever is not for me, is against me.

You are simply claiming divine knowledge while showing no justification that you have any actual knowledge to begin with.
Originally posted by answers

But that doesn't mean that unbelievers are evil, it does however mean they are against God.

No, it doesn't. You have given no chain of logic reaching this conclusion. You're simply talking shit. Logically speaking I believe that being without god does not align one against "him".
Originally posted by answers

This is because some unbelievers can be the nicest people in the world, but still be subject to satans will, and so obviously they are against God. Every unsaved person follows satans desires. You may say: "I've seen plenty of nice and good unsaved people, how could they possibly be following Satans will?" Well you see, satans will is to take away God's glory. And saved people are God's glory. It doesn't matter to satan if he allows people to be nice followers of his will, just as long as they follow it. You see it actually helps satans will, if you are a good unsaved person. Becuase if everyone who wasn't saved, was so blatantly evil, then people would quickly be converted. So satan allows unsaved people to be good, to put off others from believing in God.

Now to say Christians are good isn't too clear either. Because the only thing that makes christians good is Christ in them. I'm actually a very sinful person, but with Christ in me, I am good, because Christ washes away my sin. I'm not proud in myself, I'm just boasting about my saviour. Because his such a cool guy for saving me.

Anyway, gotta make a new thread, CyA

From Tim

I would have adressed the rest if it weren't all pretty much the same retarded drivel that the typical moronic theist spouts. Why should anyone give your message any type of merit whatsoever?

You call yourself "answers". May I ask what measures you've taken to ensure your "answers" aren't lies? Why do you consider yourself so much more qualified to discern between fact and fiction? From what you've displayed here, I'd say you'd fail the simplest of quizzes regarding the topic.

[Horseman42]

answers,

You see God didn't design this system. God designed heaven on earth in the garden of eden. Adam and Eve were the ones who screwed up the design.

If god is all knowing and all powerful he would have known Adam and Eve would have taken from the fruit in the beginning. The only reasonable explaination is that god wanted it this way to begin with.

God is not evil in doing this. In fact right after Adam and Eve sinned against God, God was already planning to send His only son to die on the cross for these sinning humans.

Does it make sense for God to send his own children to hell based on some simple fact that we don't believe in his existance or don't accept Jesus as our personal saviour? It may not seam evil to you but it does to me.

But if you chose someone other then Jesus to represent you, then there is no way that you can find justification for you entering heaven.

Could you please prove the above statement. It sounds like your saying everyone else is wrong and you're right based on no evidence at all.

God doesn't make exceptions to the rule. Jesus said I'm the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me. And Jesus is so merciful, that He may chose to go out of his way to cleans someone who doesn't understand sin, however these types of people are very few.

Acctually it's more common then you think. I work at a mental institution where none of our patients could possibly understand the sacrifice Jesus made. Statistically speaking 1% of the population suffers from schizophrenia. That 1% equates to aproximately 25000, in my country (Canada). Keep in mind that's only one mental disease there are many others in our society.

I'm not saying it's impossible for someone with a mental disease to comprehend God only it could make things difficult, or in some cases impossible.

Again if I were a Christian I would have a problem with even one person ending up in hell through no fault of their own.

when you start asking me about How God will judge people. Come on, I'm not all knowing, all powerful, or everywhere, so how do you expect me to even partially express what God's judgements are going to be.

Ok then it's possible for an athiest person to go to heaven then right since you don't know.

(I'm not even out of high school yet, so I don't know how you expect me to answer questions that only God can answer).

Well keep search for answers. Your doing pretty good if your only in high school. My only advice to you is to try and keep an open mind on things.

[MooseKnuckle]

answers-

Now atheists, reject Jesus, and God will return the favor and reject you. He only gives you what you want. You have no excuse.

I would have to disagree with this. He does not supply the evidence needed for many to make an educated decision FOR his existance.

Its not an issue of rejecting jesus, if he presented himself im sure not many people in the world would resist him( well maybe some, due to his past track record). In order to be rejected he would have to present himself, but since he has not we cant reject him, we can only reject the idea of the son of God.

[JoojooSpaceape]

Originally posted by answers
Athiest means "no" "God". When a person says that they are an athiest, they are saying, I know that there is no God, therefore I believe one doesn't exist. BUT to have knowledge that there is no God, you would need to be all knowing.
CyA

From Tim


No human is all knowing, This is no proof that god exists, or that he doesnt, that is why we are a very self conflicting race, because we are not sure what tuo believe, now lets say god did show up, performed miracles, and healed people, and the like, then im sure more people would believe

[answers]

If god is all knowing and all powerful he would have known Adam and Eve would have taken from the fruit in the beginning. The only reasonable explaination is that god wanted it this way to begin with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

No actually God didn't wan't Adam to take the fruit, He actually said, "Adam don't take the fruit". He did forsee that Adam would take the fruit, and he also forsaw that He would have to give His only son to pay for Adams sin. He also forsaw that He would at times regret making humans. BUT HE THOUGHT THAT IT WAS WORTH IT, BECAUSE HE IS LIKE US, HE WANT'S OTHERS TO HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM, AND GIVE HIM GLORY BY REFLECTING HIS OWN GOODNESS.

Kool isn't He :D

[answers]

Does it make sense for God to send his own children to hell based on some simple fact that we don't believe in his existance or don't accept Jesus as our personal saviour? It may not seam evil to you but it does to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
God saves people from Hell, people send people to Hell. We are lucky anybody is going to Heaven as it is, it is only because of God's mercy that some are going to Heaven (we all deserve Hell, even if you people don't think you do, it doesn't really matter, because God thinks you do)

Simple as that

P.S the reason why i'm not replying to the other guys questions is becuase he swore at me, don't spit in my face and expect me to give you a gift.

[answers]

Could you please prove the above statement. It sounds like your saying everyone else is wrong and you're right based on no evidence at all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Think of the ticket to Heaven costing more money then you could ever pay, or anyone could ever pay. It is impossible to get into Heaven besides through Jesus, because He is the only payment worth enough to buy the ticket. Jesus said: "I'am the way the truth and the life, no one gets to the father except through me"

This is from the Bible, which there is a heap of evidence to support. About 30 - 50 pages of evidence in "Evidence that demands a verdict - By Josh Mcdowell". It's a very good book, I highly recomend it.

[answers]

Acctually it's more common then you think. I work at a mental institution where none of our patients could possibly understand the sacrifice Jesus made. Statistically speaking 1% of the population suffers from schizophrenia. That 1% equates to aproximately 25000, in my country (Canada). Keep in mind that's only one mental disease there are many others in our society.

I'm not saying it's impossible for someone with a mental disease to comprehend God only it could make things difficult, or in some cases impossible.

Again if I were a Christian I would have a problem with even one person ending up in hell through no fault of their own.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The answer is simple, if a person is truly blamless for their sin, then they are already in Christ, so don't worry about it. It's not really an issue, I find it easy enough to have faith that God will extend His mercy to these people, because I know that He could extend it to a sinner like me.

[Dr Lou Natic]

I can see how some people deserve to spend an eternity in a hell, ironically it is the people that believe in the bible.
Everyone else seems innocent because they are merely animals following what feels like the right thing to do.
Damn it would be funny if thats how it turned out.

[answers]

Ok then it's possible for an athiest person to go to heaven then right since you don't know.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An athiest will go to Hell, because the Bible says he will. A man once said you don't need to know everything about how electricity works, to be able to turn on a light. The same goes for Jesus' salvation. You don't need to know every aspect of it, Jesus makes it simple by basically saying: switch me on, and I will shine my salvation into your life. So it's just as simple to know that if you don't switch Jesus' shining light on, then you won't go to Heaven.

[answers]

Well keep search for answers. Your doing pretty good if your only in high school. My only advice to you is to try and keep an open mind on things.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lol when you've had prayer answered like I've had, then you will understand when I say that I will never stray from the faith. I asked God one day whether or not I should go to bible college. That night I read a book which talked about a person the same age as me, in the same situation, thinking the same thing, and what happened when he ignored his calling. This sort of freaked me out, that God would answer my prayer so clearly. Not only that, after I told my mum that I felt called to go to bible college and get into ministry, she said to me, that just before I was born she heard God tell her that one of her sons would go into ministry. NOW that freaked me out.

After this affirmation of my call, I set out to talk to people about God. I have so far converted an athiest to christianity. Have turned a homosexual straight. Kept someone from killing themself. And that's only this year, and only the effects of my ministry that I have seen. Who knows what else the seeds I have planted have sprouted.

Also what has conviced me of God's existence, is the two times that I've rebuked Satan. First time I was (like all males, thinking about sex and all that crap) and I just got so sick of it, I couldn't go to sleep or anything. So I said "In Jesus name I comand you to leave my thoughts Satan." And at that precise moment my mind was cleared of any impure thoughts. I even tried to think about them but I just couldn't. (P.S To the smart ass, I have never ever taken drugs, so don't put it down to that). Also the second time I rebuked Satan, was when I was talking to that Gay guy that I said I converted just before. I was nearly finished talking to him about God, and I was up to the final bit. I had just gone through about how he was going to hell, and giving him the reasons, when I decided that he was feeling guilty enough, so I was about to tell him about Jesus when my computer freezed. I didn't have this guys yahoo address, so there was no way I could have told him about Jesus latter. So I didn't restart my computer, because I would have lost his address. So I tried clicking ctrl alt delete and all that, didn't do anything. Tried mashing the keyboard didn't do anything. And then after about 2 mins I said "I rebuke you demon in Jesus' name, do not stand in the way of God's glory" And at that exact moment, to the micro second, my computer went absolutely fine. I hadn't pressed anything, I just said what I said, and that's what happened. I don't believe in a coincidence as big as that one. By the way, yes I did tell the guy about Jesus, and he did repent and accept Him as lord and savior.

And this is just the stuff that has happened in the last 8 months, man you don't know what you're missing out on. I've had friends, who have rebuked demons in people and seen the person totally turned around (Friend name is Bret Saunders, lives over the road, so yes he does exist). My Brother in laws brother (Brad Sieb, used to go to school with), saw a witch at school try to put a curse on his christian friend, but saw the witch turn totally blue in the face instead, and start shivering. There is so much stuff going on, that I seriously can't believe people still choose to ignore it. I have seen these things first hand, and I have had friends which I've known all my life see similar things as well.

Trust me, I'm not going to give up my faith, just because some scientists say it's wrong. They also said the world was flat, whats to say that they're not wrong again. It's not worth risking an eternity in Hell, on what a scientists says.

From Tim

[answers]

Hi, I'm going to start up a new post soon, on why people deserve to go to Hell. I'll post the start of it here tommorow, but I'll also post it brand new under the why people deserve to go..... heading as well.

CyA

[Dr Lou Natic]

I'm glad you got satan out of your computer:)

you are the most insane person to ever string a sentence together....

[micki]

I have always been curious about atheism...although it is recognosed as a belief...I think it's more of an assertion about a belief...rather than a belief in it's own right..that owes it's existence to belief and belief structures..!

It's origins coming from an empirical/scientific background...hence the lack of a belief sytem but more a assertion that belief in a being that there is no other being greater than is not scientifically/empirically true..!

[CaptainThor]

Twisted words in english isn't very hard, atheisim is a disbelief, just saying it hasn't been proving. If you are going to say that not believing is not a belief, it doesn't mean its a religion. I believe that flight is possible, and in fact, its proven, does that mean its a religion, hmm, maybe god gave us this great ability to fly.

[TheVisitor]

Persol said:
Saving you from what exactly? Oh, that's right.... the situation he set up. If I shoot you in the foot, and later operate on it and make it good as new (assuming I'm a doctor), I am not a cool guy. I'm fixing what I originally did.

====================

Let's keep this in the proper perspective .........

You said if I (God) shot you in the foot. No.
----------
You shot yourself in the foot by playing with a gun, you youself made after eating of the tree of knowledge and listening to the designs of some snake oil saleman instead of your father who wanted you to grow up and go into His bussiness with the power to heal , divine disernment, the abiliy to speak and make it so and be a source of Goodness for all eternity.


Then you say: (God) later operates on it and makes it good as new (assuming He's a doctor), He is not a cool guy. He's just fixing what He originally did. No.
----------
God comes down Himself as a man to save His wayward son, and in the operation gives the last drop of His own blood in a transfusion to save you and dies so that you may live.



That's why He's so great............That's why were worship Him today with all our hearts, it's His life that flows through our spiritual viens.

[EvilPoet]

God
Which one? (http://www.pantheon.org/cgi-bin/search/search.pl?Realm=mythica&nocpp=1&Match=1&Terms=god)

[Persol]

Originally posted by TheVisitor
You shot yourself in the foot by playing with a gun, you youself made after eating of the tree of knowledge
First, this is supposed my great-great-great-great-etc-grand-father that ate this fruit. If you are going to take it as a methaphor, you have also eaten from the tree of knowledge... as you learned how to speak, use a computer, etc... (although you appear to be on a diet now)

and listening to the designs of some snake oil saleman instead of your father who wanted you to grow up and go into His bussiness
I didn't go into the same field as my father, even though he wanted me too. He didn't disown me because of it. If you give someone free will, you can't get pissed when they use it.

with the power to heal , divine disernment, the abiliy to speak and make it so and be a source of Goodness for all eternity
If these 'talents' are what I continually see in your posts I will pass. I live to call them the superman complex, divine confusion, the ability to speak without saying anything with content.

God comes down Himself as a man to save His wayward son, and in the operation gives the last drop of His own blood in a transfusion to save you and dies so that you may live.
It's not exactly the same. He KNOWS he will end up in a good position.

That's why He's so great............That's why were worship Him today with all our hearts, it's His life that flows through our spiritual viens.
So using my doctor analogy, do you also worship a doctor who convinces his son to be a doctor, and then they both die while somehow saving your life? No... you may be grateful, but you won't worship them. Especially if they put you in the position where your life was threatened to begin with.

[TheVisitor]

I didn't go into the same field as my father, even though he wanted me too. He didn't disown me because of it. If you give someone free will, you can't get pissed when they use it.

==============

This line of reason is so small.
He never got angry because man chose free-will.
Man was free to begin with, but like any father , God warned His son of the dangers of playing with things that are not good for you.
Untill you are mature enough to handle the power to drive a car, for instance; It can be a deady weapon.

Man has always killed each other by using knowledge instead of God's Word.
Look what happened when he invented the sword, gun-powder, ect....
Automobiles kill more each year on the highways than all the wars combined.
Now Man has Atomic Weapons.
Wonder what He's going to do with them...?

[Horseman42]

answers,


You have presented lots of interesting ideas. Really you should have condensed it all into one post. Just makes things easier to read, no matter though.

No actually God didn't wan't Adam to take the fruit, He actually said, "Adam don't take the fruit". He did forsee that Adam would take the fruit, and he also forsaw that He would have to give His only son to pay for Adams sin.

Why would he not want Adam to take the fruit if he knew he was going to do it anyways? Why not place the tree on the moon or somewhere he couldn't get at it then. The only logical explaination is that he designed it all to happen the way it did because that's the way he wanted it to begin with.

God saves people from Hell, people send people to Hell. We are lucky anybody is going to Heaven as it is, it is only because of God's mercy that some are going to Heaven (we all deserve Hell, even if you people don't think you do, it doesn't really matter, because God thinks you do)

You forget though God set the whole system up to begin with though. He is the designer of the universe right?
Nobody would actively choose to go to hell. Again does it seem right anyone should suffer in hell? How do you feel about the people you care about (if they reject Jesus) roasting in hell?

Jesus said: "I'am the way the truth and the life, no one gets to the father except through me"

This doesn't really validate your position. Other religions could claim different factors for getting into heaven. How does your religion make it the right way?

The answer is simple, if a person is truly blamless for their sin, then they are already in Christ, so don't worry about it.

It is then therfore possible to get into heaven even if you don't believe in Jesus.

Ok so how do you know if you are truly blamless? What if I was brought up to be an atheist, and never heard of Christianity? Would I be blameless then? How about if I logically cannot explain believe in God based on the arguements I have heard so far? You see the problem here.

Lol when you've had prayer answered like I've had, then you will understand when I say that I will never stray from the faith. I asked God one day whether or not I should go to bible college.

A good collection of interesting stories. So based on these occurances you believe in God. Not trying to say your wrong to believe in God I just don't have it conviced to me yet.

Have turned a homosexual straight.

I'm amazed how did you do this? Can you please tell me this story, I'm very interested to know how you turned someone straight.

Anyhow got to go for now.

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by TheVisitor

Automobiles kill more each year on the highways than all the wars combined.

I have respect for your imaginative perspective on christianty etc, but where do you get these facts from?

[atheroy]

yeah cause if i recall rightly, 20 million russian soldiers died in WWII, that is excluding all of the people stalin sent to the gulags and killed because he thought they were traitors. that was just the russians people!!! there is no way 20 mill die every year from car accidents.

[Persol]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by answers
God saves people from Hell, people send people to Hell. We are lucky anybody is going to Heaven as it is, it is only because of God's mercy that some are going to Heaven
Yeah, if you'd just go around and kill all the babies we wouldn't have to worry about them going to hell.

Simple as that
I agree. Killing the babies to send them to heaven is 'simple as that'. You should be willing to sacrifice to save the souls of hundreds.

[Persol]

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Man was free to begin with, but like any father , God warned His son of the dangers of playing with things that are not good for you.
Untill you are mature enough to handle the power to drive a car, for instance; It can be a deady weapon. EXACTLY! Adam and Eve did not know enough to not 'play' with the tree of knowledge. It is the father's job to make sure you don't set the car keys in the kid's hand.

[Horseman42]

answers,

Just thinking a little bit more about what you said earlier...

God saves people from Hell, people send people to Hell. We are lucky anybody is going to Heaven as it is, it is only because of God's mercy that some are going to Heaven (we all deserve Hell, even if you people don't think you do, it doesn't really matter, because God thinks you do)

To put it simply what I think you're saying if we don't accept Jesus as our saviour we are destined for hell.

The question then becomes if I do accept Jesus only based on the fact that otherwise I'll end up in hell, am I not only doing it to save my own skin? What kind of a God would accept someone into heaven on the basis to only save themself, from eternal damnation?

It's like someone is holding a gun to your head. Where is the compasion, the freewill to choose, or the logic in that?

[venomx]

a rather intense fear of going to hell would make one act rather selfishly and try extra hard to get into gods good books, such going to far in trying to do good, and in doing so hurt others through self-serving behaviour...

i can think of yet more contradictions...

[edgar]

god is like giving us a free ticket. if you dont want to accept his teachings fine but this is going to happend.

[Zero Mass]

Originally posted by edgar
god is like giving us a free ticket. if you dont want to accept his teachings fine but this is going to happend.

God is a fairy tale, and to live your life in expectation of a prophesized future event is complete folly. Your entire life is a farce if you base it on the idea that you are being judged for what you do in life. The only judgment is that which you cast on yourself and others.

ZERO MASS

[Monkey Mak33]

Ok your point of view is "god is fake" or fairy tale yes? alright ill use some science (the religion of man) and talk to you with it since that seems to be the only thing your ignorant mind believes, yes i respect science and i am christian. Ok so the big bang, i hope you know what this is, is considered an infintesemly small atomic egg made out of anti matter and matter colliding, the matter and anti matter destroying each other, there being so much of each, had made an enormous explosion, (by the way a direct quote from my athiest friend who spends his life trying to prove christianity wrong with research and science.) making the universe, this being proven by the outward motion of the universe, from radio waves. that being said. Since EVERY SINGLE LAST THING in this universe every single thing even black matter, had have to have been created, according to scientists, ok so what makes you so sure that this atomic egg magically popped out of nowhere not being created in the least bit yet it had matter and matter cannot become without being created. Are you sure there wasnt a god to make it and if not i want to hear your explanation because it sounds pretty dumb arguing that there isnt anything bigger than us with that being said. and another thing if i am somehow magically false using what your scientists believe, well then how Isnt there a god.

[Medicine*Woman]

god is like giving us a free ticket. if you dont want to accept his teachings fine but this is going to happend.
*************
M*W: Can you back-up your statements with some sliver of proof?

[spidergoat]

Ok your point of view is "god is fake" or fairy tale yes? alright ill use some science (the religion of man) and talk to you with it since that seems to be the only thing your ignorant mind believes, yes i respect science and i am christian. Ok so the big bang, i hope you know what this is, is considered an infintesemly small atomic egg made out of anti matter and matter colliding, the matter and anti matter destroying each other, there being so much of each, had made an enormous explosion, (by the way a direct quote from my athiest friend who spends his life trying to prove christianity wrong with research and science.) making the universe, this being proven by the outward motion of the universe, from radio waves. that being said. Since EVERY SINGLE LAST THING in this universe every single thing even black matter, had have to have been created, according to scientists, ok so what makes you so sure that this atomic egg magically popped out of nowhere not being created in the least bit yet it had matter and matter cannot become without being created. Are you sure there wasnt a god to make it and if not i want to hear your explanation because it sounds pretty dumb arguing that there isnt anything bigger than us with that being said. and another thing if i am somehow magically false using what your scientists believe, well then how Isnt there a god.

No one who wrote this thread 4 years ago is around to respond to your statement. Allow me. There is no concept in physics of a "cosmic egg" from which everything emerged. It actually emerged from nothing. This was possible because it took no energy. The matter/antimatter premise is not that far from the truth. The positive energy is balanced by negative, so no net energy was required. The Big Band was an uncaused event. Uncaused events don't happen on the scale of things in which we live, but they do as subatomic scales, as described by Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle. No existing natural laws were broken when this happened, so there is no need for God.

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/vstenger/scientific_case_god150106.htm

Remarkably, the sum of the measured sums of the rest and kinetic energies of the bodies in the universe seems to be exactly cancelled by the negative potential energy that results from their mutual gravitational interactions. Within small measurement errors and quantum uncertainties, the mean energy density of the universe is exactly what it should be for a universe that appeared from an initial state of zero energy, within a small quantum uncertainty.

[Monkey Mak33]

No one who wrote this thread 4 years ago is around to respond to your statement. Allow me. There is no concept in physics of a "cosmic egg" from which everything emerged. It actually emerged from nothing. This was possible because it took no energy. The matter/antimatter premise is not that far from the truth. The positive energy is balanced by negative, so no net energy was required. The Big Band was an uncaused event. Uncaused events don't happen on the scale of things in which we live, but they do as subatomic scales, as described by Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle. No existing natural laws were broken when this happened, so there is no need for God.

Remarkably, the sum of the measured sums of the rest and kinetic energies of the bodies in the universe seems to be exactly cancelled by the negative potential energy that results from their mutual gravitational interactions. Within small measurement errors and quantum uncertainties, the mean energy density of the universe is exactly what it should be for a universe that appeared from an initial state of zero energy, within a small quantum uncertainty.

this theory was developed 1 year ago and is still proven scientifically valid and the antimatter and matter is what your quote talks about .... " energies of the bodies of the universe (matter) seems to be exactly cancelled by negative potential energy (anti matter) so whats your point you just proved me right lol also how can you prove that there is no god in the first place, my theory is relevant but your just making blank statements the quote backed up my quote lol and with a small quantum uncetanty from zero density means it came from nothing (no density = 0 over 1 cm cubed which means nothing was there so it was created from nothing, u should really look at a quote and actually read what someone has to say before saying its wrong and putting up a quote that says the same thing... ----just a thought----:bugeye:

[spidergoat]

If you are saying the same thing, what do you think of the premise that no God is required to create the universe? What was a God necessary to do? If some obvious violation of natural law occurred, that would indicate that God was a possibility, but that isn't the case.

[Monkey Mak33]

also, may i add, that if everything grew from nothing and everything nowadays grows from something what makes you so sure that nothing magically turned into everything, your theories are wrong and have nothing to do with the big bang which is a proven theory, the cosmic egg on the other hand which is infintesmily small with infinite density composed of anitmatter and matter is a valid scientific point still today and something had to create that cosmic egg because that is the rule of the universe and if thats the rule wouldnt the universe have to follow it too? so my theory is that the big bang was from the cosmic egg which couldnt have possibly ever came out of nowhere nothing can ever come out of nothingness completely, and by that i mean abscence of matter and antimatter. Something had to have created that cosmic egg im simply putting in a vote it was, i dunno, god. If not then u explain it

[Monkey Mak33]

also im going to ask that you prove scientifically and mathimatically that god doesnt exsist because everything else that doesnt exsist can be proven false so.... go ahead... explain -.- ---- sorry about spelling really bad typer lol---

[Monkey Mak33]

exactly there is no scientific way to prove that god excists and even if there is it wouldnt be accurate because we cant observe the whole universe so i guess it just depends on what you believe completely summarized -.- and i believe there is one , if you believe there isnt one you have just as much of a point as someone who believes in one i see the logic behind that considering no accusitions we can make about the whole universe at the moment would be completely 100 percent accurate, for we cannot observe the whole thing nor ever shall be able to

[USS Exeter]

I don't know what this is: I do not believe in a god, yet I do not deny the existence of a god. Is this an atheist belief or an agnostic belief?

[Monkey Mak33]

ok so basically no one is right so guys stop arguing cause you can never prove your right but if you do believe in one specific way the universe was created you can believe in god or not believe in him but then again thats what faith is.... not to upset but i think both sides are stalemated when it comes down to it there either is or isnt a god either or and no one will ever be able to prove either, i believe there is but whatever if you dont im not sayin its improbible but then im not saying i dont believe in the bible and everything i do beyond all reason does anyone see what im saying?

[spidergoat]

Your premise that the Law of Conservation of Energy would be violated if the universe came from nothing is not true.

If physics can explain that the presence of the universe doesn't conflict with existing laws, then the idea of God is not necessary. Since nothing supernatural has been shown to exist, naturalistic explanations must first be discounted before a supernatural one becomes plausable.

To disprove the existence of a God beyond a reasonable doubt, one must first give a description of that God. The God of the Abrahamic religions has specific properties that can be tested, since the idea is that it interacts with the natural world, and such effects should leave evidence. Most science works not on absolute proof, but what can be shown statistically to be true. Only math and geometry, possibly physics can be expected to provide absolute proof of relationships between symbols that we define.

[Monkey Mak33]

thats agnostic

[Monkey Mak33]

alright genious try creating something form absouloutly no matter at all.... it is a violation but then again that is a theory and there are many
thats what im saying

[Monkey Mak33]

k want evidence spidergoat.... were the only living fully evolved bacteria in this infitninately old universe... the only one planet weve found out of soo many billions of stars we observed the only one oh and i suppose thats coincidence right.... get a life -.-

[Monkey Mak33]

im waiting u to prove there is no god lol you can prove everything thats false mathimatically can i see an equation please?
like everything usually multiplies and combines like 100000 dna= 1 tissue can i get your equation then? how bout your theory of not disobeying natural law ok guys lets do it 0*?=1000000000000000000000*10^10000000000000000 stars can anyone get that one?

[Monkey Mak33]

hmm spidergoat your theory is seeming real logical :eek:

[spidergoat]

Why is the existence of life evidence of God? The rarity of life in the vastness of the universe is evidence that the universe was not created for the purpose of making life. .0007 of the mass of the universe is carbon, and life as we know it cannot survive in space. If the universe was created to harbor life, most of it is completely wasted.

The God Hypothesis can be rejected from a scientific point of view simply for being unnecessary. You can go on believing it if you want.

[USS Exeter]

I've already sided with Spidergoat on this one.

[Monkey Mak33]

oh wait im sorry the law of conservation of energy ill use the equation energy equals stars ready!??!?! m equals starting matter which is supposedly 0 al righty kids now the number of stars is 100000000000000000000000000000000*10^1000000000000 00000 or more
.5E= Mi Ni (thats the conservation of energy's equation) right so that equals this the equation of spidergoats "perfectly naturually happening law" which would equal eachother
oh and the imput of energy since there was nothing was zip so we got this

.5( 100000000000000000000000000000000*10^1000000000000 00000 )= 0^o N^o

huh that doesnt equal each other looks like your wrong spider goat

[Monkey Mak33]

lol i think someone just got pwn3d

[spidergoat]

im waiting u to prove there is no god lol you can prove everything thats false mathimatically can i see an equation please?
like everything usually multiplies and combines like 100000 dna= 1 tissue can i get your equation then? how bout your theory of not disobeying natural law ok guys lets do it 0*?=1000000000000000000000*10^10000000000000000 stars can anyone get that one?

There are an infinite number of premises that cannot be disproven. So, being unable to disprove something is not evidence of it's existence. The most famous example of this is Russell's Teapot. Can anyone disprove that there is a small teapot somewhere in orbit around our sun? ...one small enough to evade a search by our most powerful telescopes? The burden of proof is on you to show the existence of God, not on me to disprove it.

[Monkey Mak33]

No one who wrote this thread 4 years ago is around to respond to your statement. Allow me. There is no concept in physics of a "cosmic egg" from which everything emerged. It actually emerged from nothing. This was possible because it took no energy. The matter/antimatter premise is not that far from the truth. The positive energy is balanced by negative, so no net energy was required. The Big Band was an uncaused event. Uncaused events don't happen on the scale of things in which we live, but they do as subatomic scales, as described by Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle. No existing natural laws were broken when this happened, so there is no need for Gol


Remarkably, the sum of the measured sums of the rest and kinetic energies of the bodies in the universe seems to be exactly cancelled by the negative potential energy that results from their mutual gravitational interactions. Within small measurement errors and quantum uncertainties, the mean energy density of the universe is exactly what it should be for a universe that appeared from an initial state of zero energy, within a small quantum uncertainty.



see this u were agreeing with me then say that your theory is right i proved that wrong mathimatically speaking 1 quintillion or more doesnt equal zero which you said it did according to the rule of conservation of energy so according to your rule... ,0007 still doesnt equal zero so you just contridicted your own speaking, athiest or non athiest u proved that there was a god was wrong with science and i proved that the theory that led you to prove god was wrong was wrong with mathematics, whats your point...

[Monkey Mak33]

if u cant disprove it then looks like i was right -.- ur just making excuses. now saying that your equation was wrong ok and no that was a mis enterpretation of my math here ill break it down since you seem to need it

conservation of energy- .5Exerted energy= Mass^ input Neutrons ^ imput you had said that your universe theory exerted from nothing right and there are a whole lotta stars out there so the equation of your theory turns out to be

.5(infinite)= 0^0 (0^0)

(infinite) does not equal zero so you said that it was not a contridiction of the natural of the conservation of energy which would have been a good point, if ud have actually been correct the cosmic egg theory still stands because

(infinite)= (infinite) ^1 burst of energy(input) (0) neutrons because the matter and antimatter equal each other out ^1 so basically (infinite)=(infinite) which is a correct and valid statement therefore yours is false and my is vaild and loical that the cosmic egg with infininite mass of an infintesibly small equation of an equal number of antimatter and matter which have opposite newtrons and 1-1 =o so the neutrons were nulled so mine stands logical that the infintesibly small force known as the cosmic egg would have to be created and in that lies somthing that had to create it so your wrong and there is a possibility that god had created if not you name what did there happy i proved you wrong

[Monkey Mak33]

are you gonna reply any time soon?

[Monkey Mak33]

i guess i win this one then again i dont take honor in that lol arguing on the internet is like the special olympics after all oh and russels teapot is another example of athiests concentrating on the significance of man because a teapot is man made god was not made, he was eternal always there and always shall be yet russell has mad a manmade object resemble god, ever notice that? anyway there couldnt be a teapot because we would have to reach the sun with it.. and we would have to make it since there are no other planets near us that have life god is not man made therefore russells opposition on the matter wouldnt be true the teapot would be improbible and impossible but god not being man made could have always been there and we havent even reached the sun yet... just incase you didnt know. God in a sense of fact is like the universe but he was there before. its not manmade but its there? can you see the end of the universe sir? no? oh i guess the universe doesnt exist because you cant see the end of it even with your most powerful microscopes and everything has an end so basically russell is saying the universe doesnt excist but we know this to be a false fact so why would you think its right about one thing if its wrong about the other?

[Monkey Mak33]

now you can go ahead and prove why god isnt there please -.-

[spidergoat]

In general relativity, space-time can be empty of matter or radiation and still contain energy stored in its curvature. Uncaused, random quantum fluctuations in a flat, empty, featureless space-time can produce local regions with positive or negative curvature. This is called the "space-time foam" and the regions are called "bubbles of false vacuum." Wherever the curvature is positive a bubble of false vacuum will, according to Einstein's equations, exponentially inflate. In 10^-42 seconds the bubble will expand to the size of a proton and the energy within will be sufficient to produce all the mass of the universe.

The bubbles start out with no matter, radiation, or force fields and maximum entropy. They contain energy in their curvature, and so are a "false vacuum." As they expand, the energy within increases exponentially. This does not violate energy conservation since the false vacuum has a negative pressure (believe me, this is all follows from the equations that Einstein wrote down in 1916) so the expanding bubble does work on itself.

INFLATION AND CREATION (http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Cosmo/inflat.html)
Victor J. Stenger

[spidergoat]

now you can go ahead and prove why god isnt there please -.-

Which God? The one that answers prayers? Scientific studies in cooperation with religious authorities have shown no "prayer effect". The one that creates life? The chemistry of DNA proves that nothing but matter is required for a runaway process of evolution to lead to intelligent beings. The one that tells prophets what the future will be like? No specific and risky predictions have come true (general ones may come true, but that isn't proof of anything)... Should I go on?

[Monkey Mak33]

yes but according to your equation there was no random quantum fluxuation because quatum time contiunium relates to the universe and even that had matter before your universe was created there was no time there was nothing to create the matter therefore nothing to create the bubble and einstien also helped in the cosmic egg theory btw

[Monkey Mak33]

still i have seen no mathimatical evidence or equations of what your saying your making broad statements and another thing says in the bible well you wouldnt know at least but it would be probable it wouldnt be awnswered because in the bible it says "thou shalt not test your god" and i think praying for scientifical evidence would count dont you think so he wouldnt grant your prayer because you were testing him which is against what his son had said also, emp ratios excist and there have been proven hauntings so what makes you thinks souls and gods dont excist god and angels and ghost and demons and aliens and whathave you are all supernatural no one has proven aliens dont excist no one has proven ghosts dont excist they actually have proven that ghosts do excist btw so what makes you think that they would be able to prove that god which is supernatural would not excist.

[spidergoat]

The early universe was in a state of maximum entropy, so where was God's hand in creating order? ...Because simple cooling and phase transition explains the emergence of the complexity we call chemistry.

[Monkey Mak33]

aanyways i think ive proved you wrong on just about everything that you have said so far so im going to go to bed after all it is 1:04 am -.- night and when u die dont come cryin to me to try not to prove you wrong because you think you can have a behavior which is a cause without an effect and everything negative you do will have an effect that is common knowledge so and you hope that you can do what ever you want and have escape maintained behavior towards death because of all the bad things that you have probably committed as a person said before. im too tired to look up the name and too tired to argue with an ignorant idiot who consistently contridicts himself so good night

[Monkey Mak33]

i already proved mathimatically with the equation that you gave me that the universe could not have been made out of nothing! once again listen u cant really do math can you if you think im wrong here ill give you this, your equation .5 (Exerted total energy or number of stars)=
(mass of original energy which would be zero for your theory which is nothing became something)^ (input which is 0 because of no big bang explosion or 1 because of your magical bubble that isnt made out of matter) (number of neutrons of nothing= 0) ^ input

get those two sides to equal each other genius you better recheck your facts because you are severely wrong about your fact about how the universe was made and there are huge flaws in that theory so you go on about your false facts im going to bed u ignorant athiest

[spidergoat]

So you bring up several new arguments. The existence of supernatural entities and phenomenon like ESP (EMP?) and ghosts, none of which have been shown to exist. The next argument is that God is the source of moral behavior, which is also false. Moral behavior exists independently of religions and is an evolutionary characteristic of human beings as social creatures.

Here is the thing you are leaving out of your "equation". The negative gravitational potential energy of the universe has the same magnitude as the positive energy contained in its contents (matter and radiation), and hence the total energy of the universe is indeed zero (or at least close to zero).

[shaman_]

i guess i win this one then again i dont take honor in that lol arguing on the internet is like the special olympics after all oh and russels teapot is another example of athiests concentrating on the significance of man because a teapot is man made god was not made, he was eternal always there and always shall be yet russell has mad a manmade object resemble god, ever notice that? anyway there couldnt be a teapot because we would have to reach the sun with it.. and we would have to make it since there are no other planets near us that have life god is not man made therefore russells opposition on the matter wouldnt be true the teapot would be improbible and impossible but god not being man made could have always been there and we havent even reached the sun yet... just incase you didnt know. God in a sense of fact is like the universe but he was there before. its not manmade but its there? can you see the end of the universe sir? no? oh i guess the universe doesnt exist because you cant see the end of it even with your most powerful microscopes and everything has an end so basically russell is saying the universe doesnt excist but we know this to be a false fact so why would you think its right about one thing if its wrong about the other?:wtf:

[Anti-Flag]

Is it troll feeding time already? My turn!

Prove the non-existence of invisible pink unicorns. Don't respond until you've searched the entire universe for them because they could be anywhere so until you've looked you can't prove a thing.

If the universe can't come from nothing on the basis that nothing can then neither can god, after all, nothing can, right? Breaking that rule for god makes your first premise false. Simple logic.

You think you're special because this planet is the only known life in the universe? Seeing as you're so fond of math go away and work out how many billions of galaxies there would be in an infinite and constantly expanding universe(you can start with a few known ones if you like), then work out how many billions upon billions of stars each galaxy contains, then work out the billions of planets in orbit around those stars. It's almost a mathematical certainty that other life would exist somewhere, and if it doesn't then according to you god created it all for, well nothing really. That's an awful big waste of space. Sounds logical.:shrug:
Would also love to see your proof that says we haven't found life on these 'billions' of planets, we've barely left our own planet. Or do you think our telescopes would see the aliens waving at us when they can barely make out planets?
Still think you're special huh? Get over yourself.

I advise you to go away and think about things for a while. I suspect you're just a reincarnation of a former member who will ignore this advice and just continue to troll, but rest assured you'll still be entertainingly foolish.

[ronan]

The early universe was in a state of maximum entropy, so where was God's hand in creating order? ...Because simple cooling and phase transition explains the emergence of the complexity we call chemistry.

You are wrong spidergoat, the universe at "birth" was in low entropy because entropy is seen to always increase with time (so diminush in reverse time.)

It is true that as you say that it implies that something happen (god?) to be in such state ;)

[Cris]

Monkey,

Welcome to sciforums BTW.

Ok so the big bang, i hope you know what this is, is considered an infintesemly small atomic egg made out of anti matter and matter colliding, the matter and anti matter destroying each other, there being so much of each, had made an enormous explosion, …….. making the universe, this being proven by the outward motion of the universe, from radio waves. that being said. Apparently nothing about BB theory has yet to approach anything close to a proof. At the current time the theory is broken, the math doesn’t work.

Since EVERY SINGLE LAST THING in this universe every single thing even black matter, had have to have been created, according to scientists,I’m pretty sure you will not be able to find any reputable scientist that understands the issues who would make such a statement. The current understanding is that nothing is created or destroyed. If BB did occur then it would appear to be no more than a point in time where everything was denser than it is now.

ok so what makes you so sure that this atomic egg magically popped out of nowhere not being created in the least bit yet it had matter and matter cannot become without being created.Within BB theory there appears to be much debate about the nature of its beginning. Inflationary theory tends to show that there was never a nothing.

Are you sure there wasnt a god to make it and if not i want to hear your explanation because it sounds pretty dumb arguing that there isnt anything bigger than us with that being said. and another thing if i am somehow magically false using what your scientists believe, well then how Isnt there a god.Whether there was a BB and its nature is still subject to much debate within science with some groups denying it ever occurred. Others more recently have proposed the cyclic model of expansion, collapse, bang, and repeat. We seem to be very far from understanding the history of what we call the universe and we are very far from exhausting all the natural explanations.

Introducing a baseless fantasy like a god doesn’t appear to help our understanding or further our knowledge of reality. But if the reasoning for proposing a creator god is that everything must be created then that simply doesn’t move us forward since that raises the question of how god was created. If you propose that there must be a first uncaused cause then that defeats the claim that everything must be created and we are back to the universe having always existed – i.e. what we observe – nothing is ever created or destroyed.

For the moment the need for a creator cannot be established, and without any evidential support that such things could exist, we are left with no meaningful basis to propose a god exists.

[Monkey Mak33]

apparently no theory has yet to prove any proof -.- whats your point

[spidergoat]

Definitely not the God Theory.

[Monkey Mak33]

look all im saying is that i proved spidergoat wrong in every single thing but he wouldnt awnswer my one question directly. prove that god doesnt exsist. he simply just tried to make me prove he did and he just avoided the question now if some athiest douche wants to give me evidential scientific AND mathimatical proof on why he doesnt exsist id like you to go ahead and prove it

[Monkey Mak33]

when ya get to that ill check this thread and yes as ive already stated anything that is wrong can be proved in all 3 manners that it is false.

[Monkey Mak33]

haha mother fucking douche bags dont say im wrong if you cant fuckin prove it. So you guys can go ahead and go masturbate and shove sticks up your gay asses and not think your going to hell for it. call me a troll but im probably not a slave to sin. so you guys can go ahead try to find a way and then when you get one that doesnt but you think it does directly you can go shove it up your ass and masturbate with that too. since you think that no cause has any effect to it which may i add every cause has an effect. ---bye fuckers---

[spidergoat]

One can always reformuate their definition of God to avoid any possible test. Such a concept is not falsifiable. If God interacts with the physical world like he is alleged to do, there is no evidence for it. Therefore, the idea that there is a God is disproven.

Also, none of us has tried to insult you, but you have been very rude. I can only conclude that you are very insecure in your faith, and are unable to support it with a logical argument.

[Monkey Mak33]

you still havent proven me wrong j hole

[spidergoat]

The notion that there are definitions of God that cannot be disproven is not an original thought. It's one of the last resorts of theists that have already lost the argument.

[Monkey Mak33]

aany way im gonna state what spidergoat has said so far... ready kids?

ok here it is- your cosmic egg theory is wrong but im gonna present another theory that hasnt even been proven to be correct and say its right

he cant prove me wrong he just keeps on making up excuses of how not to prove me wrong

The other joe said your wrong with your theory lemme introduce another unproved theory

and if you guys are so intact on proving god doesnt excist then why cant you prove it

"guess its troll feeding time" isnt rude in the least bit right? oh wait no its not when you say it to a christian but when i insult you its soo bad -.-

there is no evidence of it is not correct because there is also no evidence that he is not there which i have asked you to say if there was on many occasions but you chose to ask me to prove that there is. if you dont know about a subject then dont argue about it because your argument is on a base
base of baselessness just like you say mine is and by the way god isnt made of matter i never said that so that guy that said it disproved the thoery's of the universe is wrong because when i said about the creation of the universe i was saying about the creation of matter and anti matter, spirits have been proven to excist--- EMPS are a scientifical term of the energy given off by spectral matter

[Monkey Mak33]

lost the argument no i just said that from the beggining and you just kept stating why i had to prove it well if no one can really prove it and you cant also disprove it in the least bit who are you to say it is wrong. it is simply just a matter of judgement

[spidergoat]

What is God?

The Christian God is supposed to have definite effects on the physical world. He is assumed to have created the planets, the species, intervened in human affairs with things like floods, favored one culture over another, spoke to prophets, dictated moral rules. If I can show beyond a reasonable doubt that there are naturalistic causes for these events and not supernatural ones, then scientifically, the God Hypothesis has been disproven.

[Monkey Mak33]

Is it troll feeding time already? My turn!

Prove the non-existence of invisible pink unicorns. Don't respond until you've searched the entire universe for them because they could be anywhere so until you've looked you can't prove a thing.

If the universe can't come from nothing on the basis that nothing can then neither can god, after all, nothing can, right? Breaking that rule for god makes your first premise false. Simple logic.

You think you're special because this planet is the only known life in the universe? Seeing as you're so fond of math go away and work out how many billions of galaxies there would be in an infinite and constantly expanding universe(you can start with a few known ones if you like), then work out how many billions upon billions of stars each galaxy contains, then work out the billions of planets in orbit around those stars. It's almost a mathematical certainty that other life would exist somewhere, and if it doesn't then according to you god created it all for, well nothing really. That's an awful big waste of space. Sounds logical.:shrug:
Would also love to see your proof that says we haven't found life on these 'billions' of planets, we've barely left our own planet. Or do you think our telescopes would see the aliens waving at us when they can barely make out planets?
Still think you're special huh? Get over yourself.

I advise you to go away and think about things for a while. I suspect you're just a reincarnation of a former member who will ignore this advice and just continue to troll, but rest assured you'll still be entertainingly foolish.


huh your scientists are doing that... funny they havent found one bit of life on any other planet than simple non evolving bacteria isnt that wonderful? i mean looks like if there wasnt there would at least be one more planet out of any of your other billions of planets that scientists are still examining, its actually funny in a way your trying to prove me wrong yet we are the only ones out of billions and billions of stars... kinda makes you wonder :poke:
ok so you say that the universe has .0007 matter of carbon. true. has any formed any examinable life or if that life does excist has it excerted any communicational waves such as radio wave or other because we would have picked up on it by now... i really dont see what your trying to prove. oh were the only planet. god said he sent life to earth. huh. makes you wonder i dunno its just that it makes you seem like you think your special huh, well if you want to why dont you look for another planet who has life if im soo wrong about that matter. Or maybye you can depend on your precious scientists to try to find one for your and prove me wrong.

FACT: earth is the only planet found with evolved life other than bacteria and no aliens wouldnt be waving our hands at them but we would be able to observe features indicating live on other planets, such as offected o zones like ours, or maybye buildings or i dunno.... WATER???!?!? huh one planet out of the so many that your precious scientists had to oberserve to try to prove it wrong i know its a hard fact to swallow but it is the only planet with life on it that we have found to date

FACT2: from the bible : god has said to had made life on earth -if this isnt true please point out another planet with life on it. oh wait you cant--

kinda adds up dont cha think? ----:shrug:-----

[Monkey Mak33]

prove that scientifically lol go ahead and have fun

[spidergoat]

I demand you prove aliens don't exist.

[Cris]

Monkey,

apparently no theory has yet to prove any proof -.- whats your pointThe basis of your argument was that science had proved something.

[Cris]

Monkey,

FACT2: from the bible : god has said to had made life on earth -if this isnt true please point out another planet with life on it. oh wait you cant—You aren’t making much sense here.

Is your claim of fact that the bible has that quote? If yes then I agree that is a fact.

But if your claim is that “god has said to had made life on earth”, then that cannot be shown to be fact.

The issue of life elsewhere seems irrelevant to the argument of whether a god exists or not. If life as we know it is unique then that still would not lead to a valid conclusion that your bible statement is true.

[Cris]

Monkey,

but we would be able to observe features indicating live on other planets, such as offected o zones like ours, or maybye buildings or i dunno.... WATER???!?!? You appear to have an unrealistic perception of what scince is able to observe regarding distant planets. None of the planets in our solar system appear hospitable to our form of life except perhaps under the ice of one of the moons of Jupiter. But as for planets in other systems: We are currently barely able to detect their existence and most are only determined mathematically. We are ceratinly not yet in any position to detect any specfic features on such distant objects.

[Cris]

Monkey,

and if you guys are so intact on proving god doesnt excist then why cant you prove it Generally it is not considered possible to prove a particular object does not exist since we are currently incapable of searching every corner of the universe to verify its non existence. What is considered possible is to prove that something does exist. The primary objection to theist arguments is that theist’s claim a god exists but cannot support their claims, and since the claims are so fantastic and unsupportable many folks do not find the arguments credible or believable.

To many the claims seems so childish, incredible, and idiotic that that are prepared to assert that such a thing does not exist. Not because they can prove non existence but purely on the basis of incredulity.

"guess its troll feeding time" isnt rude in the least bit right? oh wait no its not when you say it to a christian but when i insult you its soo bad -.-Your first sentence in this thread where you reopened it included the phrase “ that seems to be the only thing your ignorant mind believes, – this is an attempt to bait people into an emotional response – this is typical of trolling. You have been fairly accurately identified.

spirits have been proven to excist--- EMPS are a scientifical term of the energy given off by spectral matterPlease quote a reputable scientific peer reviewed article to substantiate your claim.

[nova900]

huh your scientists are doing that... funny they havent found one bit of life on any other planet than simple non evolving bacteria isnt that wonderful? i mean looks like if there wasnt there would at least be one more planet out of any of your other billions of planets that scientists are still examining, its actually funny in a way your trying to prove me wrong yet we are the only ones out of billions and billions of stars... kinda makes you wonder :poke:
ok so you say that the universe has .0007 matter of carbon. true. has any formed any examinable life or if that life does excist has it excerted any communicational waves such as radio wave or other because we would have picked up on it by now... i really dont see what your trying to prove. oh were the only planet. god said he sent life to earth. huh. makes you wonder i dunno its just that it makes you seem like you think your special huh, well if you want to why dont you look for another planet who has life if im soo wrong about that matter. Or maybye you can depend on your precious scientists to try to find one for your and prove me wrong.

FACT: earth is the only planet found with evolved life other than bacteria and no aliens wouldnt be waving our hands at them but we would be able to observe features indicating live on other planets, such as offected o zones like ours, or maybye buildings or i dunno.... WATER???!?!? huh one planet out of the so many that your precious scientists had to oberserve to try to prove it wrong i know its a hard fact to swallow but it is the only planet with life on it that we have found to date



You have just flunked Astronomy 101.
You need to get some basic facts straight about the current research concerning detecting life around other stars.
"Astronomy" magazine is a monthly publication that is usually quite good.

yours truly,
the son of sagan;)

[Anti-Flag]

huh your scientists are doing that... funny they havent found one bit of life on any other planet than simple non evolving bacteria isnt that wonderful?
So we're visiting other planets now are we? You're priceless.

i mean looks like if there wasnt there would at least be one more planet out of any of your other billions of planets that scientists are still examining, its actually funny in a way your trying to prove me wrong yet we are the only ones out of billions and billions of stars... kinda makes you wonder :poke:
See above about not having been to other planets yet. Which means by your own statements absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Keep trying though, you're only tying yourself in knots and looking dumb with your wild claims, but you were warned.

ok so you say that the universe has .0007 matter of carbon. true. has any formed any examinable life or if that life does excist has it excerted any communicational waves such as radio wave or other because we would have picked up on it by now... i really dont see what your trying to prove.
I said that huh? Did you pull that out of the same place you get your other 'facts'.
Just out of curiousity do you know anything about the speed of sound(those waves you're refering to) and how long it would take them to travel to the nearest star let alone the others? How about how long we've been directing waves into space?

oh were the only planet. god said he sent life to earth. huh.
Tell you that himself did he? Tell him to let the rest of us know.:rolleyes:

makes you wonder i dunno its just that it makes you seem like you think your special huh, well if you want to why dont you look for another planet who has life if im soo wrong about that matter. Or maybye you can depend on your precious scientists to try to find one for your and prove me wrong.
We've been a spacefaring race for less than 60 years, we've visited our own moon less than 10 times and other planets(wait I'm just going to count this one) Ah yes, 0. Of course however you're conditioned to believe in miracles.

FACT: earth is the only planet found with evolved life other than bacteria and no aliens wouldnt be waving our hands at them but we would be able to observe features indicating live on other planets, such as offected o zones like ours, or maybye buildings or i dunno.... WATER???!?!?
FACT: Planets we've stepped foot on - 1, ammount that have contained life - 1 = 100%
Planets we've probed - 8(9 if you included the recently downgraded pluto)
ammount containing life = 1 so that's 12.5% of planets.
Hell even I consider those numbers generous. Even so I'm not entirely sure what kind of capabilities you think we have, but I suggest a reality check. Go look it up, I'm not going to waste my life educating you in great detail.

huh one planet out of the so many that your precious scientists had to oberserve to try to prove it wrong i know its a hard fact to swallow but it is the only planet with life on it that we have found to date
See above. I'll give you a hint at this point, we can't see the planets in that much detail with our current technology.

FACT2: from the bible : god has said to had made life on earth -if this isnt true please point out another planet with life on it. oh wait you cant--
That weakass argument is the best you can come up with? A book written by men says 'god created life on our own planet' so everything else in it must be true.
Well I'm convinced. From now on I shall be a Muslim. Or did I chose the wrong religion? The bible isn't the only religious text, and you're not a member of the only religion in the world, your text has no more importance in proving your arguments than the others do.
It's called circular logic, I exist on planet, decide to write that god creates life on planet, I exist on planet, proving therefore I was created by god, proving therefore I exist because of god etc ad nasuem.

kinda adds up dont cha think? ----:shrug:-----
Bless, you're delusional.
Here's a second bit of advice for you, you won't get m/any conversions here as most of your arguments have been previously covered. You want to be Christian then that's fine, not everybody cares if god exists and you've admitted you can't prove he does, so why do you care if people don't share your beliefs? Why do you even think they should believe given your own statements?

EDIT: Come up with something sensible as a response, or you may find very quickly what it's like to be on everybody's ignore list, or worse than that you may find yourself banned for trolling.

[Anti-Flag]

You have just flunked Astronomy 101.


Astronomy 101, Physics 101, Philosophy 101, Logic 101, Maths 101, Hell to be honest with you reading his posts make me believe he hasn't finished fourth grade yet.;)

[ronan]

Come one guys, think a little more, god has to exist, that's an evidence.

If you do not see that, I think you will still be able to live but you will miss one beautiful aspect of life.

Explain me how you can be conscious of this world.

Science cannot answer this question because the answer lies in god :)

[Cris]

ronan,

Come one guys, think a little more, god has to exist, that's an evidence.

If you do not see that, I think you will still be able to live but you will miss one beautiful aspect of life.

Explain me how you can be conscious of this world.

Science cannot answer this question because the answer lies in god And the connection to human consciousness and a fantasy is what?

[ronan]

ronan,

And the connection to human consciousness and a fantasy is what?

What do you mean?

Science is not powerful enough to explain our feelings (qualia), the most basic thing in life.

If you defined god as the principle by which you can have feeling (qualia)
then god exist

Please note that this definition is related to (I do not go in the details here) the one used in ancient times.

[spidergoat]

Science explains the existence of consciousness if not all the details. It is a trait we evolved for self-preservation. There is no evidence of God anywhere.

[ronan]

Science explains the existence of consciousness if not all the details. It is a trait we evolved for self-preservation. There is no evidence of God anywhere.

I am sorry but you do not know anything about what consciousness is.
I request you to look on the net for "qualia"

When you are talking about a traits that evolved you are talking about the cognitive abilities and the brain mechanism that will make you do smart decision regarding the situation. But why are they accompanied by consciousness? This is the problem that science CANNOT answer.

[Cris]

ronan,

What do you mean?You effectively asserted that consciousness is the result of a fantasy object you call god.

Science is not powerful enough to explain our feelings (qualia), the most basic thing in life.And you are trying to imply it never will which is not a valid conclusion. But the absence of our understanding gives no basis to suggest a fantasy supernatural entity is involved.

If you defined god as the principle by which you can have feeling (qualia)
then god existWhich is speculative nonsense.

[ronan]

ronan,
You effectively asserted that consciousness is the result of a fantasy object you call god.


No , I defined god (not a fantasy object but a word) as signifiing the "thing"from which conciousness arise


And you are trying to imply it never will which is not a valid conclusion. But the absence of our understanding gives no basis to suggest a fantasy supernatural entity is involved.
Which is speculative nonsense.

It will never be explained by what we have now in science, the principle of supervenience is not powerful enough to explain consciousness because all the laws of the universe could be there without the existence of consciousness.
AND if we want to explain consciousness, we will have to add somethign, this what I call god.

[Enmos]

No , I defined god (not a fantasy object but a word) as signifiing the "thing"from which conciousness arise
You mean the brain ?

[spidergoat]

Another God of the gaps argument. I don't think consciousness is that much of a scientific problem. It's a function of a complex brain, and all apes have it. It's a reality modeling engine, and part of that model is the self, it's not even all that accurate a model. It's extremely naive to declare that it's not a phenomenon science can address. What's the mystery? It's made of information. It probably arose as a result of the need to live in a complex social environment. One would have to rule out all plausable naturalistic explanations before the supernatural one could have a chance.

[Cris]

Ronan,

No , I defined god (not a fantasy object but a word) The word god represents a concept that has no factual basis but is a creation of man’s imagination, i.e. a fantasy. You can turn the fantasy into a reality by demonstrating the existence of a god, until then you have nothing but a fantasy – deal with it. .

It will never be explained by what we have now in science,You cannot know enough about the nuances of science to assert a “never” condition as authoritative. This is just your personal opinion.

the principle of supervenience is not powerful enough to explain consciousness because all the laws of the universe could be there without the existence of consciousness.Speculative nonsense again. We simply do not yet understand consciousness and we need to continue to study it. Advances in medical technology are increasing our ability to understand how the brain operates. It is very premature at this point to suggest the brain is not the cause of consciousness.

AND if we want to explain consciousness, we will have to add somethign, this what I call god.That’s simply idiotic. All you are saying is that there is something complex we don’t understand and that a fantasy entity is the cause.

[ronan]

You mean the brain ?

Another God of the gaps argument. I don't think consciousness is that much of a scientific problem. It's a function of a complex brain, and all apes have it. It's a reality modeling engine, and part of that model is the self, it's not even all that accurate a model. It's extremely naive to declare that it's not a phenomenon science can address. What's the mystery? It's made of information. It probably arose as a result of the need to live in a complex social environment. One would have to rule out all plausable naturalistic explanations before the supernatural one could have a chance.


Speculative nonsense again. We simply do not yet understand consciousness and we need to continue to study it. Advances in medical technology are increasing our ability to understand how the brain operates. It is very premature at this point to suggest the brain is not the cause of consciousness.

That’s simply idiotic. All you are saying is that there is something complex we don’t understand and that a fantasy entity is the cause.


You cannot know enough about the nuances of science to assert a “never” condition as authoritative. This is just your personal opinion.


All of you makes again the same mistake:
The complex behavior resulting by the brain could be indeed be explained by neuroscience but why it is accompanied by consciousness.

Please before continuing telling the same thing and then insulting me, check out on the net "qualia" I don't want to lose time to explain you something that is evident. (please refer to the argument cited at the end of this reply)

Ronan,
The word god represents a concept that has no factual basis but is a creation of man’s imagination, i.e. a fantasy. You can turn the fantasy into a reality by demonstrating the existence of a god, until then you have nothing but a fantasy – deal with it. .


The idea is to give the word god (which is always a creation of humans minds) a factual basis: the existence of consciousness, so please stop putting it on a garbage by repeating the word fantasy. You can say that for every scientific concept as well, particles are fantasy for example, but it is still useful to use the word because it represent something that happem in the world.


Please keep polite, we are all on the same level and to say someone is stupid make the other believe you are even more stupid. It is a vicious circle.

In philosophy, there is debate over qualia and you will find many argument including JAckson's argument (What Mary did not know), Chalmers'zombie argument, Nagel's argument (what is it like to be a bat) and probably many other that really suggest (if not prove) that consciousness is not explanable by today science and something more is needed .

Come back when informed please, else the debate will become a ping pong games without learning for both of us .

[Michael]

Each autonomous individual emerges holographically within egoless ontological consciousness as a non-dimensional geometric point within the transcendental thought-wave matrix. :D

[Monkey Mak33]

kkk so the book of genisis. Not SAYING THIS IS A PROVEN THEORY BUT IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY ACURATE. understand this. im not going for either side, but here it goes. ok so we are in eon 8, this is a fact now there are 7 eons before us, no what if in the bible it says "it took 7 days for god to make earth" however it also says "time does not exsist to god so it would have to be 7 of some measurement, now in the time it takes to make a planet and solar system and universe. id have to say eons would be the best period of time to measure it in agreed. so 7days and 7eons
we have this straight. Now in the bible it says he created the universe, then sun, then earth, then water, then plants, then animals, and finally humans. All appear to be in the correct order. Just stating something that i think to be eerily similar to that which is of when they made this they had but simple simple astronomy and thought that the earth still revolved around the sun. These quotes from the book of gensis seem to be eerily acurate when you lengthen the time sequence to eons. My theory being of 1 of the days, the creation of the universe taking up about 6.5 eons or so and the rest of the days taking up about .5 (approximately, not exact terms.) as i had stated before, without doing any reasearch foolishly, was that no other planet had water, this happens to be false, but what is also considered true is that none of the 1,407,087^ 10 (the number keeps going up so no number is exact) planets have life that were found. Not meaning there isnt any more life on any other planet. So... yeah thats all i really have to say. the above information was thoroughly researched by me and it was painstakingly hard. so if you dont agree id at least like a little gratitude for the research ;) Thank you for your time in reading this. now in saying this i am not proving athiesm wrong or right but there was a good chance given the ancient text that could have not used astronomy and not developed by astronomers to be very very accurate so in so im saying there is a chance there might be no god so athiests might be right but there is also a chance that there may be a god so thiests are also correct, or both could be wrong whichever you prefer, herein saying thiesim beliefs are not self defeating nor is athiesm , its kind of which side do you choose to believe in.

I hope ive at least lessened the tension between the two groups.
adios-Monkey Mak33-:D

[Monkey Mak33]

and im not sure that thats english michael but if it happens to be more power to you lol

[spidergoat]

If a biblical day is an eon, then there is a problem. He made plants at least an eon before the sun, which is required for them to live, and flowering plants before the insects required to pollinate them. Besides, we already know that animals existed for a long time before flowers came about.

[codanblad]

You want your evidence, you won't get it. No matter what you do, it is impossible for you to become a Christian. There is absolutely no chance of it. Because God rejects the proud. He will never regenerate your desires. If you stay like you are then your going to Hell. Simple isn't it, yet you will never understand.

god rejects pretty much everyone. you really think every buddhist deserves to go to hell? what are their crimes? not appealing to god's ego? and every homosexual? why does god care what people do with their dicks? how can you describe someone so vindictive (eternal torture for disobeying him) as just and merciful, and worship him? you're willing to blindly trust a dude you've already said you can't ever understand the reasoning of? what makes you think he's benevolent other than an old book filled with intolerance, violence and contradictions?

i understand that that pride is a sin, and that all christians need to be the sheep of our lord the shepherd, and do exactly as our priests tell us to. but isn't it a little convenient for the priests? look at the power the catholic church has accumulated. its given them reasons to have wars, inquisitions, and allowed control of public opinion. religion is the perfect tool for maintaining social stability. i wouldn't mind being the sheep of god if i didn't think he was a dick, and i didn't think religions were man-made wastes of time.

[codanblad]

kkk so the book of genisis. Not SAYING THIS IS A PROVEN THEORY BUT IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY ACURATE. understand this. im not going for either side, but here it goes. ok so we are in eon 8, this is a fact now there are 7 eons before us, no what if in the bible it says "it took 7 days for god to make earth" however it also says "time does not exsist to god so it would have to be 7 of some measurement, now in the time it takes to make a planet and solar system and universe. id have to say eons would be the best period of time to measure it in agreed. so 7days and 7eons
we have this straight. Now in the bible it says he created the universe, then sun, then earth, then water, then plants, then animals, and finally humans. All appear to be in the correct order. Just stating something that i think to be eerily similar to that which is of when they made this they had but simple simple astronomy and thought that the earth still revolved around the sun. These quotes from the book of gensis seem to be eerily acurate when you lengthen the time sequence to eons. My theory being of 1 of the days, the creation of the universe taking up about 6.5 eons or so and the rest of the days taking up about .5 (approximately, not exact terms.) as i had stated before, without doing any reasearch foolishly, was that no other planet had water, this happens to be false, but what is also considered true is that none of the 1,407,087^ 10 (the number keeps going up so no number is exact) planets have life that were found. Not meaning there isnt any more life on any other planet. So... yeah thats all i really have to say. the above information was thoroughly researched by me and it was painstakingly hard. so if you dont agree id at least like a little gratitude for the research ;) Thank you for your time in reading this. now in saying this i am not proving athiesm wrong or right but there was a good chance given the ancient text that could have not used astronomy and not developed by astronomers to be very very accurate so in so im saying there is a chance there might be no god so athiests might be right but there is also a chance that there may be a god so thiests are also correct, or both could be wrong whichever you prefer, herein saying thiesim beliefs are not self defeating nor is athiesm , its kind of which side do you choose to believe in.

I hope ive at least lessened the tension between the two groups.
adios-Monkey Mak33-:D

what so because the numbers of days and eons are the same its more likely god created everything? how about the stupidity of the bible in saying it took god a number of days to create stuff? the first day he makes however many million galaxies, the next day he makes one star? i mean he must have already made our solar system then, why not chuck earth in? and as for making all life etc., all you have to do is make a single organism, skip a few billion years while natural selection does its work. god is noob if you ask me.

ricky gervais' opinion of creationism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaEj3g5GOYA i reckon its hilarious

[EndLightEnd]

Hahaha, I havent been to this forum in half a year and its still comprised of people trying to convince each other their beliefs are wrong.

The threats of hell are especially amusing, but please that wont scare anyone here.

In an attempt to find some middleground, both religion and science are simply a means to finding personal truth. And that is what life comes down to, personal truth. And heres the kicker, ITS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYBODY.

Maybe we need more classes teaching tolerance in schools.

[spidergoat]

When Religion suggests things contrary to the evidence, then it undermines it as a source of truth.

[EndLightEnd]

True.

But that raises the sticky issue of who's source of truth is better?
(Which of course no party will concede)

[spidergoat]

Many of the myths of religions are demonstrably wrong. I can't comment on how these myths might help people, but when it makes people do things like trying to teach them as scientific fact, I must object.

[stretched]

So WHY is evolution taught in school and not christianity? What's really a shame is a person actually came up with a religion, something about a spaghetti monster, if anyone has ever heard it, but it was a joke, not real. The purpose of the spaghetti monster religion was to make people understand that more than one viewpoint needs to be heard, not just one. But what's really sad is that people ACTUALLY follow this religion now even though the creator/founder doesn't! Crazy, right? But wait, who else did that? ... Darwin did, came up with some stupid theory that people actually follow now even though he admitted the idea was stupid and could not possibly be true. And it's not the fact that we are learning evolution in class that makes me mad, it makes me mad that they are teaching us evolution and NOT christianity, or any other religion for that matter (for those who believe something different). I want to know who chose this for all of us, biology and and similar classes should be an elective, not a requirement, and religious classes should be a choice as an elective as well. Because I'm sick of learning things IN SCHOOL that I don't believe in. Of course I do my own research on subjects like evolution and other religions to help my growth as a christian, but it shouldn't count as a grade.
(from: http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7233436)

He he. Damn, this here science and biology classes is not helping my education none!

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: How is atheism "self-defeating?" There's nothing to defeat except the lies of christianity and other religions that are self-defeating to humankind.

[CptBork]

He he. Damn, this here science and biology classes is not helping my education none!

I am forced to re-evaluate my most cherished beliefs after seeing this new evidence. It appears our theory of evolution has it backwards; monkeys are in fact smarter than the author of the post in your link. Perhaps we should conjure up a new subspecies of homo sapien to fit this data, so we can continue living our immoral lifestyles in defiance of those pesky Christians.

[Monkey Mak33]

quote from site: "By Marilyn Adamson

Listen to article now
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Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists."

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."9

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.10

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."11 This is God, in action.

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."12

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.

If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.

This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."13 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."

God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."14

So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way. If you need more information about Jesus' claim to divinity, or about God's existence, or if you have similar important questions, please email us.

I just asked Jesus into my life (some helpful information follows)...

I may want to ask Jesus into my life, please explain this more fully...

I have a question...

About the Author: As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend. In challenging the beliefs of her friend, Marilyn was amazed to learn the wealth of objective evidence pointing to the existence of God. After about a year of persistent questioning, she responded to God's offer to come into her life and has found faith in Him to be constantly substantiated and greatly rewarding.

(1) Romans 1:19-21
(2) Jeremiah 29:13-14
(3) R.E.D. Clark, Creation (London: Tyndale Press, 1946), p. 20
(4) The Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Institute of Science (Chicago, IL)
(5) Ibid.
(6) Ibid.
(7) Ibid.
(8) John 8:12
(9) John 14:6
(10) John 14:11
(11) Jeremiah 31:3
(12) John 3:16
(13) Revelation 3:20
(14) John 10:27-29
:mad:

[Monkey Mak33]

Also i would like to ad. That the non-existence of God cannot be proven. One cannot prove a universal negative. Alternatively, the existence of God is provable.

[Monkey Mak33]

ps how do i do the quotey thingy

[Monkey Mak33]

I demand you prove aliens don't exist.

weve examined about oh i dunno 1 billion planets would be a good guesstimate anyway well we've only been sure about one thing. that earth has life on it now the number is climbing each day and if weve found any life for certain except for ours, then wed probably be notified of it quickly through press and whatnot, however we've only got one weve found so far. can ya guess which one so im going to have to say that the odds of there being life on other planets SO FAR
would be ohh i dunno
1 : ~1billion(and growing)

another iteresting fact, nostradamus... athiest predictor, as you all know is quite famous for his predicitons being awkwardly accurate, well funny that in his lost book it says: christian church ends in 2011 and the world ends in 2012 kinda funny its not proven but hes athiest, kinda has to mean something now im just pointing out facts that i know are true for certain that HAVE happened and theres no way to prove they havent happened, so if you choose to not believe that these events that we can prove that have taken place arent true, well go ahead and dont believe that man had walked on the moon,
----referring to previous quote----

[CptBork]

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

We really don't have that many planets to compare Earth to. Only a scattered few have been detected amongst the cosmos, mostly Jupiter sized planets because of technological constraints, and even with these planets the data is extremely limited. It's perfectly arguable that had the Earth not been fit to sustain life, there could well be any number of planets out there which do support life, with inhabitants asking how they could have possibly come to be, just like us.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

This is false, plain and simple. The Earth is not a constant distance from the sun, because its orbit is not circular. The Earth and all the other planets have elliptical orbits, meaning the distances between them and the sun change all the time. Now one might argue that substantial changes to Earth's orbit could mean catastrophe, but I see no solid reason to say that the Earth needs to keep a perfect distance from the sun and that any changes to our orbit will spell instant doom.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

What would be so bad about losing the tides? What evidence is there that oceans wouldn't still circulate well enough to cleanse impurities, excluding human industrial waste?

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?

One doesn't. The brain is incredibly complicated and poorly understood. But we have some pretty solid evidence of how human brains and their animal precursors developed stage by stage through evolution.

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Where are the calculations showing that life evolving over billions of years in a giant laboratory called Earth is statistically impossible? More importantly, how are we to verify that these calculations are based on reasonable assumptions?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.

For your info, human DNA is filled with all kinds of useless junk and mistakes, much like you'd expect to see in a randomized process. On the whole, however, evolution as it is currently understood is no more lucky to have occurred than a ball is to have rolled to the bottom of a hill. There are plausible mechanisms for how life as we know it could have come into existence, and there is a great deal of evidence supporting many of these mechanisms, right down to the production of self-replicating RNA molecules in lab conditions similar to primordial Earth.

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

To state with certainty that there is a God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is no God (or no logical reason to assume the existence of one). But it's moot really as the article you quote says below- numbers alone don't matter, or Galileo would have never prevailed.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all.

Noone has ever calculated this "numerical likelihood".

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them.

Isn't it disturbing that if the personal faith of millions or billions of people is to be used as an argument for God's existence, that most of these people can't even agree on the basic essentials of their beliefs?

If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?

No, a genuine skeptic reserves judgement until they have weighed all the available evidence. There is no evidence to date that there absolutely cannot be a God, so a skeptic would never draw this conclusion.

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

So the skeptic is asked if they can really be so certain that God doesn't exist... and yet the article claims we can be certain of the fact that God indeed does exist. Doesn't sound very objective to me.

I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

Every atheist or agnostic comes to their set of beliefs by a different path and for different reasons. It would be foolish for someone to attempt to speak for all atheists even if they once considered themself to be one.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

This point isn't worth debating, I'm not here to pick and choose between religions. They're all equally presumptious as far as I'm concerned.

weve examined about oh i dunno 1 billion planets would be a good guesstimate anyway well we've only been sure about one thing. that earth has life on it now the number is climbing each day and if weve found any life for certain except for ours, then wed probably be notified of it quickly through press and whatnot, however we've only got one weve found so far. can ya guess which one so im going to have to say that the odds of there being life on other planets SO FAR
would be ohh i dunno
1 : ~1billion(and growing)

You need to seriously take some time to learn planetary science and stellar astronomy, because from this paragraph you clearly don't have a clue. Not a clue. Earth is the only planet we've explored in detail, and we've barely even scratched the surface. We've sent a few weak little robots to Mars and some of the other planets and moons in our solar system, which really ain't gonna find squat. I could explain how primitive interstellar planetary science is and how little we can actually see with our technology at the moment, but it's not worth it. I can't debate you on this stuff until you actually learn the science. When Captain Kirk beams down to a planet and starts walking around exploring it, that's not actually what NASA does.

another iteresting fact, nostradamus... athiest predictor, as you all know is quite famous for his predicitons being awkwardly accurate, well funny that in his lost book it says: christian church ends in 2011 and the world ends in 2012 kinda funny its not proven but hes athiest, kinda has to mean something now im just pointing out facts that i know are true for certain that HAVE happened and theres no way to prove they havent happened, so if you choose to not believe that these events that we can prove that have taken place arent true, well go ahead and dont believe that man had walked on the moon,
----referring to previous quote----

Nostradamus can't be said to have predicted anything until it can be unambiguously determined what the heck it even is that he actually said. Historians are still arguing over whether he was actually writing about what was happening around him in his own times, so I don't think there's a case to be made that any of his writings were secret prophecies, unless you twist the words around 'til you get what you want.

[Enmos]

:bawl:

[EndLightEnd]

weve examined about oh i dunno 1 billion planets would be a good guesstimate anyway well we've only been sure about one thing. that earth has life on it now the number is climbing each day and if weve found any life for certain except for ours, then wed probably be notified of it quickly through press and whatnot, however we've only got one weve found so far. can ya guess which one so im going to have to say that the odds of there being life on other planets SO FAR
would be ohh i dunno
1 : ~1billion(and growing)

Oh man, perfect example on how facts get filtered through religious beliefs and are altered SIGNIFICANTLY from the actual truth. (life story of the church?)

Like a previous poster has mentioned, weve only discovered about 293 extra solar planets (not billions). Furthermore we have NO IDEA of the chemical makeup of these planets and many are several hundred times larger than our own planet(gas giants). In fact the only reason the planets are detected is the gravitational wobble of the star caused by the planet, which produces a red/blue shift depending on where the planet is in orbit.

If there is a God, I would stake my soul on the bet we are NOT alone in this universe.

[spidergoat]

weve examined about oh i dunno 1 billion planets would be a good guesstimate anyway well we've only been sure about one thing. that earth has life on it now the number is climbing each day and if weve found any life for certain except for ours, then wed probably be notified of it quickly through press and whatnot, however we've only got one weve found so far. can ya guess which one so im going to have to say that the odds of there being life on other planets SO FAR
would be ohh i dunno
1 : ~1billion(and growing)

another iteresting fact, nostradamus... athiest predictor, as you all know is quite famous for his predicitons being awkwardly accurate, well funny that in his lost book it says: christian church ends in 2011 and the world ends in 2012 kinda funny its not proven but hes athiest, kinda has to mean something now im just pointing out facts that i know are true for certain that HAVE happened and theres no way to prove they havent happened, so if you choose to not believe that these events that we can prove that have taken place arent true, well go ahead and dont believe that man had walked on the moon,
----referring to previous quote----

You didn't prove aliens don't exist. Nostrildumbass made lots of predictions, many of them totally wrong, some were bound to be right, it's just math, he didn't predict anything specific.

[s0meguy]

Athiest means "no" "God". When a person says that they are an athiest, they are saying, I know that there is no God, therefore I believe one doesn't exist. BUT to have knowledge that there is no God, you would need to be all knowing. You would need to know every square inch of the universe, you would need to be able to see within people, through mountains, you would need to be all knowing and all seeing because how else would you know that God isn't hiding away somewhere off in another part of the universe, or within a person, or mountain? So in saying, I'm an Athiest, people are saying, I'm all knowing, and that means that they're God. So when someone say I'm an Atheist, they are actually saying, there is no God, I am God, both at the same time. WHAT A CONTRADICTION. No wonder most people don't have any guts and they settle for calling themselves Agnostics.

CyA

From Tim

You know, that's exactly how christianity (any religion) works, not atheism. Atheists simply recognize that there is not sufficient evidence to believe in a god.

[Cellar_Door]

A belief in God is just a shrug of the shoulders. How convenient it is to have an indescribable entity, who holds the answer to everything but can't be questioned about it. He 'moves in mysterious ways', remember?

Now 'answers' has twisted the definition of Atheism to suit their own purposes, something that no-one needs do if their argument is able to stand up on actual fact.

An Atheist is someone who quite simply, doesn't believe in any God; not someone professing to be omnipresent. Why must you Theists bring everything down to your own basic, primitive level?

[Cris]

Money Mak33,

Please don’t post long copy paste articles again. Give the web ref instead please.

Please also don’t preach or proselytize, which is what you are doing here. I am tempted to delete your post but some have already responded. However, it does serve as a useful and fundamental example of almost every logical fallacy generated by theism.

If you choose to read through this forum you would find every assertion and claim in your post has been thoroughly destroyed many times over.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.This is propaganda intended to lure the audience into thinking that all forms of evidence are the same.

The issue that non believers have is that the quality of claims of evidence for theism do not compare well with say scientific evidence. In short, theist claims lack credibility.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.More propaganda to imply that people are unable to weigh appropriate levels of evidence and make informed decisions.

1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."This claim has two main flaws. Firstly it contradicts the earlier statement that there is sufficient evidence, and secondly it is a call to choose between an emotional evaluation rather than one based on reason. I.e. one must abandon reason. It implies that one cannot have a strong heartfelt desire for a god to exist and at the same time rationally evaluate any credible evidence.

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.First major fallacy that complexity only results from design. We have no precedent that anything complex arose from anything other than simpler components. Even man made objects all arose from simpler attempts. And biological evolution indicates the same trend.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:Falsely implying there is a long list whereas in fact there are very few, and seriously flawed.

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.This is the next major and classic logical fallacy.

The implication is that the Earth was designed for man. It ignores the obvious that man is a result of the environment in which he evolved, so of course it is a perfect fit. Had the earth evolved differently then either life would be different or would not exist.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.A continuation of the same fallacy, as are all the similar examples in this sequence.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6The obvious question then is that if the planet is so dominated by the oceans and was designed for man then why doesn’t man have gills and can filter salt water naturally.

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.Same fallacy that complexity cannot result from simplicity.

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. This is basic ignorance about biological evolution. Evolution is not based on random chance but on deterministic interactions.

What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?Take a biology science class.

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.The same fallacy and ignorance that evolution is based on randomness.

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.The third major logical fallacy. This is known as argumentum ad populum – the idea that because so many people believe something then it must be true. If this is the case then we have to believe that at one time the Earth was indeed flat because at a time in the past almost everyone on the planet believed it was flat.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.You must be starting to believe your own propaganda. There appears to be an inverse relationship betweens scientific discovery and religion – as science grows then religions decline.

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?The problem there is that there is no single scrap of credible evidence that shows that any such claims are based in truth.

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.Preaching. Irrelevant.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.And how can this perspective be separated from delusion?

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.And again how can these views be separated from delusion?

The choice is that there is an incredible powerful being that exists and is capable of creating entire universes, and is invisible, immaterial, undetectable, and unobservable, all of which have no precedent or evidential support, versus a simple emotional delusion that is well understood and common place.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.Preaching again, irrelevant.

Why Jesus? The problem with the Jesus myth is that no one can show any evidence that he actually existed. What he might have said have come from the myth makers whose writing ended up forming a religion.

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."The issue here is a deep emotional implication that we can relate to a loving father seeing his son sacrificed. To us that would indeed be significant, that we lost a loved son and possibly will never see him again. But the guy was meant to be resurrected and that pretty much blows away any sympathy we might have. And he was gone for, what, 3 days (e.g. a long weekend). Now, if the Jesus character went away permanently then the story might be credible and we could relate to a god that had made a permanent sacrifice. But remember that if the Christian god is omniscient then he would know everything that was going to happen and so again he would not have suffered any anguish over apparently losing his son, who was not lost anyway.

So really the central theme of Christianity, the sacrifice etc, is pure farce.

This is your decision, no coercion here.Nope, just blatant preaching, based on a series of fallacious arguments.

So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, Facts quoted = zero.

[SnakeLord]

weve examined about oh i dunno 1 billion planets would be a good guesstimate

Bwahaha, we've barely "examined" this one.

earth has life on it now the number is climbing each day and if weve found any life for certain except for ours, then wed probably be notified of it quickly through press and whatnot

That depends, but it is certainly an interesting question to ask. If, for instance, Phoenix found signs of simple life on Mars would it actually change your world view significantly? Would very basic life be good enough to do that or would you require elephants and dinosaurs? If anything bigger than basic bacteria were found - let's say the skeletal remains of a humanoid, do you really think it would be spread to any and all through CNN? What do you honestly think the worldwide impact would be if the news came on saying that a robot on Mars had found skeletal remains of a humanoid? Such news would surely have to be witheld from the public? I don't think the majority of people are ready for such news.

[Sarkus]

quote from site: "By Marilyn Adamson

blahblahblahblah..Hasn't there already been a thread that covers most of these so-called arguments?

Oh yes, that's right - only most of the threads in the religion forum!

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Argument from complexity and personal incredulity.

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.Again, argument from complexity and personal incredulity.

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.Oh look - argument from personal incredulity (and a lack of understanding of probability, evolution (biological / chemical etc) and a whole array of other matters.

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.:rolleyes:
These people could be referred to as sheep.

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.:eek:
Can I have him subjected to a restraining order, please??

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.And Frodo destroying the One Ring is the clearest, most specific picture of the existence of Hobbits.



Drivel.
Not even funny drivel.

[Monkey Mak33]

Thats an astro physicist talking i just didnt know how to quote it ill give you the site if u want but i can asure u all that info is true now no need to be offensive, heck i didnt even write it. but i pretty much believed it and that also seems to have sparked a flare. lol guess u guys actually got angry at somethin i said

lol oh well just cant handle the truth oh and im taking my leave off of sciforums ive had enough of proving u wrong

bye bye- f0r3v3r

----Monkey Mak33---
:)

[EndLightEnd]

Im beginning to think these forums should have a mandatory IQ/competence test.

And please, send me the website. I beg you.

[spidergoat]

...

bye bye- f0r3v3r

----Monkey Mak33---
:)

Bye again.

[xvortexbladex]

"Athiest means "no" "God". When a person says that they are an athiest, they are saying, I know that there is no God, therefore I believe one doesn't exist. BUT to have knowledge that there is no God, you would need to be all knowing. You would need to know every square inch of the universe, you would need to be able to see within people, through mountains, you would need to be all knowing and all seeing because how else would you know that God isn't hiding away somewhere off in another part of the universe, or within a person, or mountain? So in saying, I'm an Athiest, people are saying, I'm all knowing, and that means that they're God. So when someone say I'm an Atheist, they are actually saying, there is no God, I am God, both at the same time. WHAT A CONTRADICTION. No wonder most people don't have any guts and they settle for calling themselves Agnostics." -original quote

The first mistake occurs when you suppose that an atheist says that he "knows there is no God". How can anyone make that assertion? How does anyone know something exists if they cannot sense it in any way? Do we not rely only on our sense 100% of our time, that's the whole point of the phrase "use you head". But the latter sentence is just redundant. If no one can really tell if there is a God or no God, then how can anyone say they know for sure? We can only say, "to the best of our knowledge" and the same goes for any theist as well. If you meet any atheist who says they are all knowing, please tell me and I'll kick them for throwing the term "atheism" around so frivolously.

And as many others have responded to this post, agnosticism is not a stance on theism, it is a stance on epistomology, the philosophy of knowing. Some believe there are evidence to support God's existence, others find evidence to support that there is no God, then there are those who do not think there is enough evidence to support either claim.

[spidergoat]

Religion makes suppositions that can be tested. Few atheists really say they can be 100% certain there is no God, that's bad science. They do say that the God as described in most religions has no supporting evidence, and is therefore an irrational belief. Rejecting scientific theories requires the same level of certainty.

[xvortexbladex]

Religion makes suppositions that can be tested. Few atheists really say they can be 100% certain there is no God, that's bad science. They do say that the God as described in most religions has no supporting evidence, and is therefore an irrational belief. Rejecting scientific theories requires the same level of certainty.

Yes, religion can make suppositions that can be tested, but can it be confirmed? So far, there is none if not few of any claims being confirmed despite many tests. What scientific theories? That the earth is placed on pillars? That Jesus could see all four corners of the kingdoms? That the sun is a circle? That in Genesis, Earth and the plants are created before the stars to pull together debris or facilitate photosynthesis? That you can move mountains if you believe just enough? If you pray, and it is the will of some cosmic being, then it will come true? That there is an actual place where people are currently being roasted alive for their sins? That men really have 1 rib less than women? I can go on and on about claims by theists, even ones that is supposed to be about atomic weaponry and flight, but can any of them be substantiated through testing? I'd really like to see that.

Course not all atheist can say that God does not exist definitively, but neither could all theists say that there is one definitively. And not being able to say that there is 100% certainty for the nonexistence of something supernatural, does that constitute as bad science? Sounds like a good argument, but that's a non-sequitur. Science is meant to define the natural world, the supernatural is well...not natural, do you not see the incompatibility? That is why the subject of religion is often left for the philosophers and hence we have subjects like ontology. Otherwise, we have some rather questionable fields that falls under the category of pseudoscience due to unconvincing results after multiple tests.

[spidergoat]

Science has no boundries as to subject matter. A supernatural effect must be observable in the natural world, or not even religious people would claim that it happens. If there is any effect on the material world at all, then it can be subject to scientific scrutiny. If a supernatural effect could be shown to exist, this effect would be incorporated into science. Science does not specifically reject the supernatural, it only has so far because there has been no evidence for it.

[Linda7777]

We've been through this one. Agnosticism is not a stance regarding religion. You've got it wrong as I did when I came here. Look up the word "epistemology". Agnosticism is a stance regarding epistemology, NOT religion. Aitheism doesn't mean you "know" there is no god, it merely means you find no evidence supporting that there is.

Oh, and it's silly to say that you'd have to be "all knowing" to KNOW there isn't a god. You'd just have to know there isn't a god. Maybe there is a trick to knowing that which you're not aware of eh?

If you are really interested in the topic, look up a thread by ConsequentAithiest called "consistent or delimited agnosticism". It should shed some light on the scenario for you. ;)

I could never believe or think that for no apparent reason something came out of nothing.

God created all things for his own glory and purpose.
Atheists claim they see no proof, but the Bible teaches that atheists are appointed to be atheists, they really have no choice in the matter.
Don't attack me on this; Not me, but the Bible says God made everything for his own purpose including atheists.

[spidergoat]

Einstein showed that space is curved, so even nothing isn't nothing. Quantum particles appear and disappear for no apparent reason, and show properties that would seem strange if they happened in the macro world.

The phrase "God made everything...including atheists", is a kind of logical fallacy. It really says nothing about the atheist proposition. It just means religious people anticipated the questions people would have about atheism and pretended to be omniscient.

[devils-advocate]

I have one question....
Why do people believe in ONE book? Why? It is so contradictory.
I can't grasp how people can be that gullible.
There are hundreds and possibly thousands of books that speak about evolution and science and how the world works. There have been independent free thinkers such as Einstein that have been slammed for saying something [and being able to back it up with solid evidence] and speaking out against the word of 'god' [referring to the 'christian' god].
I can't unuderstand you complete fools.

On another note I would be interested if someone would be so kind to inform me as to why christians seem to be completely against insest [well it is morally wrong...] but why then do they believe so heavily in the concept of Adam and Eve?



-"Don't take life so seriously, it isn't permanent"

[devils-advocate]

Isn't just religion proof positive that chinese whispers works on a global scale?

[Hapsburg]

First off crapface, the prefix "a-" means without, not, or opposed to. Theism is the belief in the existence of god or gods. The label atheist does not say that one knows that there is no god, but an atheist rather rejects the idea of a god?
And often, it's not even that. Probably 70% of the time, if someone says they're an atheist, they simply lack belief in a deity rather than a belief that there is no deity.
Hence the necessary dichotomy between strong and weak atheism. It's not "just" semantics; it's needed to express the incredible difference between those mentalities.

[Cris]

Xvortex,

"Athiest means "no" "God". When a person says that they are an athiest, they are saying, I know that there is no God, therefore I believe one doesn't exist. BUT to have knowledge that there is no God, you would need to be all knowing………………………Well not really, in practice atheists are much more pragmatic, but, check out this thread that you can find in this forum’s FAQs…re definition of atheism.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=26679

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

What's "Athieism"? Never heard of that. But going after the OP's description of it...it certainly does sound like a made up belief.:rolleyes:

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

-=-

WHY was this absurdity resurrected?