View Full Version : Prophecy-Future-Whats gonna happen?
I am not sure if this is the place for it, but it is as close as i could get to it.
I am cross-reading this board pretty often, and still i couldn find this.
There is a lot of prophecy stuff, and what might happen in the future(taken from the boards) , alien invation, one world government, Christs return,Y2K, strange weather patterns and all the rest of it..
What do YOU think will happen in the near future?
So regardless if you are a christian or not, or whatever you consider yourself to be, What is your take on it? Will life go on as normal, or is there something coming our way.
Now.. lets hear it ;)
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Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English :)
[This message has been edited by H-kon (edited June 25, 1999).]
Richilin
06-24-99, 01:40 PM
Hi!
I belive that life will go on like normal for a while. I belive in the bible, and according to the bible there will soon come an end to this horrible world. But you dont know if its gonna come before 2015, or after. The bible doesnt give an exact date.
Well now... Whats gonna happen?
There will be a war, a great one, but not between people, and its not an unfair war. Its a war who will justify God, and where heŽs gonna put an end to all pain, all crying, and all unjustice. And after that, there will be like it was ment to bee from the beginning, a paradis with happy people.
Its very hard to belive today, but if you read the whole bible and understand what it was ment to be like, and why everything went wrong, then youŽll see that it will happen.
And may it be soon!
The Seer
06-24-99, 02:07 PM
The final end is. The hand of every man will be against the other. It is not world war 3, or atomic bombs, or the new world order, or one world government. The end times begin when the populations understand and realize that it's all been a lie starting about 5500 BC by a man named Nimrod, the founder of Babylon. {Babylon the Great is civilization itself) Babylon is the cradle of civilization where-from all this began. The end times begin "after" the public puts away civilization and relate to one another under the original terms of Adam in the begining. At the time of Adam civilization was not, as Adam is not a civilized personage as he was before Nimrod. After the people desolve civil authority they will also know and understand to live in peace. The peacetime will proceed for a number of years (unspecified)and then the populations will want to return to the former. But without civil authority (which was rejected) they will exceed beyond all known evil as never before. When that time arrives there will be no control or any means to stop them. The only survivers will be the ones (very few) that refused all participation in the events and remained seperated off in hidden places they find to await the passage of those events as all at that time will see the things of destrution comming, even those who perish. They will know that their kind of wanted world is an impossibility and would rather be dead then live according to Adam. No people have ever gone to war against others as war has always been initiated by leaders, and leadership over others is the first precept of war and strife.
Huh? Ok, here's my 2 cents. This topic is my "thang", you know, as it is why I began hanging around in this forum to begin with. Not that I've really been able to figure out jack shit, but I'm keeping an open eye on things. I think that aliens have something to do with end-times events. What, I'm not sure. But anyway...if I had to come up with a probable scenario, it would be this...
I think that Y2K will not be as devastating as many extremists think. It's not like the whole world will just come to an end on 1/1/00, but I do think that it will do some pretty major damage. Kind of like a snow-balling effect. The US is pretty prepared, but we forget that other countries that we have significant ties to globally are not. When I think about it, the effects of Y2K are really very dependent upon how far we've removed ourselves from God, and relied upon our own selves for sustanance. For most, it will be a minor inconvenience at first, but the effects of it will be great. In respect to the amount of money that it will take to correct problems, and the global capacity of it. I think that it will really drain a lot of resources that are scarce at the moment anyway. I think that it will cause the stock market to go cluppooy. I also think that the fear that is mounting in regards to it will not help either. People's reactions to it, or preparations for it will probably cause a lot of damage. Panic, I mean, is never proactive but destructive. It seems that a lot of "forces" may be just hanging around in waiting for this event to spring them into action and take ultimate advantage of it. I think that the Antichrist, and the aliens (that's why I think they are related topics) are hanging around and waiting for things to get bad enough for us to NEED them. And I think that we will seem to need something, but not them. That is the deception. False saviours. I think that the weather and global earth changes will also add to this need. Things are getting kind of strange, kind of destructive, and let's face it, it's happened before, and we would be pretty stupid to assume that it won't happen again. The Flood, the dinosaurs, Altantis? I get the impression that the outcome always depends on how much confidence we put in our own creations, and our own paper-mache systems. We do not realize how stupid and fallable we all are without God, and He never fails to show us that eventually. I think that we are coming upon a time such as this. So, anyway, I think that once we are all in a state of despair and panic, the false saviour will step up to the plate with plenty of deceptive evidence and plans to make everything nice-nice again. He will have many great ideas. Ones that we could have come up with on our own a long time ago, if we were all not so busy feeding our egos with the almighty dollar. BUT, and this is a big ol' but, he will eventually DEMAND worship for this things, and for his "power". He will claim that he is the true saviour, and will force those who want to keep their lives to denounce the true Christ. This is the mark of the beast. You know, I also believe in the rapture of the Church, and as I'm not sure when this will happen exactly, I do think that the aliens will have something to do with the "cover up", and that it will add to the worship of the Antichrist in some way. Maybe that will even be more impactive than earth changes or Y2K or anything else. After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will leave the earth with the Church, and things will get nasty, nasty. There will be those who give their lives for Christ during this time (of the Beast). And these are the true heros, for they will have to endure terrible things, but they will know that it is ultimately nothing in comparison to what lies in waiting for God's wrath. Jesus will return with his Church and defeat the Antichrist in the Battle of Armeggedon. I can't get a good picture on the logistics of this situation, as I am not well-educated on foreign affairs, and it seems that changes are taking place so quickly oversees, that I have a hard time keeping up, and trying to see the outcome. Then, the millenium. A 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. I can't wait. To be able to finally get my head out of my ass, and be able to live as I was meant to. For ignorance, to me anyway, is not bliss, it is frustrating!
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God loves you and so do I!
Well. it sure looks like that most people believe that something is coming our way, we just have no clue what it is, or when it is coming.
I want to add a few things though. The rumoured polar shift, where the north pole ends up on top of India, and the South Pole ending up in the middle of Brazil, and West-Sahara. Could this happen? How about a solar storm really making things difficult?
Your guess is as good as mine, but it would be great to hear all of your opinions on this.
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Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English :\
Here we go again.
Reality check: aside from evolution of our civilization, absolutely nothing extraordinary is happening! The world, and especially the solar system, is precisely in the state it has always been (within reasonable time limits, of course). The changes are our pollution of environment and global 'terraforming' activities. That's really all there is.
A killer solar flare, a mile-wide asteroid impact, or a pole shift, is no more likely now than it was 2,000 years ago. There's nothing special about year 2,000 other than the software bug. There will be little special in the next century other than our continued expansion and increasing sophistication.
Oh, but I suppose I won't convince anybody. Doomsayers have always been around, and always will be. Though this does raise a question: aren't our modern lives on average just as boring as lives have always been?
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I am; therefore I think.
The Seer
06-26-99, 01:36 AM
That's affirmative.
The Seer
06-26-99, 01:44 AM
By "affirmative" I mean I agree. Everything is normal and will be for a some time yet. And as you say, there's nothing unusual in these times and seasons. The
armageddon/end time thing, has been going on for over 2000 years, and it's even in the old testament. Oh hum, yawn, it's going to be a while.
My question to you is this...What were people doing (besides Noah) in the days before the Flood?
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God loves you and so do I!
dumaurier
06-27-99, 04:36 AM
The way i see the future is as follows:
1. Mankind will have invented a totally new language which will be taught in every school of every country on this planet. All people will continue using thier natural native languages in their own nation but they will learn this auxiliary universal language to communicate with other people worldwide;
2. Likewise, a new script will be invented and taught worldwide;
3. A universal monetary unit will come into being and trade will become fair and just, unhindered by the discrepancy of the value of any national currency;
4. A Supreme Tribunal will come into existence of which all governments will be supporting members. The purpose of this Tribunal will be to eliminate injustice committed by one nation over another. Thus, wars will be completely eliminated because no country will be able to face the powerful retributive punishment from a conglomerate unity; that is to say that if a nation took up arms against another, all nations of the earth would come together to crush it!
5. National borders will disappear;
6. Women and men will be considered as having equal rights in almost all matters;
7. The earth will finally be considered one country and all peoples its citizens.
8. Tons of prejudices will disappear from the face of the earth;
Whether you believe it or not, humanity is headed in this direction and there are signs everywhere of the fulfillment of the 8 points raised above. Man today has the liberal choice of reaching the fulfillment of these 8 points either willingly, or by the force of life circumstances which will impose upon him the accomplishment of all these things mentioned.
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dumaurier
dumaurier:
1) esperanto. (check!)
2) likewise (check!)
3) the dollar. (check!)
As for the others, I think it will be a looong time before those come about (especially in Africa). But I'd say we are on the right path :)
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I am; therefore I think.
Yah, this would be a good direction, but one thing we must get rid of in time is the capitalism, because it generally works on greed; everyone wants more money and matter. Because every rich country wants to stay rich, they wont help the developing countries enough that they could become equal. It seems though that even if we do invent a better system, people wont be ready for it in a long time. For example communism would perhaps be a better solution, but as I said, people are still too unprepared and greedy and stuff. Hope things will turn out better though.
dumaurier
06-27-99, 09:35 PM
Ilkka:
"Capitalism" is the root of many ills. Consider, however, that we require some form of money as a means of exchange between people. Money, in itself, is not poison nor bad. It is the moral values that a person cherishes which make his use of money either good or bad. Within a world operating with the framework of the 8 points which i previously posted, i believe capitalism, communism, and even "democracy" don't stand a chance; they simply will be replaced by a form of world government which will mix the positive benefits of kingship and a republic form of government (something like what we have today in the USA, Canada and England). Keeping this in mind, "capitalism" per se will disappear.
In connection to capitalism, again, you state that it works on greed. Of course, i understand that this is a generalization. Greed is, indeed, an offshoot of capitalism, but more so of a decadent morality. But if our government became more just, i believe greed would be checked with taxation. In Canada this seems to be the case. More and more people do not wish to amass wealth because the more one has the more he must give to the government and in the end all the accumulation of wealth simply returns to the government through taxation again!
In Canada some people complain that they are overtaxed without realizing that it is thanks to such taxation that we don't suffer from the many social cruelties existing in such countries as Brazil, for example, where there is no Unemployment Insurance, Social Welfare, etc. Thus, money is necessary as a means of exchange between peoples and if it is used in a bad way it is due to a person's lack of sound morality.
In my view of a united world, there will no longer be any extremes of either wealth or poverty. The existence of the extremes of these conditions will have been eliminated forever! In fact, i am of the opinion that the extremes of many things will be eliminated; extreme ignorance (as is the case with societies that operate based on traditional teachings) versus extreme education (developed countries), for example.
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dumaurier
From what I heard on the news, the 7th July 1999, will be the beggining of the end, the start of the 27 year war that will be followed by an era of unpresedented peace for all of man kind.I fyou think I made this up cheak out books about the profocies of Nostradamus, just remember that this guy predicted WW1, WW2, Vietnam and Korea.
Raebeth
07-07-99, 09:53 AM
I'm still here! I hope you're all okay. I think we might have got away with it. I had the forsight to pretend to be out all day in case armageddon came calling. Is anyone else out there or am I alone, forever to walk the burnt earth in search of other survivors.
Or did we get the date wrong.
Again.
What I really fear will happen down the road is that some religious freek will become President and be in the position to push the 'Button' to attack and put us into a Necular War.
The belief doesn't have to have any truth to it, all that is needed is someone to believe
it and act on that belief and damage is done.
If you believe we are doomed anyway, why not just go ahead and get it over ?
Can't happen ???? Hope so
Well. My computer says 4th of January 1990, but thats because the CMOS battery died a long time ago.. I am still here though.
Well Hoping to keep this thread alive by asking you this.
While many agree, and many dont.with this topic, what do you feel about all the "propaganda" thats out there?
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"All i say is keep looking".
SJB:
About Nostradamus.. I do believe in many of the things that he has foretold, but the problem is that no one has been able to recognize the prophecies before the events have happened. Everything has been discovered AFTER the events. I dont know if you reffered to him now with that 7th July prediction.
When i am on the subject here.. I guess many of you have read this quatrain:
"The year 1999 seven month,,
From the sky will come a great King of terror:
To bring back to life the great King of Angolmois,
Before after Mars to reign by good luck"
It might have been this one that you were reffering too. I am no master in French, but the word "seven" is "sept" in French. Or September which once was the 7th month before Julius Ceasar messed it up.
What do you feel about this prediction.. if anything?
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"All i say is keep looking".
[This message has been edited by H-kon (edited July 16, 1999).]
hi,
The best type of government to come will be Sectional Democracy. Basically it is a mix of capitalism and socialism.
2000 is going to be nice, but watch out for june 2001
Yours zygos
Democracy is a definition that no longer exist. The greeks proved this by demonstrating that democracy do not function with a population over 4000 people. Olgyarchy is the way every "democratic" government functions today. .
I am thinking about May 5th 2001..
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"All i say is keep looking".
My two cents:
You know you don't have to have to much intellect to see that humanity is on
the road to destruction." The former Soviet Union" so called is still building their war
machines and they are preparing for war and have been for years. The United States
has been disarming plus using all their cruise missiles overseas. China has stolen or
bought US technologies in computers and missiles. China has the neutron bomb and has tested it. And they have long range missiles now to reach out and touch somebody.
Middle East is a powder cache
waiting to go off.
They talk peace but they plan war.
Weather patterns have changed, earthquakes, floods, tornados,ec ec.
NATO---peace keepers? or one world government?
UN---peace keepers? or one world government?
World Council Of Churches---One World Church
One World Bank.
One World Man to lead this New World Order, be here soon.
R member the tower of Babel in Gen:11; also read Matt:24 on the signs
of the times and Revelation Ch:13 and Ch:16
Bruce
Bruce:
So, what's it going to be? One World Government, or One World Destruction? (Somehow, I can't envision One World Government directing destruction against itself.)
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I am; therefore I think.
Boirs:
Yes Boirs I understand what you're saying. What I wrote was kind of a crude description
on this subject. I don't have a way with words like some people have, you know what I'm saying, but I will try to explain myself a little better.
You wrote:
So, what's it going to be? One World Government, or One World Destruction? (Somehow, I can't envision One World Government directing destruction against itself.)
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I am; therefore I think.
Well, "One World Government", or New World Order what ever you want to call it,
is on the rise and believe it will take over soon,this is in the process now.
No The One Word Government will not direct destruction on itself, but the out come of it will be destruction because all this leading to Armageddon and the end of this age as we know it.Now I don't have all the answers and never will but The One World Government is a fact that will take place,and so will Armageddon. There is a lot more factors involved in this that I don't want to get in to.
Bruce
Does anyone (Boris) think it would be incredibly ironic if the one world government and church that is told of in the Bible comes to pass? At least then you won't be able to deny the obvious anymore. How about when the rapture occurs? A mass disappearance of good-hearted people. They'll cover it up with some type of "alien abduction/rescue tale". Don't you believe them! We're really with Jesus. And then you won't be able to deny it any longer. But then again, you do choose to ignore every other logical deduction or piece of evidence that supports Christ. When you see the shit going down in your face, you'll remember things I've said, and you'll change your mind.
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God loves you and so do I!
Actually, I think they'll cover it up as a population control measure. ;)
Hmm. But how ironic would it be if the World Government forms, but no rapture happens? I think life is a lot less ominous than some people are inclined to believe...
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I am; therefore I think.
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 29, 1999).]
I am back! Sorry people. I have been extremely busy lately so i haven't had time to post for a while. I am gonna read all that i can, and post comments to those who have addressed me.
Boris: I owe you a post ( in a different forum tho) I will try to make it later tonight, or tomorrow.
Take care guys!
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"We didn't inherit this world from our parents, we are borrowing it from our children".
Hey H-Kon !!! I am back too... I've been
gone so long I do not even know where to
begin with all this reading...but I still
stand firm in what I was before! No proof..
means??????????? LOL
He he he.. welcome back Flash..I am looking forward to see you posting again :D. Now where is that thread....
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"We didn't inherit this world from our parents, we are borrowing it from our children".
While we are at it, let's consider the significance of anniversaries.
We humans are all too used to the passage of days, seasons, and years. Yet, what do any of such events mean on the larger scale? They are all generated by the peculiarities of orbit of just one little planet around a particular (and rather unremarkable) star in the midst of no-man's land on the outskirts of a typical galaxy. Newsflash people: our anniversaries mean absolutely nothing to the cosmos.
And if that wasn't bad enough, consider the fact that the many 'golden' dates we give such special significance to are only so special because of our preferred decimal number system, and rather questionable choice of mathematical origin. If we had 6 fingers on each hand instead of 5, we would probably be using a 12-based numbering system, and the year '2000' would be the year 11A8 A.D. And by the way, notice that 2000 is only a round number when one starts counting at the supposed birth of Christ.
So all this millenial hysteria really bewilders me -- it should be quite obvious to anyone that there is absolutely nothing special about the base-10 Christ-determined sequence number of the coming solar orbital cycle of planet Earth.
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I am; therefore I think.
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited August 13, 1999).]
MrCynic
08-13-99, 01:40 AM
Boris, finally a measure of sanity to all these very depressing descriptions of the end of the world. I find that when I point out that many people keep time in many different ways, the Christ-centric folk tend to get a little befuddled. But...wouldn't it be absoulutely hilarious if the end of the world did occur on some anniversary deemed important by Hinduism, the Native Americans or some off-shoot group no one's ever paid attention to? As a Christian myself, I'd be quite a bit put out. http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif
Matt D Skeptic
08-14-99, 05:05 PM
The world ended last month. Nostradamus predicted it would remember?
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You know it to be so
Hey now, let's not diss Nostradamus so soon. What if he meant September like H-Kon said. Maybe his psychic powers were off by a month or two.
Ok, Boris, I hate to say it, but I have to agree with you on this one in a way. No one can predict the time of the end. It says that right in the Bible. So here we go with the details again, right? Who really cares WHEN it will be? What's important is to realize that it WILL be. I know all about the mathematics and the calenders, and no, I don't think that 2000 is some "chosen" date. If Y2K weren't an issue, then the year 2000 would not be brought up at all in relation to end times events. Something major has to happen to ever usher in such a thing as a new world order, and the fact that the systems and people are in place and in waiting at this very moment disturbs me, doesn't it you? The effects of Y2K should help to push the program. And you know what? Maybe it won't. Maybe it will come and go, and there will be no detrimental effects, no big deal, and everythings normal. It just all seems so ironic to me. A little too ironic, don't ya think? Won't be long now, huh? Tick-tock, tick-tock. And besides, it will still come sometime and someway. I just wonder how f'd up the world can possibly get?????? :)
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God loves you and so do I!
Amen, and not.
As I don't believe in God or in anything paranormal or having to do with timetravel, I give no validity to any 'prediction' other than the ones stemming from scientific theories and based on measured initial conditions and at least semi-isolated physical systems.
As for how f'd up the world gets, I beg to differ. I think the world is actually getting better, if not at the same rate for every one of its human inhabitants. There is no question that the most powerful people 'in control' have always been, and probably will always be, the lowliest of lowlifes in their majority. However, as the world gets bigger and more intertwined, it will be increasingly difficult for any one freak or organization to significantly damage it. I honestly do see an advanced civilization emerging out of the present mess, spanning the entire solar system and reaching for the stars, and eventually (perhaps millions of years hence) becoming good and wise. I see that dream come closer to reality with every passing year.
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I am; therefore I think.
Matt D Skeptic
08-17-99, 06:11 AM
Just a quickie;
If the world is to end, would not other religions and ancient belief systems across the world point to common date? -if not give a vague idea?
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You know it to be so
Euh Boris,
You do realise that this optimistical belief in the future is kind of the same thing that religious people believe to be the ultimate reward in heaven, nirvana or whatever they call it.
Just to let you know that sometimes you're getting pretty spiritual sort of speak... ;)
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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato
Matt,
I'm not sure about other major world religions, but there do exist other end times prophecies that parallel those in the Bible. Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, Fatima, Hopi Indian prophecy, New Age prophecy, and last but not least, alien prophecy! Yes, it seems that those who have been "contacted" have been told of cataclysmic earth changes. See I AM America (Tory something), and Zetatalk for examples of what I'm talking about.
Also everyone,
Did you watch the news last night? Almost the entire nightly news with Tom Brokaw was about natural disasters. The earthquake in Istanbul of course, and then straight into a segment regarding the forecasted intensity of this year's hurrican season in the tropics. I forget exactly what the percentage is, but the majority of devastating natural disasters of this century, have occurred in the last decade. You know, exactly like the Bible said they would. Hold on to your hats and say your prayers people; it's gonna be a wild ride!
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God loves you and so do I!
Matt D Skeptic
08-18-99, 03:44 PM
That must surely mean the end of the world what with the year 2000 around the corner....
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You know it to be so
Just to hop in here and continue the thread that Lori started.. All these prophecies are not dated to January 1st 2000 and that everything is gonna end then..
The Hopi's haven't set a date, just timelines for when it's gonna happen.. Like the birth of a white buffalo would tell them that the happenings are not too far off.
The Mayan's Sun calendar tells us December 23rd 2012 as the end of the world as we know it ( whatever that means)
Christian religions are almost agree on that May 5th 2003 is the day of armageddon.
The Aztecs tells us the "dawn of the new age" starts the 13th of August 1999, *the 5th time*
Astrology tells us that we will enter the age of Aquarius in 2012
Nostradamus tells us that the "End of Earth" is the year 3797 ( when life seize to exist on Earth)
But he also forcasts alot of other things that we really do not have a clue about.. The "Problem" with Nostradamus predictions, is that no one knows what his predictions meant until the event happens.. then it becomes clear.. Right now, there are just as many theories, and speculations about it so that we have no idea..
I am no bible reader, but i think it tells us that No one would know the day of Armageddon.
Lots of things really.. All have almost different dates, and happenings.. But reading it tells me that something MIGHT coming our way...
Something that i am nervous about is the conflict between China and Taiwan.. That could escalate into someting bigger...
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"We didn't inherit this world from our parents, we are borrowing it from our children".
Odysseus
08-20-99, 09:36 PM
Some thoughts, some perhaps not too revolutionary:
1. By mid-21st century, human immortality, or at least normal life spans counted in centuries will be a practical possibility. This will lead to grave social disorders---wars, revolutions, and other social disasters beyond the scope of anything seen in history, as the poor have-nots rebel against the rule of the fabulously wealthy who will seek to keep immortality to themselves.
2. By or even before the dawn of the 22nd century a way to circumvent Einstein's seemingly ultimate speed limit---186,000 miles/second---will be found, and colonization of the solar system and planets around the nearer stars will commence.
3. By 2050, it will be possible to buy clones of famous personalities with the sex centers of the brain and the functions that promote docility and receptiveness to being controlled genetically enhanced and the higher thought functions suppressed, as living "love dolls."
4. By 2100, we will have contacted ET...and ET will NOT be friendly. A prolonged struggle between the two species will commence, each vying for habitable planets and for the sheer hellish drive for dominance.
5. By the mid 22nd century, there will be entire nation-states on Earth and elsewhere of single sexes, many of them truly neo-Amazon societies.
6. By the end of the first century of the new millennium, due to individual immortality being available to virtually everyone, the birth of a human child will be an event commanding universal attention as news.
7. Sometime in the 22nd century, Earth will be a vast "park" upon which hundred and thousands of species now extinct will be re-created, living in a sort of planet-wide "zoo."
Responses?
Responses? I have no idea what to say to that, except please don't burst my bubble, I really don't want the earth to progress in the manner of which you speak. Today, right now is so hideous to me, I just can't handle the thought of having to deal with this Godlessness any longer. It sucks. I guess the reason that what you wrote is so depressing to me, is that I can totally see it happening. That's a very reasonable forecast of events, IF Christ does not return before then. Let's keep our fingers crossed, shall we? I don't ever want to have to lay eyes on a "love doll". Pamela Anderson's bad enough.
I also wanted to say that good ol' Tom, on NBC Nightly News was talking again last night about the earthquake in Turkey. Forecasted total body count is up to 35,000. Now they are very worried about outbreaks of communicable disease due to the living conditions of survivors. This piece led into a segment regarding the increased occurrance, and resulting deaths, from antibiotic-resistant strains of staph bacteria. I don't know if I've ever recalled seeing doctor's look that scared. They said that these strains will send us straight back to the early 20th century as far as treatments of communicable diseases are concerned.
It just keeps getting better, and better!
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God loves you and so do I!
Searcher
10-12-99, 01:24 AM
Lori,
How about when the rapture occurs? A mass disappearance of good-hearted people.
I'm not so sure good-heartedness is necessarily going to be the dominant quality in the individuals claimed during the rapture. A most intriguing passage is Luke 17:34-36, which describes the day the Son of man returns:
"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
What do you make of that? Will we all be homosexual at the time of the rapture? Or will homosexuals be the only ones taken? At any rate, from what I can figure out there will be 288,000 homosexuals left in the world at the time of the rapture, of which 50% of them, or 144,000 will be taken; of the ones taken, 2/3 (96,000) will be men and 1/3 (48,000) will be women. We already have covered in another thread the fact that the ones which shall be accounted worthy to obtain the next world and the resurrection from the dead, will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Given the circumstances at the time, I guess that won't be a problem!
If my take on this is correct, it doesn't seem like we will have to worry about it for quite some time. 90% of the population is still wonderfully heterosexual.
truestory
10-12-99, 02:20 AM
If one reads Matthew, Mark, Luke and John...
The message here is to be diligent, vigilant and watchful because the day and hour of the end are unknown.
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 11, 1999).]
plain_insane
10-12-99, 11:31 AM
I may be late, but I just had to drop in.
I have a question for dumaurier. You mentioned on the first page of this thread what you thought would happen. Have you ever read the book of Revelation? If you have not, I suggest it. Humanity is heading toward those 8 points you made but not peace.
Before the end, there will be a false sense of peace when all of these things start to occurr, but I don't think even aside from biblical prophecy that this is possible.
I think it was said best, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Where is Humanity going in the future?
You have 2 choices Heaven or Hell. I prefer the former. Trust in Jesus because enternity is a long time to pay for stubborn pride.
Yours in Christ,
Plain_insane for the Lord!
********************************************
John 14:6
Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me.
Searcher,
What the? It doesn't have anything to do with good-heartedness (whatever that is). Also, that interpretation about homosexuality has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It doesn't say that two men will be in bed together "getting it on" and one will be taken. Are you really that weird, or was that supposed to be a joke?
Wow, wait, I just couldn't leave that one alone. What exactly do you mean by "wonderfully heterosexual"? Are you implying that homosexuals aren't good hearted people?????? You're totally loopy, dude. Get a clue would you please?
ATTENTION ALL USERS:
See why I don't go to church, tiassa? I don't want to hear about the "evil homosexuals", and all of the other "head up our ass Christian" rhetoric that is so vehemently spewed on a regular basis. This searcher dude sounds like the same egofied, holier than thou type who doesn't get the message at all. You know, the same type that I have spent countless hours out here trying to counteract. Please don't listen to this bullshit, it's not Christianity. Hey searcher, did you know that premarital sex is just as much of a sin as homosexual sex? Did you know that lying to your mommy is just as much of a sin as homosexual sex? And so on, and so on....so if you trying to say that homosexuals aren't good hearted because they sin, then I guess you would have to consider NO ONE good hearted, because guess what? WE'RE ALL SINNERS!!!!!!! DUH, WITH A CAPITAL D!
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God loves you and so do I!
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited October 12, 1999).]
plain_insane
10-12-99, 02:57 PM
Lori,
What is wrong? I am being sincere and as nice as possible when I say this. You seem to have quite a bit of rage built up. I will agree with you. We are all sinners. I sin quite regularly. Yet when we become a Christian, we are called to leave behind old things for we are "new creatures."
I know some homosexuals who are very nice, yet the fact that they think homosexuality is acceptable is wrong. They do deserve just as much respect as any other human, but I can neither support nor respect their decision.
Unfortunately, we also seem to disagree on the tone of a Christian. We are called to love everyone, and do everything possible to get them into the kingdom. I was under the impression that you attracted a lot more flies with honey than with venom. That, however, is just my humble opinion.
We are called to be brave and bold in this battle, but we are also called to be more loving, more caring, and kinder than anyone else on the face of this earth.
I hope some of this makes sense. I totally agree with your opinions, but is there not some better way in which to state them?
Yours in Christ,
Plain_insane for the Lord!
*********************************************
Jesus said in John 15:12:
Love each other as I have loved you. This is what I'm commanding you to do.
I understand what you're saying, and yes, we are supposed to at least try to recognize and implement God's word. It may be easier for you to understand my stance, anger, frustration, vocabulary if you had any idea of how much time I have had to spend and continue to spend trying to undo all of the damage that "holier than thou", judgmental, egotistical, "I'm better than you", "you're a sinner, and you're going to hell" Christians have done. Many times I think that organized religion has done more to turn people away from Jesus, than it has brought to Jesus. I know that from personal experience. I'm just saying, don't put yourself above anyone else, for you are no better. We are all wretched in the eyes of the Lord, none more, none less. Deal with it.
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God loves you and so do I!
plain_insane
10-12-99, 06:16 PM
Maybe, I'm wrong, but never in the New Testament do I hear any of the apostles ever say we are wretched. My life is wretched, and in my own strength any thing I do wretched before the eyes of the Lord, but once we become Christians we are justified made pure in the Spirit of the Lamb. That does not mean we sin any less, and sorry that is Christian jargon. Are verdict is changed, we are found innocent because when God looks at us, He sees His Son or at least that is what I pray He sees. Yes I am more of a sinner than anyone on this board, but if we are still wretched to God once we are forgiven then why does He even let into heaven? I don't understand. Yes, the holier than thou attitude is wrong, and horrible, but you seem to be on the other extereme. I do not believe I am better than anyone on this earth; however, I do not in the least believe I am wretched in the eyes of the Lord. I have the Holy Spirit in me, and anyone who does is innocent, free from sin, a saint, and righteous. "None is righteous no not one." "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." and "The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (If you think that we are still wretched after we are saved, read Romans 3:27-31.) He makes us righteous. No more than anyone else, but righteous enough to realize the need to tell others about him, and the urgency of that message.
Yours in Christ,
Plain_insane
[This message has been edited by plain_insane (edited October 12, 1999).]
Ok, I understand, and you're right about forgiveness and salvation, which is the only thing that sets us apart. I just wanted to make sure that you weren't saying that homos are not good-hearted, or that all Christians are, because that's not what I meant. What I mean by wretched is our propensity to sin, which as you have said still exists, whether you are saved or not. It's still a struggle, being tempted by the flesh. It's a much easier fight though, when you are aware of what you're dealing with and have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Amen to that.
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God loves you and so do I!
PercyPea
10-12-99, 06:57 PM
But God loves us all just the same, even boris :)
so that doesnt mean anyone is better than anyone else
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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!
Searcher
10-13-99, 12:11 AM
Lori,
Dude - I knew I could count on you for this evening's entertainment!
First of all, I never said homosexuals couldn't be good-hearted. I said good-heartedness doesn't seem to be the main criteria according to the scriptures I quoted above. And sorry, but I do prefer a world that is 90% heterosexual to the one that seems to be described in that passage. What's wrong with that?
Secondly, what else would two men be doing in one bed? And I also thought "grinding together" was an interesting choice of words. Hey, I didn't write the stuff - I just read it!
I really think you should try to pull yourself together on that "evil homosexual" stuff - you seem to be totally obsessed, dude! I'm well aware that the bible says all sin is equal in the eyes of God. You're the one who's blowing this thing way out of proportion to what I actually said, especially since I never even mentioned anything about homosexuality being a sin! I just said that the scriptures seem to hint at a very different social structure during the time of the rapture than the one we currently enjoy - my point being, in case you missed it (and you apparently did - no surprise there), that the rapture would seem to be a long way off.
By the way, take your Prozac, honey.
Wow! Quite a flurry of ... well, quite a flurry here in the last little bit.
Lori ... did you figure I was just going to show up here eventually? I must thank you for the effort to assert a personally proper aspect into the faith debates. For the record though, I read the "wonderfully homosexual" line in a different context. But that's as subjective as "What's the first thing you think of when you see the color red?" Also, on the record, the frustration you're relating is exactly the reason I left the Christian practice behind. (I'm quite sure we'll have HOURS of fun with that someday.)
Searcher ... you cracked me up with the "men in bed" bit. I haven't heard that funny an apocalypse since ... well, it's been a while.
P_I ... (w/necessary apologies to Lori) I have been debating much of late regarding the difference between an individual Christian and "Christianity" as the word has come to be known in the United States. Essentially, I have been driving the question: While I know that individual Christians may not be part of the looming spectre of "Christianity" which draws slings and arrows from a wary "pagan" community ... well, why aren't these individuals stopping the institutional degredaton of the potential of Christian faith? Now perhaps this has nothing to do with Lori and I hammering away at each other on the subject, but I do think Lori's response was appropriate in the following context: The tone and manner of the remark, as she read it, tweaked her sense of propriety, which led to her response. And though, as I noted, I read the phrase in question differently, I would offer you my own answer to "is there not some better way in which to state [one's opinions]?"
* Generally, yes. But sometimes you feel you have to get people's attention.
I would also like to note that your disapproval of homosexuality is shaky. While many people point to Leviticus to express God's disapproval of homosexuality, they ignore Lv. 21.16-ff, when God has much to say about disabilities. Actually, even if we restrict those words to apply only to the priesthood (an argument I've heard and can accept, because ...) I still find the reason interesting: "they shall not profane what I, the Lord, maketh holy."
Speaking of decisions, what happens when I or anyone else can no longer respect your decision to call yourself Christian? After all, if you haven't chosen to be Christian, you're really not--no matter what your parents or a confirmation certificate or anything else might say. So then what happens when the people around you can no longer respect your decision?
Actually, this little drama so caught me up that I have no coherent observations to offer on the future, as such.
thx
Tiassa
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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited October 12, 1999).]
plain_insane
10-13-99, 12:00 PM
Tiassa,
Thanks for the post. I understand a debate can get a little heated sometimes, so if I overreacted, I am sorry. I also have to sy that individual Christians do try. We get out and do everything we can, but news and media will not tell the good stories only the violence, scandalous, and crime stories that will bump their ratings.
As for my disapproval of homosexuality, it is totally firm.
Read Romans 6:14-18 and then
Read 1Corinthians 10:23-ff
It clearly states that a believers are not under the law of the OT, but also that not being under the law is not a license to sin. In the next passage it continues with this thought. Except this time, it not only says that we should not do things we know are sins, but we should not cause others to stumble. So if in your opinion, a handicapped person should not be a priest, if I was a handicapped person, I would stay out of the priesthood just to make the way more clear.
Finally, the Christian lifestyle is based on a relationship with God. It does not matter what the world thinks. We answer to a higher authority, so if you feel that you can no longer respect my decision, I just hope it is not because I am not showing Christ to the fullest in my life.
I have one final question for you though.
If you no longer respect the winds decision to blow, does it stop the wind from blowing on you?
Just a thought.
Plain_insane
plain_insane
10-13-99, 12:12 PM
oh I almost forgot.
disapproval of homosexuality
Sodom and Gomorrah(destroyed for many things, one was homosexuality.)
Genesis 13
Another verse
1 Corinthians (I have forgotten the verse. I will look it up and post it later.)
It is not just stated in Leviticus, but that is where much of the law originates from. There are many passages like the one you pointed out. In defense of the passage in question, though, long ago, God made his home in the temple. The part of the priestly work that this refers to is the Holy of Holys. It was where God actually lived. If anything unclean or with any defect stepped into that room, it died instantly. The perfection of God kills it. That is the only explanation I have to offer.
In regards to the homosexuality topic, here's the way I sum it up....I would fuck a donkey if God told me to. I know that sounds freaky-weird, and of course that will never happen, but I'm telling you, I would. What does that do to your theory regarding "disabilities"? I also don't think that most homosexuals consider their preference a disability. People try to act like it's not TOTALLY OBVIOUS that the purpose of sex is procreation, hence the marriage (for parents). Have we all learned recently what parents are good for? Like any gift from God (and may I say what a wonderful one it is), it must not be abused or perverted. Ok, I could go on now to illustrate all of the ways that we have degraded the meaning and value of sex, and perverted the entire (rather elementary) biological purpose to fit our astronomically selfish needs, but lets see if you guys can't figure that out for yourselves. Any takers?
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God loves you and so do I!
Lori about your monkey comment...
Are you afraid of God then? You would just to it without hesitating.. ?
So if a prophet (non religious one) told you to do the same thing.. you wouldn't do it right?
BAH!
P_I ...
Romans, Corinthians, Genesis ... written by men. I understand the idea that the word of Christ is the word of God, but these do not reflect either God or Christ, but rather the authors' interpretations of God's will and Christ's philosophy.
Ah, the spirit of the wind. The wind has been here much longer than I have. Who am I to question its wisdom?
***
Now, of the Leviticus passage itself ....
From 1990-96 a group called the Oregon Citizens' Alliance attempted to pass "equal rights" laws that would have shattered free speech. The laws prohibited their respective governing bodies from recognizing homosexuality as anything but sin and detriment. The results of their poorly-written policies would have been numerous: no state employees (teachers, cops, office clerks, the Governor, state legislators, &c.) could be homosexual; the Universities could not admit homosexuals; any books not directly condemning homosexuality could be banned from public libraries; police would be obliged to NOT defend peacable demonstraters protesting the new laws .... Only one or two local ordinances ever passed; enthusiasm melted when the courts squashed Colorado Amendment 2, virtually the same law. However ... the OCA, being deeply "Christian" in its organization and purpose, cited Biblical "mandates" as their justification for these dumb ballot measures. Well, by that same logic, Oregon would then have to invoke Leviticus and tear down all of the wheelchair ramps and get rid of all handicap parking spaces. After all, the Lord says that the disabled profane what He makes holy. Never mind that, according to faith, God made these people the way they are. So, in other words, God doesn't like one batch of cookies because they don't look quite right, so he throws them out.
The Bible covers a lot of ground: approving of incest, opposing masturbation; setting the difference between murder and defense as the difference between day and night; brides' financial value based on whether their husbands made them bleed on the honeymoon night ....
Who gives humans the wisdom to select which Godly "mandates" (to use the OCA's questionable logic) are convenient?
thx,
Tiassa
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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
PercyPea
10-13-99, 10:58 PM
H-Kon, only a fool is not afraid of God
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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!
Searcher
10-13-99, 11:34 PM
Lori,
And you think I'm weird?!
That reminds me of a sign outside of a local church. It read: Beware, Jesus is watching you! or something like that. WTF is that all about? How can people have such misconstrued ideas such as "...only a fool is not afraid of God." There's nothing to be afraid of. Do you really think that God's goal is to instill fear into people, or to banish those it doesn't like into hell? Maybe the answer to these questions will help you see why so many think of christians as naive. People like yourself give christianity, and religion in general, a bad name.
truestory
10-14-99, 02:28 AM
The books of the Old Testament revealed the knowledge of God and of mankind in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Jesus Christ.
The principal purpose of the old covenant was to prepare for the coming of Christ. The Leviticus passages being referred to above were mainly instructional in nature and spoke to the "sanctity" of the body which was needed for priesthood in the context of ritual laws prescribed for the priests of the tribe of Levi. The Book of Leviticus is almost entirely legislative. The laws contained in that book instructed the Israelites of that time on how to keep themselves in a state of legal purity or external sanctity as a "sign" of their intimate union with the Lord.
Physical "irregularities" or "defects" simply would not have been perceived or revered as symbols of "sacredness" or "holiness" by those looking up to the most sacred altar of offering at the time. However, individuals with irregularities were certainly not thrown away.
"... on account of his defect he may not draw near to offer up the food of his God. He may, however, partake of the food of his God: of what is most sacred as well as of what is sacred."
H-Kon, only a fool is not afraid of God
Then my suspicsions have been on the mark then. So you are basically saying that" I have to be Christian, because I am afraid of God". "
Fear is one of the major problems on this planet incase you haven't noticed it. Being afraid of God just plain dumb, because God him/she/it can't do you no harm since you will never see God. God is within you, You are a piece of God. so you have to be afraid of yourself then no?
If that's the case, if the God you are worshipping does indeed exist, then there would have been no need for him to give us logic, common sence, and the creative forces behind the human nature. We have those abillities so that we can think for ourselves instead of being dependant upon someone else. If us the humans break the rules so much, why did he give them to us? So that he can sit there ( White man with the beard theory) and laugh his head of while he could have removed those abillities and program his virtues into the humans to save the trouble..
Doesn't make sence.
I believe in God, but consider me more of a Wiccan( I have read some farieshaman)than a Christian. It just makes more sence.
Ok, so I'm weird, but I'm serious. And no, I'm not afraid of God. I am a willing worshiper. I'm not afraid of anything. I want to do God's will because I want to do what's right, and to please Him. I am saved by His grace only, nothing more, and certainly not based upon anything I've ever done except for asking for forgiveness, and repenting, and asking Him into my life. I feel though, that since He is so full of grace to save me, that I WANT to do His will. Do you understand? I'm not afraid of anything!!!! Isn't that great? Not Satan, not aliens, not the end of the world, not anything!!!! Thanks Jesus!
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God loves you and so do I!
You see Lori, I don't believe you. You say to much you are not afraid of anything but in fact you are terrified !
You can be angry all you want with me but I hope that at least you can admid it for yourself that you are afraid.
Your whole world revolves around fear of all those things that you just mentioned. It takes no psychologist to see. Inside in oneself is the first step to true happiness so ask yourself : are you happy ?
I'm sorry I'm going personal on you now but you are asking for it.
Now it is your turn to trow all the shit at me, go ahaed.
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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton
That's OK Plato, you know I don't mind getting personal. Otherwise, what's the point of being a person? I'm really not afraid of anything. I'm not quite sure why you don't believe me. If I was afraid, do you think that I would risk doing what I'm doing? Flash asked me one time recently if I was afraid of the aliens. You know, I'm out here trying to fight them tooth and nail, and I guess she thought they may come after me or something. They can't. I know that. They won't waste their time on me cause they know that I know. The power of the Holy Spirit is stronger than anything else. I have power over Satan and over the aliens in the name of Jesus. There's no need to be afraid. Even of the end. I almost welcome it in a way. Though it's depressing to think about that souls will be lost, I am looking forward to being with Jesus. Hear ye, hear ye, you can cut my head off, disembowl me, rape me, torture me, come on give me all you got, cause I've got Jesus on my side. I'll die for him in a heartbeat. I'd stand in line to. There is the most powerful protection in the universe available free of charge through Jesus, and I've got it. I told Flash, if there's anyone out there who deserves an anal probe, it's gotta be me, but notice I'm protected. That's the only difference between me and an abductee.
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God loves you and so do I!
Ok, perhaps I got a little carried away there. The reason why I think there is a possibility of rupture in your impenetrable shield against all evil is that it requires a condition : namely you have to believe firmly and with all your hard in Jesus, once you show even the slightest doubt terror comes rushing in.
Still in a way I admire your firmness, but is all this strength really nescessary ?
I rather prefer no conditions at all, doubt, believe, it doesn't matter : one lives, one dies why I don't know. Perhaps we will find out, perhaps we won't. If we do find out will we be happy or happier ? I don't know, but the thing is most things are always a lot more subtle then we first think. I think it will be impossible for us finite beings to totally comprehent the way and the meaning of the universe. I'm not sad for this because it would mean there is going to be something to find out for generations to come.
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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton
plain_insane
10-15-99, 12:02 PM
If the New Testament was written by men, who was the Old Testament written by? Also the story you posted, did you see that first hand or read about it in a newspaper written by. . . well who was it written by?
Nice dodge on the wind question, but I am still waiting an answer.
Now as to all the things the Bible approves or doesn't. I believe I have missed those. Do you have verses that I can look them up? Just as a suggestion on incest, read Lev. 18 being as that is OT and you seem to agree with that. The only instance of incest I can think of is in 2 Samuel, but he is punished and killed for that. The Bible makes it plain that it is wrong.
who gives humans wisdom?
God. (I don't expect you to believe this but it is true.)
about the godly "mandates" as you put it. That is another post and I am unfortunately out of time on this subject. I will post soon on that topic.
OK read in context. What does God make holy? His temple! I won't keep arguing this passage because you will not listen if I said it a thousand times. But let me answer your next question before you ask it. In the New Testament, it says we are not under the law but by grace we have been set free. This verse eliminates the rules about that. We believe in Jesus he makes us holy and no matter how deformed we are we are still holy and not profaning what God has made holy because it is us. It also says we are the temple of God. He lives inside us.
Finally, one thought on homosexuality. The Bible says we are to love the sinner and hate the sin. I completely disapprove of the way they live, but I don't agree with the methods that that group chose to use. (I don't live anywhere near Oregon.) I do hate homosexuality, but Jesus came so that none should perish(even homosexuals) but that all should have eternal life by giving up sin(homosexuality) and trusting in him.
There was also a comment about they didn't like the fact that Christianity had 1 condition is there anything that has less strings attached than that, a "free lunch" so to speak.
Plain_insane
I believe, as a Christian, that the End Times are here. However I do not believe that Jesus will be coming back on 1/1/00. The Bible states that He will come as a thief in the night. How can He sneak in if everyone thinks He'll be here on that date? We need to be sure that our hearts are okay with Him so we aren't left behind.
I believe, as a Christian, that the End Times are here. However I do not believe that Jesus will be coming back on 1/1/00. The Bible states that He will come as a thief in the night. How can He sneak in if everyone thinks He'll be here on that date? We need to be sure that our hearts are okay with Him so we aren't left behind.
I believe, as a Christian, that the End Times are here. However I do not believe that Jesus will be coming back on 1/1/00. The Bible states that He will come as a thief in the night. How can He sneak in if everyone thinks He'll be here on that date? We need to be sure that our hearts are okay with Him so we aren't left behind.
PercyPea
10-15-99, 07:00 PM
I beleive as a shambles, that vanja should be well observed for the shamblin 3 posts of exactly the same text
well done vanja :)
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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!
Woops! Thought I edited. Sorry!
P_I.....
I may say the wind is the wind. You might say that God is God. In either case, then, there's not much to do about it. But you question the will of the wind, and my regard to it. I cannot choose what the wind can do. I can choose to stand out and get cold, or go inside and be warm. God may be, but you choose to believe in It or not. You ask me when I can no longer respect an event in nature over which simply occurs. Your faith, unlike the wind, must be a conscious choice.
As to the story regarding the Oregon Citizens' Alliance ... I lived there while this was happening. I remember hearing the words of Lon Mabon and Phillip Ramsdell, the group's organizers. I remember working on a PAC campaign. I remember the day some "Christian" threw a firebomb through a window and killed two people in an exercise of "God's judgement". It all happened within sixty miles of me for five years. If such detail is necessary, though, I'll try to find some old copies of the ballot measure in order to demonstrate the thorough stupidity that these people dragged an entire state through.
As for Biblical citations, it's been awhile since I spent petty evenings gathering dredge to throw at Christians. But I should be able to find them.
Which returns us to godly mandates: I'm merely wondering how Christians reconcile the use of one part of the Great Work for political means while ignoring other parts which threaten not the political issue itself, but the logical structure motivating the issue. If we cite the Old Testament regarding homosexuality, what then do we say about the disabled, the blessed incestuous (I'll get that citation, for sure), or other contradictions between modern, libertarian conduct and the "Word of God".
thx,
Tiassa
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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Truestory ...
I'm clipping a quote from your post:
"... on account of his defect he may not draw near to offer up the food of his God. He may, however, partake of the food of his God: of what is most sacred as well as of what is sacred."
Should we finish this? The biggest slap in the face to this passage in Leviticus is God's reason: "they shall not profane what I, the Lord, make holy." Okay ... there's a simple logical problem: God makes them as they are, and then forbids them from certain aspects of their culture because the way It made them offends It?
Since I'm trying to demonstrate a selective error in the logic, we might look at God's comments in Leviticus. For context, as well, please bear in mind that the American Lutheran Church teaches its young from a "Good News" Bible, where I first read it this way. On this matter I cannot speak for other churches. But between Good News, NIV, and NAR Bibles, it seems that "God hates that" is a great justification for a lot of things.
Really ... if I had to choose between having sex with sheep or not, my answer would be no regardless of the fact that "God hates that". I've heard about Alexander the Great. I simply don't want to die that way.
I still wonder why the parts of the Bible which contradict an allegedly Christian philosphical or political position suddenly evaporate. I once read the Leviticus passage during a lecture sponsored by the University of Oregon Christian Coalition. I asked the same question comparing homosexuality and the handicapped. My answer came from a young girl in the audience who literally leapt up, waved her hands about, yelled "Praise Jesus!" and then declared: "Ephesians! Put on your armor!" And the room applauded. Please understand, I could care less about what people think behind their closed doors, but when they go to vote ... hey, their Democracy doesn't outweigh civil rights.
In this aspect I might also ask God's opinion on fellatio and cunninlinguis. After all, these acts are still illegal in parts of the United States largely because people think it's "God's will".
thx,
Tiassa
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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Searcher
10-15-99, 10:24 PM
Plain_insane,
The only instance of incest I can think of is in 2 Samuel, but he is punished and killed for that. The Bible makes it plain that it is wrong.
Actually, I can think of a couple of examples of incest in the Old Testament, where no judgement seems to be passed on it whatsoever. First is Genesis 19:29-38, where it describes how Lot's daughters got him drunk and took advantage of him in order to become pregnant by him; the other is Genesis 20:12, where Abraham explained to Abimelech that his wife, Sarah, was indeed also his half-sister.
tiassa-Look to the Message, not the messenger.
Searcher-The Bible tells us that we are not be seen naked by opposite sex in-laws. I think that may cover incest. Being faithful to spouses and no premarital sex-plus not marrying within the bloodline or it will taint the offspring-covers all else.
Searcher
10-16-99, 01:06 AM
Vanja,
That wasn't my point - I was merely pointing out to Plain_insane some passages in the OT that seem to condone, or at least overlook, the practice of incest. This was in response to the statement made by Plain_insane, "The only instance of incest I can think of is in 2 Samuel, but he is punished and killed for that. The Bible makes it plain that it is wrong."
If the Bible has a personality, it could best be described as "multiple". Ever wonder why that is?
truestory
10-16-99, 05:53 AM
Tiassa,
I read your post which stated:
"... So, in other words, God doesn't like one batch of cookies because they don't look quite right, so he throws them out."
The excerpt which I included in my post:
"... on account of his defect he may not draw near to offer up the food of his God. He may, however, partake of the food of his God: of what is most sacred as well as of what is sacred."
was used to point out that these individuals were not thrown out by God. Yes, at the time, they were excluded from the Levi priesthood which was being prepared to "represent" the "holiness" of God to the Isrealites.
It is my understanding that the writings of the Old Testament were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit in preparation for the coming of Jesus Christ. I would like to re-emphasize, however, that I do not take the Bible literally - particularly the Old Testament. The main themes, however, I believe are important.
From what I understand, the central idea of Leviticus, which was repeated often throughout Leviticus in keeping with the teaching of the relationship between God and man, was: "You shall be holy, because I, the Lord, am holy." The passage which you referred to, I believe, was taken from the ritual laws prescribed for the priests of the tribe of Levi who were being prepared to "represent" the "holiness of God" and, unfortunately, due to the limitations of the human mind and the culture of the time, those with "irregularities" would not have well represented the "holiness of God." In the limited minds of mankind at the time, the "irregularities" would have symbolized an imperfect God, thereby profaning God in the eyes of man. This would have been counter to the reality of God which was being taught.
With all of the selective errors in logic (particularly in the Old Testament), I am thankful for the gift of Jesus Christ (God in the flesh), who was able to perfect the Word of God for us and who demonstrated throughout his life that we are all equal in the eyes of God.
I'm with you Tiassa in that I am turned-off by organized religions and wierdness in church!
Thanks for listening!
Searcher
10-16-99, 02:24 PM
Lori,
Today, right now is so hideous to me, I just can't handle the thought of having to deal with this Godlessness any longer. It sucks. I guess the reason that what you wrote is so depressing to me, is that I can totally see it happening. That's a very reasonable forecast of events, IF Christ does not return before then. Let's keep our fingers crossed, shall we?
Amos 5:18 says, "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light."
Matthew 7:21-23 says:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
You might want to think twice about wishing away your time on this earth, Lori.
plain_insane
10-17-99, 11:01 PM
Then this is where I will say "goodbye". It is obvious that everyone on this message board already has their minds made up. I could throw just as many answers at you as you could throw problems with the scriptures at me. I have come to the conclusion that you would still not believe so with much regret I am going to leave.
I have given answers to questions, but people don't accept them. Why ask a question and not accept the answer? There is no logic behind that.
The wind blows and though you may be inside a house, the wind can tear down a house. Just because you may choose not to believe in God doesn't mean He is not there and His judgement will not affect you. I pray that all of you will someday find God. If not, I pity your souls, and will continue to pray for them.
Other "Christians" may not act Christ-like, but only God knows who the real Christians are. I will neither judge nor make excuses for the Oregon group. They were wrong. I was not part of that so why judge me based on them?
As for "blessed incest" that is a lie. Incest is unmistakeably throughout the scriptures called sin. I can not explain Sarai, but I will study it further. As for Lot's daughter's. They became prgenant(that is enough punishment for most women) and then their offspring became two of the leading enemies of Isreal in the Old Testament.
Good-bye and may God bless you all.
Plain_insane for the Lord
Searcher
10-17-99, 11:32 PM
Plain_insane,
If you're still here, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you feel that way. I would assume you know the meaning of the word "discussion" and you accept that when you post here. Conversation is a two-way street and no one here has all the answers. But we do all have ideas, and just maybe we each hold a tiny piece of the puzzle that when put together will reveal one big picture. None of us can see what the big picture is just by looking at our own little piece, so maybe we should share our thoughts with each other - what do you think?
At any rate, not having everyone agree with you is no reason to take your toys and go home! That's just plain poor sportsmanship!
Truestory--
I may be spinning this whole thing too far off topic but ....
Somewhere in Leviticus (I think), God reminds His people that He will punish sin to the fourth and fifth generations. In practice, I tend to find that scandal descends like bloodlines, and I can accept this interpretation. But I've also heard and read interpretations that say the people found various "irregularities" as manifestations of God's will, indirectly motivating the Leviticus 21 passage. (If the "deformed"--as one version puts it--are on God's bad side, they should not bring that ill sentiment into the Holiest of Holies.)
That one's hard to reconcile, logically. I'm interested in this point in your take on this. And also the following, which I consider the most apt demonstration of God punishing the descendant generations:
* Writer H.P. Lovecraft is best known as the 20th century's macabre king. Socialist, thinker, and obsessive, many of his stories are childhood nightmares retold. His education was unique because as a child he was always ill, dysfunctionally so. His father had apparently contracted syphillis froma prostitute in Chicago and returned home to bestow that gift to his young wife and, eventually, their yet-unconceived son. Lovecraft grew up twisted, alienated, and embittered, dying young and alone inside his visions, of stomach cancer, symptomatic of his chronic syphillis and other, resultant congenital health problems. He was the last male Lovecraft ... there are no more. The first time I read the story I thought of that idea ... that God had punished the wickedness right out of the world.
Twisted, eh?
thx,
Tiassa
------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
There's a difference between wanting the end of the world to come, and wanting Christ to return. Be careful not to jump at cute little conclusions about what I say. If you want clarification, just ask. I'm saved so don't fret. Aren't you familiar with the bevy of verses that speak of the joy of Christ's return and how we should be waiting and looking and keeping watch? I am. Though I don't have them memorized, I know what I'm doing and I know what's in my heart, and I'm not sure if I see the need for you to judge that. Can you explain? I mean, I would have to be crazy to look forward to the devastation and the loss that will come. Let me ask you....why do you think I've been out here telling people that aliens are of Satan, and to give their lives to Christ before they are deceived by them for a year and a half or so?
Actually Searcher, when I read that scripture, I tend to think of Jim and Tammy Baker, and all of the "holier than thou" money grubbers out there who just looooooove to judge others. Some people use religion for money, others for power, or for fame, or for inclusion, or so they can feed their egos and rationalize their judgement of others. Do you think they may be missing the point?
------------------
God loves you and so do I!
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited October 18, 1999).]
Searcher
10-18-99, 08:29 PM
Lori,
There's a difference between wanting the end of the world to come, and wanting Christ to return. Be careful not to jump at cute little conclusions about what I say. If you want clarification, just ask.
I mean, I would have to be crazy to look forward to the devastation and the loss that will come.
Well, Lori, according to your own standards, you must be crazy! For your convenience, I've pasted one of your statements below, which was posted May 26, 1999 11:06 PM:
H-kon - I'd have to agree with you. I think the shit is going to hit the proverbial fan very soon. In a way I'm very anxious to get this ball rolling because its really going to change all of our lives. Some for the better and some for the worse, but I think that our generation is a special group of people.
I guess that as long as it changes your life for the better, everything's okay.
I know what I'm doing and I know what's in my heart, and I'm not sure if I see the need for you to judge that.
I believe I've had a glimpse or two of what's in your heart, Lori, and I'm not sure it's what anyone would define as being Christlike. Case in point (a message to generalhurrss, posted on May 29, 1999):
Hello? You didn't make a fool out of me because I failed the quiz, you made a fool out of me by spewing that Jehovah's witness shit like it's the true word of the Bible, you arrogant sob! YOU are the one that said that we aren't going to heaven, right? Were you being sarcastic, or judgemental? Make up your f'ing mind. You are here to slam Christianity just because YOU SIR were stupid enough to let yourself be taken by a bunch of fools for two years. Listen, I'm glad that you changed your mind, and decided not to take their word as the truth, but coming out here, and slamming all Christians, including me, is not an answer. You sound very stupid and close-minded. Get over yourself, general, and you may just learn something new. Because what you have been told about the Bible is a bunch of bs.
Well now, isn't that special? You don't think I should judge you? You mean like you were judging me earlier in this thread? I can't imagine you doing unto others what you wouldn't want them to do unto you! But then, I suppose the golden rule doesn't apply to you - you're saved, after all.
See why I don't go to church, tiassa? I don't want to hear about the "evil homosexuals", and all of the other "head up our ass Christian" rhetoric that is so vehemently spewed on a regular basis. This searcher dude sounds like the same egofied, holier than thou type who doesn't get the message at all. You know, the same type that I have spent countless hours out here trying to counteract. Please don't listen to this bullshit, it's not Christianity.
But do you know the thing I like best about your posts, Lori? It's that cute little signature at the end, "God loves you and so do I!"
Searcher & Lori ... I'm feeling the need to stick my nose into this one.
I find it interesting how humanity, regardless of faith or self-perceived lack thereof, consistently manage to act in a manner that directly contradicts what seems to be society's stated desire. In order to reduce crime, we pass dumb laws that make a million people criminals overnight. In order to secure peace, we bomb each other senseless.
Thus we hit several apparent paradoxes. Consider guns ... regardless of the 2nd Amendment, I think we can all agree that the bullet is no way to govern or advance a society. Yet who rules? In the end, it's the people who have guns. And if they don't have them when they come to power, they get them once they're installed.
Or a Simpson's episode of recent memory: When the mayor abandoned the town, a council of "learned citizens" replaces him as municipal authority. They pass laws to give people what they, the learned citizens, believe people want, yet the public don't want the laws. In the end, it seems, the people would rather have been governed by the stupid ... it's easier to work out logic based on preconceived notions. Is this idea that far off from reality?
So in the end, the peaceful, intelligent people (the adjectives do NOT go hand-in-hand), who might (MIGHT) have the tools to determine the sum of the public desire and enact it properly, don't. The best ideas get dragged down in irrelevant greed. What has this to do with anything? Everything.
There is a point when you have to yell, "Enough." Consider the Parental Music Resource Center. What else but an organization devoted to censorship could get Twisted Sister's frontman, Dee Snider, cussing and railing in front of Congress? While the conservatives said, "Your profanity does nothing to help your cause," the expressionists might retort, "At least we now have your attention."
But what happens when you are obliged to be peaceful? What happens when the act of yelling "Enough" diminishes your credibility in the eyes of the audience you hope to affect?
Modern Christians seem bound by this idea that God says they can't be angry, can't aggressively drive a point to its conclusion. In a sense, it's unfair. To the other, it's the Christian's choice to abide by that apect of their faith.
So what happens when one Christian feels, as a conscience issue, that another allegedly Christian viewpoint is wrong? It's easy if you're pushing for the ideas that are considered conservative ... you have two-thousand years of political bullying to reenforce your position. But if you're trying to change the system to reflect an idea that you feel is closer to the core philosophy ... what then? To use an example ....
(w/necessary apologies to Lori)
If ... if, if, if .... If a Christian (say, Lori) reads/hears/sees another person pushing an allegedly Christian idea that she finds corrupt, that's her credibility as a human being and as a Christian that's going down the drain as well. Non-Christians, myself included, have a nasty habit of flinging Christian principle back in the face of Christians as hypocrisy fodder. Some of us don't have that conflict with our own philosophies, since they often espouse comparatively little as definitive. But if, in this case, Lori is to see a post which purports to reflect Christianity, but which she feels does a disservice to the sum of her faith and to the evangelical potential of her church (evangelism is vital here) ... what is she to do? If she remains silent, she is misrepresented. If she speaks out, she's a hypocrite. The situation kind of sucks.
I'm watching this kind of fight carry out daily in this forum. I can't speak for other of Lori's quotes included in Searcher's posts; but I do know that the one beginning with, "See why I don't go to church, tiassa?" came up during an exchange on the issues reflected above.
Maybe I don't get along with various Christian viewpoints, and as long as logic is a standard in resolving philosophical dichotomies, it seems that atheists have Christians against the wall. But how long before they fight fire with fire? As long as it's not Dresden, Hiroshima, or Mrs O'Leary's cow all over again, how can I deny them that tool?
Perhaps we might turn that other cheek, but if armed, stupid people are really running the show, all that philosophy will get you is a bunch of Christians with their heads beaten in.
thx,
Tiassa
------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited October 18, 1999).]
Double Overdrive
10-18-99, 10:04 PM
I am going to speak on the matter of the subject;
I don't want to sound pesimistic, but humanity is increasing its technology at 100 fold more than previous generations. By 2050 I predict that humanity will no longer exist. I know most of you disagree with me, and you have every right to. Population, destruction of enviroment, 3rd world nuke threats, terrorism, the list goes on and on. The odds of survival are very low.
Of course we have been lucky in the past. Cold war tensions almost brought modern civilization to an end. Our next major threats similar to this, is terrorism (which is MUCH worse). This is a "religous" forum, so I will give my opinion:
If god wanted to really "save" us, he would have let the great flood kill all humanity :)
Our human nature can never be "fixed", we will never be able to stop our inovated thinking from destroying us. (we may be blown back into the farming village stage of civilazation, but not extinct) This may be the reason why we can't seem to find extraterrestrials (they are all trying to surpass the technological lump)
For those of you who believe god will help us through this mess ahead of humanity, I have one think to say to you:
Where is god?
Surely if god wanted to save humanity, wouldn't he want a head start?
--------------------------
Copyright 1999 "My Opinions"
Blizzard Domain - http://go.to/blizzdomain
Searcher,
Oh man. I just read this whole post over. I've laughed. I've cried. I laughed so hard, I cried! I wonder why you're out here trying to "bust" me, but since ya did I'll offer up some explanation...I'm sorry dude, but the homo thing with the rapture verse just kills me! BAH! It's just hilarious, I can't help it. And I know that I can get pretty lippy sometimes too. Have you ever heard what Jehovah's Witnesses believe???? It's crazy. They think that they are the only ones going to heaven. Because they travel door to door and preach to people. That's taking scripture out of context in order to support the ego (which is of the flesh). Don't get me wrong, I'm all for preachin' the Word, but there is such a thing as taking scripture out of context to support something that is false. Like racists do, or like some preachers do with the scripture regarding "riches". That organized stuff can really put me on edge. I was really turned off by organized religion for some of those same reasons and others when I was young. I suffered alot because of that. Once I did finally get religion the hard way, I realized how detrimental organized religion can be SOME times. I thank God for the ministers of the Word out there. It particularly angers me though, especially as a Christian when people use the Word for something other than it's purpose. I'm sorry, I'm sorry if my choice of language offends you or anyone else. It's not intended to. In your case, I don't think it does really, I just think you like pointing out when I do something that the Bible says is wrong, because I say I'm a Christian. I am a Christian, and I'm a sinner, and I'm forgiven. I'll try to be nicer. And about the end....here's what I'm sayin'....you're right. No one should look forward to the end, to the loss, to the devastation, to the end of the chance for others. I have honestly prayed many times for mercy and for time and for the Holy Spirit to flood this earth and in the hearts of men so that they can see the truth. I pray every day for the salvation of others. Those who post on this board as a matter of fact. Who knows, maybe even you. *wink* As a matter of fact, I'm struggling right now in my own life because of my faith. Having faith, and following guidance from the Holy Spirit is not an easy thing for a girl like me to do. The more I pray and hear the Word, the easier it gets, but it is a fight. Really standing up for what's right, and giving your life to God is not easy in a world like ours; like mine. So yes, I look forward to the Millenium. I look forward to being with Jesus. But not at the expense of one single soul, and I trust in God to know the EXACT time. There's nothing any of us can do about that. We can just pray and spread the good news of Jesus. That's why I post here, ironically enough. I never said I was a good preacher, just a preacher. :)
To All,
Brokaw reports tonight:
We're losing the east coast. The floods are continuing, there's pig poop everywhere. Like thousands and thousands of miles of rancid pig poop. Insurance companies are being blown out of the water; city planners and developers alike. Almost a direct quote "we calculate actuarial results based on a catastrophic occurance happening every 100 years or so, and now they're happening once a month." Or something along those lines. Then straight to the fires out west. Then to the renewed interest in nuclear defense due to increased threats. Nuclear war...what a concept. If you can't see God in a nuclear warhead, then I don't know if anything's gonna do it. Think about it. Don't you have to ask yourself the question WHY??? How did it possibly get this bad? That's when people get religion.
------------------
God loves you and so do I!
Searcher
10-18-99, 10:37 PM
Tiassa,
I'm not certain if you saw my response to Lori's "See why I don't go to church, Tiassa" message, which I posted October 12, 1999 at 8:11 PM (on my computer, it shows up as the last post on page 2). As I stated in that post, she completely missed the point of my message, and so her response had nothing to do with anything I actually said. Nor did it have anything to do with the intent of my post. Nor did she ask for clarification of my post before launching her missiles at me. And she really didn't refute what I had said about the social structure that would be in place in the end times (at least, according to the scriptures I had quoted), except to tell me I was weird and to warn everyone that this wasn't Christianity. I don't mind an argument, but I do prefer it to be a rational one, sans name-calling and swearing.
truestory
10-18-99, 10:45 PM
God is with us. You can recognize God after you allow yourself to be filled with the Holy Spirit. God does not want to "save us" in the temporary physical sense which is alluded to... God wants to share with us spiritually, for all eternity, in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit IF that is what we want. THEN it is up to us. We must use our free will to decide whether or not that is what we want. We were all saved through the gift of the life of Jesus Christ... Whether or not we accept the gift is another matter entirely. In a way, God gave us the tools and the information we need to save ourselves. God is and always has been very much "with us." The real question is "Where are we?" Spiritually, are we with God or against God?
Searcher
10-18-99, 10:48 PM
Lori,
Okay - if you promise to play nicely then so will I. But that doesn't mean I won't post my ideas, however bizarre they may seem to you or anyone else. You are also free to post your ideas, as bizarre as they might seem to me or anyone else. If you don't agree with my ideas, you are free to refute them and offer whatever proofs you might have. I will do the same. I think that's what a debate is all about, hence the name of this forum. Agreed?
Oh, and by the way - I'm not a "dude".
truestory
10-18-99, 11:25 PM
I read the above exchange and asked the Holy Spirit to guide me to a helpful answer. I opened the Bible and this is the passage which I was led to immediately:
POWER OF THE TONGUE
"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you realize that we will be judged more strictly, for we all fall short in many respects. If anyone does not fall short in speech, he is a perfect man, able to bridle his whole body also. If we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we also guide their whole bodies. It is the same with ships: even though they are so large and driven by fierce winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot's inclination wishes. In the same way the tongue is a small member and yet has great pretensions.
Consider how small a fire can set a huge forest ablaze. The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. This need not be so, my brothers. Does a spring gush forth from the same opening both pure and brackish water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, produce olives, or a grapevine figs? Neither can salt water yield fresh."
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 18, 1999).]
Double Overdrive,
This really belongs in World Affairs but...
Our human nature can never be "fixed", we will never be able to stop our inovated thinking from destroying us.
Not so. Human nature can be fixed. It's the attitude that our behavior can't be changed and our lack of taking action that creates this paradox. The trouble is, taking action, whatever that may be(large or small) is too much burden for most people. They would rather lead their lives over-consuming, polluting, spreading hate and discrimination, and not thinking of or even being aware of the negative impact for society and the future of which they carry. I see this everywhere--it's called humanity. Fun, isn't it?
Isn't there a scripture that says something
to the effect not to be so quick to point
out what wrong a brother might be doing
when you have a plank in your own eye
Truestory?
Flash,
I guess if someone wants to focus their prayers and preaching to correcting the "serious issues" regarding profanity, then that may be a worthy cause. I personally don't see it, but none the less. I have bigger fish to fry. So pass the tartar sauce. :)
------------------
God loves you and so do I!
Lori,
Yeah, I guess so. LOL
I guess to some that is more important than
intentions of the heart
Searcher
10-19-99, 01:43 PM
Lori,
I guess if someone wants to focus their prayers and preaching to correcting the "serious issues" regarding profanity, then that may be a worthy cause.
I'm not certain that Truestory was necessarily referring to your habitual use of profanity in your postings when she posted her message regarding the power of the tongue. It was my impression that she was gently reminding the both of us to mind our tongues lest we poison the entire body - which is a valid point. Truestory, can you please either confirm this interpretation or explain what you meant?
Or perhaps I am the one misinterpreting your post, Lori, as it was rather vague in its intent? Perhaps I could ask you to provide clarification, as you previously suggested?
truestory
10-19-99, 02:54 PM
Flash, Lori, Searcher:
I asked the Holy Spirit to guide me to a helpful answer to the above exchange. I closed my eyes, opened the Bible, put my right hand over a portion of the page, opened my eyes and forwarded the full passage along in the above post. The message came from the Holy Spirit (I was only used to deliver the message).
If it seemed gentle, or unfair, I cannot claim credit or responsibility. It was not my message. The message was sent by the Holy Spirit.
Yea, I can clarify. I mean that the whole reason that I post here is because there are people on this board and lots of them that are being abducted by aliens. They are spreading the end times deception. They are the end times deception. The new age religion that they are perpetuating is the one in the same one world religion of the Antichrist in the end times. THIS IS URGENT! I want to help. I want to argue this. I want to try to at the very least plant a seed of truth in these people's heads, so that they will remember what I've said after the rapture. And you know, I seriously doubt if they will remember the vurnacular of the message, but the message itself. My intentions are pure and of the Holy Spirit. My point is that one can cuss like a sailor, and if their heart is filled with the Holy Spirit, and their intentions are good, then only good messages will come. In a way, I've always talked this way, as I said, lots of people do, and I got into the habit from hanging around redneck guys and being a waitress. It has nothing to do with my message or with my intent. And let me add something that I haven't quite decided how to say. Hmmmm....if you wanted to preach the Word to someone who speaks Spanish, would you preach in Spanish or in English? I don't want to be the "special" girl, the "good" girl, the "holy" girl. I want to be the "real" girl, and I'm just laying it all out as real as I can. My intentions are only the very best, coming directly from the Holy Spirit. You'll witness my figs after I'm gone probably, but I have been told that at least some of you will be martyrs for Christ. That makes me so happy, though I wish that you didn't have to go through all of that. I wish that you could come with me in the rapture. Does that help any?
------------------
God loves you and so do I!
Searcher
10-19-99, 04:04 PM
Lori,
Hmmmm....if you wanted to preach the Word to someone who speaks Spanish, would you preach in Spanish or in English? I don't want to be the "special" girl, the "good" girl, the "holy" girl. I want to be the "real" girl, and I'm just laying it all out as real as I can.
Lori - you're communicating with computer users here, which means we're not entirely illiterate. From what I see here, most of us seem to have a pretty fair grasp of the English language. It has nothing to do with being "special", "good" or "holy" - I see no need to speak "ghetto". It seems to me from reading many of your posts, you are quite capable of intelligent communication when you want to be, and no one here that I can see would benefit by the use of foul language. I suppose if you were raised in the ghetto, it would be easier to understand why you would speak that way. Is this the case with you, Lori? Is that what makes the ghetto approach more "real" to you?
My intentions are only the very best, coming directly from the Holy Spirit. You'll witness my figs after I'm gone probably, but I have been told that at least some of you will be martyrs for Christ. That makes me so happy, though I wish that you didn't have to go through all of that. I wish that you could come with me in the rapture.
Maybe you don't realize how arrogant this sounds, so I'll forgive you for assuming that you will be included in the few who are taken up in the Rapture, while the rest of us poor slobs will be left behind. Lori, this is the very attitude that turns people off when talking to Christians! Every single Christian I've ever spoken to has said the same exact things regarding the rapture, although they can't all agree whether it is all "born-again" Christians who will be included in that phenomenon, or only 144,000 of them, or whatever. Regardless, they all believe they will be among the raptured saints! And without exception (in my experience, at least), they assume that whoever they are talking to will be left behind! Seriously, if I didn't have the capacity to be amused by such human foibles, I would really be very annoyed by it!
Truestory,
Hmmm...know what..I prayed one time..opened
the bible and it said..Judas Iscariot went
out and hung himself.. Go figure...
Searcher
10-19-99, 05:09 PM
Lori,
I mean that the whole reason that I post here is because there are people on this board and lots of them that are being abducted by aliens. They are spreading the end times deception. They are the end times deception. The new age religion that they are perpetuating is the one in the same one world religion of the Antichrist in the end times.
Well, nevermind about your methods of delivery for the moment. I'm interested in hearing what you think about the Rapture - how many will be taken (will it be all Christians, living and dead, all living only, 144,000 only, or some other combination I haven't listed - also, please explain your reasoning or provide scriptures to back you up), and will it be in space ships from the "good guys" (whoever they are), or just a vanishing act - "now you see 'em, now you don't" sort of thing? Will they be removed to another planet? Another galaxy? Another universe? Another dimension? Even if you don't feel you have the answers, what do you think?
I'm not picking on you - I'm really interested in knowing what other people think about this. (I have a feeling you and I may at least partially agree on this one.)
truestory
10-19-99, 06:43 PM
Flash,
Gee, I am really interested. If you wouldn't mind sharing a little more... Do you mean literally that you prayed one time... once? How did you pray? What was it that was happening in your life that caused you to pray for an answer? What did the message mean to you?
Searcher,
You don't want to talk about the way I speak for the moment? *gasp* Well then, I've been delivered. But I do just a little. "Ghetto". Boy, it's been a mighty long time since I've heard that word. I keep hearing that Elvis song "In the Ghetto" in my head now. Thanks, cause I looooooove Elvis. But you're blowing that a little out of proportion here aren't you? You're lucky I don't know how to use that cute little quote thingy like you do. Don't forget that you keep making me go back and read previous posts of mine to check my "usage". It's not that much. I don't talk ghetto. I'm a 32 year old college educated financial analyst from upper middle class suberbia, midwest. Everyone around me talks like I do. Especially when they're being expressive, or when debating something that they are passionate about. I'm a nice person, face it. You are assuming a lot of things I think when you read my posts that aren't true. I have a rather sarcastic sense of humor, and a sharp tongue SOMETIMES BUT NOT FREQUENTLY, but I have absolutely no ill will or malintent towards anyone. Most of the time I'm sitting here with a smile on my face typing away. Let me put it to you this way....I've dated men that (and this makes me laugh), that can use the word f*%k as a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, and explitive. Sometimes in the same sentence! LOL! See, all I used to care about was good hair and a nice butt. Welcome to Ohio! It's called redneck. I'm not actually a redneck myself, as my intellect, education, job, abhorance of racism and the use of double negatives disqualifies me. You may catch me cussing (though I'm so paranoid now, you might not), but you'll never catch me saying "ain't no" or "I seen". But, I have hung out and dated and worked with (still to this day) with some people that you would probably have nothing to do with. And they're good people (well, not all of them), just different. I've hung out with some dangerous people too. Sex, drugs, and rock & roll was my motto. I'm working on it ok??? Now it's Jesus, sex, and rock & roll. LOL! I crack myself up. Ok, now quit dissing me (now that's ghetto). I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings about the homo thing. Now lets be friends. :) Now everybody say "awwww".
Ok, about the rapture, I'm not real good with popping scripture, as I don't remember where I read things. It's a big book. For the life of me, I don't know how people memorize verses. I guess I just haven't been at it long enough. Maybe Truestory would be kind enough to help me?
It'll be all of what is called the Church, which is not a church, but all those who live in Christ, are true saved Christians in their hearts, not just out their mouths or in their actions. People can behave certain ways and say certain things for many different reasons. Only God knows who really wants to serve Him and glorify Him in their hearts. If I'm not mistaken the 144,000 that you mentioned is called the Jewish remnant? I got the impression that they would be preaching the Gospel after the rapture. I think that it will be an instantanious event as it's described. The dead in Christ rise and then the living and we meet Him in the clouds. Jesus doesn't need spaceships. If there are spaceships there or soon after, then it is not because we're in them. They're props in the lie. Satan doesn't know the exact time, but he probably knows we're pretty close. That's why sightings and abductions have increased so much and will continue to. To think about this really fundamentally, if Satan didn't have a lie to cover up the true event of the rapture, then what in the world would possibly stop people from believing the Word? What other thing could you possibly think of to cover up the rapture besides alien abduction on a mass scale? The answer is nothing, to both questions. It's really the only conclusion out there right now, and honestly, I think it's a good enough lie to do it. They will say it was the "good aliens" in the space ships, and they took us somewhere where we'll be very happy living out the rest of our 3rd dimensional lives, while the rest of the planet is preparing to go through a "dimensional evolution", which is a spiritual evolution that also includes cataclysmic disasters. These good aliens, who will point to the Antichrist as the "master teacher", or whatever. He's the top of the spiritual heirarchy in other words; the most "progressed" or "initiated" being in the universe. I think that the concept of God will be one of a "force" or "nature" or "love" or "everything", or really anything except the Father of Jesus Christ who is our only Saviour. And it's another dimension, not another planet. Have you ever read the Share International website? That's where I started this little journey of mine; you should read it. That whole avatar, space brother BS is what got me looking into aliens and abductions. Keep in mind that for some strange reason, this organization is affiliated with the U.N.???
There is no progressive spiritual heirarchy is the point to keep in mind. There is a heirarchy, but it is not progressive. The Antichrist will be able to perform miracles (to us), I mean remember who he is. He'll rise from the dead, or it will seem as this is when Satan enters the body. The aliens are seen as performing miracles, as what is a miracle to us but something that we can't scientificallly explain? They can explain it. And I honestly believe (especially since I got the blessing of the Holy Spirit) that there are spiritual sides of ourselves that can commune with the Holy Spirit to do miraculous things. Most of us just don't tap in. And some of us tap into the wrong spirit, not the Holy Spirit. There's only one other. If it's not of God, then it's of Satan.
------------------
God loves you and so do I!
Lori ....
Regarding "Brokaw reports tonight".
I actually have the dubious fortune to work at an insurance company. I cannot speak to certain, recent, natural trends directly, but I'd like to offer a few observations, if I might.
An interesting thing happened here: At my company, our financial team put out a press release saying that disaster claims had trounced the company's earnigs for the third quarter. A few days later, an article reached my desk in which it was figured that 1999 disaster claims are down from last year, approximately 30%, year-to-date. Maybe this means that various hurricanes and tornadoes had less mobile homes or cardboard-box strip malls to destroy, but it also speaks of a reduction of the deadly force of the disasters occurring.
Actuarial projections are useful under certain conditions. When money, or other human inventions are involved, they have a finite capacity compared to our lifespans. But with natural processes, we have no proper sample by which to make the calculations. Any starting point in our present ignores a mass of data which humans were, by presence on earth or technological shortcomings, unable to catalog.
Consider, please ... people talk about global warming ... 1.5 degrees centigrade in a century, or so. But these numbers left out the eruptions of Mount Pinatubo and Mount Saint Helens, for certain, and, if I recall, a good amount of lesser volcanic activity during the survey period. As the eruptions resulted in a cool period, adjusting this data out results in the mean temperature rising four degrees centigrade. Which means that, during the survey period, the global temperature actually dropped. Related to the coming of Christ, I think that we can't yet include ideas like global warming in our assessment of the Signs, as the negative perspective we take is specifically chosen.
Also, we might clock ice ages in the geological record, but our catalog is not nearly rich enough to make accurate projections. So, while we might speculate about the world climate, we cannot necessarily predict it based on most recent relevant data we have.
I'll leave the nuclear war for a later time, though. My thoughts on the only Spectre of Death I've ever known are not organized enough to do anything beyond babbling drivel.
thx,
Tiassa
------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Searcher
10-19-99, 10:31 PM
Lori,
About that cute little quote thingy: when you go to reply, do you notice where it says, "UBB Code is ON"? If you click on that, you will find the instructions on how to do a number of cute little UBB code thingies. Just print it out for your reference, and voila - now you too can do those cute little quote thingies!
Searcher
10-19-99, 10:55 PM
Lori,
But, I have hung out and dated and worked with (still to this day) with some people that you would probably have nothing to do with. And they're good people (well, not all of them), just different. I've hung out with some dangerous people too. Sex, drugs, and rock & roll was my motto.
You're assuming a lot about me as well. I'm 42 years old, and although I've outgrown the sort of practices you mention, I was young and foolish once myself. The fact that I grew up during the 60's and 70's should give you some clues about my own past - I'm no stranger to the things you mentioned. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?
I'm not trying to blow anything out of proportion. My point is that, in spite of our youthful efforts toward self-destruction, our communication skills were obviously left in tact, and we should be thankful enough for that to put them to good use. The use of foul language doesn't glorify anyone, and it should be obvious by the amount of time and space we are devoting to the subject, that it actually detracts from the points you are working so hard to make. Why would you want to foil your own efforts this way?
Well, I think there's been enough said on that subject. I know you get the point, and the choice is yours. Do as you will.
Searcher
10-20-99, 12:03 AM
Lori,
Please share your opinions of the following passages, which I find most interesting:
Matthew 2:1, 2, 9 & 10:
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him...
...When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
That doesn't strike me as very starlike behavior - does it to you?
Matthew 17:1-5:
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Doesn't that sound a lot like the same cloud that assisted the Hebrews in their escape from the Egyptians?
John 8:23:
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Well, that seems pretty clear to me, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on these passages.
truestory
10-20-99, 03:30 AM
Lori,
Ok, about the rapture, I'm not real good with popping scripture, as I don't remember where I read things. It's a big book. For the life of me, I don't know how people memorize verses. I guess I just haven't been at it long enough. Maybe Truestory would be kind enough to help me?
Help you with what?
truestory
10-20-99, 04:21 AM
Tiassa,
I previously missed your questions posted on 10/18/99:
Truestory--
I may be spinning this whole thing too far off topic but ....
Somewhere in Leviticus (I think), God reminds His people that He will punish sin to the fourth and fifth generations. In practice, I tend to find that scandal descends like bloodlines, and I can accept this interpretation. But I've also heard and read interpretations that say the people found various "irregularities" as manifestations of God's will, indirectly motivating the Leviticus 21 passage. (If the "deformed"--as one version puts it--are on God's bad side, they should not bring that ill sentiment into the Holiest of Holies.)
That one's hard to reconcile, logically. I'm interested in this point in your take on this.
My take on this is similar to what I stated previously... Much of Leviticus was legal code written for those in preparation of the priesthood. It seems that, at the time, people did perceive "irregularities" as a manifestation of "punishment" by God. In a way, it could be perceived as a sick (ill) sentiment.
I'm interested in this point in your take on this. And also the following, which I consider the most apt demonstration of God punishing the descendant generations:
* Writer H.P. Lovecraft is best known as the 20th century's macabre king. Socialist, thinker, and obsessive, many of his stories are childhood nightmares retold. His education was unique because as a child he was always ill, dysfunctionally so. His father had apparently contracted syphillis froma prostitute in Chicago and returned home to bestow that gift to his young wife and, eventually, their yet-unconceived son. Lovecraft grew up twisted, alienated, and embittered, dying young and alone inside his visions, of stomach cancer, symptomatic of his chronic syphillis and other, resultant congenital health problems. He was the last male Lovecraft ... there are no more. The first time I read the story I thought of that idea ... that God had punished the wickedness right out of the world.
Twisted, eh?
thx,
Tiassa
Tiassa,
I am not familiar with Lovecraft. However, I have seen and heard of this unfortunate human condition being played out a number of times before. If you are asking me if I think that your first thought is twisted, that God had punished the wickedness (of the senior Lovecraft) right out of the world, then my answer is no.
There are many who perceive such causes and effects as "punishment" from God because God (through the writings inspired by the Holy Spirit) warned us about not participating in this type of behavior under the penalty of death. However, I believe that it was our merciful God who was actaully warning mankind against participating in certain indiscretions which could, by virtue of natural biological and physical law (not punitive law), lead to disease and death... not only for the first generation that did not heed God's warning, but also for future generations.
Make sense?
Truestory,
No, I do not mean that I only prayed once.
I was just going through some crap..nothing
really big or bad...anyway, I didn't take
the message to mean anything...I didn't
take the message to be from anyone..actually,
I thought it was funny. :)
truestory
10-20-99, 05:15 PM
Ha! Well, you know what they say, Flash... sometimes laughter IS the best medicine! :)
Searcher
10-21-99, 09:55 AM
Here's another question I have for Lori, or whoever might be able to offer an explanation. Why was it prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 that the name of the Christ child born of the virgin would be Immanuel? But in Luke 2:21, it says the child was called "JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb"? This is terribly confusing for me, and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this?
hmmmmmmmmm... That is a very good question
Searcher. I know that it is suppose to
be translated meaning God with us.
Certainly puts a twist on things doesn't it?
Truestory,
Help me with the scripture. You seem a lot more familiar with it than I do. I can't ever quote any because I can never remember where I read it. So if you see a topic that I'm talking about that you can back up, or supplement with some scripture, that would be great.
------------------
God loves you and so do I!
Searcher--
I'm not the brightest when it comes to my old languages. While I might, on any given day, be able to recite the names of the ten sephira, I can't tell you exactly about a word like Immanuel.
But I recall that my Lutheran pastor taught us as children that the word means "God is here" or something to that effect (I do not know the exact phrase), so that by naming the child Immanuel in prophecy, the prophet speaks of the nature of the embodiment of God in Jesus.
However, where my ancient languages get even worse is when I must confess that, as far as I know, "Jesus" is simply a name.
Does anyone know what the word Jesus meant before it was given to the Son of God?
thx,
Tiassa
------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Truestory ...
Thanx for the kind reply. So far as this aspect of the topic is concerned, I think I'm in agreement on your key points. I'm trying to work out the next stage in how this relates to my own approach, but I think at this stage to take this part of it any farther might warrant its own topic. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to ask THAT question without ruffling a number of people's feathers unnecessarily. Right now I seem to have spiraled down to the same question we've beaten ourselves silly over now ... the difference between the individuals and the institutions. Like I said, if I ever figure out how to ask the question....
thx,
Tiassa
------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Searcher
10-21-99, 09:40 PM
Tiassa,
Does anyone know what the word Jesus meant before it was given to the Son of God?
According to a book called, "The Hidden Truth of Your Name", the Hebrew meaning of the name "Jesus" is "the Lord is salvation", and is a variant of the earlier Hebrew name, "Joshua". It shows the name "Manuel", of which "Emanuel" or "Emmanuel" are variations, and it lists the meaning as "God is with us".
Searcher
10-22-99, 12:36 AM
Flash,
Yes, there are many such interesting contradictions to be found all throughout the Bible. It is one huge puzzle, and apparently the prize goes to whoever can solve it!
I have another question for anyone who can answer it: Why does it say in John 1:18 that "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the father, he hath declared him", yet in Exodus 33:11, it clearly states, "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend"? (You might also recall that Moses and Jesus were seen talking together, as I mentioned in an earlier post - the plot thickens!)
Searcher ...
Thanx for the research. I tend to think the definitions of the words might describe the difference between Immanuel/Jesus. Sort of "the promise of God's presence" v. "the presence of God's salvation", as such.
thx,
Tiassa
Searcher,
Yes!!!! Ding ding ding...you've got it :)
That is why I do not understand why so many
buy the bit of "bible is God's word".
There are TONS of contradictions...has nothing to do with how one should interpret it... What is so funny to me is the bible
says that Satan is the author of confusion..
yet, there are so many contradictions in the
bible it will make your head spin like Linda
Blair! LOL
Pookums
10-22-99, 12:14 PM
Hey folks,
I have an interesting problem. I have been absent for a couple of days and have noticed that this post topic has grown faster than the y2k frenzy. My problem is a moral one in nature:
Let's argue for a minute that there are legitimate concerns that the current global trends are leading to an eventual armmageddon (be it theist or nontheist in origin). The moral problem is that I kinda view this as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If one believes that humans will wipe themselves out within the next few generations due to their bad behavior, then this can lead to sense of fatalism.
If one believes that the rapture or 2nd coming (or the corresponding event in one's given religion) is coming soon, then this can also lead to the same sense of fatalism.
My concern is therefore that if a significant number of people believe the end is coming, they may then grow to accept certain trends and situations that would most likely be considered unacceptable if they assumed there would be a future. Let's face it, we're doing a lot to challenge our own existance on this little ball and no one seems to think it's worth our time to try and do something about it.
The point is that if we know what we're doing, than why aren't we doing anything about it? Are we doomed?
I don't know what the answers are.
------------------
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
-Mark Twain
I agree, someting is comming, and I do believe it will be a polar shift. There are many reasons to think so, manily it due. As far as our current system, what's better? The first church tryed to share everthing with each other and the needy. It did not work and did not last long. Com. has failed, so has our type of goverment.Relegion? If it is so good why do we still have all the problems we have to day? All known religons so far in mans history have failed and all the ones today have made no progress in solving the real problems of humanity, except for killing a few billion.
Pookums ...
I think you're definitely onto something. My first cues to this idea started in the last couple of years:
* We know that peace is possible in almost any circumstance, but the lack of a second superpower to administrate the global chess game means war and chaos are spreading much faster; would you rather operate on one humongous tumor, or attack the equal mass in many, smaller tumors? Apparently, the world prefers the many. I was sickly amused when the US hit the Chinese embassy earlier this year--need a war for the millennium? Our CIA is determined to deliver one.
* When the Scottish announced sheep cloning, and Clinton dropped the moratorium on human cloning, a renegade professor in Chicago said he would clone a human being before the new millennium. The contemporary trend, it would seem, would be to regard this human creation as "soulless". Just in time for 2000, eh? (Note: I haven't heard a peep out of the guy since then, so we're all quite sure he was blowing smoke.)
* Fuel economy in the United States is reduced to 1980 levels. Better, indeed, than 1975 levels, but not much. How red does your moon get?
Whether the Christian apocalypse is real or not, I think it's amazing how deeply committed Americans are to pulling this one off. After all, even commerce is facing its potential apocalypse in Y2k, a situation we were well aware of at least since the first transistor computers, but chose not to fix. We're racing toward the apocalypse, and are so afraid of being disappointed, we're trying to manufacture one just in case.
Thanx,
Tiassa
(PS--Anytime anyone says they "know what they're doing", the first thing I think is to clear out of the sector ... some firestorm will result.)
------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Searcher
10-23-99, 01:55 PM
Flash,
LOL! Yes, it would probably not be a good idea to eat green pea soup before reading some of the passages in the Bible! Like the last one I just posted in the thread, "To the Christians" (the one about women speaking in church) - that was enough to even make me start swearing like, well, like Lori! :)
Whoa people. this topic got to be the largest one here ever :)
Lori:
I read through the post where you wrote you were here on the board to warn us.
I do not know if you are scared or not, but here it the question:
1 - How do YOU know we are being deceived?
By that i mean How do YOU know, not your religion.
2 - Would it be possible that New Age people have the right heart and believe in God without believing in Jesus or the Bible?
3 - Is it possible that Christianity is the one religion and the group of people that is being deceived? Or is that unacceptable? ( Read Searchers post in "To the Christians".)
Why i ask these questions is that i can't for the life of me believe that there are so many people have the wrong belief.
I believe in God, but does that mean that i am wrong in my belief since i don't believe with the Bible in my hand?
Considering the little information we have of the (supposed ;)) aliens, how can you then know if they are Satan reincarnated so to speak?
Abductions - They are really doing the same thing as we do to the animals in the wild. Mark them, take samples and put them back to monitor them.. Are humans Satan then?
Yes. Something is coming our way, and i think i have some things that i could share with you on that. I will, but I am waiting for another thing to happen that will confirm it for me.
Polar shift - That could happen
Sun burst - very possible, leaving Earth sterile and desolate.
WE DON'T KNOW LORI, SO HOW CAN YOU???
------------------
"It's always easier to ask questions than to give the answers. The Questions are almost always innocent, but the answer's are most often not".
Haakon T Haug ( aka H-kon)
Why do you find it so impossable for so many people to have the wronge beliefes? For longer than the jewish faith has existed the ancient Egyptins had a extincive belief, even in the after life including a type of so called heven as well as the first grate civlizations in the fertil cresent.The Hindue religion is now concered to be the oldest practing religioon now on earth, not taking in cocerding some of the so called natural religiooons, wicka [pardon my spelling]. Regardless of what we thiink christanity is still the third ranking religioon in the world behind Hindie, Moslm,and Buddist. I to believe in God. But I do not belive the god we are tought to worship today has any thing in common with the real true creator.
Searcher
10-24-99, 12:40 PM
Lori? Are you still there? Or have you been taken up in the Rapture already? Do we get to see your figs now? ;)
Haven't heard from you in awhile, just wondering if you're still with us.
Searcher,
LMAO...yes, it sure can make one swear!
Come to think of it...haven't heard a peep
from Lori today...ohhhhhhh noooooooo
LOL...just a joke Lori. *S*
Huh-huh...Searcher wants to see her figs...huh-huh.
I came in REALLY late on this discussion, but in the future the sun will rise, the sun will set, and this old world will keep on turning with or without us.
666 wants to see everybody's figs. He says he's got a zucchini he'll show you if you show him your figs.
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