View Full Version : If God is or isn't . . . ?
Simple philosophical question:
Much is made in this forum of what God is or isn't. Thus I am compelled to ask--
"When we say that God is something, are we also saying there is something It is not?"
Among Christians, it seems there is this vague idea that God is omnipotent, infinitely good, ad nauseum. Icons and poetry describe the nature and appearance of God. It is all, of course, for naught. But when we say something is something, what happens to those thins it isn't? This rarely becomes relevant, except that God is supposed to be everything.
If God is a booming voice, what is silence? If God is everything, what is nothing? If God is a destination, what is the rest of the landscape?
Or, if you prefer: Stand at the geographic north pole, on the axis. Draw a circle of any diameter on the ground (in the ice, snow, whatever), with its locus on the axis point. Now, are you inside or outside the circle? (Any point on a perceived sphere works for this illustration.)
By calling God that locus, you eliminate all other points. By calling God that circle, you eliminate one grouping or the other.
Is God the Devil or is the Devil actually God? Better yet, does it matter? Whatever we call creation, it all is there. It's almost as if the godly Names and their attributes are all just to distract people from finding out how cool the universe really is.
Thanx all,
Tiassa
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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
Brilliant.
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I am; therefore I think.
truestory
09-21-99, 11:33 PM
Tiassa,
Are you in search of answers or are your questions rhetorical in nature?
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited September 21, 1999).]
tiassa,
I just finished dinner and this was sweet dessert! Yummmmmmmmm :)
>Is God the Devil or is the Devil actually God? Better yet, does it matter? Whatever we call creation, it all is there. It's almost as if the godly Names and their attributes are all just to distract people from finding out how cool the universe really is.<
I don't know if you're being rhetorical or not, but I'll assume you're looking for answers. Obviously this is a circular arguement, because if God were the Devil and the Devil was God, then Good would be Evil and Evil would be Good. Darkness would be Light and visa versa, far would be near and near would be far, gravity would be anti-gravity, matter would be anti-matter, and on and on and on. I'm..... not even going to go further. It's just nonsense. No offense, Tiassa. I think the universe is pretty cool, and so are you :)
Dorkamundo
Dork,
But, but, but, but...
If God created everything, and everything (and all concepts and objects) came from God -- that means the Devil came from God too. That means God is both good and evil -- and the devil, being a lesser being, is just pure evil. Kinda wreacs havoc on the sweet ol' goodie-two-shoes in the sky idea, doesn't it?
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I am; therefore I think.
truestory
09-24-99, 05:15 AM
Although God created us and could control us, I do not believe that God is much of a control-freak. There is an aspect of God, which we are given, called free-will. Although we cannot see it or measure it in physical terms, free-will is a concept that we know exists because we all have it. Evil (or the devil) is a free-will gone bad... a destructive use of free-will, if you will. :)
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited September 24, 1999).]
I've always loved this little philosophical riddle.
Truestory: it's mostly rhetorical. I would love to say I'm seeking answers but I think the fact that there is no clear answer to the principle might be the point.
Dork: I think you're taking it too literally. In order for God-as-Devil to make Good and Evil trade places, as such, one must assume that the only "good" product reflects the observer's own interpretation. In other words, it's a large universe; we might think a bomb or earthquake or war is terrible and evil, but in the larger scheme, it doesn't really matter. The good and evil of our societies mean almost nothing in the scale of the universe. Thus, what you determine to be good could become evil, and v/v, and the universe would probably never notice.
thx,
Tiassa
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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
tiassa, you sure know how to make your statement, I love it !
about free will.
Isn't there something like providence ? Doesn't god knows perfectly when what is going to happen ? He has to if he is all knowing and infinite in time and space, he knows because he exists allready in the future so assuming that an infinite creature can 'know' anything about a finite creature, where is our free will if everyting is known in gods mind ?
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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton
Pookums
09-24-99, 09:10 AM
This is an old riddle and was addressed quite well by St. Augustine.
He was asked that if God is all powerful and so on, can he create a stone too great for him to lift? I'm sure we've all heard that one before; it's a variation on a theme of the questions Tiassa posed.
His answer was thus (I'm paraphrasing here): One cannot ask of God to do something that is a logical contradiction. Attempting to do so simply illuminates the limits of our understanding and not limitations of God.
Of course, this clarifies nothing...
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Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
-Mark Twain
truestory
09-24-99, 09:54 AM
Although God knows what will happen when we exercise our free-will, God is not much of a control-freak and allows us to exercise that freedom. The future that God knows is the result of our expression of free-will... God only knows what that will result in in the long-run!!!
In other words Pookums : Gods works in mysterious ways !
That is the last resort isn't it ? The last untakable fortress : we simply can't understand how it works, we just have to accept it as a fact.
Of course you forget that this statement comes from a human being as well, he might claim that he is in direct contact with this supreme being or even the being itself but we just have to take his word for it.
So ok, don't take my word but what if I walk on water ? Or raise the dead ? Or multiply fish and bread ? Would you then believe ? Don't you see how sad this is for an omnipotent being to have to resort to magical tricks to proof his existence ?
truestory :
you are contradicting yourself, I hope you realise that. Or else you simply have a radically different definition of free will then I have.
Let's first exchange definitions before we continue shall we ?
For me free will is the ability to choose between possible directions your life is going to take.
This choice will be influenced by many different factors: publicity, peers, family, all other sorts of media but still you are left with the ultimate decision. Now, if this decision is already know by a superior intellect all we are left with is the impression to have made our own decision while in fact we had as much choise as the tree who was falling...
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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton
[This message has been edited by Plato (edited September 26, 1999).]
Regarding free will: In the Belltown District of Seattle is a large Christian church of forgotten denomination (I forget the denomination, not history). On the corner of the busiest street running by, there is a large marquee board. Among their favorite slogans during election season is the following:
"Liberty is not the freedom to do what you want. Liberty is the freedom to do what God says is right."
Free will?
thx,
Tiassa
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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
truestory
09-24-99, 08:36 PM
Some view free-will as the freedom to make decisions concerning what direction our temporal life is going to take. Others view free-will as the freedom to make decisions concerning what direction our eternal spiritual life is going to take. The latter is what free-will is all about and it is most important.
God created us and yes, God knows the final outcome of man's exercise of free-will. In a way, some of us who believe the word of God (which we were given as a gift to help us) also know, in general, what the final outcome will be. Some of us will be saved for all eternity, others will be condemned for all eternity. However, God does not micro-manage the spiritual decisions which we make as individuals. God gives us the information and the tools we need to help us choose the right spiritual path. Regardless of what any of us say, we inherently know what that correct path is, regardless of our human laws. God gives us the information and tools (free-will) which enable us to choose the path which leads to eternal salvation with God. Whether or not we do so, is a decision which we all make with our free-will. The only other spiritual alternative is to choose the path which leads to eternal damnation with evil.
Of course, for any of this to make sense, one must first exercise their free-will by choosing to believe in the concept of the soul.
truestory,
how can you "choose to believe"??? You either believe, or you don't. There is no choice. Are saying that anybody could just decide "ok, I'm going to start believing in God at the count of 5: 1...2....3....4...."? If you are making a choice, you are not taking on a belief; you are simply deciding upon the philosophy according to which you are going to live. That's free will.
Faith is not free will, on the other hand. For example, did you choose to learn about souls? Did you arrive at the description of heaven on your own? Did you generate even a little bit of your religion by yourself? No! You were fed your religion, and you made a choice to swallow. But you did not make a choice as to your religion's basic tenets. And let me ask you another question: did you ever face a choice of learning about, say, Polynesian faith before you decided you were a Christian? Or, maybe, Hinduism? Or Wicca, perhaps? You did not make a choice based on selection; you made a choice in the same sense that Soviet Union gave its citizens a choice: you either vote for a representative of the Communist Party, or you don't vote at all. Does that not smack of tyranny to you?
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I am; therefore I think.
truestory
09-24-99, 10:18 PM
LIFE - According to Boris:
"You did not make a choice based on selection; you made a choice in the same sense that Soviet Union gave its citizens a choice: you either vote for a representative of the Communist Party, or you don't vote at all. Does that not smack of tyranny to you?"
I didn't? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Boris seems to be a wannabe god. He thinks he knows all things about all people and wants to create a new race by replicating humans down to their very last emotion - in the form of a machine...
I have no idea what Boris' life experiences have been which bring him to this point, and, I don't know about you, but I don't feel oppressed by tyranical force. In contrast to Boris' Soviet Union example, we do have a choice. Not a choice in the sense of which flavor ice cream to pick at Baskin & Robbins... However, it is not eternal salvation or nothing. It is eternal salvation or eternal damnation. You are very much involved in this process. You have been given the information and you have been given a free-will, so... You decide, er... choose... er... pick...
Just an after-thought... Hmmmm... I wonder what type of god Boris would be?
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited September 24, 1999).]
Wow, this a good one!
TS,
*high five*! Work it, girl!
Boris,
You are being disrespectful, but in ignorance, so I forgive you. : ) I must remind you though that this conversation has deja vu written all over it. Haven't we been here before? If not, then let me remind you that you are assuming that those who are saved in Christ are so simply because they say they believe, or because they want to believe, or because their family believes, or because they want to belong to the church. The Church of Christ, and not a church of Christ, are those who truly believe because they know. You can not know the truth without seeking the truth. And once you look in the right place, you are overwhelmed with evidence of the truth, but it is the kind of evidence that you have to experience personally with God. You are never going to hear me when I say that my life is changed. You won't hear me when I say that I feel as though someone popped my eyeballs out, and gave me a new pair. You don't hear me when I tell you that God answers me when I pray. And truthfully, I don't blame you, because it's something that you have to experience personally to even believe it's happening. BUT, and this is a big but, you do have a responsibility to seek the truth. What else is life for? What is limiting your search is this arrogant assumption that spirituality=ignorance. You assume that every single person who was ever religious in any way throughout the history of man has been so out of ignorance. This is a hideously ridiculous assumption to make. It is you my friend who has not done his homework, because if you had, you would know by now. How long it takes one to figure out that Jesus is the Messiah is the true IQ test. Some never get it. Some who are raised in a Christian household may have an advantage due to "availability", but most do not take advantage, as I did not. There was no way I would commit to Christ if I was unsure. No way. I could attend church with my Grandma. And I could even sit in on prayer meetings. I could pray. I could worship. But if I did not truly believe in my heart then it was all for not, and it was. In order for your salvation to exist, it MUST be an act of free will. And let me tell you, it's an act of free will every day; every minute of every day. It's not easy to be true to God in today's society. Do you notice that the right path is always the most challenging at first? Then when you realize how right the path is, it becomes easy to follow, and you wouldn't ever even think of taking the wrong path again. You can apply that to many things in life, and to Christ as well. Did you forget that I did face a choice about learning about other religions? Most people do within a lifetime. I think that spirituality in general is way, way too much of a topic to ignore. I did not practice, but understand the theology behind many world religions and wicca. I absolutely refused to be spoon fed religion by my grannie. That's just the way I am. I had a choice not to accept any religion or any god. Then I had a choice to accept which god, or are they all the same? No, they are not all the same. Through much study I found that the behaviors which are perpetuated by various religions are very similar, and even the practice of some to be similar in circumstances. The spiritual laws or principles are virtually the same in practice or consequence, but the attribution is what is significantly different. For example, the concept of detachment in eastern religions brings about the same behavior in people as the gospel, it just attributes the law to man instead of to God. Anyway, I'm going on and on, but you really need to ditch the assumption that you are somehow more intelligent, or enlightened than every single person throughout the history of man who has given their lives to Christ, or has worshipped any God for that matter, or even believed in the existence of a spiritual realm for that matter. Really. Do yourself a big favor; it will open many doors for you.
Plato,
What don't you get about the free will? This is easy, dude. Concentrate...God didn't determine the outcome, He just already knows what it is. The little portion of the universe that is ours, we determine the fate of temporarily, from our very souls individually, to our planet collectively, and God knows what we're going to do before we do somehow, but He does not choose for us. Ultimately however, God does step in and determine our permanent fate. Even that is determinate upon what we choose. And knowing all this time how f'd up we all are, and still not imposing His will upon us. THAT is the very definition of free will. You determine your own fate. God IS not good and evil, but KNOWS of good and evil, just as angels do. We were not supposed to ever know. God is the one who determines what good and evil is. That which is of God is good, that which is not is evil. Satan CHOSE to defy God. His decision is what brought evil to earth. Our decision brought evil to us. Satan and his demons are what the very embodiment of evil is for us as humans. If it were not for them, we would not have ever been tempted. There actually are evil spirits and there actually is a Holy Spirit which affects everything we do. You are affected by these spirits whether you invite them or not. You can do things to invite them though. You pray to God for the Holy Spirit. If you meditate without prayer, then you invite other spirits. Satan is deceptive. He does not "seem" to be evil. If he did, then he would defy his very own purpose.
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God loves you and so do I!
Lori,
You assume that every single person who was ever religious in any way throughout the history of man has been so out of ignorance. This is a hideously ridiculous assumption to make.
Not so hideously ridiculous in <u>my</u> opinion. You keep saying that I am failing to think "out of the box". But may I suggest that it is *you* who is trapped in a box, and a millennia-old one at that? The difficult path is not a choice to believe in the supernatural; on the contrary it is far more difficult to discard the supernatural, to see it for what it is. But it is not a choice I make of ignorance; on the contrary it is all of my knowledge that drives me to the atheistic conclusions. Finally, you are not debating just me; I am also but one of many millions, past and present, who happen to disbelieve. And this time, it is you who are suggesting that some of the brightest and most eruditic minds in history have been more ignorant than a Victorian peasant. To my knowledge, education directly correlates with absense of religious faith -- <u>not</u> the other way around.
you really need to ditch the assumption that you are somehow more intelligent, or enlightened than every single person throughout the history of man who has given their lives to Christ, or has worshipped any God for that matter, or even believed in the existence of a spiritual realm for that matter.
Oh, but it's not such a bad assumption. I'm not saying that I am smarter than any believer past and present -- however, I do claim to be among a vast group of people, who, on average, are far more enlightened. (Here, "enlightenment" equals knowledge about how the world works.)
Do yourself a big favor; it will open many doors for you.
Doors open because you unlock them, not because you hope they would.
<hr>
As far as your reply to Plato,
That which is of God is good, that which is not is evil.
But if God is the origin of everything, then how can something be "not of God"?
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I am; therefore I think.
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited September 27, 1999).]
I finally figured out that cool quoting mechanism that Boris always uses so here it goes :
Lori,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font>
<HR>
God didn't determine the outcome, He just already knows what it is. The little portion of the universe that is ours, we determine the fate of temporarily, from our very souls individually, to our planet collectively, and God knows what we're going to do before we do somehow, but He does not choose for us.
[/quote]
How can you say such things ? Don't you see that if something is already known then every choice that is involved is simply an illusion ?
Suppose I am hiking down a trail, suddenly the trail comes to a T-fork, if god knows that I am going to choose the right one then all I'm doing is having the illusion that I can take the left one but I will take the right one any how !
This conception takes away the evilness or goodness of any act a human can make ! If god knows that a child is going to grow up as a serial killer then it can not held responsible for its actions : it just handeled according to its predespositions who riside in gods mind. How can there be something like salvation or redemption if god already knows from the beginning who is going to be saved and who is going to be doomed ? This is (I might add) calvinism in its truest form : there are only 144000 people who are going to sit on the right side of the Lamb at the end of time and it is all predesposed ! No salvation, no forgiveness just plain determinism !
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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton
[This message has been edited by Plato (edited September 28, 1999).]
First i have to say this is one of the best threads that i have read here people.. you are teaching me a lot here. I can't use the big words that you are using, but still... :)
I just have some thoughts about free will..
If God knows about our "choice", why hasn't he made sure that the definition of God is clear among us? Is it because that since he allready knows what's going to happen that he doesn't care since we are all damned because of the path us humans has taken?
Or can we infact make our own choices based upon our knowledge? The comment I then have is, why is there only 2 "choices"- heaven or hell..? ( Christians point of view)
Why hasn't he appeared to us in a way to make it clear for ALL humans that God IS really here, and given us the options? ( reffering to all the religions and mythologies in the world) If he did, there wouldn't be more religions than one, and there would be no ancient religions either in my eyes...
I do have a feeling that our concept of God, if any is warped in the way that If he created us, then why didn't he "finish" the job and at least tell us who's our father..?
So there must be something, or someone that again created God.. and something entirely different that gave birth to life on earth..
H-kon,
Hey dude!! Long time no chat, huh? *S*
You know what? You sound EXACTLY like I
did. Would it surprise you if I told you
that I now believe in God? Yes, ME, Flash!
You have read my prior posts before so you
know how I have argued and fought for so long
to prove that God didn't exist.
For me..and I will repeat..for me..what it
took was to let all the 100 questions that
were filling my head go. Not that one
shouldn't look at these questions..it's just
I let them fill my head to the point I was
blinded to the flip side of the coin.
I can not begin to tell you just how much
God has changed my life, H-kon. Yes, I have
found that he is VERY REAL.
Like Lori pointed out...I could sit here
all day long and tell you of the many changes
but this is something one has to experience.
If you would like to chat about this in
private...feel free to e-mail me.
Have a great day!
Flash
Flash,
I know you are going to hate me for this but you never really disbelieved in the existence of god, you only found a way with which you can accept him.
Could you perhaps tell us how you percieve god ? Is it the God of Lori by any chance ?
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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton
Plato,
LOL The God of Lori?????????? Well now that's
different. *S*
I believe in the same God that Lori does, yes.
I'd really have to think long and hard about
the never having disbelieved. Reason being..
I have totally questioned if he existed or
not. BTW..LOL I don't hate you for saying that... come on *S*
Let me say this though. I STILL do not
believe that the Bible has been translated
correctly... but I believe there are
good things contained in it to live by
and learn from...growth, ya know?
I would like to know what you meant by only
finding a way with which I can accept him?
I mean that everyone needs a handle somehow to come to grips with their god conceptions, a place to start from and go from there. My start is the denial of a divine intelligence but the acceptence of a possible pantheism, a connecting 'force' which is impersonal and amoral but can be 'felt' by anyone who finds its handle.
Take Boris for example (forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth that you don't want) he is by far the most atheïstic person on this board. He even claims himself to be a-religious but here he goes astray ! He is in fact very religious, not in any traditional way but his optimistic belief in the future and empathic feelings for the entire human race make him far more religious then say Dork or Odysseus who just plain hate all non-believers (meaning not having the same god-concept as they).
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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton
Plato,
Ok-got it- I see your point. You know...
you remind me a lot of someone that used
to come here..anyway...
Well... some get carried away I guess...so
much that they lose sight of their original
goal.
ROFLMAO!!!! The God of Lori. Now THAT'S funny!
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God loves you and so do I!
Pookums
09-29-99, 08:31 AM
Plato,
Sorry it took so long to reply...I've been having technical difficulties (i.e. work).
My point with the St. Augustine quote was simply that logical contradictions fail the basic requirements of a philosophical foundation. St. Augustine's reply was not designed to prove the existance of a god, but to criticize the scholars who attempted to use this kind of riddle to disprove the existance of a god on the grounds that it fails logic 101.
For the record, I am an agnostic. I'll find out soon enough what the answer will be.
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Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
-Mark Twain
It is funny in a way but I meant it seriously Lori.
What I mean is that our images of god all differ a little bit, each has his or her own interpretation of how the divine acts upon us or doesn't act for that matter. So by using the phrase 'the god of X' this means the concepts that X has about the divine.
And the fool said in his heart, "Let me thump my Godly chest for all to hear!" Or am I to understand that you are touchingly concerned for all the fools on this board? In either case, how very faithful of you.
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I am; therefore I think.
bdmart,
Thank you for sharing that with us, but I already knew how hatefull the bible stands to atheists. I hope you are a bit more forgiving...
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"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton
Searcher
10-09-99, 01:36 PM
There seems to be some confusion amongst believers and non-believers alike as to what the Bible says about who created evil. Please turn to Isaiah 45:7 for clarification of this point: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
How foolish it would be to study a DC power source, and then argue amongst ourselves as to whether it is positive or negative! It must be both in order to function as a power source!
[This message has been edited by Searcher (edited October 09, 1999).]
Searcher
10-09-99, 02:00 PM
Plato,
Don't you see that if something is already known then every choice that is involved is simply an illusion ? Suppose I am hiking down a trail, suddenly the trail comes to a T-fork, if god knows that I am going to choose the right one then all I'm doing is having the illusion that I can take the left one but I will take the right one any how!
Recently, a friend of mine emailed me an attachment that contained the records of some email chess games that he played with another friend of ours, and told me the outcomes of the games in the body of his email. He explained that in one game his opponent weakened his position by castling queenside, which led to victory for my correspondent. So even before I looked at the records of the games, I knew the outcomes. Does this mean that every choice the players made was an illusion?
Just because we swim within the fishbowl of time, doesn't mean that God cannot stand outside that fishbowl and observe all that happens as if in one brief flash.
Searcher,
There is a difference. If one does not assume time-travel, or a fishbowl that exists within a larger reality, then one gets the picture of the universe unfolding in time. The future does not exist, and with our free will we craft the future at every moment. However, if there is indeed an outside perspective, where everything that will ever happen already happened, then our "fishbowl" is merely a record playing itself out rather deterministically. At least in God's eye, looking from outside the fish bowl, we have no free will; we are indeed bound and governed by fate -- and nothing we ever do shall lead to anything but the expected outcome...
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I am; therefore I think.
Then assume time travel. Ah, eureka! Or something of the like at least. What's the problem?
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God loves you and so do I!
Lori,
I've just read through one inane reply you gave to Tiassa, and now you post an equally brainless one here. Are you drunk again?
The entire point of my preceding post is that if time travel is real, then free will does not exist, and all reality is just a record playing itself out. Please, at least <u>try</u> to pay attention!
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I am; therefore I think.
PercyPea
10-11-99, 10:51 PM
mmm, I think u are slighlty mistaken boris monkee, u say that in Gods eye we have no free will because he knows what will happen in the future and therefore we are following that set path. However, Im sure that if we did have no free will then God would make sure every one does exactly as he wants.
He may know the future, but he doesnt make it.
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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!
I am paying attention, and you're premise is false regarding free will. Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Knowledge of without interfering with. Remember the chess game analogy? Which post to Tiassa are you referring to, and I'll tell you if I was tipsy or not. :)
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God loves you and so do I!
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