Love and Hate

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by wesmorris, Mar 27, 2003.

  1. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm, every coordinate system has opposites right? East and West, Up and Down, Love and hate?

    Does this imply that Love and Hate are two relative extremes of a multi-dimensional coordinate system? Could it be possible for one to define all the poles of human emotions or futher, of the human experience such that they might be simulated, manipulated or exterminated (okay, the last one was just for the rhyme). Thoughts? Oh, and I'm not using multi-dimensional incorrectly. I'm thinking somewhat in terms of an altered form of matrices like a "contuous" matrix rather than a discrete matrix where m and n are (m x n matrix) integers... in a continuous matrix, they (m and n) could be rational numbers. For instance in between any two polar emotions there could exist a point anywhere in between 1 and -1 representing the place on the continuum from of 1 to -1 that is the relationship between the poles being experienced (or remembered).

    HEHEHE.. oh man that confused ME.. I bet it doesn't make ANY sense to anyone else. Pardon.
     
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  3. man_of_jade Psychic person Registered Senior Member

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    Seems logical to me.
     
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  5. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Do you think it's possible to come up with a list of all human emotions? I ponder if emotions even in and of themselves, or a side dish to thought... which would be empty to describe alone.

    GAH! It's too integrated of a problem. Every time I think I'm onto something I realize a whole bunch of other shit plays into it. For instance is boredom an emotion? Kind of, but it has a "state of mind" component to it. Can the emotional aspect of boredom be described without the "state of mind" part? Maybe we don't really have the words/concepts to accurately describe the human experience eh? Hmm.. I wonder if anyone has done any work in that area.
     
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  7. TheVisitor The Journey is the Reward Registered Senior Member

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    Hmm, every coordinate system has opposites right? East and West, Up and Down, Love and hate?

    If that 's true ...How did you manage to end up with two from the same end....

    Dumb and Dumber.......

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  8. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Please, it's obvious that you're an idiot. I don't need further convincing, but thank you for your efforts I suppose... however misguided they are.
     
  9. spacemanspiff czar of things Registered Senior Member

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    "hate isn't the opposite of love. indifference is"

    just little something i heard to consider.
     
  10. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting point, but is indifference an emotion?
     
  11. Eris Registered Member

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    i think i understand what you're originally saying, Wesmorris, and i had a theory once that the whole breadth of emotions operated on a kind of mental pedulumn. not sure if that makes any sense. but the amount of love you feel swings your internal pedulum in one direction and when a feeling like hate comes along, you have the ability to feel that with equal intensity.

    i guess indifference would be when the pendulum would be still and perpendicular. eh, seems logical in the head.
     
  12. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed. In the case I described above it would be respresented by the zero value, thusly my question "is indifference really an emotion". Technically, it's a lack of emotion and is thusly disqualified from consideration... unless of course this is an oversimplification of the relationship between emotions. Maybe there are no poles.. it's a series of independent states.. maybe there are multi-polar relationships.. like x, y and z all required for a particular emotional continuum. This is the kind of thing I'm wanting to explore. It really has to be somewhat understood before a reasonable simulation can be constructed. That is the level of understanding I'm shooting for.
     
  13. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Hehe, I'm married.. so you know... I'm not allowed to get laid.

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    (just kidding if you're watching sweetie... ha. haha. *runs away*)
     
  14. magicman Registered Member

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    I'm sorry for that. Just having a little fun.

    It would be nice to be able to discuss this topic further but I am not educated to a university level.

    I would have to say though that apathy or indifference should not be construed as hate. There is a big difference. We human beings are cursed with conflicting emotions pulling your "inner mental pendulam" in different ways. I myself have just experienced contentment for my last post and was violently swayed towards guilt, wes morris, because you were so nice about it.

    weird how the psyche works.

    I feel like going off to learn about physcology.

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  15. Charles Fleming Registered Senior Member

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    Some good posts WesMorris. However I think there is one problem with bi-polar emotions. It assumes that there are limits to emotions i.e. there is a 1 and a -1. Emotions could be limitless. If not, then what happens when someone reaches 1 or -1?? Maybe nothing. Love and hate could even be human constructs themselves. they have been placed on opposing ends of a scale but who says that they are (or should be). It is quite possible that concepts such as love and hate have been misconstrued over the generations, however this does not really relate to what you were saying.

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    A continuem wouldn't have a 1 or a -1. It would be infinite with infinite variations and variables. (I think

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    ).
    This is true! Indifference is a void of emotion (in my understanding at least).
    Quite likely, in my opinion.
     
  16. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting point, but would 1 not represent a subjective maximim? Maybe.. oh.. what about if the value of 1 changes subjectively over time.. now there's your humdinger right there... oh, and that value could potentially ride on any other value or combination of values that you'd like.. for instance have a maximum possible value of all subjectively evaluated emotion at any time T, then let all of those emotions maximum value change based on the total available emotion at the time.. for instance I'm I'm overwhelmed by awe, my max potential value of love could increase or decrease based on the appropriate relationship with "awe" and the other emotions being felt at that time. Okay maybe that's flaky but I'm sure that there's a bit of something interesting in there.
    I've thought about that long and hard and wonder if actually they are fundamental properties of the abstract space of consciousness (in some form or another)... or sure maybe they're just inconsequential chemical reactions..
    exactly the point of this debate.. that's what I'm asking? do you think it possible to represent them that way....
    Not infinite variables, but yes.. infinite values of the variable in question... hence infinite resolution.. as with any continuous system (but our ability to measure the value is often a limitation).
    I believe that's the definition of indifference..
     
  17. Allahs_Mathematics Mar'Ifah Ahl As-Suffah Registered Senior Member

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    A very interesting subject , but first several things must be cleared up ?

    What is an emotion :it is a (logical/unlogical) reaction of the body understood/identified by the mind

    Now this something like : indifference" cannot be an emotion , since there is no reaction that has taken place . Indifference is not a "something" , it is "lack of something" , namely a lack of emotion .


    yup

    So its not an emotion at all , rather the opposite in its meaning .

    However , that doesnt make this following to be false :
    U see , it is an opposite , just in a different system , not in the emotional system as following implies :

    Indifference in Love would be Not-Loving .
    But thats not an indifference IN emotion , but OF emotion
    Love-Not Love
    Emotion-No Emotion

    In the emotional system , there is no place for indifference , since its not emotion by definition .

    This is so because , an emotion implies a "caring for" , weither it would be in a negative or positive way , an emotion "cares for something" . Indifference , whitch is defined by NON-caring , cant be an emotion therefor .

    So what IS the opposite of love , if love would be 1 , what would be -1 , it would most definetly be Hate .
    Hate is Love's equal when it comes to emotional opposite , i couldnt see any possible arguments that would refute such a statement .
    Why ?
    because Love = Max + caring , while Hate is max - caring , whitch is different than not caring , thats 0 .
    In that sense perhaps more emotions fit between the +1 and -1 .
    But perhaps there are more systems than the one in whitch love and fits , although i couldnt imagine a more important or relevant one , IF one exists in the first place . Ud have to make a list , and i am lazy , but whoever feels bored enough to make such a list , feel free , i encourage it mostly .

    Now the +1 and -1 being finit , while emotional quantity in a certain quality might not be . But who cares ? we'll just make it +x and -x , as long as it isnt 0 , the abscense of emotion .

    They are ofcourse , but isnt any chemical reaction of the body ?
    Een if its psychological , whats the difference , or relevance for that matter ?

    I do
    Love=max caring for +
    Hate=max caring for -

    And with max i ofcourse dont actually mean max in the sense that its only Love when the care is at maximum , it is love when the care has reached a MAXIMUM CATEGORY .

    What im curious for is wheither
    A)The love-hate system are the only system emotions fit in

    An interesting point is the close-ness of Love and Hate . Logically U would say that it takes a while to get from +100 to -100 , for instance , whuile it would be a lot easier to go from 1 to 100 .
    Why are Love and Hate so extremely close to oneanother , while there can be no doubt they are extremes in relation to at least eachother .

    The answer , whitch i cant really defend , i thats its a complete cipher , as in the circle completes with the 2 extremes bocomng one , like when u have a line , and u take the ends of it and make it into a circle .
     
  18. spacemanspiff czar of things Registered Senior Member

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    relating emotions to 1's an 0's?
    you think like i do

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    just on the whole indifference idea. maybe it sounds better if you say that in both love and hate there is a great deal of care. indifference is like not caring. wich is an active emotion. at least in my opinion. you can be activly indifferent. like if you see some one who needs help and you are indifferent towards their suffering.

    ever heard the phrase "he loves to hate them" or vice versa. almost implying that such strong emotions can go together. i guess both love and hate could lead to similar behavior. in both cases you may obsess over the object of your emotion and go to great lengths to let that person know how you feel. I can see how love and hate are very similar, and yet still almost opposite.

    it's quite the paradox:bugeye:
     
  19. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    You forget that many of the chemicals believed to cause "love" are also implied in the emotion of "hate".

    Fuck. I do know English, I do I do I do.

    It's a cliche that there's a thin line between love and hate, that there's no hate like love to hatred turned, etc. The problem with viewing emotions as if they're on a Cartesian coordinate system is that, well, they aren't. For example, romantic love is linked with sex, which is linked with violence (at least, in terms of the areas of the brain they are "located in")...thus love and violence are linked.

    I'm trying to say that there are no real "opposite" emotions.
     
  20. Allahs_Mathematics Mar'Ifah Ahl As-Suffah Registered Senior Member

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    Indifference is not about being activly involved , it means having an active emotion . How can u have an emotion that indicates u r emtionless on the subject ?

    C i cant agree on that , not caring is simply the absense of care , care can be positive or negative . Not caring is neither , its 0
    I care for u to live +1
    i dont care what happens to you = 0
    I care for u to die - 1

    Sure , and here love implies care...she cares alot to hate him
    What about it ? It could just as well be , she hates to love him ?
    Again..because hate is caring as well , this is simply cares a lot to love him .
    word-tricks do not change the ontology of emotions , really......

    Ofcours they can , thats not so strange , since they imply a measurement of caring . But whats strange is , that u can go from +100 to -100 alot faster than from 0 to -100 , for instance ....

    they are opposite

    and there the cipher comes in .

    i did not know this , but would it matter for the theory ? It doesnt have to be different chemicals does it ?

    LMAO

    No they are not , the part of sex that is linked with violence is not the same part of sex that is linked with love .

    so this cant be rpoved by previous example .
    I do believe they are on a system .

    This implies a very anarchy like thing , systemless , randomreactions and stuff . I believe there IS a complex logical system that arranges and creates(logic or illogic ) reactions called emotions .
    Emotion is the entire reason man is active , it is the only reason man reproduces , its safe to say man depends on emotion .
    This cant be just left "undone" just like that , it has to be arranged in order to create a beneficious situation when it comes to survival .

    What if one would not enjoy sex ?
    What if one would not love his children ?
    Shit would fall apart i tell u , and extintion would be done in 100 years .

    In conclusion , there has to be a system , and a system implies perfect opposites , otherwise it would be illogical and couldnt be called a system .
     
  21. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    It just proves that there is no strict liminality between love and hate.

    Prove this assertion, given the existence of the sadistic impulse.

    You believe. In science, convictions have no rights of citizenship.

    No. This is false - emotion is by no means the reason humans reproduce.

    Prove this assertion.

    This proves only that our anarchic emotional reactions are controlled by the structure of the brain.

    No, a system does not imply perfect opposites. And no, there does not have to be a system. Your logic is very flawed.
     
  22. Allahs_Mathematics Mar'Ifah Ahl As-Suffah Registered Senior Member

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    And no liminality means what , relevance ?
    why should all chemicals have to be different ?

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    No they are not , the part of sex that is linked with violence is not the same part of sex that is linked with love .
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    u know i couldnt prove u such a thing

    I could only describe

    love-tendersex-roughsex-violence

    actually.....this is pretty interesting , U c something is missing . Its supposed to be linked with lust , and lust is linked with violence :

    love-tendersex-roughsex-lust-violence

    there u go

    In science ,ad hominum arguments have no rights of citizenship .

    U got my point with what i said on the complex logical system in whitch emotions are arranged , please be civilized and offer a logical refutation .

    Is it not ? No it isnt the ultimate reason , as in purpose=reason .
    But im sure thats not what u meant , nevertheless ill explain u the complexity . Surival is the reason man reproduces , emotion is the reason man actively involves himself (consciously even) in the system of reproduction . Ofocurse social bla bla arguments can also be of importance , but when broken down to 0 , its emotion that remains .
    So please tell me why im wrong , and dont just contradict me .

    What is mans purpose ? it is survival
    What imprtance has mans purpose in man ? maximum importance
    would it make ANY sense to you , to evolve into a complex system of walking straight etcetera , while there isnt even a proper system that "makes sure" through emotions that u get layd and make some kids , the purpose of your whole being here .
    Or is it like ...nah , ill do that stuff tomorrow , lets work on the nosehairs first .

    U ask me prove this prove that , u couldnt prove me ur own existence . What is scientifical proof ? It is logical probabillity

    why do argue with me then ?
    did i ever say that the emotions themself are logical(non-anarchy)
    No i have not , i have only said the system they are in ISNT
    I believe that would be what u call the brain .

    So u actually telling me right here i gave u proof , whoohoo

    U r contradicting yourself

    u just said :
    This proves only that our anarchic emotional reactions are controlled by the structure of the brain.

    thats your system right there mister , or is the entire brain one anarchic mass of ignorance ?
    And how does a system not imply having perfect opposites .
    Stop asking for proof like some mad professor and start providing backup for your contradictions .
     
  23. Charles Fleming Registered Senior Member

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    This is what I was hinting at here:
    humanity has constructed them on a scale, which might not even be a scale. It could be circular, but we view emotions as bipolar.
    This could be possible but how can this be??
    Really?? Can you elaborate please??
     

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