The great paradox.

[yesemina]

I am releasing my "subjective" mind here, to the biggest "realization" that I had recently. Over the past couple of days, I saw how distorted my vision was and how much value I placed on myself. Then, yesterday, I was talking to a friend of mine, who replied to what I said, shockingly, "STOP. GOD. SO SICK OF THIS NOISE." Then he said he was joking, but it stuck out to me, and it hurt. I knew there was truth to that. Then, I saw how mistaken I was in other instances, and I was amazed.

It then dawned on me, everything just IS. I placed way too much value on myself, and on certain things, when the key is no value. Things in nature work as a system, they just are as they are. It is the sickness of our minds that warps them into something other than that. Amazing.

[Tyler]

1) Where is the paradox?
2) Why is this in Eastern Phil?

[yesemina]

1) The paradox is everywhere.
2) Because Eastern philosophy deals with these principles. Example: Emptiness vs. Fullness. The practice of losing your mind.

[Tyler]

"The paradox is everywhere."

What paradox? Could you illustrate to me the paradox? As far as I know my English, paradox means 'a contradiction in terms'. Your first post illustrates no contradiction in terms what so ever.

[yesemina]

I was using the word paradox to represent a concept. This paradox arises in all of our concepts. For example: "When beauty is recognized as beauty, there is already ugliness." Things, in their true nature, are nothing but what they are - free of any concepts. The paradox in my example from earlier, showed that I noticed how much I had placed value - placed myself into conceptual value, and then realized I was radically mistaken, and it turned my life around. It balanced me out.

[Tyler]

You're still not proving that anything you experienced was a paradox.

(yesemina...I'm aware of the philosophy you may have read around this and more than anything right now I'm trying to get you to explain what you mean.)

So far all you've said is "I had one view, and then I discovered I was wrong, and it changed". This is not a paradox at all.

[yesemina]

"When beauty is recognized as beauty, there is already ugliness."

Is that not an example of a paradox? Maybe the word paradox is the wrong word.

And I understand you're getting me to explain what I mean. Thank you.

[Tyler]

No, actually, it is not. Not if I'm taking the sentance to mean the right thing.

That sentance seems to be saying that once one identifies something as fitting of the concept of 'beautiful' one also accepts that the concept of 'ugliness' exists. This is not a paradox as it is not a contradiction at all.

[yesemina]

Hm. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I suppose it just felt like a contradiction when I realized to at least some degree how much I didn't know, when before I was so indulgent in ego, subjectivity, and pride. The best word for it is just "opposites". It was the being humiliated that did it, feeling like my teeth had been kicked in a million times; when all the while I thought I knew it all.

[*stRgrL*]

Yeah... it sucks to find out your not perfect:D

[moonman]

I see a paradox here.

yesemina, Youve had a realization on the nature of your self and your view on the world and you supposedly know that you've been too egotistical prior to your realization, but why then are you declaring this realization to us if you are striving to be less egotistical. Could it be that you are still just as egotistical just that you are expressing it in another form. You feel that you have realized something and think that you should be appretiated for this, or appretiate yourself for making this realization are you not effectively just creating an empty paradox. The trick is to be with out ego whatsoever there are many deep levels to it. Good luck, cause it can't be done overnight.;)

[yesemina]

Actually Moonman, I was thinking about that, and I know that I am still a bit egotistical. However, my fear of humiliation is gone. I want to be humiliated in order to keep myself in line. Haha. I think that the reason why I posted it here is because I was so amazed... there most likely is a part of me that wanted to be appreciated for this; what motivated me to post it was that awe that I realized I was such an idiot and that almost every thought in my head was just too subjective and meant nothing! It turned my life around...that's what motivated me to spread the word. I do know, though, that I've only peeled away one layer and I have lots of other shit that I have to scrape away...so when you say that it does not happen overnight, I definitely can see that, maybe not as clearly as you however. :) It's almost by habit that I find myself sometimes switching back to pride and egotistical mode, but I know this is wrong. It's going to take a lot of self-discipline and humiliation I think.
In the end, I want to get away from the darkness of ignorance and subjectivity into a more "objective" mode. I just want to be what I am without my mind getting in the way, clouding everything with concepts and values, and so on; things that manipulate everything else away from its true nature. It's hard. Or more accurately it's too simple.

[moonman]

It's kind of ironic that you can never realy see the world objectively in the rational mind. There are apparently many things that the harder you try to rationalize the further you get from realizing.
In the end you will still see only through your own two eyes and the world will turn and flow to create the experience that you experience as being you. Objectivity is not an ideal so much as an impossibility but we all strive anyway;).

I definitely can see that, maybe not as clearly as you however.
Oh no, not me.:D I can't seem to hold on to the mindframe where I understand such things(probably because I'm *trying* to hold on), but I'm learning, always learning.

[yesemina]

GOD. IM STILL AN EGOTISTICAL FOOL!!! Hahaha

[yesemina]

Yeah, that's the hard part. I see myself striving for objectivity, but once I do that, I have gone too far. It's too simple, or something. One day, maybe, hm? I can only hope.
There are a couple times when I've been able to drop my mind, and I know that I'm more aware than usual of the present moment, because I don't know what I'm doing. I just do it. And then, if I look back, and I don't even feel as if I were there - that I'm just doing what I'm doing. And I know this is the right state of mind, but it's very hard to keep permanently.
Also, in these moments when I've been able to drop my mind, my sense of humor is developed and I get kind of witty, playing with words. I've always had a strange sense of humor, but once subjectivity and mind is dropped for the moment, my sense of humor comes into play!

[moonman]

Just a small observation that you seem to like talking about yourself alot. Think about it.;)

[yesemina]

Haha, god. Yes. Thank you.

[Tristan]

Reality is relative.
Everything is relative.

Qoute: "...Noise."

Everything is in the eye of the beholder, including "noise".
:D ;)


Laaaater
T:cool:

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by yesemina
It then dawned on me, everything just IS. I placed way too much value on myself, and on certain things, when the key is no value. Things in nature work as a system, they just are as they are.

Please explain "I placed way too much value on myself".

I agree things work in nature as a system, just as they are, but i do not see how anything has no value, could you elaborate on that?

In the end, I want to get away from the darkness of ignorance and subjectivity into a more "objective" mode.

Perhaps a balance of subjectivity and objectivity needs to be got, after all, realisations don’t come purely from objectivity and the ability to make sense of them don’t come purley from subjectivity.

I just want to be what I am without my mind getting in the way, clouding everything with concepts and values, and so on; things that manipulate everything else away from its true nature.

A part of you, is your mind, thus there is no getting away from it, perhaps what is needed is the ability to free up the mind. :)

Originally posted by Tristan
Reality is relative.

That statement is contradictory, don’t you think? :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

[moonman]

Some good words from Jan, don't try to escape or surpress your self, it won't work. Just accept yourself and the world. Accept everything to be what it is.

*Look at me giving advice when my own my mind is a messy wreck- ironic:D*

I agree things work in nature as a system, just as they are, but i do not see how anything has no value, could you elaborate on that?

I just want to comment that 'value' is a human invention, there is no natural law that says that life is valuable or that love is valuable etc.. Because there is nothing to be lost or gained, the universe will be just fine without humans and their thoughts.

[Tristan]

That statement is contradictory, don’t you think?

Not to me. But then again, everything is relative AKA in the eye of the beholder.....


Later
T

[yesemina]

Yes, like moonman mentioned, there of course is value but no natural law that says there has to be value. That's what I meant..

And yes I agree with you Jan, that I don't necessarily want to separate myself from my mind or suppress myself in any way, but to free up my mind. I'm realizing more and more every day of how much fear I really had. I always felt like I had to please people, or front some image towards people, which is a common problem, but I thought I had learned to be myself a long time ago! However now I realize I just started to act upon my own idea of myself...when in reality I just need to scrape it all away. *Sigh* The ugly truth. Haha.

Liz

[spookz]

i have to hug yese and cop a feel

there, all done
carry on

[Jan Ardena]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by moonman
I just want to comment that 'value' is a human invention, there is no natural law that says that life is valuable or that love is valuable etc.. Because there is nothing to be lost or gained, the universe will be just fine without humans and their thoughts.

Firstly, human beings are in part, nature, all our inventions are based on natural phenomenon, to have some kind of control over nature, and uses natural phenomenon in their creation. Our minds act and react in total accordance and cannot go outside of nature.
Value, in my opinion is a part of our survival under the conditions of nature, i.e. we understand springtime to be more valuable (in general) than winter, given a choice of whether our arms gets damaged or our brains, we choose our arms, why, because we instinctively know the value of each.

You say there is no natural law that says life is valuable, I ask, why do some animals, birds and insects, fight to the death to secure their young or their queens? ;)

Human thought is a natural process, just try to stop thinking for 5 minutes and see. :p The only thing about us that could defy nature, are the choices we could make, but the way they are made is completely natural, wouldn’t you say? :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

[Jan Ardena]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by moonman
I just want to comment that 'value' is a human invention, there is no natural law that says that life is valuable or that love is valuable etc.. Because there is nothing to be lost or gained, the universe will be just fine without humans and their thoughts.

Firstly, human beings are in part, nature, all our inventions are based on natural phenomenon, and uses natural phenomenon in their creation. Ultimately, our aim is to have some measure of control over nature. Our minds act and react in total accordance and cannot go outside of nature.
Value, in my opinion is a part of our survival under the conditions of nature, i.e. we understand springtime to be more valuable (in general) than winter, given a choice of whether our arms gets damaged or our brains, we choose our arms, why, because we instinctively know the value of each.

You say there is no natural law that says life is valuable, I ask, why do some animals, birds and insects, fight to the death to secure their young or their queens? ;)

Human thought is a natural process, just try to stop thinking for 5 minutes and see. :p The only thing about us that could defy nature, are the choices we could make, but the way they are made is completely natural, wouldn’t you say? :)

Love

Jan Ardena.

[moonman]

Re: Jan's stuff...

5 minutes without thinking? that's nothing, I spend waay more time infront of the TV than that :D.

But is still deem that value is merely an abstract concept like so many other things such as emotion and purpouse. While the difference being that the concept of value is derived from our specific social and mental evolution in the past. It's a not a natural law in the way the the universe might value a plant over a rock, cause frankly I see a hell of a lot more rock and conditions that are not very suitable for a plant;).
But you are right, our thoughts are a natural process just as is our existance, indeed in this context there is nothing that is 'unnatural' (natural is an abstract concept aswell) becasue everything is the way it is and no other way. There is nothing in the universe that says there shouldn't be nuclear bombs, or paedophiles, it may be hard to accept but this is the way things are.

[Jan Ardena]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by moonman
Re: Jan's stuff...

5 minutes without thinking? that's nothing, I spend waay more time infront of the TV than that.

That doesn't mean you have stopped thinking, only that your thoughts may be temporarily diverted.

But is still deem that value is merely an abstract concept like so many other things such as emotion and purpouse.

Why do you put "emotion" and "purpose" in the same bracket, there is clearly a purpose behind nature regardless of anyones emotions.

While the difference being that the concept of value is derived from our specific social and mental evolution in the past.

I believe we use "value" for our own benifit wherever possible, but differentation and discrimination are used not only by the human being but by all living beings, thereby proving it is not, at the root cause, a concept, but a reality.

It's a not a natural law

The universe acts under the laws of nature meaning there is a law, but there is nothing that says "value" is not natural, and that it must be sanctioned by any law.

in the way the the universe might value a plant over a rock,

What do you mean?

There is nothing in the universe that says there shouldn't be nuclear bombs, or paedophiles, it may be hard to accept but this is the way things are.

Yes there is, goodness, higher intelligence, we should IMHO take on board that intelligence is a natural phenomenon.

Love

Jan Ardena.