Dot Net

Discussion in 'Computer Science & Culture' started by Blindman, Feb 19, 2003.

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  1. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    Hi all..

    I am wondering if anyone has used DOTNET C++ to write DIRECTX8 apps.

    If so, have you had any luck getting it to run on win95 and win98 machines. I keep on getting missing DLL's errors or incompatible DLL's (missing functions). Is it posible to install a DOTNET produced app on win95 or win98.

    Hoping someone has had some experiance and could help.

    Thanks...
     
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  3. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Dot.net is evil and must be eradicated.
     
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  5. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    The best development enviroment ever... From web development to 3D apps.

    DotNet spells the death of JAVA... Long live C#.

    You obviously have never used it. Get a life and try it.
     
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  7. mouse can't sing, can't dance Registered Senior Member

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    Even if so, it _is_ still evil... carbon copying Java's best features and calling it a revolution is at least a bit of a shameful practice.
     
  8. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    blindman

    You obviously don't understand the industry. Let me explain.

    1) Microsoft coding is crap. It's ugly, messy, and ugly. And messy. Their patented languages are built around this ugly messiness.

    2) Any attempt to flood the workplace and market with a language copyrighted to some corporation is BAD for the industry. Why? Imagine a world in which C# and VB and dot.crap became the predominant languages, everyone using them. Who controls the standards? One corporation, run by MBAs. Heck, the hardware companies could then produce dedicated chipsets designed to run faster on those paradigms. After that point we're all locked into an ISA in which EVERYTHING is controlled by one group of MBAs. No global standardisation by experts, no improvement by third party coders and engineers, no development. All you could do is wait for the next issue if Visual Studio, and code everything in WINAPI or MFCs.

    You see, the anti-MS feeling among programmers and engineers is not a baseless anti-Them rant. It has a very good reason, and a very good purpose.
     
  9. AntonK Technomage Registered Senior Member

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    Amen...

    After that last post...I can say only 1 thing....Amen to that brother!

    -AntonK

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -- Open Source is the Future...don't bet your career on anything else --
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  10. nukem Banned Banned

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    you cant do eny thing on 95 or 98 it wont work or you just have to many programs on your computer.:m:
     
  11. AntonK Technomage Registered Senior Member

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    Who says you have to use ANY type of Windows? Using Windows is like buying a car with the hood and trunk welded shut, and a monochrome screen where the windsheild used to be. Sure its a bearable representation of whats really going on in your machine, but if anything goes wrong (and it ALWAYS WILL not matter WHAT system you're using) there is nothing you can do about it in Windows. Just give Open Source a try...the freedom is invigorating!

    -AntonK
     
  12. malisha Registered Senior Member

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    Adam,
    You speak like you have had multiple years experiance

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    And maybe to someone who doesn't know to much you might sound like you know what your talking about but hey, lets analyse what you just said.

    Have your ever seen microsoft code, have you ever seen anycode they write behind any of their apps ?

    Ok lets say your refering to the api's and libs they produce for us programmers to use, are you saying that thats messy ? Or is it just because YOU dont understand what its saying and that is why YOU call it messy ?

    Ok granted thats true, but do you think that people would pickup on a sh!t product ?
    If you have been in the industry you would know that the best thing to use is the best tool for the job. Windows 2000 is very stable and still at the same time very usable. Hence we need languages, tools to make development under this environment quick.

    Dot.NET and C# is jus the perfect tool, i have used it extensivly and it is dead easy to use and quick to create apps.

    Do your really think this is possible Adam ? .. really ?
    See these are comments from a person who has never really been in the industry before. If you thought about it more carefully you would know that many servers right now which handle mission critical systems, that control the most important things are some flavour of nix, whether its solaris, linux whatever.

    Windows does not have a product that can compete with for example solaris interms of relaiblity with super heavy loads of processing, you wont find mission ciritical systems which will be using win2k servers, there maybe some but 90+ percent will be some for of solaris or linux machine.

    With this in mind the market will never get to the point where windows coding standards will be the most predominant.. ever unless of course microsoft produce an os that can compete with solaris for these types of systems and do a better job.. in which case why the hell would i want to stick with an inferior product just to be cool and say microsoft sux ?

    Yeh there are windows servers for hosting pages, asp servers and all that crap and windows is competing with solaris interms of these issues but thats bascially all.

    Another point is the FACT that you cant see the windows source code is already another disadvantage with microsoft because some systems require some major changes in the lowlevel code and since you cant see the windows code you cant see or change it.

    You freaking moron, if you knew things like C# and VB run with virutal machines and require their own runtime then you would know that it wouldnt be possible to control hardware.

    Lets say for example you run amdXP with faster processing for XP, would you rather amd not make this, would you rather they made it for linux or solaris amdsolaris or amdNix, how useful would this be ? are you using a nix machine or solaris machine right now cuz if you arnt be thankful that your PC is running faster because of the extra XP instruction set processing .

    Again do you really see this happening ? really.....you make it sound like microsoft will take over the world, they may have a hand int a few things but they will never take over, there are people continously developing and inveting, do you think that people will stop doing this ?

    think about it mate ....
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2003
  13. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    malisha

    Nope, I have only recenelt begun getting into WINAPI coding, and my personal opinion is that it is ugly messy crap.

    Lety's see. People are still using Win9x. So no.

    Win2000 is stable compared to win9x. But it is hardly a brilliant system. We're talking tens of millions of lines of code, and it's still buggy as hell. The one and only strong point (again, my person opinion) to any windows systems is that they are easy to use.

    But yes, the best tool for the job. But why use a crappy tool if you could use something better?

    I found VB incredibly easy to make apps with when I had to play with it in classes. Does that make VB good?

    I'm well aware that most servers are not windows. Also that the US army a few years back dumped the majority of their NT servers in favour of Solaris.

    As to your question: "Is it possible for a sub-standard system to achieve ISA status?" Of course it is. That's why we use PCs. That's why it has taken until now for the world's most popular PC operating system to start using principles Unix and other systems had 30 years ago. Sorry to disappoint you, but the computer industry is loaded with examples of sub-standard crap becoming standard.

    I'm well aware of this. Unless you're into all that cracking and decompiling stuff, anyway.

    I'll go slow for you, okay? IF, hypothetically, MS languages gained predominance, they could then create their systems with specifically those languages in mind. You wouldn't need a VM. They would have the freedom to run VB and C# directly off the APIs as they do with C and C++ under Windows. Now, the APIs are a method of accessing the DLLs of the operating system. WINAPI coding is coding to the APIs, so your programmes run off Windows-specific code. MFC is the same but a step up from WINAPI coding, to make it easier. VB and C# run off those same DLLs, using Windows instructions.

    Now, IF a company (MS for example) can make its languages predominant, it can dispense with all intermediate steps and dispense with all nods toward standards, and simple produce code which only runs on their system. Oh heck, they've already done that. Gee whiz, Batman. So we have code running only on Windows.

    Now, what do you do to make code run faster if you have 1) a monopoly on the OS, and 2) a monopoly on the copyrighted language which runs on that OS? You make it all integrated, further and further. Eventually you get to the stage of having chips designed specifically to suit your style of engineering/coding. And then we get to what I mentioned before, a crap ISA.

    Tell me something. How many computers in the world today are Unix-like, and how many are Microsoft?

    Again: How many people have MS systems in their home, as compared to Unix-based? The computer game industry pulled in about 550 billion dollars two years ago. That's an awful lot of influence. What percentage of those games do you think were made to run on Windows?

    Yes, people are always inventing and developing things. But once again, we do get stuck in ruts, in crap ISAs. Windows is only recently doing things which Unix did 30 years ago.
     
  14. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Please stop the flaming threads of Microsoft.We have had enough of discussions in past dont you think?lets do something creative.Let us start a Lecture thread where anyone could give lecture about anything and later would answer questions,only related to computers.(like for example Assembly,Perl,Java,C#,C lectures...)

    what do you think?


    bye!
     
  15. AntonK Technomage Registered Senior Member

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    flaming...

    Just in case anyone takes what I am saying as flaming, I appologize. Microsoft makes <bold>some</bold> very good products and I enjoy them. In fact most of their products are great. However, I am alwas on the lookout for what is better and If I find something that I believe has the potenial to be better thats what I want to talk about. So, just to set the record straight. I don't hate Microsoft. I hate some of their business practices.

    -AntonK
     
  16. malisha Registered Senior Member

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    If someone at the current present moment is still using 98 without the intention of upgrading lets please not include these people becaue they obvously dont care what they are using and would not have any bearing on this argument.

    BUT ok lets look at win98.. 5 years ago was it a good product ? it was decent i was happy with it, it did the job most people wanted and NO other operating system on the market could deliver anything like it. Is this right ?

    If this is true then why would you call it crap. If linux could play all the media files i wanted, play all the games i wanted and still retain its stability then yeh id say win98 was crap compared to linux, but how can you say windows 98 is crap if you have nothing to compare it against ?

    OK please state to me one bug in windows 2000 which you have encountred which has serioulsy hammpered your use of the operating system ? please dont look this up on the internet, honestly answer this question.

    We have operators who have their PC connected to solaris servers serving them data, whats the best (for the job) most stable OS we can give to these operators seeing as their previous system was pushbuttons on a wooden panel with a old green and black monitor ? should we give them a workstation which has linux installed or should we give them an operating system which they would atleast have some familiarity with ?

    Again ... which is best for the job, do you have a better suggestion in this senario to the "crappy tool" which is microsoft windows ? if you do id like to hear it.

    This leads from my previous point ok, if windows 2k is the best tool suited for the operators (unless you can argue that it isnt) then which tool would be best to use when developing code on these workstations ... the tool which allows the quickest development am i right.

    Look i know that VB is pretty ugly and has its own version of 00 which in mainstream thought isn't classified as proper 00 but again the .. best tool for the job.

    you cant compare apples and oranges, windows might now be trying to add more principles which unix and other systems had 30 years ago but windows was not meant to achieve what those other systems are set out to do, lets put it this way, atleast MS are trying to make their product better trying to incorporate what good points *nix systems have to offer into their systems, maybe linux - solaris should take a page from the MS book and try to make their OS easier to use, plus add those features which make windows the kind of OS everyone wants to use.

    remeber not everyone likes to have to edit makefiles, create directories or modify configuration files then compile it just to get a program to work, and have it crash after installation requiring the user to go back and trace their steps making sure they didnt forget any steps.


    See do you know why i belive that MS languages will not gain predominance, because like you i know that some of their stuff is pretty crap, for example VB is pretty ugly in the fact that it tries to pass its self as an 00 language and the simple fact that C# is a rip of of java but still cant run on OS like linux, how can languages like this be mainstream abd replace whats standard, see ADAM i do not see this happeneing ever, because the people who know whats what, know that microsoft does make some crappy stuff, and basing a whole industry on what one company produces would be the wrong thing to do. You still have in your mind that microsoft is this big bad monster which will take in everything alive and replace it with their crap, it wont unless its products do get better then what is mainstream.

    See if micorsoft made runtimes for C# which ran on nix machines i would use it .. why because then that would mean that its better then java ... it has everything java has (actually its more 00) then java is, we still have primatives in java where else in C# everything even the ints are objects, you dont have to put object wrappers around the ints, you have #defines and you have pointer manipulation to a certain extent, why would you still use java if c# has all this and can run on all OS's ? why would you use java why why why ? c# would be better in this case.. am i right it has everything java has + more and can also run on all OS's.

    If MS made an OS which could do everything nix machines could, be as solid and stable as a nix machine and still be dead easy to use, and have that abundance of TOOLs and support would you still use " as you would say a crappier tool" just because you dont like microsoft ?

    If microsoft did make better products i wouldnt see anyone complaining but see i JUST dont see this happeneing anytime soon, so all arguments which say hypotherically speaking if MS became predominant .. or if microsoft became the only language people used ... because unless MS start making some of their products match or better then what is currently out there it wont happen.

    I just dont like this bashing of companies , MS bashing, unix bashing what ever because its just so tossy specially if someone asks a question about an MS product hoping for an anser and someone hyjacks the thread by saying how they wouldnt use it cuz MS sucks ... its stupid.

    Its like those crackpots in the physics and maths forums who like to introduce their own pet theories when someone asks a proper question about physics.

    Please tell me whose fault this is, why do you use windows at home because at home you dont want stress, u want to install a program by double clicking it and letting it do everything on its own. whose fault do you think it is that this isnt the case with these other systems suck as unix and linux.

    And as a result of my above point people use windows right .. and why would game developers write games that would run on an os that not many people are using ... cant you see most of the people who use the computer do not know what an xterm or even what "ls" does.

    See i dont support any one company, i just like to use thats best for the moment, if someones using C# they probably have a freaking good reason to use it, cuz its easy to use, cuz they wanna try it cuz they wanna code somthig in windows, why knock it.

    If you where gonna code something in windows what would you use adam, would u use the old MFC, winapi stuff or would yo use C#, or because the fact that you dont like windows your gonna just code everything in ansi C even your userintefaces .. good luck in the real world if you have that kind of point of view dude.
     
  17. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    malisha

    Well, that depends. Granted Win9x was easy to use, but I would not call it good in any other way. It was the ease of use that made it so popular.

    Linux has been around quite a long time, then there's the Mac systems. They just never gained the popularity on Win9x. Although personally I'm not a fan of the early versions of those systems either.

    None really serious. Only annoying small things, like constant error messages and such. On the other hand, the Unix system at uni has only ever given me one problem.

    You should give them training in modern computers. But sure, if they know nothing, give them windows. It's easy.

    Well, I haven't installed a new Linux since redhat 6.3, but I hear the Evil Entity distro is even easier to use than windows.

    Yes, okay, the tool the operators can use most effectively is best. But I would like to be sure the code created is not windows specific.

    I don't see MS as inherently "big bad monster". I see them as a company raking in billions by dishing out mass-produced crap. Exactly the same as cheap car manufacturers, the same as Taiwanese VCR makers, the same as Hollywood's endless stream of crappy movies. They work, but they're crap. I'd be quite happy with MS if they did produce an operating system superior to everything else. But so far they haven't.

    If I wanted to create an application, quickly, to run on windows machines only, I would probably use C#. However, there are two reasons why I don't do that. Firts, because I am learning the lower level WINAPI stuff, which I personally think should give me a better understanding of the system, and may give more control. It may be slower, but I think it may be worth it. Second, because I do try to write as much as I can according to global standards, and make what allowances of OS-specific stuff I must. For example, the application I am writing now is to run on a friend's windows machine. I'm writing everything in standard C++; the only concession to non-standard code is the interface, which is winapi.

    In short:
    - I'd be very happy with an MS OS if it was seriously good.
    - I don't use company-specific code if I can help it because there are many examples of company-specific engineering creating sub-standard ISAs.
    - I might use C# or VB or such if I was in a hurry and preferred speed over quality, but that is unlikely.
     
  18. Bachus Registered Senior Member

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    They are trying to do that. Xserv for example

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    Besides nowadays youreally don't need that much knowledge on computers to succesfully install linux. I think if linux had more big software (games and such) it would appeal more to people.
     
  19. malisha Registered Senior Member

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    Which is why you should know that the bmw's, mercedes, rolls royces & audi's will never be repalced with the toyota's kia's and all the other mainstream crappier stuff, there will always be a market for the higher end stuff, do you get what i mean ?

    Which is good, go for it learn the lower level stuff , thats why using linux is good becayse there is a shitload of things u learn when using it, use the winapi to create your gui's but once you have done it once, and you get whats happening why do it again the same slow way, use the better method, i was exactly the same at uni as well, always had to do things the hardway just to understand whats what, but once u get it you just cant be stuffed doing it the slow way.

    Which is good, because that way your code can be ported much more easier, no harm in that, u know what we use at work, we use motif and use an xserver that runs in windows on the local machine to serv the user interface back onto the local machine using an xclient (exceed) if you have ever heard of it, so that if the gui needs to run on a unix machine it requires almost no more re-work, because motif was originally designed for unix, yet can run on windows provided you supply the xserver and xclient.

    Why then are we using a windows workstation with an xserver running on it, because the operators feel more confortable with it, they dont need training in using windows and that saves us time and money.

    basically what im saying is we gotta quit this tossy attitude of running into a thread with guns blazing and the anti microsoft flag lifted high everytime someone asks about .dot net or mfc or what ever because the truth is there is good reason why someone might want to use it.


    Do it this way, its good at uni i did the same, had to know why something was the way it was... but after a while once u get how something works you just want to be able to get that out of the way quick and learn something new. Imagine having to make an app with lots of windows, do you really want to be coding the gui from first principles or do you just want to get that out of the way quick and get into the more beefy meatty parts of the application which do require more thinking ?

    Once you have done the slow way over and over again you start to ask yourself, there must be a faster way to do this, then you'll see things more clearly.

    anyway its been a fun discussion ....
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2003
  20. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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  21. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    malisha

    Fair enough.

    I actually plan to make my own windows coding functions to clean it up a lot, my own stuff based on the winapi.

    Last time I was in the computer books shop, more than half the coding books were some form of .net. Again, MS is flooding the market. It worked with windows. I'm hoping it doesn't work with .net.

    Perhaps. This is why I intend to create my own windows code. All I'll need to do is paste in huge chunks of my own stuff.
     
  22. andeity Registered Senior Member

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    but wasn't Java based off of C++, originally?
     
  23. andeity Registered Senior Member

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    Perhaps microsoft coding is crap, but if dot net is the best thing out there, we might as well use it, right?
     
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