Alert NEWS:COLUMBIA BREAKS UP!

[Cthulhu]

Just heard the news. Rescue teams are on the way. NASA TV has some details.

[Eli Z]

DAMN! DAMN! DAMN!

[Brad Rules]

The first Israeli to ever board a space shuttle and the Arab islamic fundamentalists blow it up. And they wonder why we hate them so much.

[Adam]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/01/shuttle.landing.ap/index.html

[seesaw]

This is a sad day, and it's a shame.

I have a question; I was wondering when the new space shuttle/craft that nasa is making going to done.

[Bachus]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Just heard the news. Rescue teams are on the way. NASA TV has some details.

From what i understand their not sure it's crashing :confused:
They just don't have any communications and something fell of :eek:

[seesaw]

Yeah but there is video of it coming down, and it doesn't look good. It looks like it's breaking up. :(

[qfrontier]

Listen idiot, im not an arab, Im a New Yorker born American. How do you know arabs blew it up? Do you work in the CIA or FBI? Were you there physically looking at an arab blowing up the space shuttle? NASA as well as the US Government knows that with pricks and shit heads like you in US, it'll make it all the more easier for US to go to war with IRAQ, cuz idiots like you are the ones who'll be giving the vote to Bush to go to war! Without knowing the facts and the situation, dont start talking shit about other races. I wouldn't be surprised if one of those FBI spokespersons or Collin Powell release news about something to do with middle east possibly regarding this situation...



Live in peace

[spookz]

well if it aint the arabs, it must be the fbi that blew it up. i personally think it was dem damn texans who brought it down!

[qfrontier]

I suspect that NOMAD is near that place, maybe it had something to do with all this

[moonman]

Watching it right now.

[Cthulhu]

I'm afraid it's confirmed.

http://news.yahoo.com/

This will either kill the space program or force us to use nuclear power. Big fireworks are too bloody unpredictable. Reactors run for years without incident. No oxydiser to turn your vehicle into a funeral pyre. I think this will be a repeat of Challenger though. Will kill the space age atleast for a decade.
JFK wanted the ROVER program instead of Apollo. He was right. The Golden Goose was never well designed. They built it to do everything and so it does nothing well. The rest of the Shuttle fleet will be mothballed now.

I'm going to have a drink and maybe a cry.

[Persol]

This will not force us to use nuclear power on the shuttle... if anything it would force us to avoid it. Currently the shuttle lands with very little fuel because the final glide is, by definition, unpowered. This was probably caused by localized heat buildup which then caused a failure. If nuclear materials were onboard this would be a dangerous situation for people living between texas and florida.

[Adam]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/01/shuttle.columbia/index.html

[Redoubtable]

1)News Link (http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=94225720-6CEB-48D5-B75C950C664FA1A7) VOA News

2)News Link (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/5083127.htm) Miami Herald

3)News Link (http://www.canada.com/news/story.asp?id=3779ABDE-B970-47B7-8EEE-BB90883C898E) News-Canada

4)News Link (http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories/breaking/1044085338.shtml) DesertSun

5)News Link (http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/content/news/ap_story.html/Science/AP.V2460.AP-Space-Shuttle.html) SpringfieldNewsSun

6)News Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10088-2003Feb1.html) Washington Post

Just after the triumphant State of the Union Adress, how saddening.:(

[spookz]

there are 3 people up in space. i hardly think flights will be cancelled

http://microgravity.grc.nasa.gov/sts-107/images/sts107_crew2.jpg

STS-107 is a multi-discipline microgravity and Earth science research mission with a multitude of international scientific investigations conducted continuously during the planned 16 days on orbit. The central element of the patch is the microgravity symbol, µg, flowing into the rays of the astronaut symbol. The mission inclination is portrayed by the 39-degree angle of the astronaut symbol to the Earth's horizon. The sunrise is representative of the numerous experiments that are the dawn of a new era for continued microgravity research on the International Space Station and beyond. The breadth of science conducted on this mission will have widespread benefits to life on Earth and our continued exploration of space illustrated by the Earth and stars. The constellation Columba (the dove) was chosen to symbolize peace on Earth and the Space Shuttle Columbia. The seven stars also represent the mission crew members and honor the original astronauts who paved the way to make research in space possible. The Israeli flag is adjacent to the name of the payload specialist who is the first person from that country to fly on the Space Shuttle.

rip

:(

[spacemanspiff]

is there anything confirmed beyond loss of contact and debris falling?

[ElectricFetus]

I don't think NASA is dead form this... this is not a bad as Challenger! They still have 3 other shuttles and people on ISS to transport off. What are they going to do with the ISS crew? Force them to abandon ship on the Soyuz escape capsules? Those things have a fight history that is not as good as the shuttles by the way.

[Cthulhu]

You don't understand. A reactor powered rocket could carry atleast 5 times the payload easy. That equates to a more robust vehicle. Not a tinfoil deathtrap using superlight alloys in place of the best alloys. It means using the best rather than lightest safety systems and more of them. More power means more safety. Reactors don't blow up unless they have a critical meltdown and modern designs have excellent failsafes. Even the old plants have been running for over 40 years. Hundreds of them.

I agree with you about it not happening though. The luddites will be jumping up and down with glee. The nuclear initiative might be dead. It will die along with the space programme.

I hope it was terrorists. Dead is dead whatever the cause but if foul play is involved then Bush will revive the Space program with a vengeance. Simply as an act of defiance.

[Persol]

Confired:
Lost of Contact
Debris
NASA flags at half-staff
The accident was unsurvivable

Any causes are currently just guesses.

[Redoubtable]

The luddites will be jumping up and down with glee. The nuclear initiative might be dead. It will die along with the space programme.

Oh God, I hope you're right . . . I do not relish the thought of some kind of perverse luddite repression of technological progress.

[Cthulhu]

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/images/02/01/txtop.shuttle.columbia33.jpg

The space shuttle Columbia, with seven astronauts aboard, broke up as it descended over central Texas today before a planned landing at Kennedy Space Center in Florida. A Bush administration spokesman said the shuttle's altitude -- over 200,000 feet -- made it "highly unlikely" that the shuttle fell victim to a terrorist act.

There is no remaining doubt. The shuttle fleet just became 25% smaller.

[ElectricFetus]

I don’t think they will ever find any evidence of terrorist attack. Though with a Israeli and India on board it makes you a little suspicious. Our best hope now is that some terrorist group claims responsibility some how.

[Persol]

A reactor powered rocket could carry atleast 5 times the payload easy
After takeoff very little fuel is used. A nuclear reactor would still need the current rocket boosters/tank during takeoff. They can provide thrust for a very long time, but not enough force to obtain orbit.

[sycoindian]

any particular reasons given for this yet?

[Redoubtable]

Well, that crew must surely have died quickly. They were chugging along at a mere 12,500 miles per hour at 200, 000 feet . . . just enough to kill, don't you agree?

[ElectricFetus]

I totally disagree with NERVA like engines lunching vehicles form Earth to LEO. Nuclear propulsion in LEO and beyond is ok, because contaminants won't make it to the earth. The future is in nuclear power plasma propulsion for deep space… but for here it would be more and better, cheaper and SAFER reusable vehicles. Like the one-stage-to-orbit project that was canceled or the hypersonic jet that has yet to even come of the drawing board in the last 30 years of its development.

[Cthulhu]

"A nuclear reactor would still need the current rocket boosters/tank during takeoff."

Why, because they couldn't get sufficient thrust from a NERVA back in the 70's? They were still experimenting with graphite rods back then. With Isp of nearly 900 seconds they had to keep thrust down to avoid melting the engine. With todays VASIMR plasma technology applied it could be done. An air-breathing reactor rocket would work too. A nuclear ramjet for the atmospheric stage to orbit would be 10 times better than big fireworks.

[Redoubtable]

By the by, they're now claiming that the debris might be hazardous . . . Yeah right!
They just don't want hordes of Texan locals swarming over the ruins and filching all the molten metal as curious souvenirs!:p

[ElectricFetus]

Originally posted by Redoubtable
Well, that crew must surely have died quickly. They were chugging along at a mere 12,500 miles per hour at 200, 000 feet . . . just enough to kill, don't you agree?

I would say just enough to vaporize!

[Cthulhu]

We'll have to wait for the black box flight recorder to be found if it survived the crash. Nasa lost all communication prior to the crash so thats the only place we'll find answers.

[BloodSuckingGerbile]

I have a strange feeling that this was another terroristic act by a f*cking Islamic organization. The last explosion of a space shuttle was in 1986 and this one had an Israeli aboard... hmm..

If it's confirmed, it will surely shut up "proud Muslims" like Green World.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

I want to kill someone!!!!!!!

[ElectricFetus]

Cthulhu

You don’t understand those nuclear rockets are open air reactors… people would go ape shit if one was used today… start suing NASA for their lung cancer, who knows what! It just not a option to have nuclear propulsion like that! Come on they can’t even get a new age particle reactor to the states because of citizen objection to the any technology involving something with the words “Radioactive” “Nuclear” or “uranium or plutonium”

[Rick]

Terrible break up has happened.Columbia has gone down...

:(


bye!

[zanket]

Sad... A bit prophetic it broke up over Texas with an Israeli on board.

[Cthulhu]

"...people would go ape shit if one was used today..."

I know. Please point out where I have claimed otherwise. I did in fact say this a few posts back. The concept is superior and should have been implemented instead of big dumb boosters for the moon landings but yes, the public will be unlikely to think beyond "WAAH! NUCLEAR!". I started the NS movement. I'm fully aware of public sentiments and the political climate.

Still, they might be amenable. It's a slim possibility but a real one.

[zanket]

Cthulhu - there's no black box on the shuttle.

[ElectricFetus]

Originally posted by BloodSuckingGerbile
I have a strange feeling that this was another terroristic act by a f*cking Islamic organization. The last explosion of a space shuttle was in 1986 and this one had an Israeli aboard... hmm..

If it's confirmed, it will surely shut up "proud Muslims" like Green World.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

I want to kill someone!!!!!!!

Woooooo Killer calm down! It a hopeful probability that some Muslim pulled some heat tiles off but without proof or any crazed group admitting to it I don't think anyone will ever really believe that it was a terrorist attack. Also Green_world has been band! :D

[Persol]

Cthulhu,
I think you are missing the point. You are making the system more complicated with no noticable benefit to a LOE mission. For the VASIMR engine you need a nuclear reactor to power it. In an accident this would be 'messy'. Not to mention the amount of EM polution this thing pumps out which would interfere with communication. Plus I haven't heard of the VASIMR engine being used in takeoff. It is usually referenced in regards to planetary mission.
As for the ramjet, you still need to get up to speed, and would need boosters.

A nuclear ramjet for the atmospheric stage to orbit would be 10 times better than big fireworks.
Please elaborate on the nuclear ramjet... would it still need another method to get to speed?

[corewarp]

HOUSTON, Texas (CNN) -- The space shuttle Columbia, with seven astronauts aboard, broke up as it descended over central Texas Saturday toward a planned landing at Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/01/shuttle.columbia/index.html

[BloodSuckingGerbile]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
Also Green_world has been band! :D

Cool :cool:

[Firefly]

Adam - thanks for the links.

BloodSuckingGerbile - In one of them it said at the height it was at, it seems unlikely to have been a terrorist related incident.

[Firefly]

There's already two threads about this. :p

[ElectricFetus]

VASIMR! Hahahaha that is one of those touch-pushy kind of engines it can't do any better then 200N and you would need 1,000,000N to get a rocket off the earth. VASIMR was planed for LEO to LMO (low Martian orbit) and back not for landings it just does not have enough thrust!

[Redoubtable]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
I would say just enough to vaporize!

I was being facetious, man!

[spookz]

this shit is starting to sink in and i am really starting to feel sad. what a fucking way to wake up!

:(

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

:mad:

they need to stop with all their futile(and, yes..i did say futile attempts) to conquer space. it'll never happen. they (nasa) are just wasting alot of money (ours) and lives. grrrrr

[zanket]

Some of the U.S./Israeli debris landed in Palestine, Texas. Oh, if only Bush could put the signs together!

[Congrats]

Well....I have not posted on sciforums for about 6 months...but has anyone else heard anything in the past ten minutes about the space shuttle Columbia exploding over Texas? I believe it was the first flight of an Israeli astronaut...

Just feel a bit shocked, and any new info is definately welcome!

[Persol]

Nasa did have talk of scaling up VASIMR engines, but I didn't see anything that would be used for takeoff. Nasa is politically smart enough not to use a nuclear engine in takeoff. A nuclear battery they've used... but not an engine...

[Congrats]

The shuttles are just too old. NASA has botched every attempt for a cost-efficient replacement, so I suppose this should be the fate of each of them, one by one.

[Avatar]

I think that all the terrorist talk is BS
for the government it is more convenient to say that it's a terrorist attack
America always seeks for an outer enemy, and now they probably won't give more funding to NASA for developing new shuttles, but instead will close the perimeter with a tank division for "security" reasons
will be cheaper and look better
people will like it
government has even more support to fight the "terrorists"

[Persol]

Third time's a charm ;)

[zanket]

The Bush administration has already agreed it's not terrorism. However, expect them to say "it's not terrorism" over and over again.

[Redoubtable]

Actually, an impressive yet all together ineffectual tank barricade is exactly what they will probably do . . .

[Persol]

for the government it is more convenient to say that it's a terrorist attack The government has stated that a terrorist attack is VERY unlikely. We don't have anything that could hit them all the way up there, at that speed... let alone terrorists. It would've had to been done on the ground, and the effect would have probably been seen during takeoff (or the 16 days in space).

Current leading theories are:
wing damaged during takeoff
heat failure
hit by orbiting debri

[Cthulhu]

"VASIMR! Hahahaha that is one of those touch-pushy kind of engines "

Yeah, it would take about 3 reactors to power a VASIMR engine for a Mars mission. That's not what I meant. The big advance with the VASIMR drive was discovering how to contain plasma temperatures. This same technology could be used for a hybrid NTR/PLASMA engine. Temperature was always the main obstacle to gaining thrust. There are many ways of getting the required thrust from nuclear power. The real arguement is radiation. The exhaust radiation from Nerva was minimal. The nozzles were pointed straight up because the levels were simply negligible.

[ElectricFetus]

they claims something fell off doing take off!!! I just heard it on the news what was it?!?

[Redoubtable]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus:
Also Green_world has been band!

Too bad . . . we should have a thread called "Green_World's Sciforum Funeral: Retinere in Memoria: A Great Islamic Warrior"

We can all feign grief and carry his "coffin" to his "grave" with emotes like *Kicks ugly tombstone down into grave*

[Persol]

they claims something fell off doing take off!!! I just heard it on the news what was it?!? A piece of insulation hit the wing during takeoff... but they looked at it in orbit and said the wing was fine. We'll just have to wait and see..

[ElectricFetus]

Originally posted by Redoubtable
Too bad . . . we should have a thread called "Green_World's Sciforum Funeral: Retinere in Memoria: A Great Islamic Warrior"

We can all feign grief and carry his "coffin" to his "grave" with emotes like *Kicks ugly tombstone down into grave*

Dam right! I'm going to make one thats a great Idea!

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16743

[Coldrake]

Originally posted by Congrats
Well....I have not posted on sciforums for about 6 months...but has anyone else heard anything in the past ten minutes about the space shuttle Columbia exploding over Texas? I believe it was the first flight of an Israeli astronaut...

Just feel a bit shocked, and any new info is definately welcome!

Don't think it exploded, but rather broke apart apparently. I talked to a friend who has worked with the shuttle program for about 20 years and he said that there is no fuel on the shuttle when it re-enters the atmosphere; that they glide in. Columbia should have been structurally sound, however. This was its 28th flight and the shuttles are built for a life span of around 100 missions. They did show a pic of something coming off the nose of the booster (ice?) during launch and hitting the left wing of the shuttle. NASA said, however, that this was not a problem, so I don't know. CNN hasn't shown anything new for the last couple of hours, which is now about 3 hours after communication was lost.

CNN is showing pieces of Columbia in fields in the Dallas area, and a piece in some small town. Very tragic.

[Persol]

Don't think it exploded, but rather broke apart apparently. While there is no fuel explosion is still possible. (Oxygen+heat=boom)

However you are correct that structural failure/damage is more likely.

[Qiothus II]

I don't think it was terrorism at all. The security was airtight (literally) and if something had fallen off at takeoff, it was probably a tile on the wing. If a tile on the wing was gone during reentry going at mach 6 it is very possible that the heat would have seriously impared the shuttle. Plus, if enough tiles were ripped apart, the temperature on the inside of the craft would have gone up dramatically. I really hate the ide of people being burned alive. But what I hate more is that this couldn't have happened at a worse time. War with the middle east and terrorism and America being looked at as incompetant because a lot of stupid addresses by the president. (or what I think were stupid because he is a moron) I don't like this one bit. The US keeps having bad shit happen and I think that this is going to turn out very bad in the end.

All that from a shuttle crash? No, but I am deeply sadend and nothing seems to be going in the right direction--we keep facing tragedy after tragedy. Childish as this may seem, I really wish this had never happened; I wish the shuttle had just landed normally and this would have been a shuttle landing thread.

[Congrats]

Shuttle landing thread...?

The problem with the shuttles are that they have become routine yet not efficient, or frequent. They go up every once in a while and most of us could just care less.

[ElectricFetus]

Originally posted by Qiothus II
I don't think it was terrorism at all. The security was airtight (literally) and if something had fallen off at takeoff, it was probably a tile on the wing. If a tile on the wing was gone during reentry going at mach 6 it is very possible that the heat would have seriously impared the shuttle. Plus, if enough tiles were ripped apart, the temperature on the inside of the craft would have gone up dramatically. I really hate the ide of people being burned alive. But what I hate more is that this couldn't have happened at a worse time. War with the middle east and terrorism and America being looked at as incompetant because a lot of stupid addresses by the president. (or what I think were stupid because he is a moron) I don't like this one bit. The US keeps having bad shit happen and I think that this is going to turn out very bad in the end.

All that from a shuttle crash? No, but I am deeply sadend and nothing seems to be going in the right direction--we keep facing tragedy after tragedy. Childish as this may seem, I really wish this had never happened; I wish the shuttle had just landed normally and this would have been a shuttle landing thread.

Amen!!! :( :( :(

[Microzoft]

Originally posted by Brad Rules
The first Israeli to ever board a space shuttle and the Arab islamic fundamentalists blow it up. And they wonder why we hate them so much. Is it really, really necessary?:mad:

[Persol]

Is it really, really necessary? Ditto.
::Persol sniffs the troll::

[Microzoft]

Originally posted by BloodSuckingGerbile
I have a strange feeling that this was another terroristic act by a f*cking Islamic organization. The last explosion of a space shuttle was in 1986 and this one had an Israeli aboard... hmm..

If it's confirmed, it will surely shut up "proud Muslims" like Green World.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

I want to kill someone!!!!!!! It appears that on coincidental human or machine errors, and the coincidences that an Israeli is on board, is enough gunpowder for radicals to start airing their extremist opinions to the point that it doesn’t really matter the true outcome. Some have already made their minds regardless of anything.
Would their closed minds ever accept the truth?
:rolleyes: If we don’t have terrorist, let’s fabricate them, right?

[Tiassa]

All I can think of right now is the fact that I saw episode 1F13, "Deep Space Homer" on our local syndicated broadcast of The Simpsons last night. Over and over again in my head, I think of an inanimate carbon rod, and Buzz Aldrin humming "Glory, Glory Hallelujah!" as the shuttle streamed toward earth.

I looked up at the sky a few minutes ago. The veil of clouds was punctuated by a single, small patch of blue. Most appropriate, this hole in the sky.

Lord, here comes the flood
When we must say goodbye to flesh and blood
In the end, when the seas are silent
If any are still alive
It'll be those that gave their island to survive.
Drink up, dreamers, you're running dry.

I will be in my corner, smoking.

:(,
Tiassa :cool:

[CounslerCoffee]

I saw that ep last night to Tiassa!

I doubt that it was terrorism, I just wonder how Bush will link it to Usama, or Saddam. Does anyone know if he's going to make a speech?

[Hannibal]

Fucking Jesus Christ, this is unbelievable. We spend like trillions of dollars figuring out ways to annihilate each other but we can’t spare the money to build a nuclear rocket. Now this crash is going to set a mars landing back a few decades. I hate humanity. :(

[Vortexx]

Picture the following events:

The space-shuttle maybe flew against some small piece of old space junk or even a small micro-meteorite. Not serious enough to get noticed by the crew, but bad enough to crack up a few tiles at the wrong place....

Now if the crew had a system to monitor the integrity of all the tiles they could in low earth orbit do replace some tiles / repair etc....

That's why I propose a matrix of heat resistand glass fiber thru the tiles, connected to a computer, if somehow a tile gets damaged some glass wires will be broken, the computer will alert and pinpoint the location. Repairs can be done before reentering the atmosphere.....

[CounslerCoffee]

they need to stop with all their futile(and, yes..i did say futile attempts) to conquer space. it'll never happen. they (nasa) are just wasting alot of money (ours) and lives. grrrrr

I wouldn't consider it a waste of money. NASA experiments have led to the creation of many new drugs, inventions (Like thermal blankets) and such. It's actually helped us a great deal, we aren't conquering space, were exploring it. Finding out the limitless things that we could learn from whats out there...

Space is where man is heading, its inevitable. We have to go somewhere, because thats where all the answers are. "Where are we from?" or "Where are we going?" or "Is there someone else out there?" Are all questions that will be answered when we finally begin to explore. To back down now, is foolish.

[ElectricFetus]

Originally posted by Vortexx
That's why I propose a matrix of heat resistand glass fiber thru the tiles, connected to a computer, if somehow a tile gets damaged some glass wires will be broken, the computer will alert and pinpoint the location. Repairs can be done before reentering the atmosphere.....

In the new one maybe :) they have been working on it for years why is it not out and running yet... oh wait I remember they lack the money. If NASA had more money so deal wit problems like these more effectively this would not have happened!

[CounslerCoffee]

The first Israeli to ever board a space shuttle and the Arab islamic fundamentalists blow it up. And they wonder why we hate them so much

Come on! I mean seriously? No no, your right. It could never be an Americans fault, or a fault in American design. We're frelling infaluble. God ain't got crap on us. It's never our fault, so let's blame the one person on the ship that was different. Yes, that will work. We can keep doing it again and again and again, until we have nobody left to blame but ourselves.

Brad Rules, I commend you for that dumb comment. And also, I would like to thank you for having nothing better to do then blame other people for ACCIDENTS.

[Chagur]

They died doing what they were dedicated to! Celebrate their accomplishment!

They saw Mother Earth from LEO for sixteen days before expiring!

How many of us will go to our graves having fulfilled a dream?

Here's to those who dared! Shalom ...

:(

[Microzoft]

Originally posted by Chagur
They died doing what they were dedicated to! Celebrate their accomplishment!

They saw Mother Earth from LEO for sixteen days before expiring!

How many of us will go to our graves having fulfilled a dream?

Here's to those who dared! Shalom ...

:( Thousands die every day, some defending rights, some attacking rights, some in humanitarian endeavors, some of hunger and some on wealth.
We are accustomed to go on not looking back.
Many will have had fulfilled many dreams before departing and many others will depart without a dream.
Many dared for sciences but many more for humankind.
I see it as nothing but a tragedy, a tragedy like the many, many more we just let go by.
Let us no dramatize or cosmetically capitalize on one more tragedy like the thousands that we have.
shalom.

[ElectricFetus]

Shalom to all the real heroes of the world: people who have fought and died to benefit the human race as a whole.

So who is herbew here?
Referring to "Shalom"

[-iLluSiON-]

I surely hope that the Moslim Extremists don't claim this to be an 'act of Allah'...

[Vortexx]

Don't worry, sharon will send some attack helicopters to Gaza to punish some innocent civilians if the extremists claim responsibillity....

[Microzoft]

Originally posted by -iLluSiON-
I surely hope that the Moslim Extremists don't claim this to be an 'act of Allah'... I have a feeling that some radicals (Muslim or not Muslims) may claim credit to this tragedy. They have done that in the past on other tragedies and we have conveniently believed them. Some how, we may not be so willing to believe them on this, or would we?:m:

[spookz]

my car
flat tire
i suspect arab terrorists

[ElectricFetus]

Muslims have now become synonymies with “Gremlins” and “Gnomes” here in the western world! When something goes wrong blame them!

[Virgin]

The masses always follow the Chief!
We follow commercials without bothering about the truth, great majority are
Hypnotized by what politicians and media says without bothering to countercheck it
So, are there any surprises here?
:m:

[blobrana]

My heart goes out to all those left behind.

This is a tragic week for nasa in general;
Three Apollo 1 astronauts died in a launch-pad fire during tests on Jan. 27, 1967.

The Challenger explosion, which killed seven astronauts, was on Jan. 28, 1986.

Columbia was NASA's oldest shuttle,inaugurated in flight on April 12, 1981, and had flown 28(?) times in space.

i think that we should always remember that space-exploration is always going to be a risky. i believe that a risk factor of 1 in 200 launches (ending in disaster), was carried out by NASA.

But i for one believe that this only strengthens our hearts to the challenges still to be faced in space exploration.

[Eli Z]

Is there a black box on the shuttle?

Does anyone has a link for the official answer, not what people think?

[blobrana]

The black-box is mission control.

All the data has been saved, and will be looked at to find out the reason why NASA's oldest shuttle, Columbia (first flight on April 12, 1981, and flown 27 times in space.), broke up...

Nasa`s calculated risk factor for the space-shuttle mission life-time was 1 in 200...

[CounslerCoffee]

Blobrana, the space shuttle does have a black box. Mission control lost contact with them, they dont have anything recorded. We can only hope that they find the black box so that we can find out what really happend.

*EDIT*At 9 a.m., Mission Control abruptly lost all data and voice contact with the shuttle and crew. At the same time, residents of Texas, Arkansas and Louisiana reported hearing ``a big bang'' and seeing flames in the sky.

The final radio transmission between Mission Control and the shuttle gave no indication of any trouble.

Mission Control radioed: ``Columbia, Houston, we see your tire pressure messages and we did not copy your last.''

Columbia's commander, Rick Husband, calmly responds: ``Roger, buh.''

Then the transmission goes silent for several seconds, followed by static.

[Microzoft]

Originally posted by Eli Z
Is there a black box on the shuttle?

Does anyone has a link for the official answer, not what people think? Yes, there numerous so called black boxes, not exactly as we understand it on conventional airplanes but in the form of data loggers. The data collected is later used in assessing and implementing the maintenance program as well as helping
for improvements and enhancements that may be required in future missions. If something technical, material fatigue, etc. was the cause, it will be recorded.
Another thing is, if the encasing of the data loggers have survived the accident.
:m:

[Persol]

These 'black boxes' are simply hard drives. There is no way they would have survived failing thru the atmosphere from 200k. They are designed for diagnostics... not situations like this.

[Persol]

Just found this
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/TECH/space/02/01/shuttle.columbia/story.nws.track2.jpg
It's a thermal image of the 'descent'.

and another problem with those who keep saying 'go nuclear' (besides that it wouldn't have helped)
http://www.nuclearspace.com/a_emp_effects_orion.htm

[DannyBhoy]

Personally, I find conspiracy theorists to be of sick minds and souls. And the rcist and religious intolerance innuendo by some posters are just lame.

Concerning the tragedy, I am really saddened. I hope NASA would scale back their Manned Space Missions, and use their budget sensibly, for cheap research and unmanned missions. Maybe they can send more space probes, or a better Orbiting Space Telescope. Sending people on dangerous missions that can be done by unmanned vehicles is just stupid. It's hubris.

I don't really care for the Shuttle Missions or the ISS. They're just draining money and talented people away from genuine scientific research. Most of the experiments they've conducted on the shuttle are trivial, and those that really mattered, like monitoring clouds and pollution, can be done by cheap sattelites.

[Chagur]

No shuttle ... No ISS!

No ISS ... No dream of space!

Go for the dream!

:cool:

[ElectricFetus]

I personally believe the future of space is not for Humans of flesh and blood, but for our mechanical progeny. Homo sapiens evolved on this planet and we will most likely go extinct here as well. Existence in space is much easier for creatures that don’t need water, O2, set temps ranging between 20-25C, and a constant supply for organic compounds. Robots and will conquers space not us. If you want to travel across space would it not be cheaper if all you had to transport is the digitally transmitted data of your memories personality and soul? The human body is a waste, a dead end of evolution it, cannot extend thought and existence any forth now it is up to us to be willing to evolve beyond this form and the desires of the flesh.

Jesus I got to stop watching “Serial experiment: Lain” while :m: !!!

[Cthulhu]

Thats crap. Men will walk on other planets just as the Apollo astronauts reached the moon. We just need to use nuclear power. If we don't keep reaching outwards we will lose that drive to explore and die out as a species. There is only growth and death. Organisms choose their fate.

Is there any way a determined terrorist organisation could have attacked the Columbia. I'm aware of the details of the incident to date. No missile could have reached it from the ground. Too high and fast. Even if that plane spotted nearby had launched a missile into the oncoming direction of the shuttle it would have been out of range. We shouldn't underestimate fundamentalist extremists though. These sicko's would find a way if it existed. So is it theoretically possible? Perhaps thinking outside of the square.

Was there even a plane as eye witnesses claim? Surely it would have been spotted on radar.

[ElectricFetus]

No it’s my belief that by the year 3000 the only people left on earth will be those fundamentalis! The rest of use will have evolved and live in a internet that spans light years! Homo sapiens are to lazy and greedy get up into space. We could have been to Mars already! Estimates place it at only $50 billion that’s nothing compared to the Worlds 1 trillion a year on military! People see nothing useful in space only hard work! Robots, Cyborgs and technologist will see space as a refugee from the talking monkeys.

[RichardJA]

DannyBhoy, why stop just because of this? Seven people died, nothing compared to how many die each year in plane crashes or car crashes. Also I think if you asked these seven people do they want you to stop man going into space because of their deaths, they would say no.

I also don't think this will in anyway slow down the race to mars, I expect to see china their within a decade.

Wonder how long before people move away from trying to place the blame on terrorists and place it on aliens:D

[Persol]

Thats crap. Men will walk on other planets just as the Apollo astronauts reached the moon. That all fine and good... but the benefit of sending people to other planets is currently less then the cost. It would make much more sense to finish the ISS first, then the moon, then beyond.
I personally will not pay my tax dollars for a mission which is dangerous, expensive, and little reward. For the present probes make more sense.

[ElectricFetus]

Like I said above!

[DannyBhoy]

Originally posted by RichardJA
DannyBhoy, why stop just because of this? Seven people died, nothing compared to how many die each year in plane crashes or car crashes. Also I think if you asked these seven people do they want you to stop man going into space because of their deaths, they would say no.

I also don't think this will in anyway slow down the race to mars, I expect to see china their within a decade.

Wonder how long before people move away from trying to place the blame on terrorists and place it on aliens:D The comment is with the Manned Space Program in general, read my first post. Safety is important, but my main concern is that the manned missions are draining valuable research money and talented people from genuine science to, what has always been admitted even on this board, frivolous research programs with little scientific merit. It's a publicity stunt, and judging from the reaction from this board, they've largely succeeded.

The manned shuttle missions, the ISS, they are a waste of money. NASA ought to start to forgo them in favor of cheaper missions using unmanned probes. A single shuttle mission budget could be better used for several real, genuine research programs with inexpensive probes and sattelites. And let's not forget the total waste of money that is the ISS.

If you haven't, I suggest you read Robert Park's book Voodoo Science to have an idea of how useless shuttle mission research is compared to unmanned probe research.

[ElectricFetus]

what about getting people off the planet though? there are may good reasons to do this

1. Start a new society that with advanced technology and advanced sociology could become a utopia

2.Human colony in space could survive even if something horrible happened to the earth.

Since both of the above are very unlikely I will just go with this one: Did you not ever dream of going into space when you were a child? It part of mans desire to place foot steps were no man has ever walked before. Don’t you feel the excitement and power of being on Mars?

[DannyBhoy]

I had those dreams, and there seems to be nothing wrong with the idea of Man exploring space. But is it feasible right now? Or the near future? Maybe not. We're stuck just outside Earth, and the Moon which isn't really that far away, astronomically speaking. We have to start with research if we ever want our dreams to come to fruition. We have our heads up on the clouds, only to forget that there are still a lot of problems down here. Let's not jump the gun and dream of Galaxy conquest when we haven't even conquered AIDS.

I'm only asking for sensible scientific research, not grandiose stuff that will consume all the budget allocated to science. Think of the amount of money that could've been given to scientific grants for sensible research, that is instead wasted on the ISS. It's really criminal if you think about it.

[ElectricFetus]

I think we will be ready for mars by 2020! If only we would have the fund to be there that is! If anything needs to be cut it is not NASA... try the Military they get most of are money anyways!!!

[Dwayne D.L.Rabon]

Well people the space shuttle crash does look a little strange.
For one the name of the shuttle that was destroyed. going on the loss of any space craft capable of placing equipment in space, and allowing reseach and discovery of meathods for sustaining gases around the earth in the upcoming magnetic pole swtich. as every resouce it seems will be nessacary to the completeion of that task and seeing the earth safly restored through the pole reversal. Plainly it was a loss that we can not afford, not just the united states has loss here but the entire human race. Such a loss at a time when direct attention by leaders is not on issues of great importance as the pole switch leaves the future of human race in a difficult postion. like wise regardless of terrorism we do not have time for war or terrorism given the condtion of the earths magnetic poles and the dangers that it presents to the world.
As for the actual event of the destrution of the spaceship, the shuttle was about 40 mile up in the atmosphere in the tropopause, where the atmosphere is mainly nitrogen which is a inert gas, with the highest exspansion rate of any gas, here the shuttle can not burn as it has nooxygen to burn, and little friction to cause heat as the gas nitrogen is pushed away from a heat source as it exspans. here we see that and structual problem would have to be one of gravitys influence,and that ineraction with the atmosohere and the craft. the fact that thermal energy form reenrty pushes the nitrogen atmosphere away from the ship demonstrates that the friction had liitle influnce, and that it would not be a heat source from friction that was the cause of the destruction of the ship, this means that the source of the disater was one that was internal, or by plot, however it is possible that the rentry for the shuttle pushed a enormous amount of nitrogen way from the renerty path and that oxygen from the lower atmosphere filled the cavity of atmosohere in the tropopause causing the shuttle to heat up greatly causing some problem. even under this event the shuttle is desigen to with stand such temptures in reentry, even with out its protective tiles. the fact that the shuttle was inb the nitrogen rich tropopause says that any heat in the area of the shuttle would be raipdly sped away by the nitrogen and the vaccum created. in order for a stream of oxyegen to cause sever damage tio waould have to be heated to some 10,000 degrees. where it becomes explosive. rapid oxidation causing a event of corrosion is not a issue due to the projecting heat source such oxidation would have to wait untill the shuttle cooled down.
Plainly this means that the shuttle disater was one that was not caused by atmospheric condtions, and was one that was internal or the event of plot. what happend was a explsion and then breal up of the shuttle, not just a mere breakup, it the shuttle was with out explosion meaning destroyed by veloicty the craft would have broken up in large pieces with out the event of fire ect.... plainly the shuttle carries no fuel during reentry as it is a glider, even small amount of fuel would not be suffcient to cause total serpration of the craft. this means there is no agent aboard the ship or atmospheric agent to cause the observed exsplosion and serperation of the shutlle. when looking at the type of force that could cause such a explosion and seperation there reamins only the compression of the chambers within the shuttle, known as atmosphereic compression used to sustain life on the shuttle. meaning that the cause of the destruction of the shuttle was exspansion of internal gases used for life support, here in this system atmosphereic preesure is a simulation of eathr atmosphere at some 14 pound per square inch. by some means most likly heat the pressure was increased to such a exsent that it seperated the housing of the space shuttle causeing for waht appears as a fire explosion. but is accutally a compression explosion. this is clear in the event that nitrogen is inert to have a exsplosion you need oxygen. the break up of the shuttle in first stage would cause the shuttle to slow down enough and dispait heat enough to gain friction and then burn causing the observed fire.
the question in this case od the shuttle is what caused the compression exsplosion, heat, a failure to decompress the internal presseure, in this action if the shuttle was compresssed at 14 lbs artifically then the reentery to atmosphere would dubble that compression, heat would increase that compression per degree or temp, eventually causing a compression exsplosion. this is constitant with reentry into the tropoause as it is the tropopause that carries the weight of the atmosphere( where the weight begins again in large proprotions. is then a failure of the machinery to decompress the shuttle chambers, or was it a assination by some one at nasa, nasa should have known that the shuttle was not decompressed before rentry when the piolets suit up for reentry. in fact a suited piolet would be under compreesion that would add to the chamber compresion, that would add to the gained renrty pressure. this means that the piolets actutally sufficated on reentry, or during the course of reentry. where orginally suiting up under compression, and going into the earths atmosphere the suits decompress, the astrounatus would not have noticed the effects of compression untill reaching the tropopause. where they were sufacted and then the craft was blown apart. it may also be that the captin relized the effects of the compression on enerting the tropopause and hit a the switch for decompression and this caused a implosion and then a exsplosion.here the captin did waht was to be done prior to renerty, or by the automatic machine, where he could do this or possibly be curshed by the internal pressure, it may have been better to live with the rate of compression as this would be simulat to being in about 80 ft of water, but such aslo could very easily cause death by the bends. known as divers bends. here this event would have depended on how nasa trained its astronauts, piolets for reenrty malfunctions.

http://www.jrbasset.com/apollo/APCV12TN.JPG

DWAYNE D.L.RABON

[Jaxom]

Dwayne, please take your pseudoscience conspiracy theories elsewhere. It is not appropriate here. Fact is, space travel is dangerous, and so far we've managed to minimize those dangers. Sometimes they catch up with us.

Frictionless nitrogen. Please. :rolleyes:

[Dwayne D.L.Rabon]

Appearantly JAXOM you do not understand reentry proccess.

DWAYNE D.L.RABON

[ElectricFetus]

no you don't understand: everything you just said makes no since to basic physics and chemistry! You said so many things that are wrong on so many levels I don’t know where to begin to start correcting you!

[Jaxom]

"in the tropopause, where the atmosphere is mainly nitrogen"

Nitrogen makes up 80% of our atmosphere, not just in the troposphere.

"little friction to cause heat as the gas nitrogen is pushed away from a heat source as it exspans"

It will cause friction and thus heat at high speeds. It has nothing to do with the presence or lack of oxygen.

"even under this event the shuttle is desigen to with stand such temptures in reentry, even with out its protective tiles"

The shuttles are aluminum skinned underneath the tiles, which melts at very low temperatures. The shuttles are subjected to temperatures of 3000 degrees or so. That's why all reentry craft have something to absorb that heat.

Exactly why do you think meteors vaporize? Kinetic energy. Nitrogen, oxygen, helium...they all create friction at Mach 18.

[ElectricFetus]

sorry about that I got the wrong name there... ya Jaxom he is lack of a understanding of physics and chemistry! Why else do you think he has all those conspiracy theories because with his logic they’re the only answer! he also said more stuff thats wrong after that!

[Persol]

Dwane,
The basic idea is this:
tile is missing which forms a cavity
gas enters cavity and shears the next tile off (tile are not desinged for this)
surface heats up
structure fails either due to thermal stress of localized pressure

Problems with your theory:
fact that thermal energy form reenrty pushes the nitrogen atmosphere away from the ship When traveling that fast you can not push gas away from the ship until it 'sees' the ship. Mach 1 is based on the speed of sound, which is the speed at which the gas vibrations can transmit information. Effictevely the gas can not transmit pressure infromation to move out of the way infront of the ship. The surface will heat up (especially the edges) and this is seen on all air vehicles that travel supersonic. Nitrogen is not pushed away from the source because it can't move that fast until it hits the ship.


here the shuttle can not burn as it has nooxygen to burnNo one is saying the shuttle burned. A piece of the ship broke off or some reason. Then the ship tumbles and the rest breaks apart.

rapid oxidation causing a event of corrosion is not a issue due to the projecting heat source such oxidation would have to wait untill the shuttle cooled down. Not sure I follow what you meant, but at high temperature chemical reactions would happen FASTER between the gas and material. However the main 'corrosion' here would be caused by gas molecules slamming into the ship at a high rate of speed.

this means that the piolets actutally sufficated on reentry And yet managed to send rentry messages. Sure, they coulda been a hoax... do you believe we landed on the moon?



WellCookedFetus,
what about getting people off the planet though Getting humanity off 1 rock is all fine and good... however getting people off the planet is no use if they aren't self sufficent. Self-sufficientcy should be attempted closer to home (biosphere, ISS, moon) before attempting a trip to mars (or anywhere else). It is much cheaper to study self sustaining systems on earth. You gain nothing by trying this in space first. Add to that the fact that this risk is increased from almost nill to 1/100 failure.
I do agree with you that a base would be best suited on another planet and not the moon or in orbit. One of our biggest threats as a race (according to my friend Tyranasurus) are asteroids. Mars has minimal protection, but still better than the moon or space.

[Persol]

You beat me to the post Jaxom;)

[ElectricFetus]

Mars has the materials to be self sufficient with. Also there is that terraforming dream. Mars has water (Ice and permafrost) soil rich in everything and CO2.

I agree returning to the moon should be first! we know there is ice there lets mine it! there are caves on the moon we could build cities in.

[Jaxom]

Mars is a good long term plan, but with our tech right now it's too far away for a short term mission. We either need to do a serious space settlement or go back to the Moon. Like you said, Persol, we need to go in steps to learn how to be self sufficient. The dinosaurs had an excuse, they didn't know better.

[Persol]

Hey dwayne... found a thread which might interest you
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16781

[Rick]

I was pissed off 'cause this was supposed to be my thread.Anyways here's what i got right now...

Columbia Investigation Begins in Earnest
By Jim Banke
Senior Producer, Cape Canaveral Bureau
posted: 12:40 pm ET
02 February 2003



CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. -- As the world mourns the loss of seven astronauts, investigators are

beginning an around-the-clock effort to piece together the puzzle of why shuttle Columbia never

made it safely home on Saturday.

Much of the attention will focus on Columbia's left-hand wing, where sensor failures in the final

minutes of Columbia's flight offered the first indications that something was going wrong.

A problem during Columbia's Jan. 16 launch -- insulation fell from the shuttle's external tank

and struck the orbiter, potentially damaging the spaceplane's heat-protection tiles -- could not

be discounted as a factor in the disaster.


But officials urged restraint in letting the speculation get out of hand.

"I have to caution you that we cannot yet say what caused the loss of Columbia," shuttle program

manager Ron Dittemore said Saturday. "It's still very early in our investigation and it's going

to take us some time to work through the evidence, the analysis and clearly understand what the

cause was."

"We can't rush to judgment on it because there are a lot of things in this business that look

like the smoking gun, but turn out not even to be close," Dittemore said.

In the meantime, the shuttle program has been put on hold as the NASA community will take time

during the next few days to remember astronauts Rick Husband, Willie McCool, Kalpana Chawla,

Laurel Clark, Mike Anderson, David Brown and Israel's first space flyer, Ilan Ramon.

"It's a tragic day, not only for America, but for the whole world and especially for the families

of the astronauts," said U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., who flew aboard Columbia during a 1986

mission as a U.S. congressman from the district that includes the Kennedy Space Center.

"The American people have started to think that flying in space is like getting into a car for a

Sunday drive, but it's anything but that. Spaceflight is still a risky business," Nelson said.

Final minutes

Based on the latest information provided by NASA, here's what happened:

At 5:35 a.m. EST (1035 GMT) Columbia's clamshell-like payload bay doors were closed and locked.

Heat-dispelling radiator panels line the inside of the doors, which must remain open for the

majority of each shuttle mission.
At 6:50 a.m. EST (1150 GMT) commander Husband and pilot McCool donned their orange launch and

entry suits and then strapped themselves in to the front left and right seats, respectively.
During the next hour or so the rest of the crew put on their suits and took their seats as well.

Kalpana served as flight engineer and sat between the commander and pilot, just behind them. To

the right of her was Clark.

The three remaining astronauts sat in the mid-deck underneath the flight deck.

While there was some brief discussion about fog at the landing site, the weather was forecast to

be ideal, and Columbia's crew was given a go to fire the braking rockets that would commit the

shuttle to its re-entry and touchdown.

At 8:15 a.m. EST (1315 GMT) Columbia's twin orbital maneuvering engines were fired for about

two-and-a-half-minutes, slowing the shuttle by about 176 mph, just enough to knock the spaceship

out of orbit.
At about 8:44 a.m. EST (1344 GMT) Columbia reached the 400,000-foot altitude that NASA considers

the beginning of Earth's atmosphere. The shuttle's outer temperature began climbing but it would

not reach its peak for another 15 minutes.
At 8:53 a.m. EST (1353 GMT) Mission Control detected the failure of a pair of temperature sensors

on the hydraulic system that moves the left wing's flaps.
At 8:56 a.m. EST (1356 GMT) a set of sensors inside the left-hand main landing gear's wheel well

saw a temperature increase in a brake line and the tires themselves.
"During this time the vehicle is performing fine. We had no indications of any problem," said

Milt Heflin, a NASA mission operations manager.

At 8:58 a.m. EST (1356 GMT) three more sensors in the left wing, these embedded into the vehicle

structure, appeared to fail.
At 8:59 a.m. EST (1359 GMT) another eight sensors on the left wing, these measuring tire

temperatures and pressures, also failed.
One of those sensor failures prompted an alert message to appear on the shuttle's cockpit

displays, as well as at Mission Control.

Following a routine procedure, astronaut Charlie Hobaugh radioed up to the crew, "Columbia,

Houston. We see your tire pressure message and we did not copy your last."

"Roger. Uh..." Husband replied, but the transmission abruptly cut off. No further word was heard

and all data being automatically sent to Houston suddenly stopped.

"As far as I know that was the last transmission from the crew," Heflin said. "Then we lost all

vehicle data."

It was 9 a.m. EST (1400 GMT).

Columbia was 207,135 feet over central Texas moving 18.3 times the speed of sound, or more than

12,000 mph. There was no hope of any survivors.

More questions

Why all of this happened remains the big mystery.

Detectives faced with a mystery usually start by trying to determine if anything happened out of

the ordinary, while also investigating every possibility.

With that in mind, NASA will spend time looking hard at an incident that took place on launch day

when a piece of insulating foam fell from the external tank and apparently struck Columbia's left

wing.

It is possible that the large chunk of debris damaged enough of Columbia's black heat protection

tiles on the bottom of the wing to trigger Saturday's catastrophic series of events.

The shuttle's thermal protection system tiles are extremely fragile when struck by an object, yet

easily withstand the flow of air as the shuttle flies through the atmosphere during launch and

re-entry.

The tiles also take a long time to repair or replace when damaged, which is a big reason why NASA

won't launch the shuttle through clouds or rain.

The black tiles are designed to withstand the greatest temperatures on re-entry and some 20,000

of them covered Columbia. White, felt-like blankets handle the less extreme temperatures. The

pattern of tiles and blankets give the shuttles their unique livery.

If enough of the black tiles were severely damaged by the insulation debris, or a smaller number

were completely ripped free from the shuttle's belly, then the amount of resulting heat during

re-entry could build enough to begin melting the aluminum structure underneath.

If that turns out to be the case, it does explain the series of events leading up to the loss of

contact with Columbia. The various sensor failures and readings could be an indication the wing

was failing.

Alternatives

Other possibilities could explain the sensor problems as well, including a structural failure of

the wing for some unknown reason unrelated to the tiles, or that the shuttle was slightly off

course and momentarily generated more heat than the shuttle was designed to handle.

NASA officials refused to speculate, but did acknowledge the potential link between the

launch-day debris and the landing-day disaster.

"As we look at that now in hindsight, we can't discount that there might be a connection,"

Dittemore said.

Mission managers had reported on Friday that they didn't believe any potential damage to the

tiles was cause for alarm.

In fact, there was nothing anyone could do about it.

"There's nothing that we can do about tile damage once we get to orbit," Dittemore said. "Once

you get to orbit, you're there and you have your tile insulation and that's all you have for

protection on the way home from the extreme thermal heating during re-entry."

Dittemore said there is no way for spacewalking astronauts to fix tiles on the shuttle's belly.


bye!

[Rick]

American failiures have been more than the Russian counterparts?

Whats the reason?
just wondering...

bye!

[Rick]

This was what the deorbitting was supposed to be like...



bye!


Credit:NASA.

[Rick]

This was what the deorbitting was supposed to be like...



bye!

[Persol]

American failiures have been more than the Russian counterparts?
I only know of 3 American failures/accidents...
Apollo 1
Challenger
Columbia

Russia has had 2 Soyuz capsules fail during reentry, and numerous rockets explode before/during takeoff.

I believe the american's have more fatalities because the shuttles each had 7 people on them.

[Rick]

I think Russia's own way is more apprpriate.Establishing a space station ans then taking off the payload off the ship...


bye!

[Tiassa]

I noticed at least one naysayer of the space program in general.

Let me say that for once I was impressed by the major networks. Specifically, I was very impressed by NBC. They had some good stuff going on for a dark day. An interview that caught my ear was with a guy named William Burrows, from an aerospace magazine, talking about the character of the astronauts he's known over the years.

One of the astronauts had apparently hoped for Mars. Anchor Brian Williams asked Burrows about that. Burrows pointed out that Mars is out of reach for the time being, and suggested a return to the moon. A very simple phrase explains it well:

No place in space is safe forever.

We must get off this rock, and right now the American space program is the best shot we've got. An international cooperative effort would be preferable, and someday that will happen. But astronauts are the last true and absolute pioneers of humankind right now; all else is introspection and refinement. The same rocketry that has brought so much misery to humanity by delivering bombs is also the flare that guides us to perpetuity.

The space program is, in principle, more important than a military. But we choose to make military matters more important. Everybody's gotta die someday.

But the astronauts are the pioneers of the human species' perpetuity.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

[Rick]

Just wondering,This was the oldest Shuttle isnt it?Could it be the reason...:confused:


bye!

[Rick]

Tiassa,
Yes good point.I have heard the negetive thoughts too.But accidents happen with Airbuses too.Concorde thing also happened.Does that mean people should stop flying ?


Ridiculus for anyone to say that...


bye!

[Persol]

Yup.. it was the oldest shuttle... but most every part of the shuttle has been replaced in it's lifetime.

[Rick]

Shuttle Catastrophe to Stir Political; Policy Decision Making
By Leonard David
Senior Space Writer
posted: 07:35 pm ET
01 February 2003



The tragic loss of Columbia and its crew will bring about a series of tough decisions by NASA,

the White House, and the American public.

Both the future direction of human space travel and overall operation of the International Space

Station must be addressed in short order.

Harrison Schmitt, Apollo 17 moonwalker and former Senator from New Mexico, said that getting a

shuttle back into space is critical. "You can no longer stand-down indefinitely. There is

commitment to the International Space Station effort and the people stationed there," he told

SPACE.com.



"You have to have enough confidence in the rest of the fleet to keep going…otherwise you don't

have a fleet," Schmitt said.

The shuttle's unique lift capability, as well as its use to periodically re-boost the massive

International Space Station are key to the vitality of the effort, Schmitt said.

Generic problem?

One worry, however, is finding a generic problem that may have cropped up in the space shuttle orbiter fleet. Rather than a short span of time required to find and fix trouble, and getting a shuttle back into space, discovering trouble common to all space planes would force a major slowdown.Although Schmitt was doubtful this will be the case, if found to be true, "you'd have to have a crash program" to get the fleet airborne again, he said.The loss of Columbia, leaving NASA with just three vehicles, is likely to have ripple effects in moving forward with an Orbital Space Plane. "I suspect this tragedy will add new impetus to the Orbital Space Plane…more than likely changing its direction to become not just a rescue vehicle, but also a vehicle for access to space," Schmitt said.Late last year, the White House gave NASA a go-ahead to move toward a smaller, highly maneuverable space plane. In the process, mega-dollar plans to replace the space shuttle with a new generation reusable launch vehicle were downgraded.
"With this having happened, and now down to three vehicles," Schmitt continued, "I suspect it will add new impetus to this Orbital Space Plane effort. More than likely it'll change the direction somewhat…so it becomes not just a rescue vehicle but also a vehicle for access."Finger pointing Following the loss of Challenger in January 1986 -- over 17 years ago -- the space plane fleet was grounded for more than two-and-a-half years.Schmitt recalls both the technical and political finger pointing associated with that long delay. "I think everybody needs to understand that a full-fledged accident investigation is now underway. They are not going into the delay mode apparently that they did after Challenger," Schmitt said. "They delayed a week then…and the whole process became politicized. They [NASA] want an objective investigation, technical as well as a board investigation, but no big full-fledged commission to do this. And hopefully they can stick with that." Schmitt, one of twelve people to have walked on the Moon, said the public must come to grips with a clear fact. "Everybody onboard Columbia was a volunteer. They believed whole-heartedly in what they were doing…and that risk is part of the job. It has been and always will be when you are doing great things," he concluded. Space station issues Keeping space shuttles on the ground means hard choices ahead for those building and running the International Space Station (ISS), said Marcia Smith, space policy analyst for the Congressional Research Service - a study arm of the U.S. Congress. "Of course there is always a way for the station crew to get home. So they are in no danger. They can come back on the Russian-supplied Soyuz if they need to," Smith said. You can occupy a space station without a shuttle, she said. But Smith said that NASA and the ISS partners are going to have to sit down and figure out what their strategy is going to be. "You can take people back and forth. And using the Russian Progress re-supply vehicle you can take an amount of cargo up…but you can’t bring anything back," she noted. What the shuttle contributed to the program, Smith said, was the vehicle's "down mass" abilities. Also, there are numerous hardware items -- such as the yet-to-fly add-on modules of both Europe and Japan -- major segments being prepared for a shuttle lift to the ISS. "So I think that space station assembly is going to be dramatically impacted by this. That equipment, with few exceptions, has to go up on the shuttle, Smith told SPACE.com.

One option may be to operate the station in a "steady state" status, Smith said. The ISS can remain functioning, utilizing only what capabilities are now onboard. Some modest resupply of the ISS can be accomplished through the automated Russian Progress vehicle. "But it will certainly limit what can be done," Smith added. Columbia replacement Building a replacement orbiter -- as was the case in the post-Challenger aftermath -- may not be possible. In the late 1980s, available backup hardware, called "structural spares," made the difference in building a new space plane. "Back then…they [NASA and industry contractors] were able to do it for less cost than they expected and within a relatively short period of time," Smith said.

"I'm not aware of any structural spares that are available now. So building a replacement would be more of a problem. So the question now is what can NASA do with a three orbiter fleet instead of a four orbiter fleet…and how is that going to effect its long-term plans?," Smith concluded. "This is all very, very sad," said Phillip Clark, a noted space analyst in the United Kingdom, in learning of the horrific accident that downed Columbia and its crew.

Clark speculated that, in theory, the ISS operations should be able to continue while relying on crew rotations provided by Russian Soyuz and Progress ships. That's much the way Russia's Mir space station survived, he said. Relying on Russia But in looking to Russia there's one catch.

"In the old days the Russians seemed to have an almost never-ending production line of Soyuz spacecraft," Clark said. "But now they are funded for just one spacecraft every six months. It would mean no more "taxi" missions for Soyuz, with the resident crew members for ISS trained to fly Soyuz spacecraft."Clark said while crews can continue to fly and supplies can be sent to ISS, it will mean that the optimum crew rotation will have to shift from 4 months to 6 months.Lastly, Clark said that Columbia is the one space plane that does not figure in the ISS program.

As the first operational orbiter, it is too heavy to carry useful payload to the space station's altitude. That's why Atlantis, Discovery and Endeavour are all assigned the "heavy lifting" assignments to the orbiting complex.
"Where there will be problems," Clark said, "are missions like the occasional Hubble servicing or other non-ISS science missions. ISS shuttles will have to be diverted to these. I would expect that -- apart from Hubble missions -- other non-ISS flights might simply get scrapped," he

explained.

bye!

[-iLluSiON-]

I just read somewhere that human remains were found... that can't be true. I'd figure it would have burnt up in the atmosphere. Is it true??

[Jaxom]

I saw that Burrows interview, and that phrase stuck in my mind as well. A non-spacefaring civilization won't last long in the shooting gallery we live in. I thought the Jupiter collisions woke people up to this, but once again people prove they have short term memories.

And there are so many other factors. Industry, population, resources...so many things that true space development would end up aiding in the long run. But we live in a world that if there's not a next quarter profit, or if it doesn't help next term elections, it isn't worth doing.

Someone on one of the networks had dabbled with the idea of using Columbia as a method of pushing a space race even harder...to somehow martyr them into reasons why we need more resources and funding for space, so that it could become safer and easier.

I can't say if the next best step is the ISS completion, Mars, the Moon, or something else. I'd love to see some more asteroid encounters, and maybe some experiments in asteroid moving. We need to keep pushing out though.

[Rick]

Three Committees to Probe Space Shuttle
By Matt Kelley
Associated Press
posted: 06:23 pm ET
01 February 2003



WASHINGTON (AP) -- An independent board is being appointed to investigate the space shuttle Columbia disaster while NASA and a House committee conduct their own separate inquiries,government officials said Saturday.Experts from the Air Force and Navy _ which had five of the seven crew members -- will join officials from the Transportation Department and other federal agencies on the independent review panel, NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe said. The space agency also will conduct its own investigation into the disaster, O'Keefe said at a news conference in Cape Canaveral, Fla. House Science Committee Chairman Sherwood Boehlert, R-N.Y., said his panel would investigate, as well."We're going to get together and fix this problem. We're going to launch shuttles again,'' NASA shuttle project manager Ron Dittemore said at a Houston news conference. He added there will "certainly be a hold on future flights until we get ourselves established and find the root cause of the disaster.'' NASA established a command post at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana. The National Transportation Safety Board was sending experts in vehicle structures and systems to that base.The independent panel was assembled Saturday morning and began working right away, said Boehlert, whose House committee oversees NASA. He said he was confident the expert panel would find the cause of the disaster. The investigations will review all the information that NASA collected as the Columbia began its descent for landing, then started breaking up more than 200,000 feet over Texas.That information would include transmissions from the crew, as well as records from the shuttle's sensors, analysis of the debris and data from military, government and commercial satellites."We will be poring over that data 24 hours a day for the foreseeable future,'' Dittemore said. Military satellites with infrared detectors saw several flashes as Columbia broke apart, according to a defense official who spoke only on condition of anonymity. It was unclear whether those ``spikes'' of heat indicated an explosion, the burning of pieces of debris re-entering the atmosphere or something else. O'Keefe and other senior administration officials said there was no indication that any kind of attack from the ground caused the disaster. FBI spokeswoman Angela Bell also said there was no indication of terrorism and that the FBI would have a minor role in the investigation, mainly helping collect evidence. Dittemore and chief flight director Milt Heflin told reporters that heat sensors under the trailing edge of Columbia's left wing began failing minutes before NASA lost contact with the shuttle. Dittemore acknowledged that a piece of insulating foam had hit the shuttle's left wing during takeoff Jan. 16, but said it was far too early to tell whether that incident was related to the disaster. The independent investigation -- similar to one after the 1986 explosion of the shuttle Challenger -- is meant to assure the public and Congress that the cause of the disaster will be found and fixed. "NASA, the administration and Congress have faced tough choices in regard to funding,'' said Sen. Mike DeWine, R-Ohio, who is on the Senate Appropriations Committee ``There has never been enough money to do all the things we want to do in space. But that was true before this disaster and will be true after this disaster.''In the 1986 Challenger crash, President Reagan appointed a 13-member commission, headed by former Secretary of State William P. Rogers, to investigate the accident. After a series of hearings, the commission reported four months later that an O-ring seal leaked in the right booster rocket. That allowed hot gases to burn through the bracket securing the booster to the shuttle, rupturing the shuttle tank.The shuttle fleet, then consisting of three spacecraft, was grounded for nearly three years while changes were instituted and repairs made. The Federal Emergency Management Agency took the lead in responding to the Columbia disaster. The military's Northern Command, which handles operations inside the United States, was coordinating the Defense Department's response.Two F-16 fighters from an Air Force Reserve unit in Fort Worth, Texas, joined in the effort to search for pieces of the shuttle, said Maj. Clay Church, the unit's spokesman.The Army's 1st Cavalry Division also sent a search and rescue task force from Fort Hood, Texas, to help search for debris. The task force included helicopters and military police to search for and to guard pieces of wreckage for collection by NASA, Fort Hood spokesman Cecil Green said. The teams were relying on UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters during the day and OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopters at night, Green said. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge called officials in Arizona and New Mexico to warn them about possible debris, although those states were out of the likely debris field. Oklahoma, Texas and Louisiana were more likely to see shuttle debris.

Taken from Space.com


bye!

[Rick]

<i>I just read somewhere that human remains were found... that can't be true. I'd figure it would have burnt up in the atmosphere. Is it true??</i>

I dont think that can happen,they'd be burnt to ashes in Atmosphere itself.Whats the source of this Info?

:confused:
bye!

[-iLluSiON-]

Human Remains (http://dailynews.attbi.com/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=030201&cat=news&st=newsshuttlenasadcC20030201212803)

[Rick]

Well thats interesting,do you think,it is really <i>the</i> helmet?...

gee...:confused:


bye!

[Rick]

Yes.it turns out that this is true.A NASA patch a Helmet(Flight helmet) was found altogether...

bye!

[apolo]

I just read all the posts above,and I was thoroughly shocked by the stream of insults one person leveled against a previous poster. Insults never proved anything. If one disagrees with a point of veiw one costructs a logical counter argument. Besides is'nt that against the rules of this forum?
This is the second time I have encountered this sort of thing in the one week since I rejoined the forum after a years absense. And I am really considering whether I should hang around any longer if dicussions have deteriated to this level.:(

[apolo]

I just reread all the posts above, and I noted the offending one has been removed by the forum master. Thank you.:)

[Persol]

Now that is quick service... lol

[ElectricFetus]

Woooh Glad I was not the "offending" one!

Originally posted by Persol
Hey dwayne... found a thread which might interest you
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16781

About that post about the moon not existing will if you can't believe in what you see then you might as well believe we all live in some kind of VR matrix and everything is make believe... I advice the jumping off a very tall building to test this. :rolleyes:

[Lady]

** Don't believe it was terrorism:)

[DirtyDave]

i believe it could be terrorism, but im hoping it aint, its a tradegy that the shuttle had to blow up and my thoughts go out to the families, but this is the kinda things to expect wen built by the lowest bidder

[ElectricFetus]

Dam right! this would not have happend if we had single-stage-to-orbit and/or hypersonic jets... but no we can't give NASA that kind off money so they have to use a freaking ~20 year old shuttle!

[Chagur]

That 'old' shuttle had recently been refurbished and was
in top condition with the newest technology available.

:cool:

[ElectricFetus]

If you call solid fuel boosters and a giant throw away tank that had a piece fall off and damage the shuttle and possible cause the tragedy that we have witnessed: “top condition with the newest technology available” then you are very wrong!

[CounslerCoffee]

People, this is something that is unsettling for me. What Im about to say may upset you, make you mad, or say "Hey. He's right."

Nobody, and I mean nobody, every watches the shuttle launch and land. People could care less for the NASA channel, people could care less about NASA itself. But all of a sudden, seven people die and they are "heroes."

Let me tell you what I think of that. If you didn't know their names before hand, if you didn't even know that the first Israeli was on that flight before, if you don't even know the name of the other shuttles, then how the heck are they heroes to you? Because they died? Oh yeah, that's right. They are heroes because they died... No other reason. They just are.

Nobody has to know who you are before hand, but after your dead... Your a hero. If they were such great people, and people are crying over this, then you should have said that they were heroes before they ever went into space, not when they died.

[Persol]

WellCooked...
We do not currently have single stage rockets or hypersonics jets that could lift the shuttle into orbit. So yes, this is the newest technology available.
As for the ice that formed and hit the shuttle, this is a function of the booster tank. It is designed to release gas so it doesn't explode as it heats up. The deisgn flaw would be that this forms ice on the side of the tank... and nasa didn't consider that the ice would get large enough to cause damage.

[ElectricFetus]

Persol,
We would have had both those if people were willing to fork over the money!!!

CounslerCoffee,
They are heroes because they were doing something for the benefit of the whole human race. Heroes get remembered for their deeds how can you remember a hero that did nothing?

http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{3D7127C4-28D1-4AC5-B409-C1E3985281A4}.gif

[Persol]

Even if we did fork over the money we'd be starting from scratch. The new system would initially be inheriently more dangerous BECAUSE it is new. There are always problems people havn't thought of... with the shuttle most of those problems have been found and fixed over time.
It makes more sense to fund alot of smaller R&D projects to find which are best, and then focus. This is what Nasa is doing with the single-stage rocket , hypersonic jet, and ion engine. Why put all our eggs in one basket, which may have a hole in the bottom?


P.S. The shuttle can't fit through those gates... how cruel can god be ;)

[DirtyDave]

we need a new system, but they knew that re-entry was guna be a mission coz a bit of thermal insulation fell off during take off, so y didnt they get transferred to another ship whilst in orbit? they knew re-entry was guna b blatently dangerous, they cant say they cant afford to do a resuce mission, lives aint valued in money!:(

[Persol]

so y didnt they get transferred to another ship whilst in orbit? What other ship? Another shuttle wasn't read to go up, and the russian capsules can't hold 7 people. As for the ISS, the shuttle was full of research equipment... they probably didn't have the ability to dock, or space suits. Even if they did dock, the ISS would not be able to support 10 people for an extended period of time. Finally, the fact that the shuttle would have run out of fuel before making it to the ISS.

[ElectricFetus]

They said they check it didn't they? They also did not have the equipment or training up there to replace a tile which I think is the first thing that we should learn from this tragedy!

[CounslerCoffee]

They are heroes because they were doing something for the benefit of the whole human race. Heroes get remembered for their deeds how can you remember a hero that did nothing?

So all the previous astronauts are heroes to? Right? So what are their names? What mission did they fly? Can you tell me that? Or not? The only reason you know who they are, is because there dead. That's why there heroes, and that's awful.

[Chagur]

A point of information:

Columbia was not capable of linking up with the ISS
and never was intended to be used in that way.

Half-Cooked:

Check the dictionary meaning of 'refurbished'

:cool:

[Persol]

So all the previous astronauts are heroes to? Right? So what are their names? There are alot of heros in our world. Most go completely unnoticed because we take them for granted.

I'm not certain if these astronauts fall into the 'hero' category. They enjoy what they are doing, and they don't do it to save human lives but to do research in space. It's the same as calling Columbus a hero because he explored America. It just wouldn't make sense.

Now there is a martyr argument for these astronauts, but I think hero is pushing it.

[ElectricFetus]

You have a point there: they are martyrs!

Chagur,
So we are on an insulting basis are we? I was not talking about that, read my posts up there a little more closely.

[Tristan]

I havent read the whole thread yet- dont have time- but Ill say this:

If you think it was an act of terrorism, you're wrong.

First off, since 9/11 security concerning NASA missions has been tighter than a size 26 waist on a man with a comfortable fit of 42.

Second off, The space shuttle was, what, 60 miles high in the atmosphere? Is that even considered being in the atmosphere?

Third....Very interesting and persuasive thing here.... IT WAS TRAVELING AT 12,500MPH! THATS REALLY FRICKEN FAST! By comparision, the fastest missle that could even think about trying to hit the shuttle travels at, what, a mere 1,500 mph?

most likely, a small crack in the heat shielding caused a catostophic chain reaction as soon as temperatures and pressures got considerably high which caused the heat shielding to be stripped off the left wing at first then destabilized the ship into a breaking apart fireball of liquid metal traveling at roughly 16 and 1/2 times the speed of sound.


Later
T

[Dwayne D.L.Rabon]

T There is no friction when the shuttle is in the last leg of reentry, there is no heat gain to acclerate the aready gain tempiture, meaning the shuttlehad already reached its maxium temipture from reentry and was cooling down, not heating up. as well the shuttle was in a nitrogen rich atmosphere about 40 miles up, where the nitrogen atomsphere would disapate the heat of the shuttle quickly, as would the vaccum created by the heat of the shuttle, where light would travel faster than the other light in the atmosphere.
The cause of the disater was a increase in atmopheric pressure
(gravity) on reentry into the tropopause.

DWAYNE D.L.RABON

[ElectricFetus]

no no and NO! The shuttle will still produce heat from air friction tell it is below 1500mph!!! In any atmosphere might I add! If the shuttle were rubbing on Teflon at the speeds it was going at it would still be producing incredible amounts of heat! what you are saying is utter crap I advice a general physic class ASP!

[Persol]

Damn WellCooked... you beat me to it.

[ElectricFetus]

No No you can keep explaining: I hate trying to correct him so much of what he says make no sence, It would take me hours to explain everything to him!

just call me Fetus ;)

[Persol]

As I explained in the Compressed Gas thread:
The compression would take place regardless of how much friction was on the surface. Friction will just move the compression location by slowing down the air and causing turbulence.
Now the compression itself causes VERY little heat transfer to the shuttle. (This can be done simply by using a FEA program and setting friction=0.) However the amount of friction increases because the compressed gas is denser, so more gas molecules hit the ship per second. This friction generates the heat.

Friction is defined as the force cause by a shear motion, so compression is possible without friction.

SIMPLE EXAMPLE
Put your hands together lightly and rub them together. They heat up. Press your hands together and they heat up more. The heat given off by friction is related to the pressure.

Now grease up your hands with something (no questions asked ). Repeat the experiment above and (if the lubrication is good enough) you will have very little heat generated.

[Dwayne D.L.Rabon]

First off the escape ratio of gases excceds the speed of the shuttle and will conduct heat, meaing it will respond to the effecting tempture of the shuttle.
Nitrogen is the greates exspanding gases known,some 108 to the 3rd power oer degree Celious.
When the shuttle begins reentry in starts to heat from friction, where the materials of the atmosphere traveling at the same speed as the shuttle or faster than the shutlle cause friction. here heat builds up and heats the under belly of the shuttle, for this reason the shuttle needs heat shielding tiles on its belly.
As the shuttle reaches furthur into the atmosphere the beely has become hot and emitts radiant energy which caises the belly to glow, this emmision of wave from travels at the speed of light, the light of the emmissions travel faster in space than in the earths atmosphere,(light in a vaccum) as the shuttle is futhur in the atmosphere of earth the emmissions effect the surroundings accelerating the atmos of the atmosphere, in this action to effect the atmosphere the atmosphere is pushed away from the shuttles belly, this is why the shuttle can glide in to the earths atmosphere, and even be picked up by a aircraft, called piggy backing. because nitrogen is so responsive to heat it does not cause the action of friction, the shuttle bascially enters the nitrogen rich atmosphere where it cools from reentey and then slows down gradually from the retaction of nitrogen exspansion, the retaction of nitrogen allows the shuttle to then glide to a landing.
the heat of the belly of the shuttle starts pushing the atmosphere away from its belly long before enetery the nitrogen rich atmosphere. nitrogen does not attract to a heat source it exspansed from the heat source, hence the use of nitrogen in nitro exsplosions. oxygen responds the same way ay high temptures, it is at the lower temps that it is a aid in fuel burning. both gases excced the exspace ratio when heated.
plainly there is no turbalance to the shuttle when it enters the nitrogen rich atmosphere about 40 mile up. however later as the shuttle cools friction is created and the shuttle uses it to glide to earth.
when the shutlle has reached this nitrogen rich atmosphere it has already reached it highest tempture that it will get in fact it reachs this temoture before reaching the nitrogen rich atmosphere, upon reaching the nitrogen rich atmosphere it begins cooling, due to the effect of nitrogen to transmit heat,emmison from the craft, it is also greatly transmited by the vaccum created from the repusion of nitrogen, where the emmission travels fast through a vaccum that through a atmosphere of nitrogen, (i.e the heat sink of space, a vaccum).
if you don't belive this reaction of oxygen and nitrogen then get a gas can, tins can heat the bottom of it with a burnner, and then put a lid on the can, it will collaspe, this is due to the fact that the gases of the atmoshpere are pushed out of the can by heat, removing atmosphere support from the inside of the can, this causes the can to collaspe. Like wise the shuttle uopn the last part of its reentry pushes the atmosphere away from its belly and there is no friction.
what ever haapen to the shuttle happed before atmosphere began to effect the reentry path of the shuttle as there was no means for friction to cause the carft to fail in flight, even a damaged wing would have no turbalance to effect it at the point that the shuttle encountered its problems resulting in the destruction of the craft. however there is the effect of gravity which will change the atmospheric pressure inside of the shuttle.
in this case the piolets of the shuttle would not feel or recognise the change of atmospheric pressure untill they reached the nitrogen rich atmosphere, as this is where the force of gravity picks up on renetry.
As noted by nasa the piolets were suited up for rentry, it the procces of being in space there is no gravity but the shuttle atmophere is pressurized so the they can properly breath in space orbit. this pressure is more than likle above that of suface pressure on earth, under the event the piolets suit up and there suits are presurized in space and the shutlle chamber is reduced in pressures, upon rentry the suits depressurize to compnesate for the increase in atmospheric pressure, the shuttle chambers must keep a pressure to prvent the shuttle from imploding, when entering earths atmopshere the pressure increases to about that of 30 ft of water or greater, whereing suits that increase to about 65 70 ft of water, that is enough to cause the bends in a few minutes. after enteing the nitrogen rich atmosphere. like wise in sea water. inside the shutlle would be like 50 pounds per sq. in. where out side the shuttle there is little pressure, from the vaccum created, and then a presssure of 14 pounds a sq. in.
this means that the shuttle has to compensate the internal pressure of the shuttle to prevent the bends in the crew members, here if upon entry to the nitrogen rich atmosphere the internal pressure of the shuttle is depressurized the shuttle will implode just like a submarine, it the case of the shuttle it imploded and then exsploded or as it slowed down quickly it began to burn appearing like a fire ball in the sky. now as it quicly slowed down it would be effected by friction and burn.

DWAYNE D.L.RABON

[Persol]

Wow... I never thought I'd say this... but...

I'm tired of arguing with you...

[Chagur]

Because of my interest in the space program, I've been following the
event rather closely and have begun to get a really uncomfortable feeling
that the crew and shuttle were doomed before leaving the atmosphere
thanks to lift-off damage that made a safe re-entry almost impossible
and that NASA, and possibly the crew, knew it.

The bummer is that there was no alternative, other than dying in
space, to an attempted return to earth. The one, very brief, action
would have been an immediate abort of the mission during lift-off
and an attempted emergency landing in Spain. Something which had
not been done before, presented its own problems, and for which
there was no solid justification in that they could not view for
possible damage until the shuttle was in orbit ... And by then it was
already too late.

Just thoughts.

:cool:

[chroot]

Originally posted by Persol
Wow... I never thought I'd say this... but...

I'm tired of arguing with you...
Yeah, he's a complete nutter. Ignore him.

- Warren

[Chagur]

An excellent article in the Christian Science Monitor with regard to
Russia's contribution to maintaining the ISS until things are back
on track over at NASA:

"With shuttle fleet grounded, NASA may need Russia to keep the space station aloft."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0204/p01s02-usgn.html

:cool:

[ElectricFetus]

I think it would not be hard for NASA to make some equipment and train Astronauts from now on in how to repair and replace these tiles in space. Also EVA should be possible in all STFs! So a redesign to the lab hub will be needed as well.

[Chagur]

Half-Cooked,

1. You can't do it wearing space suit gloves;
2. EVAs require planning and a space lock;
3. Weight constraints do not allow for it;
4. The shuttle is not designed for repair EVAs;
5. The tiles are not lego blocks.

Everything isn't as easy as it might appear.

:cool:

[ElectricFetus]

Why do you keep calling me that? You have a problem with me or something? Want to take this outside and man dance??? :mad:

1&3: tiles don't weigh much, some kind of device to do this with could also be fabricated that would not weigh much.

2: I already mention that.

4&6: also aware of that, but again I’m sure they can find way around it.

What is cheaper and less of a trouble afterwards: letting space shuttles burn up or trying to devise a way to fix it?

[Chagur]

WCF (is that better kid?)

1. Do you have any idea how many tiles, due to their unique shapes, would be needed?
2. How many years the shuttles been flying without this particular problem occurring?
3. Are you aware of the very strict weight constrains required by space flight?

I think not.

Oh, and I don't like my meat well cooked, even fetal meat, and I don't
appreciate someone who thinks it's cute to use such a 'nik'. So, yes
I have a problem with you.

:cool:

[ElectricFetus]

Jess man it’s just a gaming name! I was going for KentuckyFriedFetus but that was sadly taken already.

Its just a name! you need to calm down and enjoy what little life you have left for the good of it all. Your focus on me is kind of obsessive you relies that? Just some nice advice if your problem is what I think it is: Viagra really could help you.

I was hoping people would interpret it as a metaphor of the phrase "She's baking a baby" or a pun on being pregnant. If I’m a Well Cooked Fetus that would mean I have been "in there" for to long or that I'm out already… take a guess which one?

Sorry: Look at my post count I'm at evil mood right now! this was post 666

Anyways back to the subject
1. I was at the belief that most of those tiles where of ~3x3 square shape?

2. Yes but new designs have much larger easier to replace tiles like the one on the now debunked X37 project

3. 30ton to very low Earth orbit... below 300Miles

[Chagur]

:D :D :D Got to u, kid. :D :D :D No apology needed :D :D :D

Viagra? You really do want to see me dead!!!!!!

1. Nix on the similar shape. More like a thousand unique shapes;

2. Ah, but we aren't dealing with a new design;

3. Remember Columbia wasn't used for ISS re-supply because
of the weight problem .... The following four shuttles were quite
a bit lighter.

Hang in there. :cool:

[ElectricFetus]

??? what? Viagra would cause you to much pain? Maybe you should not imply your age in your profile.

I'm happy you see that my name is not a insult anymore.

I think the shuttle design is old and we can do better now.

[Chagur]

Too much pleasure (I'll be seventy come March)!

It wasn't an insult to start with. Just jerking your chain :)
Got to have some fun on the 'net.

Yeah, we could buy the Buran from the Russians and a
few dozen Proton rockets to put it up there ... Although,
now that we're using the Russian RD-280 rocket engines
in the Atlas-V, we might be able to do it without the
Proton rockets.

:cool:

[ElectricFetus]

Ooooh... but I really wanted to man dance you! :(

what happend to Enurga???

[Persol]

I think the shuttle design is old and we can do better now. Well we can do better... just not right now.
Most of the ideas people want to throw onto a new shuttle are still being researched.

[ElectricFetus]

they woun't be if they had had more money!

[intjd]

STS107 was the 1st mission in 3 years (16 missions) not to dock with the International Space Station, dock with a satellite (Hubble) or launch a satellite. STS-99 was the previous mission that did not dock or launch anything. It's task was "high resolution digital imaging of Earth using 3D radar mapping"

Mission Specialist Ilan Ramon, Colonel, Israeli Air Force, was the 1st Israeli to fly an STS mission. His task was to operate a "multi-spectral camera for recording desert aerosol"

Colonel Ramon's last command was Department Head of Operational Requirements for Weapon Development and Acquisition.

STS-107 was scheduled to de-orbit 3 days prior to Colin Powell's presentation before the UN where he will demonstrate proof of Iraqi non-compliance to the UN disarmament resolution.

Do you think the primary mission of STS-107 was "science experiments"?

The question to ask is what happened to the imaging data? Was the imaging data necessary for Powell's presentation down-linked, or did it reside on a hard-drive in the shuttle. Most high resolution imaging data has huge data file size and would be difficult to down-link. I suspect there are some people very keen on finding a hard-drive.

It will be interesting to see what Powell presents.

[Persol]

they woun't be if they had had more money! You can say that about many of things... and most of them are more a immediate danger. Another billion towards the shuttle and we may have save 7 lives. How many lives would that billion save if put to cancer research... or drug education... or airport security... or probably most of all, more/better trained police...

I agree that research should be done so that we can one day leave this planet... but why spend all that money on 1 shuttle, when you can have 100 probes that do experiments... without the risk.

[Persol]

Originally posted by intjd
STS107 was the 1st mission in 3 years (16 missions) not to dock with the International Space Station, dock with a satellite (Hubble) or launch a satellite. STS-99 was the previous mission that did not dock or launch anything. It's task was "high resolution digital imaging of Earth using 3D radar mapping" Which have been made avaiable to scientists

Do you think the primary mission of STS-107 was "science experiments"? Yes, and to give other countries penis envy by demonstrating our power. It will be interesting to see what Powell presents. Probably the same stuff.

It would make more sense for them to just use one of the satalites which were designed for this sort of thing.

[Persol]

And finally, for those who say NASA should have known the shuttle would burn up
Ron Dittemore, the shuttle program manager, said Monday that photos showed the piece of insulation was about 16-by-6-by-20 inches in size and weighed about 2.67 pounds, and could have smashed into the thermal tiles on the underside of the left wing area.
...
The engineering report cited by Readdy indicated ``the potential for a large damage area to the tile." But it went on to note that the damage should be limited to the coating on the tiles and have no effect on the mission.

"These thermal analyses indicate possible localized structural damage but no burn-through and no safety-of-flight issue,'' the report concluded.


taken from:
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_updatePM_030203.html

[wet1]

if you don't belive this reaction of oxygen and nitrogen then get a gas can, tins can heat the bottom of it with a burnner, and then put a lid on the can, it will collaspe, this is due to the fact that the gases of the atmoshpere are pushed out of the can by heat, removing atmosphere support from the inside of the can, this causes the can to collaspe. Like wise the shuttle uopn the last part of its reentry pushes the atmosphere away from its belly and there is no friction.

Hmmm, not quite. This is the principal behind getting an air tight seal while preserving food and getting a good seal on some of the products sold in stores. It will work equally well with another gas. It is not the oxygen and nitrogen that causes this. It is the heat, which expands and increases the pressure inside the container. And then the contraction that the removal of the heat causes as it cools, not because it contains oxygen or nitrogen or any combination in between.

[Chagur]

The Proton is currently the heavy lifter of the Russian launch vehicles.

See: http://www.aerospaceguide.net/lv/proton.html

Although the Energia, successor to the N-1 Moon Rocket was used to launch
the Buran, it has been abandoned but may return to service as the Energia-M
if the launch business improves.

Maybe we'll 'man dance' another time :)

Take care :cool:

[ElectricFetus]

Probes don't get people off the planet do they?

[Persol]

Probes don't get people off the planet do they? No, but neither does our current technology. The whole point of getting people off the planet is to spread humanity out. But the people who are getting off at the moment rely on the earth to much anyhow.

For basic experiments, use probes...
For exploring the solar system, use probes...
For biology experiments, use the ISS...

Then, when we have the technology to create a self-sustaining base somewhere else in the solar system (or the moon) we can send people.

[ElectricFetus]

and probes help develop that technology as well as manned space flight or better?

[Persol]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
and probes help develop that technology as well as manned space flight or better? I say that probes give the same results cheaper and faster... which would be better. As someone pointed out previously human biology is an exception that also needs research, hence the ISS.

This is a mute point though as Bush just promised Nasa a budget increase.

[ElectricFetus]

I should have rephrase my self

...but do probes help us develop the technology FOR manned space flight as well as just doing manned space fight?

[Persol]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
I should have rephrase my self

...but do probes help us develop the technology FOR manned space flight as well as just doing manned space fight? See above. For everything beside biology, probes work better. Only about half of the experiments done on the shuttle are biological. They would be much better performed on the ISS, using the shuttles (or next generation) as transports.

[ElectricFetus]

No probes don't help develop manned space technology as fast and as well as manned space fight, jess!

[Persol]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
No probes don't help develop manned space technology as fast and as well as manned space fight, jess! What exactly has been developed in manned space flight that wouldn't have been atleast as easy with probes? (excluding the biological)

There are a few... very few... but they could be done on the ISS.

And who is Jess?

[ElectricFetus]

Jee lets see rockets large enough to lunch people into orbit and beyond for one, Lunar landers, Space shuttle, there would be more but the funding to develop it dried up long ago. We need moon bases to prove how to be self-sufficient. We need bases and colonies on Mars to build a viable fertile planet.

Then again if we wait some more decades all that will not be needed because AI and the souls of people in robots and the probes you speak of could do all that much better then people could. By then there won’t be an need to develop technology for shooting old and obsolete Homo sapiens into space and the talking monkeys will die on this wet little world and are space faring progeny will say “good riddance”

[Persol]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
rockets large enough to lunch people into orbit and beyond
Lunar landers
Space shuttleYou haven't listed reasons for manned space flights... you've listed methods. For the rockets, you don't need a person sitting on the top to realize it can lift their weight. All of these were researched on earth before hand, and then 'test flown'. The lunar landers are a special case because of the cold-war and lack of robotics at the time.

We need moon bases to prove how to be self-sufficient. We need bases and colonies on Mars to build a viable fertile planet. I've said it before and I'll say it again. We can not create a self-sustaining enviroment here on earth, we can't do it on another planetary body. Researching this area can be done on earth faster/cheaper/safer.

The only reason for people in space is to see the effect on people.

(there are a few others that require 'hands on' research, but they can be done on the ISS)



And who is Jee?

[ElectricFetus]

Oh god how many times do I have to repeat my self! That is the reason: to be able to live in space!

Then again we can just die off hear on earth? personal I don't give a dam!, it would be majestic if humans conquer the stars but the new and pure efficiency of evolve “humans” doing for them selves and leaving us in the mud seem guaranteed to me at this rate.

[Persol]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
That is the reason: to be able to live in space! Hehe... but you still depend on the earth to send you supplies and all that good stuff. So there is no benefit to being in space because if earth does have some disaster, you're dead anyhow. Call me selfish, but I diagree with paying for people to go to space 'just because' Then again we can just die off hear on earth? I'd rather die on earth with my friends and family then in space by suffication. Once we can self-sustain life in space, we can for colonies. Then friends and family would be there with us. it would be majestic if humans conquer the stars but the new and pure efficiency of evolve “humans” doing for them selves and leaving us in the mud seem guaranteed to me at this rate It do admit that it would be majestic, we just disagree on the methods of getting there:)

What does this mean?
new and pure efficiency of evolve “humans”
If it refers to the ideas refered to in the evolution thread, I think we'll be in space before we evolve (either naturally or forced) into something different.

[ElectricFetus]

You just skip over all the other stuff I wrote up there didn't you?

No, I disagree! I think we will still be here on earth without any self sustaining human colonies in space by the end of the centaury and if our exponential technological growth does not slow down then there will be competitors in space that will be far more suited up there then we will be. 100 years is all we have left as the dominate race in this star system at the rate we are going. Getting into space might mean Homo sapiens will survive a little longer.

In the end is does not matter nothing last forever.

[Persol]

You just skip over all the other stuff I wrote up there didn't you?
I think I saw it all... I might have missed a post.

No, I disagree!
Ok

I think we will still be here on earth without any self sustaining human colonies in space by the end of the centaury and if our exponential technological growth does not slow down then there will be competitors in space that will be far more suited up there then we will be.
Who are WE and who are the COMPETITORS?

100 years is all we have left as the dominate race in this star system at the rate we are going. Getting into space might mean Homo sapiens will survive a little longer.
Who's taking over?

I'm missing the part of why we must be in space NOW.

[ElectricFetus]

let me lay this down simply:
1.Humans will incorporate them selves into machines... at lest some of us.
2. Robots can live in space for only a fraction of the cost and energy that humans need.
3. Humans neither have the ambition nor the resources to conquer space and thrive.
4. By the basic laws of evolution if you have a environment with two (or more) competitors and one competitor is better suited to that environment then it will out number its less suited competitor(s).
5. As you can see humans cannot survive in space easily but robots can.
6. Considering humans violent nature space will be the only safe haven for AI and soul copies.
7. Also considering are violent nature I don’t think those AI or evolve Humans would want us around at all and would either get as far way as possible or destroy any threat.
8. Considering how all societies through history have fallen and crumbled I believe this one won’t last either and will probably be followed by some kind of anti-technological fundamentalist society that would not even try for outer space. Good thing for the space faring robots that is.

Of course this is just a High-tech prophecy but even Atheist has beliefs.

[Persol]

Thanks Fetus... that answered all my questions

[Chagur]

As reported by The Washington Post re. an article in Aviation
Week and Space Technology: It looks like they were evaluating
damage to the Columbia and tracking its re-entry using an Air
Force telescope.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38794-2003Feb7.html

Interesting, and not unexpected. :cool:

[ElectricFetus]

Lets see this photo! How come we don't see this; is this magazine full of crap? I wait for the NASA's result before believing something some magazine showed.

[Persol]

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
Lets see this photo! How come we don't see this; is this magazine full of crap? I wait for the NASA's result before believing something some magazine showed. It's not just the Washington Post that has been reporting this. They were tracking with a telescope... not to far fetched.

[ElectricFetus]

No I'm saying it sound legit but lets see it before believing it... lets see what NASA says about it.

[Persol]

I was actually wondering if we'll see the picture. CNN seemed to think that this telescope was for looking at foreign satalites. In this case the picture may be classified.
But then CNN also said that the shuttle travels 18 times the speed of light.

[ElectricFetus]

LOL when they say that!?!?

[Persol]

Theres a thread on here called "faster then light travel" or something along those lines. It has a picture of it.

[wet1]

Space junk is another likely scenerio. If paint flecks travel fast enough to star a shuttle window, imagine what a bolt or nut could do...

[ElectricFetus]

thou the chances of a piece of space junk hitting in the same spot that that piece of foam hit is not as likely. 2 bad things happening on the same spot is only the root of the chance of just one. If you role 2 dice and try to get 2 ones (snake eyes) that’s is the square root as likely of get just 1 one. I say based on the evidence at this time the most likely cause was that piece of foam. With that piece of foam hitting and (the possible) photos of the damage in the same spot the foam theory is now very strong now.

[Chagur]

As a point of information, Aviation Week and Space Technology is
a highly respected weekly magazine. Ought to try reading it
sometime WellCookedFetus.

:cool:

[ElectricFetus]

Just as reputable as Nature I know I know but I want to see these photos for my self thank you.

just call me fetus.

[Chagur]

Okay, fetus ... Just call me Chag.

Doubt they'll release the pictures even though NASA messed up with
the launch pictures. Per CNN: Key launch pictures not in focus!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/06/s...tion/index.html

DOD has a thing about the Air Force releasing any pictures. The resolution
is top secret.

:cool:

[ElectricFetus]

Really? well then Chag I wait for NASA response...