Drug assistance

[Dionysus]

Do you believe in the spiritual use of pyschoactive drugs (cannibis, psilocybin, etc..)? Do they have a place in spiritual growth? Are they simply a vice, an excuse to get high? What do you think?

[EvilPoet]

I thought this link might be of interest. :)

The spiritual use of psychoactive drugs (http://www.csp.org/nicholas/brighton.html)

[notme2000]

2 drugs that did wonders for me philosophically were mushrooms and Ecstasy. I have quit all drugs now. But to those who feel drugs may have something to teach them, go for it, but be careful. Always remember drugs are the light, not the path... And eventually the light will burn out. Once it has, put it down and go on without it.

[Empty Dragon]

I would have to agree with not me. Though sometimes it isn't the light that is burning out it is your fear of the unkown growing. Spirituality can scare the shit out of you it is kind of like a drug trip of its own.

[Jolly Rodger]

there is your spiritual world and the world in which you were born in to, it would be a pitty not to visit the spiritual side at least once although when you go to far you will leave the real world behind and that is where everyone you love is. In saying this i mean when you spend to much time on drugs there is no readjusting to the world in which you used to know all so well.

[notme2000]

Though sometimes it isn't the light that is burning out it is your fear of the unkown growing I would disagree. I would say the fear of the unkown is why some people STAY on drugs, cause they can't face their discovery without it.

[Empty Dragon]

I would disagree. I would say the fear of the unkown is why some people STAY on drugs, cause they can't face their discovery without it.

It can be both. Some times drugs can show you more then you want to know at that time. Or perhaps they will realize faults about them that they are afraid to face. Ei: Mushrooms will disolve the ego temporarily and it can release blocked memory and un-resolved personal issues. When those thing pop up it is not unsual for some to hide and pray for the trip to end. if you dwell in the fear you will never leave it but if you accept it, it will pass. At times I would say that some are afraid of the borderless world that is drawn up. Mushrooms will not work unless you let go of all existance; to be taken on a trip. That is how mushrooms can help you obtain wisdom. They are a teacher and they teach direct experience as a lesson. That is the reason for the halucinations, to be temporarily with out physical form. Mind you I am going of on a vison quest here so this may not fit every ones goal with mushrooms. Mushrooms can teach you much if you go towards them with openess. Though like Notme said they are only a temporary ally they are to be discarded when you deem it to be time.

[notme2000]

Agreed. I didn't take in to acount the "sometimes" in your post, lol. That's the trickiness about drugs. It's hard to recognise when they've outworn their use and now you depend on them. So proceed with caution.

[Empty Dragon]

I agree its a slipper path. Though it can be easy to run out of fear and call it quiting. Since the majority of society will pat you on the back for it. Though do not forget when you quit it is not what the drugs did to you it is what you did on the drugs.

[notme2000]

Though do not forget when you quit it is not what the drugs did to you it is what you did on the drugs
Exactly. Once drugs have served their purpose, it becomes you abusing them.

[fadingCaptain]

I wouldn't call it spirituality or spiritual growth. I think any spiritual attachment is purely the feelings of euphoria induced by the drug. So...

Drugs can be fun. They are simply a risky tool used in trying to maximize happiness.

Yep, thats about tit.

[Empty Dragon]

Exactly. Once drugs have served their purpose, it becomes you abusing them.
I would agree, but I think is important ot be aware of the true motive of your choice.

I wouldn't call it spirituality or spiritual growth. I think any spiritual attachment is purely the feelings of euphoria induced by the drug. So... Not all drugs in duce euphoria. It is not like a mushroom trip is allways a perfect voyage there will be many storms.;)

[notme2000]

I would agree, but I think is important ot be aware of the true motive of your choice
Agreed. But the darkness you speak of can actually be a result of the drug itself... You abuse it, it abuses you back.

[fadingCaptain]

Not all drugs in duce euphoria. It is not like a mushroom trip is allways a perfect voyage there will be many storms.
Trust me I know this :). But the goal is always euphoria. Nobody does acid looking for a bad trip...

[notme2000]

Trust me I know this . But the goal is always euphoria. Nobody does acid looking for a bad trip...
Some people do drugs looking for insight, wether it be good or bad. For example, when I was concidering quitting drugs, I turned to mushrooms (yes, I see the irony) to help with the decision. I purposely induced a bad trip to show me all the bad things about myself that were caused by drugs. That was the LAST time I ever did drugs.

[Rick]

Usage of Drugs when Other effective and Natural methods are available is ridiculus!And we havent yet talked about the Serious Side effects of such Durgs...


bye!

[fadingCaptain]

I purposely induced a bad trip to show me all the bad things about myself that were caused by drugs.
Heh cool. You did drugs in order to stop doing drugs. Maybe we should start giving shrooms to addicts :) True, there are people that do drugs for insight or inspiration.

Usage of Drugs when Other effective and Natural methods are available is ridiculus!
Tell me an effective, natural method of getting high.

[Rick]

Yoga and Meditations provide difficult but a fundamental means of relaxations and getting high and in a trance that you'd desire...


bye!

[fadingCaptain]

Yoga and Meditations provide difficult but a fundamental means of relaxations and getting high and in a trance that you'd desire...
Yeah, I thought this is what you meant or maybe an adrenaline high as in xtreme sports...
I agree this is a viable alternative but it is not the same thing. I mean, taking a hit of acid and sitting down to meditate will definately not yield the same results. People do drugs even though they are dangerous because it gives a unique experience. I do not currently do drugs and I am not advocating them...just pointing out that there are definite, concrete reasons people do them.

[Rick]

I am totally against drugs because i have seen my friends Fall into Booby trap because of the Spiritual reasons.True drugs can produce unique experiences.Like you can have Flying experiences and other OBE with these.

Some hallucinogen also produce Tunnel like O.B.Es...

But Drugs are totally uncool.I warned all of the friends,And it costed them too much of money and time to come out of the addictions...


bye!

[Empty Dragon]

Meditation can give you a better high then any drug. It can be even scarier then an acid trip as well.

I am totally against drugs because i have seen my friends Fall into Booby trap because of the Spiritual reasons.True drugs can produce unique experiences.Like you can have Flying experiences and other OBE with these.

E, Acide, Meth, Coke, heroin,....I really do not consider them of any spiritual use at all. They are a high that is all. Depending on drugs for spiritual reasons can make you spiritually retareded. There are times when they are of use and there are times when they are not. Either way it is no something to exploit. If you are to use these "medicine" they are to be give respect. They are not your toy. You fuck with the Drugs and the drugs will fuck with you.

There are many spiritual practices in the world that use "medicine" as a means to achieve a higher state of consiousness. I myself use mushrooms when I am at an utter lose for an awnser. They always come through, but it isn't always the answer that I want. :rolleyes:

People do Yoga for differnet reasons. I don't know many who do it for spiritual reasons. Same with drugs. Spirituality is not for every one.

[notme2000]

Yoga and Meditations provide difficult but a fundamental means of relaxations and getting high and in a trance that you'd desire...
For some people it takes drugs to realize these trances and supreme relaxations exist... Once they realize this they should want to learn to do them independant of drugs. This is why I quit.

[Rick]

By the time they realize it,wont it be too late?...


just a thought...

bye!

[notme2000]

By the time they realize it,wont it be too late?...
Quite often yes. It's a risk you take I guess...

[Empty Dragon]

For some people it takes drugs to realize these trances and supreme relaxations exist... Once they realize this they should want to learn to do them independant of drugs. This is why I quit. That is not the point the idea is that the drug is a tool to obtaint the skill once the skill is obtianed the "ally" can be done away with. Because now they have joined with the ally.
Remember this is a spiritual perception of a drug. In spirituality there are spiritual practices. Spirit meaning soul and spirit world. It doesn't really fit into an atheistic view.

[notme2000]

Remember this is a spiritual perception of a drug. In spirituality there are spiritual practices. Spirit meaning soul and spirit world. It doesn't really fit into an atheistic view.
Whatever it is both athiests and theists experience it, so it does fit in to an athiestic view, just because you are not willing to accept athiestic explanations does not mean you should pass that intolerance off as the truth.

[Empty Dragon]

Whatever it is both athiests and theists experience it, so it does fit in to an athiestic view, just because you are not willing to accept athiestic explanations does not mean you should pass that intolerance off as the truth.
I have never claimed to know the truth. One could equally say "just because you are not willing to accept spiritualist explanations does not mean you should pass that intolerance off as the truth". It is a rather black or white situation. To the best of my knowledge the spiritualistic way is to establish a relationship with existance and gain understanding through experiencing that what is. The atheistic view is to test what is, draw conclusions and test again. The atheist and the spiritualist will interact with there ally differently. Hence a spiritual view cannot be put into an atheist view because it will become an atheistic view. It has then lost its original meaning. It is not that one is better then the other just different.

[notme2000]

The atheist and the spiritualist will interact with there ally differently. Hence a spiritual view cannot be put into an atheist view because it will become an atheistic view. It has then lost its original meaning. It is not that one is better then the other just different.
Ah, misinterpretation on my part. Sorry.

[Dionysus]

Well, since Mushrooms seem to be the general spiritual drug of choice (am I wrong?) then lets look at the benefits and downsides;

Threshold Effects : (from .25gm - .75gms P. Cubensis)
Slight cold feeling, mild gas or nausea, nervous-feeling, slight pupil-dilation, mild visual changes including lights seeming brighter, lights having a 'starry' look, and noticing movement at the periphery of vision, giddiness, feeling more emotionally sensitive, and many other effects related to a change in neurochemistry.

Medium Effects : (0.75gm - 2.5gms P. Cubensis)
'Cold' feeling, gas and/or stomach discomfort, nausea, pupil-dilation, open-eye visual effects: lights gain auras, star-pattern effects, rainbowing around lighting, lights seem brighter, often 'more beautiful', notice movement in periphery, sometimes increased ability to focus, sometimes reduced ability to focus, visual field 'distracting', visual field 'entertaining', closed eye 'visuals': normal closed eye 'blobs' take on patterns, shapes, distinct forms, increased ability to visualize creatively, spontaneous detailed images, feelings of time-dilation, feelings of `coming home again' which is often more pronounced for those who have used mushrooms before, feelings of belonging and connection, increased emotional sensitivity, increased ability to focus on emotional problems or memories, chance of becoming 'caught in a loop' thinking / dwelling on a single thought or feeling (usually negative or painful), realizations about past feelings, realizations about how to live, gain a new perspective on current lifestyle and behaviors, feelings of connection with those around you, noticing things which are normally ignored or taken for granted, feelings of wonder, spirit, joy, sadness, despair, religious awakening, contentment and possibly latent psychological crises can come out..

High Dose Effects : (2.5gm - 10gms)
All of the Medium Effects, usually with a significantly more uncomfortable Coming Up, more pronounced nausea sometimes (rarely) resulting in vomiting, sometimes significant mental discomfort associated with feelings of fear and often times accompanying a "what have I done to myself" or "how far am I going" thought, the unpleasant Coming Up effects usually lessen with familiarity and more knowledge about the safety and character of mushroom effects. High Dose Effects are usually characterized by the closed eye visualizations being significantly more elaborate and enfolding, religious revelation, spiritual awakening, near death experiences, loss of self, talking to seemingly external, autonomous entities, extreme emotional responses, repressed memories coming to life, latent psychological crises can come to the surface, intense feelings of wonder, connection, joy, fear. High Dose Effects can also include extreme time-dilation, with experiences of wall-clock minutes taking an experientially large amount of time, watching clocks or digital counters where the seconds seem to take minutes to count off. One of the most interesting effects is the feeling of awakening for the first time ever from a previous state of sleep, of liberation from what is now seen as a life-long state of bondage. Paradoxically, it is this new awareness which feels normal and natural and the previous fog which is seen to have been unreal all along. The bemushroomed seeker is convinced that, once gained, this awareness is impossible to lose, but inexplicably by the next day it is just a memory.

Interesting to take into account. I do not condone the use of drugs, but clearly for certain individuals, it can be a valuable aid (one to be discarded like training wheels). As this thread points out it is an assistance, nothing more.

[notme2000]

Dionysus,
Exactly. Those definitions were perfect. It was ON mushrooms that I decided to quit drugs all together. I find mushrooms to be the most spiritual drugs of all. Ecstasy is also spiritual but it has less truth to it. It just induces the spiritual feeling. Mushrooms backs up that feeling with spiritual revelations, being able to see things as they are, and knowing what you have to do next...

[Empty Dragon]

Some ones been to Arowid.org:rolleyes:

Paradoxically, it is this new awareness which feels normal and natural and the previous fog which is seen to have been unreal all along. The bemushroomed seeker is convinced that, once gained, this awareness is impossible to lose, but inexplicably by the next day it is just a memory

How I precieve mushrooms it that they disolve the alter-ego. It shakes the bondage of the alter-ego and allows you to be at one. The awarness follows. I personaly did not lose the whole awareness the next day. It was not to the same extent, but it was still there and has only grown with time. Mushrooms are a teacher the dissolve teh alter-ego and teach many lessons in a state where you are receptive. What you learn does not leave. You may lose the state of being that comes with mushrooms but you keep the lessons. The state is a glimpse of real consciousness. If you seek with an open heart you can true attain consciousness. It is almost like temporary stillness. On the metaphysical side mushrooms seems to release energy blockages in the body/Mind/Spirit. Its effects seems to be temporary so like I said earlier it seems like a temporary stillness. Consciousness can be obtained when these blocked energies are attended to. Ei: Through meditation, yoga, chigung, t'ai-chi, sweet lodge.......

[notme2000]

Continuing on what Empty was saying,
It's like mushrooms peels away all the layers of BS that has been piled on, one at a time, since being a child, and you're finally able to be truly YOU again. This is why it feels normal and the previous 'fog' feels abnormal. Because most of your life you're hiding who you truly are. From others, and from yourself. Mushrooms takes that option away and leaves you face to face with yourself. For the strong willed and strong minded, this is a chance to study yourself. For the weak minded it will probably result in a bad trip, and they will never stop to concider it's a reflection of their whole life. So instead of fixing their life, they just never do mushrooms again, so they never have to see it as a whole again. I no longer do mushrooms, or any drugs for that matter, because I feel I am in touch with myself. At least enough that doing drugs would do more harm than good. The rest of the 'journey' I will do on my own, day-to-day.

[moonman]

I believe that Acid has had deep spiritual meaning to some users.
I think it's a synthesized version of substances that can already be found in nature. But acid destroys your brain. So I doubt I shall ever do it.

I only believe in the use of naturaly occuring herbs and medicines. And I won't recomend that -anyone- do drugs as party drugs. Even in traditional use they are not for getting high. But for learning lessons about the self and the universe. That is all that I use them for.

[Empty Dragon]

Agreed. Though I do see pot as having certain socio-cultural aspects to it.

[ribot]

psychedelics are indeed mind growing. they should only be used when the mind is healthy; fresh and clean. it's easy to justify drug abuse with spirituality, to succumb to the hurtful entertainment they can give.

[moonman]

:m: Often gets me very philosophical, I know many who also feel this way while smoking. It also has certain traditional useses in shamanistic rituals that are now long forgotten.
Ok, I admit, :m: isn't perhaps a direct form of selfexpolration as some might define it, but I might argue that it's a lifestyle much like a buddhist monk spends his life in dreaming meditation. I don't smoke every day, just 1-4 times a month I would easily stop if I was convinced it was doing me harm. But as I see it I am happy, relaxed and far from lethargic. It isn't for everyone ofcourse, everyperson must find what is good for themselves.
Noone should do 'a drug' if they feel the slightest bit apprehensive about it, and definately no to 'be cool'.

Just a note: LSD is very similar to the LSA found in the plants Morning Glory and Hawiian Baby Woodrose. Which both have much spiritual tradition.

[Empty Dragon]

Though it should be noted that chinese physicians have been in contact with Marijuana for a long time. They are close to to Vietnam, Laos and Pakistan. They found that these substances damaged the kidneys and liver and lodged resin seridues in the bones of the forehead, that slowly leached into the brain with undersirable results. Though I am not sure of how frequnetly or how large a quantity this was based on. It was used in Chinese medicine at time.

[moonman]

I just want to say to anyone who is thinking about using psychedelics for self expolration, be carefull, responsible, and research into that which you are taking.

This guide is quite usefull http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/psychedelic_experience/psychedelic_experience.shtml

and the main site http://www.erowid.org is also a goldmine of information.

Note: I am not promoting the use of illegal substances or otherwise harmfull activities. And I am not recomending them either.

[jps]

Originally posted by Empty Dragon
Though it should be noted that chinese physicians have been in contact with Marijuana for a long time. They are close to to Vietnam, Laos and Pakistan. They found that these substances damaged the kidneys and liver and lodged resin seridues in the bones of the forehead, that slowly leached into the brain with undersirable results. Though I am not sure of how frequnetly or how large a quantity this was based on. It was used in Chinese medicine at time.

Thats very interesting as it contradicts all the scientific studies carried out by western medicine. Can you provide a link or source?

[Canute]

What a lot of sensible remarks about drugs! I can absolutely and completely vouch for the fact that drugs (marijuana anyway) can shine a light on personal existence. However I agree that it's a
dangerous way of going about it.

This discussion is based on the premise that pschoactive drugs affect our physiology in a way that other foodstuffs do not. In fact of course everything we ingest affects us, and most of what we eat is just what we have evolved to become dependent on in a manner precisely analagous to 'drug' dependency.

Of course the sort of 'drugs' discussed here, legal or otherwise, generally have a more noticeably novel affect on consciousness than carrots. I suspect that one of their main affects is to disrupt our thinking and thus allow us to focus more on our consciousness, producing not so much a still mind as a stunned one, but a similar if 'fake' kind of exerience to meditation. By noticing such new states of consciousness we can learn that consciousness has wider bounds than we may have realised previously. This can lead to an interest in inner exploration and contemplation. This seems no bad thing in our physicalist society.

[Empty Dragon]

Thats very interesting as it contradicts all the scientific studies carried out by western medicine
How so?

I came across this in a meditation book I was reading. It was in the Faq's. "Can you do Daoist water meditation on Canabis"

Relaxing Into Being by B.K. Frantzis

Don't Forget it distorts the chi and impaires clarity. :D

[Blue_UK]

Wow - didn't see this thread.

I have done just about all the basic recreational drugs there are (except Heroin or Crack).

My opinions of recreational drugs have changed dramatically - I am no longer in favour.

As far as the psychedelics go, I have not taken enough to do my self (noticeable) damage. But I would strongly recommend not getting into cannabis or ecstasy. They made me a lot less intelligent. Specifically, in the memory department. I still think my logic is good, but the memory is certainly not as it was. This is highly irritating for someone who would like to make use his brain.

My mates who advocate their use always say:
Everything in moderation
But that means nothing more than:
Do everything in the amount that you should
It would be more useful to say:
If moderation is less than dosage then do not take the drug

Defining moderation to mean "the maximum amount which causes no noticable damage", and dosage to mean "the minimum amount which gives a desired effect".

[river-wind]

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
Yeah, I thought this is what you meant or maybe an adrenaline high as in xtreme sports...
I agree this is a viable alternative but it is not the same thing. I mean, taking a hit of acid and sitting down to meditate will definately not yield the same results. People do drugs even though they are dangerous because it gives a unique experience. I do not currently do drugs and I am not advocating them...just pointing out that there are definite, concrete reasons people do them.

I have gone through expiriences where the walls were melting, bubbling, things became pixelated and broke into peices. I flew, I frooze. I've been to mountain tops and sea bottoms. I have seen souls, and the silver threads which bind souls and worlds. I have forseen deaths, and felt the heat of the blood of peopleI've killed.

And I've only smoked pot twice (both times were after 90% of the above occured), and nothing harder than that. I don't drink more than a beer a month. Meditation kicks ass.

[river-wind]

Originally posted by Blue_UK

Defining moderation to mean "the maximum amount which causes no noticable damage", and dosage to mean "the minimum amount which gives a desired effect".

In medical terms:
LD=Lethal Dose
ED=Effective Dose


We should officially add a third classification, DD=Damage Dose

The LD of pot is huge (off the scale), but the DD is pretty close to the ED (bad). However, one must also keep in mind the differing levels of effect from different drugs. the ED of Extasy is much lower than that of pot, but it's effects are much stronger, and it's LD is dangerously low.