101 Zen Story Discussion Thread

[EvilPoet]

I thought perhaps separate threads would be less confusing for those who read the 101 Zen Story thread and want to disscuss the stories/koans, but it has come to my attention that this might not be the case [see here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11986&perpage=20&pagenumber=6)]. Please feel free to ignore this thread if you are more comfortable posting in the 101 Zen stories thread. Whichever thread you choose - all questions, comments, insights, etc. are welcome. :)

I will start ...

What is the sound of one hand?
Can you hear soundless sound?

[Dave the Druid]

Reflect.
what is, is
what is not, is not
find a place of silence and listen to is sound
then you will understand the sound of one hand
Dave the Druid
PS Hi Evilpoet a good start I hope!

[EvilPoet]

Hi Dave,

Wait ... shhh ...
can you hear it?

What silence!
The voice of the cicada
Penetrates the rocks
-Basho

[Dave the Druid]

To hear with in one's self is to hear the true sound.
Great Basho qutoe!
Dave the Druid

[EvilPoet]

I have to get going but I gatta ask ... Eve? Did I miss something?
Man oh man - guess I'm just having one of those days where
confusion reins, if you know what I mean. :bugeye:

Cya later,
EvilPoet

[Firefly]

Yeah, I never got that one.... So the sound of one habnd calpping is the sound of silence? Whats the moral? :confused:

[EvilPoet]

The moral? Well, koans are not really like that imo. Here are a couple of excerpts
from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones that I think expresses it far better than I can. :)

"What is the right answer to a koan? There are many right answers and there are also none. There is even a book in Japan, hard to come by, which gives proper answers to each of these mind-openers. What a joke! For the koan itself is the answer, and by the time there is a right answer to it Zen is dead."
-Pgs. 156-157

"Zen has many classic texts, of which this work is one. Mu-mon-kan ---literally, "no gate barrier"---was recorded by the Chinese master Ekai, also called Mumon, who lived from 1183 to 1260. The work consists of narrated relationships between ancient Chinese teachers and their pupils, illustrating means employed to sublimate the dualistic, outgoing, generalizing, intellectualizing tendencies of students in order that they might realize their true nature. The problems or inner challenges with which the masters confronted their pupils came to be called koans, and each of the following stories is a koan in itself. The stories use slang freely to actualize the highest teaching, the seeing into man's being. Occasional instances of apparent violence might be better interpreted as vigor and earnestness. None of the stories make any pretense at logic. They are dealing with states of mind rather than words. Unless this is understood, the point of the classic will be missed. The whole intent was to help the pupil break the shell of his limited mind and attain a second eternal birth, santoru, enlightenment. Each problem is a barrier. Those who have the spirit of Zen pass through it. Those who live in Zen understand one koan after another, each in his own way, as if they were seeing the unseen and living in the illimitable.

Mumon wrote the following words in the introduction to the work: Zen has no gates. The purpose of Buddha's words is to enlighten others. Therefore Zen should be gateless. Now, how does one pass through this gateless gate? Some say that whatever enters through a gate is not family treasure, that whatever is produced by the help of another is likely to dissolve and perish. Even such words are like raising waves in a windless sea or performing an operation upon a healthy body. If one clings to what others have said and tries to understand Zen by explanation, he is like a dunce who thinks he can beat the moon with a pole or scratch an itching foot from the outside of a shoe. It will be impossible after all." -Pgs. 158-161

[Dave the Druid]

You missed nothing I simply shortened your handle, sorry if I offended!:o

"Water which is too pure has no fish"
Ts'ai Ken T'an

See Ya Soon,
Dave the Druid

[Dave the Druid]

Firefly,
There is no true silence, even silence has a sound but what that sound is is different for each of us. I sense that you are probing deep waters when the fish you seek are close to the surface. Read the stories and koans think about them but don't dwell on them.
Dave the Druid:cool:

[EvilPoet]

No offense taken at all. I was just confused as to where the
name came from. Thanks for clarifying, much appreciated. :)

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet,
The sun rises over the sea
a village stirs in the light
birds fly in search of warmth

Dave the Druid

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Dave the Druid
Evilpoet,
The sun rises over the sea
a village stirs in the light
birds fly in search of warmth

Dave the Druid
So we're posting koans in this thread too?? :confused:

[Dave the Druid]

Please Forgive me!
I was posting a quick poem in response to Evilpoet. I didn't mean to clutter the thread. Sorry!
Dave the Druid:(

[EvilPoet]

Dave,

Nice poem, I liked it. It goes very well with my morning
cup of java. Thanks. I am curious, did you write it? :)

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet,
I thought it was morning for you, it was morning for me too. Yes, I wrote it. I'm glad you liked it.:D
Dave the Druid

[EvilPoet]

Breakfast enjoyed
in the fine company of
morning glories
-Basho

And of course, you're poem.
Thanks again. :D

Have a good one. Cya later.

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet,
Have an aware day, :D
I'll look for some interesting things to post.

Dave the Druid

[Dave the Druid]

The Wise Ones of Old

The wise ones of old had subtle wisdom
And depth of understanding,
So profound that they could not be understood.
Because they could not be understood,
I can only describe how they appeared in the world:

Cautious, like crossing a wintry stream,
Watchful, like one facing danger on every side,
Ceremonious, as one who pays a visit;
Yielding, like ice beginning to melt,
Genuine, like a piece of uncarved wood,
Open-minded, like a valley,
And mixing freely, like murky water.

Which of you can assume such murkiness,
To become in the end still and clear:
Which of you can make yourself still,
To become in the end full of life?
Those who possess this Tao do not try to
Fill themselves to the brim,
And because they do not try to
Fill themselves to the brim
They are like a garment that endures
All wear and need never be renewed.

— Lao Tzu
Combined translations from The Wisdom of Lao Tzu by Lin Yutang (1948)

Dave the Druid

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Dave the Druid
Please Forgive me!
I was posting a quick poem in response to Evilpoet. I didn't mean to clutter the thread. Sorry!
Dave the Druid:(
No no, I just meant, thought we were gonna do one koan at a time and discuss it. But you seem to just be posting them and moving on? :confused:

[Dave the Druid]

Firefly,
Please forgive me! I am more than happy to discuss anything posted, koan, storey or quote.
Did you read my Lao Tzu quote? I hope it helps.
Dave the Druid:)

[Firefly]

Yeah, I did read it - I like the imagery in the second part. The third part is the least clearest part for me, but I understand the general meaning. I think. :confused: (Dont try to be too clever)

[Dave the Druid]

Firefly,
Good for you if you understand the first two! :D
The third section speaks in part to the dual notions of being and not being that are one of the fundamental principles of zen. If its hard to grasp don't worry just look at it as 'this part is' and 'this part is not.'
Delving deeper, even 'what is' has a part that is 'what is not' AND 'what is not' has a part that is 'what is.' Visualize the dual nature displayed in the yin/yang circle.
Does that help without being too pedantic?:rolleyes:
Dave The Druid

[EvilPoet]

Firefly: I have to admit I am confused (again). I thought we
had already started to discuss a koan? You know, the sound
of one hand? Or is that not what you mean? Like I said, I am
confused. :confused:

Dave: Regarding Lao Tzu - one of my favs. :)

"Stop thinking, and end your problems."
-Lao Tzu

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet,
I'm glad you like the Lao Tzu. :D
Do you think my previous post helps to clarify the sound of silence topic?

Dave the Druid

[EvilPoet]

Dave,

Yes, I think it helps a lot. Thanks for posting it. :)

I have to say though - the silence we are discussing is
not easily explained, it must be experienced. I think
once the inside is free of all noise than silence can be
heard loud and clear, do you agree?

[Firefly]

Originally posted by EvilPoet
Firefly: I have to admit I am confused (again). I thought we
had already started to discuss a koan? You know, the sound
of one hand? Or is that not what you mean? Like I said, I am
confused. :confused:
Discussing the one too, though I kinda get it, in that silence is different to each listener. though when I think about it, I don't really get at all now. :confused: :( I think I'm thinking too hard ...

[EvilPoet]

Firefly,

Your doing fine imo, just keep at it. :)
I am curious - do you meditate?

[Dave the Druid]

Yes, absolutely!
I think a certain amout of meditation helps here at least that's how I came to the expirence.
Dave the Druid
:)

[EvilPoet]

I was going through some links that I had saved and
came across these. Thought I would pass them along.
Enjoy! :)


A Dialogue on Zen Koans (http://www.karate.butsu.net/onzen/zenkoans_dialogue.html)

Daily Zen (http://www.dailyzen.com)

Tricycle: Daily Dharma (http://www.tricycle.com/dailydharma/dailydharma.shtml)

Sacred Texts: Buddhism (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm)

[EvilPoet]

Lykan,

I really like this quote by William Blake: "If the doors of
perception were cleansed every thing would appear to
man as it is, infinite." - do you happen to know of a Zen
story/koan that fits it? If so, could you please post it? :)

[stray dog]

I came across this a while back;


" Zen in its essence is the art of seeing into the nature of one's
own being, and it points the way from bondage to freedom.
By making us drink right from the fountain of life, it liberates us
from all the yokes under which we finite beings are usually
suffering in this world. "

Daisetz T. Suzuki
(1870-1966)
Japanese professor of philosophy

from; Zen Buddhism (1956)

[EvilPoet]

Very nice quote stray dog, thanks for posting it. I enjoyed
reading Essays in Zen Buddhism, lots of food for thought
imo. :)

Here is another quote that I like:

"When the cloud of ignorance disappears, the infinity of the
heavens is manifested, where we see for the first time into
the nature of our own being." -D. T. Suzuki

[stray dog]

EvilPoet,

that is beautiful... and so important.

Thanks again for the Zen fix, I have been too busy
lately to take time to reflect on where I am in my life,
your postings have been a pleasure.

[EvilPoet]

stray dog,

You are very welcome for the Zen fix, thank you for the kind words.
I know what you mean about being busy, it does seem to be difficult
to find the calm amidst the storm of life. I think taking a step back to
get some perspective now and again is important, but as with most
things along these lines, it is much easier said than done. :)

Take care,
EvilPoet

[Dave the Druid]

Welcome Stray Dog and Good morning Evilpoet,
I try to incorporate a little zen into every day. Even if it's small things like watching the wind in the trees or noticing the pattern of clouds.

Snow falls loudly on
Silent ground groaning
Snow plow covers parked car

Dave the Druid
:)

[Firefly]

Originally posted by EvilPoet
Your doing fine imo, just keep at it. :)
I am curious - do you meditate?
No. I've tried but it doens't really work. Maybe I'm trying too hard though! :rolleyes:

[Dave the Druid]

Firefly,
Good on you for trying!:D
If I might suggest, relaxation is part of meditation. Try this, concentrate on something simple, say a single flower and allow yourself to relax as you consider the flower in it's entirety.

I came to meditate from the martial arts but went deeper after I started my own joruney down the path. I know take time to meditate a little each day.

This link might help, and also check out the links that Evilpoet posted. They are good resources.


http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/Daily-Zen-Sutras.html


Dave the Druid:)

[EvilPoet]

Good Morning Dave,

Your poem reminds me of the time I lived in Michigan (about 5 yrs ago). I remember many a winter morning being awakened by the sound of a snowplow as it crashed through the morning silence. Sort of a curse and a blessing at the same time, if you know what I mean. ;)

I noticed that you made mention of wind, clouds and trees in the other thread, imo nature has a lot to say if only we would sit down and listen. It also reminded me a Chinese proverb: In nature there are unexpected storms; in life there are unpredictable vicissitudes.

Thanks for the poem, this one also goes very well with my morning cup of java. :D

[EvilPoet]

Firefly,

Are you interested in meditating? If not, that might be the problem right there. If so, it is like trying to understand the koans/stories, sometimes it take awhile. I know this stuff can be frustrating, just keep at it and you will be fine imo. If you haven't already, you might want to check out this thread (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8521). :)

[Dave the Druid]

Good morning Evilpoet:D
I felt a little guilty about that poem, not my best effort.
I do enjoy the natural aspect and connectedness of zen. It helps me to be more attentive to the world.
Dave the Druid

[EvilPoet]

Dave,

Well, it might not be your best effort iyo but
imo it is still very good food for thought. ;)

[Dave the Druid]

Thanks for your kind words:o
I am honored.
How are my suggestions for meditating sounding?

Dave the Druid

[EvilPoet]

Your suggestions for meditating sound great. I have often
pondered the various aspects of a flower as well as other
things in nature, very enlightening imo. I have something
I want to post, but I have to dig it out first. So, for now, I
bid you farewell. :)

[Dave the Druid]

Farewell? How about until later, farewell sounds so final.
How about, I'll expect you when I see you.

The real challenge in meditation is focusing on nothing and then examining it as it's own entity. Still nature is a pretty good subject to consider.

The snow having melted,
the village
is full of children. - Issa

Dave The Druid ;)

[Dave the Druid]

Hey all!
Check out this link, you might find it of use.

http://www.buddhanet.net/


Dave the Druid

[Dave the Druid]

Firefly,
this link might help you with meditation.

http://www.buddhanet.net/meditation.htm

If you have questions don't hesitate to ask. I'm willing to help/share insights and I think Evilpoet would help too.

Dave the Druid:)

[EvilPoet]

Dave,

I understand where you are coming from, I certainly didn't mean
for it to sound final in any way. It's just that, well, I think farewell
sounds so much more poetic than goodbye. ;)

Thanks for posting the BuddhaNet link, excellent resource imo. You
are correct, I'm more than happy to help in any way I can if I can.
All ya gatta do is ask. I have to get going after my next post, the
faucet in the shower is broken and needs tending to. I hope you
have a great rest of your day. :)

Those falling blossoms
all return to the branch when
I watch butterflies
-Moritake

Till next time,
EvilPoet

[Dave the Druid]

Good luck with the plumbing! ;)


A roof was leaking in the temple. The master asked 2 students to get someting with which to capture the water. The first student returned with a vessel with which to catch the water. Tha master threw the vessel so that it broke. This puzzled the first student. The second student arrived with a basket. The master was pleased with the second student It was at this moment that the first student became enlightened.


Dave the Druid

;)

[EvilPoet]

I thought you guys might enjoy this little bit of mind food.
It's from Zen Fables For Today by Richard McLean.
Bon Appetit! :D

Visualizing Buddhism as an Elegant Buffet

One of the marvels of Buddhism is that interested parties don't have to make a religious commitment. It can be used as a relevant ethical system or a functional self-help device or provide new ways to cope with our complex society. Or Buddhism can become a nourishing spiritual path. At all levels this multitiered system proves enriching. Imagine Buddhism as an elegant buffet with these choices:

Just cruising the dessert tray
Enjoy the amusing anecdotes as well as chomping on the rich nuggets of wisdom. Leaves a lingering sweet taste.

Digging into the salad bar
Discover pragmatic solutions to everyday problems. Find old ideas that are as fresh as tomatoes picked in the field that morning.

Pigging out on favorite pastas
Put into use tested techniques for modifying consciousness and behavior. Have adventures as exciting as finding a new Italian restaurant.

Filling up on brain food
Find insights into different systems of philosophy and thought. Discover that Eastern thought is a different from Western thought as seafood is from meat.

Dining on heavy-duty meats
Tackle new ways of dealing with profound questions such as: Who am I? What is my place in the universe? And how do I reconcile with my own mortality? Protein stuff!

Buying a meal ticket and becoming a regular
Buddhism may open a new journey into spirituality. No, it isn't necessary to shave your head and find a begging bowl. Buddhism is as much a religion of the world as a religion of the monastery. Ask the millions of practitioners!

-Pgs. 18-19

[Dave the Druid]

Brilliant! :D

Great stuff Evilpoet, Now I'm hungry.


Dave the Druid
;)

[Firefly]

Originally posted by EvilPoet
Are you interested in meditating? If not, that might be the problem right there. ... If you haven't already, you might want to check out this thread (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8521). :)
you guys post too fast. :eek: I am interested in meditating, but I think I see where I've been going wrong, so when I get another chance, I'll try it differently. I'm following that thread, though don't always have the patience to read all of the ... denser posts. :o

I've been to Buddha.net, copied a lot of stuff from there, cos it was so helpful. :)

I like this:
The snow having melted,
the village
is full of children. - Issa
It' nice, simple, and yet I'm guessing there's a deeper meaning too (which I have yet to grasp :rolleyes: :) )

[EvilPoet]

Firefly,

I agree, BuddhaNet is very helpful. Good luck the next time you
try meditating, if you are so inclined let us know how it went. :)

As far as haiku goes, I think this quote by Bruce Lansky (http://www.gigglepoetry.com/poetryclass/Haiku.html)
sums it up quite nicely:

"Haiku poetry is a very short, centuries-old form of Japanese
poetry that is an intriguing change of pace from the kind of
rhythmic, rhyming poetry you're used to reading. Haiku is like
a photo that captures the essence of what's happening, often
connecting two seemingly unrelated things."

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet,
Excellent read on Haiku. There are some forms that are just too funny and should be enjoyed for the moment they capture.

Dave the Druid
;)

[Dave the Druid]

I'll slow down.
Perhaps the best way to start is with the smaller bits. Although that said, it is possible to spend one's life totally focused on those in an effort to gain understanding.

Either way, enjoy!

Dave the Druid

[Firefly]

lol, you don't have to slow down just cos I can't get on a computer enough! Besides, it's interesting read what's been written. The more written, the more potential for me to learn! ;)

[Dave the Druid]

Ok, I'll keep at it. If you need a deeper(?) explanation I will endevor to keep it clear. Sound good?
Dave the Druid:)

[Firefly]

Sounds great. If I have a query, I'll post it here. :)

[Dave the Druid]

Firefly,
ok it's time to grow. Smile and embrace your subject.

The path to inner discovery resides in the world around us.

Dave the Druid

:)

[EvilPoet]

Firefly,

Sounds great to me too. :)

I thought you might enjoy
this haiku by Bassho:

Through frozen rice fields,
moving slowly on horseback,
my shadow creeps by

Take care,
EvilPoet

[EvilPoet]

Dave,

"There are some forms that are just too funny
and should be enjoyed for the moment they
capture"

I totally agree. :D

Just beyond the gate,
a neat yellow hole---
someone pissed in the snow
-Issa

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Evilpoet!
I will try to balance humour with the serious stuff. Just the serious gets boring and how many belief systems encourage laughing ? ;)
Dave the Druid

[EvilPoet]

Hi Dave :)

I don't know about other belief systems but
Buddism does. Thought you guys might enjoy
this link: http://www.dharmathecat.com

I saved an article about Buddhism and laughter.
If I can find it I will post it. You know what they
say, "laughter is the best medicine." ;)

Gatta get going. Cya later.

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet,
Not to belabour the point but Zen is a branch of Buddism.:D

Laugh at least once a day, it's good for you.

Dave the Druid ;)

[EvilPoet]

Like a tree, Buddhism has many branches. ;)

[EvilPoet]

Sitting quietly, doing nothing,
Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.
-Zenrin poem

"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps
of the wise. Seek what they sought."
-Basho

[stray dog]

feeding my thoughts...

To know men is to be wise;
To know one's self is to be illumined.

Lao-Tze

[EvilPoet]

:) One more for the road ...

"Conquering others is power,
Conquering oneself is strength;"
-Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

[Dave the Druid]

South of my house and north - all spring there is water.
Day after day I watch flocks of gulls return.
Fallen petals on my path are never swept for guests,
And only now is the thatched gate opened - for you.
Food so far from market must be simple;
The wine in this poor house is home brewed.
If you are willing, we'll drink with my old neighbor.
Let me call across the fence before we drain the last cup.
- Du Fu

Dave the Druid
;)

[Dave the Druid]

A student went to his meditation teacher and said, "My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I'm constantly falling asleep. It's just horrible!"
"It will pass," the teacher said matter-of-factly.

A week later, the student came back to his teacher. "My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It's just wonderful!'

"It will pass," the teacher replied matter-of-factly

Dave the Druid


:)

[Firefly]

lol at the last one. :D I hope my confusion for them passes as well! ;)

Originally posted by EvilPoet
Firefly,

Sounds great to me too. :)

I thought you might enjoy
this haiku by Bassho:

Through frozen rice fields,
moving slowly on horseback,
my shadow creeps by

Take care,
EvilPoet
Why did you think I'd like that one in particular? I do though, but not entirely sure I get it. (What a surprise :rolleyes: )

Though it's wierd, I think I'm already starting to think and subconsciously respond to these koans in a slightly different manner. Which is wierd, cos I've still to see some progress...

[Firefly]

Originally posted by stray dog
To know men is to be wise;
To know one's self is to be illumined.

I definately get that one; after all buddhism, meditation etc is about your mind, nobody elses. Agree?

Conquering others is power,
Conquering oneself is strength;"

My first thought was I understood this one as well, but then I thought... The second premise, especially the word "conquering" seems to indicate that to conquer, one must first fight?

[spookz]

Conquering others is power,
Conquering oneself is strength

conquering others could be done by deceitful tactics as well as the more obvious physical method (fight)

conquering oneself is usually accomplished by mental discipline. i guess you could use fight as in "i had to fight with myself not to take the last slice of cake"

:D

just silly semantical distinctions really

[EvilPoet]

Firefly,

"Why did you think I'd like that one in particular?"

No reason in particular. I just thought the imagery was cool in it, thought you might too. I didn't mean to confuse you again. :(

"Though it's wierd, I think I'm already starting to think and subconsciously respond to these koans in a slightly different manner."

Don't you consider that progress?

"My first thought was I understood this one as well, but then I thought... The second premise, especially the word "conquering" seems to indicate that to conquer, one must first fight?"

I'm wondering - is this translation any clearer?

Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.

[EvilPoet]

What did a Buddhist say to the hot dog vendor?

[spookz]

more ketchup please?

:)

seriously evil i have no idea

[EvilPoet]

Nope ... make me one with everything. :D

Then you know what happened?

The hot dog vender made the Buddhist his hot dog which he paid for with a 10 dollar bill. He waited patiently for the change but to no avail. Finally the Buddhist said, "Excuse me, may I please have my change?" The hot vender replied, "But, sir, change comes from within."

[stray dog]

"To accuse others for one's own misfortunes
is a sign of want of education; to accuse oneself
shows that one's education has begun; to accuse
neither oneself nor others shows that one's
education is complete."

Epictetus
(c. 50-120 A.D.)
Greek Stoic philosopher living in Rome

[stray dog]

Hey, I can use that one about the hot dog vendor,

Thanks!

[EvilPoet]

You're welcome. :)

[Dave the Druid]

Happiness is the lack of want, and or the study of buddhist humour.

:D

[EvilPoet]

What happens if you want Buddist humor? Is that bad?

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Evilpoet!;)
What happens if you want Buddist humor? Is that bad?
Not at all. Laughter is as much a part of life as anything else and should be explored. Consider meditating and breaking out laughing. LOL

Dave the Druid
:D

[EvilPoet]

Hi Dave :)

Whew! I'm so glad you said that. Thanks for the
suggestion on meditating, I will definitely take it into
consideration. I take it this meditation is best done
on the floor? You know, for safety reasons? ;)

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet,;)
the floor beats falling out of your chair. That reminds me of a storey about becoming enlightened but I forget it right now.
Laugh it's good for you.
Dave the Druid
:D

[EvilPoet]

Dave,

Yup, I agree laughing is good for you. Seeing as I have had the experience of falling out of a chair before I also agree with you on that too. NO fun at all imo. Paul's Law: You can't fall off the floor. Speaking of laughter, I'm still looking for that article on Buddhism and laughter, which is why I haven't posted it yet. I forgot where I put so it might take awhile. You know how it goes (I hope). :D

I have a request, if you wouldn't mind, could you post the story when you remember?

And on that note, I have to get going. Have a good one everyone. :cool:

Cya later,
EvilPoet

[EvilPoet]

"I tell people to get to know themselves. Some people think this means what beginners observe, and consider it easy to understand. Reflect more carefully, in a more leisurely manner---what do you call self?"

-Zen Master Foyan

[EvilPoet]

Labels and Objective Truth

"Because you grasp labels and slogans, you are hindered by
those labels and slogans, both those used in ordinary life and
those considered sacred. Thus they obstruct your perception of
objective truth and you cannot understand clearly."
-Zen Master Linji, Zen Essence

Objective Perception and Understanding

"If you want to perceive and understand objectively, just don't
allow yourself to be confused by people. Detach from whatever
you find inside or outside yourself---detach from religion, tradition,
and society, and only then will you attain liberation. When you are
not entangled in things, you pass through freely to autonomy."
-Zen Master Linji, Zen Essence

Peace and Quiet

"When you have attained mental and physical peace and quiet,
don't get stuck in peace and quiet. Be independent and free, like
a gourd rolling and bobbing on a river."
-Zen Master Dahui, Zen Essence

[Firefly]

Originally posted by EvilPoet
I'm wondering - is this translation any clearer?

Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.
Ah yes, I see it much better now. :) Wow, I think I am progressing! :)

[Dave the Druid]

Firefly,
Well done! Sometimes it's the small things that lead to enlighenment. I am still looking for those storeys that end with 'and he was enlightened' but when I find them I will post.

Dave the Druid

:)

[EvilPoet]

Firefly,

I am glad that translation was clearer. In my opinion, clarity is
very important and should be sought as much as possible. :D

Some food for thought ...

"Buddhism is so vast and sophisticated that it is difficult to fully
understand all the Buddha's teachings, and see the results
through practice and cultivation. Be determined and persistent.
Do not give up or retreat." -Buddhism In A Nutshell (http://www.buddhistdoor.com/passissue/9602/sources/teach.htm)

[Empty Dragon]

Which is wierd, cos I've still to see some progress...Ah yes, I see it much better now. Wow, I think I am progressing FireFly...it will pass.:D

[EvilPoet]

A student went to his meditation teacher and said, "My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I'm constantly falling asleep. It's just horrible!"

"It will pass," the teacher said matter-of-factly.

A week later, the student came back to his teacher. "My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It's just wonderful!"

"It will pass," the teacher replied matter-of-factly.

Source: Zen Stories To Tell Your Neighbors (http://www.rider.edu/users/suler/zenstory/willpass.html)

[EvilPoet]

Talking About Zen

"Talking about Zen all the time is like looking for fish tracks
in a dry riverbed." -Zen Master Wuzu, Zen Essence

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet,
"Talking about Zen all the time is like looking for fish tracks
That said should we refocus our discussion? Perhaps discuss a specific storey until it's over done and not not quote the old sources but give our take on the readings. Or am I being too serious.

Dave the Druid ;)

[Firefly]

Yeah, that's what I thought this thread was going to be about!

[EvilPoet]

Dave,

I think we should just go with the flow and not worry about it. ;)

Going with the Flow

A Taoist story tells of an old man who accidentally fell into the river rapids leading to a high and dangerous waterfall. Onlookers feared for his life. Miraculously, he came out alive and unharmed downstream at the bottom of the falls. People asked him how he managed to survive. "I accommodated myself to the water, not the water to me. Without thinking, I allowed myself to be shaped by it. Plunging into the swirl, I came out with the swirl. This is how I survived."

Source: Zen Stories To Tell Your Neighbors (http://www.rider.edu/users/suler/zenstory/goflow.html)

[Dave the Druid]

I just prefer posting where the original quote is so that there is continuity ( for me at least ). Quote and stack the responses.

Dave the Druid

:)

[EvilPoet]

Like my note says: "If you want to discuss this story or any
other story you can post in this thread or over here in this
thread."

Either here or over there, doesn't make any difference imo.
Whichever is better for you guys. I'll just go with the flow. ;)

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet, ;)
Thanks for that! I started to loose the plot on the humor postings so I'll just reply when I think it'll do any good.

Dave the Druid
:D

[EvilPoet]

Dave,

Sounds good to me. :D

[Dave the Druid]

Evilpoet, ;)
Peace and harmony to you

Dave The Druid

:D

[EvilPoet]

Robert Wilson: What is Zen?

Alan Watts: [Soft chuckling.]

Robert Wilson: Would you care to enlarge on that?

Alan Watts: [Loud laughing.]

-Zen and the Beat Way

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Evilpoet! ;)


The body is the tree of enlightenment
the mind like a clear mirror stand
time and gain wipe it diligently
don't let it gather dust
Shenxiu

This seems a good one.
Dave the Druid
:D

[EvilPoet]

Hi Dave :)

Yes, I agree it is a good one. Thanks for posting it. I think movement in general is a good thing. You know, so things don't stagnate. Allow me to quote Confused Dish:

"Movement is a good thing. It keeps things ebbing and flowing as they supposed to. No movement, stagnation, only brings a lot of pain and misery in the long run. Not to mention, a horrible case of fungus that is very difficult to get rid of. As Publilius Syrus once said, 'A rolling stone gathers no moss.' "

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Evilpoet;)
Move with the purposefulness of water as it runs to the sea

Dave the Druid ;)

[EvilPoet]

I don't know, you will have to ask Confused Dish. ;)

"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it."
-A River Runs Through it

[EvilPoet]

The Inner Gaze

"You should turn your attention within---don't memorize
my words. You have been turning from light to darkness
since before you can remember, so the roots of your
subjective ideas are deep and hard to uproot all at once.
This is why I temporarily use expedients to take away your
coarse perceptions." -Zen Master Yangshan

Moon and Clouds

"The original Buddha-nature of all living beings is like the bright
moon in the sky---it is only because it is covered by floating
clouds that it cannot appear." -Zen master Fenyang

[Dave the Druid]

Are all the quotes we study just so much noise? Are they not instructive? Do they not show ways to the Path?

Perhaps the words are as fleeting as clouds over the face of the moon, as we understand the words they part and all that remains is the illumination of the moon.

Dave the Druid

;)

[EvilPoet]

"As soon as you try to chase and grab Zen, you've
already stumbled past it." -Zen Master Yuanwu

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Evilpoet! ;)

The very nature of Zen is to grasp at clouds. It both attainable and unatinable. The closer to the path we are the farther we are from it.

Dave the Druid


:D

[EvilPoet]

"If you seek, how is that different from pursuing
sound and form? If you don't seek, how are you
different from earth, wood, or stone? You must
seek without seeking." -Zen Master Foyan

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Evilpoet
If in seeking we can't find and if in not seeking we won't find; then what is the Way? They Way is all around us and in each of us seek within yourself first then the look beyond you may see it.

Dave the Druid

;)

[EvilPoet]

We are fish in the ocean of Tao. ;)

Tao and the Ocean

Once upon a time, a young fish asked an old fish: "Everyone talks
about this thing they call 'ocean.' What the heck is it?"

The older and wiser fish answered: "The ocean is this thing that
surrounds you on all sides."

The younger fish didn't understand: "There's nothing around me!
Why can I not see this 'ocean?'"

"Of course you cannot," the old fish was patient. "The ocean is
both inside and outside of you. You were born in the ocean and
chances are you will die in it. The ocean flows around you, just as
your own skin does."

Confucius once said, "Fish forget they live in water; people forget
they live in the Tao." We all live in the ocean of Tao. It flows over
us; it is within us and all around us. It enfolds us like our own
skin, and yet we cannot perceive it... indeed, most of us have no
idea what it is. Let us think of Tao as the universal flow of reality.
This will take us another step toward true understanding of Tao.

Source: Tao Stories (http://www.greattao.org/english/2002-05.htm)

[EvilPoet]

Looking For The Shortcut

When you have even a single thought of looking for
a shortcut in Zen, you have already stuck your head
in a bowl of glue." -Zen Master Dahui, Zen Essence


Artificial Zen

"You are luckily all right by yourself, yet you struggle
artificially. Why do you want to put on fetters and go
to prison? You are busy every day claiming to study
Zen, learn the Way, and interpret Buddhism, but this
alienates you even further. It is just chasing sound
and form. When will you ever stop?"
-Zen Master Dazhu, Zen Essence

[Dave the Druid]

Hi Evil poet;)
I am begining to think that all this quoting is detracting from the true Zen.


Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The farther you go, the less you know.

Thus the sage knows without traveling;
He sees without looking;
He works without doing.
-Lao Tzu

Dave the Druid

:D

[EvilPoet]

"True Zen consists of sitting quietly in the correct posture. It is not a special state, it is the normal state: silent, peaceful, without agitation. Zen means to put the mind at rest and to concentrate the mind and body. In zazen there is no purpose, no seeking to gain something, no special effort or imagination. It is not knowledge to be grasped by the brain. It is solely a practice, a practice which is the true gate to happiness, peace and freedom."
-Taisen Deshimaru Roshi (http://home.gnofn.org/~aza/whatiszen.html )

[EvilPoet]

Avoiding Foxes and Dogs

"The basic essential nature inherent in all people is clearly evident when you constantly percieve it within yourself; if you pursue external objects, then it becomes obscured; you get confused and are not awake. That is why people of old would look into a saying --- immediately attention is gathered on one point, and you are not drawn by the external world. Eventually the world is forgotten and objects disappear; then the original inherent light naturally comes through revealed.

If you arbitrarily start trying to figure the saying out, you immediately enter a mistaken path. If you want to ask other people, that too increases your confusion and distress. Therefore the method of looking into a saying is just to keep your mind on it, with a feeling of doubt that does not dissipate. Great doubt results in great enlightenment, small doubt results in smaller enlightenment. This is an established fact.

People nowadays are unwilling to look into sayings; they just get together in groups to discuss this and that saying as being thus and so, calling it great enlightenment when they've managed to explain them clearly. Since the teachers have no true insight, when they see a resemblance in the words of others, they give them useless stamps of approval, saying they are people of attainment. The teachers and their followers are engaging in a mutual deception, defrauding each other.

This is why the way of Zen today has deteriorated and died out, while gangs of foxes and packs of dogs claim honor everywhere, fooling the whole world. They will go to hell like an arrow shot. If you want to study Zen, be sure not to fall into the company of those gangs of devils."

-Yuan-hsien, Teachings of Zen