Meditation: Water or Fire

[Empty Dragon]

Water flows effotlessly though obstacles, does not force. When the circumstances are right it moves.
Fire jumps for point to point consuming and pushing further and further. It is a stressed movement that can burn out at any moment if fuel is not available.

Fire and Water can be equally as powerfull.

What do you see being the philosophy of your meditation system: Fire or Water or something else?

[Zero]

How about Stone? Seed?

[spookz]

when i think meditation. i cease all thought or at least attempt to do so by focusing back on the breath. am i supposed to have a philosophy? imagery in meditation for me is a distraction

the above may or may not relate to the topic

[Adam]

Water does force, and fire does flow.

I have no "system". I think you have been reading too many pop culture books on "mysticism".

[BLASTOFF]

in meditation you dont force a thought you go to a place if you want to within your own mind, meditation is a place not asleep and not awake, to meditate properly you need to be aware of your surroundings, but not in the same way as if you where awake.

[EvilPoet]

I don't have a philosophy or system - I just meditate. :)

[Nascere]

I meditate everyday. I don't try to hard tho, feel my breathing, expand and contract with it. After a while its like im floating in emptiness and i'm aware of my surroundings but not the physical, i try to notice the emptiness around me and then it starts feeling like my breathing is in harmony with the emptiness around me along with my body, , me and the darkness seem to be one, expanding and contracting, we're pusling, im the heart and the dark is the body ...
i dont know if that makes sense but i tried

after awhile when im in the rythmn , things start to change, i start coming back to reality only to feel my head pounding my chest thumping , my sping tingling. I pay attention to them one by one until everything is one. Then i start to float to outerspace...

[Empty Dragon]

Water does force, and fire does flow. I have no "system". I think you have been reading too many pop culture books on "mysticism".

It is a philsophy of meditation. Straight out fire pushs past points and levels forcefully. Water gently flows when the time is right.
It is just the style and amount of effort used. Traditionaly in Taoist water meditation you only use 70% of your effort. While Fire you use 100% and force yourself as hard as you can.

when i think meditation. i cease all thought or at least attempt to do so by focusing back on the breath. am i supposed to have a philosophy? imagery in meditation for me is a distraction Some people use sounds, some imagery and some feeling. Its your meditation.

I personally prefer the water method.

[Adam]

Points, levels, and numerical values? Dude, you're entirely missing the point.

[Empty Dragon]

What is your point then Adam?

[Adam]

Forget about points, levels. systems, and percentages. Perhaps go and dig some holes and fill them in again.

[Empty Dragon]

Are you talking about being disatached? Becoming bound to a certain way of doing things?

Cause I am talking about technique.

Please elaborate further I'm not getting your meaning?

[Adam]

I am saying that being concerned with systems, methods, percentages, levels, and points will not do anything for you. Many people find that mind-numbing labour removes all conscious thoughts such as your normal daily concerns and fears and more, and leaves the mind in an empty or "void" state which is pretty much what you will get from any "system" of meditation. But don't go out there and dig and be thinking constantly "Am I there yet? Is this it?" because you'll never get there. Just dig.

Or perhaps you already do reach that state now and then, by this system of yours. If so, congratulations.

[Empty Dragon]

I am saying that being concerned with systems, methods, percentages, levels, and points will not do anything for you.

I agree. I think you missunderstand what I mean by Fire and Water and why I bring it up.

Taoist Fire meditation: Neo-Taoism- Forcefull breath, muscle contractions..... Ridged thoughts, more of a structured system, master disciple relationship.

Taoist Water Meditation: Hakuna Mattata!!! Relaxed thoughs, Relaxed body, Relaxed focus, Relaxed buddy buddy teacher relationship...mellow

The systems are really just combinations of techinques. The Water system is more "Mieh what ever works for you".

Many people find that mind-numbing labour removes all conscious thoughts such as your normal daily concerns and fears and more, and leaves the mind in an empty or "void" state which is pretty much what you will get from any "system" of meditation

I see a big difference from being mindless and being still. Mindless is to have your focus numbed. Being still is to be empty while mindfull and aware.

[Drop]

May someone can tell me which are water and which fire methods? I mean, from all most known practises today - various types of buddhism (zen, theravada, mahayana, ....), various types of yoga (hatha, kriya, swara, nada, nidra, laya, bhakti ..... and many more), relaxation techniques, visualization techniques, mantras, yantras, work with energies, maybe also practices with drugs (haluciogenes) - altough today this practice is not widespread - in correct way....

Thanks:cool:

[Drop]

Hmm...I posted equal message twice because of my pc, and don't know how to delete one...

[Diode-Man]

Meditation involves the "water of your blood" and the "fire of your heart/mind."

General living could be compared to the fire, dreamless sleep is the ultimate water. Meditation is the act of balancing these two. The best meditation involves going into controlled/lucid dreaming without falling into dreamless sleep, it is a delicate balance indeed.

[Carcano]

It is just the style and amount of effort used. Traditionaly in Taoist water meditation you only use 70% of your effort. While Fire you use 100% and force yourself as hard as you can.

If you are making an 'effort' you are not in meditation.

Most of what people call meditation are really concentration techniques.

[Eidolan]

I guess you could say I use water.

[cosmictraveler]

I only need my mind and nothing else. ;)

[EmptyForceOfChi]

There is not only one single way to meditate, there are different types of meditation maybe people should describe the way/s they meditate. Meditation to me is used many ways and I used to do it for various reasons. from the Daoist elemental meditations and yoga relaxation ones, zen contemplation and certain warrior preperation and focus types.

Some people visualise and focus, some contemplate/philosophise, some try to attain oneness with reality/dao, some try to remain thoughtless and timeless, some try enter into mental astro plains of existence outside of the bodys limitations, meditation is somewhat individual but does have certain requirements i guess.


peace.

[EndLightEnd]

When I meditate I focus energy toward the pineal gland, and try to clear my mind of all thoughts.

I normally do this by repeating something like "Let mind be before thought", or just focus on my breathing.

I tend to get visuals, anyone else experience this?

[greenberg]

If you are making an 'effort' you are not in meditation.

Most of what people call meditation are really concentration techniques.

The meaning of terms depends on which tradition or teachings about meditation one follows.


Generally, if you are a Buddhist and you are meditating, then you are efforting and there is nothing wrong with that, for Right Effort is part of the Eightfold Path.

[greenberg]

Water flows effotlessly though obstacles, does not force. When the circumstances are right it moves.
Fire jumps for point to point consuming and pushing further and further. It is a stressed movement that can burn out at any moment if fuel is not available.

Fire and Water can be equally as powerfull.

What do you see being the philosophy of your meditation system: Fire or Water or something else?

This seems to refer to the instructions the Buddha gave Rahula on how to meditate (MN 62 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html)) - to make his mind like earth, water, fire, wind or space. Earth does not become excited when fragrant things fall on it, nor does it become disgusted when ugly things fall on it. And so on for the other elements.