Book of Mormon: true or false?

[WildBlueYonder]

I feel that current studies of DNA, linguistics, etc. will disprove the Mormon theory that Native Americans are descendant from the 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel'. I do not believe this theory, because except for the Vikings, there's no real evidence that any other culture had an impact on any Native American tribe, until Columbus. No stories, no place names, no family names, no words or languages, no foods, no writing, no art, no animals, no technology, no resistance to diseases, no genetic trace.
Any tribe exposed to advanced cultures, usually takes up aspects of it. Look at what happened in New Guinea and Polynesia. Recently in southern Africa they were able to prove that the Lemba are Jewish descendents. Using gene studies of the Y chromosome, they followed the priestly Aaronic-line of males (cohen = priest). And the genes matched Jews from Israel and the Diaspora. The Lemba also had stories that they were Jewish, had Kosher-type laws and other customs. Yet they were as black as any other African, in other words they looked native! If the stories in the Book of Mormon are to be believed, this would also be true of Native Americans, if they were Jewish as the Mormons claim, you could trace their genetic makeup, customs and stories. It should be provable.

My point is, since it seems that most Indians are majority 'B' blood type and belong to A, B, C, & D halogroups; it would be simple to correlate the blood types and halogroups that the majority of Asiatic, Israeli & Diaspora Jews belongs to. If anyone has that data, they could prove the Mormon theory one way or another.

Another point is, that any one coming over to the Western Hemisphere with iron, steel or shipbuilding technology would have made a huge impact on stone-age people. Which, except for precious metals and some copper and tin, there's no evidence that any tribe was other that stone age. Anybody with metal swords would have become kings or great warriors of myth, under any of the warrior cultures, (which the Mayans, Aztecs, & Incas were). These swords would have been treasured and handed down for generations, sort of like the Arthurian legend of England. There should be words in common, for those tribes that came in contact with Europeans or Asians. When white, black or yellow peoples first showed up here in the Western Hemisphere, they should have been called mythological names that could be traced to their homelands, (like 'Israelotl', 'Neftiotl', or 'Moronotl', etc, not Quetzalcoatl = Feathered Serpent). They should also have had elephants, horses, etc. in their art or if they were kosher in their art also, at least Stars of David, pomegranates, olive branches or other popular Israelite motifs.
They should have common writing, which except for a few Mesoamerican tribes (the Olmec & Mayan glyphs and Aztec picture drawing), there is no evidence that that any Native American tribe used writing. There has to be some tangible evidence.

Mormons, that claim that the Native American Indians are descendant from the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel", say that all the ancient monuments and cities are the result of an ancient war by these 'Lost Tribes', which left them without any knowledge of their past, and because of their evil, turned them into dark-skinned people!!??
I do not agree with this belief, and as a Mexican (mixed Indian & Spanish blood), I find it culturally imperialistic to think that Native peoples needed any outside help to develop these ancient sites. I also think, that any reference to "Lost Tribes" is in error, since I think that any descendents of the Assyrian Captivity stayed on in the remnants of that empire, lived as Jews there (so they were not ‘lost’), up until the founding of the modern State of Israel, when they immigrated to Israel from present-day Syria, Iraq & Iran (the borders of the old Assyrian Empire).

As an example, I would like to point out this: look at the Mexican people, a mixture of Spanish & Indian blood. The Spanish dialect spoken by Mexicans, has Aztec & other Indian words in it. Mexican food, has Spanish & native foods mixed together. Mexican art & architecture, are a mixture of European & Indian styles. Why? Because there was definite, provable historical contact.

Anyway, there is usually proof left, the Vikings left long houses, bones and stories.
All the other claimants didn't leave a thing. Why would people believe that others had influenced the Native American tribes (like Africans, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Chinese, Atlanteans, etc.)? Probably because it was wishful thinking or speculation on the part of the early European settlers & present-day mythmakers. Maybe because they wanted to see people like themselves here, so that they would feel they belonged here (entitled to the land & therefore not stealing it) or because they could not believe that 'savages' could ever build civilizations like the Mayas or Incas?

By the way, here are some links that may be of interest to you:

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/
On the ‘Lost Tribes of Israel’
Original broadcast date: 02/22/2000

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/
On ‘Kennewick Man’
Original broadcast date: 02/15/2000

http://www.chattanooga.net/cita/mtdna.html
On ‘Geneticist's Work On DNA’
excerpts from the ‘Wall Street Journal’, 10 September 1993 p 1, col. 1

http://www.nmnh.si.edu/anthro/outreach/indian_l.htm
On ‘Pre-columbian Native American writing’

http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmnh/origin.htm
On ‘Paleoamerican Origins’

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/bom/manuscripts_eom.htm
On ‘Book of Mormon manuscripts’

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/programs/2202_vikings.html
On 'Vikings in America'
Original broadcast: January 24, 1995

If any of this interests you, you have any contrary or correlating data, or you can respond in any way with ideas, arguments, etc., please do!!!

[EvilPoet]

By Patty Henetz
The Associated Press

SALT LAKE CITY — An Edmonds Community College instructor with
Mormon family roots says he will probably be excommunicated next
week for articles he has written questioning the validity of the Book
of Mormon.

Thomas W. Murphy, 35, published an article in the May Signature
Books anthology "American Apocrypha," which uses genetic data
to discredit the Book of Mormon claim that American Indians are
heathen descendants of ancient Israel. The conclusion also is the
thesis of his doctoral dissertation at the University of Washington.

"We're told to tell the truth, but not if the truth contradicts church
doctrine. I would prefer to tell the truth," Murphy said.

[story continued here (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/134586805_mormon30m.html)]

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

The BoM:it's true it was written, but it's false in what it implies. it also is heavily plagarized..


btw...that was a great post, Randolpho; very well organized and thoughtfully executed. (hee hee...i shoulda been an English teacher...)

[UberDragon]

What is it about anyway?? It's just kind of like, "Oh, we forgot to put chapter in the Bible."

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by EvilPoet
By Patty Henetz
The Associated Press

SALT LAKE CITY — An Edmonds Community College instructor with
Mormon family roots says he will probably be excommunicated next
week for articles he has written questioning the validity of the Book
of Mormon.

Thomas W. Murphy, 35, published an article in the May Signature
Books anthology "American Apocrypha," which uses genetic data
to discredit the Book of Mormon claim that American Indians are
heathen descendants of ancient Israel. The conclusion also is the
thesis of his doctoral dissertation at the University of Washington.

"We're told to tell the truth, but not if the truth contradicts church
doctrine. I would prefer to tell the truth," Murphy said.

[story continued here (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/134586805_mormon30m.html)]

As far as these so-called lost tribes (the Lamanites and Nephites, the Jaredites) being the ancestors of the Native Peoples,
I feel that the particular claim that the Mormon BoM makes, needs to be challenged for three valid reasons:
1) They were stealing the history from Native Peoples (of which I belong as a Mexican),
2) Those claims go against most established sciences (linguists, genetics, biology, archeology and anthropology) &
3) They have several organizations trying to prove those claims, such as FARMS at Brigham Young University, http://www.farms.byu.edu/ .

In the past I have had dealings with this issue and being intensely interested in Mesoamerican history, I usually speak up about it. While at Bakersfield College in the early 1980’s, I had taken all the archeology & anthropology classes there, including 3 semesters of field work at Rocky Hill near Porterville by the Sierras (at a Tübatulabal camp site, tribal area listed on map provided as ‘21h’ http://www.californiaprehistory.com/tribmap.html ).

While at one of those digs, I noticed that one of the students had a real cool t-shirt with a Mayan glyph & the words “it shall come to past” underneath. I asked him where he had gotten that & why did it say that? Well he responded that that was the translation of the glyph; I disputed that because I knew at that time they had not gone far beyond the numbering system and told him that. Anyway, I saw him about half an hour later with a different t-shirt. I continually run up against people that believe BoM claims and so feel the need to correct them.

So anyway, I hope that you understand why it may be more personal to me, than just a religion thing. Also, there seems to be more research going on by Mormons that is unbiased (in my opinion), but is being met with denial by the Mormon church, http://www.fresnobee.com/24hour/nation/story/667179p-4988084c.html

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by Randolfo

So anyway, I hope that you understand why it may
be more personal to me, than just a religion thing.
Yup! I totally understand. :)

[WildBlueYonder]

Abstracts from "Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics" [1]
by Thomas W. Murphy on link below:

http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp

Abstracts from 4 different studies:

1.
Am J Hum Genet 2002 Jan;70(1):192-206

The dual origin and Siberian affinities of Native American Y chromosomes.

Lell JT, Sukernik RI, Starikovskaya YB, Su B, Jin L, Schurr TG, Underhill PA, Wallace DC.

Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA 30322, USA.

The Y chromosomes of 549 individuals from Siberia and the Americas were analyzed for 12 biallelic markers, which defined 15 haplogroups. The addition of four microsatellite markers increased the number of haplotypes to 111. The major Native American founding lineage, haplogroup M3, accounted for 66% of male Y chromosomes and was defined by the biallelic markers M89, M9, M45, and M3. The founder haplotype also harbored the microsatellite alleles DYS19 (10 repeats), DYS388 (11 repeats), DYS390 (11 repeats), and DYS391 (10 repeats). In Siberia, the M3 haplogroup was confined to the Chukotka peninsula, adjacent to Alaska. The second major group of Native American Y chromosomes, haplogroup M45, accounted for about one-quarter of male lineages. M45 was subdivided by the biallelic marker M173 and by the four microsatellite loci alleles into two major subdivisions: M45a, which is found throughout the Americas, and M45b, which incorporates the M173 variant and is concentrated in North and Central America. In Siberia, M45a haplotypes, including the direct ancestor of haplogroup M3, are concentrated in Middle Siberia, whereas M45b haplotypes are found in the Lower Amur River and Sea of Okhotsk regions of eastern Siberia. Among the remaining 5% of Native American Y chromosomes is haplogroup RPS4Y-T, found in North America. In Siberia, this haplogroup, along with haplogroup M45b, is concentrated in the Lower Amur River/Sea of Okhotsk region. These data suggest that Native American male lineages were derived from two major Siberian migrations. The first migration originated in southern Middle Siberia with the founding haplotype M45a (10-11-11-10). In Beringia, this gave rise to the predominant Native American lineage, M3 (10-11-11-10), which crossed into the New World. A later migration came from the Lower Amur/Sea of Okhkotsk region, bringing haplogroup RPS4Y-T and subhaplogroup M45b, with its associated M173 variant. This migration event contributed to the modern genetic pool of the Na-Dene and Amerinds of North and Central America.

==
2.
Am J Hum Genet 2002 Jul;71(1):187-192

Mitochondrial genome diversity of Native Americans supports a single early entry of founder populations into America.

Silva WA Jr, Bonatto SL, Holanda AJ, Ribeiro-Dos-Santos AK, Paixao BM, Goldman GH, Abe-Sandes K, Rodriguez-Delfin L, Barbosa M, Paco-Larson ML, Petzl-Erler ML, Valente V, Santos SE, Zago MA.

Center for Cell Therapy and Regional Blood Center, University of Sao Paulo, Ribeirao Preto, Brazil.

There is general agreement that the Native American founder populations migrated from Asia into America through Beringia sometime during the Pleistocene, but the hypotheses concerning the ages and the number of these migrations and the size of the ancestral populations are surrounded by controversy. DNA sequence variations of several regions of the genome of Native Americans, especially in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region, have been studied as a tool to help answer these questions. However, the small number of nucleotides studied and the nonclocklike rate of mtDNA control-region evolution impose several limitations to these results. Here we provide the sequence analysis of a continuous region of 8.8 kb of the mtDNA outside the D-loop for 40 individuals, 30 of whom are Native Americans whose mtDNA belongs to the four founder haplogroups. Haplogroups A, B, and C form monophyletic clades, but the five haplogroup D sequences have unstable positions and usually do not group together. The high degree of similarity in the nucleotide diversity and time of differentiation (i.e., approximately 21,000 years before present) of these four haplogroups support a common origin for these sequences and suggest that the populations who harbor them may also have a common history. Additional evidence supports the idea that this age of differentiation coincides with the process of colonization of the New World and supports the hypothesis of a single and early entry of the ancestral Asian population into the Americas.

===
3.
Am J Phys Anthropol 1978 Nov;49(4):457-464

Ethnic communities in Israel: the genetic blood markers of the Babylonian Jews.

Bonne-Tamir B, Ashbel S, Bar-Shani S.

One hundred eighty-eight Jewish individuals who either they or whose both parents were born in Iraq were typed for 7 blood groups (ABO, MNS, Rh, Kell, Duffy, P and Kidd), 12 red cell enzyme systems and 2 serum proteins. Iraqi Jews are characterized by a high frequency of A (in ABO), N (in MNS), low cde (Rh) and low Hp-1. Several rare electrophoretic variants were encountered: PGM1 6-1, PHI 3-1 and PHI 2-1, and an unidentified AK phenotype. No evidence of Negroid admixture was found in their gene pool. Comparisons with results previously obtained in Iraqi Jews show general similarities in frequencies while comparisons with neighboring non-Jewish populations suggest divergence in most systems investigated. The difficulties of assessing relationships on the basis of a few selected differences and the need for careful interpretations of similarities are emphasized.

===

4.
Am J Phys Anthropol 1977 Jul;47(1):89-91

ABO-typing of ancient skeletons from Israel.

Micle S, Kobilyansky E, Nathan M, Arensburg B, Nathan H.

Sixty-eight ancient skeletons, unearthed at Jerusalem and En Gedi and, according to the archeological data belonging to Jewish residents of these places from about 1,600 to 2,000 years ago, were ABO-typed by means of the hemagglutination-inhibition test. The blood groups of 13 skeletons were undiagnosable and the remaining 55 showed the following distribution: 30.91% A-group, 14.54% B-group, 50.91% AB-group and 3.64% O-group. According to these findings, the population to which these skeletons belonged must have had a high frequency of genes IA and IB, and a low occurrence of O blood group and its related IO gene.

[WildBlueYonder]

Can you find any 'reformed egyptian' here?
http://www.bbc.peachnet.edu/academic_svcs/art_science/dubay/mexico/mayan_math.html
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~reffland/anthropology/learning/newworld/mayan_lost_tribes/maya_writing/writing.html

[EvilPoet]

What is reformed egyptian?

[WildBlueYonder]

Can you find any 'reformed egyptian' here?
http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/Hieratic/lesson1.html
http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/DEPT/PUB/SRC/SAOC/45/SAOC45_Lesson01.pdf
http://www.greatscott.com/hiero/
http://www.isomedia.com/homes/mjohns/calc.htm

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by EvilPoet
What is reformed egyptian? That is the supposed language that the "Book of Mormon" was translated from, by Joseph Smith. Also, the "Book of Abraham". Just contrasting the two systems, to see if anyone could find that supposed language?

[EvilPoet]

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.
If I find anything I will let you know. I see they
have postponed the excommunication hearing
indefinitely - interesting turn of events. But that
is another thread altogether and very much off
topic imo. :)

Again - Thanks.

[WildBlueYonder]

Mesoamerican cultures used base 20 numeral system & several calendars with a 52-year century

Various Numeral Systems
http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/wonderquest/2002-06-28-base-60.htm
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Greek_numbers.html
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Babylonian_numerals.html
http://www.math.wichita.edu/history/topics/num-sys.html#qui
http://www.transparent.com/languagepages/hebrew/overview.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm
http://www.yahuah.org/izintro.html
http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html
http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinamh1.htm
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerals

Various Calendar Systems
http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinese.htm
http://www.transimage.com/Cal/CalChi.html
http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/Calendar.html
http://www.bible-history.com/jewishyear/jewishyear_nelson_s_illustrated_bible_dictionary.h tml
http://www.inkemetic.org/calnfest.htm
http://www.egyptologyonline.com/astronomy.htm
http://www.lifepositive.com/mind/culture/maya/mayan.asp
http://edj.net/mc2012/fap13.html
http://www.rocknroll.force9.co.uk/faceHair/maya.htm
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/dpalfrey/dpaztec.html

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by UberDragon
What is it about anyway?? It's just kind of like, "Oh, we forgot to put chapter in the Bible."
Actually, it is a disguised science fiction/ historical fantasy book, masquerading as a 'lost' testament of Jesus for the Americas

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

i never did enjoy science fiction much.. eh.....

[WildBlueYonder]

The following is from a recent column that is syndicated throughout the US. I am reprinting it here just to show that none of the sacred foods mentioned are "OLD WORLD", which should have been the case if early Israelites had indeed brought them to the Western Hemisphere as mentioned in the 'Book of Mormon', since most "OLD WORLD'' foods were readily adopted once brought here. See link for history of the 'food exchange' that happened after 1492: http://www.mnh.si.edu/garden/history/


FROM UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE

FOR RELEASE: WEEK OF NOVEMBER 29, 2002

COLUMN OF THE AMERICAS by Patrisia Gonzales and Roberto Rodriguez

SEVEN GUARDIANS OF INDIGENOUS NUTRITION

Editor's note: This is a first-person column by Patrisia Gonzales

When the old ones made the people long ago, they wondered, "What
will they
eat?" They sent Quetzalcoatl to look for food. One day, he saw a
red ant
carrying something on its back. It was a kernel of corn. He asked Ant
where
he got that food. Ant responded, "Over there in sustenance
mountain." He
turned himself into a black ant and followed the red ant into food
mountain.
That's how Ant helped Quetzalcoatl find corn.

From there, Quetzacoatl brought corn, and also beans and squash.
Native
cultures call them the three sisters. They are often planted
together. Among
Mexican indigenous nutrition, there are also the "siete
guerreros," or seven
warriors. These nutritional guardians are maguey, cactus, chile,
beans,
squash, corn and amaranth.

Amid the holiday season, indigenous peoples today celebrate the
harvest
feasts and life cycles of the Earth and sun. Many celebrations are
based on
the agricultural cycle, giving thanks for what the Earth has given
us. In
indigenous nutrition, we connect to our grandmother Earth by what we
eat. We
are what we eat. (So stay away from genetically modified corn!)

Maiz. The corn tortilla is golden like the sun. We eat a little bit
of the
sun every day with tortillas de maiz. Tortillas are round like the
sun and a
woman's skirts. As the woman (or man) pats the tortilla back and
forth, the
energy of her hands is given to the food. Don Aurelio, a Nahuatl
curandero
(healer), says this is one way that female energy is passed
throughout the
family and community. (My grandmother, who of course made the
hottest,
fattest tamales, ground her own corn until the arrival of the
blender. Being
a modern woman who loved gadgets, she quickly surrendered her metate
grinding
stone, which is now mine.)

One ceremony still practiced today commemorates the sacred act of
eating:
when the tortilla is placed on the sacred fire. I have learned much
about
indigenous nutrition from teachers such as Isabel Quevedo, who
teaches about
the siete guerreros at Mexico's Nahuatl University. We learn in the
place wh
ere many teachings are passed -- in the kitchen, while eating. Unlike
Western
tradition, our kitchens are sacred geography.

El tamal is a petate, Quevedo says. In indigenous thought, the petate
(or
straw mat) is where we're born and where we die.

In our ways, nothing is thrown out. "Tira nada," says my
chef friend Antonio.
Corn silk tea cleanses kidneys, and the husks have several uses as
tiny mats
and containers. Corn tortillas are a great source of calcium.
Squash. In ancestral books, the squash seeds symbolize women's
fertility.
Like a squash, we're born with all our seeds. Fall squash, in
particular, is
a great source of vitamin A for the skin and immunity. Squash blossom
dishes
are a delicacy you can only enjoy in Mexico or if you have your own
garden.

El frijol. Eat beans five times a week, and you may lower your risk
of cancer.

El nopal -- God's food. Its slimy baba and leaf hold the medicine to
naturally balance insulin, fight off viruses and strengthen the
heart. When
doctors gave Grandma only months to live because her heart was tired,
we
cooked her fresh nopales (cactus) every day and fed her chilito and
Jell-O.
Chiles have lots of vitamin C, and are great for colds, arthritis,
depression
and pain (when combined with other herbs). And their ability to
strengthen
circulation is good for the heart. My grandma lived another three
years. Food
is medicine.

Grandmother Maguey is said to be the guardian of all the other
vegetation.
Her medicine helps people with extreme immune disorders.

Finally, amaranth -- the most complete of all grains -- is returning
to our
kitchens. This grain was outlawed in Mexico by Europeans. Isabel
Quevedo says
Europeans thought its deep red flower looked like blood. It was so
heavily
relied upon in indigenous cultures and used in ceremonies that
Europeans
forbade its growth. It was grown in secret. Quevedo says no one would
starve
or need meat if they ate this grain. It's great for atole and avena
porridges. I eat it for breakfast and add it to Mexican chocolate. It
strengt
hens the heart.

Of course, the best ingredient we put in food is "to cook with
love."

The last time we were at Nahuatl U., we saw where the old stories
came from
on our way to breakfast. "There's a lot of Quetzalcoatl
here," said Quevedo,
as we watched in wonder of this blessing. We saw red ants carrying
fat
kernels of corn.

COPYRIGHT 2002 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE

[John Mace]

Religeous leaders have, for millenia, been ignoring or re-interpretting new scientific discoveries so as not to jeopardize their divinely inspired doctrine. My guess is that the Mormons will easily find a way to live with any scientific evidence showing American Indians are not descendents of the lost tribes of Israel.

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by John Mace
My guess is that the Mormons will easily find a way to live with any scientific evidence showing American Indians are not descendents of the lost tribes of Israel. You may be right, I feel that they will have only 3 options in the future, after failed attempts at trying to prove the Book of Mormon 'historical':
1) to ignore all evidence to the contrary that the BoM is false
2) to have a "revelation" by one of their new "Prophets", that god no longer needs the BoM or
3) the LDS will need to change into a mainline Christian church?
Unknown what the outcome will be?

[Clockwood]

The sad thing about faith is that it demands you believe in something even when there is a whole world of evidence against it. Some could point at the sky and say it was a fish provided some religious text said so.

[kmguru]

Mormons, that claim that the Native American Indians are descendant from the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel", say that all the ancient monuments and cities are the result of an ancient war by these 'Lost Tribes', which left them without any knowledge of their past, and because of their evil, turned them into dark-skinned people!!??

The ancient war could be Mahabharat or before that Ramayan. If the archeological digs at Dwaraka produce good results, it could establish a link to the jewish tribes - since vedas and kabalah has a common theme. In the mean time, the trade between India and China goes back thousands of years with a common border. So, it is possible that the Native Americans could be the descendants of a group of Eurasians that moved on due to war.

Mahabharat talks about nuclear weapons being used. In fact, people have to pass on knowledge via human memory. How can a sophisticated language such as Sanskrit (great for computer programming) be there without any paper to write on? The descriptions are unmistakable. It is not farfecthing that after such a global exchange - people will revert to the stone age.

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by kmguru
The ancient war could be Mahabharat or before that Ramayan. If the archeological digs at Dwaraka produce good results,
Not much info, give better links than I found below, please:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/scholars_of_false_history_of_india_are_a_dying_bre ed.htm
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Dwaraka.htm
http://www.vihari.com/Divine/dwaraka.asp



it could establish a link to the jewish tribes - since vedas and kabalah has a common theme. I think most of Kabballah came after Christianity, but I think it is syncretistic, not "kosher" to most jews:
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/kabb.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~lyam/KABBALAH.htm
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/faq.htm#HowoldisKabbalah



In the mean time, the trade between India and China goes back thousands of years with a common border. True about India & China. So if Israel & India traded, there should be a wealth of trade goods, arts & ideas besides just mysticism?


So, it is possible that the Native Americans could be the descendants of a group of Eurasians that moved on due to war. The point of why I started this thread, was that I disagree that there is any proof of large-scale contacts with or between Eurasia & the Western Hemisphere. If Indian refugees had come here ( or Jewish refugees for that matter), there would be more proof also, such as languages (need to be Dravidian or Aryan), genetics (DNA), religion (did Native Americans forget Hindu gods so easily?), art (elephants are hard to forget), architecture ( the arch is very useful), technology (the wheel & metallurgy), & warfare (bows & arrows did not reach this hemisphere until the last millennium)

Mahabharat talks about nuclear weapons being used.
That should be easy to check, several isotopes have half-lives that last millions of years, get your giger counters & mass spectrometers ready for the proof.

In fact, people have to pass on knowledge via human memory. How can a sophisticated language such as Sanskrit (great for computer programming) be there without any paper to write on? Many people have great oral traditions (that are still in use today) & many are very useful for various things. Being bilingual, (English & Spanish), I find both languages have various strengths & weaknesses. And knowing several speakers of Greek, Hmong, Arabic & Hebrew, I can say that each has ways of expressing ideas uniquely theirs & also very "universal" ways. Being in the stone age, did not make Native Peoples 'dumb', 'savage' or 'uncivilized', they just had another time schedule for their progress, culture, & civilizations. Read up on their ideas, arts & philosophies. So Sanskrit is good for comp programming, that proves what?

The descriptions are unmistakable. It is not farfecthing that after such a global exchange - people will revert to the stone age. Different nuclear weapons, leave different radioactive fallout, need to see the data or do the research to find the proof. BTW, did all these radioactive-refugees mutate genetically & morph into 'RED Indians'? I don't think so, check the DNA research. Also, ancient texts assume that there are awesome powers available to gods &/or creators of the universe, so if these texts allude to nuclear destruction by inference, that is not good enough, they either need references to "sunbursts", "mushroom clouds", "wasting diseases" & "shadows" of the victims, a la Nagasaki & Hiroshima. The destruction & power is extreme, that's why Oppenheimer referred to the first a-bomb burst as an aspect of 'Shiva the Destroyer', “we have become death”. Please, some quotes & references to check your data? http://www.nyu.edu/globalbeat/southasia/ahmed080398.html

[kmguru]

It is a good idea to visit the Eastern Philosophy section to connect the dots. Besides, they are speculations until they become mainstream ideas - may be 20 years down the road.

Also check out 'past civilization' in Pseudoscience section.

[kmguru]

I think most of Kabballah came after Christianity, but I think it is syncretistic, not "kosher" to most jews:

Not so fast....I can cite links too...

The traditional origin of the Kabala closely resembles the opening sentences of the fourth discourse of The Bhagavad-Gita. According to the account, the Kabala is divine Wisdom which was first taught by God to a company of angels. Adam caught glimpses of these truths and passed his vision on to Noah. Noah communicated it unto Abraham, who in turn taught it to the Egyptians. Moses gained his knowledge in Egypt and passed it on to his seventy elders. From them the Kabala was transmitted orally until the year A.D. 80, when some of the teachings were committed to writing. At this point tradition stops and actual history begins. And from that history we can complete Krishna's sentence and say: "In the course of time the mighty art was lost."

more at: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/kabalists.html

[EvilPoet]

I thought this might be of interest.

In an age of spiritual awakening and deep religious turmoil there arose in Judaism a number of sects with heterodox ideas resulting from a mixture of inner compulsion and outside influence. Whether Gnostic sects existed on the periphery of Judaism before the advent of Christianity is a matter of controversy (see below); but there is no doubt that minim ("heretics") did exist in the tannaitic period and especially in the third and fourth centuries. In this period a Jewish Gnostic sect with definite antinomian tendencies was active in Sepphoris. There were also of course intermediate groups from which members of these sects gained an extended knowledge of theological material on ma'aseh bereshit and ma'aseh merkabah, and among these should be included the Ophites (snake worshippers) who were basically Jewish rather than Christian. From this source a considerable number of esoteric traditions were transmitted to Gnostics outside Judaism, whose books, many of which have been discovered in our own time, are full of such material -- found not only in Greek and Coptic texts of the second and third centuries but also in the early strata of Mandaic literature, which is written in colloquial Aramaic. Notwithstanding all the deep differences in theological approach, the growth of Merkabah mysticism constitutes an inner Jewish concomitant to Gnosis, and it may be termed "Jewish and rabbinic Gnosticism."

Excerpt taken from Kabbalah by Gershom Scholem

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by kmguru
Not so fast....I can cite links too...

: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/kabalists.html
Not sure these are credible sources, the Theosophists want to prove their point of view (my nephew thinks some of this sounds like it came from "Galaxy Quest" about the Milosian Migration? Excerpts from these link http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/kabalists.html
THE Theosophists of the Middle Ages drew their occult knowledge...
The traditional origin of the Kabala closely resembles…
The actual origin of the Kabala is somewhat different. At the beginning of our Fifth Race(1), about one million years ago, the knowledge which had been accumulated by thousands of generations of initiated Adepts was recorded in written form. The language used was Senzar, the secret sacerdotal tongue which preceded Sanscrit and was known to the Initiates from time immemorial…
And this?
Originally posted by kmguru
It is a good idea to visit the Eastern Philosophy section to connect the dots. Besides, they are speculations until they become mainstream ideas - may be 20 years down the road.

Also check out 'past civilization' in Pseudoscience section.

While many people on Sciforums are very credible, earnest & knowledgeable, this is not a researchable site or credible for that matter, it's called "Pseudoscience" for a reason. Need published research, verifiable data or original sources, like...
Originally posted by EvilPoet

Excerpt taken from Kabbalah by Gershom Scholem.

[kmguru]

Originally posted by Randolfo
Not sure these are credible sources, ...

While many people on Sciforums are very credible, earnest & knowledgeable, this is not a researchable site or credible for that matter, it's called "Pseudoscience" for a reason. Need published research, verifiable data or original sources, like...

I finally got it...especially the part "Sciforums is not a credible site..."

So...are you saying...anything you opine is just garbage....I can live with that. :D

BTW: As I said...most stuff we talk in Sciforums ... published research may be in the works and may take 10 to 15 years to be published and authenticated. Either you can join at the ground floor or wait like everybody else. I understand the reluctance on the leap...

With 6 million+ strong Mormons - the book must be as much true as virgin birth. After all we are talking about religion here. It is called "Religion" for a reason. There are plenty of original sources including Joseph Smith himself.

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by kmguru
I finally got it...especially the part "Sciforums is not a credible site..."
Don’t take it personal, but I'm sure you don't believe everything you read on these chatrooms, do you? That part of about, "At the beginning of our Fifth Race(1), about one million years ago", it's too much, it sounds like the ancient Aztec "Fifth Sun" belief & as a Mexican, I know old mythologies when I see them, do you?


So...are you saying...anything you opine is just garbage....I can live with that. :D More than 99.99% of people use anonymous pseudonyms on the net, there is no way to check their sources, if they plagiarized, or if it's just made up stuff. So, yes people need to verify some of their info before it is taken as more than an opinion, even what I say.



BTW: As I said...most stuff we talk in Sciforums ... published research may be in the works and may take 10 to 15 years to be published and authenticated. Either you can join at the ground floor or wait like everybody else. I understand the reluctance on the leap... Somehow this will always make me think, that, no, I didn't miss a thing; "At the beginning of our Fifth Race(1), about one million years ago"

With 6 million+ strong Mormons - the book must be as much true as virgin birth. After all we are talking about religion here. It is called "Religion" for a reason. You're funny, too funny :D :D :D

There are plenty of original sources including Joseph Smith himself. Now, just because it's written down, doesn't mean that it's true, but it does mean that we can check them out, now that's why it needs sources. And half of what Joe wrote can be refuted, not that mormons will agree, but the archeology, genetics & history backs that up!

[kmguru]

And half of what Joe wrote can be refuted, not that mormons will agree, but the archeology, genetics & history backs that up!

In case someone missed the big one....the book of Mormon is the third book in the Bible series. NO human can back up regarding GOD through archeology, genetics & history.

It is a book about religion and not science...get it...???

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by kmguru
In case someone missed the big one....the book of Mormon is the third book in the Bible series. NO human can back up regarding GOD through archeology, genetics & history.

It is a book about religion and not science...get it...???


That's interesting that you should say that, if you haven't read the Book of Mormon already, you should, but while you're doing that, just write down any interesting ideas, characters or quick chapter summaries. You will see that this is something that claims to be 'true' history, that masquerades as a 'religious' book, but which is a 'science fiction' novel. Read the claims. Here is some info & links that I posted previously on another thread...

Originally posted by Randolfo
False prophet, false religion, false hopes!!!
Let me repeat some questions:
“First, explain to everybody what the "Book of Mormon" is about?
Who are the major players?
What is the "story" about?
What happens to all those tribes?
What are the other claims? “
And so again I state:
"My point is, that the BoM is a piece of fiction, it may be the "FIRST" true science fiction or science fantasy novel ever written, but it's still fiction!!! None of its claims can stand up to modern archeology, just post any of its claims in a science chat board or ask non-mormon archeology or anthropology teachers if there is any proof of all these peoples mentioned in the BoM? It should be easy, those events are only a couple of thousand years in the past!”

Interesting Books to read:
Ethan Smith's book “View of the Hebrews” http://www.watchman.org/lds/bkmrmrev.htm

Linda King Newell & Valeen Tippets Avery
“Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith”, 2nd ed.
(University of Illinois Press, 1994), 394 pages, paperback, ISBN 0-252-06291-4
The Thorn in Joseph's Side
In Nauvoo, 38-year-old Joseph repeatedly used the claim of divine revelation to coerce teenage girls to become his wives.
http://www.irr.org/mit/enigma.html

“No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith: The Mormon Prophet”
by Fawn McKay Brodie, Peter Dimock (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679730540/qid=1040754708/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8690605-5854566?v=glance&s=books

Interesting info:
“The Old Testament tells us that Zedekiah witnessed the slaying of his sons by Nebuchadnezzar's men at Riblah, before he was carried captive to Babylon (2 Kings 25:7). However, the Book of Mormon claims that Mulek, one of Zedekiah's sons, managed to escape.”
http://www.mormonstudies.com/parallel.htm

“In July 1835 Joseph Smith acquired some Egyptian scrolls, which he immediately started to translate, claiming that the rolls contained the writings of Abraham and Joseph of Egypt. He also began work on an Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and discovered that the hieroglyphs on the papyri were similar to both Hebrew and to the characters on the plates which contained the Book of Mormon. Since their discovery, the papyri have been examined by Egyptologists. Because Joseph copied characters from the papyri and wrote out his translation next to them, it has been possible to determine exactly which one of the papyri supposedly contained the writings of Abraham. This is often referred to as the small Sensen fragment. This papyrus has been translated and is nothing more than a very common funerary text, dating between 100 B.C. and A.D. 100, taken from the Book of Breathings, which is itself a shorter version of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. These texts were placed in coffins or burial chambers to assist the soul of the deceased in the afterlife.”
http://www.mormonstudies.com/seer2.htm

“The underlying theme of the Book of Mormon is the falling away of the Nephites, the clean and blessed people of the American continent. This group of people were supposedly annihilated by the Lamanites. Their remnant being the indigenous people of the American continent. Joseph Smith believed that many of the American Indians were decsendants of these Lamanites.”
http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/masonry.htm

Organizations working among the LDS:
http://www.concernedchristians.org
http://www.lds-mormon.com

some Mormonism links:
http://www.farms.byu.edu
http://www.jefflindsay.com/MyPages.shtml#religion

Check these links for stuff on mormon origins & researchers.
http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/why.htm
http://www.lds-mormon.com/sor.shtml
http://www.lds-mormon.com/quest.shtml

Check this out for temple rituals & designs:
http://www.concernedchristians.org/newsletter/august_2002.html

Interesting links:
http://www.nccg.org/NCMM/LDS2-4.html
http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmnh/origin.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/
http://www.chattanooga.net/cita/mtdna.html
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/anthro/outreach/indian_l.htm
http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmnh/origin.htm
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/...scripts_eom.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teache...02_vikings.html
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/anthro/outreach/indian_l.htm

Native American sites:
http://www.geocities.com/bigorrin/iaq.htm#3
http://www.gbso.net/Skyhawk/language.htm

Interesting DNA research:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/indians_lamanites.shtml[/
http://www.ich.ucl.ac.uk/cmgs/ymito.htm

African Eve link: http://www.virginia.edu/~woodson/courses/aas102/articles/tierney.html

Y Chromosome study link: http://www.familytreedna.com/nature97385.html

Language links:
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/ldumois/maya/ldmayanumbers.html
http://www.bbc.peachnet.edu/academic_svcs/art_science/dubay/mexico/mayan_math.html
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~reffland/anthropology/learning/newworld/mayan_lost_tribes/maya_writing/writing.html
http://www.greatscott.com/hiero/
http://members.aol.com/egyptnew/hiero.html
http://www.isomedia.com/homes/mjohns/calc.htm


Numeral links:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/wonderquest/2002-06-28-base-60.htm
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Greek_numbers.html
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Babylonian_numerals.html
http://www.math.wichita.edu/history/topics/num-sys.html#qui
http://www.transparent.com/languagepages/hebrew/overview.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm
http://www.yahuah.org/izintro.html
http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html
http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinamh1.htm
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerals

Calendar links:
http://saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/chinese.htm
http://www.transimage.com/Cal/CalChi.html
http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/Calendar.html
http://www.bible-history.com/jewishyear/jewishyear_nelson_s_illustrated_bible_dictionary.h tml
http://www.inkemetic.org/calnfest.htm
http://www.egyptologyonline.com/astronomy.htm
http://www.lifepositive.com/mind/culture/maya/mayan.asp
http://edj.net/mc2012/fap13.html
http://www.rocknroll.force9.co.uk/faceHair/maya.htm
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/dpalfrey/dpaztec.html


See if you can find any connection between ancient Mayas and ancient Israelites?
Try sending some of the research done by mormons to archeology, history & linguistics departments at universities, see what they say? I realize this is a lot of data, but all knowledge needs research & interest to back it up, or understand it, 'yes' or 'no'? And there is no way the BoM is the 3rd part of the Bible, maybe the 4th pre-prequel part of the 'Star Wars" saga, or maybe "Battlefield Earth"?

[WildBlueYonder]

If the BoM is true, then all world history books will need to be changed, this is 'earth shattering' revelations, that 'reformed egyptian' was spoken here & that 'jewish exiles' walked among these shores 2 thousand years before Cristobal Colon convinced the Queen of Castile, to fund an expedition to the 'Indies'.

Stop the presses!!!

Can anyone find any major university that has used the BoM as a research tool (BYU excepted of course!)??? It's time that someone used the BoM to map out the Western Hemisphere for Lamanite & Nephite sites, like Heinrich Schliemann did for ancient Troy! Has anyone? They should be major tourist sites afterwards!


http://webcampus3.stthomas.edu/paschons/language_http/essays/schliemann.html

[WildBlueYonder]

This is written with many footnotes, so it is very long, but very interesting:


http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp

[WildBlueYonder]

Found my copy of The BoM after moving, intro states that the Lamanites "are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

If that is true, then all Native American languages should be related to the "Reformed Egyptian" that these Jewish people supposedly spoke. Anyone with a basic knowledge of similar languages would be able to prove that easily.

So, I am wondering if any one knows Arabic, Hebrew, Coptic, Aramaic or Assyrian & knows what the following names found in the BoM may possibly mean:

Abinadi
Ablom
Aiath
Alma
Alpha
Angola
Cohor
Cumenihah
Cumorah
Enos
Ether
Helaman
Irreantum
Isabel
Jacobugath
Jarom
Laman
Lehi
Mormon
Moroni
Mosiah
Mulek
Nephi
Sam

Just curious

[kmguru]

Cumorah ?

Sounds like a name from Earth: Final Conflict...anyway. Here is something interesting:

NEW YORK (CNN) -- In his new book, "1421: The Year China Discovered America" (William Morrow), Gavin Menzies claims that a massive Chinese fleet of huge junks and support ships made a two-year circumnavigation of the globe, with extensive exploration of the Americas, nearly a century before Magellan and Columbus.

Needless to say, his assertion has raised an international flurry of debate.

The book has already garnered mixed reviews from the British media, as well as skeptical articles from The New York Times Magazine and Salon.com.

Menzies is unfazed by the reviews. Indeed, even he was surprised at the results of his research, he said in an interview in the New York offices of his American publisher, Morrow.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/story.1421.map.jpgGerman cartographer Martin Waldseemüller produced this map in 1507. It portrays the vast majority of the world today, excluding the Australian mainland.

[TruthSeeker]

kmguru,

In case someone missed the big one....the book of Mormon is the third book in the Bible series. NO human can back up regarding GOD through archeology, genetics & history.
What the book of Mormon has to do with the Bible??:bugeye:
Two totally different books...:bugeye:

[kmguru]

May be Mormons know something that you may not. They figured, if new testament got attached to the old testament, why not the BOM?

BTW: I have posted here before (in archive somewhere) as to how you can tell BOM is true. Here it is again.

Several years ago, two beautiful ladies showed up at my front door to convert me to LDS (Mormons). They had a simple proposal. Before going to bed, I pray to God and ask Him if the BOM is true. The following 3 possibilities can happen.

1. God would say: It is false, KMGuru - you should know that by now. If that happens, the beauitiful girls declared, it is really the Satan that told me the untruth and for me to try harder for the rest of my life until the answer is Yes.

2. God said - BOM is true, then I am the new member...

3. God did not show up in my dream. That means I am a bad boy looking too much to their clevages and keep trying until No.1 happens.

Since I was married at the time, I had to keep my meeting with them short and gave them a book that was given to me by a Hare Krishna person at the airport and told them to do the same.

Never saw them again.

[TruthSeeker]

WHAT THE HECK IS BOM!?!?!?:eek:
Note: not angry, just surprised...

[TruthSeeker]

Oh... "Book Of Mormon"...
DUUUUUHHH...:bugeye:
I'm really tired now...:rolleyes:

[TruthSeeker]

kmguru,

I think your argument means nothing. Besides, it is VERY explicit that the BOM is NOT in the Bible... Mormon was a moron...:D He was totally lost when he wrote such thing...:bugeye:

[kmguru]

A Mormon only becomes a Moron, if you take out his Mojo the "m"....just some silly thought....

[TruthSeeker]

...:confused:
Do you realize the importance and the danger there is in believing in something that is not True...?

[kmguru]

Billions people do that everyday. Not every frelling religion could be right and separate...6 billion different truth???

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Grey Seal
when was the book of mormon written? is it based on the bible or from scratch? is mormonism the only religion to use it? first published around 1830, but mormons claim it is the translation of gold plates found by Joseph Smith in upstate NY of an earlier Jewish exile community. It seems to be a mix of ideas around that time, with parts of the Bible.

[TruthSeeker]

But doesn't come FROM the Bible, it is NOT FROM the Bible.

[Abnak]

Randalfo , I was reading quotes from William Penn that were written approx. 1685 . He states that he was of the opinion that the American indians resembled the jewish population in London ( I'll try to locate the quote ) . Do you know if Penn was the originater of this myth ...or if this was just an opinion that was prevailing at the time ?

[Abnak]

William Penn's Quote ( spring 1683 ) : " For their persons , they are generally tall , straight , well built and of singular proportion...of complextion black , but by design as the gypsies in England . Their eye is little and black , not unlike a straight-look'd jew . "

The author of the book this was taken from ( William Penn , Apostle of dissent ) inserts before Penns quote : " Penn did in fact believe the indians to be ... of the Jewish race - I mean of the stock of the ten tribes . I find them of like countenance and their children of such lovely resemblance , that a man would think himself in Dukesberry or Berry street in London when he seeth them . "

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Abnak
Randalfo , I was reading quotes from William Penn that were written approx. 1685 . He states that he was of the opinion that the American indians resembled the jewish population in London ( I'll try to locate the quote ) . Do you know if Penn was the originater of this myth ...or if this was just an opinion that was prevailing at the time ? Apparently many had this idea; a book that may have inspired J. Smith was "View of the Hebrews" by Ethan Smith, who had a similar storyline. There was a theory that many Europeans could not believe that savage Indians could build or leave so much 'civilized' remains; such as Mayan, Aztec & Toltec ruins, so they said that Egyptians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Africans, Asians, or Atlanteans built all these wonders. Anybody, but Indians in these theories.
Plus, there were reports of 'white Indians', but they were always beyond the next ridge. As if ghosts or myths, that were always within grasp, but still out of reach


Here's a link about the "View of the Hebrews" theory
http://www.lds-mormon.com/voh.shtml

[WildBlueYonder]

Well, the BoM does say that the whole face of the land was changed when Christ came to the ancient Americans. It also says that entire cities were buried, drowned, or totally destroyed. So we really don't know where the Nephites and Lamanites settled for sure. If God changes the geography and "hides" cities from his face, who will find them? I have every confidence that the Book of Mormon is true. I don't have to rely on geography or archeology. I noted that you yourself, in one of your posts, said that faith led you to Christianity, not science. So why can't faith do the same for Mormons? Something to think about, anyway.



Well, I don't claim to know why God changed the face of the land, but you have to admit that IF he did, that would make finding the BoM geography very hard to pin down. The BoM supports such a view, so it is consistent that IF God, for whatever reason, changed the landscape, BoM locales may be underwater or buried deep beneath the earth, or simply wiped off the face of the earth by the wrath of God. And if this destruction of Nephite/Lamanite civilization happened as the BoM says it did, then a culture that came later on may have replaced BoM peoples as the "native Americans." They wouldn't have BoM technologies like metallurgy and ship-building, necessarily, because that technology would have died with the destruction of the Nephites. It's at least one plausible solution to the problem of BoM archeology.
These are from an anonymous mormon source, what do you think of these quotes? Any comments?

[seth]

I would like to start out by saying that this is a great thing that you are trying to get people from the church or prove us wrong well let me tell you some ting no matter what any one says this is a true book tell me something i would like to know if we are so called wrong then tell me why we have somany people joing this religon well it has to be true if not then we are damned becaus christs church is not on this earth to day and we will alll go to hell i know that the book of mormon is correct and the people in the book of mormon are indeed the ancesters of the native americans and that this land is choice above all other lands i know that if the peopl had contionued to live the teaching of the profits of old columbus would not have found america it is hard to cut ont the mormon church. " And behold I would exort you if you should these thing if it be wisdom in god that you should read these things and rember how mercful the lord has been unto the children of men from the creaton of adam even down to the time you shall recev the s thing i would exort you to ask god the eternal father in the name of jesus christ if these thing arenot then by the power of the holy ghost ye may know the truth fulness of the things." well i thnk that you should ask god your self and with a sicner heart and real intent having faith in jesus christ well i did and i have found so much happness in its teachings . and you can to if you want to . seth

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

:confused: :bugeye: Seth, have you been channeling Joseph Smith again?

[WildBlueYonder]

Hi Pumpkin!

:D :cool: :D

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by seth
I would like to start out by saying that this is a great thing that you are trying to get people from the church or prove us wrong well let me tell you some ting no matter what any one says this is a true book tell me something i would like to know if we are so called wrong then tell me why we have somany people joing this religon well it has to be true if not then we are damned becaus christs church is not on this earth to day and we will alll go to hell i know that the book of mormon is correct and the people in the book of mormon are indeed the ancesters of the native americans

Birthday August 23rd, 1981
Biography iam "mormon
Location utah
Interests read the book of mormon
Occupation missionary
First, if the BoM was true, you should be able to refute this:

I feel that current studies of DNA, linguistics, etc. will disprove the Mormon theory that Native Americans are descendant from the 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel'. I do not believe this theory, because except for the Vikings, there's no real evidence that any other culture had an impact on any Native American tribe, until Columbus. No stories, no place names, no family names, no words or languages, no foods, no writing, no art, no animals, no technology, no resistance to diseases, no genetic trace.
Any tribe exposed to advanced cultures, usually takes up aspects of it. Look at what happened in New Guinea and Polynesia. Recently in southern Africa they were able to prove that the Lemba are Jewish descendents, using gene studies that followed the Y chromosome of the priestly Aaronic-line of males (cohen = priest). And the genes matched Jews from Israel and the Diaspora. The Lemba also had stories that they were Jewish, had Kosher-type laws and other customs. Yet they were as black as any other African, in other words they looked native! If the stories in the Book of Mormon are to be believed, this would also be true of Native Americans, if they were Jewish as the Mormons claim, you could trace their genetic makeup, customs and stories. It should be provable.

My point is, since it seems that most Indians are majority 'B' blood type and belong to the A, B, C, & D halogroups; it would then be simple to correlate the blood types and halogroups that the majority of Asiatic, Israeli & Diaspora Jews belongs to. If you can find out, you will prove the Mormon theory one way or another.
Any one coming over to the Western Hemisphere with iron, steel or shipbuilding technology would have made a huge impact on stone-age people. Which, except for precious metals and some copper and tin, there's no evidence that any tribe was other that stone age. Anybody with metal swords would have become kings or great warriors of myth, under any of the warrior cultures, (which the Mayans, Aztecs, & Incas were). These swords would have been treasured and handed down for generations, sort of like the Arthurian legend of Excalibur in England. There should be words in common, for those tribes that came in contact with Europeans or Asians. When white, black or yellow peoples first showed up here in the Western Hemisphere, they should have been called mythological names that could be traced to their homelands, (like 'Israelotl', 'Neftotl', or 'Moronotl', etc, not Quetzalcoatl = Feathered Serpent). They should have had elephants, horses, etc. in their art.
They should have common writing, which except for the Olmec & Mayan glyphs and Aztec picture drawing there is no evidence that that any Native American tribe used writing. There has to be some tangible evidence.

Mormons, that claim that the Native American Indians are descendant from the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel", say that all the ancient monuments and cities are the result of an ancient war by these 'Lost Tribes', which left them without any knowledge of their past, and because of their evil, turned them into dark-skinned people!!??
I do not agree with this belief, and as a Mexican (mixed Indian & Spanish blood), I find it culturally imperialistic to think that Native peoples needed outside help to develop these ancient sites. I also think, that any reference to "Lost Tribes" is in error, since I think that many descendents of the Assyrian Captivity stayed on in the Assyrian Empire, lived as Jews there (so they were never ‘lost’), up until the founding of the modern State of Israel, when they immigrated to Israel from present-day Syria, Iraq & Iran (the borders of the old Assyrian Empire).
If you are a missionary, you have a long way to go, to prove anything you said

[pumpkinsaren'torange]

*awaits patiently for Seth's reply*



p.s. hi Randolpho...:)

[Dinosaur]

There was a post about Joseph Smith working from some Egyptian papyrus manuscripts. ????

I thought he was given or found some gold tablets and a pair of spectacles which miraculously allowed him to read the tablets. After he read them to somebody who wrote it all down, the tablets and spectacles were taken away never to be seen again.

As far as I know the above is the basic story of the origin of the Book of Mormon.

An interesting aspect of the LDS church is that it believes in on-going revelation. The head of the church (their version of the Pope) can get communications from god telling him that dogma and/or behavioral rules have been changed. This allowed them to officially stop practicing polygamy when it was interfering with their becoming a state.

If need be, god can tell the leader that the story about the origin of the Book of Mormon and the whole concept of the ten tribes showing up in the New World was an allegory designed to help ignorant people find a truer religion than the one they had. The story can be changed to one about how god inspired Joe Smith to have hallucinations and make up this story so that a new religion could be founded.

Many modern Judeo-Christian sects have essentially done this with Old Testament stories.

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Dinosaur
There was a post about Joseph Smith working from some Egyptian papyrus manuscripts. ????


To answer here is an excerpt from, http://www.mormonstudies.com/seer2.htm:

"In July 1835 Joseph Smith acquired some Egyptian scrolls, which he immediately started to translate, claiming that the rolls contained the writings of Abraham and Joseph of Egypt. He also began work on an Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and discovered that the hieroglyphs on the papyri were similar to both Hebrew and to the characters on the plates which contained the Book of Mormon.
After Joseph's death in 1844, the papyri remained in the custody of Emma Smith. In 1856 she sold them to a man named A. Combs. For many years, it was thought that they had been given to a museum in Chicago and that they had been destroyed in the Great Fire of 1871. However, they were discovered in 1966 at the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art and were acquired by the Mormon church the following year.
Since their discovery, the papyri have been examined by Egyptologists. Because Joseph copied characters from the papyri and wrote out his translation next to them, it has been possible to determine exactly which one of the papyri supposedly contained the writings of Abraham. This is often referred to as the small Sensen fragment. This papyrus has been translated and is nothing more than a very common funerary text, dating between 100 B.C. and A.D. 100, taken from the Book of Breathings, which is itself a shorter version of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. These texts were placed in coffins or burial chambers to assist the soul of the deceased in the afterlife. "

Some more links:

BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 2
http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/examfac2.htm
http://nowscape.com/mormon/kolob-defined3.htm

[WildBlueYonder]

Billions people do that everyday. Not every frelling religion could be right and separate...6 billion different truth???


truth as in little "t", we all have subjective "truths", things we believe are true, but that doesn't make them "TRUTH", I could know as truth that the planet earth is a golfball, but that doesn't make it true, even though its my "truth"

[Athelwulf]

Why is this in Comparative Religion? I haven't read the thread (can't be fucked right now), but it seems like it belongs in the plain old Religion forum.

[Fraggle Rocker]

In the mean time, the trade between India and China goes back thousands of years with a common border. So, it is possible that the Native Americans could be the descendants of a group of Eurasians that moved on due to war.Be careful with vague words like "thousands." India and China have only been civilizations, capable of engaging in activities like trade and war, for six or seven thousand years. (The exact figure eludes my Googling but I know it can't be more than eight thousand.) Before that they were Stone Age tribes like all the world was, except for a few people in Mesopotamia who got a very slight head start of maybe one or two thousand years. The big migration across Beringia was six thousand years before that. At that time, the ancestors of the Chinese, Indians and Mesopotamians were nomadic hunter-gatherers with no permanent settlements, and their "culture" was limited to what they could carry, since there were no domesticated animals to help. There were no Jews or even Canaanites yet, no Israelite tribes to become lost.If Indian refugees had come here ( or Jewish refugees for that matter), there would be more proof also, such as... art (elephants are hard to forget)The aboriginal Americans hunted the mastodon to extinction. Are there no renditions of this animal in their art?Bows & arrows did not reach this hemisphere until the last millennium.Check me but I'm fairly certain they were invented here, as they were invented independently in many places, not brought by immigrants.Being in the stone age, did not make Native Peoples 'uncivilized.'Well actually it did, but that's not such an insult. "Civilization" merely means "the building of cities." It was a quantum advance in technology, just like agriculture, metallurgy, writing, engines, electronics and computers. "Uncivilized" people are simply people who live in farming or fishing villages (Neolithic) or nomadic hunter-gatherers (Mesolithic).

In the context of this debate, the key impact of the building of cities was probably the sociological one: for the first time people learned to live in harmony and cooperation with strangers. "Uncivilized" people are those who have never had a reason to learn to trust strangers, who regard them as competitors for scarce resources or as bandits who will steal their surplus wealth (stored food, clothing, etc.).

Yet civilization is a gradual process. Most of the native peoples of what is now the USA and Canada never quite got to the point of building true cities, yet many of them had made the necessary first step of establishing trade among their villages. This facilitated both overcoming the human ape species's pack-social instinct to drive off outsiders, as well as allowing the human ape species's strong curiosity to demystify the differences among them.Gavin Menzies claims that a massive Chinese fleet of huge junks and support ships made a two-year circumnavigation of the globe, with extensive exploration of the Americas, nearly a century before Magellan and Columbus.This is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof. Don't forget that China was several thousand years into the world's longest continuous civilization, with an elaborate government, an ancient written language, and plenty of chroniclers and historians. The Chinese of that extremely recent era (from their perspective) were described in written accounts as accomplished sailors (but from everything I've read ) they didn't much care to lose sight of the land and they were not noted for a driving curiosity. They could have sailed north along their coastline, past Alaska, and down the American coast--especially twenty thousand years ago when sea level was much lower--and indeed one of the not-at-all-crackpot theories competing with the hike across Beringia is just that. But if you want intrepid explorers you'd best look at the Polynesians, who settled both Madagascar and Hawaii.Why is this in Comparative Religion? It seems like it belongs in the plain old Religion forum.It started in Human Science or something like that. The first postings fit quite well in C.R. Six-page threads have a habit of morphing into something different from the original discussion. :)

[EmptyForceOfChi]

the book of moron is true.

peace.

[kmguru]

on a related matter...

Cave sites in Sri Lanka have yielded the earliest record of modern homo sapiens in South Asia. They were dated to 34,000 years ago . (Kennedy 2000: 180). mtDNA analysis dates the immigration of Homo sapiens to South Asia to 70 to 60 thousand years ago.

Based on a syntheses of fossil, artifact, and genetic data, Michael Petraglia and Hannah James argue that modern humans arrived there about 70,000 years ago.

[Avatar]

Why is this in Comparative Religion? I haven't read the thread (can't be fucked right now), but it seems like it belongs in the plain old Religion forum.

I have no idea! Someone has moved this thread here from somewhere.
I guess it is kinda anthropological... :bugeye:

[WildBlueYonder]

In the mean time, the trade between India and China goes back thousands of years with a common border.
tibet used to be a formatable kingdom, it stands between China & India, not saying no contact, because there was, just not a common border until recently
silk road for sure, Buddhism next

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Silkroutes.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Buddhism

So, it is possible that the Native Americans could be the descendants of a group of Eurasians that moved on due to war.
wouldn't their DNA stay eurasian? or do you mean mixed?

[kmguru]

tibet used to be a formatable kingdom, it stands between China & India, not saying no contact, because there was, just not a common border until recently silk road for sure, Buddhism next

It was around 1000 BC. But the people are of Chinese Origin. Indian, even presently has 3 groups of people - the Aryans with some caucasian features, the Dravidians with some African features and the Aborigins with some Chinese features.

It does not take a genius to figure out over a span of 60,000 years who went where. Anything north of the greater India is China in terms of the population features and hence my comment.

Somewhere I read, Common mtDNA found between people in Eastern Africa, India and Australia.

wouldn't their DNA stay eurasian? or do you mean mixed?

Everything is mixed except the location where the races originated.

[elsyarango]

it seems like a racist book

[Orleander]

The book of Mormon is as true as the Bible.

[kmguru]

The book of Mormon is as true as the Bible.

How can you say that? One fiction is written by one person, the other one written by 72 people. Should not the majority count? :D

[Orleander]

How can you say that? One fiction is written by one person, the other one written by 72 people. Should not the majority count? :D

ah yep, my bad. Its ALMOST as true as the Bible. ;)

[flameofanor5]

I think it's false, but i dont feel like debating it. That would require me to get one of the Morman bibles, studying it, and studying many other thoughts and beliefs. Also, nice job on thinking of such a great topic, and putting so much time into writting this.

[flameofanor5]

How can you say that? One fiction is written by one person, the other one written by 72 people. Should not the majority count? :D

Uhm, if 10million people believe a lie, it's still a lie.

[WildBlueYonder]

The book of Mormon is as true as the Bible.Actually, the BoM has a BIG PROBLEM, its historic, you can see the evolution of its leadership & core beliefs, there were trial transcripts, diaries, newspaper articles, shipping & steerage records & burial sites (with decomposing human bodies)

since BoM is the foundation stone on which JS jr.& the LDS based their claims upon, I'll shred it a little for easier digestion:
1. claims to be the history of the Americas circa 600 BC to 400 AD
2. just on DNA evidence, proves the BoM false
3. includes many anachronisms; horses, metal work, Old World ag
4. linguistics proves it wrong
5. archeology proves it wrong
6. claim to be the restored Primitive church of the early Christians, yet no evidence of ancient Mormon temples, rituals, liturgy, clergy, or wards uncovered here or in the Middle East
7. no evidence of Reformed Egyptian, the language of the BoM
++++7a. as a corollary, the translation of the "Book of Abraham" hieroglyphics from a papyri disproves JS jr's Egyptian translating abilities

It should be quite obvious that present scholarship has revealed that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God as he had claimed. It follows that if he did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God, then it would be very easy to conclude that he did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God either.
When Joseph first gave his translation, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are. He was safe in saying anything he wanted to and there would be no way of proving him wrong. But with the resurfacing of the same papyri he used to do his Book of Abraham translation, and the fact that he did not in any way do it correctly, should be proof enough

from: http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm

burial site
Joseph and Hyrum Smith's bodies were returned to Nauvoo the next day. The bodies were cleaned and examined, and death masks were made, preserving their facial features and structures.

A public viewing was held on 29 June 1844, after which empty coffins weighted with sandbags were used at the public burial. (This was done to prevent theft or mutilation of the bodies.) The actual coffins bearing the bodies of the Smith brothers were initially buried under the unfinished Nauvoo House, then disinterred and deeply reburied under an out-building on the Smith homestead. The exact location of the gravesite was soon lost to memory.

In 1928 Frederick M. Smith, president of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and grandson of Joseph Smith, fearing that rising water from the Mississippi River would destroy the gravesite, authorized civil engineer William O. Hands to conduct an excavation to find Joseph and Hyrum's bodies. Hands conducted extensive digging on the Smith homestead, and located the bodies, as well as finding the remains of Joseph's wife, Emma, which had been buried in the same place. The remains—which were badly decomposed—were examined and photographed, and the bodies were reinterred.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

[devon]

It is quite clear from many areas of study that the Book of Mormon is a product of the early 19th century. Studies in archaeology, genetics, linguistics, etc., all show this.

In particular, David Persuitte's book, Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon, provides an informative, revealing biography of Joseph Smith during his early years, and it provides a very extensive listing of parallels between the Book of Mormon and Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews: or the Tribes of Israel in America. This book shows quite well that the Book of Mormon was a product of the time in which Joseph Smith lived.

[lucifers angel]

i am a mormon, but i have not practiced the faith for a good few years now, however i would like to think the Book Of Mormon is true i however dont think it is,

[PieAreSquared]

really depends who you ask doesn't it, like any religious text

[Xylene]

The sad thing about faith is that it demands you believe in something even when there is a whole world of evidence against it. Some could point at the sky and say it was a fish provided some religious text said so.

Good point; one of the Greek philosophers, I forget which one, said that if cows could have a god, it would have horns--which is absolutely off-topic, I know: anyway, if the ancestors of the Mormons were over here in the States a few thousand years ago building their cities and fighting their wars, as the BoM seems to suggest, surely there'd be a bit more physical evidence to be found? Besides, what happened to the Golden Tablets? If you wanted evidence of unearthly contact and divine revelation, wouldn't you want to hold onto those plates? Yet they vanish, or never existed--if they did exist, it's a bit slipshod to let them get lost somewhere, considering they are essentially the founding document of Mormonism...could you imagine anyone being so clumsy or incompetent as to lose the original 1776 copy of the Declaration of Independence, or burning or otherwise disposing of the Magna Carta?

[FelixC]

It is quite clear from many areas of study that the Book of Mormon is a product of the early 19th century. Studies in archaeology, genetics, linguistics, etc., all show this...
This book shows quite well that the Book of Mormon was a product of the time in which Joseph Smith lived.

one of my ex-co-workers gave me a stack of Biblical Archeology Review (BAR) magazines when I visited there last week for a going-away luncheon.

the reason I bring that up is that the thing I noticed right away is that BAR has pictures of ancient portraits & seals & is inviting people to go dig in the Holy Land on its covers. Yet when you look for the same thing in LDS/Mormon sites you find sites that look suspiciously like Maya to me, they give tours to Book of Mormon 'lands' & seem to have spin & more spin instead of evidence. LDS stuff/magazines do have Egyptian & Maya stuff on their covers, but it seems no real Book of Mormon stuff.

there is a pageant held at Palmyra NY that re-enacts one of the scenes from the Book of Mormon that supposedly happened there. My guess is that if 2 civilizations died there, it would seem to me that anywhere you dug there, there should be skeletons, swords, & other reminders of those long-lost civilizations?

so, my question would be, would anyone believe me if I started to tell stories of ancient Rogaas, Glandoras & Elvia, the ancient empires of 2nd century Europe if no one & I mean no one had ever found any remains how would you know if I was telling the truth, if no evidence exists to prove it? it is supposed to be a history of north America before the Europeans got here after all.
how do we know that there was an ancient Rome, Greece & Egypt?

[Fraggle Rocker]

How do we know that there was an ancient Rome, Greece & Egypt?Two ways.1. There is a continuity of historical record. Since the invention of the technology of writing, the proliferation of written records from sources diverse both culturally and geographically makes it relatively straightforward to authenticate major events like the existence of entire civilizations. Many early records were carved in stone, which is easy to both read and date. 2. In addition to the written records, civilizations leave behind kilotons of artifacts which can be identified culturally by anthropologists and dated rather precisely by radioactive isotopes. Even precivilized cultures often leave things behind that make them easy to identify and place in historical context.

[Dinosaur]

When the Dinosaur was 9-10 years old & learning to use his father's Sextion's Omnimeter (a circular Slide Rule), he read an article in the local newspaper about evidence of an ancient civilization.

The article included a picture of a rock with some vague scratches on it. I was amazed that some archaeologist could deduce the existence of a Bronze/Iron civilization in the Western USA from that rock.

I mentioned the article to my father. He said: “I am guessing that the archaeologist is from some university in Utah.” I asked how did you know that? He explained that the Mormon bible had descriptions of civilizations like the Egyptians & Babylonians existing in North America a few thousand years ago. Their scholars/theologians were always trying to prove the validity of the Book of Mormon & often came up with such theories. Since the Mormons were mostly in Utah, it was not a wild guess that the author of the article was from some University in Utah.

[desi]

Written language was around the world except it seems for North America, where the big war in Book of Mormon was fought. The lack of artifacts reminds me of China. After the Communists took over they got rid of the old stuff and replaced it with what chairman Mao considered kosher. A similar thing happened in Cambodia where millions were killed, especially the educated. Much of their history would be lost forever if the world did not know what it was like there before the killing fields. We can even talk about Africa and how Chaka Zulu destroyed many civilizations in his time. What about Carthage after the Romans had the city leveled and the fields salted?

Who really knows what the genetic genotype or blood type of the lost tribe of Israel was? We can assume many things but we don't really know.

You think you get a handle on historical facts and new finds end up making a mess of things. Like the recent discovery of a city in South America were the architecture is not similar to other native Indian types and the residents are thought to have been the blond haired and blue eyed Cloud Warriors. The fact is we don't really know what happened beyond recent memory. Especially in places where historical record is lacking. The Book of Mormon is the story of one group of people annihilating another. If that happened and the victor people lived on for over a thousand years, would there be much evidence of the people who are long since dead? It would be like Stone Henge in England. Somebody put those rocks there but we're not sure who, why, or how.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Written language was around the world except it seems for North America, where the big war in Book of Mormon was fought.Not true. The indigenous civilization of North America (Olmec/Maya/Aztec) had developed written language. The Christian occupying forces methodically burned the Aztec libraries because they were "heathen." Very little material survived. The only one of mankind's six independently developed civilizations (Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, China, Olmec and Inca) that never invented writing was the Inca. They were the youngest of the six and Christians got there and obliterated it before it had a chance to get that far.

Your sentence would have been correct if it said South America rather than North America. However, North America north of the Rio Grande was culturally separated from what is now Mexico and Central America. No indigenous civilization arose there and the Olmec civilization had not spread that far north. At the time of the Christian occupation several tribes in what is now the USA had advanced to a Neolithic culture (agriculture and the permanent villages it both requires and makes possible), but many were still Mesolithic (nomadic hunter-gatherers).

There was never a bronze age in northern North America. Chief Sequoia of the Cherokee nation invented an alphabet for his people's language (actually a syllabary, to be precise), but only after learning the European writing system.

Writing is a technology that is invented by a civilization once it has had a couple of millennia to develop, generally in its bronze age. The impetus is usually the need to keep records of business transactions, as the economy of scale and division of labor that characterize bronze age civilizations make those transactions ever more complex.

There was never a bronze age in northern North America. Chief Sequoia of the Cherokee nation invented an alphabet for his people's language (actually a syllabary, to be precise), but only after learning the European writing system.

[phlogistician]

The book of Mormon is as true as the Bible.

I don't know how you could make that statement. Have you read both, for starters?

The NT might have some grains of truth in it. Whereas the BOM is a fabrication based upon the bible, and other sources. Other Joseph Smith fabrications are clearly untrue, in 'The Pearl of Great Price' he describes the inhabitants of the Moon. He was a conman, and very good at his job.

[Syzygys]

i am a mormon,....however i would like to think the Book Of Mormon is true i however dont think it is,

Is it because you would feel less misled?

[Christopher777]

The best I found on the tribes of Isreal, where they have moved on, plus so much more is on google jahtruth and abraham

Enjoy the read!

Also on the prophecies : jahtruth and horse They both come up first or close.

Love Christopher

[EdgeHead]

Ahh Mormonism. Magic Underwear and all!

I'd say false. Then again, I'd say that about any religion, really.

[swarm]

I do not believe this theory, because except for the Vikings, there's no real evidence that any other culture had an impact on any Native American tribe, until Columbus.

There is some evidence the chinese may have done some exploration of the west coast.

Mormanism was stolen religious fiction.

[kmguru]

May be Joseph Smith took up a challenge that he can create a religion out of thin air and people will eat it up. He succeeded....

[phlogistician]

May be Joseph Smith took up a challenge that he can create a religion out of thin air and people will eat it up. He succeeded....

Worked that way for L. Ron Hubbard. Although I think in Joseph Smith's case he did it for the money, as he was a known con artist.

[jmpet]

The Book of Mormon is a total fabrication; a made up story.

Mormons came a knockin and I read as much of their book as a could stomach- before laughing hysterically... I could have written a better bible than that and I'm not a great writer.

There's ultimately one thing missing from Mormon doctrine: a shred of proof.

HEY FOLKS! You ever see a female Mormon? Ever wonder why Mormons are always young men between 16 and 22?

Didja ever wonder why males at their sexual peak and in the prime of their lives are sent thousands of miles away from their nest- where all the 16-22 year old females are, and didja ever wonder why Mormon women marry older men?

And while we're at it, have you ever heard of the lost boys? No- not the movie-the class of people: male ex-Mormon youths who didn't make the cut so they were apostated- thrown away. Literally dropped off at the side of the road penniless and ignorant- full of Mormon ideals.

No? There's over a thousand of them in Salt Lake City- you should Google it sometime. Most of them survive through prostitution but most of them die from crack within a year or two- it's a wonderful read.

Amazing... all the good little male Mormons are sent thousands of miles away for years and all the bad little Mormons are thrown out. What's what leave? Middle aged men and little 16-22 year olds in a closed society.

Isn't America grand?!!

[phlogistician]

You ever see a female Mormon?

Yes actually! A couple of female American missionaries tried converting a lapsed Catholic I used to share a house with. They were a hoot. They had totally different politics, and disagreed on most subjects to do with society, and when asked what the position of the Church, or Mormonism itself was the answer? 'God doesn't get involved in Politics'. Riiiiiiiiiiiight, politics is about people, plain and simple, but God/Moroni isn't interested?

Anyway, we asked them some difficult questions, they brought round a church elder who also couldn't answer our questions, so they gave up coming.

[Dinosaur]

It is my understanding that Mormon church membership is similar to The Free Masons & other fraternity-like organizations. For example: The Free masons have 3 peon-like degrees. I think they are Apprentice, Journeyman, & Mastor Mason. The the top degree is 33.

I do not think you can be more than a peon Mormon if you do not spend some time evangelizing in the world of non-Mormons.

[joepistole]

Joseph Smith was a Free Mason. But he was expelled from the organization for taking what he had learned in the lodge and making it a religion. Free Masonry likes to stay away from favoring any single religion. Free Masons welcome members from all races and and all religions. Free Masonry does not want to be seen as or advocate religion, although members must believe in God.

There are no degrees in the Mormon Religion, but there are three levels of the priesthood.

If you get into Mormonism, there is a lot of symbolism borrowed from Free Masonry.

[holmeise]

False. End of discussion.

[joepistole]

The problem I have with this thread is that it attacks a religion. The Mormon religion is a good religion. There are a lot of really good Mormons. So to attack or hurt their belief system is wrong.

On the other hand, there is this issue of truth. It is a tough balancing act.

[Fraggle Rocker]

The problem I have with this thread is that it attacks a religion. The Mormon religion is a good religion. There are a lot of really good Mormons. So to attack or hurt their belief system is wrong. On the other hand, there is this issue of truth. It is a tough balancing act.This is the Comparative Religion subforum, not Religion. This is a place of science. Religion, being an unreasoned faith in the ability of supernatural forces to affect conditions in the natural universe, is unscientific at best and antiscientific at worst. Therefore it is a legitimate target of criticism here.

According to the Rule of Laplace, when any extraordinary assertion is presented without extraordinary evidence, we are not obliged to treat it with respect. To treat a religion with respectful criticism exceeds our obligation.

Just because members of a religion manage to be really good people doesn't make their religion a really good belief system. Correlation does not imply causation; that's one of the most popular--and most dangerous--fallacies on earth.

[jmpet]

Mormonism borders a cult in the sense that it teaches its youth a skewed vision of reality from birth... it teaches them "we're right and they're wrong, period." from birth.

The problem with this is that Mormonism itself is a flawed religion... it's an overly detailed, poorly written fabrication, invented by Joseph Smith.

[FelixC]

1. This is the Comparative Religion subforum, not Religion. This is a place of science.
2. Religion, being an unreasoned faith in the ability of supernatural forces to affect conditions in the natural universe, is unscientific at best and antiscientific at worst.
3. Therefore it is a legitimate target of criticism here.
4. According to the Rule of Laplace, when any extraordinary assertion is presented without extraordinary evidence, we are not obliged to treat it with respect.
5. To treat a religion with respectful criticism exceeds our obligation.
6. Just because members of a religion manage to be really good people doesn't make their religion a really good belief system. Correlation does not imply causation; that's one of the most popular--and most dangerous--fallacies on earth.

hi FR; thanks for clarifying some points & ground rules.
you know you guys are giving me headaches trying to research all these things you're talking about, like "Rule of Laplace", etc...(not just in this subforum, but in most, though there are a few people that are just stumps) before I put in my 2 cents worth
1. a place of science; meaning to propose a hypothesis on a problem or set of circumstances, dissect it, experiment, prove or disprove, write findings, etc..., thats the ideal here, ok
2. I listen to Hank Hanegraaff on Bible Answerman & he says that Christianity is faith grounded in reason, to me, I'm Christian because I believe that something outside of the universe created it, its too wonderful, I believe that God created the universe to be self-sustaining by repeating cycles; Big Bang, water, carbon, life, etc...I can't comprehend our life as being random chance, it seems too organized to me; birds, bees, prey, predator, seasons, I had an art teacher that gave us a project, variation on a theme, thats what the universe seems like to me & I believe in ID because of all the patterns I see
3. agreed, every belief system must be tried & true, otherwise why follow it
4. if I understand this right, it means any outrageous claims proposed by adherents, can not be taken seriously unless they prove it
Mormon claims that BoM empires roamed the US have had to shrink drastically to a small strip of Central America because of the lack of proof, so that those Nephites and Lamanites empires are now claimed to have been in Maya land, I guess because there aren't too many Maya scientists to push back on those claims & settle it for us, there are even tours to take happy campers to Belize, Guatemala & Mexico to see these BoM ruins, I guess the American education system failed them, we are the worse in the world in geography & history after all, (math & science too) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
5. as long as we are respectful with each other, right?
6. I believe that, I believe that JW, LDS are taught to be good, as an example to outsiders, suits, best dresses, white shirt & ties, best behavior
but they definitely have different beliefs about the Bible

[swarm]

...

The Book of Mormon was plagiarized from "Manuscript Found" an unpublished novel by a retired Congregational minister Solomon Spalding (d. 1816) by the lovely convicted con man and philanderer Joseph Smith.

You can read it here:
http://www.angelfire.com/az2/arizonadry/truth/spalding.html

[FelixC]

1. Another point is, that any one coming over to the Western Hemisphere with iron, steel or shipbuilding technology
2. would have made a huge impact on stone-age people
3. Anybody with metal swords would have become kings or great warriors of myth.... These swords would have been treasured and handed down for generations, sort of like the Arthurian legend of England.
4. Mormons, that claim that the Native American Indians are descendant from the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel",... any reference to "Lost Tribes" is in error, since I think that any descendents of the Assyrian Captivity stayed on in the remnants of that empire, lived as Jews there (so they were not ‘lost’), up until the founding of the modern State of Israel, when they immigrated to Israel from present-day Syria, Iraq & Iran (the borders of the old Assyrian Empire)
5. As an example, I would like to point out this: look at the Mexican people, a mixture of Spanish & Indian blood. The Spanish dialect spoken by Mexicans, has Aztec & other Indian words in it. Mexican food, has Spanish & native foods mixed together. Mexican art & architecture, are a mixture of European & Indian styles. Why? Because there was definite, provable historical contact.

Hi WBY:
1. yeah, thats what the Book of Mormon says, steel bows too; "Nephi's Near Eastern bow was "made of fine steel" (1 Ne 16.18) http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/050801steel.html
2. stone-age, like cavemen? I find that hard to believe, how exactly did they build those pyramids & cities then?
3. that would be an interesting re-telling of an old legend
4. thats an interesting theory, time for me to google that
5. I think that alone probably blows Mormon mythology out of the water

[Saven]

More like the book of morons. No.

[Diode-Man]

The Book of Mormon was most likely mistranslated

I wonder what you people think of that haha

[JustLovely]

I agree, the book of Mormon is not true. The only true revelation is the Koran. If you take the time to read the Koran, ask Mohammad for forgiveness, then you will see Allah in the afterlife.

[FelixC]

1. I agree, the book of Mormon is not true
2. The only true revelation is the Koran
3. If you take the time to read the Koran,
4. ask Mohammad for forgiveness,
5. then you will see Allah in the afterlife.

hi JL:
just a few comments
1. me too
2. how can the Koran be true, since its apparently been altered? there are 1000 of korans that were found in Yemen with different verses, different chapter orders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhclM-Vatrs
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran
3. I started, but it seems just as repetitious as the Book of Mormon & boring
4. why? he's dead, he's not the messiah or the mahdi, were in the hadiths does it say that?
5. I don't think so, the more I read about islam, the more I believe that islam is a made-up religion, a mental virus that is attached to several self-replicating memes that reinforce islamic mindset completely, so it will probably conquer the world
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/terrifying-brilliance-of-islamic.html

so learn arabic now all you infidels, your time has come, submit now or pay the jizya tax or die, your choice, you have been warned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMW_CiedmD0&feature=channel_page

[Dinosaur]

It is not the Koran which proves the Book of Mormon is fallacious. It is the Chronicles of Isis, Osiris, & Ra. I do not know how to read hieroglyphics & have been looking for a translation.

Postings in another thread claim that the ancient Egyptians knew everything, which is what sent me on my quest for the Chronicles.

If I do not find a translation of the chronicles, I think I will investigate Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite, et cetera. I always admired the Greeks of the Golden Age. Maybe they had the right ideas way back when.

These recent religions like Islam, Christianity, LDS, Scientology, et cetera do not impress me, although maybe Wicca has some good ideas. I wonder how old Wicca is?

[pjdude1219]

bout 50 years

[Dinosaur]

I thought Wicca was based on The Driuds or some other very old culture.

[pjdude1219]

I thought Wicca was based on The Driuds or some other very old culture.

based on but not a direct link to.

[-ND-]

Is it true that in the book of Mormon, it says that if you do not believe in Mormon you will burn in hell?

[PieAreSquared]

Book of Mormon: true or false?

false... just another religious spin from a shyster ...in the US is all

mose only had stone tablets... JS had golden ones...whoa... and magic glasses

[-ND-]

anyone can answer my question?

[pjdude1219]

The book of mormon is bullshit.

[dixonmassey]

All religious books are Bull Shit as far as answers to eternal questions go. The newer the book the stronger the stench, the greater efforts are required to brainwash oneself into believing it. Of course I have not read all the religious scripts, but you don't really need to do that, it's ALL BULLSHIT.

[-ND-]

So im assuming that it does claim you will go to hell. If that is the case, I feel sorry for all mormons and their sad religion;cult more like.

[jmpet]

Why is this thread still alive? The book of Mormon is a joke, end of discussion.

[Diode-Man]

Any entities proposing to be God are merely creatures with super advanced technology perpetuating the greatest hoax of all time.

I haven't seen any of them, but lot's of preachers and other SOBs make claims.....

[WarAgainstError]

I have the Book of Mormon but have not been able to get through it due to time issues and other readings on my list.

[Marlin]

Is it true that in the book of Mormon, it says that if you do not believe in Mormon you will burn in hell?

It says no such thing. Mormon was just a man, a prophet-historian who abridged the history of an ancient people.

The message of the Book of Mormon is to believe in Christ, not Mormon.

[Drakkula]

Five questions you should ask yourself about the validity of the book of Mormons:

1. Linguistics. Why, if the American Indians were descended from Lehi, was there such diversity in their languages, and why were there no vestiges of Hebrew in any of them?
2. Why does the Book of Mormon say that Lehi found horses when he arrived in America? The horse did not exist in the Americas until the Spaniards brought them over in the sixteenth century.
3. Why was Nephi stated to have a bow of steel? Jews did not have steel at that time, and no iron was smelted in the Americas until the Spanish colonization.
4. Why does the Book of Mormon mention “swords and cimeters” when scimitars (the current spelling) did not come about until the rise of Islam after 500 A.D.?
5. Why does the Book of Mormon mention silk, when silk did not exist in the Americas at that time?

The evidence is clear that the Book of Mormons cannot be correct, and Joseph Smith was a false prophet who has deceived many.

Maybe they should change their name to the Church of Morons.

[John99]

The horse did not exist in the Americas until the Spaniards brought them over in the sixteenth century.

how do you know?

[Marlin]

Five questions you should ask yourself about the validity of the book of Mormons:

1. Linguistics. Why, if the American Indians were descended from Lehi, was there such diversity in their languages, and why were there no vestiges of Hebrew in any of them?
2. Why does the Book of Mormon say that Lehi found horses when he arrived in America? The horse did not exist in the Americas until the Spaniards brought them over in the sixteenth century.
3. Why was Nephi stated to have a bow of steel? Jews did not have steel at that time, and no iron was smelted in the Americas until the Spanish colonization.
4. Why does the Book of Mormon mention “swords and cimeters” when scimitars (the current spelling) did not come about until the rise of Islam after 500 A.D.?
5. Why does the Book of Mormon mention silk, when silk did not exist in the Americas at that time?

The evidence is clear that the Book of Mormons cannot be correct, and Joseph Smith was a false prophet who has deceived many.

Maybe they should change their name to the Church of Morons.

All of these concerns have been successfully addressed by LDS (Mormon) apologists. I suggest that anyone who has such questions should have a look at FAIR Apologetics (http://www.fairlds.org/)

[spidergoat]

how do you know?

They were extinct, that's a well known fact.

[Marlin]

They were extinct, that's a well known fact.

Here are some quotes taken from an article called Horses in the Book of Mormon (http://mi.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=129):

"Horses are mentioned only once in the land northward during the Jaredite period—that is, during the prosperous reign of King Emer around 2500 B.C. and before the great drought sometime in the third millennium B.C. (see Ether 9:19, 30—35). Since horses are not mentioned again in the Jaredite record, it is possible that they became extinct in the region north of the narrow neck of land following that time.

"Horses were known to some Nephites and Lamanites from about 600 B.C. to the time of the Savior. They were found in the "land of first inheritance" during the time of Nephi, son of Lehi (see 1 Nephi 18:25), and in the land of Nephi during the days of Enos (see Enos 1:21). They were also utilized by at least some of the Lamanite elite during the days of King Lamoni in the same general region during the first century B.C. (see Alma 18:9—12). The text does not mention horses in the land of Nephi after that time. The only other region associated with horses was the general land of Zarahemla at the time of the war with the Gadianton robbers, just prior to the birth of Jesus Christ (see 3 Nephi 3:22; 4:4; 6:1). There is no indication in the text that horses were indigenous to that region. The Savior's reference to horses in 3 Nephi 21:14 is a prophecy of the latter days and need not be interpreted as referring to Nephite horses. In the Book of Mormon, horses are never mentioned after the time of Christ.

"In short, the Book of Mormon claims only that horses were known to some New World peoples before the time of Christ in certain limited regions of the New World. Thus we need not conclude from the text that horses were universally known in the Americas throughout pre-Columbian history. . . ."

--------------------------------

"Even if horses had been abundantly used and had been a vital element in the culture of Book of Mormon people (a claim never made by Book of Mormon writers), one cannot assume that evidence for this would be plentiful or obvious from the current archaeological record. . . ."

-------------------------------

"The horse was the basis of the wealth and military power of the Huns of central Asia (fourth and fifth centuries A.D.). Nonetheless, according to S. Bokonyi, a leading authority on the zoological record for central Asia, "We know very little of the Huns' horses. It is interesting that not a single usable horse bone has been found in the territory of the whole empire of the Huns. This is all the more deplorable as contemporary sources mention these horses with high appreciation."5

"The lack of archaeological evidence for the Hunnic horse is rather significant in terms of references to horses in the Book of Mormon. During the two centuries of their dominance, the Huns must have possessed hundreds of thousands of horses. If Hunnic horse bones are so rare, notwithstanding the abundance of horses during the Hunnic empire, how can we expect abundant archaeological evidence for pre-Columbian horses in the New World, especially given the scant and comparatively conservative references to horses by Book of Mormon writers? . . ."

------------------------

"Given the limitations of zoo-archaeology, and also those of other potentially helpful disciplines when probing many centuries into the forgotten past, it is unwise to dismiss the references in the Book of Mormon to horses as erroneous."