death penalty [Archive] - SciForums.com

CounslerCoffee

11-30-02, 01:31 AM

If your against the death penality Ive got a few names for you:

Charles Manson
Jeffery "Im going to eat you" Damor
Usama O' lala Laden

Why arent these people dead? Well, some of them are dead but not Charlie. I just dont see the logic behind the system.

it costs more to execute a felon.

Not if you stone them to death. Or lock them away in a hole somewhere without any food, they'd die of starvation.

"Hello Im Counselor Coffee. You should buy my book, 101 ways to execute a felon"

Joeman

11-30-02, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by Datura
it costs more to execute a felon.

That is because we don't kill them quick enough.

Xev

11-30-02, 03:09 AM

if you kill them faster more innocent people would be killed faster

Datura

11-30-02, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
it costs more to execute a felon.

Not if you stone them to death. Or lock them away in a hole somewhere without any food, they'd die of starvation.

I take it you're not in favor of human rights.

Merlijn

11-30-02, 04:16 AM

oh no not again.....

If one thinks about it, there are very few sound ethical reasons to be in favor of capuital punishment.

Also there is no deterring effect (see graph in previous thread on this subject).

It only serves the primitive need for revenge. But should a juridical system (thus not a person) be guided by such emotions?

The "you loose all your rights after killing a person" has no rational at all: why is that what reasons does one have for such an idea?

I am glad I live in a country in which capital punishment has been abandoned for the reason that "the legislator must be wiser than the voice of the people, however loud."

Joeman

11-30-02, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Xev
if you kill them faster more innocent people would be killed faster

Yeah you're right. According to movies from Hollywood, just about all deathrow inmates are innocent.

Joeman

11-30-02, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Merlijn
If one thinks about it, there are very few sound ethical reasons to be in favor of capuital punishment.
[/B]

Why do we need an ethical reason for everything?

In the case of domestic terrorist like Timothy Mcvey or now John badass Muhamod, killing them gives general public a sense of closure and relief. It is worth it. Interesting thing is in the case of the serial sniper, a lot of politicians who are known to against capital punishment want him dead. He has been terrorizing entire state of Maryland before he was captured. If politicians say his life should be spared, a lot of people will be very angry. Practial reasons outweigh ethical reasons in this case. I am not arguing what is more ethical here. I believe capital punishment is more ethical.

In general there are two parts which the government must do to criminals in jail. Rehibilitation and Punishment. If people cannot trust the government to do the punishment part for whatever reason, they will seek alternative means. I have seen that happen to other countries. You have chaos.

Merlijn

11-30-02, 11:20 AM

Evil transsexual vampire,
you misunderstand the meaning of punisment. You confuse it with revenge!

Joeman

11-30-02, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Merlijn
Evil transsexual vampire,
you misunderstand the meaning of punisment. You confuse it with revenge!

No I do not. I made my point about the rehibilitation and punishment in that thread about this teen blow up people's mailboxes when I first joined if you still remember.

There is no way punishment can be properly administered in a civilized society. It is even pointless to discuss best punishment for criminals.

Punishment is going to be whatever shape or form which people feel the criminal is punished. After all in this case the criminal is dead, the all it matters is people who are still alive.

CounslerCoffee

11-30-02, 05:04 PM

Xev:
if you kill them faster more innocent people would be killed faster

Yeah but how many people would rob a bank if they knew that end result would be death for everyone in the bank?

Coffee's Opinion:

Destroy the wicked. Even if they did just steal $5. Nobody would ever steal $5 again.

Note: Most recently my 16 year old uncle stole $20 from me. He is now in a juvenile center. He should be dead.

Maia

12-06-02, 08:24 PM

Coffee, stop whining. Someone stole a 300 buck coat from me. I don't want that person dead. All I want is the monetary value of the coat "loaned", plus massive compound interest.

grazzhoppa

12-06-02, 11:40 PM

The thing with it is it cost lots of money to keep people in jail if you dont kill them but if you kill them then there really not suffering for what they did(my opinon anyway)
The reason why it costs so much for a prision is because if you mistreat them, they will have not learned anything and some of them could become extremely angry at "the system" and cause more harm then they originally did.

I think there should be a death penalty, but it should be used in strict manner, where only extreme crimes warrant just the option of it. I feel it isn't "ethical" to take a person's life in the name of keeping a society under control.

As mentioned by Joeman, executions are more political than ethical, and they give the public a sense of trust in their government to "uphold" the rules to how to live your life in a "civilized" manner....the reasons for executions are full of contradictions nowadays. But I agree that it is more political than ethical.

Rick

12-07-02, 06:35 AM

While in Rome we saw this movie where a guy kills a Son who is a responsible for his whole family.The person who kills the son then gets an Incredible puishment.He has to bear the burden of the family for 10 years and earn bread and milk for them.
At the end of the movie,The murderer cries and realizes his mistake.

I think it was a brilliant Idea.You just keep an eye on this man,but just put him in the circumstances of the man whom he murdered and then if he doesnt work exactly as he did,you contrain him more and more...
But seriously giving death Penalty is not the ultimate answer to all people's errors.Crimes are still committed.Counseller pointed out that it would stop,but it hasnt and it will not.
You dont need Punishment,You dont need a Hitler,You need A Mahatma Gandhi to reform these criminals.

bye!

Maia

12-07-02, 06:29 PM

How about hamstringing all of the convicted person's limbs, removing part of the spinal cord so that s/he cannot move, and releasing him/her? Better punishment than death I'd say.

Lord Nikon

12-09-02, 04:44 PM

i must admit.....i kind of agree with MrCofee, in that if someone commits a crime against you, the reprocusions for that person should be so great that they will never dare do it again.....and also, noone else will ever want to do it again. this may mean capital punishment......so be it.

goofyfish

12-09-02, 04:50 PM

And when you are executed and it is later discovered that you
were innocent, what do they say to your family? "Oops, sorry"?

:m: Peace.

fadingCaptain

12-09-02, 05:09 PM

"the legislator must be wiser than the voice of the people, however loud."
I don't like this quote much...it scares me actually.

Anyway, the death penalty is valid because a person serving a life sentence is contributing nothing to society. The death penalty can help alleviate prison overcrowding. The death penalty brings closure and a sense of 'justice' for the families of victims.

Lastly, killing someone by injection is more human than sticking them in a tiny box for the rest of their life.

fadingCaptain

12-09-02, 05:12 PM

and it is later discovered that you were innocent
With DNA testing and such, hopefully this is not a significant problem. Of course, nothing is perfect...You have to balance the good vs. the bad. In this case, I think the good outweighs the risks.

goofyfish

12-09-02, 06:42 PM

With DNA testing and such, hopefully this is not a significant problem.
What is "significant"? For me it's one person killed unjustly.
So one of your loved ones is executed though they were innocent.
And that's okay with you because he good outweighs the risks?

:m: Peace.

Merlijn

12-09-02, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
I don't like this quote much...it scares me actually.

Anyway, the death penalty is valid because a person serving a life sentence is contributing nothing to society. The death penalty can help alleviate prison overcrowding. The death penalty brings closure and a sense of 'justice' for the families of victims.

Lastly, killing someone by injection is more human than sticking them in a tiny box for the rest of their life.

Probably you don't like the quote because you know that on this particular subject you would have nothing to say when wisdom, not numbers count!

So capital punishment is a economic thing, and solves the problem of overcrowding. Interesting...:bugeye:
And the sense of justice is something culturally defined. I know that in some places death is considered to be a good punishment for insulting somebody... does that justify the practice?

Datura

12-11-02, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
Anyway, the death penalty is valid because a person serving a life sentence is contributing nothing to society.

That isn't true. Some inmates turn their lives around and can even help those on the outside.

The death penalty can help alleviate prison overcrowding. The death penalty brings closure and a sense of 'justice' for the families of victims.

Keeping the death penalty in tact to help overcrowding equates with stupidity. Not every family feels justice or closure even if the culprit did receive the maximum sentence.

fadingCaptain

12-11-02, 06:39 PM

That isn't true. Some inmates turn their lives around and can even help those on the outside.
Yes they are paragons of virtue...I don't think all that many serial killers have helped people on the outside. And yes serial killers are the type of people normally given the death penalty. Are you actually arguing that people in prison serving life sentences are a valuable asset to society?

Keeping the death penalty in tact to help overcrowding equates with stupidity.
It is not the only reason but a nice benefit. The numbers aren't enough to make a major difference but something is better than nothing.

Not every family feels justice or closure even if the culprit did receive the maximum sentence.
Most families of murder victims want the death penalty for the perpetrator of the crime. I would bet this is so
even if those people did not support the death penalty beforehand. Why do you think this is so?

Lastly, how bout you giving me a good reason to abolish the death penalty?

Probably you don't like the quote because you know that on this particular subject you would have nothing to say when wisdom, not numbers count!
I don't like the quote because I value democracy.

And the sense of justice is something culturally defined. I know that in some places death is considered to be a good punishment for insulting somebody... does that justify the practice?
Yes, you are right it is culturally defined. Our culture has made this definition. If enough people agree with you then it will be changed.

What is "significant"? For me it's one person killed unjustly.
Yeah, this is a tough question. But I think the number of innocents killed is so small as to justify it.

goofyfish

12-12-02, 02:44 PM

And how about the second part of my question:
One of your loved ones is executed though they were innocent.
That's okay with you because the good outweighs the risks?

:m: Peace.

fadingCaptain

12-12-02, 03:15 PM

One of your loved ones is executed though they were innocent.
That's okay with you because the good outweighs the risks?
I don't think this question helps because it is such an extreme example. I will try and explain by first asking you:

What if your family is murdered. What justice do want for the murderer?

Now, your gut reaction might be that you would stick to your guns(so to speak :)) and not wish the death penalty. But I would say you cannot possibly know what your reaction would be until you were placed in that situation.

So, I can speculate that I would outraged if I had a loved one executed though innocent...but I do not know how this would affect my position on the death penalty. Although I will say that at some point you have to trust our judicial system...or else you have to change it. Great care is taken not to send an innocent to prison in the US...relatively speaking with the rest of the world at least.

I will say that I think the death penalty should be a rare sentence. Reserved for pre-meditated murders that are gruesome enough to warrant such a severe sentence. I do believe it can be a deterrant. For example, I think the DC sniper murders would warrant a death sentence.

goofyfish

12-12-02, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
I don't think this question helps because it is such an extreme example.It is not an extreme example for those to families where this is the case.I will say that at some point you have to trust our judicial system...or else you have to change it.The only change needed would be abolishment of the penalty. Bad enough that a person be wrongly convicted and sentenced to jail – at least in that case they can be set free. Death is irrevocable.Great care is taken not to send an innocent to prison in the USI’m not so sure that is truly the case, but will let it go.I do believe it can be a deterrant.Then how do we explain the difference in the murder rate per capita of the United States and the rate in other industrialized nations?

:m: Peace.

fadingCaptain

12-12-02, 03:58 PM

Then how do we explain the difference in the murder rate per capita of the United States and the rate in other industrialized nations?
I think it is due to lax gun control and a culture that fosters violence and greed. The deterrant of possible death is not near enough to overcome these issues.

goofyfish

12-12-02, 04:00 PM

So it is NOT effective as a deterrent. Why have it?

:m: Peace.

fadingCaptain

12-12-02, 04:13 PM

No, you misunderstand. It alone is not effective enough to bring US murder rates down to, say, Canadian rates. This is because of the issues I stated.
If the death penalty were abolished the rates would only be worse. So, I believe it is effective.

goofyfish

12-12-02, 04:37 PM

So how about states WITHIN the U.S. that don't have capital punishment, yet have fewer capital crimes?

:m: Peace.

fadingCaptain

12-12-02, 05:44 PM

Ok, I have done a little research and have to say I can find no evidence that links the death penalty with a reduction in murder rates...I will eat my words.

So, if the death penalty is not a deterrant should we keep it?

I still stand by my defense that the death penalty is usually the justice wanted by families of the victims. So basically it is revenge. Now, here is where I differ from many people...

I think revenge has its place. I think revenge is entirely human. When revenge is honest and direct, it can be helpful and good. Such as when someone has slaughtered dozens of random people through careful planning.

I do not feel all that strongly about it either way...give me some good reasons why the death penalty should be abolished.

Merlijn

12-12-02, 07:03 PM

also: revenge can be brutal and barbaric.

fadingCaptain

12-12-02, 07:05 PM

also: revenge can be brutal and barbaric.
Quite true.

Slacker47

12-19-02, 10:32 PM

If you are against the death penalty because many people are wrongly accused and put in jail/killed... go to www.ogrish.com (http://www.ogrish.com)

If the shit here doesnt scare the fuck out of you, then you have a problem. If this was the executive government here, i would never again curse. This could seriously change your views... fear changes people.

Merlijn

12-24-02, 04:21 AM

What scares me is not the images etc on the site, it is the number of people actually getting excited by, loving the thrill of, being confronted with such material. Reminds me of that many love the movie American history X, just because of the brutal scenes.
Also, many would go to public executions, e.g. like those in the European middle ages, just for fun.

Brian's mom: "Let's go to a stoning!"
Brian: "But mom we can go to a stoning any time."

I will not accept those people having as much to say as I do, in the name of democracy. I am smarter, so I can achieve more, but they have their numbers!
Yes, I know, democracy is the least evil of all known systems. But failing to see the inherent flaw is a major mistake!