I was raised up believing in creation and have been taught that evolution is false. Some quick points: Mutations do not get passed on to offspring unless the mutation was in the germ cell Mutations in bacteria and viruses never occur; there was always a strain that was resistent to antibiotics, it just rarely surfaces until the non resistant strain was killed off. The missing link is still missing. How did the matter that ignited the Big Bang get there? I'm keeping my mind open to this...please give reasons why you think evolution may be true
The Fossil Record. The dating of fossils come before the date of Creation. When you talk about mutations, try not to think nuclear reactor type. The mutation evolution talks about is that something went whacko in the process of being conceived and growing, so a new trait was created in the DNA, or lost. The genetic code of the mutation is part of the germ cell now. You are correct in some cases though. There are millions of missing links in the Fossil Record, new discoveries happen often, consider how much we learned in such a short period of time, and then think of how much we'll know in the future, evolution is a fairly new theory.
If you search this forum, you will find many many many threads about Creation vs. Evolution. I'll link some here: Creationism does NOT belong in Science My 2 Cents on Creation and Evolution Creationsim vs. Science (Religion Forum) What created "existence" (on Big Bang, Religion forum) Proof that earth is older then 6k years? (Religion Forum) Those are just some....
True. Though perhaps if a cell mutated very early on(say blastula stage, for eg.) and then went on to form germ cells... Absolutely false: Mutations have been observed time and time again in cells derived from a single parent bacterial cell. (Bacteria have no genes that aren't expressed). Sometimes it is a "strain that was resistent to antibiotics", though. True. Though this does not disprove evolution. If the missing link was found then creationists would cite the two new gaps between fossils as missing links. But there is a helluva lot of evidence for human/hominid evolution. Follow the link. <center><a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex3"><img src="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/hominids2.jpg" hspace="10" vspace="10"></a></center> That is not actually anything to do with evolution. For example, God could of made the matter, left the world alone and waited for life to evolve. Because we don't know where the matter came from we shouldn't assume that God did it. This is the "only game in town" fallacy. There IS another theory that involves quantum fluctuations resulting in virtual particles which jump into and out of existence very quickly. This idea suggests that the universe is one such particle. <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/vacuum.html"> Read about it here</a> Bizarre, but only because we are used to the everyday world and classical physics. One could also tackle the question from a philosophical, theological view, and point out that the premise "things have causes" entails that "God did it" is unsatisfactory because <i>He</i> doesn't have a source.
I figure there is some sort of universe encompassing being of power so great as to be near absolute. I do not believe such a being had no beginning. I thing it would have developed out of the functions of the universe itself. I do not think it is very concerned with individual humans though possibly with the whole species. We are the fibers on the paper on which the universe is written. One fiber in not important but if there were no fibers at all you would have nothing but dust.
Evolution is such a beautiful idea. And, unlike creationism, it can be tested. I understand that people find it confusing. Science is the brother of confusion afterall.
You have two mice. They have a litter of 10 pups (8 of whom are white, 2 black). A snake comes along that perfers to eat white mice. The black mice survive and produce a litter together. Evolution in a nutshell... or mouseshell, or something. Mice have shells? Freaky....
++++Mutations do not get passed on to offspring unless the mutation was in the germ cell True. Though perhaps if a cell mutated very early on(say blastula stage, for eg.) and then went on to form germ cells...++++ i am again too stupid to see why this is an argument against evolution...i hope creationists have better ones than this. the other guy responded quite nicely to your points so i am not going to go into those, but I am curious in how in earth you could ever think that this particular statement could be an argument against evolution. I don't want to annihilate you or something, but i just wonder, because to every person that has thought about evolution this would not cause any problem. Do creationists actually think about the merits of evolution or do they just accept the 'facts' as they are presented by some authority? oh yes...the mutation doesn't have to occur early of course...it may occur at any point in the lifetime of a germ cell...a sperm might get hit by a cosmic ray when it just about to reach the egg and it would still be ok. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Mutation. Mutation is such a ghastly term. It elicits images of post-armageddon undead and babies with two heads. It suggests there is some norm from which to compare. The truth is we are all mutants. Every living thing on this planet. If you have brothers and sisters you might want to ask why you don't all look the same. After all, you share the same genetic parents. In the wild 9 out of ten juveniles die before reaching adulthood. If they didn't then the Planet would get very crowded. Survival of the fittest serves two purposes. It maintains a strong gene pool by weeding out the weak. An inexact method but quite effective over long periods of time. Secondly it allows a species to adapt if environmental change threatens to wipe out a group. There are so many possible threats but a good example was the black and white mice. Another is mosquitoes subjected to aerial spraying. Only one 'mutant mozzie' need have natural immunity for the numbers to begin building up again. Many of the new generation having natural immunity to the toxin passed on. Humans are evolving partial immunity to atmospheric coalburning waste. Since the industrial revolution began, those humans with low tolerance for such pollution have died. Removing themselves from the gene pool. Humans with high tolerance have flourished. Selective breeding. We are also getting taller. Many reasons have been put forward but I think the main cause is rather simple. Females like taller men. Therefore this genetic feature is gradually being enhanced. Like a peacocks long plumage or a proboscis monkeys huge nose. Evolution is everywhere you look.
Ahh, well that was all very convincing, but tell me this: What good is all your reasoning and evidence if I can dismiss it all with a wave of my hand? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (Dripping with sarcasm, BTW) Clearly, anyone with any measure of ability to criticaly think about the world would be able to see WHY evolution DOES work, but then many religious nuts don't have the ability to see a logical structure that's right there in front of them (or in many cases being rammed right down their throats), unless it's written in their special book, or pre-aproved by their special authoritarian figures. Untill then they'll deny that the sun rises in the east, or that the sky is blue.
does this mean that creationists never read a book or science article... do they never think critically about anything? how can you go through life living like that...that must be real boring. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Faith vs Logic. They call it 'faith'. An all encompassing term which can be summed up easily with the 'Ape Experiment'. Start with a cage containing five apes. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, an ape will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the Banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the apes with cold water. After a while, another ape makes an attempt with the same result--all the apes are sprayed with cold water. Turn off the cold water. If, later, another ape tries to climb the stairs, the other apes will try to prevent it even though no water sprays them. Now, remove one ape from the cage and replace it with a new one. The New ape sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other apes attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted. Next, remove another of the original five apes and replace it with a New one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous Newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm. Again, replace a third original ape with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four apes that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest ape. After replacing the fourth and fifth original apes, all the apes which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no ape ever again approaches the stairs. Why not? "Because that's the way it's always been around here." Sound familiar? See you Apes later! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
cosmicdisturbance, that was a nice story about the apes. Do you not think that advances in nutrition have anything to do with humans getting taller? I'll agree that that could add to the effect, but i doubt any single event/ occurence or preference is soley responsible.
the case of the taller humans is probably due to nutrition, since it seems to occur only in specific countries (where there is better nutrition and healthcare etc.) women might like taller men, but also taller men should have more offspring, if an evolutionary change would occur. Do women just stay single if they can't find a tall guy? Do they only have reproductive sex with tall men, even if they have a relationship with a short guy? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Absolutely guys. Nutrition is generally accepted to be the reason but I don't think it's the only reason. Looking at the junk food consumed today and the diminished nutritional content of preserved or cold storage items in supermarkets it could be said our diets aren't all that improved. Roman legionaires were barely 4 feet tall and they ate quite hearty meals. Many factors influence height in all likelihood. Successful animal species do grow larger and this is generally attributable to a pecking order. Dominance. May the best man win and all that. The bigger stronger male stakes his claim and beats off challengers. In an environment free of predators that growth is not tempered by a need to be swift and flighty. For predators it is still tempered by a need to catch prey. We are neither predator or prey. Like an Elephant or Whale we have risen above that.
i agree on the nutrition being equal or less for our common food these days. When a person is sick they usually receive better nutrition and also medicine previosly not available. Timing is everything.
You know often only a part of a plant will mutate? Sometimes a single stem will sufferfrom some mutation. Flowers and cuttings from that part of the plant will carry the mutation but the rest wont.
I didn't know that. Are you referring to genetic mutation derived from the parent plants or caused by the environment? Makes me think of those Crab feet people. Since genetic mutation exists in every human being born and most genetic change is not an improvement, lack of selective breeding should lead to retrogression. Nobody's eyes are exactly like their parents. Brothers and sisters will all have slightly differently shaped eyeballs and rarely does the mutation hit upon the perfect shape by chance. In the wild this problem is addressed by weeding out the majority of less perfect individuals. With humans we get glasses. Thats just an example. Genetic variation of humans is now extraordinary but in every facet of our design we are weakening. Our closest relative is the Chimpanzee. It's muscular tissue has 6 times the strength of a man. A Chimp is easily capable of ripping a mans arm off if so inclined. In evolution, if you don't use it you lose it. Fertility rates around the World are also dropping. Mind and body are not separate entities. If the body goes downhill then the mind may suffer aswell.
Chimpanzees are amazingly strong! I've never heard about the crab-feet people. Care to expand on that? Also, if I remember correctly from high school biology, there are 6 different types of mutations? What kind of mutation would you classify the flowers of cauliflower?
I presume you can get both types of mutation. It only depends when it occurs. In the seed or in a bud. You can get an otherwise normal plant with all leaves on one branch free of chlorophyl, for example.
