View Full Version : Democracy doesn't work...
Democracy doesn't work if idiots vote randomly, or with out knowledge or theory. Remember when only white men got to vote? That was still democracy. How about only the smart get a vote? If you care about your vote meaning something you should hands down agree with me. Thoughts?
spidergoat
05-16-12, 03:23 PM
When you introduce hurdles to voting like testing or a poll tax, you also subvert democracy. I say democracy doesn't work when money controls the process.
Carcano
05-16-12, 03:52 PM
Democracy doesn't work if idiots vote randomly, or with out knowledge or theory. Remember when only white men got to vote? That was still democracy. How about only the smart get a vote? If you care about your vote meaning something you should hands down agree with me. Thoughts?
Not just ONLY WHITE MEN...but only white men 'of property'.
In England, not ALL adult males were eligible until the early 1900s.
I prefer a meritocracy as you describe...with voting rights earned by passing an aptitude test on constitutional law.
Buddha12
05-16-12, 04:13 PM
How about only the smart get a vote? If you care about your vote meaning something you should hands down agree with me.
Well I disagree with that statement because who will set the standards....only the "smart" people? That will lead into even more problems because everyone is affected by laws and legislation that is passed by those who are voted into office. I'd never want to return to the day when we only had about 15 percent of the population being able to vote for they only approve of themselves as the ones who should vote. Your idea was tried and only helped the few who were in charge for a brief time thankfully.
I prefer a meritocracy as you describe...with voting rights earned by passing an aptitude test on constitutional law.
Lmao. So memorize the current law before getting to vote? How about aptitude test in fellow man and morality?
Well I disagree with that statement because who will set the standards....only the "smart" people? That will lead into even more problems because everyone is affected by laws and legislation that is passed by those who are voted into office. I'd never want to return to the day when we only had about 15 percent of the population being able to vote for they only approve of themselves as the ones who should vote. Your idea was tried and only helped the few who were in charge for a brief time thankfully.
I set the standards. It was my idea. Lmao. Their dim vote effects everyone for the worst.
Asguard
05-16-12, 05:14 PM
The opening post misses the entire POINT of voting. You assume you vote to get the best goverment but your wrong, you vote to keep the worst OUT. If groups are eliminated from the right to vote then they become easy pickings for goverment exploitation because they can't BECOME politically active and vote against them based on the policies which effect them
Buddha12
05-16-12, 05:40 PM
I set the standards. It was my idea. Lmao. Their dim vote effects everyone for the worst.
Their vote is as good as your vote for they make up the society just as you do. Just because you maybe a part of the "elite" set of society doesn't negate your duty to also follow the will of the people for the people and by the people that make the entire society up.
DaveC426913
05-16-12, 07:12 PM
Democracy doesn't work if idiots vote randomly.
The voting system does assume that those who vote will do so conscientiously, but does not require it. If people want a system that governs them badly, they are welcome to vote that in. And that's still democracy.
Remember when only white men got to vote? That was still democracy.
No it wasn't. The simplest definition of democracy is that citizens get to vote. Non-whites (and women) were citizens, but did not get to vote. Open and shut.
How about only the smart get a vote? If you care about your vote meaning something you should hands down agree with me.
Who gets to decide who is smart and who is an idiot? I am in power and I (arbitrarily) decide you, Knowledge91, are in the idiot category. Now what do you think of your idea?
The opening post misses the entire POINT of voting. You assume you vote to get the best goverment but your wrong, you vote to keep the worst OUT. If groups are eliminated from the right to vote then they become easy pickings for goverment exploitation because they can't BECOME politically active and vote against them based on the policies which effect them
The point of voting is so we aren't dictated to. Why does a idiot deserve a vote? Its to worthy to give to someone who makes themselves worthless.
DaveC426913
05-17-12, 08:04 AM
The point of voting is so we aren't dictated to. Why does a idiot deserve a vote? Its to worthy to give to someone who makes themselves worthless.
There is a pivotal issue here, which you have not answered:
Who decides who is an idiot?
Answer this.
Balerion
05-17-12, 10:29 AM
We could appoint a Czar of Idiocy...
If it made any difference, you would not be allowed to vote. Only money talks.
spidergoat
05-17-12, 11:38 AM
Why does a idiot deserve a vote?
What if they want to vote for someone who will fund education and make sure they or their children will not be an idiot?
There is a pivotal issue here, which you have not answered:
Who decides who is an idiot?
Answer this.
Well my theory is im the only in the world with a vote, then I talk to people and if I believe they are worthy I award them a vote, and the ability to grant another a vote.
What if they want to vote for someone who will fund education and make sure they or their children will not be an idiot?
Then they clearly are not an idiot... :confused:
Democracy doesn't work...
Yep, and we have mods... :p
would anybody rather be in another political system ?
NO , despite its draw backs
spidergoat
05-17-12, 02:34 PM
Yes, I would rather be in a dictatorship... As long as I'm the dictator.
Carcano
05-17-12, 03:41 PM
So memorize the current law before getting to vote? How about aptitude test in fellow man and morality?
Its very difficult to test for morality...and even if you are morally perfect it doesnt mean you will make good decisions in the voting booth.
Being a saint doesnt mean you should automatically get a driver's license either.
DaveC426913
05-17-12, 05:46 PM
Well my theory is im the only in the world with a vote, then I talk to people and if I believe they are worthy I award them a vote, and the ability to grant another a vote.
That is called a dictatorship.
I'd hoped this was a genuine thread, looking to discuss. Never mind.
No its not. Its something yet to be invented. Discuss what, sir?
DaveC426913
05-20-12, 12:15 AM
No its not. Its something yet to be invented. Discuss what, sir?
This system depends on the choosing of the initial person who gets to decide who is worthy of voting and who is not (an "idiot", in your vernacular). How do you pick this person? What if you pick someone who is an idiot?
When asked, your answer to the initial person was you. As you say, your rules, you get to choose. Which means the discussion is of absolutely no use to anyone but yourself. There is no way of verifying that you are worthy* (not an "idiot"), so the system is as likely to fail as succeed.
* actually, there is, but that's another story
Actually, only to you, a internet poster who doesn't know me is it just as likely to fail as succeed, but I know better.
TAMallick
05-20-12, 01:03 PM
Democracy, Socialism, etc. nothing is 100% perfect. Main disadvantage of democracy is certain percentage of people view ignored. Those people may more intelligent or less that is not countable.
Democracy works better when those in power are not looking for , in the end , a dictatorship
which is what is happening , I think in the US
joepistole
05-20-12, 04:05 PM
The problem with democracy is corruption. History has informed us time and time again, corruption is the death knell of democracy. Corruption is managed in authoritarian regimes with fear. The problem with authoritarian regimes is competence. In these regimes loyalty is rewarded more than competence. Ultimately authoritarian regimes are brought down not by corruption but rather by incompetence.
DaveC426913
05-20-12, 04:21 PM
Actually, only to you, a internet poster who doesn't know me is it just as likely to fail as succeed, but I know better.
Actually, I know you well enough. That was what I was alluding to. Anyone who
1] categorizes a portion of the population as "idiots", and/or
2] doesn't realize how childishly naive "I know better than anyone" is,
is not fit for running anything.
Anyway, the whole thread is nothing more than a "let's talk about me" - so not interested.
The problem with democracy is corruption. History has informed us time and time again, corruption is the death knell of democracy. Corruption is managed in authoritarian regimes with fear. The problem with authoritarian regimes is competence. In these regimes loyalty is rewarded more than competence. Ultimately authoritarian regimes are brought down not by corruption but rather by incompetence.
agreed
now how do we make democracy work is the challenge
because democracy ALLOWS the individual to thrive
Actually, I know you well enough. That was what I was alluding to. Anyone who
1] categorizes a portion of the population as "idiots", and/or
2] doesn't realize how childishly naive "I know better than anyone" is,
is not fit for running anything.
Anyway, the whole thread is nothing more than a "let's talk about me" - so not interested.
1. You do not know me. At all.
2. A portion of our population is truly stupid, even maniacal.
What about a human standard we ALL agree to? Why not here on sciforums do we determine what one must exhibit to be trusted to vote?
steampunk
05-20-12, 10:16 PM
Just as much as you need a licence to drive, you should have to be tested on your knowledge for both sides of an issue you vote on. Based on your performance, you should have the number of points of influence, unless you cannot get 60% or more of the answer correct.
You should also be financially responsible for what you vote on or do not vote on. Imagine how the taxes would raise on those idiot Republicans for that unnecessary war! Imagine the turn out on voters when they will have to become more involved or have their taxes potentially raised or lowered at random! We could default them to pay every time for apathy.
I am for a responsibility based democratic technocracy.
Epictetus
05-20-12, 10:20 PM
Someone has to say it: the Winston Churchill quote: "Democracy is the worst form of government possible, except for all the others."
The past is a bunch a dead people that left you in a bind, because they were practicing what dead people in a bind told them to do.
Be Here Now, Or Be Square
I want to live in a Kingdom where the wealth and health of the people reflect directly onto the KING who definitely wants to look good. I will not have to vote as the King is looking after my health and wealth. With all his power and authority, He's doing a good job. This Kingdom is coming, says your Bible.
Epictetus
05-21-12, 12:45 AM
The past is a bunch a dead people that left you in a bind, because they were practicing what dead people in a bind told them to do.
Be Here Now, Or Be Square
Good one, Keith. Have you seen what is written under my name? It proves I agree with you. BTW, love your new avatar, that wide-grinned quaker you used to have kind of creeped me out.
wroberson
05-25-12, 09:27 PM
Right now, this is not a Democratic Government. It's Socialist. Everyday some new law goes into effect that takes away our rights. Some new Bill passes that takes our money from us and gives it to someone else.
Don't blame the voters either. They put up these people and it is our duty to vote. If if all the candidates are slags, then we get a slag in office.
Most of the time, I support the President whoever it is. Regan, Clinton, Bush, Obama.
I didn't support Bush 1. I voted for Ross Perot.
DaveC426913
05-25-12, 10:50 PM
1. You do not know me. At all.
But I do. You have shared some very relevant insights about yourself on this topic - enough to reveal your naivete.
But I do. You have shared some very relevant insights about yourself on this topic - enough to reveal your naivete.
When the middle east melts down, and another nuclear plant melts down, and China wises up and flexes their muscle. The Middle East is up for grabs. Its all about to pop off, how are you blind?
Right now, this is not a Democratic Government. It's Socialist. Everyday some new law goes into effect that takes away our rights. Some new Bill passes that takes our money from us and gives it to someone else.
Don't blame the voters either. They put up these people and it is our duty to vote. If if all the candidates are slags, then we get a slag in office.
Most of the time, I support the President whoever it is. Regan, Clinton, Bush, Obama.
I didn't support Bush 1. I voted for Ross Perot.
Do something about it
I want to live in a Kingdom where the wealth and health of the people reflect directly onto the KING who definitely wants to look good. I will not have to vote as the King is looking after my health and wealth. With all his power and authority, He's doing a good job. This Kingdom is coming, says your Bible.
The wealth, and health of the people will reflect directly from how well they follow the good kings orders.
DaveC426913
05-27-12, 08:13 PM
When the middle east melts down, and another nuclear plant melts down, and China wises up and flexes their muscle. The Middle East is up for grabs. Its all about to pop off, how are you blind?
And you got to this from "lots of people are idiots"? I guess if people just stopped being idiots, it would all be happy?
And, as leader, you know how to make everyone happy? How will you resolve the problems with, say, Israelis and Palestinians and make both sides happy? Who gets the land?
You can't solve the world's problems by pretending that the people who fight for their livelihood are just being idiots.
The world's been "about to pop off" since the dawn of time, and we've been a lot closer to it than this, just in my lifetime. We'll manage.
And you got to this from "lots of people are idiots"? I guess if people just stopped being idiots, it would all be happy?
Well no, but if there were no idiots things would be better, but there are those who apply all they know to their truly evil nature.
And, as leader, you know how to make everyone happy? How will you resolve the problems with, say, Israelis and Palestinians and make both sides happy? Who gets the land?
I am the self proclaimed holy prophet of God, I do. I get all land in fact.
You can't solve the world's problems by pretending that the people who fight for their livelihood are just being idiots.
What?
The world's been "about to pop off" since the dawn of time, and we've been a lot closer to it than this, just in my lifetime. We'll manage.
Thanks a lot, Dave C.
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