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superstring01
08-21-11, 12:01 AM
I stumbled upon this interesting article. Figured that, at the very least, Mr. Fraggle would find it interesting.

I sometimes regret that I have not learned this dead language. It seems to be important on a philosophical and logical basis (the understanding of it seems to open up understanding into so many other things . . . plus it's just good bragging rights).



Vivat Latinitas! (http://www.slate.com/id/2302020/pagenum/all/#p2)
My lively summer speaking a dead language.
By Ted Scheinman | Slate Magazine (www.slate.com)
Posted Sunday, Aug. 21, 2011, at 12:25 AM ET


http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123050/2279896/2300573/110819_CB_housmanEX.jpg (http://www.slate.com/id/2302020/pagenum/all/#p2)
A.E. Housman

At the beginning of the last century, A.E. Housman, that cantankerous giant of classical scholarship, was already complaining about "an age which is out of touch with Latinity." Around that time, philistines were excising classics from the popular curriculum, and the subsequent 100 years have hardly improved Latin's apparent relevance in Western society. Classicists may tout the fact that Advanced Placement enrollment in Latin doubled (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/nyregion/07latin.html) between 1997 and 2007, but this mini-surge brought the number of upper-level high school Latinists to a minuscule 8,654—literally 1 percent of the number of secondary school Latinists in the mid-1930s. (http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/2160/Latin-in-Schools-Teaching.html) Like its nouns, Latin continues to decline.

In the face of these grim prospects, I boarded a plane to Rome this summer to join the small network of scholars dedicated to preserving the language by actually speaking it. I found myself in the company of 16 other twentysomethings, puttering about the center of the ancient world chattering not in English or in Italian but —ecce!—in Latin.

I can assure you that the enterprise was even stranger than it sounds. The Paideia Institute's "Living Latin (http://paideia-institute.org/latin)" program is an immersive, spoken-Latin summer course based in Rome. The mornings are spent at the St. John's University campus reading poetry and prose and commenting on the texts in Latin; the afternoons are spent doing the same thing at various sites of literary or archaeological significance. If you vacationed in Italy this June, you might have seen us standing around the Ara Pacis on a scorcher, offering competing Latin orations on the pax Augustana. Other exercises were more modern: using hip-hop beats to memorize Alcaic meter, say.

The class comprised undergraduate and graduate scholars with advanced reading knowledge of Latin but little to no spoken experience; not even the Catholics among us had used the language of Cicero to comment on the vicissitudes of Vespa-dodging, or to describe the phenomenon of the "pimp coat" (tunica lenonis). The latinitas was often exhausting—try rendering a future-less-vivid conditional in proper tense and mood with 32 eyes boring into you and the carabinieri hollering obscenities just outside the window. Most humbling was the constant juggling of stressed and unstressed syllables; a language that had existed too long only on paper was coming fitfully to life, demanding as a newborn. Students, operating in good faith, even did their best to make dinner plans in Latin, though pizza sounds a lot less appetizing in its Latin form: placenta.

While Paideia's "Living Latin" is technically a new program, it derives from Aestiva Latinitas Romae ("summer Latinity in Rome"), an iconic course taught for over 20 years by Friar Reginald Foster. Described by the American Scholar as "a kind of one-man Audubon Society for the Latin language," Foster is known as "Reginaldus" to his students—or, rather, to his acolytes; something approaching a cult of personality has sprung up around the Friar. An American Carmelite monk, Reginaldus served for more than 40 years as the Vatican's secretary of briefs to princes. More simply, he was the Pope's chief of Latin letters, a role that found him translating papal bulls into Latin while overseeing the Vatican's Lexicon Recentis Latinitatis (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/latinitas/documents/rc_latinitas_20040601_lexicon_it.html), which offers helpful neologic Latin for such items as popcorn (maizae grana tosta) and pornography (pellicula cinematographica obscena). Reginaldus' eight-week summer Latin course, meanwhile, achieved legendary status among classicists, early modernists, archaeologists, and any number of other scholar-types. A decade ago, a high school Latin teacher described the course to me: "I learned Latin in school, but I did not know it until I met Reginaldus."

Foster has retired to his home state of Wisconsin. (He now runs an eight-week summer course there.) But it is still on the force of Foster's personality that the Paideia program in Rome fuels itself. Paideia's founders, Jason Pedicone and Eric Hewett, were Reginaldus protégés: When the Friar took ill in the summer of 2008, Pedicone and Hewett led the remaining month and a half of the Aestiva Latinitas course. The two are unswerving evangelists for spoken Latin, the type of guys who converse in Latin with precision and ease, though not with the same accent: Hewett, a devout Catholic who lives in Rome and moves in that city's arcane circle of ecclesiastical scholars, speaks the soft g's and hard v's of Medieval Latin, while Pedicone seems to prefer the reconstructed pronunciation of the Empire. (Both are finishing their dissertations, Pedicone on Latin meter at Princeton, and Hewett on Rabanus Maurus at the University of Salerno.)

In Latin, or the Empire of a Sign (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1859844022/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=slatmaga-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=1859844022), Françoise Waquet describes Renaissance classrooms in which Latin was the only permissible language, and schoolboy informants known as "foxes" (vulpes) would snitch on those who slipped into the vernacular. The regime at Paideia was not so unforgiving and, unlike various modern-language immersion programs, did not involve a "language pledge." Nonetheless, even while we spent hours each day on scansion, supines, past-tense contrafactual conditionals, and other staples of by-the-book Latin, the thrust of the course was the revivification of an oft-obituarized language. Such a thrust necessarily involves a fair bit of cheerleading, the result being that the class felt less like school and something more like summer camp.

We descended into the Sybil's cave at Cumae to reel off the pertinent hundred lines of Virgil. We drew stares in the Forum as we declaimed latine (adv.: "in Latin") on the various points of interest. (One elderly Italian gentleman, several sheets to the wind, stuck with us for some time, offering applause and exclamations of "bravi" whenever he thought appropriate.) We stooped into the Catacombs of Priscilla or the bowels of the Basilica San Clemente, where a troupe of friendly Bulgarians listened to our Latinisms on the subject of Saint Cyril. (Cyril invented and gave his name to the Slavic alphabet—Cyrillic—and his tomb remains a pilgrimage destination for Slavs.) On an unusually foggy Friday, we tramped to the peak of Mount Vesuvius and read Pliny Jr.'s letters to Tacitus recounting the volcano's eruption in 79 A.D. A curly-haired Italian high-schooler fell in with us; he offered a sensitive Italian translation and was far less bemused with our manner of speech than one might have imagined.

Frivolous stuff, the haters will say—a fantasy camp for bookish types, an arcane and indulgent pursuit (largely funded by university fellowships) that does nothing to tamp down the national debt or carbon emissions. I'm inclined to say, somnium ("nonsense"). Thanks to a summer of speaking Latin, I can tear through hexameters like Caesar through Gauls. The summer was perhaps not strictly "useful"; summer, after all, is characterized by otium ("leisure"), the lexical antithesis to negotium, or "business." (Graduate students are of course notorious for mixing the two.) Latin immersion offers other, similarly unquantifiable benefits. Knowing one's history is an intrinsic good, and in this sense, the summer's archaeological-literary one-two punch was anything but frivolous: As Nicholas Ostler says in his engaging biography of the language (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080271515X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=slatmaga-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=080271515X), "the history of Latin is the history of the development of western Europe."

Sadly, latter-day history teaches us that, despite our best efforts, Latin remains on the ropes, dying even among the clergy. "I'm not optimistic about Latin," Foster has said (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1540843/Popes-Latinist-pronounces-death-of-a-language.html). "The young priests and bishops are not studying it"—a Housman-like complaint that earned the Friar no points among those fellow clerics who had dozed off during Latin class. There is, at last, a comfort in these complaints: Each mini-generation of cantankerous purists will beget another, surmounting the stale calculus of Latin translation to speak it among themselves, in a conversation that has been going for a very long time.

~String

Pete
08-22-11, 09:46 AM
What is it with Latinophilia?

I'm all for delatinizing some aspects of the language. That can be a bit awkward when studying medicine... but it seems obvious that (for example) "low blood glucose" is clearer and no less correct than "hypoglycæmia".

It seems to me that if people are keen on preserving a language, they should work on those that are actually in danger of disappearing altogether.

GeoffP
08-22-11, 09:54 AM
Well, Latin is, kind of. The decline above would be rightly called a genocide if one were killing off ethnic speakers of the language. My brother studied it in high school...and admittedly hated it. But what an interesting world it would be with such an unusual and storied lingua franca.

Pete
08-22-11, 10:05 AM
Latin is in no danger of disappearing. I'm talking about languages that have little or no written form, and few living speakers.

GeoffP
08-22-11, 10:42 AM
Ah.

Fraggle Rocker
08-22-11, 12:27 PM
I sometimes regret that I have not learned this dead language. It seems to be important on a philosophical and logical basis (the understanding of it seems to open up understanding into so many other things . . . plus it's just good bragging rights).There are merits to learning any foreign language. Of course Latin is a good choice if you wish to read the original writings of Ovid and Cicero, but how many of us actually want to spend our time doing that? Most medieval and early modern scholarship was written in Latin, but Latin was not the native language of those scholars (or of anyone else in those eras) so to read those works in their "original" form is merely to read their own ideas translated into a foreign language.

As I have opined before, if you'd like to gain an intellectual advantage by learning a second language (rather than just "bragging rights" ;)), your best bet is to choose one that is not only unrelated to your native language but as dissimilar to it as possible. Since, for most of us, the vast majority of our important thoughts are formed in words, it stands to reason that the language we have available to think in is going to have a tremendous impact on what we think and how we think.

Chinese, for example, has no verb tenses: no present, past or future. Of course it's easy to toss in a word or two like "tomorrow" or "last year" if it's critical to understanding the sentence, but most of the time they get along just fine without them. It's no coincidence that this society also has the world's oldest continuous civilization, anchored by a Confucian world view that discourages change in favor of stability. Why bother putting in a time-word, when what you're saying has always been true and always will be? ;)
What is it with Latinophilia?Well, for starters it would help you more accurately determine the etymology of the words you use:
... but it seems obvious that (for example) "low blood glucose" is clearer and no less correct than "hypoglycæmia".Hypo- and glyc- are in fact Greek words, not Latin, for "under" and "sweet." The equally familiar Latin equivalents are cognates--the same Indo-European words with phonetic changes: sub- and dulc-.

The gluc- in "glucose" is the same Greek word, just a variant of glyc- via French.

Much of our new scientific and technical vocabulary is a mishmash of Latin and Greek roots, such as Greek tele- (distant) crammed onto Latin vision (sight), or Greek auto- (self) joined to Latin mobile (moving). You must love German, which goes to great lengths to avoid borrowing foreign words. They say Fernsehen and Kraftwagen
Latin is in no danger of disappearing. I'm talking about languages that have little or no written form, and few living speakers.I'm sure more languages have vanished than survived, as nations become larger and assimilate ethnic minorities. Linguists are in a race against time to catalog the remaining native languages of North America. Even tribes that have done a fair job of hanging onto their cultural identity and sense of community have, in all but a few exceptional cases like the Navajo, adopted English. The number of dedicated elders who take the trouble to keep the old tongues alive decreases with every generation.

Obviously the same thing happened thousands of years ago when the earliest civilizations spread, when there was no electronic recording technology to preserve them. Go back before the Bronze Age and the technology of writing hadn't even been invented yet!

GeoffP
08-22-11, 12:29 PM
You must love German, which goes to great lengths to avoid borrowing foreign words. They say Fernsehen and Kraftwagen

Stubborn little functionalists.

superstring01
08-22-11, 02:40 PM
Icelandic is even worse than German. It is, effectively, Old Norse with some shifted inflections. Eric the Red would be more surprised by the lesbian Prime Minister of Iceland than by the language she used.

~String

spidergoat
08-22-11, 02:52 PM
I do enjoy some latina immersion!

But seriously, my piano teacher who passed away in her 90's recently, used to teach herself latin. I used to see her miles from town walking along in plastic sandals while reading her latin book.

superstring01
08-22-11, 06:31 PM
I do enjoy some latina immersion!

Mmnmmm. Reminds me of that threesome in South Beach back in '97. That was some GOOD Latino immersion as well.

~String

spidergoat
08-22-11, 06:36 PM
You perv! :)

superstring01
08-22-11, 06:49 PM
You perv! :)

Actually, I'm not fond of any form of intimacy that involves more than myself and ONE other idividual (and sometimes the "just myself" version is perfectly fine). I've had varying combinations from one to five and have discovered that any more than two people is more of a distraction than anything else. Sure, sure, it looks good on paper (or in film, for that matter), but the engineering of such an escapade usually leaves me more frustrated than satisfied (except, that is, for that one spring night at "The Twist" in South Beach.

George Michael was right when, back in the late 80's, he said "Sex is best when it's one on one."

~String

spidergoat
08-22-11, 07:41 PM
Yeah, I can't watch porn featuring more than two people. Sorry to diverge from this scholarly topic.

Pete
08-22-11, 08:49 PM
As I have opined before, if you'd like to gain an intellectual advantage by learning a second language (rather than just "bragging rights" ;)), your best bet is to choose one that is not only unrelated to your native language but as dissimilar to it as possible. Since, for most of us, the vast majority of our important thoughts are formed in words, it stands to reason that the language we have available to think in is going to have a tremendous impact on what we think and how we think.
I have a suspicion that there would be merit in having all children learn sign language.


Well, for starters it would help you more accurately determine the etymology of the words you use:
I'm not convinced it makes any difference in practical communication whether a particular word comes from Latin or Greek.


You must love German, which goes to great lengths to avoid borrowing foreign words.
Not at all... what I love is effectiveness in communication; choosing words carefully so that your meaning is understood. At least, I love that ideal... it's hard to put in practice.

Borrowing words from other languages is fine. Using an obscure word as a professional shibboleth seems wasteful, or even bigoted.


I'm sure more languages have vanished than survived, as nations become larger and assimilate ethnic minorities. Linguists are in a race against time to catalog the remaining native languages of North America. Even tribes that have done a fair job of hanging onto their cultural identity and sense of community have, in all but a few exceptional cases like the Navajo, adopted English. The number of dedicated elders who take the trouble to keep the old tongues alive decreases with every generation.
I'm sure you're right.
I'm a white Australian with a pastoral heritage... and I'm not sure how to address the conflicts between the proud (anglo) "Aussie" traditions, and the shameful plowing-under of this land's pre-european heritage.

Obviously the same thing happened thousands of years ago when the earliest civilizations spread, when there was no electronic recording technology to preserve them. Go back before the Bronze Age and the technology of writing hadn't even been invented yet![/QUOTE]

GeoffP
08-22-11, 10:18 PM
Latin is in no danger of disappearing. I'm talking about languages that have little or no written form, and few living speakers.

I retract my overcredulous "Ah".

Latin isn't in much danger of loss compared to some native languages, but why must it be one or the other?

Varda
08-23-11, 04:42 PM
Eu acho que seria facil para mim aprender latim.

GeoffP
08-23-11, 07:47 PM
Those who will find it easier after all to learn Latin?

Fraggle Rocker
08-24-11, 02:02 PM
Eu acho que seria facil para mim aprender latim.Isto é verdade.

raydpratt
09-18-11, 05:37 PM
The Code of Hammurabi becomes the Code of Justinian (Codex Justinianus) becomes the Napoleonic Code (Code Napoléon) becomes the law of Louisiana in the United States and becomes big bits and pieces of law incorporated into law all over the world.

Latin is important in courtrooms all over the world to this very day: an ancient and basic legal precept quoted in Latin is hard to ignore. Lawyers use Latin legal phrases in specific ways, so they don't actually need to know Latin, but just think of how embarrassing it would be to use a Latin legal phrase in a grammatically incorrect way in front of a classically-educated jurist. Who would want to be that ill-educated dork?

I thought that I could learn Latin easily because of my study and use of Spanish, so I went to my favorite used bookstore and started perusing a few titles. I put them all back on the shelf and left.

I think that I got about as far as noun declensions before I decided that Latin is Spanish like English is Sanskrit: related like a crazy uncles overseas, but not terribly similar.

Some day, I should learn Latin -- as long as I remain interested in litigating -- but it's going to be an ugly adventure at best.

Pete
09-18-11, 07:29 PM
Latin is important in courtrooms all over the world to this very day: an ancient and basic legal precept quoted in Latin is hard to ignore.
Is it important for appearances, or for communication?
What does Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali mean that you can't say concisely in the vulgar tongue?


Lawyers use Latin legal phrases in specific ways, so they don't actually need to know Latin, but just think of how embarrassing it would be to use a Latin legal phrase in a grammatically incorrect way in front of a classically-educated jurist. Who would want to be that ill-educated dork?
I think I smells irony, but I'll play it straight anyway...

You want the jury to understand what you say, right?
So, shouldn't you be more concerned about the jurors who don't understand latin, rather than the one in a thousand who does?

Walter L. Wagner
09-18-11, 09:26 PM
Most legal work is behind the scenes, in writing, in the form of motions (pleadings) and responses thereto filed with the judge. The judge then decides which attorney's position is the more compelling. Being able to drop in a few choice Latin phrases from time to time is an indication of an erudite writer, and tends to sway a judge who might be otherwise undecided, since almost all judges have been extensively exposed to Latin phrases. Res ipsa loquitor.

Once it gets to trial, of course you'd no longer use Latin in front of the jurors.

Fraggle Rocker
09-19-11, 10:41 AM
I think that I got about as far as noun declensions before I decided that Latin is Spanish like English is Sanskrit. . . .No. Spanish is Latin like Hindi is Sanskrit, or like English is Old High German. The Indo-Iranian languages, along with the Balto-Slavic languages and a few other odds and ends, make up the Eastern branch of the Indo-European family. The Italic, Germanic, Celtic and Hellenic languages make up the Western branch. The separation of the branches goes back very roughly 3,500 years. Not all linguists agree with this categorization, and furthermore there are a few I-E languages that don't fit in either branch such as Albanian, Tocharian and Armenian.

English is in fact somewhat more closely related to Latin than to Sanskrit, although it is not a direct descendant of either. Your Spanish will certainly make Latin easier for you than for the average monolingual American.

German, one of our closest relatives, still has noun declensions, as do the modern Slavic languages. They were a hallmark of Proto-Indo-European.
. . . . related like a crazy uncles overseas, but not terribly similar.When you start investigating non-Indo-European languages you will start regarding Latin as a cherished relative with just a few interesting quirks. Chinese has no tense, no number, no gender, and no prepositions, adjectives or adverbs. (Traditional linguists disagree with me on the last three, but their paradigm simply makes the language seem unnecessarily bizarre and complicated.) Japanese does not have subject-verb-object syntax: theirs is topic-description.
Some day, I should learn Latin -- as long as I remain interested in litigating -- but it's going to be an ugly adventure at best.I'll wager that you'll just settle for understanding and correctly tossing out a large glossary of legal terms, rather than actually being able to construct a sentence and understand one constructed by someone else, qualifying you for daily life in Vatican City. ;)
Is it important for appearances, or for communication? You want the jury to understand what you say, right? So, shouldn't you be more concerned about the jurors who don't understand latin, rather than the one in a thousand who does?On top of that, there's no standard pronunciation. In the Vatican most people pronounce the words as if they were Italian, with soft C pronounced as CH, soft G as J, intervocalic S as Z, V as V, silent H, etc.

In the British Anglican hierarchy they more often butcher the vowels while at the same time hanging onto classical Latin consonants, such as pronouncing V as W, J as Y, and audible H. Americans combine a little bit of the Italian system with a little bit of the British system, but if you interview ten Americans who are fluent in Latin you'll probably hear at least three different systems.

Lawyers arguably treat it with the most disdain. A writ of certiorari would most likely be pronouned chair-tzi-o-rah-ree in the Vatican and sair-tyo-rare-ee in England. But American lawyers say sir-shuh-rare-ee. I don't think Ovid would understand legal Latin. He would have said care-tyo-rah-ree. :)

So no matter which phonetic paradigm you choose to learn, at least half the people you meet will think you're saying the words wrong--as well as all the people in ancient Rome, should you get a ride in a time machine.

raydpratt
09-21-11, 12:48 AM
There was a specific instance in one of my civil-rights actions where I wanted to change from singular to plural, or something like that, when using a Latin legal phrase. It bothered me that I did not know enough to be sure of myself.

Generally, there is no point in using Latin where English will do, but many legal doctrines or terms are still commonly stated in Latin: stare decisis, res ipsa loquiter, certiorari (sir-shee-oh-rar-ee), mandamus, habeas corpus, etc.

I would only use a Latin legal phrase or doctrine if the Latin term was commonly used. My intent in using a Latin legal phrase as a pro se litigator would be to impress upon the court and/or my adversary that I know the law and that the law is settled to the point of being ancient. I would support it with modern case or statutory citations, but the ancient support of a Latin legal term adds a color that might dissuade the court and adversary from being chummy good ol' boys against the non-attorney.

Admittedly, it doesn't work. Pro se litigants only win with good cases if they are in front of an honest judge or an honest panel of judges on appeal. I learned the hard way that winning an appeal won't make a dishonest court honest after the return trip. Still, the Latin can't hurt.

raydpratt
09-21-11, 01:21 AM
. . . res ipsa loquiter

Ooops: res ipsa loquitur, not loquiter.

AnWulf
10-31-11, 05:34 AM
I thought that I could learn Latin easily because of my study and use of Spanish, so I went to my favorite used bookstore and started perusing a few titles. I put them all back on the shelf and left.

I think that I got about as far as noun declensions before I decided that Latin is Spanish like English is Sanskrit: related like a crazy uncles overseas, but not terribly similar.

Some day, I should learn Latin -- as long as I remain interested in litigating -- but it's going to be an ugly adventure at best.

If you know Spanish, then try Interlingua ... basically, it is Latin without the declensions on hybrid English/Spanish (Romance Tongue) framework. It might help you ease into Latin if you really want to learn it.


What is it with Latinophilia?

I'm all for delatinizing some aspects of the language. That can be a bit awkward when studying medicine... but it seems obvious that (for example) "low blood glucose" is clearer and no less correct than "hypoglycæmia".

It seems to me that if people are keen on preserving a language, they should work on those that are actually in danger of disappearing altogether.

I with you! There are many Anglo-Germanic root words that can be brooked instead of Latinates. BTW ... I would say un-latinizing ... still a half-breed but at least its with an English forefast (prefix) instead of the Latin one.

If anyone wants to learn a "dead" tung ... I put forth that you should learn Anglo-Saxon (Old English). Learn the Anglo-Germanic roots of English rather than the French/Latin roots of the Norman overlords ...

AnWulf
10-31-11, 05:43 AM
Admittedly, it doesn't work. Pro se litigants only win with good cases if they are in front of an honest judge or an honest panel of judges on appeal. I learned the hard way that winning an appeal won't make a dishonest court honest after the return trip. Still, the Latin can't hurt.

True! I've been pro se as well. Always keep in mind that there are three levels of lawyers:
1. Those who can ... do.
2. Those who can't ... teach.
3. Those who can't teach ... judge.

Most judges (I won't call them a deemers, they aren't that good) come from the lower rung of the legal profession. A good judge judge (deemer) will appreciate that a pro se advocate has taken the time to learn the ropes and will give more leeway. The more typical moron-in-a-black-robe is upset that a lay person can learn and do what he couldn't!

Fraggle Rocker
10-31-11, 11:32 AM
I would say un-latinizing ... still a half-breed but at least its with an English forefast (prefix) instead of the Latin one.A "third-breed," actually. The suffix -ize was taken from Greek.
1. Those who can ... do.
2. Those who can't ... teach.
3. Those who can't teach ... judge.That's said about every profession, although the third line is usually rendered as "Those who can't teach... teach teachers.

But this is a slur against teachers by those who truly cannot teach, or at least don't have the temperament to put up with the milieu. I was a star as a programmer (wrote a mission-critical utility that ran around the clock for thirteen years and only crashed twice due to input formats that we couldn't possibly have anticipated in 1970), but I happily accepted the opportunity to teach programming because, unlike the stereotypical techie, I enjoy working with people more than with technology. I was good at that too, and since then have taught a wide variety of subjects and even done my share of course development.

People who would rather teach law than practice it have discovered a similar preference, although it usually takes many more years of experience to qualify for that position in their field than in mine, where most of what one learned five years ago is no longer correct.
Most judges (I won't call them a deemers, they aren't that good) come from the lower rung of the legal profession. A good judge judge (deemer) will appreciate that a pro se advocate has taken the time to learn the ropes and will give more leeway. The more typical moron-in-a-black-robe is upset that a lay person can learn and do what he couldn't!I suspect this is just as much an undeserved slur against judges as the original was against teachers. I've sat on a number of juries and in a number of courtrooms observing while waiting for my case to come up. There are morons in any profession and the judiciary is no exception, but in general I was quite satisfied by their skill, knowledge and attitude.

I don't see that the percentage of bad lawyers serving on the bench is any higher than the percentage of bad lawyers serving as counsel.

Now if you want to talk about Congressmen... ;)

AnWulf
10-31-11, 02:16 PM
It's an old saying that those who can ... do; those who can't ... teach. True, there are some who can do both and neither. I've had more than one college prof who admitted that they couldn't handle the corporate world and came back to academia where they felt comfortable. And that's ok. I've always thought that I would finish that Master of History and after I retire, I'd be the dirty old history prof at the local community college! lol

As for judges ... well, I've been in the ol' "doomhouse" more than I ever care to be as a juror, litigant, and as an observer. I've been involved in judicial elections, testifying before legislative committees for law reforms, and have given many talks on it. It's sad to say, but, in my experience, far more judges come from the bottom tier of the legal profession than the top tier. I've seen them make some bizarre rulings and think that the black robe make them a deity (indeed, one said that he was god in his courtroom!). For those deemers who are swinkful (diligent), I'm sorry that they get drug thru the mud along with their less competent peers but they do seem to be in the minority. ... And no amount of Latin will help poor judges ... in fact, I think they're intimidated by those who can throw the Latin out in a coherent way.

hotsexyangelprincess
10-31-11, 09:11 PM
Is this Athelwulf returned?

Dywyddyr
10-31-11, 09:16 PM
I thought that.
But then decided not.
If it is: welcome back Athelwunf, we missed you!