Dress codes in society

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by S.A.M., Nov 12, 2010.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Why do people follow the dress codes implicit in their society? Why do businessmen wear suits, soldiers wear uniforms. Why don't men wear gowns for formal do's? Lingerie to bed? Why don't women go topless on all the beaches where men do?

    Do you "dress up" to go out? Why? Whats the difference between how you dress for yourself and how you dress for others?

    What is the reason behind social pressure to conform to existing dress codes?

    Here is a video of young French women challenging the burka ban in France:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llVYGE-gUlQ&feature=player_embedded


    What do you think of it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
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  3. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    We are not our bodies; who we are is not defined by the bilogical sex of our bodies. Our bodies are as much a dress as the clothes that we wear.
    By being in a body of a particular sex, we get used to a number of practices that are socially characteristic for that sex. From how we refer to ourselves (using different pronouns and other language specifics for different sexes), to what we do with our little fingers when holding something, to how we dress.
    It is simply pragmatic to go along with those practices. Life is hard and confusing enough already.
     
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  5. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    S.A.M.
    When you go out into the world, either with family, co-workers, friends, or general society. . . do you care what others think of you?​

    If we had never met. . . and we agreed to meet somewhere for the first time to have tea and discuss world events, music, religion, culture, what have you, and I arrived wearing a lovely wedding dress, (I am a 1.88 meter tall guy), what would your FIRST impression be? :shrug: Would that distract or impact the conversation at all?

    I really don't think you need to ask these questions of others when the answers lay in your own heart. It is human nature to care what others think.

    In this instance, we have a clash of cultures. The minority culture doesn't give a shit what the dominant culture thinks, and really is making NO effort to assimilate into the greater society. The dominant culture is well aware of this. It reads the minority cultures websites, religious doctrines, and the desires to makes THEIR nation eventually a minority culture and at the same time CHANGING the culture to the minorities culture. And the minority culture isn't even hiding it's agenda. So are you surprised by this clash? I'm not. You have a free nation welcoming other nations and peoples into it, but then other nations having the agenda that someday they will subsume and take over the dominate culture, and they are open about this agenda. What do they expect?

    If you invited me into your house and gave me a room to live, would you expect me to live by the customs of your house, or would you expect me to live how ever I was used to living, and live by my own rules?

    If I lived by my own rules, you would probably be irritated and make new rules in order to either get me to leave or reinforce upon me the idea that the house was YOURS to begin with, yes?

    Is the law idiotic? Yes, it is idiotic. Are the immigrants to French society backwards, ungrateful, violent, disrespectful of the rich culture of their new chosen culture? Absolutely. If I were a French national, knowing the attitude of Islamic immigrants? I'm not sure I would hire or give them housing if there were any other choices available, since they have no desire to be French. And if I were a French law maker, I think I'd decriminalize that sort of private and public discrimination. If the agenda of immigrants is to destroy ones society using your own values against you, then you needn't do the honor of extending those gifts to said immigrants. You wear a burka, you want to practice your religious law over French law, then you are last in line to enjoy the benefits of French culture. But I think it's not necessary to officially put apartheid laws on the books. That makes the French look as backward and ignorant as the very culture they are attempting to stave off from enveloping and consuming the rich culture that has rooted in their land for millenniums.
     
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  7. Pinwheel Banned Banned

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    To impress the ladies....

    Though it doesn't do much good.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Since I am from India, I would probably think that you are either in fancy dress or a eunuch. Its not uncommon for hijras to wear "women's clothing" in India

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    When you say "your house" what does it mean? What makes this "your house"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  9. Pinwheel Banned Banned

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    I assume he means a load of bricks, mortar and wooden roof?
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure, which is why I asked. Europe used to have a landlord system and there are still many in the west who believe that property ownership puts them in a ruling class.

    Is that what a dominant culture is in a society? A ruling class? Does the ruling class decide the dress codes for the peasantry?
     
  11. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    They ought to, otherwise the peasants will go around buying clothes from factories and shops the ruling class don't own. Heresy!
     
  12. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    I think you are making it more difficult than it needs to be. I invite you as a guest, someone that needs a home.

    Why do I bother? You never really answered the first question. What is your reaction to a man in drag then? Is that pretty common where you come from than is it? Say one in ten, what, 10% of the men wear dresses, so interacting with men in dresses for you is no different than interacting with men in men's clothing? Come now, I think you are being combative and disingenuous. I feel like I am having a discussion with my eight year old son.

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    And I think you really are playing ignorant if you think this issue is about, what, dress code? Is that all you think this is about? Come on, really? This is about culture and respect. If women aren't allowed to wear a Burka, then they must break sharia law, yes? Then French law rules supreme. Of course. What it is about is the law. It is an effort of the state to show dominance over a religious edicts, to make a show of force.
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Well I am addressing social conformity here, so I am wondering if it also determines why you see immigrants as guests in your home rather than as human beings sharing the same planet with you. As for "drag" whats that? Are Scotsmen in drag because they wear skirts? Arabs in drag because they wear djellaba? Is a salwar kameez an unfeminine garment because it constitutes a pant and tunic?

    So what do you think?

    A little bit of info on how social conformity works:

     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I've worn Kimono's in Japan. Some were very elaborate too. I'd happily wear a Burka if that were the custom for men in a country I went to. I'd go nude if that were the custom - and have. I have walked around as nude as the day is long and not thought much about it as that was the norm there.

    When in someone else's house - I respect their rules, of their house. I expect the same in my house.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    What defines a house to you? What makes it a house? You live in Australia, do you live like the aborigines or like the immigrant westerners?

    Is this your current dress code?

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    --------------------------------

    One of the fallouts of the French burqa ban - it is now a criminal offence for a woman to wear a burqa in public in France - is the onset of Princess Hijab, an underground grafitti artist, who has coined the term hijabisation for her work. Presumably a French Muslim girl, she paints a black hijab on provocative French ads in the Paris underground.


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    Since her work barely survives an hour before officials rip it off, there are only a few samples available

    An interview with the artist:


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddes...hijab-graffiti-france-metro?picture=368558695

    But even before the ban, France already had its moment of burka rage, when a retired schoolteacher physically assaulted a young woman wearing her hijab and ripped it off

     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Funny story I read the other day. White guy moves with his family to Africa. He's out walking around with his Klanhood on. Get's his ass kicked. Funny that.

    Imagine if your religion taught you to walk around with a penis hat - and only a penis hat.

    Imagine some British come to India and start teaching people to think Fair is Lovely and then starting killing people for not teaching that bullshit. Oh wait, that shit happened!
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Here is a funnier one

    French soldier in Afghanistan covers his face and gets killed.

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  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Or, not even that:

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    Does an aboriginal costume constitute a penis hat? Do you go into penis hat rage when you see one? Or are you referring to koteka, which are penis hats worn by people in New Guinea?

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koteka

    I can just see you chasing them pore islanders and ripping off their offensive penis hats


    Imagine that - all those pearly white skins colonising other countries like er, Australia? The US? Such respect for that host culture, your casa is my casa and I mean MY CASA. hehe
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  19. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    No, never do unless it is a special occasion like wedding or funeral.


    Whats the difference between how you dress for yourself and how you dress for others?

    I've always dressed for myself but must use what I can buy in stores that I like to wear. Sometimes others wear things that I do because they probably enjoy wearing them like I do but sometimes they wear them because society is dressing like that as a whole.



    Because the society that is in control wants to keep in control and by allowing a certain type or style of dress they can enforce their will or power over others. It is just another way of keeping the sheep doing the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    The same reason they follow any other codes. Homo sapiens is a pack-social species and we reinforce the pack bond by sharing rituals.
    Most aspects of clothing have a practical origin, although in some cases they may go too far back to understand.
    Custom is a strong motivator in our species. In some societies it is considered "normal" for men to wear garments that don't cover each leg separately, but not in ours. Variety is the spice of life, and all that.
    Lingerie is, in essence, a courtship ritual. In most societies men and women do not perform the same ritual for reasons which are, ultimately, rooted in biology.
    You claim to be a biologist yet your ridiculous questions never cease to amaze me. See my previous remark about differences in courtship rituals being rooted in biology.
    That depends on where I'm going, but in some milieux part of the enjoyment of the experience is seeing everyone dressed up. I want to enjoy looking at the other people so I try to make sure they can enjoy looking at me.
    I'm not sure what "dressing for myself" means. When I'm at home with only my dogs I go around barely clothed in warm weather, and in cold weather the only criteria in my choice are warmth and comfort. If I'm with friends in a casual situation I wear one of my zillions of t-shirts with a design that will entertain them, such as a Grateful Dead truckin' teddy bear or Timmy And The Lords Of The Underworld from South Park. If I'm going to the ballet or the symphony, I tend to be old-school and I wear a dress shirt with a tie, although my dozens of ties are almost as zany as my t-shirts. One of my favorites has Betty Boop swinging on a crescent moon; another is a silhouette of a panther on a red background; a couple are Escher designs; many are just intricate geometric patterns. And BTW my socks are very similar; no two pair are remotely alike.
    Genetics and instinct. We want to express solidarity with the pack. We probably also want them to recognize us from a distance.

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    In the U.S., we use "house" as a synonym for "home." The best definition of the word "home" I've ever heard was said by a comedian: "It's the place that, when you go there, they have to let you in." Still, if several unrelated people live together, there's usually one who is in charge, collects the rent, pays the landlord or the mortgage, etc., and that is his house, even though the other people have the right to call it their home.

    In this context, for someone to invite you to "his house" is synonymous to "his home." Even if he's not the senior member of the household who pays the gardener and refinances the mortgage, he gets to tell you what the rules of behavior are--subject to being overruled by the senior of course.
    In a democracy we're not allowed to have a "ruling class."

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    We dumped that concept into Boston Harbor along with the tea. Sure, it doesn't quite work out that way in real life but we sure do our best to make it that way: Jon Stewart addressed the President of the United States as "dude"!

    There is no coherent entity in the United States that could be called the "dominant culture." Different groups have power in different facets of life. Sure, the politicians make the laws, but this is a more-or-less real democracy and we just got so angry at so many of them, and voted them out of office, that the majority in the House of Representatives switched to the other party. So much for that "ruling class"! Corporate moguls have a lot of power... oops I forgot, a bunch of them just dethroned themselves by their own bad decisions. Entertainers have a lot of influence, but our affection for them is very fickle--although we tend to hang onto our stars quite a bit longer than the seven weeks of fame that seems to be the norm in northwestern Europe. People in the news media exert a lot of influence... except for the fact that there is a pretty good balance between the liberal and conservative factions, e.g. Jon Stewart vs. Bill O'Reilly.

    I have often suggested that the USA is a pedocracry: Children have all the power. Ever since my not-quite-generation--the tiny cohort of War Babies who preceded the Baby Boomers by half a decade--made rock and roll the beat of America and the hula hoop its first utterly stoopid exercise fad, our cultural norms have been defined by people who are not adults. Now that I've said that, take a long hard look at modern clothing styles and maybe you'll see my point! How about TV shows? Food trends? Politics? The Sexual Revolution? Red Bull, a lethal dose of caffeine stirred into a lethal dose of alcohol? Would any truly responsible adult have invented the subprime mortgage? It's just a kid throwing a tantrum and screaming, "I don't care what happens tomorrow! I want my money right now!"
    That's just the pack-social instinct. We have gone a long way toward redefining ourselves as a herd-social species, living more-or-less in harmony and cooperation with anonymous strangers (something which I believe we should be proud of); yet we still have our pack boundaries. People from different packs first see each other at a distance, so naturally appearance is the first clue to pack identity. If you don't dress like our pack, you must belong to a different one. As I've said many times, 12,000 years along the road to civilization is only 600 generations for our species with its slow reproduction cycle, and that just isn't long enough for instincts to evolve. Deep down inside each one of us there is a caveman and every day is an exercise in keeping him tamed. Little things like someone dressing much differently--deliberately, knowing that attire is a rite of passage!--is all it takes to set him off.
    No, it's much more nuanced than that. To be "in drag" means for a man to present himself in the appearance of a woman--deliberately and obviously. Not just the type of garment but the style, cut, color, accessories, shoes, hairdo, cosmetics and even attitude. When I was a kid, jokes about Scotsmen and other foreigners "wearing dresses" were in circulation among the more uncouth sectors of society, but now that women wear pants to work--and may be your company's CEO--that sort of talk is pretty rare. The fraternity toga party may have been the formal end of that notion.

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  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Wearing a Klanhood may be a person's culture but it pisses people off who are not racist white Christians. That is reasonable. No amount of liberal whining is going to change that fact.

    Second, I have no problem wearing a penis cup in Papa New Guinea. If they make large

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    Yes, I understand that the USA and AU were colonized. SO was Egypt - by Muslims. There's no turning back the clock. If I go to Egypt I'm NOT going to wear the clothes people wore before they were colonized by Arab Muslims. I'll wear whatever garb the Arab men typically wear for clothing as that is cultural norm. It's certainly not my place to wear a New Guinean penis cup in Egypt now is it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Codes and sensed social obligations go far beyond clothing. Check out the story of this woman fighting against the ban on women driving in Saudi Arabia:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SuCKt12_8M

    A Saudi Princess might have been or be the first to do so, however:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB8vP3XW_oM&feature=related

    Typical. The persistence of the status quo ante is in many cases nothing more than societal laziness, bigotry or elitism. But it could extend into the inertia of a lazy legal system also: in Islamic countries, for instance - since the OP seems to have immediately used that as a touchstone for some reason - it's possible to be arrested for having the wrong clothing.
     
  23. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Because they are explicitly required to do so by their employers, under direct threat of punishment.

    Probably what you should ask is "why are businessmen required to wear suits, soldiers required to wear uniforms?"
     

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