Education Systems: Comparison & Analysis

[Mod Note: This thread has been edited to fit the new topic on comparing Education systems, education expectations, and pressures. I.E. Compare and contrast what your expectations and experience in education. ~String]

We have the same issues in India. Our undergraduate education is very good. I know kids who used to fail their classes in India and found it very easy to get good scores in the US either because of the scoring system [they get graded on a curve] or because the work is so much easier.

 

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While that may be true, in an average sense, it no more covers the reality than saying that you are a poverty stricken Hindu because you are from India where that is very much normal and the average.

Education systems in the USA differ from state to state, and pretty significantly from county to county and even from one city to the next.

It's one of the few things about Federalism that I hate.

While I'm perfectly fine with states controlling their education systems and setting their own standards, I detest the fact that one city has great schools and the city next to it has holes in its walls because of a lack of funding.

It's one of the few instances where centralization (to the state level) actually works. Funds should be divvied out on a "per pupil" basis by whatever state government there is, taxes from the state, standards, books and curricula all from the state.

It's insane that moving one mile down the street, my sister encountered a completely different system and set of standards.

Where I grew up, the standards were very strict. Though it was just a farm community, it was nonetheless a fairly wealthy (natural gas) community with decent schools (not great, but good).

One city to the east, the schools were the best in Ohio (at that time), with a teacher-to-student ratio of 1/10 that was known for strict standards and great parental involvement.

One city to the west, the schools were horrible. There was a collection of government and low income housing with constant violence and a high rate of drop outs.

Each school district--in Ohio and in most of the US--is controlled by its own board of education and superintendent who set the standards, pay the funds and run everything from the top down.

It's utterly idiotic and it's totally failing the American public. Which, I guess, accounts for the booming business of private schools (to which I went for a good number of my school years).

~String

 

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I have first hand experience of both education systems. We swot too much in India and have too high expectations of students both in terms of grades and achievements. Getting 90% is no guarantee of admission to the best universities. In the US, at the graduate level, people spell and compose sentences badly. Nowadays they print rather than write cursive.

 

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Nor is it here, SAM. Compare "best to best".

If we're talking average or below average, then yes, there are certainly a number of colleges and universities that will accept you. It happens in a country with enough school seats to educate half the world.

You've just indicated personal and cultural bias more than making a solid point. In India, computers in the classrooms aren't the norm, so writing quickly with pen and paper is still pretty common, so of course you think it's superior, in exactly the same way that everybody thinks their way is better. It's common psychology. In the USA where every classroom has a gazillion computers, students peck away at them instead of writing. Cursive falling out of use is not a sign of poor education, but a sign of the changing world we live in.

I've pointed out my industry like a million times so I won't go into it in detail again, but I don't remember the last time I've written anything other than a Post-It note. I don't even own ruled paper. I'm not even sure we have it in the office at work. We don't even accept official requests, two-week's notices or legal statements in hand-writing. If a manager or employee hands me a note and it's written out (which honestly, I can't remember the last time that's happened), we sit them down in front of the computer and make them type it, print it and sign it. First: It's easier to read. Second: It's officially considered "official" once its typed and signed. Anything else is shredder-fodder.

When we "walk" with our executives, we short-hand on the blackberry. When we are in the office in a meeting, we peck away at our notebooks. When we communicate, it's via email or--really rarely--typed on letter headed paper.

You can hold these things in contempt all you want, but there is practically zero reason for knowing how to write cursive anymore. In fact, in the businesses I know of and have worked with, writing in cursive is considered a faux pas as it's difficult to read (especially for those who scribble) and annoying to figure out. The rule is: print it by hand if it's short note or print it on the Xerox if it's longer.

~String

 

I don't "hold it in contempt" I was pointing out the differences between the two systems. Cursive requires more effort as a rule but it would take me ages to print what I write in cursive - I write and speak pretty fast - prolixity is a typical Indian characteristic. After the years in the US I am no longer surprised why students from India do so well over there. They have to think less and only need to be trained how to think more succintly and only to the direct point. In India we are trained to think expansively, from all points of view. In the US you can draw a flowchart and its sufficient as an exam response. In India, you'd write and explain the points at least over 12 pages. And it may still not be sufficient.

 

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i saw once a documentary, but cutted into parts, on faceook, saying that india is taking over the world in the minds, by it's minds, 25% of the most brilliant indians, are smarter, alot smarter, means, have IQ, more than the IQ of the hall u.s.a. i didnt actually watch the videos, but i will, but, what's the secret ?

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No secret, just very hard work. I am one of the few extremely rare exceptions in my school and university who actually went home and didn't do anything related to schoolwork except what was given as homework. Almost everyone I know went for "classes" after school and took tuitions even in subjects they were excellent at, to bring up their grades [it made a difference - I scored 10% less in my final year but I had a much more well rounded life so I consider it as no great loss]

Much of Indian schooling is the ability to memorise, retain and reproduce. Which is a sucky way to spend nearly 12 years of your life. The only thing good about it is the lack of emphasis on what is "proper". In the US, I found thinking in class to be extremely circumscribed - professors would ask you not to ask too many questions [first time it happened in my life] and would cut you off if you thought in some direction they did not agree with - the most constant refrain I heard was not to think so much!

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tunisia spent 22% of it's budget on education(in 2009), but still don't look too fancy as the western or americans ones, but, it'sall free, from primary school to univercity, intill you fnish studying, the problem in tunisia is, unemplyemet, most unemployed, are graduated from univercities, in all domains, maths technology computer sciences bilogy sciences, every everything, but they don't find where to work or express their talents, so tunisia export high cualificated people all the time, france, is boiling with tunisian students and tunisian professors and etc... boiling with tunisians, morrocan, maghrebians in general, but what makes this country and exellent place to invest in all domains, also scientific domains, and with aloot of potentials, nor the natural resources (wich we don't have much), and not tourism, but us, it have tons of high qualificated unemplyed people, but that unemplyement rate, will get smaller and smallr, by the upcoming mega projects, wich still on plan, and other under contruction, even after the financial crisis.
that's a link: http://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/publication.asp?country=20
our schools are not that much, or alot with equitements for chimistry and stuff, it have full equitement,s but, still not like the quality of western schools, but, doesnt matter how it look, eery day getting better and better, but it have all equitements, but what i see on tv on how your schools are, i can say ours are, well, clean, orgenized, nice, but, not like yours., anyway, it is good, and builded a high qualificated people, and maked success, tunisians usually don't find it very hard to study in france or other parts in europe, because we have a strong educational system, and effcorse everyone must do a good effort to sucess if he was in tunisia or europe, but, try to ask any tunisians, about howgood is tunisia in educational system, or what do you think of being developed in 2050 or 2040 or whatever, they'll laugh to death

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wich i will do too, but, facts, say the contrary, and all what i said, is true and nothing +.
well, anyway, univercity are fully equitetted or whatever the word is, means, have all all needs, and everything is 100/100, a full degree.
well, maybe you can say 75/100, again, you can't compare it to yours.

 

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that's very good.
well, hehehehe, professors here baagg us to ask aloot of question

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(not all effcorse, you can never say the word "all" )
doesnt matter how fancy is the school; what matters, is the education, and the hard work, as long as the school can provide the students essensial needs, and all needs to study, no need for too much fancy, but, first make the education in it very good and education in it is good, then start to add the lucury and fancy, but before that;, make it all free, even univercity, is it free in india? i mean education.

 

You included it with an ad hoc, and disparaging, analysis. One that was inaccurate of the whole and, typically, condescending of you. Why else include it? If you intended it to mean something deeper, I know you well enough that you wouldn't have failed to make the wider point. You're not exactly known for your taciturnity, SAM.

Ahhh. A nice bit of reverse-engineering!

Again, you're saying "in the US" and I'm saying, it depends on where you are. Maybe you should have gotten out more or gone to other schools.

While I agree with you that non-American students (amongst others; industrialists, entrepreneurs, inventors, etc.) are more driven than USAmericans (which is why I think the USA should be sending fleets of cruise ships over to India, Vietnam and China to bring whomever can fit, back to the USA to live, work and become citizens) I think you are leaving out two important factors:

• Indian cultural drive. It's just, Indians place an insane amount of pressure on their kids to perform better than anybody else. I have a million Indian moms working for me and their number one focus is on getting their kids the highest grades and into the best college (which is why Indians are disproportionately under-represented in athletics here: "School is for work, not for play!" As Farhat tells me. . . she's one strict mother). [While you may live in India, I live in North Olmsted, Ohio that has one of the largest Indian expat communities in Cleveland Metro. Your people are everywhere and, frankly, despite the fact that little Laksme can't keep her goddamned hands out of my shopping cart when I'm at Krogers (why do Indians do that? And I don't mean a few, I mean all of them. It's like a ritual. Really. It's kinda cute, but quite annoying, sort of like this rash generality I'm making), I think that there aren't enough Asians in the USA. White people aren't having babies and blacks and Hispanics seem to suffer from an inability to climb the ladder quickly enough. So it's up to Asians to bring some entrepreneurial spirit (and engineering degrees) to the US these days.] I think the pressure is, honestly, a bit much, but Indian kids obviously do well because of it.
• Poverty. People on the bottom have every incentive to move up. People at the top. . . well. . . don't.

~String

 

I had this discussion with an expat Indian [a family friend who has been in the US for the last 50 years] recently. I was debating him on the extent of pressure on Indian students and his opinion was that because Indian parents set [impossibly] high standards for their children - the children set [impossibly] high standards for themselves and even if they don't make it, they still make it farther than those who set lower standards for themselves or their children. Indians have a typically chalta hai [laissez faire] attitude to everything but education and employment. These two are non-negotiable

 

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aah, tu parle francais alors? qu'elles sont les autres langue tu parle?

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She speaks like sixteen.

~String

 

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who? and what's wrong with 16? i AM 16.

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Who said anything was wrong with it?

~String

 

Je parle un peu français, très peu. «Laissez faire» est utilisé en anglais pour désigner le même sens que "chalta hai", c'est à dire vivre et laisser vivre.

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what is "~String" ? i always wondered about.!

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A bad habit that I cannot let go of.

~String

 

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ah, maintenant je peut parler à toi en francais pour que quelqu'un ne comprend rien, tu comprend quand j'écrit en francais comme ca?: b1=bien, et, mntn=maintenant, etc etc...

ah je sais cette phrases

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"3ich w5alli la3bed t3ich" in tunisian arabic dilact.

 

In fact, when I type emails--especially at work--I have such a habit of pressing "enter" twice and typing "~String" that I have gotten replies from my boss, boss's boss, co-workers and customers that have said, "Um. . . . Dan. What' does '~String' mean and why does your email end with it?"

To which I reply, "Oh. Sorry. That's a type-o. Sometimes my fingers click into old computer language code from back before email was so intuitive."

A total bullshit lie, but I don't really feel like saying, "Oh, yeah, I hang out at this online forum that I help moderate [[:::snort while pushing up my horned-rimmed glasses with broken ridge:::]] and my handle is "superstring01" and I have this really, super-duper cool way of signing all my posts with that."

It all started when I used to belong to another forum, www.dreamersofdune.come (where I met, none other than CounteZero) and the owner, moderator, started calling me ~String, which I kinda liked. So, I started signing my posts (which, everybody at that website sorta did, so I did. . . ), and 8 years later, I'm still doing it, on every forum to which I belong.

~String

[niaga ti diD]