Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: I read this commentary on Austin's Atheist Blog: Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/05/10/did-jesus-really-suffer-enough.htm

I would like to know what your comments, feelings and opinions are.

[PieAreSquared]

Was he married ;)

[Doreen]

*************
M*W: I read this commentary on Austin's Atheist Blog: Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/05/10/did-jesus-really-suffer-enough.htm

I would like to know what your comments, feelings and opinions are.

I don't really like the glorification of suffering aspects of Christianity. However this article seems fairly silly to me. If we are granting Jesus was God, then we reallyl cannot say how much suffering God managed to infuse his crucifixion with. While many people were crucified - and certainly there are even worse deaths - it could have been magically enhanced and used by God/Jesus to ritually take on all our sins, etc.

Again: it is not a message I like, at all! - the suffering is good, we owe Jesus set of ideas. But when non-religious people attempt to be logical and rational about religion I find the ideas fairly irrational, as I did with that essay.

[Michael]

was he married ;)lol :d

[Skeptical]

Just to interpose a little fact here ( I do apologise!).

Crucifixion was actually worse than the churches normally illustrate. You look at an image in a church of Jesus being crucified and you see hands tied to the cross piece and feet on a foot rest with a nail through each. What a wimpish crucifixion!

In fact, the reality of Roman crucifixion has been outlined by archaeologists who have analysed skeletons of people who were crucified. The nails went through the wrists, not palms of hands, and worse - the feet were nailed to the sides of the upright. No foot rest. No nails through the feet. The nails were through the leg, just above the ankle, nailing them to the side of the cross.

The whole thing must have been utterly excruciating!

[Lori_7]

I know crucifixion is gory and all, but I would imagine the alienation and psychological weight of the burden he carried throughout his life was more torturous.

[sandy]

He suffered more than he should have. Man has proven to not have appreciated all the suffering/dying Jesus did for our sins. Man is mostly ungrateful.

[GeoffP]

Was he married ;)

Well, he wasn't married to M-W, so I'd say there was certainly more room for suffering on his part, just or otherwise.

[Captain Kremmen]

Whose sacrifice was it?
If you sacrifice a lamb, the sacrifice is your's not the lamb's.

Surely, the crucifixion was God the father's sacrifice of his son, not Jesus's sacrifice of himself.

The pain of Jesus would have made the sacrifice worse for his father.

[PieAreSquared]

Well, he wasn't married to M-W, so I'd say there was certainly more room for suffering on his part, just or otherwise.

I was thinking of someone else .....any guesses ;)

[Axiomatic]

It's not really a sacrifice if you take it back afterwards, is it? I mean, that's like calling it a sacrifice if I toss all my money into a beggar's hat, wait a few minutes and then reach in and take all my money back again.

Remember, the dude came back. And he knew he would.

[Medicine*Woman]

Was he married ;)
*************
M*W: Then perhaps he did suffer enough.

[brennus]

Jesus was Crucified by the Romans? For what?

[Skeptical]

For careless talk.

[Hapsburg]

Jesus was Crucified by the Romans? For what?
Officially, treason, inciting of sedition, and disrupting the peace. Unofficially, making trouble for local religious authorities in Judea, which could cause problems for local and provincial government.


In fact, the reality of Roman crucifixion has been outlined by archaeologists who have analysed skeletons of people who were crucified. The nails went through the wrists, not palms of hands, and worse - the feet were nailed to the sides of the upright. No foot rest. No nails through the feet. The nails were through the leg, just above the ankle, nailing them to the side of the cross.
The whole thing must have been utterly excruciating!

Well, there were different methods. The one you described was probably the most common. Another popular option was to tie the condemned criminal to the cross with rope and leave him there to die from exposure and dehydration.
The Romans were pretty much adept at all kinds of ways to kill people. That's why they eked out a massive empire. Humans are a proud warrior race, and the best warriors among them are able the do the most.

[Dywyddyr]

AFAIK nailing people to a cross was reserved for the worst offenders. ISTR from my history lessons that being tied was more common.
I also vaguely remember something about the actual "stance" of the crucifixee - they were positioned so they could either "stand" (use the leg muscles to take pressure off their arms and thereby relieve weight on the arms, and effects on the chest, and therefore breathe more or less normally) but the legs couldn't extend fully and tired quickly or hang by their arms and accept a slow "strangulation" due to the lungs being compressed by tension on the chest muscles.

Oh, edit: Also, AFAIK, nails were always through the wrist, between the two bones in the forearm. If a nail was through the palm the victim would end up face down in short order as the skin between the fingers parted under his own weight.

[Medicine*Woman]

Jesus was Crucified by the Romans? For what?
*************
M*W: You're just figuring this out now?

[Light Travelling]

I know this suffering if a common belief the church has come to but, does it actually say in the Bible that Jesus suffered for the sins of the world?

I am not so sure it does say exactly that. It may say he dies for the world sins, but not suffered.

Does anyone have a passage that confirms or refutes this?

[NMSquirrel]

interesting reading. (http://www.gospel.com/search?q=jesus+died+for+our+sins&x=0&y=0&bgsearch=no).

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures . . . (NASB) 1 Cor. 15:3-4

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit . . . (NASB) 1 Peter 3:18



. . . but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB) Hebrews 10:12-14

(so it says his enemies will be in heaven?)

taken from this source (http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read1/r00454.html)

[Light Travelling]

. . but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB) Hebrews 10:12-14

(so it says his enemies will be in heaven?)

I guess so, so where does that leave hell?? Or are these enemies that have been forgiven?


. taken from this source (http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read1/r00454.html)

The key theme in your source seems to be dying rather than suffering, maybe he didn’t need to suffer at all, just die (after all you cant be resurrected unless you die first), maybe the suffering was incidental.

The below excerpt is taken form your source;

“In order to rescue us from the penalty of our sin, a sinless individual had to die for us. Someone who did not deserve to physically die had to choose to die for us. Jesus did that for us.”

[Shadow1]

oh, so you want the jews to make some one pertend to be jesus, and torture him and put him on a cross?
or go back in time and tell them to torture him more, and keep torturing him while he's dead?
hmm
who knows, maybe the tooth fery will come and make that wish come true, on a one condition, every one must give a tooth on the same night.

[Light Travelling]

Well if Jesus didn’t suffer enough, subsequent Christians certainly did;

“Therefore, Maturus, Sanctus, Blandina, and Attalus were publicly exposed to the wild beasts. To give the heathen public a spectacle of cruelty, a day for fighting wild beasts was appointed on account of our people. Both Maturus and Sanctus again endured every form of torture in the amphitheater, as if they had no suffering at all before. Or rather, like athletes who had overthrown their enemy several times and were now contending for the crown itself. Again they endured the usual lashes. They were dragged about by the wild beasts and suffered every indignity which the maddened people cried out for from around the amphitheater. Last of all they were placed in the iron chair, on which their bodies were roasted. They themselves were filled with the fumes of their own flesh. But the heathen did not stop even here, but became still more frantic in their desire to overcome the endurance of the Christians. But still they did not hear anything else from Sanctus except the confession which he had made from the beginning. These, then, after life had lasted a long time throughout the great contest, were at last sacrificed. Instead of all the variety which usually takes place in gladiatorial shows, they alone were the spectacle to the world throughout that day.”

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/177-lyonsmartyrs.html

[cluelusshusbund]

I thank the amount of sufferin is irrelevent... the magic-spell (which was to insure that everbody woud go to heaven) was based on Jesus dyin... an sinse he only stayed dead for 3 days (prolly got bored)... well... thats why hell will be filled to the rim wit siners.!!!

[Doreen]

I thank the amount of sufferin is irrelevent... the magic-spell (which was to insure that everbody woud go to heaven) was based on Jesus dyin... an sinse he only stayed dead for 3 days (prolly got bored)... well... thats why hell will be filled to the rim wit siners.!!!No, it had to be a lot of suffering. Otherwise why feel guilty? Why knuckle under? What's the debt to someone who returned to eternal bliss by dying?

[cluelusshusbund]

No, it had to be a lot of suffering. Otherwise why feel guilty? Why knuckle under? What's the debt to someone who returned to eternal bliss by dying?

O... i see... then Jesus didnt suffer near enuff cause acordin to the holey-bible mos everbody is goin to hell.!!!

But aparently thats what God wants :shrug:

[Skeptical]

All of which came from an earlier stone age culture that had the superstition that the gods could be put into a good mood by giving them the smell of burning meat. Weird!

[Doreen]

O... i see... then Jesus didnt suffer near enuff cause acordin to the holey-bible mos everbody is goin to hell.!!!Oh, no. Jesus upheld his end. He suffered enough so that they had a chance to get into Heaven despite Original Sin - talk about blaming the children for the sins of the father. But these ungratefuls were not swayed by this suffering.


But aparently thats what God wants :shrug:No, God wants them to choose correctly. That is what hell is, a deterrent. He is doing everything he can, short of turning us into robots - he leaves that to earthly forces like the media and politicians.

[cluelusshusbund]

Oh, no. Jesus upheld his end. He suffered enough so that they had a chance to get into Heaven despite Original Sin - talk about blaming the children for the sins of the father. But these ungratefuls were not swayed by this suffering.

No, God wants them to choose correctly. That is what hell is, a deterrent. He is doing everything he can, short of turning us into robots - he leaves that to earthly forces like the media and politicians.

Souns complicated... but luckly for me im a manber in good standin of the NACA :worship: so im guranteed not to go to hell.!!!

[birch]

Whose sacrifice was it?
If you sacrifice a lamb, the sacrifice is your's not the lamb's.

Surely, the crucifixion was God the father's sacrifice of his son, not Jesus's sacrifice of himself.

The pain of Jesus would have made the sacrifice worse for his father.

that is like saying, if i set you on fire for my ritual, it's me who suffered more. if i use your credit card to pay my bills, my own bank account suffers. please.

if you sacrifice yourself, then that would apply.


I read this commentary on Austin's Atheist Blog: Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/05/1...fer-enough.htm

I would like to know what your comments, feelings and opinions are.

if the story of jesus is true, then he definitely suffered.

but what i've heard christians say is that jesus suffered more than anyone else citing the physical pain of the crucifixion alone. that is preposterous and even strange since others were crucified too. besides, there are many torturous ways to suffer and anything to do with burning is the most torturous and horrific of all. as a matter of fact, i don't think there is any justification to do that to anyone short of someone evil enough to inflict that on another. it's just so heinous and evil. there are people who have been burned and survived who tell of wishing someone would have killed them as the pain was that terrible.

i find christians mentality very strange and unrealistic which indicates to me on some level, they do not have real empathy.

[Bert]

i think he did

[Doreen]

Souns complicated... but luckly for me im a manber in good standin of the NACA :worship: so im guranteed not to go to hell.!!!
National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics?
Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America?
Network of Aquaculture Centres in Asia-Pacific?
National Agency for the Control of AIDS?

hey, I'm not making these up, but googling is not, I think, bringing me closer to the organization of your salvation.

[cluelusshusbund]

National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics?
Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America?
Network of Aquaculture Centres in Asia-Pacific?
National Agency for the Control of AIDS?

hey, I'm not making these up, but googling is not, I think, bringing me closer to the organization of your salvation.

Hmmm... thats odd... its a rapidly growin religion... why... jus las year manbership doubled an yet you ant herd of it :confused:

Anyhow... "NACA" is New Age Christan Atheist.!!!

[Doreen]

Hmmm... thats odd... its a rapidly growin religion... why... jus las year manbership doubled an yet you ant herd of it :confused:

Anyhow... "NACA" is New Age Christan Atheist.!!!So your positive thinking focuses on the fact that you will be saved by something that does not exist while the wind chimes chime and you smile a brittle smile. It should catch on.

[cluelusshusbund]

So your positive thinking focuses on the fact that you will be saved by something that does not exist while the wind chimes chime and you smile a brittle smile. It should catch on.

Everbody is welcom... jus let me know.!!!

You dont have to go to church.!!!

Ther are no Tythes to pay.!!!

I personaly gurantee that you wont go to hell.!!!


A-Man.TTT

[Doreen]

Everbody is welcom... jus let me know.!!!
Like, really, if you think about it, I mean really feel it........
who isn't already a member, deep down. The oneness.

[Skeptical]

NACA membership doubled?

You mean there are two of you now?

[Cat_with_no_eyes]

I think we all suffered enough!

[cluelusshusbund]

NACA membership doubled?

You mean there are two of you now?

4... but prolly 5 perty soon cause i thank Doreen is about to join :thumbsup:

[Light Travelling]

:wtf:

[Lori_7]

i think this is a good time for a relevant music break...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5unRdy3mNY0

[Light Travelling]

i think this is a good time for a relevant music break...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5unRdy3mNY0

Lori,

Thanks for the break. What do you think is most important; the death and resurrection of Christ, or the suffering of Christ. in other words do you think he needed to suffer to fulfil his mission or was it enough just to die?

[Lori_7]

Lori,

Thanks for the break. What do you think is most important; the death and resurrection of Christ, or the suffering of Christ. in other words do you think he needed to suffer to fulfil his mission or was it enough just to die?

i actually think it's a bit more involved than that. i think his whole life was a sacrifice, but when people refer to the blood of christ healing, redeeming, restoring, i think they're interpreting it incompletely if not incorrectly. perhaps the blood that was spilled on the ground meant something, but many, many people have been crucified. i think it's the blood that wasn't spilled that saves us, or the purity of it.

i think sin is genetic. it resides in our flesh. we're born into it. jesus was the only one born without it, and when our bodies are made sinless like his, or perhaps even, when his blood is pumping through our veins, we will be made perfect like him.

[Light Travelling]

i think sin is genetic. it resides in our flesh. we're born into it. jesus was the only one born without it, and when our bodies are made sinless like his, or perhaps even, when his blood is pumping through our veins, we will be made perfect like him.

Do you not think it is in spirit that that people will be made like Christ, rather than in the flesh?

[Lori_7]

Do you not think it is in spirit that that people will be made like Christ, rather than in the flesh?

i think it's about the flesh. i mean, don't get me wrong, i've learned a lot from the spirit, but that hasn't made me perfect by a long shot.

the communion ceremony is a ritual that represents a time when our bodies will be made like christ's body...sinless. and communion will be restored with god and our flesh will be made eternal.

think about that ceremony...we're ingesting his body, and his blood, into ours.

think about the holy grail. it's a vessel right? filled with the blood of christ. what are our bodies? vessels...filled with blood. and what is the body of christ? it's the church.

[Light Travelling]

i think it's about the flesh. i mean, don't get me wrong, i've learned a lot from the spirit, but that hasn't made me perfect by a long shot.

the communion ceremony is a ritual that represents a time when our bodies will be made like christ's body...sinless. and communion will be restored with god and our flesh will be made eternal.

think about that ceremony...we're ingesting his body, and his blood, into ours.

think about the holy grail. it's a vessel right? filled with the blood of christ. what are our bodies? vessels...filled with blood. and what is the body of christ? it's the church.


But the bible seems to indicate that we would become Christ like in spirit, I mean after death. We can attain christ after death; ascension.
Look at Matt 22:30 “ For when the dead rise to life, they will be like the angels in heaven”.

[Lori_7]

But the bible seems to indicate that we would become Christ like in spirit, I mean after death. We can attain christ after death; ascension.
Look at Matt 22:30 “ For when the dead rise to life, they will be like the angels in heaven”.

if i understand that scripture correctly, it is in regards to marrying each other and having sex (procreating).

in regards to spirits, we are already eternal spirits. god says he knew us before he formed us in the womb. if we just go back to being our spiritual selves, then there doesn't seem to be a point to creating our flesh in the first place. and no purpose for christ. sin doesn't reside in our spirit, only in our flesh.

when jesus was resurrected, he had a physical body, it was just different. when he exited the tomb, if i'm not mistaken, he told mary m. not to touch him, and he traveled and met with his disciples. did they share a meal perhaps?

in revelations, it also says something that i find very intriguing. it says that those days will be cut short to save the flesh of the elect. i wonder about these people.

[Light Travelling]

if i understand that scripture correctly, it is in regards to marrying each other and having sex (procreating).

Nothing about sex, it does mention marriage, but the key is that men will be like angels i.e. spiritual; not physical.


in regards to spirits, we are already eternal spirits. god says he knew us before he formed us in the womb. if we just go back to being our spiritual selves, then there doesn't seem to be a point to creating our flesh in the first place. and no purpose for christ. sin doesn't reside in our spirit, only in our flesh.

If we go back to Genesis the sin was Adam’s. We were eternal spirits, then thrown out of the garden of Eden (the spiritual realm) and cast down to toil the earth and live physical lives. Christ being the path to the way back, that is the purpose of Christ. Forgiveness for the original sin; which was separation from god.


when jesus was resurrected, he had a physical body, it was just different. when he exited the tomb, if i'm not mistaken, he told mary m. not to touch him, and he traveled and met with his disciples. did they share a meal perhaps?
in revelations, it also says something that i find very intriguing. it says that those days will be cut short to save the flesh of the elect. i wonder about these people.

God is spirit, man is spirit. Religious teaching is called ‘spiritual teaching’ for that very reason. Try these passages;

John 4:24 “ God is spirit”
Gen 1:27 “god created human beings, making them to be like himself”.
John 10:34 “ you are gods”
PS 825:6 “ you are gods”

Man therefore is of the same substance as god , both are spiritual beings. The purpose of man would be to become as god. Christ (and others ) show the way.

[Lori_7]

i'm sorry but, i don't agree with your viewpoint at all.

man was created along with the earth, plants, animals, and was made of the earth. man walked in the garden with god, until they were genetically manipulated (sin) to know evil. the purpose of christ is to bring us genetically, back to our original state (biologically), only now, knowing of good and evil, because of our opportunity to experience it.

[Lori_7]

this is after the resurrection in matthew 24...

Jesus Appears to His Disciples

36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, [2] 43 and he took it and ate before them.

[cluelusshusbund]

"Christ being the path to the way back, that is the purpose of Christ. "

"What do you think is most important; the death and resurrection of Christ, or the suffering of Christ. in other words do you think he needed to suffer to fulfil his mission or was it enough just to die?"


If Christs mission/purpos was to insure that hell woud be filled to the rim... then i say the amount of sufferin he received an the resurrection was spot on... no.???



<Lori to Litht Travelling>
...i don't agree with your viewpoint at all.


Ether you or LT is rong... but no prollem... Gods plan includes a place for people who dont corectly figer out the puzzle of makein it to heaven... an heres anuther puzzler... its a hot place... begins wit "H" an has 4 letters... eh.!!!

[NMSquirrel]

Gods plan includes a place for people who dont corectly figer out the puzzle of makein it to heaven.

hey clueless..long time no read..lol..

i believe there are ppl on this earth that do not believe in god (they don't not believe either) that are qualified to enter heaven..i think it has to do with the way you treat other ppl..you don't have to know all the rules to treat others respectfully..your heart just has to be in the right place..

[cluelusshusbund]

hey clueless..long time no read..lol..


Yeah sam here... i guess our ships have pased in the nite.???



i believe there are ppl on this earth that do not believe in god (they don't not believe either) that are qualified to enter heaven..i think it has to do with the way you treat other ppl..you don't have to know all the rules to treat others respectfully..your heart just has to be in the right place..

Well for myself... i have no idea if ther realy is a God or Gods... but if a "God" did create life the way it is... "its" a monster-God... so for me... the idea of "livin" forever ant a very sweet deal if it involves spendin eternity wit a sadistic mass murderer.!!!

[Skeptical]

I agree with clueluss.

This thread has gone astray. This is a science forum, and it is not an appropriate place for the religious and superstitious to discuss the details of their favourite superstition.

[Lori_7]

I agree with clueluss.

This thread has gone astray. This is a science forum, and it is not an appropriate place for the religious and superstitious to discuss the details of their favourite superstition.

astray from what? the name of this thread is "did jesus suffer enough"?

[NMSquirrel]

I agree with clueluss.
what if you are wrong about who/what god is?

This thread has gone astray. This is a science forum, and it is not an appropriate place for the religious and superstitious to discuss the details of their favourite superstition.

the religious forum is not the proper place for religious disscusions??????

[cluelusshusbund]

...what if you are wrong about who/what god is?


I woud have to have beleifs that "God" esists to be rong about who or what God is.!!!

[cluelusshusbund]

i believe there are ppl on this earth that do not believe in god (they don't not believe either) that are qualified to enter heaven..i think it has to do with the way you treat other ppl..you don't have to know all the rules to treat others respectfully..your heart just has to be in the right place..

Why are som peoples harts not in the rite place... an what is Gods plan for 'em.???

[Skeptical]

I entered this thread some time ago because I had some information I thought was of interest. However, I involve myself in this science forum because I love science. Religion is not science. Some aspects of religion can be discussed scientifically, and that is appropriate for this part of the forum.

However, I find myself somewhat bemused when the discussion in a science forum goes into pure superstition. Science and superstition are opposites, and pushing superstition is definitely inappropriate here.

I might get into a thread on astrology, and discuss the scientific testing of astrology. That would be of real interest. But if I started telling everyone to believe astrology in spite of the vast scientific literature that demonstrates it is invalid, I would be off the rails. Ditto for religion.

[Lori_7]

"mythology, comparison of religious tradition, history of world religions"

you want to discuss the scientific testing of mythology, tradition, and history? go for it.

[Lori_7]

Ether you or LT is rong... but no prollem... Gods plan includes a place for people who dont corectly figer out the puzzle of makein it to heaven... an heres anuther puzzler... its a hot place... begins wit "H" an has 4 letters... eh.!!!

i think it's ironic that the only people on this forum i ever hear this "you're going to hell" crap from are atheists.

[Yosef]

i think it's ironic that the only people on this forum i ever hear this "you're going to hell" crap from are atheists.

You might hear that from some Muslims too but this is because they have faulty understanding of their own religion and/or because they see many westerns behaving in manners that contradict the word of God. Everyone who believes in God and in that which has been revealed by God are going to enter paradise.


"(15) SAY: Is this, or the Paradise of Eternity which was promised to the God-fearing, best? Their recompense shall it be and their retreat; (16) Abiding therein for ever, they shall have in it all that they desire! It is a promise to be claimed of thy Lord." Holy Quran - The Criterion - 25:15-16

"Among the people of the Book are those who believe in God, and in what He hath sent down to you, and in what He hath sent down to them, humbling themselves before God. They barter not the signs of God for a mean price. These shall have their reward with their Lord; verily God is swift in account." Holy Quran - Family of Imran - 3:199

Talking about Jesus peace upon Him:


"(29) And she made a sign to them, pointing towards the babe. They said, "How shall we speak with him who is in the cradle, an infant? (30) It said, "Verily, I am the servant of God; He hath given me the Book, and He hath made me a prophet; (31) And He hath made me blessed wherever I may be, and hath enjoined me prayer and almsgiving so long as I shall live; (32) And to be duteous to her that bare me: and he hath not made me proud, depraved. (33) And the peace of God was on me the day I was born, and will be the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised to life. (34) This is Jesus, the son of Mary; this is a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt." Holy Quran - Mary - 19:29-34

There are many other verses talking about Jesus, Christians and Jews in the Quran. At the very beginning of the Quran God defines the believers as those who believe in what has been revealed upon the heart of Muhammad (pbuh) and in that which was been revealed earlier i.e. Books of Moses, Prophets, and Gospels of new testament.

[Light Travelling]

I entered this thread some time ago because I had some information I thought was of interest. However, I involve myself in this science forum because I love science. Religion is not science. Some aspects of religion can be discussed scientifically, and that is appropriate for this part of the forum.

This subsection is comparative religion, where the beliefs of differing religions may be discussed and compared with each other. I think the emphasis should be on the beleifs of the religions rather than those of the people posting.

Where I was originally going with this, was a look at how the Christian bible can be interpreted in line with eastern religious thought, specifically Hindu. Some Christians (per Loris comment) are very taken with the ‘in the flesh’ aspects of the bible, but we can equally look at the spirit references and the references to man being like God. We then can see similarities to the divinity of man, spiritual origins and re-incarnation that are talked of in various Hindu schools of thought. (now maybe I should have started another thread for that but..… well I didn’t)


i'm sorry but, i don't agree with your viewpoint at all.

Are you saying that ‘you’ don’t agree with my point of view? Or that traditional Christianity doesn’t agree with my point of view? I understood you to be a Christian, which was why I specifically directed my question at you.

Incidentally, I am not necessarily expressing my point of view here, what I am doing is exploring different interpretations of the Bible with a view to comparison with other religions…


man was created along with the earth, plants, animals, and was made of the earth. man walked in the garden with god, until they were genetically manipulated (sin) to know evil. the purpose of christ is to bring us genetically, back to our original state (biologically), only now, knowing of good and evil, because of our opportunity to experience it.

But the key phrase (even traditionally) in the creation of man story is that, "God breathed life giving breath into man" Gen 2:7. This is generally accepted as god imparting spirit to man i.e. giving him a spiritual part, Gen1:2 again talks of the spirit of god.

Now I have heard Christians talk of the dead rising to life in the flesh before, but the genetics you are talking about; Is that just your opinion or is there a particular branch of a church that adheres to those thoughts?


Ether you or LT is rong... but no prollem... Gods plan includes a place for people who dont corectly figer out the puzzle of makein it to heaven... an heres anuther puzzler... its a hot place... begins wit "H" an has 4 letters... eh.!!!

It is not necessarily about right and wrong but differing interpretations of religious texts.

If we apply the Hindu model of reincarnation, no one goes to hell for eternity because people get unlimited lives to get it right. (grossly oversimplified)

[Light Travelling]

There are many other verses talking about Jesus, Christians and Jews in the Quran. At the very beginning of the Quran God defines the believers as those who believe in what has been revealed upon the heart of Muhammad (pbuh) and in that which was been revealed earlier i.e. Books of Moses, Prophets, and Gospels of new testament.

The bible would actually agree with you on that, although you’d be hard pushed to find a Christian who would admit it.
COL 3:11 “Christ is in all; gentile; Jew; barbarian; savage”

[cluelusshusbund]

i think it's ironic that the only people on this forum i ever hear this "you're going to hell" crap from are atheists.

I dont find it ironic that you woud find it ironic that atheists woud discuss main stream beleifs of a main stream religion... cause you have tunnel-vision to you'r own beleifs which include that everbody is alredy in hell... lol.!!!
-------------------

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Ether you or LT is rong... but no prollem... Gods plan includes a place for people who dont corectly figer out the puzzle of makein it to heaven... an heres anuther puzzler... its a hot place... begins wit "H" an has 4 letters... eh.!!!


Light Trvelling
It is not necessarily about right and wrong but differing interpretations of religious texts.


Yes... an my broader pont is... these diferent interpretations cant all be corect but they coud all be rong.!!!

[Lori_7]

I dont find it ironic that you woud find it ironic that atheists woud discuss main stream beleifs of a main stream religion... cause you have tunnel-vision to you'r own beleifs which include that everbody is alredy in hell... lol.!!!


lol!!! :rolleyes:

you must think i just fell of the proverbial turnip truck! hardy har har, der!

i've been around here long enough to know that most atheists aren't a bit interested in discussing main stream beliefs of a man stream religion. they're really interested in being repugnant towards those who believe.

[Lori_7]

You might hear that from some Muslims too but this is because they have faulty understanding of their own religion and/or because they see many westerns behaving in manners that contradict the word of God. Everyone who believes in God and in that which has been revealed by God are going to enter paradise.


"(15) SAY: Is this, or the Paradise of Eternity which was promised to the God-fearing, best? Their recompense shall it be and their retreat; (16) Abiding therein for ever, they shall have in it all that they desire! It is a promise to be claimed of thy Lord." Holy Quran - The Criterion - 25:15-16

"Among the people of the Book are those who believe in God, and in what He hath sent down to you, and in what He hath sent down to them, humbling themselves before God. They barter not the signs of God for a mean price. These shall have their reward with their Lord; verily God is swift in account." Holy Quran - Family of Imran - 3:199

Talking about Jesus peace upon Him:


"(29) And she made a sign to them, pointing towards the babe. They said, "How shall we speak with him who is in the cradle, an infant? (30) It said, "Verily, I am the servant of God; He hath given me the Book, and He hath made me a prophet; (31) And He hath made me blessed wherever I may be, and hath enjoined me prayer and almsgiving so long as I shall live; (32) And to be duteous to her that bare me: and he hath not made me proud, depraved. (33) And the peace of God was on me the day I was born, and will be the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised to life. (34) This is Jesus, the son of Mary; this is a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt." Holy Quran - Mary - 19:29-34

There are many other verses talking about Jesus, Christians and Jews in the Quran. At the very beginning of the Quran God defines the believers as those who believe in what has been revealed upon the heart of Muhammad (pbuh) and in that which was been revealed earlier i.e. Books of Moses, Prophets, and Gospels of new testament.

hi yosef,

do muslims then believe that jesus is the christ and that salvation is found in him?

[cluelusshusbund]

lol!!! :rolleyes:

you must think i just fell of the proverbial turnip truck!


Thats puttin it mildly... lol.!!!



i've been around here long enough to know that most atheists aren't a bit interested in discussing main stream beliefs of a man stream religion.


An yet... hell is a main stream beleif of a main stream religion you accuse atheists of brangin up for discussion... lol.!!!



they're really interested in being repugnant towards those who believe.

An i notice "beleivers" not willin to have a honest discusson about hell... so its go-time... lol... lets me an you have a honest... non-repugnant discusson about hell... yes.???

[Lori_7]

Thats puttin it mildly... lol.!!!



An yet... hell is a main stream beleif of a main stream religion you accuse atheists of brangin up for discussion... lol.!!!



An i notice "beleivers" not willin to have a honest discusson about hell... so its go-time... lol... lets me an you have a honest... non-repugnant discusson about hell... yes.???

no. never been there, so i don't know a thing about it. sorry.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...lets me an you have a honest... non-repugnant discusson about hell... yes.???


no.

lol.!!!

[Light Travelling]

hi yosef,

do muslims then believe that jesus is the christ and that salvation is found in him?

Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet of god, but not the son of god.

[Lori_7]

Are you saying that ‘you’ don’t agree with my point of view? Or that traditional Christianity doesn’t agree with my point of view? I understood you to be a Christian, which was why I specifically directed my question at you.

Incidentally, I am not necessarily expressing my point of view here, what I am doing is exploring different interpretations of the Bible with a view to comparison with other religions…

to me, christian faith is a very personal thing. it's not about tradition with me and i don't feel like it's appropriate to speak for anyone else, much less the majority. having said that, from what i've observed and heard from the majority, is that the kingdom of christ will be here on earth, and that we will inhabit immortal bodies.

look at the lord's prayer...

thy kingdom come. thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.




But the key phrase (even traditionally) in the creation of man story is that, "God breathed life giving breath into man" Gen 2:7. This is generally accepted as god imparting spirit to man i.e. giving him a spiritual part, Gen1:2 again talks of the spirit of god.

we are spiritual beings yes. i believe that everything that is material is a spiritual manifestation. i apologize, i'm not much of a bible thumper, but it does say that somewhere in the book.


Now I have heard Christians talk of the dead rising to life in the flesh before, but the genetics you are talking about; Is that just your opinion or is there a particular branch of a church that adheres to those thoughts?


i really don't know if there are many, or even some, who think on things the way i do. but it seems fairly common sense to me that if sin resides in the flesh and we are all born into it, that it is a genetic condition.

[Lori_7]

Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet of god, but not the son of god.

that's kind of funny. i suppose they think he wasn't a very good or accurate prophet since he claimed repeatedly to be the only way to the father. through him, the son.

[Cifo]

To begin with, how much did he suffer in losing his mortal form? He was God after all, who was given a taste of mortal life. It would be like a human losing their Internet privileges forever, and their presence in cyberspace ends. It would be sorely missed by us, but it would not be the end of our world.

How much did he really enjoy his life on Earth? It's not as though he was filthy rich and living like a king, or that he was a hedonistic party animal. So what was he losing?

[NMSquirrel]

I woud have to have beleifs that "God" esists to be rong about who or what God is.!!!


Well for myself... i have no idea if ther realy is a God or Gods... but if a "God" did create life the way it is... "its" a monster-God... so for me... the idea of "livin" forever ant a very sweet deal if it involves spendin eternity wit a sadistic mass murderer.!!!

you have already determined that god is a mass murderer..

[Light Travelling]

that's kind of funny. i suppose they think he wasn't a very good or accurate prophet since he claimed repeatedly to be the only way to the father. through him, the son.

Well, they believe that it is erroneous translation and interpretation that have led Christians to think he is the son of god. Jesus often refers to himself as the son of man in the bible. There are in fact only a few direct references to Jesus the person being the only son of god.

Here is a passage, Koran :76
“They are unbelievers who say, God is the messiah, Mary’s son. For the Messiah said ‘Children of Israel , serve God, my lord and your lord’”

And 2:254
“And we gave Jesus, son of Mary the clear signs, and confirmed him with the holy spirit”

And of course the only way to the father could still be through him (through his teachings) without him actually being the son of god.


i really don't know if there are many, or even some, who think on things the way i do. but it seems fairly common sense to me that if sin resides in the flesh and we are all born into it, that it is a genetic condition.

Ok , but your premise is that sin resides in the flesh, where do you get that from? I do not think the bible ever says that?

It says we are born into sin, but not that sin resides in the flesh. And even born in sin can have different interpretations.

[NMSquirrel]

I think the emphasis should be on the beleifs of the religions rather than those of the people posting.
its easier for ppl to belittle other ppl than it is to belittle the ideas presented.

Incidentally, I am not necessarily expressing my point of view here, what I am doing is exploring different interpretations of the Bible with a view to comparison with other religions…
don't let the idiots get you sidetracked in a slam war..


It is not necessarily about right and wrong but differing interpretations of religious texts.
one must consider how they:
think,feel,know,and believe
in any given area of their life before they determine what is right or wrong..
unfortunatly,we tend to make our decisions based on how we feel,and do not consider the think,know,believe part..


If we apply the Hindu model of reincarnation, no one goes to hell for eternity because people get unlimited lives to get it right. (grossly oversimplified)
some would consider that hell...
which are you..the whale or the petunias. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LLbQ7WDh8c&feature=search).

[Skeptical]

I still believe this is an inappropriate forum for a discussion of Christian superstitions, such as the "miracle" of transsubstantiation.

My own interest in religion is psychological. I am constantly puzzled and therefore interested in the irrationality of most people. Superstition and religion typify this lack of rationality in human thought.

When it comes to telling people they are going to hell, that is not me. Heaven and hell are simply more superstitious beliefs.

Incidentally, I am not really someone who cares if you have a religious belief. But I am interested in how you got it. If you simply chose to believe what priests, parents etc told you, then you are behaving irrationally.

If your belief is based on reading a book that is thousands of years old and demonstrably riddled with errors of fact, then your belief is irrational.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

If you claim to have experienced a "spiritual moment", then your belief is also irrational. Such moments can be induced by drugs, meditation, or even a whack over the head. Any chemical imbalance.

If, on the other hand, you have decided in the existence of deity as a result of careful and rational thought, then I have no problem with your decision (I do not agree, but I have no problem with it).

If you are religious, are you rational about it, or not? If irrational, then your belief has no merit and no strength.

[cluelusshusbund]

you have already determined that god is a mass murderer..

I dout that Holey Bible God esists... much less that he drowned almos everbody on earf... thats what "beleivers" clame.!!!

[NMSquirrel]

But I am interested in how you got it. If you simply chose to believe what priests, parents etc told you, then you are behaving irrationally.
do as your told...hate that..


If your belief is based on reading a book that is thousands of years old and demonstrably riddled with errors of fact, then your belief is irrational.
i use it to confirm what god has taught me, and to communicate certain concepts and idea's, i do not view the bible as a rule book,it is not..i view it as a guide book.


If you claim to have experienced a "spiritual moment", then your belief is also irrational. Such moments can be induced by drugs, meditation, or even a whack over the head. Any chemical imbalance.
does having a moment and not realizing you were having a moment till after the fact count?


If, on the other hand, you have decided in the existence of deity as a result of careful and rational thought, then I have no problem with your decision (I do not agree, but I have no problem with it).
depends on if your the type who puts christians in a box or not (you don't seem like it.)

[NMSquirrel]

I dout that Holey Bible God esists... much less that he drowned almos everbody on earf... thats what "beleivers" clame.!!!

that is what you are choosing to believe..
why are you so scared of god?
is it a 'if i believe in him, he will punish me for my sins' thing?

[Skeptical]

Neither clueluss or I believe in deity. Thus we cannot be afraid of what a non-existent deity will do.

However, that belief in most cases appears to be quite irrational, and I am still interested in why.

[NMSquirrel]

Neither clueluss or I believe in deity. Thus we cannot be afraid of what a non-existent deity will do.
when clueless talks about god, it is in the negative,like god is a bad god..so he is saying he doesn't believe in god because god is bad.


However, that belief in most cases appears to be quite irrational, and I am still interested in why.

hmm..humans being rational..nice ideal..not always the case..(see previous posts on 'emotionally based')

[Lori_7]

To begin with, how much did he suffer in losing his mortal form? He was God after all, who was given a taste of mortal life. It would be like a human losing their Internet privileges forever, and their presence in cyberspace ends. It would be sorely missed by us, but it would not be the end of our world.

How much did he really enjoy his life on Earth? It's not as though he was filthy rich and living like a king, or that he was a hedonistic party animal. So what was he losing?

he was at least losing out on whatever satan was offering him.

john 5:19
"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise."

now, i don't know if this was a sacrifice for jesus, since he was born without sin, but for the rest of us, it's a struggle to sacrifice your own will, for the will of the father.

i refer to that struggle and sacrifice as crucifying your flesh. there's a dichotomy between the flesh and the spirit were the desires of the flesh directly oppose the will of the father...

galatians 5:17

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.


if jesus didn't have this struggle himself, then he did in fact die just for all of us.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I dout that Holey Bible God esists... much less that he drowned almos everbody on earf... thats what "beleivers" clame.!!!


that is what you are choosing to believe..


Is wantin you'r Bible storys to be true... enuff to make 'em true.???



why are you so scared of god?


I dont have beleifs you'r God esists... but ant that part of you'r beleif... to fear you'r God.???



is it a 'if i believe in him, he will punish me for my sins' thing?

"Sin" is jus anuther thang i dont have beleifs in.!!!

[NMSquirrel]

I dont have beleifs you'r God esists... but ant that part of you'r beleif... to fear you'r God.???
maybe thats why so many ppl believe fear equals respect...



"Sin" is jus anuther thang i dont have beleifs in.!!!

sin is a word used to describe certain characteristics..its not a concept..its a definition..

[cluelusshusbund]

when clueless talks about god, it is in the negative,like god is a bad god..so he is saying he doesn't believe in god because god is bad.


No... dew to a lack of evidence i dont have beleifs that Holey Bible God esists... its comical to me how "beleivers" (out of fear) pant therself into a corner of clamin they want to spend eternity wit a God which the Holey Bible describes as a monster.!!!

[Lori_7]

Well, they believe that it is erroneous translation and interpretation that have led Christians to think he is the son of god. Jesus often refers to himself as the son of man in the bible. There are in fact only a few direct references to Jesus the person being the only son of god.

Here is a passage, Koran :76
“They are unbelievers who say, God is the messiah, Mary’s son. For the Messiah said ‘Children of Israel , serve God, my lord and your lord’”

And 2:254
“And we gave Jesus, son of Mary the clear signs, and confirmed him with the holy spirit”

And of course the only way to the father could still be through him (through his teachings) without him actually being the son of god.

i see. there is also biblical scripture that seems to refer to angels as sons of god. the trinity is a difficult thing to try to get your head around, particularly the relationship between the father and the son, or the difference between them. the way i think about it, i identify the father with law that governs creation, and jesus with the human manifestation of that. which relates to the following discussion...




Ok , but your premise is that sin resides in the flesh, where do you get that from? I do not think the bible ever says that?

It says we are born into sin, but not that sin resides in the flesh. And even born in sin can have different interpretations.

it also says that the sins of the father are bestowed upon the son, which i think is indicative of genetic traits.

the dichotomy that the bible talks about between the spirit and the flesh is also a sign of where it resides.


galations 5:16

but I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

this is interesting scripture too, speaking of the dichotomy, and also the redemption of our bodies...

Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers, [4] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons [5] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I dont have beleifs you'r God esists... but ant that part of you'r beleif... to fear you'r God.??? ”


Squrrell
maybe thats why so many ppl believe fear equals respect...


Woud you respect you'r God if you didnt fear him.???

[Light Travelling]

I still believe this is an inappropriate forum for a discussion of Christian superstitions, such as the "miracle" of transsubstantiation.


http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=64634

[Skeptical]

To LT.

Quoting from your above reference.

"This forum is designed for more scientific approach to the religion, or in other words ‘more rational than emotional’ approach."

You will probably disagree with me, but belief in miracles and the like are not scientific or rational. Thus to discuss them is not appropriate for the science forum, unless it is to examine such claims in the light of scientific knowledge and scientific discussion.

I really do not see why you feel you have to do this anyway. The internet is replete with Christian discussion forums, where you can exercise your superstitious beliefs without let or hindrance. I can assure you that I will not be part of such forums.

[Yosef]

We believe that Jesus is a perfect prophet of God. The Quran criticizes the way He sometimes is considered to be God by Christians. God says also that He (God) neither has been born to anyone nor has He given birth to anyone.

When it comes to sin. I believe that the believer needs to practice living by the word of God. The body and the devil make sin look fine in our eyes but the spirit needs to be trained to obey only God. Then God will step in and give you the power to stay on the straight path. Tempting things of the past lose their power and obeying God becomes easy. But all of this needs belief, conviction and determination in order to take place. We should not devalue (not take seriously) that good life and satisfaction lies in submitting perfectly to God Almighty.

As to Jesus, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said one time that he (Jesus) is the only man never been touched by the Devil's fingers. We believe that he is coming back at end of times in order to fight evil. He is the only prophet to be said in the Quran to: a. be a Word spoken (unto Mary) b. equipped with the "Holy Spirit". At couple of verses in the Quran he is referred to as the Messiah Jesus son of Mary (Arabic: Al Masih Aísa ibn Maryam)

I will happily provide references to the verses some time later.

[NMSquirrel]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Woud you respect you'r God if you didnt fear him.???

does respect need fear?

[cluelusshusbund]

does respect need fear?

No.!!!

Woud you respect you'r God if you didnt fear him.???

[NMSquirrel]

No.!!!

Woud you respect you'r God if you didnt fear him.???

dunno..i would like to think i would..

[cluelusshusbund]

dunno..i would like to think i would..

Does you'r fear of God keep you from sinnin mor than you do.???

[Light Travelling]

To LT.

Quoting from your above reference.

"This forum is designed for more scientific approach to the religion, or in other words ‘more rational than emotional’ approach."

You will probably disagree with me, but belief in miracles and the like are not scientific or rational. Thus to discuss them is not appropriate for the science forum, unless it is to examine such claims in the light of scientific knowledge and scientific discussion.

I really do not see why you feel you have to do this anyway. The internet is replete with Christian discussion forums, where you can exercise your superstitious beliefs without let or hindrance. I can assure you that I will not be part of such forums.


I agree with you. You will see from my approach that I do want a rational discussion, I do not generally get involved in the emotional to and forth banter that others seem to enjoy. I am more interested in discussing, differences and similarities between different religions and different ways of interpreting religious texts.

The 'scientific' approach to discussing religion is to look at religious beliefs and practices compare and discuss origins etc, it is not supposed to be applying science to the claims of the religions to prove them wrong. There is a separate ‘religion’ sub forum here which seems to be for that purpose.

[Light Travelling]

Does you'r fear of God keep you from sinnin mor than you do.???
This is the thing though, it is possible that the billions of religious people across the world are held in check by their fear of the afterlife. If science could absolutely prove and guarantee to all these people that there were no afterlife reproductions, would their behaviour decline. Would they think "hell, why not steal, kill, rape etc, I 'll just take what I can by force in this life cos I know there’s nothing else to come". Even if half of then deteriorated in some way, the net effect across the world could be catastrophic.

[cluelusshusbund]

...it is possible that the billions of religious people across the world are held in check by their fear of the afterlife.

If science could absolutely prove and guarantee to all these people that there were no afterlife reproductions, would their behaviour decline.

Would they think "hell, why not steal, kill, rape etc, I 'll just take what I can by force in this life cos I know there’s nothing else to come". Even if half of then deteriorated in some way, the net effect across the world could be catastrophic.

I dont know... is fear of afterlife whats keepin you from stealin killin an rapein.???

I suspect that if beleivers in afterlife suddenly realized ther was no afterlife... that sudden change in world view woud have a depressive effect... until they learned to fill that void-of-fear wit ther new found feelin-of-freedom... an if they had prevously been a good or bad person... they woud continue to be that good or bad person.!!!

If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.????

[Light Travelling]

I dont know... is fear of afterlife whats keepin you from stealin killin an rapein.???

Not me personally , but I suspect it does it for some..


I suspect that if beleivers in afterlife suddenly realized ther was no afterlife... that sudden change in world view woud have a depressive effect... until they learned to fill that void-of-fear wit ther new found feelin-of-freedom... an if they had prevously been a good or bad person... they woud continue to be that good or bad person.!!!

Maybe, maybe not.. can you say for sure. There are a lot of people that spend their lives wresting with their demons (metaphorically)


If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.????

That’s what I was asking you?

[Skeptical]

I am from New Zealand, which is a nation of unbelievers. Well, not quite. But almost half our population is openly a non believer in any religion.

The United States by comparison is about 90% avowed religious - mostly Christian, including a hell of a lot of fundamentalists.

What does this religious belief do in terms of serious crime? Well, the murder rate in the USA is 5 per 100,000 per year. In New Zealand, it is 1.2. So religious America has four times the per capita murder rate of non believing New Zealand.

A bit tongue in cheek, I conclude that religion makes people into murderers!

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...is fear of afterlife whats keepin you from stealin killin an rapein.??? ”



Not me personally , but I suspect it does it for some..


So you'r an esample of a person who doesnt need a fear of afterlife to keep the morals you curently have.!!!

My wife is also such an esample... she was raized wit Pennycost (Christan) beleifs thru 20 years old... when i (a atheist) firs saw her at her cousins house i knew i wanted to date her insted of her cousin an we was married 6 mounthes later... she stoped goin to church an her only regret is that she didnt stop goin soomer... she was a grate moral person when she went to church (beleived in afterlife) an that never changed.!!!

-------------------
“ Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I suspect that if beleivers in afterlife suddenly realized ther was no afterlife... that sudden change in world view woud have a depressive effect... until they learned to fill that void-of-fear wit ther new found feelin-of-freedom... an if they had prevously been a good or bad person... they woud continue to be that good or bad person.!!! ”



Maybe, maybe not.. can you say for sure.


Notice i said "i suspect".!!!



There are a lot of people that spend their lives wresting with their demons (metaphorically)


An i dout that puttin a fear into 'em so that they will beleive that demons/devels/gosts/gobblins/wiches... ect. are real an out to get 'em... an if they dont beleive certan thangs they will be tortured for eternity... is all that benificial to people who are alredy wrestlin wit troubles.!!!

---------------

“ Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.???? ”



That’s what I was asking you?


Please note that i answrd what you ask me... what is you'r answr to my queston:::

"If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.???”

[Light Travelling]

I am from New Zealand, which is a nation of unbelievers. Well, not quite. But almost half our population is openly a non believer in any religion.

The United States by comparison is about 90% avowed religious - mostly Christian, including a hell of a lot of fundamentalists.

What does this religious belief do in terms of serious crime? Well, the murder rate in the USA is 5 per 100,000 per year. In New Zealand, it is 1.2. So religious America has four times the per capita murder rate of non believing New Zealand.

A bit tongue in cheek, I conclude that religion makes people into murderers!

OK, to keep your tongue in cheek argument going, here is a table of murder rates. Some of the highest are from very religious countries and some of the lowest are from very religious countries, so I would say…. inconclusive

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita


Some of the lowest are Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Greece, all very religious

[Light Travelling]

So you'r an esample of a person who doesnt need a fear of afterlife to keep the morals you curently have.!!!

My wife is also such an esample... she was raized wit Pennycost (Christan) beleifs thru 20 years old... when i (a atheist) firs saw her at her cousins house i knew i wanted to date her insted of her cousin an we was married 6 mounthes later... she stoped goin to church an her only regret is that she didnt stop goin soomer... she was a grate moral person when she went to church (beleived in afterlife) an that never changed.!!!

OK I see where your going here… a bit of background on me, I am not a Christain nor am I a member of any other organised religion, nor have I ever been in my life.

I would also say, you do not know what morals I currently have???? Or what morals I have had in the past???



“ Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.???? ”
Please note that i answrd what you ask me... what is you'r answr to my queston:::
"If you suddenly found out for sure that ther was no Gods/afterlife... wooud you want everbody to suddenly have this knowledge if you was certan it woud have no over-all negetive effect on the world.???”

OK a straight answer;

Yes I would want everyone to know.

No I would not be certain that it would have no over all negative effect on the world

[cluelusshusbund]

I am not a Christain nor am I a member of any other organised religion, nor have I ever been in my life.


Do you have beleifs in a "afterlife".???

[Light Travelling]

I am from New Zealand, which is a nation of unbelievers. Well, not quite. But almost half our population is openly a non believer in any religion.

The United States by comparison is about 90% avowed religious - mostly Christian, including a hell of a lot of fundamentalists.

What does this religious belief do in terms of serious crime? Well, the murder rate in the USA is 5 per 100,000 per year. In New Zealand, it is 1.2. So religious America has four times the per capita murder rate of non believing New Zealand.

A bit tongue in cheek, I conclude that religion makes people into murderers!

Hey , here’s another good statistic for you, New Zealand is No.1 in the world for having the highest number of rape victims. So, using your own logic, a lack of religion turns people into rapists :rolleyes:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims

[Light Travelling]

Do you have beleifs in a "afterlife".???

I have a belief in re-incarnation, although I am not necessarily saying we have a soul, but I believe there is re-incarnation, as in a continuation of consciousness (or mind).

[Skeptical]

LT

You have been clearly looking up statistics. Good for you. I love factual data.

Interpretation, however, is another matter. NZ has the highest number of rape victims simply because our women tell the truth. Elsewhere, they protect their relatives by pretending not to have been raped.

Conclusion, the least religious are the most truthful.

(Also tongue in cheek)

[cluelusshusbund]

I believe there is re-incarnation, as in a continuation of consciousness (or mind).

Are you certan thats true.???

[Skeptical]

Actually, upon reflection, I have to comment further on rape.
It is a widely accepted fact that only a small proportion of rape victims ever report the crime. This is especially true when the rapist is a member of the family.

New Zealand authorities have been working hard for many years to encourage reporting of this horrible offense. As a result, reporting has increased greatly. I note that the second highest (Austria) is also a country with low general crime rates. I believe that Austria and NZ have the highest stats for rape victims purely because our societies are more willing to help those who have been raped. Those nations who treat rape victims badly are the ones with low rape victim stats, purely because the unfortunate victims are unwilling to report what happened.

It is also true that the list of countries is massively incomplete. Where is South Africa - known centre of many rapes? Where are the nations with the highest crime rates and the poorest records for treating women?

Look at the following reference, and tell me where the worst nations are?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

[Light Travelling]

Are you certan thats true.???
If you mean do I feel certain about it , then yes.

If you mean can I absolutely empirically prove it beyond any doubt at all, then no.

PS;

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
My wife is also such an esample... she was raized wit Pennycost (Christan) beleifs thru 20 years old... when i (a atheist) firs saw her at her cousins house i knew i wanted to date her insted of her cousin an we was married 6 mounthes later... she stoped goin to church an her only regret is that she didnt stop goin soomer... she was a grate moral person when she went to church (beleived in afterlife) an that never changed.!!!


,I bet your wife’s congregation were pissed at you :D

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Are you certan thats true.??? ”



If you mean do I feel certain about it , then yes.


Have you ever felt certan about a beleif an later determined that beleif was rong.???

So... do you thank thers anythang for anyone to fear after they dye.???
---------------

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...when i (a atheist) firs saw her at her cousins house i knew i wanted to date her insted of her cousin an we was married 6 mounthes later... she stoped goin to church...



I bet your wife’s congregation were pissed at you


The prevous Preecher of her church had advised her to get rid of her prevous boyfrind because he was a "liberal" type Pennycost (som of the womens cut ther hare)... but that Preecher had to leave the church cause he got caut havin an affare wit 1 of the congragation... an i only went to church wit her 2 times (she was prolly advised to invite me)... an the las time i went the preecher said... let us now get down on our knees an pray... well i/we didnt get down... an after the third time he said it while lookin at us... i tolt her... lets leave an we left... lol... but i dont even recall wonderin what the congregation mite have thout of me... an surprizin to me... her family was nice to me... an they NEVER invited me to go to church an never interfeared in our marriage :shrug:

[Light Travelling]

Have you ever felt certan about a beleif an later determined that beleif was rong.???
I think all our beliefs change as we go through our lives, I think that is a good thing. We are on a journey through life and we should adapt our outlook and beliefs as we go through it.

And we all do have beliefs, even if it nothing spiritual. We all choose what morals to believe in for example. There are no objective good or bad morals, so what we choose in that respect are also our beleifs, these too should change as we go through life...




So... do you thank thers anythang for anyone to fear after they dye.???
Nothing to fear I think. I believe there is a continuation of existence after death. Death and life being part of the same cycle. But nothing to fear.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So... do you thank thers anythang for anyone to fear after they dye.???


LT
Nothing to fear I think. I believe there is a continuation of existence after death. Death and life being part of the same cycle. But nothing to fear.

Is ther a "God" which created this continuation of existence after death.???

[Light Travelling]

Is ther a "God" which created this continuation of existence after death.???

I think there is a god (I am a theist if you like), but a pantheistic god, an all encompassing god, something like a greater consciousness, or an intelligence to the universe itself.

[cluelusshusbund]

I think there is a god (I am a theist if you like), but a pantheistic god, an all encompassing god, something like a greater consciousness, or an intelligence to the universe itself.

Do you thank this "God" has a purpos for humans.???

[Lori_7]

Do you thank this "God" has a purpos for humans.???

can you guess what it is?

[cluelusshusbund]

can you guess what it is?

Aparently... for thangs to be esactly the way they are... if its a all knowin all powerful "God"... but i want to know if LT (or you) beleives that "God" has a purpos for humans beyond what we have alredy esperienced.!!!

[Lori_7]

Aparently... for thangs to be esactly the way they are... if its a all knowin all powerful "God"... but i want to know if LT (or you) beleives that "God" has a purpos for humans beyond what we have alredy esperienced.!!!

even with things being exactly the way they are, and especially given the prospect that they could change, what do you think the purpose of humanity is?

[Light Travelling]

Aparently... for thangs to be esactly the way they are... if its a all knowin all powerful "God"... but i want to know if LT (or you) beleives that "God" has a purpos for humans beyond what we have alredy esperienced.!!!

I do not think of god as a separate being controlling the universe or, as us being separate from the universe. I do not see us as being separate from god for that matter, I think that we are all part of the same whole, conscious existence.

The purpose for the future; to evolve; to realise that we are completely interconnected with the universe, to realise that the universe is intelligent; and that we are an integral part of that intelligent universe. The purpose is to realise god, or become god realised, in other words to realise that we are god.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Is ther a "God" which created this continuation of existence after death.???


I think there is a god (I am a theist if you like), but a pantheistic god, an all encompassing god, something like a greater consciousness, or an intelligence to the universe itself.

Do you thank this "God" has a purpos for humans.???


I do not think of god as a separate being controlling the universe or, as us being separate from the universe. I do not see us as being separate from god for that matter, I think that we are all part of the same whole, conscious existence.

The purpose for the future; to evolve; to realise that we are completely interconnected with the universe,


I thank im alredy evolved to that pont.!!!



to realise that the universe is intelligent;


Does that include inanimate objects.???



and that we are an integral part of that intelligent universe.


Integral in what way.???



The purpose is to realise god, or become god realised, in other words to realise that we are god.

Do you realize you are God... an if so... what effect does it have on you.???


even with things being exactly the way they are, and especially given the prospect that they could change, what do you think the purpose of humanity is?

As far as i know... any propos we have is ones we make up.!!!

Do you thank we have a God-givin purpos.???

[Lori_7]

As far as i know... any propos we have is ones we make up.!!!

Do you thank we have a God-givin purpos.???

yes, i think it's communion.

[Light Travelling]

God given, no. But we do have purpose, purpose is to be all we can be..

NB. God given presumes the pre-existence of god before man, that is a creator god. I.E. god was there first and gave man a purpose. I do not believe this, so No, there can never be any god given purpose.

CluelessHus..

Whats ya point with all the 'purpose' questioning?

[Skeptical]

My purpose is not god given. It is me-given.

My purpose is to sit on a comfortable lounger overlooking the sea on a lovely summer's day, sipping a cold beer, and chatting to a good friend. I cannot think of any better purpose.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Is ther a "God" which created this continuation of existence after death.???


LT
I think there is a god (I am a theist if you like), but a pantheistic god, an all encompassing god, something like a greater consciousness, or an intelligence to the universe itself. ”


Do you thank this "God" has a purpos for humans.???



The purpose is to realise god, or become god realised, in other words to realise that we are god. ”


Do you realize you are God... an if so... what effect does it have on you.???


God given, no. But we do have purpose, purpose is to be all we can be..

NB. God given presumes the pre-existence of god before man, that is a creator god. I.E. god was there first and gave man a purpose. I do not believe this, so No, there can never be any god given purpose.

CluelessHus..

Whats ya point with all the 'purpose' questioning?

Educatin myself about you'r God beleifs.!!!


Lori_7
even with things being exactly the way they are, and especially given the prospect that they could change, what do you think the purpose of humanity is? ”


As far as i know... any propos we have is ones we make up.!!!

Do you thank we have a God-givin purpos.???


yes, i think it's communion.

Are you certan its God givin an that its communion.???

[Lori_7]

Are you certan its God givin an that its communion.???

that's what he told me.

[Skeptical]

Joan of Arc had little voices whispering in her ear also. As did every schizophrenic ever since.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Are you certan its God givin an that its communion.???


that's what he told me.

I will take that as a yes.!!!

Did God know esactly how his communion plan woud turn out even befor he put that plan into action.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Are you certan its God givin an that its communion.???



I will take that as a yes.!!!

Did God know esactly how his communion plan woud turn out even befor he put that plan into action.???

yeah. time is not a constraint for god.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Did God know esactly how his communion plan woud turn out even befor he put that plan into action.???


yeah. time is not a constraint for god.

So he knew it was inevitable that chidren woud be raped if he put his plan into action... but he did it anyway.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Did God know esactly how his communion plan woud turn out even befor he put that plan into action.???



So he knew it was inevitable that chidren woud be raped if he put his plan into action... but he did it anyway.???

you have asked me this so many times. yes.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So he knew it was inevitable that chidren woud be raped if he put his plan into action... but he did it anyway.???


Lori
yes.

Coud God have acheived his gole of communion if he had eliminated the specific desire (that som people have) to rape children.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So he knew it was inevitable that chidren woud be raped if he put his plan into action... but he did it anyway.???



Coud God have acheived his gole of communion if he had eliminated the specific desire (that som people have) to rape children.???

apparently not.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Coud God have acheived his gole of communion if he had eliminated the specific desire (that som people have) to rape children.???


apparently not.

So God is all-knowin but not all-powerful.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Coud God have acheived his gole of communion if he had eliminated the specific desire (that som people have) to rape children.???



So God is all-knowin but not all-powerful.???

it seems to me he wishes to commune with those who know the consequence of sin.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Coud God have acheived his gole of communion if he had eliminated the specific desire (that som people have) to rape children.???


Lori_7
apparently not. ”


So God is all-knowin but not all-powerful.???


it seems to me he wishes to commune with those who know the consequence of sin.

So children bein raped teeches 'em the consequence of sin.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Coud God have acheived his gole of communion if he had eliminated the specific desire (that som people have) to rape children.???



So God is all-knowin but not all-powerful.???



So children bein raped teeches 'em the consequence of sin.???

it teaches those who are willing to learn. rape, and a host of other horrible things.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So children bein raped teeches 'em the consequence of sin.???


it teaches those who are willing to learn. rape, and a host of other horrible things.

Yes i supose som children are jus that stubborn... an need to be tortured an murdered along wit the rape befor they learn the consequence of sin.!!!

Here in Indina a 12 year old girl was raped... an later the guys duck taped her arms to her body... an put tape over her mouth... an taped her legs together an tossed her in a (40 degree) creek... they said she managed to breath thru her noise for about 20 minutes befor she finaly drowned... souns like she was 1 of the stubborn children... you reckin she learned the consequence of sin :shrug:

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So children bein raped teeches 'em the consequence of sin.???



Yes i supose som children are jus that stubborn... an need to be tortured an murdered along wit the rape befor they learn the consequence of sin.!!!

Here in Indina a 12 year old girl was raped... an later the guys duck taped her arms to her body... an put tape over her mouth... an taped her legs together an tossed her in a (40 degree) creek... they said she managed to breath thru her noise for about 20 minutes befor she finaly drowned... souns like she was 1 of the stubborn children... you reckin she learned the consequence of sin :shrug:

have you learned? can you believe that things like that happen every single day and some people deny that there's anything wrong with the human race that can't be solved with some new religion, or lack of religion, or a new politician, or new drug? it's crazy isn't it?

[Lori_7]

clueless, do you (want to) realize that the effects of sin are cumulative and pandemic? do you realize that there are enough nuclear weapons in the world right now to virtually extinguish the human race? do you realize that atrocities just as horrible as the rape of a child go on all over the world every day on a massive scale? do you realize that just the way the majority of us live our lives every day (when we think things are going well) is an atrocity? driving through traffic, to get to a job you hate, and sitting behind a desk for 8 hours, so you can pay your taxes and have a roof over your head and feed your family?

clueless, the human race is FUCKED UP.

i believe it's because of sin, and that jesus will fix me.

[NMSquirrel]

clueless, the human race is FUCKED UP.
i prefer my version 'human race is messed up' but just because i don't like that word..but it is accurate.

i believe it's because of sin, and that jesus will fix me.

um..your belief in jesus will fix you..

[Lori_7]

i prefer my version 'human race is messed up' but just because i don't like that word..but it is accurate.

i like that word; it's one of my faves. it's so emphatic and versatile.



um..your belief in jesus will fix you..

yeah, that's the whole point of christianity. :confused: you didn't know that?

[Lori_7]

oh wait, i understand what you're saying now! yes, i have to believe in the possibility of being fixed, and even understand that i need to be fixed, to be fixed.

[NMSquirrel]

i like that word; it's one of my faves. it's so emphatic and versatile.
thats the main reason i don't like it..it doesn't communicate anything if it means everything..


yeah, that's the whole point of christianity. :confused: you didn't know that?

oh wait, i understand what you're saying now! yes, i have to believe in the possibility of being fixed, and even understand that i need to be fixed, to be fixed.

bingo!

now..do you let man fix you or god?
who do you trust more...
god can speak through ppl, but ppl can not speak for god..

[Lori_7]

thats the main reason i don't like it..it doesn't communicate anything if it means everything..

well i never thought about it that way.




bingo!

now..do you let man fix you or god?
who do you trust more...
god can speak through ppl, but ppl can not speak for god..

god of course. it's hard to believe you're asking me that. :confused:

[NMSquirrel]

god of course. it's hard to believe you're asking me that. :confused:
it had to be asked..

[cluelusshusbund]

clueless, the human race is FUCKED UP.

i believe it's because of sin, and that jesus will fix me.

One of the mor FUGGED-UP thangs about the human race to me is... that somone woud put trust in a "God" who intentionaly chose a creation plan which makes such horrors as children bein raped... inevitable.!!!

[Lori_7]

One of the mor FUGGED-UP thangs about the human race to me is... that somone woud put trust in a "God" who intentionaly chose a creation plan which makes such horrors as children bein raped... inevitable.!!!

you would rather have a god that keeps us ignorant?

where does your propensity to love someone come from? is it just some mystical or emotional feeling that you're led by, or is it the knowledge you posses through your experience that leads you to believe that loving someone is the right thing to do? if your answer is knowledge, then can you describe for me the experience that allows you to attain it? would you agree that experiencing the absence of love would drive home a realization of it's value and importance?

[M00se1989]

to become god like we must teach ourselves right from wrong.

How is knowledge imparted?

Learning from all past experiences and showing ourselves the error in our ways.

a negative is a positive for the future.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
One of the mor FUGGED-UP thangs about the human race to me is... that somone woud put trust in a "God" who intentionaly chose a creation plan which makes such horrors as children bein raped... inevitable.!!!


you would rather have a god that keeps us ignorant?


Id prefer a God who didnt screw wit my mind in such a way that i woud try an rationalize children bein raped as a good thang.!!!

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
One of the mor FUGGED-UP thangs about the human race to me is... that somone woud put trust in a "God" who intentionaly chose a creation plan which makes such horrors as children bein raped... inevitable.!!!



Id prefer a God who didnt screw wit my mind in such a way that i woud try an rationalize children bein raped as a good thang.!!!

it's not a good thing. that's the whole point. and yet some people are just fine with the world the way it is. they justify things like lust, and violence, and hate.

you know clueless, you and i can try like hell to be "good people", and perhaps i'll even commend our efforts, but i am NOT satisfied with the results.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Id prefer a God who didnt screw wit my mind in such a way that i woud try an rationalize children bein raped as a good thang.!!!


it's not a good thing.

Which... God screwin wit you'r mind or children bein raped... or both.???

[Skeptical]

I totally disagree with the statement that the human species is fekked up.

This is, in fact a relative statment, and you ahve to say , fekked up compared to what?

I believe, in fact, that the human species is, on the whole, rather a good lot. I gained a bit of insight by following the revelations of those who study chimpanzee behaviour in the wild. Those little beggers have pretty much all the human vices, only more so. They assault, mug, murder, rape and go to war. More often than humans do, and a much higher percentage of their populations are victims.

Thinking about this, I wondered what would happen if an outsider (the proverbial little grey man from outer space) studies the human race, but could only view two or three of us at a time. They could study us for a century and never see a single rape, murder, or act of war. I think they would go away thinking humans are pretty nice creatures.

Of course, evil does exist. I am just pointing out that it is the exception. No-one is perfect, but overall, most of us are not too bad.

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Id prefer a God who didnt screw wit my mind in such a way that i woud try an rationalize children bein raped as a good thang.!!!



Which... God screwin wit you'r mind or children bein raped... or both.???

children being raped. i've actually had very beneficial results from god screwing with my mind.

[Lori_7]

I totally disagree with the statement that the human species is fekked up.

This is, in fact a relative statment, and you ahve to say , fekked up compared to what?

I believe, in fact, that the human species is, on the whole, rather a good lot. I gained a bit of insight by following the revelations of those who study chimpanzee behaviour in the wild. Those little beggers have pretty much all the human vices, only more so. They assault, mug, murder, rape and go to war. More often than humans do, and a much higher percentage of their populations are victims.

Thinking about this, I wondered what would happen if an outsider (the proverbial little grey man from outer space) studies the human race, but could only view two or three of us at a time. They could study us for a century and never see a single rape, murder, or act of war. I think they would go away thinking humans are pretty nice creatures.

Of course, evil does exist. I am just pointing out that it is the exception. No-one is perfect, but overall, most of us are not too bad.

i want perfect. i want no suffering of any kind.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Id prefer a God who didnt screw wit my mind in such a way that i woud try an rationalize children bein raped as a good thang.!!!


it's not a good thing.


Which... God screwin wit you'r mind or children bein raped... or both.???


children being raped.

Are you suportive of Gods plan which makes it inevitable that children will be raped.???

[Skeptical]

Lori

You want perfect. Nothing wrong there. Fine. How do you intend to achieve that, apart from superstitious beliefs in deity that might or might not exist, but is almost certainly immensely different from what you believe, even if he/she/it actually exists?

Personally, there are times when I would like to see the 10% or so of the human species who are capable of evil, being eliminated with no chance at breeding. After a few generations of this, simple evolution will result in a much better Homo sapiens. Of course, we cannot do that, more is the pity.

In the mean time, we live with about 10% of our fellows acting in a way that is detremental to the other 90%. Hopefully, we can find techniques that will diminish their nasty impact.

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Id prefer a God who didnt screw wit my mind in such a way that i woud try an rationalize children bein raped as a good thang.!!!



Which... God screwin wit you'r mind or children bein raped... or both.???



Are you suportive of Gods plan which makes it inevitable that children will be raped.???

yes i am. although i am not supportive of those who rape children, and i do not rape children myself.

[Lori_7]

Lori

You want perfect. Nothing wrong there. Fine. How do you intend to achieve that, apart from superstitious beliefs in deity that might or might not exist, but is almost certainly immensely different from what you believe, even if he/she/it actually exists?

Personally, there are times when I would like to see the 10% or so of the human species who are capable of evil, being eliminated with no chance at breeding. After a few generations of this, simple evolution will result in a much better Homo sapiens. Of course, we cannot do that, more is the pity.

In the mean time, we live with about 10% of our fellows acting in a way that is detremental to the other 90%. Hopefully, we can find techniques that will diminish their nasty impact.

to me it's not superstition. while i don't claim to be able to define god, i know that the spirit has impacted me in such a way that i realize we are all very flawed. i think sin is a genetic flaw that will be eliminated, the old fashioned way. that is cataclysmic events that bring the human race to near extinction, and intervention.

[Skeptical]

Lori

We have a different view of human imperfection. You call it original sin. I think of it simply as an inevitable outcome of human genetic variability. We have a special mechanism called sex, which results in offspring that are all a bit different from each other. The randomness of that difference means that some will be nicer and some nastier than the rest.

Explaining this difference through a myth centred on apples and snakes is kind of cute, but also ridiculous.

[Lori_7]

Lori

We have a different view of human imperfection. You call it original sin. I think of it simply as an inevitable outcome of human genetic variability. We have a special mechanism called sex, which results in offspring that are all a bit different from each other. The randomness of that difference means that some will be nicer and some nastier than the rest.

Explaining this difference through a myth centred on apples and snakes is kind of cute, but also ridiculous.

you really think it has to do with apples and snakes? :confused: come on now.

we could have the desire to sin bred out of us, and restored communion with god bred into us, and still have an infinite variety of wonderful, fulfilled human beings.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Are you suportive of Gods plan which makes it inevitable that children will be raped.???


yes i am.

What will this communion you talk about be like.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Are you suportive of Gods plan which makes it inevitable that children will be raped.???



What will this communion you talk about be like.???

no pain, no fear, no suffering, no sickness, no hate, NO RAPE, no violence, no lust, no greed, no sloth, no envy, no vanity, no gluttony, no anger, no waste, no death, no loneliness, no shame, no disappointment, no tears, no boundaries, and no lies.

[Gremmie]

no pain, no fear, no suffering, no sickness, no hate, NO RAPE, no violence, no lust, no greed, no sloth, no envy, no vanity, no gluttony, no anger, no waste, no death, no loneliness, no shame, no disappointment, no tears, no boundaries, and no lies.

So, what's left?:shrug:

[Lori_7]

So, what's left?:shrug:

you're kidding right? :bugeye:

[Gremmie]

you're kidding right? :bugeye:

Actually no, I'm not kidding.

In this perfect world of yours, what are we supposed to do?

We all just love one another,and dance?

Nothing to debate about?

Just a bunch of shiny happy people?

I'm serious, I just don't get it.

[cluelusshusbund]

no pain, no fear, no suffering, no sickness, no hate, NO RAPE, no violence, no lust, no greed, no sloth, no envy, no vanity, no gluttony, no anger, no waste, no death, no loneliness, no shame, no disappointment, no tears, no boundaries, and no lies.

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???

[Gremmie]

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???

My guess.. Because no God exists..:cool:

[cluelusshusbund]

My guess.. Because no God exists..:cool:

That... or God is a monster :shrug:

[Gremmie]

That... or God is a monster :shrug:

Or, just a figment of ones imagination?:shrug:

[Lori_7]

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???

if i had to guess, i'd say it's because you can't have knowledge without experience.

[Lori_7]

Actually no, I'm not kidding.

In this perfect world of yours, what are we supposed to do?

We all just love one another,and dance?

Nothing to debate about?

Just a bunch of shiny happy people?

I'm serious, I just don't get it.

sorry. :(

[Gremmie]

sorry. :(

Don't be sorry.. You have a right to your opinion(s)

I am just curious as to how this "perfect" world would be.

Personally, it sounds very dull and mundane.

Everyone on the same page, in perfect harmony.

Seems to me, there wouldn't really be much reason to exist.

No conflicting thoughts or opinions.

Just an eternity, of boredom.

Just my opinion.:)

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???


if i had to guess, i'd say it's because you can't have knowledge without experience.

So God dont have human knowledge sinse hes never esperienced bein human.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???



So God dont have human knowledge sinse hes never esperienced bein human.???

have you ever heard of a man named jesus?

[Lori_7]

Don't be sorry.. You have a right to your opinion(s)

I am just curious as to how this "perfect" world would be.

Personally, it sounds very dull and mundane.

Everyone on the same page, in perfect harmony.

Seems to me, there wouldn't really be much reason to exist.

No conflicting thoughts or opinions.

Just an eternity, of boredom.

Just my opinion.:)

i think you're just stuck in a paradigm. replacing conflict with harmony doesn't have to lead to boredom. quite the opposite actually. when communion with god is restored we will have the opportunity to be far more enlightened. we'll have an infinite number of new things to learn and discover, together. instead of taking this new knowledge and using it to destroy each other, or enslave each other, and trying to own it, we'll share it, and use it for the benefit of all.

right now i feel like the human race is retarded. think about that for a minute.

and who knows what our new bodies will be capable of. i think our instincts will definitely change, our capabilities will change. who knows...maybe we'll be able to fly!

i know that we'll appreciate a beautiful world and a joyful, peaceful existence.

we'll be free. completely free, to be ourselves, and to enjoy our world and our lives, and each other. there is an abundant wealth of good things in all of us that are currently squelched by sin, and the oppression and suffering it causes. how can you not see that?

i'd be interested to know what clueless thinks about your response.

[cluelusshusbund]

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???


Originally Posted by Lori_7
if i had to guess, i'd say it's because you can't have knowledge without experience. ”


So God dont have human knowledge sinse hes never esperienced bein human.???


have you ever heard of a man named jesus?

Because ive herd of a man named Jesus... God has knolwedge of what its like to be raped/tortured an murdered as a child.???

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by Gremmie

I am just curious as to how this "perfect" world would be.

Personally, it sounds very dull and mundane.

Everyone on the same page, in perfect harmony.

Seems to me, there wouldn't really be much reason to exist.

No conflicting thoughts or opinions.

Just an eternity, of boredom.



i'd be interested to know what clueless thinks about your response.

I thank a all-knowin all-powerful God coud turn us into door-knobs wit the knowledge/ability to preceive ourselfs as bein happy.!!!

Which begs the queston... why did God create the universe the way he did which unnecesarly makes human sufferin inevitable... unless this God is a monster.???

[Lori_7]

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???



So God dont have human knowledge sinse hes never esperienced bein human.???



Because ive herd of a man named Jesus... God has knolwedge of what its like to be raped/tortured an murdered as a child.???

clueless, god IS knowledge. god IS the laws that govern the universe. what would that mean in regards to his perspective?

[Lori_7]

I thank a all-knowin all-powerful God coud turn us into door-knobs wit the knowledge/ability to preceive ourselfs as bein happy.!!!

Which begs the queston... why did God create the universe the way he did which unnecesarly makes human sufferin inevitable... unless this God is a monster.???

i have no desire to be a door knob.

and suffering is NOT inevitable. that happens to be the very message of christ.

[Lori_7]

I thank a all-knowin all-powerful God coud turn us into door-knobs wit the knowledge/ability to preceive ourselfs as bein happy.!!!

Which begs the queston... why did God create the universe the way he did which unnecesarly makes human sufferin inevitable... unless this God is a monster.???

i wondered what you thought of his response because he doesn't want to be a door knob either, but he is also quite content living in a world where children are raped.

[Lori_7]

i apologize gremmie for putting some very harsh words in your mouth, but this is the association i make...

there are obviously different opinions about whether or not it's ok to rape someone. and while we can spend our time debating these different opinions, people can/will continue to be raped.

as opposed to...

we're all on the same page regarding rape (duh), and we can spend our time doing other things, that don't hurt and degrade people, and find something much more pleasant to discuss. see?

you should come with us gremmie. it'll be fun, i promise. the koolaid's a little bitter, but it's well worth it.

[cluelusshusbund]

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???


Originally Posted by Lori_7
if i had to guess, i'd say it's because you can't have knowledge without experience. ” ”


So God dont have human knowledge sinse hes never esperienced bein human.???



have you ever heard of a man named jesus? ”


Because ive herd of a man named Jesus... God has knolwedge of what its like to be raped/tortured an murdered as a child.???


clueless, god IS knowledge.

So what was the purpos of askin me if ive herd of a man named Jesus... lol.!!!

But oK... God is an esample of knowledge wit-out esperience (so much for you "theory" that knowledge requires esperience).!!!

Which begs the queston you chose to ignore:::

"why did God create the universe the way he did which unnecesarly makes human sufferin inevitable... unless this God is a monster.???"



...suffering is NOT inevitable.

In you'r own words:::

Lori---"there are obviously different opinions about whether or not it's ok to rape someone. and while we can spend our time debating these different opinions, people can/will continue to be raped."


Yep... God knew befor he even created 'em that Adam an Eve woud sin... God purposfully created them an ther surroundins in such a way that they had no choise but to eat the "apple"... an all the horrors of human esistence which follered was inevitable.!!!
---------------------

I thank a all-knowin all-powerful God coud turn us into door-knobs wit the knowledge/ability to preceive ourselfs as bein happy.!!!


i have no desire to be a door knob.


Which misses my pont:::

God has knowledge which didnt require that it com from esperience... an sinse God is all-knowin an all-powerful... not only coud he turn us into happy door-knobs... he coud also impart knowledge into us wit-out a necessity for us to esperience such horrors as bein burned to death or bein raped/tortured an murdered as a child.!!!

So whats you'r esplination... is God not all-knowin an all-powerful... or a monster... or what.???

[Skeptical]

What clueluss is talking about is the basic contradiction from the Christian model of deity.

Christians believe in a deity that is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent.

You do not need to look at this description terribly hard to realise it is incompatible with human existence.

An all-powerful, all-knowing God can give us any form of life. If he is also all loving and caring, then why condemn so many innocents to pain. Every year, millions of totally innocent children die in agony, from disease, accident or other causes. They are innocent and helpless. If God wants them in heaven, why kill them so cruelly?

The only answers are
1. There is no God
2. If God exists, he/she/it is quite different to the Christian model.

[Lori_7]

What clueluss is talking about is the basic contradiction from the Christian model of deity.

Christians believe in a deity that is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent.

You do not need to look at this description terribly hard to realise it is incompatible with human existence.

An all-powerful, all-knowing God can give us any form of life. If he is also all loving and caring, then why condemn so many innocents to pain. Every year, millions of totally innocent children die in agony, from disease, accident or other causes. They are innocent and helpless. If God wants them in heaven, why kill them so cruelly?

The only answers are
1. There is no God
2. If God exists, he/she/it is quite different to the Christian model.

i don't think so. have you read the OT? it's pretty brutal, just like the human existence.

i think god want's an intelligent creation, that knows good from evil, and chooses good, and chooses to love and obey, of it's own free will.

[Lori_7]

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???



So God dont have human knowledge sinse hes never esperienced bein human.???



Because ive herd of a man named Jesus... God has knolwedge of what its like to be raped/tortured an murdered as a child.???



So what was the purpos of askin me if ive herd of a man named Jesus... lol.!!!

But oK... God is an esample of knowledge wit-out esperience (so much for you "theory" that knowledge requires esperience).!!!

Which begs the queston you chose to ignore:::

"why did God create the universe the way he did which unnecesarly makes human sufferin inevitable... unless this God is a monster.???"



In you'r own words:::

Lori---"there are obviously different opinions about whether or not it's ok to rape someone. and while we can spend our time debating these different opinions, people can/will continue to be raped."


Yep... God knew befor he even created 'em that Adam an Eve woud sin... God purposfully created them an ther surroundins in such a way that they had no choise but to eat the "apple"... an all the horrors of human esistence which follered was inevitable.!!!
---------------------

I thank a all-knowin all-powerful God coud turn us into door-knobs wit the knowledge/ability to preceive ourselfs as bein happy.!!!



Which misses my pont:::

God has knowledge which didnt require that it com from esperience... an sinse God is all-knowin an all-powerful... not only coud he turn us into happy door-knobs... he coud also impart knowledge into us wit-out a necessity for us to esperience such horrors as bein burned to death or bein raped/tortured an murdered as a child.!!!

So whats you'r esplination... is God not all-knowin an all-powerful... or a monster... or what.???

we did too have a choice as to whether or not to "eat the apple". and why did we choose to? to gain knowledge. we wanted knowledge, and now we know. there are people who turn their back on this knowledge all day long while their dying in it. :shrug:

did god know what we would choose before we did? yes.

many people don't believe that we are spiritual, and that a spiritual realm exists, and we move on when we die. they think this world and this body is all there is.

do you think that would have an impact on your perspective regarding the trials of life?

[cluelusshusbund]

we did too have a choice as to whether or not to "eat the apple". and why did we choose to? to gain knowledge. we wanted knowledge...


Esactly... God knew what Adam an Eve woud do even befor he created 'em cause he designed 'em to be inqusitive/to behave esactly the way they did... ie... he wanted 'em to eat the apple.!!!



and now we know. there are people who turn their back on this knowledge all day long while their dying in it. :shrug:


You seem surprized that humans behave esactly the way they was designed to behave :shrug:



did god know what we would choose before we did? yes.


Well of course... do you thank God woud create humans in such a way that they woudnt behave how he wanted.???



many people don't believe that we are spiritual, and that a spiritual realm exists, and we move on when we die. they think this world and this body is all there is.


Yes i dont have such beleifs cause i dont see any verifiable evidence for any of that.!!!



do you think that would have an impact on your perspective regarding the trials of life?

Well... if i had you'r genes an the inviroment you esperienced i woud have the beleifs you have... an if you had my genes an the inviroment ive esperienced... you'r opinion on such maters woud be the sam as mine.!!!

[Skeptical]

Lori

You replied to my challenge with the free will counterargument.

How do you think free will comes into it when an innocent child dies in agony from an 'Act of God'?

[cluelusshusbund]

i think god want's an intelligent creation...

Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???

[Lori_7]

Lori

You replied to my challenge with the free will counterargument.

How do you think free will comes into it when an innocent child dies in agony from an 'Act of God'?

not directly no. but i imagine that when communion is restored with god, that he'll be able to protect us from things like that. perhaps we'll live in a place where things like that don't happen. the kingdom that's described at the end of the bible definitely sounds like a different place, but much of the bible is metaphorical, so it's hard to say. something that isn't metaphorical though is that we won't suffer or die.

but indirectly yes, because when we allowed sin into our bodies, it hindered our communion with god.

[Lori_7]

Esactly... God knew what Adam an Eve woud do even befor he created 'em cause he designed 'em to be inqusitive/to behave esactly the way they did... ie... he wanted 'em to eat the apple.!!!



You seem surprized that humans behave esactly the way they was designed to behave :shrug:



Well of course... do you thank God woud create humans in such a way that they woudnt behave how he wanted.???



Yes i dont have such beleifs cause i dont see any verifiable evidence for any of that.!!!



Well... if i had you'r genes an the inviroment you esperienced i woud have the beleifs you have... an if you had my genes an the inviroment ive esperienced... you'r opinion on such maters woud be the sam as mine.!!!

do you think that if adam and eve had any idea what the consequence of their act would be, that they would have eaten? i don't.

so now we know what the consequence is, and there are many of us who want to be redeemed, and will never make that mistake again.

[Lori_7]

Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???

i don't know.

[cluelusshusbund]

do you think that if adam and eve had any idea what the consequence of their act would be, that they would have eaten? i don't.

so now we know what the consequence is, and there are many of us who want to be redeemed, and will never make that mistake again.

So Adam an Eve was jus the set-up for the rest of Gods plan...
which is for som to be redeemed an for others to stay stuck in hell on earf.!!!

What caused you to have the God-beleifs you have... an why do you thank others such as myself dont have those beleifs.???



i think god want's an intelligent creation... ”


Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???


i don't know.

Didnt God choose how inteligent his creaton woud be.???

[Skeptical]

Lori said

"but indirectly yes, because when we allowed sin into our bodies, it hindered our communion with god."

You are describing the concept of original sin. This is an evil concept. When a new born baby comes into this world, that baby is innocent of any sin. You are suggesting that sins done by the baby's forebears now descend upon the baby.

The only kind of deity that would permit this is an evil god. Clueluss has asked you several times if your god is a monster. If you believe in original sin, then you must also believe your god is a monster.

[Doreen]

but indirectly yes, because when we allowed sin into our bodies, it hindered our communion with god.Almost every Christian for most of the history of Christianity would have considered your avatar sinful and not mildly. Were they all wrong? How do you know they were?

[Lori_7]

Lori said

"but indirectly yes, because when we allowed sin into our bodies, it hindered our communion with god."

You are describing the concept of original sin. This is an evil concept. When a new born baby comes into this world, that baby is innocent of any sin. You are suggesting that sins done by the baby's forebears now descend upon the baby.

The only kind of deity that would permit this is an evil god. Clueluss has asked you several times if your god is a monster. If you believe in original sin, then you must also believe your god is a monster.

i think sin is genetic.

and that parents have the greatest influence on their children usually.

and that we don't choose the world or the circumstance we're born into but, i see children growing up to leave legacies not unlike their forefathers. it's pandemic.

[Lori_7]

Almost every Christian for most of the history of Christianity would have considered your avatar sinful and not mildly. Were they all wrong? How do you know they were?

i espressed how i feel about that in the ramadan and women thread. pages 3 and 4.

[Lori_7]

So Adam an Eve was jus the set-up for the rest of Gods plan...
which is for som to be redeemed an for others to stay stuck in hell on earf.!!!

What caused you to have the God-beleifs you have... an why do you thank others such as myself dont have those beleifs.???

the holy spirit interacting with me.

some people don't want to know god clueless. would you, when you think he's a monster?




Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???



Didnt God choose how inteligent his creaton woud be.???

he's not done with us yet. thank god.

[cluelusshusbund]

the holy spirit interacting with me.

some people don't want to know god clueless. would you, when you think he's a monster?


Monster or not... if ther was evidence of this "God" i woud want to be made aware of it... so why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.???



i think god want's an intelligent creation... ” ”


Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???



i don't know. ”


Didnt God choose how inteligent his creaton woud be.???



he's not done with us yet. thank god.

oK... sinse God does activly control the level of inteligence humans have... he mus be pleased wit the level of inteligence we curently have... or do you thank God creates thangs he knows he wont be pleased wit.???

[Doreen]

i espressed how i feel about that in the ramadan and women thread. pages 3 and 4.OK. I read your posts on those pages. You say it is smart versus stupid men, but women Christians would also have thought your posting your own ass - I think - in underwear like this would be sinful. Also my question is not: why do you think it is OK?

But rather, given that you refer to sin interfering with communion with God and that the word sin in Christianity would have included what you are doing, what makes you think your interpretation of sin is correct and how did the Bible or Spirit fail for so long to get what you consider the right view through to Christians?

So the issue is not for me is Lori right or wrong on this issue. In fact I agree quite a bit with what you said in that thread on 3 and 4. The issue is more that you refer to sin as a Christian but must be defining this in ways that most Christians would differ with you on. How can that be? Why isn't the Bible clearer on this and other issues? Where does your certainty come from? The Bible suggests that a woman dress modestly and properly. Do you think your avatar falls under that description?

[Skeptical]

Lori

Your idea of sin is rather pathological. In fact, only about 10% of the human species can be considered to be genuinely 'sinful'. Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial.

And babies are born innocent. Sure, they may later develop into Dr. Crippen clones, but at birth they lack sin. Millions of these innocents die in great pain within a year of being born, from disease, famine, or natural disaster. All of these are "Acts of God." You cannot justify that as the act of a good God. If God exists, and is all powerful, then he must be evil.

Of course, if you are a bit flexible in your view of deity, the paradox disappears. If God is not, in fact, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, the contradictions will not exist.

[John99]

In fact, only about 10% of the human species can be considered to be genuinely 'sinful'. Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial.


You are contradicting yourself. In fact, that is a benchmark for contradiction.

I am not a big fan of the word "sin" and the word can be substituted for many things and they would signify the same thing. However, if we were to use it then there are different levels of sin. One can be simply telling a lie.


And babies are born innocent. Sure, they may later develop into Dr. Crippen clones, but at birth they lack sin. Millions of these innocents die in great pain within a year of being born, from disease, famine, or natural disaster. All of these are "Acts of God." You cannot justify that as the act of a good God. If God exists, and is all powerful, then he must be evil.

Of course babies are born innocent but they also have never done anything at all. They may die from great pain but they were also born from what some would consider great pain.

I dont understand your logic in that last sentence either. If a large tree branch falls and hits someone on the head and the are (obviously) in great pain and die hours later what does that mean? Surely not that the branch was evil.

Also, you need to remember that pain serves a purpose. Mainly telling the person in pain that there is a problem so it isnt something we can just eliminate.

[Lori_7]

Lori

Your idea of sin is rather pathological. In fact, only about 10% of the human species can be considered to be genuinely 'sinful'. Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial.

And babies are born innocent. Sure, they may later develop into Dr. Crippen clones, but at birth they lack sin. Millions of these innocents die in great pain within a year of being born, from disease, famine, or natural disaster. All of these are "Acts of God." You cannot justify that as the act of a good God. If God exists, and is all powerful, then he must be evil.

Of course, if you are a bit flexible in your view of deity, the paradox disappears. If God is not, in fact, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, the contradictions will not exist.

no sin is trivial. it actually compounds and snowballs over time and ends up with us in a mess like we are today. and we are 100% responsible for that. we are all afflicted. you have never been greedy? you have never been lustful? you have never been lazy? you have never been hateful? you have never felt lonely? you have never been sick? you are going to suffer and die.

sin causes disease. sin causes hunger. i don't know where you live but i live in the states, and i know damn well there is enough food to go around. sin causes death. even just a little bit causes death. it's an all or nothing situation.

which again, all points to genetics.

[Lori_7]

Monster or not... if ther was evidence of this "God" i woud want to be made aware of it... so why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.???

have you ever sincerely asked it to?




Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???



Didnt God choose how inteligent his creaton woud be.???



oK... sinse God does activly control the level of inteligence humans have... he mus be pleased wit the level of inteligence we curently have... or do you thank God creates thangs he knows he wont be pleased wit.???

i don't think god is surprised or displeased, i just don't think he's finished.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”


Lori
have you ever sincerely asked it to?


No... i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!!

Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.???
---------------

...sinse God does activly control the level of inteligence humans have... he mus be pleased wit the level of inteligence we curently have... or do you thank God creates thangs he knows he wont be pleased wit.??? ”



i don't think god is surprised or displeased, i just don't think he's finished.


But do you agree that our level of inteligence is determined by God.???

[Lori_7]

OK. I read your posts on those pages. You say it is smart versus stupid men, but women Christians would also have thought your posting your own ass - I think - in underwear like this would be sinful. Also my question is not: why do you think it is OK?

by "underwear like this", do you mean granny panties? ;)

it's nothing someone wouldn't see if they went to a swimming pool, or the beach, or the mall, or flipped on their tv, or watched a movie, or drove down the street.


But rather, given that you refer to sin interfering with communion with God and that the word sin in Christianity would have included what you are doing, what makes you think your interpretation of sin is correct and how did the Bible or Spirit fail for so long to get what you consider the right view through to Christians?

So the issue is not for me is Lori right or wrong on this issue. In fact I agree quite a bit with what you said in that thread on 3 and 4. The issue is more that you refer to sin as a Christian but must be defining this in ways that most Christians would differ with you on. How can that be? Why isn't the Bible clearer on this and other issues? Where does your certainty come from? The Bible suggests that a woman dress modestly and properly. Do you think your avatar falls under that description?

i honestly don't think the bible or the spirit have failed at all. i think some people claim to be christians, but don't know jesus at all. i think others know but are on different paths, and have learned different things.

i think the bible was written for a particular age of man. the age that he is fallen. but because of some things the spirit has done with me, my mind is somewhere else. i've already moved on in a lot of ways.

i used to wonder about sandy and christians like her, who justified their hate, and segregated themselves, and were so focused on their money and material wealth, and politics. i wondered, didn't they realize that none of those things would be a part of the kingdom? shouldn't their minds be on other things? moving forward?

the kingdom isn't going to be the same as it is here, and the people who inhabit it will not be the same. men will not lust after women there, ever, no matter what the women are wearing or aren't wearing. they will be more enlightened than that and more loving. this IS possible, and i'm tired of people not wanting to change.

my certainty comes from interactions with the spirit and what that's meant to me.

relevant music break...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ljHOSqc4A

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”



No... i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!!

well there you go.


Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.???

i didn't know, but i really wanted to know.
---------------


...sinse God does activly control the level of inteligence humans have... he mus be pleased wit the level of inteligence we curently have... or do you thank God creates thangs he knows he wont be pleased wit.??? ”



But do you agree that our level of inteligence is determined by God.???

i think free will plays a part, don't you? in the pursuit of education or knowledge, and in particular the knowledge of god? eh hem.

certainly you see people turn a blind eye and do the wrong thing all the time like i do, don't you?

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

...i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!! ”



well there you go.


Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.???



i didn't know, but i really wanted to know.


So did you sincerly ask the "spirit" to interact wit you befor you beleived the spirit esisted.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

...i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!! ”

why?




Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.???

no, that's why i asked.




So did you sincerly ask the "spirit" to interact wit you befor you beleived the spirit esisted.???

yeah. i said, "if you're real, you're going to have to prove it".

[Doreen]

by "underwear like this", do you mean granny panties? ;)They are underwear. They are not boxer shorts - iow that have their own non-body shape.


it's nothing someone wouldn't see if they went to a swimming pool, or the beach, or the mall, or flipped on their tv, or watched a movie, or drove down the street.They would not see it framed like that. The equivalent would be someone walking up to their beach chair with a frame that they place around their ass and then push their ass towards the person's face. See this, do not see the rest of me or something else.

Further your examples still do not explain how Christians for so many centuries could have gotten this so wrong.


i honestly don't think the bible or the spirit have failed at all. i think some people claim to be christians, but don't know jesus at all. So you know Jesus and what he would think was modest and proper attire and how the female body is to be presented and what you've done he would consider fine and he would judge their prudishness? And when the Bible says modest and proper attire it meant to include this.


i think the bible was written for a particular age of man. the age that he is fallen. but because of some things the spirit has done with me, my mind is somewhere else. i've already moved on in a lot of ways.So the Bible's values are not necessarily the current values of Spirit?

[Skeptical]

To John

Can you explain why you think I was contradicting myself?

Why do I call God evil? Because he/she/it is supposed to be omnipotent and still permits pain and hardship to fall upon those who do not deserve it. Do you really think all those people in Pakistan right now suffering terrible hunger due to the floods, are dreadful sinners who deserve it? What of those suffering who are less than a year old?

To Lori who thinks no sin is trivial.
I cannot but think you are way off the mark on this. I am human and have human desires. These are inbuilt and have no good or evil value. So I see a beautiful woman and think that it would be nice to have sex with her. That is a sin?? You gotta be kidding. That is just a perfectly natural reaction, without harm. I suspect that most good looking women are actually quite pleased by the fact that their beauty arouses male lust.

Likewise, if I am hungry and see another person getting stuck into a lovely meal and feel envious. That is no sin. It is just the natural response.

Have I never been lazy? Absolutely. All the time. I love my liesure. However, if you consider that a sin, I have to consider your value system to be way off from the truth. Again, this is a natural response. Humans are evolved to conserve energy. It can be called laziness, but is simply an adaptation to the fact that throughout most of history, conserving energy was pro-survival.

Have I been hateful? Perhaps. But never to the extent of harming anyone. This makes my hatefulness very trivial.

Feeling lonely or sick? Even the bible does not describe these as sins.

I repeat. Most people are essentially decent. Their sins, like mine, are trivial. Only a minority of humanity is sinful to any serious extent. I think you are exaggerating the importance of a whole bunch of trivialities.

[Lori_7]

To John

Can you explain why you think I was contradicting myself?

Why do I call God evil? Because he/she/it is supposed to be omnipotent and still permits pain and hardship to fall upon those who do not deserve it. Do you really think all those people in Pakistan right now suffering terrible hunger due to the floods, are dreadful sinners who deserve it? What of those suffering who are less than a year old?

To Lori who thinks no sin is trivial.
I cannot but think you are way off the mark on this. I am human and have human desires. These are inbuilt and have no good or evil value. So I see a beautiful woman and think that it would be nice to have sex with her. That is a sin?? You gotta be kidding. That is just a perfectly natural reaction, without harm. I suspect that most good looking women are actually quite pleased by the fact that their beauty arouses male lust.

Likewise, if I am hungry and see another person getting stuck into a lovely meal and feel envious. That is no sin. It is just the natural response.

Have I never been lazy? Absolutely. All the time. I love my liesure. However, if you consider that a sin, I have to consider your value system to be way off from the truth. Again, this is a natural response. Humans are evolved to conserve energy. It can be called laziness, but is simply an adaptation to the fact that throughout most of history, conserving energy was pro-survival.

Have I been hateful? Perhaps. But never to the extent of harming anyone. This makes my hatefulness very trivial.

Feeling lonely or sick? Even the bible does not describe these as sins.

I repeat. Most people are essentially decent. Their sins, like mine, are trivial. Only a minority of humanity is sinful to any serious extent. I think you are exaggerating the importance of a whole bunch of trivialities.

i'm sorry but what you're saying doesn't mesh with the world we all live in today.

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

...i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!! ” ”



why?


I havent seen any evidence that woud lead me to thank a "holey spirit" esists... or Wiches or devels... ect.!!!

“ Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.??? ”



no, that's why i asked.


“ So did you sincerly ask the "spirit" to interact wit you befor you beleived the spirit esisted.??? ”



yeah. i said, "if you're real, you're going to have to prove it".


Have you talked to other thangs you dont thank esists in a sincere way... such as tooth-faries Santa-Clause an Easter-Bunny to test if they realy do esist.???

[Lori_7]

They are underwear. They are not boxer shorts - iow that have their own non-body shape.

oh, god forbid.


They would not see it framed like that. The equivalent would be someone walking up to their beach chair with a frame that they place around their ass and then push their ass towards the person's face. [I] See this, do not see the rest of me or something else.

i've been there. in a lawn chair in front of woman wearing a thong. they frame it pretty well in movies and in billboards, and magazine advertisements. how about the advertisement for those butt-shaper athletic shoes?



Further your examples still do not explain how Christians for so many centuries could have gotten this so wrong.

people are stupid and evil. is this really news to you?


So you know Jesus and what he would think was modest and proper attire and how the female body is to be presented and what you've done he would consider fine and he would judge their prudishness? And when the Bible says modest and proper attire it meant to include this.

So the Bible's values are not necessarily the current values of Spirit?

i think jesus would rather us all run around naked and unashamed. but the bible deals with atonement for sin, in large part because we live in it. it also deals with the abolition of sin, which is what jesus is for.

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

...i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!! ” ”



I havent seen any evidence that woud lead me to thank a "holey spirit" esists... or Wiches or devels... ect.!!!

there are many things you could remain ignorant of if you don't seek. and why would you seek if you already have your mind made up?


“ Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.??? ”



“ So did you sincerly ask the "spirit" to interact wit you befor you beleived the spirit esisted.??? ”



Have you talked to other thangs you dont thank esists in a sincere way... such as tooth-faries Santa-Clause an Easter-Bunny to test if they realy do esist.???

no, my parents clued me in when i was younger. i was disappointed. :(

[John99]

To John
Can you explain why you think I was contradicting myself?


Well i dont understand what "genuinely sinful" is and then you went on to say "Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial." Is not "trivial" genuine?

Originally Posted by Skeptical
In fact, only about 10% of the human species can be considered to be genuinely 'sinful'. Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial.


Why do I call God evil? Because he/she/it is supposed to be omnipotent and still permits pain and hardship to fall upon those who do not deserve it. Do you really think all those people in Pakistan right now suffering terrible hunger due to the floods, are dreadful sinners who deserve it? What of those suffering who are less than a year old?

Acts of nature? Which is why i used the tree branch example.

[John99]

And for that matter (natural) child birth itself is very painful and pain is suffering.

[John99]

As i stated previously, without the ability to feel pain many people would die much sooner simlpy because they think everything is fine. How do you determine your appendix is going to kill you?

OR you have an infection in your sinuses that will one day effect your whole body and kill you?

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I havent seen any evidence that woud lead me to thank a "holey spirit" esists... or Wiches or devels... ect.!!! ”



there are many things you could remain ignorant of if you don't seek. and why would you seek if you already have your mind made up?


Have you talked to other thangs you dont thank esists in a sincere way... such as tooth-faries Santa-Clause an Easter-Bunny to test if they realy do esist.??? ”



no, my parents clued me in when i was younger. i was disappointed.


So you thank its a mistake that i wont sincerly talk to somptin i dont thank actualy esists... but you thank it makes sinse for you not to sincerly talk to thangs you dont thank esists... why is that.???

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I havent seen any evidence that woud lead me to thank a "holey spirit" esists... or Wiches or devels... ect.!!! ”



Have you talked to other thangs you dont thank esists in a sincere way... such as tooth-faries Santa-Clause an Easter-Bunny to test if they realy do esist.??? ”



So you thank its a mistake that i wont sincerly talk to somptin i dont thank actualy esists... but you thank it makes sinse for you not to sincerly talk to thangs you dont thank esists... why is that.???

well i don't think my parents were lying to me; that seems pretty obvious. do you think i'm lying to you?

[Skeptical]

To Lori

Re underwear.

I do not have a problem with the human body. If I see a photo of any part of any human body, it is not innately sinful, or unchristian or anything like that. Just natural. I do not care if it is male or female, or top or bottom, or even whether the body looks good or looks ugly. It is all just a part of being human.

However, I do have to question the good taste of your icon. What do you think of us, your debate partners, if you choose to communicate by pointing your arse at us?

Re sin.

You seem to have a hang up on this. This is common among Christians, but I consider it to be quite irrational. What does it matter that we have little quirks like feeling lust towards a good looking person of the opposite gender?

If someone takes that lust too far, and engages in rape, then that is very, very bad. However, the vast majority of us will never do anything like that. I am male, and normally sexed. I see some sexy woman, and inside I go "Whooooah!" So what? She does not know, and my actions and thoughts harm no-one. Nor does that harm me in any way.

If your god exists, and is that concerned about trivial sins, then I have no time for him/her/it. Lets get real, and worry about the things that really matter.

To John

You do not seem to appreciate the question. Why does God inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on innocents?

Now, I agree that if a branch falls on someone's head, that is just nature. But I am a religious non believer. In the same way, I agree that something like appendicitis pain performs a natural service. But that is a non religious view. What do the religious say? I am asking those who believe in a Christian god, why that omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god permits pain, suffering, and even torment to afflict those who have done nothing to deserve it?

[cluelusshusbund]

well i don't think my parents were lying to me; that seems pretty obvious. do you think i'm lying to you?

No im farely sure you'r bein sincere about you'r relatonship wit the holey-spirit... but i thank its about as likely to be true as a Easter-Bunny or Tooth-farey... but like you said:::

"there are many things you could remain ignorant of if you don't seek. and why would you seek if you already have your mind made up?"

But see.... because you have you'r mind made up about the Easter-Bunny you coud be remainin ignorant of its true esistence... i jus thank its funy that you refuse to reckinize you'r double standard... ie... you realize how silly it woud be to atempt to sincerly talk to a Easter-Bunny you dont beleive in... but you thank i shoud talk to a holey-spirit in which i dont have beleifs that it esists.!!!

[Gremmie]

To Lori

Re underwear.

I do not have a problem with the human body. If I see a photo of any part of any human body, it is not innately sinful, or unchristian or anything like that. Just natural. I do not care if it is male or female, or top or bottom, or even whether the body looks good or looks ugly. It is all just a part of being human.

However, I do have to question the good taste of your icon. What do you think of us, your debate partners, if you choose to communicate by pointing your arse at us?

Re sin.

You seem to have a hang up on this. This is common among Christians, but I consider it to be quite irrational. What does it matter that we have little quirks like feeling lust towards a good looking person of the opposite gender?

If someone takes that lust too far, and engages in rape, then that is very, very bad. However, the vast majority of us will never do anything like that. I am male, and normally sexed. I see some sexy woman, and inside I go "Whooooah!" So what? She does not know, and my actions and thoughts harm no-one. Nor does that harm me in any way.

If your god exists, and is that concerned about trivial sins, then I have no time for him/her/it. Lets get real, and worry about the things that really matter.

To John

You do not seem to appreciate the question. Why does God inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on innocents?

Now, I agree that if a branch falls on someone's head, that is just nature. But I am a religious non believer. In the same way, I agree that something like appendicitis pain performs a natural service. But that is a non religious view. What do the religious say? I am asking those who believe in a Christian god, why that omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god permits pain, suffering, and even torment to afflict those who have done nothing to deserve it?

Skeptical...

I hope you aren't expecting a "rational" answer to your question...

Because I'm sure you won't get one..

More than likely, you will get some Bible verses, and delusional responses..

But, good luck..

[John99]

To John
You do not seem to appreciate the question. Why does God inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on innocents?


First it is important to realize that i am an Agnostic and have been for as long as i was able to understand the concept. This is important because i am not gong to give you a Religious perspective. Agnostics go either way but as you may be aware it is not the same as Atheism. If you are asking me for absolutes in relation to "God" that is where is where some confusion may come in. I still dont understand the question you are asking either or why you would think an answer even exists that someone can rationally provide in the context you are asking it.

If a person is standing on a beach at the precise time a big wave comes and sucks them in killing them we have to understand that A: there are big waves and B: The person just happened to decide to walk down to the edge of the water at that same time.


I am asking those who believe in a Christian god, why that omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god permits pain, suffering, and even torment to afflict those who have done nothing to deserve it?

Well we agree that pain\suffering serves a medical purpose so we cannot just omit it. I put the slash between pain and suffering because arent they virtually the same thing? You have physical pain and emotional pain.

It is important to differentiate pain caused by nature and pain caused by another person too. A religious person accepts the notion of evil and an evil person, given your criteria of why would God allow this, would only infict pain and suffering on themselves...which is not particularly evil or evil at all and can be mental problems. So the answer is i really dont know. Not to mention that religious people do believe in an afterlife and this ties into it all because the "evil" person will suffer for eternity in the afterlife.

Unless he goes to prison and asks for forgiveness then MAYBE.

Edit: i understand what you are saying now.

[Lori_7]

To Lori

Re underwear.

I do not have a problem with the human body. If I see a photo of any part of any human body, it is not innately sinful, or unchristian or anything like that. Just natural. I do not care if it is male or female, or top or bottom, or even whether the body looks good or looks ugly. It is all just a part of being human.

THANK YOU.



However, I do have to question the good taste of your icon. What do you think of us, your debate partners, if you choose to communicate by pointing your arse at us?

don't be offended; it's not like that. i've been posting my face for years and not been received any better. :D

i'm just trying to make a point. it's a long story actually, but i thought it was one worth telling. i just wish some people would get the fuck over it, you know? like all of these pious religious people drowning in their sin. they're all so ashamed!


Re sin.

You seem to have a hang up on this. This is common among Christians, but I consider it to be quite irrational. What does it matter that we have little quirks like feeling lust towards a good looking person of the opposite gender?

If someone takes that lust too far, and engages in rape, then that is very, very bad. However, the vast majority of us will never do anything like that. I am male, and normally sexed. I see some sexy woman, and inside I go "Whooooah!" So what? She does not know, and my actions and thoughts harm no-one. Nor does that harm me in any way.

If your god exists, and is that concerned about trivial sins, then I have no time for him/her/it. Lets get real, and worry about the things that really matter.



i'm not talking about appreciating the beauty of the human body; i'm talking about appreciating the whole human. i'm talking about desiring sex with someone that you have (to your knowledge) no business having sex with.

i'm talking about thinking objectively, and not entertaining the desires of the flesh.

[Skeptical]

Lori said ;

"i'm talking about desiring sex with someone that you have (to your knowledge) no business having sex with."

I do not see the problem. I desire sex with lots of women. Even women I have never seen in the flesh. A film star in a movie I watch, maybe. So what? Desiring something is not the same as attacking or harming another human. I can desire a woman, and she will never, ever, find out that I lust after her. I will never even physically touch her. What is the harm?

If you believe in a god who created us with this lust in-built, and then condemns us for the fact that the lust is expressed, then I do not think much of your version of deity. He/she/it is not worth worrying about.

Sin is hurting other people(mostly). I am very sinful by your narrow definitions, but I never knowingly hurt other people. I regard myself as a good person. If you cannot see this, I mourn your narrowness of perception.

To John.

OK. I understand your agnosticism. Had I appreciated that earlier, I probably would have worded my replies differently. I am glad to see you now appreciate my point.

I also regard myself also as agnostic. I think of the Christian model of deity as highly unlikely, due to the innate contradictions. However, I am open to other models, if there is suitable evidence.

[Doreen]

oh, god forbid.Which is precisely what most Christians thought and probably most today think. I really don't care what you have as an avatar. I just don't understand your epistemology or if you are a Christian.


i've been there. in a lawn chair in front of woman wearing a thong. they frame it pretty well in movies and in billboards, and magazine advertisements. how about the advertisement for those butt-shaper athletic shoes? Which most Christians throughout history would have considered sinful. You are evading the issue.


people are stupid and evil. is this really news to you?So most Christians are evil and here it can be seen because they would judge you as not being modest and proper in attire as they have been instructed to judge by the Bible. How do you know their interpretation of modest and proper attire is incorrect and shows that they are evil?


i think jesus would rather us all run around naked and unashamed.
Something he did not do. How do you know this is the case? Wanna guess how adstar is going to weigh in on this issue?


but the bible deals with atonement for sin, in large part because we live in it. it also deals with the abolition of sin, which is what jesus is for.This is not relevent. When you put things in that are not relevent to the issue - in the same sentence, no less, with something that is relevent, it makes me wonder if you really understand the issue and/or if you are trying to cloud over the issue by raising irrelevent points. Sure, the NT deals with abolishing sin, especially as interpreted later. But this is not the issue. If you thought it was sinful to show your pantied ass in this way, you would not defend it, I assume. So you don't, as you've said, so raising the issue of the abolition of sin has nothing to do with the issue.

[Doreen]

To Lori

Re underwear.

I do not have a problem with the human body. If I see a photo of any part of any human body, it is not innately sinful, or unchristian or anything like that. Just natural. Just to be clear. I am not trying to convince lori or anyone else that her avatar is immoral. I am trying to get at how she knows this. She even goes so far as to respond that people are evil and stupid, when I raise the issue that most Christians in history would say she was being sinful - immodest and improper in attire. IOW the fact that they are evil and stupid - most Christians through history - and this can be seen, amongst other places, in their judging her behavior.

She also says that Jesus really wanted us to run around naked.

For me Lori's position raises epistemological issues. How the hell does she know all this? How can she blithely use the term 'sin' as a Christian, when her sense of what this word means has little to do with what Christians mean by the term?

And so on.

[Yosef]

There was the question about salvation in Islam. No one is going to enter paradise only by the good things that they do. It is all dependent on God's mercy. However, in order to win God's favor and blessings we need to believe in:

a. Him as the creator and sustainer
b. His prophets
c. His revelations
d. Angels
e. Day of judgment
f. Do the things we are asked to do: not tell lies, be moral, be humble, make good things, guide people to the straight path, like whatever good to our brothers / sisters as we like it happen to ourselves etc..
g. Do the prayers, fast the Ramadan, give money to the poor, pilgrimage to Mekka (for healthy people who can afford that).
h. reverence for the Lord is central

The path to God is pretty direct. But maybe Christianity is different..

As to Crucifixion God says in the Holy Quran:

"(156) (the Jews) and for their misbelief, and for their saying about Mary a mighty calumny, (157) and for their saying, 'Verily, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God'.... but they did not kill him, and they did not crucify him, but a similitude was made for them. And verily, those who differ about him are in doubt concerning him; they have no knowledge concerning him, but only follow an opinion. They did not kill him, for sure! (158) nay, God raised him up unto Himself; for God is mighty and wise! (159) And there shall not be one of the people of the Book but shall believe in him before his death; and on the day of judgment he shall be a witness against them." Holy Quran - The Women 4:156-159

As to use of Avatars. I have already expressed my opinion. I have nothing against anyone's body. People choose the Avatar they want on the forum. As for me, I am viewing the site without images. To do that you need Opera web browser > right-click the tool bar > click customize > buttons > browser view > drag the "show images" button to a preferred place on the tool bar > press OK > use the button when you need to browse without viewing images.

Particular images can be viewed individually by clicking on them by the right mouse button.

[cluelusshusbund]

I will speek for Lori until she gets bak wit you.!!!


I just don't understand your epistemology or if you are a Christian.


I thank Lori consideres herself in the Christan catigory in that som of the Holey Bible is corect an Jesus plays a very importent roll in Gods plan of reincarnation to the end gole of communion.!!!



How do you know their interpretation of modest and proper attire is incorrect and shows that they are evil?


Those who have a personal relatonship wit the Holey Spirit have knowledge about such thangs that others dont.!!!



When you put things in that are not relevent to the issue - in the same sentence, no less, with something that is relevent, it makes me wonder if you really understand the issue and/or if you are trying to cloud over the issue by raising irrelevent points.


Makes discussion a chalenge... dont it :)



Just to be clear. I am not trying to convince lori or anyone else that her avatar is immoral. I am trying to get at how she knows this.

IOW the fact that they are evil and stupid - most Christians through history - and this can be seen, amongst other places, in their judging her behavior.

She also says that Jesus really wanted us to run around naked.

For me Lori's position raises epistemological issues. How the hell does she know all this? How can she blithely use the term 'sin' as a Christian, when her sense of what this word means has little to do with what Christians mean by the term?


The Holey Spirit talks directly to Lori an knowledge is imparted to her... an besides... lots of people call themselfs "Christans" but they inturpet the Holey Bible diferently an have beleifs which ant in the Holey Bible... i dont see why Lori doin the sam thang is a prollem :scratchin:

[Lori_7]

Lori said ;

"i'm talking about desiring sex with someone that you have (to your knowledge) no business having sex with."

I do not see the problem. I desire sex with lots of women. Even women I have never seen in the flesh. A film star in a movie I watch, maybe. So what? Desiring something is not the same as attacking or harming another human. I can desire a woman, and she will never, ever, find out that I lust after her. I will never even physically touch her. What is the harm?

If you believe in a god who created us with this lust in-built, and then condemns us for the fact that the lust is expressed, then I do not think much of your version of deity. He/she/it is not worth worrying about.

Sin is hurting other people(mostly). I am very sinful by your narrow definitions, but I never knowingly hurt other people. I regard myself as a good person. If you cannot see this, I mourn your narrowness of perception.



you're not very sinful. you're not a little sinful. you're as sinful as i, and everyone else is. i also don't think you're any more of a good person than anyone else. we all have our justifications and rationalizations for the things we do. and i think all of us turn a blind eye to the consequences of our actions too. that way you make sure you're not knowingly hurting other people. seriously, if only 10% of mankind is hurting each other, then why is 100% of mankind hurting? they're hurting a lot.

i also don't think that "a genetic condition" is a very narrow definition of sin when the implications of that are all-encompassing and pandemic. it's a lot less narrow than designating some particular acts or thoughts as sinful, and the rest as good.

in regards to lust, it's this simple...what is the point of entertaining thoughts of something that is not correct, or practical, or good? it's entertaining a lie in your mind. a bad imagination. and i absolutely believe that what we think about manifests, whether intentionally or not. i believe our thoughts and desires are very powerful. i actually think they're prayers. but i don't think you have to be a christian to understand or realize that.

[Lori_7]

Which is precisely what most Christians thought and probably most today think. I really don't care what you have as an avatar. I just don't understand your epistemology or if you are a Christian.

well, if i was to reference some scripture, i would go back to genesis, where a big point is made by describing adam and eve as naked and unashamed before they fell, and ashamed and covering themselves, and hiding from god, after their fall.

and then i would refer to the biblical ideology that christ was sinless, and because of that, it's through him that we are redeemed, healed, and restored. the sin will be removed from our bodies once again one day, and that day may be tomorrow.


Which most Christians throughout history would have considered sinful. You are evading the issue.

i'm not evading the issue. it's pretty clear that i think they're projecting.

there's a difference between a woman taking off her clothes to appeal to the lusts of men, and a pediphile, or a rapist, enjoying the view at a public swimming pool.


So most Christians are evil and here it can be seen because they would judge you as not being modest and proper in attire as they have been instructed to judge by the Bible. How do you know their interpretation of modest and proper attire is incorrect and shows that they are evil?

the bible actually instructs us not to judge each other because we're all evil. none of us are good. perhaps that's why modest and proper attire is recommended. to try to compensate for that. i just feel like it's time to move on. so i'm protesting.


Something he did not do. How do you know this is the case? Wanna guess how adstar is going to weigh in on this issue?

because his whole purpose is to restore us to a state of sinlessness. jesus could look at my naked butt all day long and not be lustful.

i wouldn't feel comfortable guessing about adstar's opinion but we could ask him.


This is not relevent. When you put things in that are not relevent to the issue - in the same sentence, no less, with something that is relevent, it makes me wonder if you really understand the issue and/or if you are trying to cloud over the issue by raising irrelevent points. Sure, the NT deals with abolishing sin, especially as interpreted later. But this is not the issue. If you thought it was sinful to show your pantied ass in this way, you would not defend it, I assume. So you don't, as you've said, so raising the issue of the abolition of sin has nothing to do with the issue.

it is relevant because of some personal things that have happened to me, via the spirit. i happen to believe that the kingdom of christ is at hand, and so i haven't been able to keep from moving on mentally. i think there's a good reason for it, and i think there's a good reason for a lot of people to change their perspectives.

[Skeptical]

To Lori

About sin

You and I do not share the same concept here. I see things as right and wrong, rather than sinful or not sinful. Since I am not a religico, I do not see wrong as being wrong against some deity.

Wrong is doing something that harms another human. Simple.

In this sense, if I look at a woman with feelings of lust, that is simply a natural feeling expressing itself. As a normal, red blooded heterosexual guy, lust is the 'proper' response to the sight of a sexy woman. It does no harm, so is not wrong.

However, if that lust drives me to action that causes harm to someone, then that is wrong. I do not expect you to agree, since your views are so strongly influenced by religious superstition, and weird ideas of things being sinful even if they exist only within a person's mind.

You asked, what is the good of entertaining lustful thoughts? I amswer it in two ways.
1. It is not really a choice. It is a natural response.
2. It actually does do good. I read an article describing an experiment in which endorphin levels were measured in guys before and after seeing a beautiful woman. Endorphin levels rose, showing that the sight of a beautiful woman brings genuine pleasure.

Re my own 'goodness'.

I am not trying to make myself into anything special. I believe that 90% of the human species is essentially decent. This 90% is made up of good people who will not knowingly cause harm to others. They may commit minor wrongs - such as not telling a supermarket checkout operator that he/she has given too much change. However, nothing that can be called serious harm.

I am just one of that mob. Not especially good, but definitely not evil. I regard myself as an essential decent human, in the same class as 90% of humanity. Do you see this as an arrogant view?

[Doreen]

well, if i was to reference some scripture, i would go back to genesis, where a big point is made by describing adam and eve as naked and unashamed before they fell, and ashamed and covering themselves, and hiding from god, after their fall.and we are still after the Fall. Or are you, Lori, not affected by the eating of the fruit? Further, the NT includes the statement that women should dress modestly and properly.


and then i would refer to the biblical ideology that christ was sinless, and because of that, it's through him that we are redeemed, healed, and restored. the sin will be removed from our bodies once again one day, and that day may be tomorrow.Again, this is irrevelent. This would be true of murder, etc. also.


i'm not evading the issue. it's pretty clear that i think they're projecting.What portion of their own psyche are they projecting?


there's a difference between a woman taking off her clothes to appeal to the lusts of men, and a pediphile, or a rapist, enjoying the view at a public swimming pool.What does this have to do with the Biblical injunction for women to dress modestly and properly?


the bible actually instructs us not to judge each other because we're all evil. That is not what Christ said. And are you not judging those other Christians, who you have referred to as stupid and evil and now projecting? ARe you not judging them?


none of us are good. perhaps that's why modest and proper attire is recommended. to try to compensate for that. i just feel like it's time to move on. so i'm protesting.Actually I believe it was women who should dress like that. I believe men are instructed not to cross dress.


because his whole purpose is to restore us to a state of sinlessness. jesus could look at my naked butt all day long and not be lustful. That's the BS they tell us about the guy.

[Doreen]

I will speek for Lori until she gets bak wit you.!!!Ok, I'll play.


I thank Lori consideres herself in the Christan catigory in that som of the Holey Bible is corect an Jesus plays a very importent roll in Gods plan of reincarnation to the end gole of communion.!!!This would mean that the Spirit, which she claimed wrote the Bible - in another post to me - was only partially correct.


Those who have a personal relatonship wit the Holey Spirit have knowledge about such thangs that others dont.!!!Sure, but once you open that door 'Lori' it means that the Bible is simply another book and the key thing is to have this connection and surely there are other texts and sources of inspiration.



Makes discussion a chalenge... dont it :)Yes, not that I think she is conscious of what she is doing.


The Holey Spirit talks directly to Lori an knowledge is imparted to her... an besides... lots of people call themselfs "Christans" but they inturpet the Holey Bible diferently an have beleifs which ant in the Holey Bible... i dont see why Lori doin the sam thang is a prollem :scratchin:The problem I see with Lori's position is that the Bible is written by Spirit and is fallible. I don't think that is tenable. I also noted that Adstar and Lori bonded briefly around the coming rapture and the 144,000 good people who will be saved, each thinking they are one of these. However I will bet good money that very few people who think they are part of that 144,000 - who would tend to be fundamentalists - will appreciate Lori's butt shot and I doubt Adstar would. So something confusing is going on that I am trying repeatedly to move into her field of vision.

[NMSquirrel]

Sure, but once you open that door 'Lori' it means that the Bible is simply another book and the key thing is to have this connection and surely there are other texts and sources of inspiration.
don't fall into the trap of rating the bible either valid or invalid..there are valid things in there,even if there are invalid things in it..(i think its more of a 'things we don't understand' thing)..
ppl tend to see the bad and forget about the good..



The problem I see with Lori's position is that the Bible is written by Spirit and is fallible. I don't think that is tenable.
how so?..
the spirit talks to man..man translates it into something he can understand..man then communicates such thing to another. that person translates it into something they can understand..there are MANY oppertunities for it to get misstranslated, and that is how it can be fallible..IOW the spirit is not mistaken..its in the translation process that it gets screwed up..


I also noted that Adstar and Lori bonded briefly around the coming rapture and the 144,000 good people who will be saved, each thinking they are one of these.

current world population..6,865,726,953 (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html)
144000..thats 2.10 % of current world pop..
something aint right about it..yes i have read it in the bible..but the bible also says 'test ALL things'..and i bet 90% of the world pop say they are the 2%...


However I will bet good money that very few people who think they are part of that 144,000
90%

- who would tend to be fundamentalists -
maybe the 2%..

will appreciate Lori's butt shot
lori..your causing ppl to think about your butt..if that makes them an adulterer..what does that make you?

So something confusing is going on that I am trying repeatedly to move into her field of vision.
try flashing her...

[cluelusshusbund]

Ok, I'll play.

This would mean that the Spirit, which she claimed wrote the Bible - in another post to me - was only partially correct.


The the corect parts of the Holey Bible was inspired by the Holey-Spirit... the rong paarts was not inspired by the Holey Spirit.!!!
---------------------



Yes, not that I think she is conscious of what she is doing.


I disagree... i thank shes crazy like a crazy fox.!!!



I also noted that Adstar and Lori bonded briefly around the coming rapture and the 144,000 good people who will be saved, each thinking they are one of these.


Im 1 of 'em also :shrug:



However I will bet good money that very few people who think they are part of that 144,000 - who would tend to be fundamentalists - will appreciate Lori's butt shot and I doubt Adstar would. So something confusing is going on that I am trying repeatedly to move into her field of vision.

Well... the people who disagree wit Loris beleifs are rong... but they will have mor chanses to get it rite durin ther future reincarnations.!!!

[Doreen]

The the corect parts of the Holey Bible was inspired by the Holey-Spirit... the rong paarts was not inspired by the Holey Spirit.!!!Well, 'Lori', then saying Spirit wrote the Bible would be at best misleading.


I disagree... i thank shes crazy like a crazy fox.!!! Are you attracted to her or do you mean the canid?


Im 1 of 'em also :shrug:Well, when are we gonna see your ass?


Well... the people who disagree wit Loris beleifs are rong... but they will have mor chanses to get it rite durin ther future reincarnations.!!!Now you are just fibbing about her beliefs.

[Doreen]

don't fall into the trap of rating the bible either valid or invalid..there are valid things in there,even if there are invalid things in it..(i think its more of a 'things we don't understand' thing)..
ppl tend to see the bad and forget about the good..I'm not falling into a trap, I am just trying to get a handle on Lori's beliefs.


how so?..
the spirit talks to man..man translates it into something he can understand..man then communicates such thing to another. that person translates it into something they can understand..there are MANY oppertunities for it to get misstranslated, and that is how it can be fallible..IOW the spirit is not mistaken..its in the translation process that it gets screwed up..But she said, in a post elsewhere, that Spirit wrote the Bible. IOW made it through all these fallible humans.



current world population..6,865,726,953 (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html)
144000..thats 2.10 % of current world pop..
something aint right about it..yes i have read it in the bible..but the bible also says 'test ALL things'..and i bet 90% of the world pop say they are the 2%...I think you need to check your math. It's less than that.


try flashing her...hey, if Jesus wants us all to run around naked as she says, flashers are holy men. Except they tend to become rapists and sexual assaulters

but other than that.

[Lori_7]

To Lori

About sin

You and I do not share the same concept here. I see things as right and wrong, rather than sinful or not sinful. Since I am not a religico, I do not see wrong as being wrong against some deity.

Wrong is doing something that harms another human. Simple.

In this sense, if I look at a woman with feelings of lust, that is simply a natural feeling expressing itself. As a normal, red blooded heterosexual guy, lust is the 'proper' response to the sight of a sexy woman. It does no harm, so is not wrong.

However, if that lust drives me to action that causes harm to someone, then that is wrong. I do not expect you to agree, since your views are so strongly influenced by religious superstition, and weird ideas of things being sinful even if they exist only within a person's mind.

You asked, what is the good of entertaining lustful thoughts? I amswer it in two ways.
1. It is not really a choice. It is a natural response.
2. It actually does do good. I read an article describing an experiment in which endorphin levels were measured in guys before and after seeing a beautiful woman. Endorphin levels rose, showing that the sight of a beautiful woman brings genuine pleasure.

Re my own 'goodness'.

I am not trying to make myself into anything special. I believe that 90% of the human species is essentially decent. This 90% is made up of good people who will not knowingly cause harm to others. They may commit minor wrongs - such as not telling a supermarket checkout operator that he/she has given too much change. However, nothing that can be called serious harm.

I am just one of that mob. Not especially good, but definitely not evil. I regard myself as an essential decent human, in the same class as 90% of humanity. Do you see this as an arrogant view?

imo, there is a difference between appreciating beauty and lust. do you think so?

i wouldn't call your view arrogant. i would call it normal...mainstream.

[Doreen]

imo, there is a difference between appreciating beauty and lust. do you think so?

i wouldn't call your view arrogant. i would call it normal...mainstream.

What the heck is wrong with lust?
A definition of lust might keep us from going to far astray.

[cluelusshusbund]

Well, 'Lori', then saying Spirit wrote the Bible would be at best misleading.


Not at all... her answr jus needed clarifyin.!!!



Well, when are we gonna see your ass?


"we" wont... that woud be a sin.!!!



Now you are just fibbing about her beliefs.

No... but the mos wonderful thang about beleifs is... they dont need no stinkin evidence.!!!

[Doreen]

Not at all... her answr jus needed clarifyin.!!!
You mean like the Bible did, I guess. Like 'the Bible is true', but it needs clarifyin'. OK, that works for me.


"we" wont... that woud be a sin.!!!I am taking this to mean that aesthetic qualities determine if something is a sin, rather than moral considerations.


No... but the mos wonderful thang about beleifs is... they dont need no stinkin evidence.!!!Hard to get through a day working with only what's got evidence, let alone fancy ass enough evidence to convince others.

Unless you are simply referring to scat.

[Lori_7]

and we are still after the Fall. Or are you, Lori, not affected by the eating of the fruit? Further, the NT includes the statement that women should dress modestly and properly.

no, i'm sure i'm 87 kinds of wrong, but that's no reason not to try.


Again, this is irrevelent. This would be true of murder, etc. also.
What portion of their own psyche are they projecting?

does that mean it's ok to murder, citing the excuse that you're fallen and jesus is going to fix it all someday? no, that's not how it works. it is relevant when sin is the disease, and while religion may help to treat the symptoms, christ is the cure.

their lust.


What does this have to do with the Biblical injunction for women to dress modestly and properly?

because while i don't work in some sleazy strip joint encouraging lustful men, i do like to go swimming and go to the beach.


That is not what Christ said. And are you not judging those other Christians, who you have referred to as stupid and evil and now projecting? ARe you not judging them?

"judge ye not lest ye be judged" and the repeated statement that all of us fall way short of the glory of god, that we're all sinners, and none of us are good, is from the bible. so basically it says that we're all stupid and evil because we're sinners.


Actually I believe it was women who should dress like that. I believe men are instructed not to cross dress.

that's so funny. it just is.


That's the BS they tell us about the guy.

i don't think it's BS. i actually think it's something to aspire to.

[Lori_7]

just to clarify about the 144,000...those are the last that shall be first. that is, those who have the seal of god in the very last days of this age, and will be the first to enter the kingdom in the first 1000 years of the new age. after that, the first that shall be last will be brought in as well.

[Lori_7]

No im farely sure you'r bein sincere about you'r relatonship wit the holey-spirit... but i thank its about as likely to be true as a Easter-Bunny or Tooth-farey... but like you said:::

"there are many things you could remain ignorant of if you don't seek. and why would you seek if you already have your mind made up?"

But see.... because you have you'r mind made up about the Easter-Bunny you coud be remainin ignorant of its true esistence... i jus thank its funy that you refuse to reckinize you'r double standard... ie... you realize how silly it woud be to atempt to sincerly talk to a Easter-Bunny you dont beleive in... but you thank i shoud talk to a holey-spirit in which i dont have beleifs that it esists.!!!

ok. but just for the record, i don't think that's a good analogy. ;)

[cluelusshusbund]

Hard to get through a day working with only what's got evidence, let alone fancy ass enough evidence to convince others.


Well thers no evidence that its true... so is that good enuff to convince you to beleive in reincarnation like Lori does.???

[Doreen]

no, i'm sure i'm 87 kinds of wrong, but that's no reason not to try.sidestepping the issue.


does that mean it's ok to murder, citing the excuse that you're fallen and jesus is going to fix it all someday? no, that's not how it works. Of course I know that. That was my point. So you bring up this absolving issue and it implies that dressing in certain ways is something that might be absolved. But you don't say this. You don't say how it relates the way you dress as opposed to what is in the Bible.

It comes off like you want to imply something, but not actually say it
OR
things just pop into your mind so you write them even though they are not connected.


it is relevant when sin is the disease, and while religion may help to treat the symptoms, christ is the cure.This has nothing to do with the issue. If it does, then it means that you consider your attire sinful. But clearly you don't.


because while i don't work in some sleazy strip joint encouraging lustful men, i do like to go swimming and go to the beach.One can be sleazy and encourage lust in just about any attire. In Timothy it talks about the clothes, not how the person acts. It seems obvious you don't think this part of the Bible applies to you, but you don't say this, you respond as if other issues are on the table.


"judge ye not lest ye be judged" and the repeated statement that all of us fall way short of the glory of god, that we're all sinners, and none of us are good, is from the bible. so basically it says that we're all stupid and evil because we're sinners.Ah, but when I said that most Christians would disagree with you on the clothing issue, you said they were stupid and evil. IOW you explained your difference of opinion with them by labeling them evil and stupid. You judged them.


that's so funny. it just is.Sure parts of the Bible are funny.


i don't think it's BS. i actually think it's something to aspire to.you aspire not to feel lust. How sad, but that's your choice of course. If you are married, have you told your husband?

[Lori_7]

What the heck is wrong with lust?
A definition of lust might keep us from going to far astray.

yeah, i think that many people confuse lust with an appreciation. imo, lust is a degradation. i have no idea what the definition is in our dictionary, but the way i see it, lust does not take a whole human being into account. nor does it take into account whether it is appropriate or not to have a sexual desire for someone. iow, i think we can all agree that it's a bad idea to have sex with anyone and everyone you find physically attractive, and it's a bad idea to completely ignore any and all other attributes of that person. so my question is, why think about people in those terms, if those terms are not correct?

taking myself as an example, i have absolutely no problem at all, looking at a man, who is naked and very beautiful looking, and having no desire to have sex with him.

why? because imo, physical beauty is not something to base a sexual desire on.

i mean, it can be a factor. for example, many times a person's physical appearance is an indicator of how healthy they are on the inside, that is mentally and emotionally, perhaps spiritually. but sometimes it's not. and you can't tell just by looking at someone. you actually have to get to know the whole person.

[cluelusshusbund]

you aspire not to feel lust. How sad, but that's your choice of course. If you are married, have you told your husband?

Unlike som... Lori seems interested in avoidin HELL.!!!

Matt. v. 28
"Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

[Lori_7]

Unlike som... Lori seems interested in avoidin HELL.!!!

Matt. v. 28
"Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

honestly, it just doesn't make sense to me to be lustful. i think it's irrational.