It seems like government workers get better pay and benefits than private sector workers because they have unions which they use to manipulate the politicans into giving them what they want. Is it fair for this to be happening?
What's unfair about it? If it is unfair, isn't it unfair that people form "corporations" and then negotiate with the government collectively? Because people bargain collectively (in labor unions or in corporations), they get better contract terms than they would otherwise. It seems to me that the problem isn't collective action, the problem is money influencing politics, and, any way you look at it, there are first amendment issues.
who has a union, can you name names and provide citation. And many businesses have unions. I have nothing for or against unions, ideally unions present employee problems and corperations present what solutions can be arranged for those problems and still make viable profit, they agree all is good, unfortunately problems occur. 1. Strike/Stonewall : union and cooperation do not agree. Example Writers strike. Can cause strikes and business shut down or employees are forced to live with unsustainable or unpalatable employment wages or benefits. In the writers strike the writers eventually returned to work without gaining anything for getting paid for programing provided over the net, assuming that the future of tv will be Internet broadcasting, eventually writers simply won't make enough or will have to live by far lower means. 2. Weak Cooperations: Corporations that give too much to employees that they effect profit. Example: GM. Can cause corporation bankruptcy. GM simply could not continue to provide their employees with the wages and health benefits the US standard of living and world most expensive health care demand. Choosing against risking more workers strikes, GM was forced cut corners and produce ever crappier products and hedge the market, when economics and oil prices cause car buyers to shift for the high mpg cars that were also cheaper because they were made by labor in countries with poorer standards of living, GM flopped. As a result GM's death was caused by many factors, certainly employees not realizing their jobs were worth far less then they thought was one. 3. Weak Unions: Corporations that manipulate the union leaders or worse forbid unionizing. Example: Walmart. Walmart has done all it can to prevent employees from unionizing, as a result Walmart can pay employees less and often provide no benefits. Ideally a corporation would provide for all cooperate needs and complaints internally but many corporations lack that kind of unbiasedness these days. I think of the good old days, I think if Leroy Grumman and Jack Swirbul of Grumman Aircrafts: during WW2 they were renown for their respect and sense of responsibility for their employees. Not only did grumman manage to stave off unionizing by keeping their employees appeased directly but also managed half the turn-over rates of other aircraft companies thus cutting on the price of training, and managed higher profit margins. This probably came about because both started out as blue collar workers and both often worked the factor floors while being CEOs, thus generating a loves and respect for their employees as well as employees could raise complaints and needs directly on a peer to peer basis and they would listen and generate response that appeased employees. When employees got sick, it was only the best medicine for their employees, when employees need rides, they made a incorperate pickup service to pick up employees from their homes, When there was not enough turkeys for the Christmas turkey give off (because every employee gets a free turkey for christmass without question!) they arranged for eggs to be purchase and turkeys raised on company grounds! Unfortunately we don't have those kinds of interactions, Many cooperations have become too top heavy, there is a significant disconnect between employees and the corporation leaders, CEO are driven by increasing profit margins and stock options rather then simply maintaining a corporation and as such worker quality often suffers, worse still the CEO do their vary best to fight the unions or even prevent unionization. Unions on the other hand have shrunk and monopolize and have become pseudo-corporations of their own right with bribed or corrupt leaders which feed off employee union fees. Once unions were simply organizations of employees with who elected an employee as leaders or negotiators and were non-profit entities, but now many unions lack all of those qualities. With the Internet the possibility of mass cheap unionizing and direct communication with CEO could alleviate these problems, but our present mind sets don't seem to allow for that.
So would you say that people should not have freedom of association, if they associate into unions? Or that unions should be prohibited from trying to negotiate on behalf og their members? Did you agree with the Citizen's United opinion of Supreme Court that unions have a first amendment right to spend as much money as they want in support of political campaigns?
when was the last time the union did anyone any good? Considering the laws that are in place, the unions are just for coddling slacker crybabies.
No. Name one unionized corporation that allows managers to review employees based on their performance and then tie their pay and longevity into said reviews? Exhibit "A" as to why government and unionized corporations run like shit. People love the blame management, but managers have next to NO authority to deal with crappy employees when unions stewards and union contracts prohibit managing poor behavior. I live in a rust belt with thousands of retired Ford, Chrysler, GM, LTV Steel and other former unionized employees who all have stories of how the entire operation was dominated by work stoppages, lazy and un-fireable employees and distant, cold management. My father being one of them. He spent his adult life working for LTV/Mittal and has nothing but horror stories of how unions stoppages caused more issues than they were worth. My current employer has a "no unions" policy, as in: we'd shut down all operations in an area, board up the buildings, rip them down, and put an Indian graveyard in its place before allowing a union to tread upon the property. I've worked for two unionized corporations (UPS and Costco) and have seen what it does. Every single one of my Costco employees were untouchable. They each earned good wages, and only half of them deserved it. Performance counselings were next to non-existent. My worst marketer would clock in and go out to the "field" but spend the day at home. When she turned in no results for thirty days, I had to "move" her to another position. After petitioning to be moved back, I was required to do so, only to have her fail again resulting in a move back to the old position, to begin the cycle again. She was utterly useless, and thus brought morale down because all the real workers saw that she did nothing, and therefore justified them doing nothing. Government employees are even worse. When's the last time you heard of a government employee being fired, specifically, for poor performance? When have you ever heard of "quality initiatives" at a unionized workplace that were enforces BOTH with the carrot and the stick. I don't know if you all are aware of this, but some people don't work hard because it's the right thing to do. Many, if not about half, do so because of the threat of losing their job. Performance terminations in unionized workplaces don't. The USPS and various Ohio government employees all have protection against termination and are granted insane pensions at our expense and therefore are encouraged to save ZILCH for their own retirement. Wonderful. ~String
There are problems with unionized civil servants already. Imagine the Army having a union, what would happen when their contract ran out during a war?
Unions are democracy in the work place. Why should employees submit to the whims of one dictatorial CEO? They need to be represented.
Fuck No! Unionized workers destroyed many US companies and are currently pushing both the federal and many state governments into bankruptcy. I might also add that I'm a former union member (UFCW) and the union never did crap for me. All the union did was take its dues, and protect incompetent employees. Once in a while some union fat cats would come around wearing expensive suits looking like they'd never worked a day in their lives. I had far more respect for management which actually worked for its money than those union leeches.
sadly i actually expecred the coments made by string and mad. unions exist to balance power between employers and employees which is why managers dont like them, however they are a right under the international convention on civil and political righrs
As I said, I hated the union when I was in it! It did nothing for me but suck off a portion of my income. The only people that seemed to benefit from it were union bosses and incompetent employees, alcoholics, etc.
"International"......international laws are illegitimate. Anyway... Unions are good, in my opinion, because they can protect employees from exploitation.........HOWEVER, they shouldn't be given lobbying power. Just look at the nightmare in the public education department, with the teachers' union.
yes because you never benifited from the 40 hour week, 4 weeks paid holidays, sick leave, long service leave, decent wages, OH&S protections and compensation ect. goverments didnt come with these protections on there own and employers didnt give them out of the goodness of there hearts. just look at employee conditions that existed in Marx's time and during the great depression. employees were just lined up and selected, when they got injured through employer negligence or were sick or to old to work they were just thrown on the scrap heep. it was unions who fought for these rights and protections
Isn't that what I kinda said? The unions are valuable as representatives of workers. But to be honest, you do paint the picture black and white. There are plenty of decent companies that treat their employees well. Look at Costco. Furthermore, the Great Depression is a special topic. Work was limited, and businesses weren't exactly booming.............they couldn't hire many people. And since many people needed jobs, the only choice was to hire more people and pay them less, or hire less people and pay them more, but people needed jobs. So they had to be hired for cheap. It was a depression, after all.
There you are right. You can't just let them go on strike. It would be like having unionized police and firefighters, and would lead to work stoppages and cities being burned down while being looted. Oh wait, most city police and firefighters are unionized, and that doesn't happen, oh well... What we should do is force them by law not to talk to their fellow employees about working conditions ever (since that can lead to work stoppages and slow downs even without a union), that way we can pay them low wages and let them know that we value their service, but only to the extent of lip service. It's the American way. At the same time, we, the taxpayers, get the benefit of collectively bargaining, since that is what the government is--a collective action mechanism. Why are these things fair when used against labor, but when labor organizes and uses precisely the same tactic people become outraged? The tactic used to your benefit when dealing with government workers is--oh noes!!111!--being used by the workers. The sky is falling.
norse i was responding to mad but anyway on your 2 posts. firstly unions have to have the same abilities to loby as employers do. anything less entrenches the power imbalance, you think employers would have lobyed for industrial manslaughter laws which held negligent employers to criminal acount for the deaths they caused? on the great depression (and the global finantial crisis to be honest) who do you think caused it and there for who should suffer for it? certainly not the min wage workers who ended up living in tents in the center of the cities
40 hour work week? Pffft. I worked my way thru school often holding more than one job at once and going to school full time. And running my own business also requires more than 40 hours per week. I'm not a government employee. I"ve never had 4 weeks paid holiday even when I was an employee. Now, since I'm self employed, if I don't work, I don't get paid. same deal. Not even sure what that is, so I doubt I've ever benefited from it When I worked for the union shop I later transfered to a different location when I went away to college. The location at the college was a nonunion shop. Geuss what? I was paid exactly the same. The unions may have done some good once upon a time, but since then they've done far more harm then good.
