To all Muslims, I have a question for you. What makes Mohammed better than Jesus?

Are you serious???

LOL! :D

Go for the kill my muslim buddies

his dad can beat up your dad!

Originally posted by jcarl
To all Muslims, I have a question for you. What makes Mohammed better than Jesus? The "Rumble in the Jungle."

His explosive personality, maybe!

I'm really glad our userids are anonymous.

Originally posted by Vienna
Are you serious???

LOL! :D

Go for the kill my muslim buddies

I like to know what other people think/what leads people to think and/or believe certain things. What I want to know is what convinces Muslims that Mohammed is superior to Jesus.

" Knowing the other and knowing oneself,
In a hundred battles no danger"-Sun Tzu

Well at least we know Mohammed actually lived, we can't say the same thing for JC.

How do you know?

There is doubt???

Originally posted by jcarl
I like to know what other people think/what leads people to think and/or believe certain things. What I want to know is what convinces Muslims that Mohammed is superior to Jesus.
Basically there is no difference to Christians belief in Jesus than Muslims belief in Mohammed, its all a matter of choice and preference.

It has everything to do with what your parents believed.

Originally posted by Cris
There is doubt???

The point is that is you don't believe that Jesus existed, yet you except that Mohammed existed. So I ask you why? I'm not saying that i believe that Mohammed didn't exist(it had to start somewhere) but if you doubt one person's then why not show the same skepticism toward all?

originally posted by Vienna
Basically there is no difference to Christians belief in Jesus than Muslims belief in Mohammed, its all a matter of choice and preference.
Just in my opinion, that is an enormous generalization.

Jcarl,

The point is that is you don't believe that Jesus existed, yet you except that Mohammed existed. So I ask you why?There are significant eye witness accounts for M but there is no equivalent evidence for J.

…if you doubt one person's then why not show the same skepticism toward all?My doubt is not arbitrary, there is evidence for one but not the other.

Not a Mualim, but I just want to tell you about what I think.

He is not better than Jesus, neither is Jesus better than Mohammed. We are all created equal. And it is who is greater than who question that had separated us and cause many of the world's problems. What's the point in all this, we are all one afterall.

Originally posted by jcarl
Just in my opinion, that is an enormous generalization.
LOL! :D But it is very true.....

Originally posted by Cris
Jcarl,

There are significant eye witness accounts for M but there is no equivalent evidence for J.

First off, can you point me to some references. Secondly, what makes these eye witness accounts credible? Did someone follow Mohammed with a pen/pad taking down everything he did? By the way some people think on this forum, that would be the only way to prove somebody existed.

Originally posted by Hevene

He is not better than Jesus, neither is Jesus better than Mohammed. We are all created equal. And it is who is greater than who question that had separated us and cause many of the world's problems. What's the point in all this, we are all one afterall.

There can only be one truth. Anything contrary to that truth is not truth. If what Mohammed teaches is truth, then what Jesus, Buddha, et al must be false, and vice versa. We are equally created, but we are not equal from then on.

Originally posted by spidergoat
It has everything to do with what your parents believed.

That may be true to a degree, but how does that explain how people of one religion are converted to another?

People can still make individual choices, but I think it is significant that most people who were brought up to believe something actually do. It is a form of mental violence to brainwash your children into believing the same things you do.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hevene
[B]Not a Mualim, but I just want to tell you about what I think.

He is not better than Jesus, neither is Jesus better than Mohammed. We are all created equal. And it is who is greater than who question that had separated us and cause many of the world's problems. What's the point in all this, we are all one afterall.
----------
M*W: Hey, I really like you! Keep up the posts!

There can only be one truth. Anything contrary to that truth is not truth. If what Mohammed teaches is truth, then what Jesus, Buddha, et al must be false, and vice versa. We are equally created, but we are not equal from then on. Don't Muslims(someone get me on this, very limited knowledge here) believe in Jesus too, just that he wasn't the Messiah, he was just another prophet? That would make them about even, I'd think. One's teachings were put into practice by one group, and the other got another group.

Originally posted by jcarl
There can only be one truth. Anything contrary to that truth is not truthSuch a narrow definition will not serve. Concepts can by contradictory yet true. The Sun is an enemy to the man dying of thirst in the desert but a friend to those caught in the depths of winter. Light both a particle and a wave. An electron may be in more than one place at a time. Reality is not constrained by our conceptions. How much less so must God be?

~Raithere

I should have known that truth thing bring the discussion even more on a tangent. I'll give my spill, and if anyone wants to go all out on this then lets take it to the Gen. Philosophy forum.

Originally posted by Raithere
Such a narrow definition will not serve. Concepts can by contradictory yet true. The Sun is an enemy to the man dying of thirst in the desert but a friend to those caught in the depths of winter.

The enemy/friend personality of the sun is relative to the situation and understood within the context.

Light both a particle and a wave. An electron may be in more than one place at a time. Reality is not constrained by our conceptions. How much less so must God be?

I'm not going say anything right now(I left my Chemistry book at school) about light and electrons b/c I don't know enought about them. However Truth corresponds to reality. Our conceptions of it[truth] can be right or wrong, but that has no weight on whether something is true or not.

Originally posted by Gifted
Don't Muslims(someone get me on this, very limited knowledge here) believe in Jesus too, just that he wasn't the Messiah, he was just another prophet?

If Jesus is not Messiah, then he is a liar, a lunatic, and not worthy to be called a prophet.

I should have known that truth thing bring the discussion even more on a tangent. I'll give my spill, and if anyone wants to go all out on this then lets take it to the Gen. Philosophy forum.

Originally posted by Raithere
Such a narrow definition will not serve. Concepts can by contradictory yet true. The Sun is an enemy to the man dying of thirst in the desert but a friend to those caught in the depths of winter.

The enemy/friend personality of the sun is relative to the situation and understood within the context.

Light both a particle and a wave. An electron may be in more than one place at a time. Reality is not constrained by our conceptions. How much less so must God be?

I'm not going say anything right now(I left my Chemistry book at school) about light and electrons b/c I don't know enought about them. However Truth corresponds to reality. Our conceptions of it[truth] can be right or wrong, but that has no weight on whether something is true or not.

Originally posted by Gifted
Don't Muslims(someone get me on this, very limited knowledge here) believe in Jesus too, just that he wasn't the Messiah, he was just another prophet?

If Jesus is not Messiah, then he is a liar, a lunatic, and not worthy to be called a prophet. He is either Lord of all or nothing at all.

Originally posted by jcarl There can only be one truth. Anything contrary to that truth is not truth. If what Mohammed teaches is truth, then what Jesus, Buddha, et al must be false, and vice versa. We are equally created, but we are not equal from then on.
There is only one truth, but people with insufficient understanding misread the truth and then pass down from one generation to another and so on, then the truth gets changed, ie the interpretation of it etc etc. If you look at the teaching of Jesus, Buddha etc, there are lots of similarities, plus the bits and pieces added in by us to create fear, control and so on.


Originally posted by spidergoat
People can still make individual choices, but I think it is significant that most people who were brought up to believe something actually do. It is a form of mental violence to brainwash your children into believing the same things you do.
Yep, children immitate their elders, so whatever we do, they will observe and think if it's ok for my parents to do that, then it must mean that it's ok for me to do them too. So we see history kept on repeating itself.

Jcarl,

First off, can you point me to some references. Secondly, what makes these eye witness accounts credible? Did someone follow Mohammed with a pen/pad taking down everything he did? By the way some people think on this forum, that would be the only way to prove somebody existed.There are many references on the web to appropriate biographies. Unlike Buddha and JC, where there is little to no historical evidence, Mohammed is one of the best documented historical religious figures.

But even if M somehow did not exist it really doesn’t matter. M was a messenger and although Muslims revere him, it is his message that was important and not the man himself. The issue with JC is quite different since it is essential for him to have existed if Christianity is to be credible. It is claimed he is God and was physically resurrected and became the savior of the human race through that event. Well now we have somewhat of a massive problem if he didn’t actually exist as a man, since a nonexistent man could not have been resurrected and hence no savior.

We would think that for probably the most important man in the history of mankind there should be little doubt that he actually existed, but Christians cannot point to any independent and reliable evidence that shows that Jesus actually existed and did any of the things claimed in the bible. And there have been some credible analyses recently that explore these claims and conclude that JC is most likely pure myth. Try “The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S” and “The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty”.

As to the question of who is better then let’s look at their messages –

M – Struggle and absolute submission to Allah.
J – Love me or go to hell.

The M message suits tyrannical regimes very well since it encourages submission to authority and hence makes the mullahs extremely powerful.

The J message simply encourages submission by threats and fear, and again allows tyrannical regimes to exercise control.

It is no coincidence that both religions suit the needs of tyranny since both religions were designed by such men at times when tyrannical political power and physical threats were the primary forces that controlled the world in ancient times.

Neither message has any value to the people of today, so M and J are equally bad as each other.

hello everyone! i'm new here, so welcome me :)

anyway, to get to the topic of the post, I think you've just simply worded your question wrong jcarl. Muslims do not believe Muhammad (peace & blessings be upon him) is "better" than Jesus (peace be upon him). We are taught to believe in all of the prophets, including Jesus (pbuh), Abraham (pbuh), Moses(pbuh) .. and to give them equal respect & acknowledgment, because they were ALL prophets of Allah. Muhammad (pbuh) was the LAST prophet of Allah, that is the major diff betw him and Jesus, & since he was the LAST prophet, with him, he brought the LAST revelation, which is the Quran, which is the FINAL revelation, which is what we follow.

Hi Miss Khan, welcome.

AsalaamU Alaikum.:)

walaikum asalam :)

Originally posted by spidergoat
his dad can beat up your dad!

my god can beat up your god!

Originally posted by jcarl
If Jesus is not Messiah, then he is a liar, a lunatic, and not worthy to be called a prophet.

Correction, you are the liar, lunatic, and not worthy to fill your own tiny shoes.

Jesus said:
Matt 19
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Jesus never that he is anything but a prophet, a light ray send by god to show us the way. WHich is basically the same thing that Moses Said, Mohammed said, Jacob said, Abraham said, ect.....Believe only in GOD and keep the commandments. Wittness the words of Jesus by following god, not by idolating the messanger....But why would you understand such a basic concept, you're not a believer, just a man made roman catholic corrupted so called christ follower.

Flores,

Jesus never said that he is anything but a prophet,That seems to be about the only thing that isn't claimed of him. You are simply wrong – try this -

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

Originally posted by Cris
Flores,

That seems to be about the only thing that isn't claimed of him. You are simply wrong – try this -

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

And the usual dillemma, your interpretation contradicts with mine by about 180 degrees......And too bad, we can't bring back the dead Jesus who you claim said those things that I claim means something up to clear us for good........Can we perhaps reach some wisdom out of this dillemma? Should I open perhaps another thread about why religion should be a private thing.

Flores,

And the usual dillemma, your interpretation contradicts with mine by about 180 degrees......And too bad,The article seems clear – there is little interpretation needed – Jesus has to be God and it seems the statements that are claimed he made leaves no doubt.

we can't bring back the dead Jesus Especially since he probably never existed.

who you claim said those things They are not my claims, the extracts are directly from the bible. These are very clear Christian claims. For Christians it is essential that Jesus is God since how else can anyone other than God save mankind. If he was just a prophet then Christianity has no meaning. Which of course is part of the Islamic message, right?

Can we perhaps reach some wisdom out of this dillemma? Should I open perhaps another thread about why religion should be a private thing.If any religion has any degree of truth then its tenets cannot be open to free and personal interpretation as if truth could be determined by a popular vote.

Islam believes it has the one true religion but can coexist with Christianity if Jesus was only a prophet, but this is inconsistent with the basic tenet of Christianity, i.e. that Jesus is God and the savior of mankind. Clearly it is inconceivable that he could be merely a prophet. Christainity also claims that the only way to God is through a belief in Jesus as the savior, and clearly Muslims do not believe that.

The net result is that Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed to each other. Either one could be true, or both could be false, but they can’t both be true.

Originally posted by Cris
Jcarl,

There are many references on the web to appropriate biographies. Unlike Buddha and JC, where there is little to no historical evidence, Mohammed is one of the best documented historical religious figures.

We would think that for probably the most important man in the history of mankind there should be little doubt that he actually existed, but Christians cannot point to any independent and reliable evidence

How bout the Koran. That's about as independent as you can get. In the Surah IV:157 it talks that Jesus wasn't dead but feigned it when he was put in the tomb. Now that is a flawed argument(on several fronts) but the point is that they, not believing that he is who he said he was, puts Jesus in their Holy Book. If Jesus hadn't existed, do you think that mohammed would have gone through the trouble of making an argument that an event in Christ's life was feigned. Had Jesus not existed, then surely Mohammed would have made note of that.

Some others, Lucian, the Roman satirist. "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day-the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account."


As to the question of who is better then let’s look at their messages –

M – Struggle and absolute submission to Allah.
J – Love me or go to hell.

Jesus gave all of us a choice to believe in him or not. We were sentenced to die, he gave us a shot at a pardon, and now the ball is in our court. What we do is up to us. We reject the pardon, then God simply says "thy will be done."

It is no coincidence that both religions suit the needs of tyranny since both religions were designed by such men at times when tyrannical political power and physical threats were the primary forces that controlled the world in ancient times.

Is it tyrannical to give punishment to someone who commited a crime?

The net result is that Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed to each other. but they can’t both be true.

Couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by miss Khan
Muslims do not believe Muhammad (peace & blessings be upon him) is "better" than Jesus (peace be upon him). We are taught to believe in all of the prophets, including Jesus (pbuh), Abraham (pbuh), Moses(pbuh) .. and to give them equal respect & acknowledgment, because they were ALL prophets of Allah.

So then Jesus is a prophet. But he claimed to be the sun of God. Therefore, he is a liar if he is just a prophet. I don't know about you, but I'm not really one for respecting a liar.

Originally posted by Flores
Jesus said:
Matt 19
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

What Jesus is saying here is that he is either all or nothing at all. He is either the son of God or NOT a good man, since he would then be a story-teller.

But why would you understand such a basic concept, you're not a believer, just a man made roman catholic corrupted so called christ follower.

I'm sorry didn't think that you knew me. I am Baptist and thus I am not Catholic and indeed have several problems with Catholic doctrine. So next time you try slap a label on somebody, make sure the sticky side lands on them and not you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jcarl

Could you please explain "Son Of God", you used it quite frequently, what exactly Son of God means?, was a seeded by God in Mariam? Did God came as human and had sex with Mariam? Why you keep saying that he was a Son Of God? Please provide me with some refrences in this regard. Thank you in advance.

Jcarl,

If Jesus hadn't existed, do you think that mohammed would have gone through the trouble of making an argument that an event in Christ's life was feigned. Had Jesus not existed, then surely Mohammed would have made note of that.The earliest manuscripts of the Koran are dated at 750CE and the Christian mythology was well established by that time. The Koran simply took earlier lies and made new ones.

Some others, Lucian, the Roman satirist. "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day-the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account."LOL. Lucian wasn’t born until at least 100 years after Jesus alleged crucifixion. He isn’t offering historical evidence; he is repeating the myth spread by Christians. But your point does reflect the general quality of Christian claims for Jesus historicity.

Jesus gave all of us a choice to believe in him or not. But the strategy used is one of terrorism; the terror and fear of HELL.

We were sentenced to die, Another evil aspect of Christianity; convince the victims that they are somehow bad and there is no hope unless they submit to the tyranny of Christianity.

he gave us a shot at a pardon, This myth attempts to convince innocent people that death is not the end but a gateway to paradise. Probably the greatest evil possible – the effective brainwashing that convinces vulnerable people that the ultimate bad – death – is the best thing that could happen to them.

and now the ball is in our court. And hopefully rational people can see the Christian fraud for what it is.

What we do is up to us. We reject the pardon, then God simply says "thy will be done."Like I said – Christianity is just full of terror and threats of violence. An absurd and childish religion.

Is it tyrannical to give punishment to someone who committed a crime?But there was no crime. Mankind has evolved form simpler lifeforms, and is only guilty of being alive. The only crime is that told in the fairy story of Adam and Eve and even there they were tricked by a deceitful god. And since everyone knows that the story of Adam and Eve is just a fable then so must the resultant need for a savior. Jesus is just another fairy story designed to frighten unwitting and gullible people.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jcarl
[B]I should have known that truth thing bring the discussion even more on a tangent. I'll give my spill, and if anyone wants to go all out on this then lets take it to the Gen. Philosophy forum.

The enemy/friend personality of the sun is relative to the situation and understood within the context.

I'm not going say anything right now(I left my Chemistry book at school) about light and electrons b/c I don't know enought about them. However Truth corresponds to reality. Our conceptions of it[truth] can be right or wrong, but that has no weight on whether something is true or not.

If Jesus is not Messiah, then he is a liar, a lunatic, and not worthy to be called a prophet.
----------
M*W: Jesus was not the Messiah. A fictional character cannot be a liar unless the story is written that way. Jesus was not the lunatic, Paul was. Jesus was only a prophet and nothing more, even in the myth. He died for no one because he didn't exist.

Originally posted by jcarl
I should have known that truth thing bring the discussion even more on a tangent. I'll give my spill, and if anyone wants to go all out on this then lets take it to the Gen. Philosophy forum.I don't believe that it is tangential. In fact, I consider it central to the underlying assumptions in your initial question. There are any number of problems with the initial question but inquiring as to what makes Mohammed 'better' than Jesus or vice versa forces a false dilemma. You're also forcing a literal analysis of a subject (God) that, by definition, cannot be literal.


I'm not going say anything right now(I left my Chemistry book at school) about light and electrons b/c I don't know enought about them. However Truth corresponds to reality. Our conceptions of it[truth] can be right or wrong, but that has no weight on whether something is true or not. I would suggest Physics as Chemistry uses an outdated, though still useful, model. The problem here is one of epistemology and whether one can know, in an absolute sense, anything about reality much less that which is supposed to transcend reality. Current theory and evidence suggests that such knowledge is impossible, that there is a level of indeterminacy that intrinsic to the very nature of existence, at a primary level there is no true or false.

~Raithere

Originally posted by Cris
Jcarl,

LOL. Lucian wasn’t born until at least 100 years after Jesus alleged crucifixion. He isn’t offering historical evidence; he is repeating the myth spread by Christians. But your point does reflect the general quality of Christian claims for Jesus historicity.

If Christ hadn't been real, then wouldn't he have had some knowledge of such a fallacy that would have been Christianity.

Yet another evidence of Christ: A pagan named Thallus attempted to argue that the darkness occuring during Christ's death was natural. This man, whose idea was preserved by Julius Africanus, seemed to take the existence of Christ for granted. The denial of Christ's existence is never occurred to even the opponents of 1st Century Christians.

But the strategy used is one of terrorism; the terror and fear of HELL.

In first grade some of us were told that if we were good, we'd get a little prize/candy/whatever. Now did everyone behave well? No, and those got separated from the group, detention, on the fence, et all. Those who did behave in a correct manner were rewarded by candy, recess, etc. Why should God be any different than the teacher?

Another evil aspect of Christianity; convince the victims that they are somehow bad and there is no hope unless they submit to the tyranny of Christianity.

I'll leave you to the assumption that Christianity is somehow in the ranks of Sadaam and Hitler. But we all on an electric chair that is death. Likewise we are all given the pardon. Some will accept it, some will not.

Are we as humans bad? I think that we will all agree that we have at least once done something morally wrong in our lives. I believe that we all are infected with the disease of sin. The only way we can do that is to die(the wages of sin is death). But, we have a savior in Christ, who was the sacrificial lamb for all of us. , who died that we might have life more abundantly.

This myth attempts to convince innocent people that death is not the end but a gateway to paradise. Probably the greatest evil possible – the effective brainwashing that convinces vulnerable people that the ultimate bad – death – is the best thing that could happen to them.

Death is the turning in of a test paper. What we have done during the test is what will determine our score. Some will pass because they knew the answers. Others will not pass because the correct answer seemed to easy.

only guilty of being alive.

We are guilty for what we have done in our lives, guilty meaning responsible for our actions.

The only crime is that told in the fairy story of Adam and Eve and even there they were tricked by a deceitful god. And since everyone knows that the story of Adam and Eve is just a fable then so must the resultant need for a savior. Jesus is just another fairy story designed to frighten unwitting and gullible people.

Tell me, would the story of Adam and Eve be the only time in history in which people did wrong? I should say not. Look at the Crusades. The plundering, senseless killing, and utter violence(from both sides) were indeed a great sin(I personally think that those who committed these crimes in the name of Christianity(or more appropriately Christendom) will be held responsible come the end times, provided that they were even saved at all.

Originally posted by MW
M*W: Jesus was not the Messiah. A fictional character cannot be a liar unless the story is written that way. Jesus was not the lunatic, Paul was. Jesus was only a prophet and nothing more, even in the myth. He died for no one because he didn't exist.

So then you are sayign that Paul somehow started a religion on the foundation of a nonexistent person. How then did Chrisianity get off the ground?

Originally posted by Markx
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jcarl

Could you please explain "Son Of God", you used it quite frequently, what exactly Son of God means?, was a seeded by God in Mariam? Did God came as human and had sex with Mariam? Why you keep saying that he was a Son Of God? Please provide me with some refrences in this regard. Thank you in advance.

It's hard to explain Son of God w/o getting into the trinity deal. There are three Aspects of One God.
-"There are three eternal distinctions in one divine Essence, we Distinguish among the persons, but we do not divide the substance"-Systematic Theology by Theissen(all quotes will come from here, for brevity purposes)
-"All three, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are God, are equal in power, glory...but The Holy Ghost and Son, are voluntarily subordinate to The Father in terms of order."
-"Jesus Surrendered the exercise of his divine attributes
-This explains why Jesus prayed to the Father when he was a man.
-As to how Mary was seeded with Jesus, I don't think anybody knows for sure how. Just let it suffice that Jesus was created not in the normal way. God allowed Mary to become pregnant, no sex required. How? His ways are not our ways, so no one can really knows.
-Essentially The Son of God is the essence of God with all his{God's} powers, yet in a man's body. He is the bridge between Holy God and Unholy Man. Does that answer your questions?

Originally posted by Raithere
I don't believe that it is tangential. In fact, I consider it central to the underlying assumptions in your initial question. There are any number of problems with the initial question but inquiring as to what makes Mohammed 'better' than Jesus or vice versa forces a false dilemma. You're also forcing a literal analysis of a subject (God) that, by definition, cannot be literal.

God is above all. Therefore no one can be above God. Also, God is not self-contradictory. Then that means that only one person can be manifestation of the true God. Now I would like to know what Muslims think that makes Mohammed ahad of Jesus. Someone said a while back that what makes Mohammed "above" Jesus is that he gave the final revelation. Is that the only reason? What the Prophet Jesus gives is contradictory to what Mohammed gives. That being said what convinces you[muslims] that the Final Revelation is true Revelation?

Originally posted by jcarl
God is above all.
And you are quite right!

But you are wasting your time with your argument on these boards son. You will only find either Atheists or Muslims here and they both hate Christianity. All the hate in the world will never see the truth.

There can only be one truth. Anything contrary to that truth is not truth. If what Mohammed teaches is truth, then what Jesus, Buddha, et al must be false, and vice versa. We are equally created, but we are not equal from then on.

Three people can teach three different things, that are all true. Different truths can exist simontaneously. There can be different truths, that are all true. It isn't linear where this is either right or this is wrong. And..how exactly are we equally created? Equal means the same or identical.

Originally posted by Vienna
And you are quite right!

But you are wasting your time with your argument on these boards son. You will only find either Atheists or Muslims here and they both hate Christianity. All the hate in the world will never see the truth.

**God is above all**

Since when did muslims believe other wise?

Originally posted by skywalker
**God is above all**

Since when did muslims believe other wise?
*Yawn* :rolleyes:

Bait not taken :D

Originally posted by Vienna
And you are quite right!

But you are wasting your time with your argument on these boards son. You will only find either Atheists or Muslims here and they both hate Christianity. All the hate in the world will never see the truth.

What the Bible tells us to do is to cast seed. Indeed, spreading seed here is like spreading it in Manhattan. But, I am commanded to spread it b/c there is a chance, albeit small, that someone will read this, and that it will be the gateway to them accpeting Christ.

Originally posted by jcarl
God is above all. Therefore no one can be above God.That's a rather ambiguous definition of god, it doesn't really explain anything about god.

Also, God is not self-contradictory.And you know this how?

Then that means that only one person can be manifestation of the true God.Sorry, but the conclusion is unwarranted. Nothing you have said so far demonstrates this. If god is infinite and omnipotent it might manifest itself in an infinite variety of ways.

~Raithere

Originally posted by Raithere
That's a rather ambiguous definition of god, it doesn't really explain anything about god.

In your opinion what would explain something about God. To say that he is above all is ambiguous? How?

And you know this how? Sorry, but the conclusion is unwarranted. Nothing you have said so far demonstrates this.

Can you demostrate otherwise?

[/B]Three people can teach three different things, that are all true.[/B]

When has this happened?

Originally posted by jcarl
In your opinion what would explain something about God.I don't find that god is explicable in human terms, any defined concept falls short of infinite and anything finite is not god. The logic is rather simple: If anything exists which is not god then that exists which is greater than god (i.e. god + not-god) and that must be god.

To say that he is above all is ambiguous? How?What does 'above all' mean in context? Do you mean 'more powerful', 'primary to', 'has authority over', all of the above, or something else? Additionally, separating god from its 'creation' limits god and introduces again the problem I explained above.

Can you demostrate otherwise?Frankly, I don't need to, I'm not making the claim. But if god is omnipotent then what would limit it from manifesting itself in any number of ways? Where and how are you going to limit god to one expression of itself?

Perhaps god is the true expression of all religion but manifests itself appropriate to the culture and the sophistication of the people it reveals itself to. If there are many ways to think about or express the nature of the sun, rain, or a tree how many more ways should there be to express the nature of something as vast as god?

~Raithere

Originally posted by jcarl
What the Bible tells us to do is to cast seed. Indeed, spreading seed here is like spreading it in Manhattan. But, I am commanded to spread it b/c there is a chance, albeit small, that someone will read this, and that it will be the gateway to them accpeting Christ.
And you're doing a great job, but without results - apart from the usual tripe found from the usual punters of these boards.

God did not ask you to do the impossible. But you are doing this by trying to educate pork. Your wise words are too precious to be wasted on the ignorant heathens here. They are evil and will try to wind you up just for fun, they don't care less about the message you have.

You can lead a horse to water.

Originally posted by Raithere
I don't find that god is explicable in human terms, any defined concept falls short of infinite and anything finite is not god. The logic is rather simple: If anything exists which is not god then that exists which is greater than god (i.e. god + not-god) and that must be god.

Every thing is less than God, otherwise God wouldn't be God as such. God needs nothing to added to Himself, for the same reason. And he is all sufficient in Himself; for once again the same reason. Therefore your presumption that God plus something less than God IS God is false. Adding finite things to infinite things doesn't make the infinite thing more infinite.

What does 'above all' mean in context? Do you mean 'more powerful', 'primary to', 'has authority over', all of the above, or something else? Additionally, separating god from its 'creation' limits god and introduces again the problem I explained above.

All of the above. And God's prescence is everywhere.

Frankly, I don't need to, I'm not making the claim. But if god is omnipotent then what would limit it from manifesting itself in any number of ways? Where and how are you going to limit god to one expression of itself?

Perhaps god is the true expression of all religion but manifests itself appropriate to the culture and the sophistication of the people it reveals itself to. If there are many ways to think about or express the nature of the sun, rain, or a tree how many more ways should there be to express the nature of something as vast as god?

God cannot manifest Himself outside of his pefections, He cannot manifest Himself outside of who He truly is. Otherwise he wouldn't He wouldn't be worthy of worship.

Originally posted by Vienna
And you're doing a great job, but without results - apart from the usual tripe found from the usual punters of these boards.


Results is the Holy Spirit's work, not mine.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jcarl
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M*W: I read your post, but it doesn't make sense to me. You said, "Every thing is less than God, otherwise God wouldn't be God as such."

Given God's omnipotence, how could creation be inferior to the creator? What purpose would God have in creating an inferior humanity? We are still in the process of creation (i.e. evolution). We've come a long way from the amoeba to where we are today.
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M*W: You said, "God needs nothing to added to Himself, for the same reason. And he is all sufficient in Himself; for once again the same reason. Therefore your presumption that God plus something less than God IS God is false. Adding finite things to infinite things doesn't make the infinite thing more infinite."

Humanity is not "adding" anything to its creator. Humanity is the creator. God plus the human race is not equal to a lesser God or a greater human race. The human race is equal to God. God is the human race.
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M*W: You said, "And God's prescence is everywhere. God cannot manifest Himself outside of his pefections, He cannot manifest Himself outside of who He truly is. Otherwise he wouldn't He wouldn't be worthy of worship."

If God is omnipotent, why do you think God "cannot manifest himself outside of who he truly is?" And if you believe God created you, yet you believe the human race is inferior, are you saying that God created you as some kind of sick joke?

If God "cannot manifest himself outside of his "perfections" (perfect creation?), "otherwise he wouldn't be be worthy of worship." It sure sounds like you are demeaning the omnipotence of God! You fail to see that not only did God create humanity, God dwells within humanity. The Creator = Humanity--Humanity = God. The way God is manifested in his perfect creation is through the eternal fire of the spirit. Atomic energy, heat, light, passion, love is how God is manifested throughout creation and carried by the human race across the face of the Earth. This is my God. It sounds as if your God has played a trick on you.

So then Jesus is a prophet. But he claimed to be the sun of God. Therefore, he is a liar if he is just a prophet. I don't know about you, but I'm not really one for respecting a liar.

This is where you are WRONGG!!! He NEVER claimed to be the son of God. Christianity made that up. Jesus (pbuh) came down like all the other prophets to teach the Oneness of God and to teach that God has NO partners (such as a son). Giving partners to God as you do, sayiing Jesus is the son of God (astighfirallah) is an UNFORGIVABLE sin in Islam.

He never NEVER said he was anything but a MESSENGER from God. This does not make him any more or less special than another MESSENGER --- Muhammad (pbuh)

what is so difficult to understand about this???? Jesus was a MAN! NOT A GOD!

The whole belief of God even having a son --- doesnt it sound pagan even to your ears?? How is it possible that you, & i deem you to be intelligent, can believe in it??!!

You will only find either Atheists or Muslims here and they both hate Christianity. All the hate in the world will never see the truth.

Muslims do not hate Christianity. It's all in your head.

But of course, its perfectly Ok, that u being a righteous Christian & all, hate atheism & Islam.

But even if M somehow did not exist it really doesn’t matter. M was a messenger and although Muslims revere him, it is his message that was important and not the man himself. The issue with JC is quite different since it is essential for him to have existed if Christianity is to be credible. It is claimed he is God and was physically resurrected and became the savior of the human race through that event.

Exactly. Christians give too much importance to Jesus. What you are doing is man-worship & you do not even realize it.
Hence, your original question-- how could Muslims not likewise be madly in love with Jesus & accept Muhammad as the last messenger? You are blinded by your infatuation with A MAN, and have forgotten what is a thousand million times more important-- God.

Do you realize that the Bible/Christianity as a religion was not even documented or written down until hundreds of years after Jesus? I am sure this is not news for you. How can you not see then, that CHANGES have been made to the original message of Jesus. He only preached in the ONENESS, I repeat the ONENESS of God, as did all the other messengers including Muhammad (pbuh).

Originally posted by miss khan
Muslims do not hate Christianity. It's all in your head.

But of course, its perfectly Ok, that u being a righteous Christian & all, hate atheism & Islam.
Hello Missy

Most muslims on these boards hate Christianity, take this recent post I recieved from one of your muslim buddies:

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Pathetic uncircumcized animal,, when you quote what I write, quote the WHOLE sentence, this is what I wrote:

''Islam ,unlike christianity, is a realistic religion, if you hit me and insulted me as a muslim, then I will hit you back, this is what my great religion told me to do, ISLAM TAUGHT US NOT TO REWARD AGGRESSORS AND KILLERS, ISLAM TAUGHT US TO CRUSH THEM SO THAT PEACE CAN PREVAIL ON EARTH.''

I was talking about killers and aggressors....got it Mr. ass ?

This person is a muslim writing about Christianity and yes I really do believe that he hates Christianity. These aggressive posts from muslims are common so when I say that muslims hate Christianity - I have every reason to believe it.

Atheists hate anything Christian - fact.

I am very sorry to see a Muslim debating about religion in such a crude manner. My religion teachers otherwise:

Invite [all] to the Way of your Rabb with wisdom and beautiful preaching ... (Qur'an 16:125)

(Rabb is one of the names of Allah. It simply means Lord.)

my apologies on his behalf..

Originally posted by miss khan
This is where you are WRONGG!!! He NEVER claimed to be the son of God. Christianity made that up. Jesus (pbuh) came down like all the other prophets to teach the Oneness of God and to teach that God has NO partners (such as a son). Giving partners to God as you do, sayiing Jesus is the son of God (astighfirallah) is an UNFORGIVABLE sin in Islam.

He never NEVER said he was anything but a MESSENGER from God. This does not make him any more or less special than another MESSENGER --- Muhammad (pbuh)

what is so difficult to understand about this???? Jesus was a MAN! NOT A GOD!

Miss Khan,
Now take a deep breath. you say that Christ didn't claim to be the Son of God. A)Have you searched this out yourself and found it to be true?

B)You didn't read this entire thread. Otherwise you would have read Chris's post(who if you can't figure it out, is as unchristian as I am christian).

Try this site, this was the link, Cris brought up. I didn't.

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

And Jesus was not a God. He is part of THE Trinity, which are the three inseparable aspects of one God.

how could Muslims not likewise be madly in love with Jesus & accept Muhammad as the last messenger?

That wasn't my original question. I wanted to know why you guys put Mohammed in higher esteem than Jesus.

Do you realize that the Bible/Christianity as a religion was not even documented or written down until hundreds of years after Jesus? I am sure this is not news for you. How can you not see then, that CHANGES have been made to the original message of Jesus

Do you have evidence of this? Were you there? That would be the only way to prove that Jesus said something other than what Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John say he said.

Originally posted by miss khan
Christians give too much importance to Jesus.
Now who do you think put the Christ in Christianity - Jesus did -Yaaay! :)

What you are doing is man-worship & you do not even realize it.
Jesus is the Son of God, how can you confuse this?
You are blinded by your infatuation with A MAN, and have forgotten what is a thousand million times more important-- God.
You must be confusing yourself with some other Faith. Christians believe in God. By the way, ever heard of the Trinity?

Do you realize that the Bible/Christianity as a religion was not even documented or written down until hundreds of years after Jesus? I am sure this is not news for you. How can you not see then, that CHANGES have been made to the original message of Jesus. He only preached in the ONENESS, I repeat the ONENESS of God, as did all the other messengers including Muhammad (pbuh).
Ah, I see. Preaching Islam now are we.

Sorry dear, you can hardly compare a common man with the Son of God - no contest. I think your attempts are admirable as your argument is so very weak.

:)

Originally posted by jcarl
To all Muslims, I have a question for you. What makes Mohammed better than Jesus?
what makes jesus better thsn mohammed?
mate, what a stupid simple question! why do you want to know thinking about joining a relgion, or are you giving muslims shit? because if you are giving it to them, then that is not a very christian thing to do.

Originally posted by Jolly Rodger
what makes jesus better thsn mohammed?
Jesus was the Son of God, mohammed wasn't.

mate, what a stupid simple question!
And it was simple to answer wasn't it. :)

Originally posted by Vienna
Jesus was the Son of God, mohammed wasn't.


And it was simple to answer wasn't it. :)

hey i am christian dont get me wrong i just dont think it is write to question other peoples beliefs, after all someone could say in reply to you last message, mohammed is god and jesus wasn't his son. i dont believe that but it is a hard point to argue so go suck a dick you dumb fuck

Originally posted by Jolly Rodger
hey i am christian
so go suck a dick you dumb fuck
I see.

May peace be with you. Now fuck off. :D

In answer to all of you:

Jesus was NOT the son of God. Plain. Very simple.

He was a human corporeal person, who ate and drank, voided, slept. He was a child, grew into a man. A created being can not be eternal.
If Jesus was God, how did he suffer at the hands of humans, his own creation? How did he suffer being crucified? How was your God frightened of the Jews?? According to Christian beliefs, the Jews killed Christ/God. So you're telling me that the Jews-humans, killed God, the Master of the Universe? What happend to this world, while God was temporarily dead?
And was not Jesus a worshipper of God? umm, he worshipped himself then? There is zero logic in the trinity.

Originally posted by miss khan
In answer to all of you:

Jesus was NOT the son of God. Plain. Very simple.

He was a human corporeal person, who ate and drank, voided, slept. He was a child, grew into a man. A created being can not be eternal.
If Jesus was God, how did he suffer at the hands of humans, his own creation? How did he suffer being crucified? How was your God frightened of the Jews?? According to Christian beliefs, the Jews killed Christ/God. So you're telling me that the Jews-humans, killed God, the Master of the Universe? What happend to this world, while God was temporarily dead?
And was not Jesus a worshipper of God? umm, he worshipped himself then? There is zero logic in the trinity.

you have a really poor understanding of christianity, you really dont have any idea what your talking about. thats like me saying to a budist, hey if budah was so smart why was he a fat cunt?

no wait i just asked a question it would be more like, budah was stupid because he was fat

you have a really poor understanding of christianity, you really dont have any idea what your talking about. thats like me saying to a budist, hey if budah was so smart why was he a fat cunt?

So educate me. Can you explain to me rationally, logically, how you can believe that Jesus was the son of God?

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jcarl
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M*W: I read your post, but it doesn't make sense to me. You said, "Every thing is less than God, otherwise God wouldn't be God as such."

Given God's omnipotence, how could creation be inferior to the creator? What purpose would God have in creating an inferior humanity?

Why make us inferior? Why would God make us as his equal? And it creation could be inferior to the creator(the carbuilder makes the car but that doesn't make the car his equal.)

Humanity is not "adding" anything to its creator. Humanity is the creator. God plus the human race is not equal to a lesser God or a greater human race. The human race is equal to God. God is the human race.

Then how did we create ourselves? obviously you believe in Evolution(which would also say that God doesn't exist), then wouldn't you argue that our existence is based on natural selection, et al not on ourselves?

If God is omnipotent, why do you think God "cannot manifest himself outside of who he truly is?" And if you believe God created you, yet you believe the human race is inferior, are you saying that God created you as some kind of sick joke?

God can do everything within his perfection, meaning that he cannot sin, be unjust, ignorance, etc. It can be better stated that God is "limited" by the fact that he can't have limits. A sick joke? No...God gave us life that he may love us, and that we may have fellowship with him.

If God "cannot manifest himself outside of his "perfections" (perfect creation?), "otherwise he wouldn't be be worthy of worship." It sure sounds like you are demeaning the omnipotence of God!

By perfections, I mean God is limited by the fact that he has no limits. He can not be finite, weak, naive, etc. I really don't know how else to explain it.

You fail to see that not only did God create humanity, God dwells within humanity. The Creator = Humanity--Humanity = God.

Going back to the Evolution thing which you profess. If this is indeed true, then can you point out to me an animal with morality?

Originally posted by miss khan
So educate me. Can you explain to me rationally, logically, how you can believe that Jesus was the son of God?
Hello miss khan

To understand the fact that Jesus is the son of God you first have to grasp an understanding of the Trinity.

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God.

The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.

It is so much simpler and more beautiful to believe in one God alone, Who alone holds power over all things, and does not need to be broken up into parts to be understood.

Originally posted by miss khan
It is so much simpler and more beautiful to believe in one God alone, Who alone holds power over all things, and does not need to be broken up into parts to be understood.
Simplicity, beauty and understanding are in the eyes and mind of the beholder.

Originally posted by miss khan
In answer to all of you:

Jesus was NOT the son of God. Plain. Very simple.

He was a human corporeal person, who ate and drank, voided, slept. He was a child, grew into a man. A created being can not be eternal.
[Quote]If Jesus was God, how did he suffer at the hands of humans, his own creation?

As God, Jesus had the full attributes of God. However there are times when he willingly surrendered the exercise therof. This covers all of your questions except:

What happend to this world, while God was temporarily dead?[/B][Quote]

One thing you must understand is that Jesus was fully God and Man simultaneously. His physical body was dead. Jesus's spiritual body wasn't.

[Quote]And was not Jesus a worshipper of God? umm, he worshipped himself then? There is zero logic in the trinity.

See two paragraphs above.

Allah's revelation (S 109 A1-6): "Say: 'O disbelievers! I worship not that which you worship, nor will you worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which you are worshiping, nor will you worship that which I worship. To you be your religion, and to me my religion "

Jesus was fully God and Man simultaneously
?????????????????? But God created man. So, he was fully Creator and created simultaneously?
I really don't understand.

"To you be your religion, and to me my religion "
My religion makes sense to me.

As vienna said
Simplicity, beauty and understanding are in the eyes and mind of the beholder.
As is religion

Originally posted by miss khan
Allah's revelation (S 109 A1-6): "Say: 'O disbelievers! I worship not that which you worship, nor will you worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which you are worshiping, nor will you worship that which I worship. To you be your religion, and to me my religion "
Sounds fair enough to me miss khan - you believe what you want - and I'll believe what I want.
:)

But what is your point in stating the obvious?

And please don't start preaching Islam to me, you'd be wasting your time.

i'm done preaching for the day.

Do you realize that the Bible/Christianity as a religion was not even documented or written down until hundreds of years after Jesus? I am sure this is not news for you. How can you not see then, that CHANGES have been made to the original message of Jesus. He only preached in the ONENESS, I repeat the ONENESS of God, as did all the other messengers including Muhammad (pbuh).

This is untrue. The term Christian was first used by the christians of Antioch. It is mentioned in Acts and I would suppose Acts is written 50AD. Further, Christians before that time would call themselves members of "the way". If you do not trust what is contained in the bible, the writings of Ignatius are from 100AD and present quite a well-developed theology.

Oneness cannot be expressed by one person. It is the cumulative effect of a joint will.

Oneness cannot be expressed by one person. It is the cumulative effect of a joint will.
What does that mean?