a question about the Tawhid

robtex

10-22-04, 08:02 AM

surenderer

10-22-04, 08:36 AM

Tawhid, if I understand it correctly, (tell me if I am wrong) is the faith in the Unity of God

souce

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/mautaw1.html

I received the following email from something called daily muslim wisdom (trying to learn religon to ask intelligently about it)

In the Tawhid from the link provided I read ,

"Tawhid is the highest conception of godhead, the knowledge of which God has sent mankind in all ages through His Prophets. It was this knowledge with which, in the beginning, Adam was sent down to earth; it was the same knowledge that was revealed to Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (God's blessings be upon them all). It was this knowledge which Muhammad (blessings of Allah and peace be upon him) brought to mankind. It is Knowledge, pure and absolute, without the least shade of ignorance. Man became guilty of shirk, idol-worship and kufr only because he turned away from the teachings of the Prophets and depended on his own faulty reasoning, false perceptions or biased interpretations. Tawhid dispels all the clouds of ignorance and illuminates the horizon with the light of reality."

The Christian God spoke to Noah Abe Moses and Jesus as did Allah....are they one and the same? and is knowing Yahweh and Allah knowing the same God but perhaps a clairty over some of the details by one side or the other?

the bottom link may come in handy to non-muslims in the future....it an islamic database for non muslims to learn from

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glossary.html

Muslims believe( May God help me explain this properly to you) in Tawhid as a matter of fact central to Islamic belief is the oneness or unity (in Arabic: tawhid) of Allah, or God; this is expressed in the basic statement of faith (the shahadah ): "There is no god but god". Muslims dont believe in a "Christian God" or a "Muslim God" we believe in one God whom is the same one that created Adam(pbuh) Noah (pbuh) etc.... Notice that they didnt teach trinity or any association with God at all the taught Tawhid (oneness of God) remember that the word Allah means that (as best as I can get it in English) Supreme Ultimate. It has no gender form nor is it male or female nor can it be made plural like the word God( god's etc..) I usually use the word God on these forums (unless quoting the Koran) simply to not alienate anyone or to put us all on a common level

This link can explains things better than i can ;) :

http://sl.cometsystems.com/r?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.swipnet.se%2Fislam%2Fbooks%2 FShia-faith%2F02.htm&qry=tawhid&rnk=9&aff=inkt&v=18&origin=asearch&src_id=312&tmpl=1Ben

Sufi

10-23-04, 05:20 AM

If we consider the oneness of Allah as explained in the Koran that ALLAH is AHAD (the ultimate ONE), the SAMAD, (the Whole), LAMYALEED (UNDIVIDED from something else), LAMYULAD (UNBROKEN, UNFRAGMENTED) ---the Chapter of Unity--, then we come to understand that:

There is only one single SYSTEM and ORDER that operates in the universe that is organized by the unseparated, undivided basic wholeness, the ultimate oneness, and that we all are subject to, which was tried to be explained to mankind by its perceivers, what you call the prophets and the spiritual masters...

All the prophets confirmed each other and tried to explain mankind this single Universal System and Order, which we call as "religion". Finally, Mohammed (peace be upon him) said 'I have perfected the religion for you' by confirming all the scriptures before him and named this single religion of unity (the system) as ISLAM beacuse of its quality that all things have already SURRENDERED to this basic ultimate whole ONE, the originator of all.

In the sight of Oneness, there are not many religions, there is only one System of life. ISLAM is the name given to this only religion in the sight of ALLAH.

We do not need to be in conflict with eachother, but we need to UNDERSTAND that single Universal System and Order, --no matter from which religious(!) background we come-- in which each of us fullfils the reason for which we existed and get only the result of our deeds --as a basic principle of that System.

Religion is not some orders sent by a god from above to make fun of people. It is the System that operates in the universe which we are subjected to. We need to understand this system and order and be aligned with it in order to know our true selves and avoid from the losses of ignorance.

There are not many religions, because there are not many gods, nor is there a God out there; but there is only 'Allah' as the ultimate Originator of all that is.

When we understand that there is not a separate god for each of us, and there is the originator of everything as the ONE alone, and if we grasp all these, we can easily understand what it means the faith in the "Unity".

Otherwise, we are easily fooled into thinking that we believe in Unity while we waste our lives living in multiplicity, focusing our thoughts on separations and divisions with ego-based judgments.

All differences are merely surface observations, at our core all of us share the same universal essence. This understanding is the Unity that we have been communicated by all attainers of essence.

(Btw, Islam should not be confused with what muslims believe, that is with peoples' Muslimism. Islam is the origin, it is a universal teaching and cannot be owned by a particular person or group. Calling it as "my religion" or "your religion" is childish approaches. Everyone tries to understand Islam as his capacity allows and practices accordingly to attain the benefits for himself, and this becomes his Muslimism.)

Bruce Wayne

10-23-04, 06:11 AM

(Btw, Islam should not be confused with what muslims believe, that is with peoples' Muslimism. Islam is the origin, it is a universal teaching and cannot be owned by a particular person or group. Calling it as "my religion" or "your religion" is childish approaches. Everyone tries to understand Islam as his capacity allows and practices accordingly to attain the benefits for himself, and this becomes his Muslimism.)

The tragedy I incurr on this board is that I have not the time to respond properly and extensively.

So, to be short, concerning there is no My religion.

AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)

Total Verses: 6
Revealed At: MAKKA
Maududi's introduction

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
YUSUFALI: Say: O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

In the last verse the word that is used is Deen. That word means religion. Look it up in adictionnary.

:m:

Doomdayx

10-24-04, 01:31 PM

The tragedy I incurr on this board is that I have not the time to respond properly and extensively.

So, to be short, concerning there is no My religion.

AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)

Total Verses: 6
Revealed At: MAKKA
Maududi's introduction

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

In the last verse the word that is used is Deen. That word means religion. Look it up in adictionnary.

:m:

do you understand from ths lesson that you can own islam as *your* religion? how old are you boy?
if reading arabic were reading the quran, then native arabic speakers would have all been saints, the awliyah of allah! :D

Bruce Wayne

10-24-04, 03:30 PM

:) tis gonna be soo fun, mate :D

do you understand from ths lesson that you can own islam as *your* religion?

When I says it is my country, it does not mean that I own it.

if reading arabic were reading the quran, then native arabic speakers would have all been saints, the awliyah of allah! :D

Reading Arabic is not reading the Qur'an since more things are written down in Arabic than the Qur'an. Yet, one gets can better contemplate the Qur'an if he understands the language ALLAH Chose for the Qur'an.

TA-HA (TA-HA)

020.113
YUSUFALI: Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).
PICKTHAL: Thus we have revealed it as a Lecture in Arabic, and have displayed therein certain threats, that peradventure they may keep from evil or that it may cause them to take heed.
SHAKIR: And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

Now is the moment you should ask yourself whether your previous post shows that you are bright or less than that.

: m:

Doomdayx

10-25-04, 11:35 PM

:) tis gonna be soo fun, mate :D

When I says it is my country, it does not mean that I own it.

when you say it is my country, it actually means that you own it more than anyone else on earth, even a bit of it. you cannot say my religion if you understand that it is the universal religion that explains the system of allah (sunnatallah -if your arabic helps). however you can talk about your *muslimism*, it is your *muslimism*, it is what you understand of islam, the universal religion, of the origin that cannot be owned.

Reading Arabic is not reading the Qur'an since more things are written down in Arabic than the Qur'an. Yet, one gets can better contemplate the Qur'an if he understands the language ALLAH Chose for the Qur'an.

TA-HA (TA-HA)

020.113
YUSUFALI: Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).
PICKTHAL: Thus we have revealed it as a Lecture in Arabic, and have displayed therein certain threats, that peradventure they may keep from evil or that it may cause them to take heed.
SHAKIR: And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

Now is the moment you should ask yourself whether your previous post shows that you are bright or less than that.

how superficial judgment arrived without the least questioning!
boy, when it says we sent it down an arabic quran, i think you imagine that it was send down from the sky page by page in arabic written papers? what do you understand of the *we* here, many powers? and it is obvious that because of limitng the quran into arabic, you believe it is a limited book. it is not.
it is not also a god afar off as you imagine who choses one language for himself. the quran is written kept in the lawhe makhfuz (use your arabic). it is the ummul kitaab the mother of books, in the dimension of pure meanings, pure consciousness, in the origin of every event. arabic is the language that this book was communicated to people by rasulallah, after it was read from the lahwe makhfuuz without language but with the eye of pure consciousness. if rasulallah spoke another language, he would communicate it in that other language. reading the quran does not mean reading arabic, it may be in urdu, indian, turkish, persian, indonesian, english, french, etc. reading the quran means reading the sunnatallah from any moment of life itself. with this clear point of view arabic may be helpful, but may be, and has been for me to think about it but one should not try to involve arabic nationalism into the unversal religion of peace.
you see. i do not need to be bright, but the knowledge i have got by contemplating and understaning the quran and rasulallah is not at least superficial.

surenderer

10-26-04, 07:01 AM

Bruce Wayne

10-26-04, 07:06 AM

Why not make the effort to learn God and the language he revealed to his last Prophet?

Why do that? that would mean thinking :eek:

I don't think Ahmed Baki & co. would encourage their followers to learn Arabic and thus Read the Qur' an as it is.

:m:

Sufi

10-26-04, 07:32 AM

Why do that? that would mean thinking :eek:

I don't think Ahmed Baki & co. would encourage their followers to learn Arabic and thus Read the Qur' an as it is.

:m:

Here is what Ahmed Hulusi says in his book "Religious Misunderstandings", which may (hopefully) stop Bruce Wayne from throwing further slanderings without knowledge to one of the best selling muslim authors.

Although the result to be suffered would be the same, an Arab's denial of the Rasul of Allah and the Koran will not the same as the denial by a non-Arab.

Being an Arab, someone can reject some information that came to him in his own language, because of his incapacity to understand it.

A non-Arab however, can in fact confirm or reject the understanding of its translator only, in a way, for he cannot get that point within reach without the translation of someone else.

Besides…

How reliable do you think that the information recounted by people within a dull-witted community can be, in which repeating the words of someone or other is considered enough to be a "person of wisdom (ilm)" and where people lack the ability to reflect (tafaqqur) = deep thinking as they grow up with a mentality that education is to give something word for word?

What do you think about the level of "knowledge" (ilm) of those people who are poor of ability to think systematically, who speak in a mode based on so-and-so person's fatwa (decision after his interpretation) whenever that decision favors them, and who try to hide their ignorance saying "Allah only knows it" whenever they cannot find an answer?

How can it be possible to address to tomorrow by means of the repetition of yesterday?

"The religion of Muslimism" in our day appears to be the acceptance of "using force on people to put the orders of God into practice" through the repetition of old clichés within the management of an authority.

Sufi

10-26-04, 07:41 AM

Doom,
So are you then saying (just wondering) that one doesnt need to learn Arabic to read the Koran? I have seen the cess-pool that the Bible has become because of translations and translations of translations etc Remeber that muslims believe that the Bible was pure untill this..... That's part of the reason that the Koran has been protected for 1400 years. Why not make the effort to learn God and the language he revealed to his last Prophet? Its the easy way out to just have it translated for you and thus depend on someone else's interpetation of what was meant. As I am sure you know that some words (Allah being one) dont translate into other languages at least not with their full effect.

Peace to you

Here is a passage for you, surrenderer, which I think you will enjoy reaing to think further (from the well known soruces).

Do we desire to understand the Koran al-Karim?

If we want to understand and evaluate the Koran al-Karim correctly, we must at first communicate the original words of the Koran as they are and use those original words in every related place.

When reading the interpretations (tafsir) or translations (ma’al) of the Koran, please pay attention to the following point first… If in a Koran translation, the word "GOD" is used instead of the word "Allah" in the original text and if the word "prophet" is employed in a translation while the words of "Rasul" and "Nabi" are cited in the original text, then please be assured that such a translation is not capable of helping you reach the realities (haqiqat) and the mysteries (sirr) that are being referred in the Koran!

It will never be possible for you to grasp the message given to us by Hazrat Mohammed Mustafa alayhessalam by means of such a translation… Not even its translator has understood anything from that Book: his translation cannot serve us!

In our various publications we have tried to explain that the meaning of the word "God" has nothing to do with the meaning that is denoted by the name "Allah"; and that the word "god" associates with a religion of "SkyGod"…

I would like to highlight another error now, which is the usage of the word "PROPHET" in Koran translations…

More available at http://www.ahmedbaki.com/english/books/system/system12.htm

Sufi

10-26-04, 07:49 AM

HOW TO READ THE KORAN

In our day, being able to read the words in Arabic letters (even without knowing their meaning) is assumed to be "reading the Koran"… Some people however, consider reading Koran translations (ma’al) as "reading the Koran"… These are only the preliminary stages of "reading" the Koran…

Yet, in my opinion, such forms of readings cannot be regarded as "READING" the Koran!

As we have referred to "READING" the System…

We can also refer to "READING" the Koran…

How is it possible to really READ the Koran?

READING the Koran is only possible through perceiving "the SPIRIT of the Koran"!

What does it mean to perceive the "the SPIRIT of the Koran"?

What is the purpose for which the Koran al-Karim has been revealed to mankind?

What kinds of benefits does the Koran al-Karim provide for the people to whom it has been revealed?

What kind of a life does the Koran al-Karim prepare for those to whom it has been revealed?

What kind of qualities does the Koran al-Karim reveal to people to whom it has been revealed?

Has the Koran al-Karim been revealed with an aim to limit, fix and lock people into a form of life, and seal the doors to advancement or, is it aimed at showing them the ways of advancing steadfastly, to provide them with rights that they are not aware of or that have been taken away, and to inform them of the ways to live with the faculties of being a "khaliph" man and woman alike, as a consequence?

http://www.ahmedbaki.com/english/books/system/

Bruce Wayne

10-26-04, 08:10 AM

when you say it is my country, it actually means that you own it more than anyone else on earth, even a bit of it. you cannot say my religion if you understand that it is the universal religion that explains the system of allah (sunnatallah -if your arabic helps).

warning:This is not making you look smart.

But it seems to be my calling to chew everything for the teethless like you. When I say it is my country, I don't have to own it. I myself belong to it. But I don't own it.

however you can talk about your *muslimism*, it is your *muslimism*, it is what you understand of islam, the universal religion, of the origin that cannot be owned.

The only thing I know about this muslimism of yours is that you like to put it as a label on others. It is not me who calls myself a Mohammedan (it is you). I humbly follow the Qur'an when Allah says that he has chosen for as Islam as a religion.

how superficial judgment arrived without the least questioning!

:rolleyes:

boy, when it says we sent it down an arabic quran, i think you imagine that it was send down from the sky page by page in arabic written papers? what do you understand of the *we* here, many powers?

A superb analogy, albeit not the way you think it is. This illustrates the importance of Arabic. For the "we" in Arabic doesn't denote multiple persons. It is a way of speech denoting majesty. This is a fine example showing that importance of Arabic while understanding the Qur'an. Allah chose to reveal it in Arabic. Or do you want to say that it was the prophet that wrote it of his mind.

MARYAM (MARY)

019.097
YUSUFALI: So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention.

PICKTHAL: And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward folk.

SHAKIR: So We have only made it easy in your tongue that you may give good news thereby to those who guard (against evil) and warn thereby a vehemently contentious people.

ANd

AD-DUKHAN (SMOKE)

044.058

YUSUFALI: Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed.

PICKTHAL: And We have made (this Scripture) easy in thy language only that they may heed.

SHAKIR: So have We made it easy in your tongue that they may be mindful.

and it is obvious that because of limitng the quran into arabic, you believe it is a limited book. it is not.

Hey it wasn't me. It was Allah-subhaanahu wa ta3aala.

it is not also a god afar off as you imagine who choses one language for himself. the quran is written kept in the lawhe makhfuz (use your arabic). it is the ummul kitaab the mother of books,

Allah is above language. Arabic was Chossen for us because it is a vast language (wa LLahu a3lam).

in the dimension of pure meanings, pure consciousness, in the origin of every event.

Where did this information come from? the Qur'an?

arabic is the language that this book was communicated to people by rasulallah, after it was read from the lahwe makhfuuz without language but with the eye of pure consciousness. if rasulallah spoke another language, he would communicate it in that other language. reading the quran does not mean reading arabic, it may be in urdu, indian, turkish, persian, indonesian, english, french, etc. reading the quran means reading the sunnatallah from any moment of life itself.

No. That would mean the words were those of the prophet -peace be upon him. They are not.

Allah says:

TA-HA (TA-HA)

020.113
YUSUFALI: Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).

PICKTHAL: Thus we have revealed it as a Lecture in Arabic, and have displayed therein certain threats, that peradventure they may keep from evil or that it may cause them to take heed.

SHAKIR: And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

with this clear point of view arabic may be helpful

Well Dohh! Glad your mind could join us.

but may be, and has been for me to think about it but one should not try to involve arabic nationalism into the unversal religion of peace.

lol. There goes your mind again. While others have arguments of why Arabic "nationalism" is well compatible with Islam, I happen to view Arab NAtionalism as something beneath Islam, I might be mistaken though.

you see. i do not need to be bright, but the knowledge i have got by contemplating and understaning the quran and rasulallah is not at least superficial.

I agree that you are not so bright.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-26-04, 08:14 AM

Here is what Ahmed Hulusi says in his book "Religious Misunderstandings", which may (hopefully) stop Bruce Wayne from throwing further slanderings without knowledge to one of the best selling muslim authors.

Can you please not edit your last post. It is soo cute :) yet soo disturbing :bugeye:.
Oh so he sells well. I guess that would mean that Micheal Moore is an oracle.

Sufi, how much do mista Hulusi's books cost a piece?

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-26-04, 08:21 AM

Although the result to be suffered would be the same, an Arab's denial of the Rasul of Allah and the Koran will not the same as the denial by a non-Arab.

Being an Arab, someone can reject some information that came to him in his own language, because of his incapacity to understand it.

A non-Arab however, can in fact confirm or reject the understanding of its translator only, in a way, for he cannot get that point within reach without the translation of someone else.

Besides…

How reliable do you think that the information recounted by people within a dull-witted community can be, in which repeating the words of someone or other is considered enough to be a "person of wisdom (ilm)" and where people lack the ability to reflect (tafaqqur) = deep thinking as they grow up with a mentality that education is to give something word for word?

I would like to thank Ahmed for his support and for making my point. You guys are soo hillarious. I would appreciate if one of you could relay that to him, thx. (maybe he can send better acolytes).

Keep up the good work. ;)

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-26-04, 08:27 AM

Here is a passage for you, surrenderer, which I think you will enjoy reaing to think further (from the well known soruces).

Do we desire to understand the Koran al-Karim?

If we want to understand and evaluate the Koran al-Karim correctly, we must at first communicate the original words of the Koran as they are and use those original words in every related place.

When reading the interpretations (tafsir) or translations (ma’al) of the Koran, please pay attention to the following point first… If in a Koran translation, the word "GOD" is used instead of the word "Allah" in the original text and if the word "prophet" is employed in a translation while the words of "Rasul" and "Nabi" are cited in the original text, then please be assured that such a translation is not capable of helping you reach the realities (haqiqat) and the mysteries (sirr) that are being referred in the Koran!

It will never be possible for you to grasp the message given to us by Hazrat Mohammed Mustafa alayhessalam by means of such a translation… Not even its translator has understood anything from that Book: his translation cannot serve us!

In our various publications we have tried to explain that the meaning of the word "God" has nothing to do with the meaning that is denoted by the name "Allah"; and that the word "god" associates with a religion of "SkyGod"…

I would like to highlight another error now, which is the usage of the word "PROPHET" in Koran translations…

More available at http://www.ahmedbaki.com/english/books/system/system12.htm

Conclusions: Translations are inaccurate. The Qur'an is in Arabic.

Again thnx for agreeing.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-26-04, 08:37 AM

Sufi

10-26-04, 04:11 PM

Sufi, how much do mista Hulusi's books cost a piece?

Ahmed Hulusi is the only Islamic author in the world today who since 1963 distributes all his works (more than 30 books, tens of video and audio tapes) for free without compyright and without any material gaining. All of them are availbel on the internet for free for READERS.

This is written in all his books:

As with all our publications, this book has no copyrights reserved. Provided that its original form is not changed in any way and its authors are notified in advance, it can be printed, reproduced, published, translated, and distributed free of charge.
NO REWARD IS DEMANDED IN RETURN FOR THE KNOWLEDGE (ilm) OF ALLAH.

I do no think this will even embarress someone who has lost his sense of respect to others and who keeps throwing slanderings on others over and over again in almost every post even after he is proved wrong.

Sufi

10-26-04, 04:37 PM

Conclusions: Translations are inaccurate. The Qur'an is in Arabic.

You misunderstood again. Translations are not inaccurate. They arehelpful but may be insufficient. The Qurain is not in Arabic, it is writen in the lawhe makhfuz, in the dimension of universal consciousness, without being restricted to any language. It was READ by all nabis and rasuls at different levels (so it took different names) and they were communicated to people in their language so that people can understand them.

The unique Book that I am talking about, the Koran, will remain safe until eternity even though the Arabic papers are lost. Because it is written within the origin of the Allah's system and order and will remain safe as far as this universal system and order exist.

This deep spiritual understanding of reality has always been dificult for mullahs to think and comprehend, who adhere to literal words of the book.

surenderer

10-26-04, 11:34 PM

Sufi would you agree that certain words dont translate fully into other languages? Even as a Sufi yourself I am curious how you can meditate or contemplate on something which isnt in its original text

Translations are not inaccurate. They arehelpful but may be insufficient

That is suffient enough for you?

The Qurain is not in Arabic, it is writen in the lawhe makhfuz, in the dimension of universal consciousness, without being restricted to any language.

That sounds good on paper and all but being someone who knows Arabic I know I can go to any bookstore and pick up an English Koran and read it and know that it doesnt say the same thing as an Arabic one.......let me quote you to prove my point:

They arehelpful but may be insufficient

;)

The unique Book that I am talking about, the Koran, will remain safe until eternity even though the Arabic papers are lost.

Part of the reason the Koran will remain safe is because it is the most memorized book in the world(in Arabic ;) )

One last note about trusting translations.......lets take the word Jihad...if we look it up on dictionary.com the 1st defination they give is:

1.A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.

But as a Muslim you should know that the word Jihad stems from the Arabic root word J-H-D, which means "strive." Other words derived from this root include "effort," "labor," and "fatigue." Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution. Now why wouldnt they say that 1st?

1.5 Billion Muslims also say their prayers daily in Arabic....do you think that too is unnecessary? how about facing Mecca?

Bruce Wayne

10-27-04, 02:34 AM

How about praying? Praying as in prostrating to Allah and reciting the Qur'an.

About the Lawh. al.Mahfud. Everything is there. So the Injeel is there too even the bible is. Yet it wasn't preserved for us. And that is the difference. The Qur'an is preserved in Arabic.

You - off course - failed to responde to what I posted before. The Qur'an was only not written in Arabic it was sent in Arabic.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-27-04, 02:40 AM

Ahmed Hulusi is the only Islamic author in the world today who since 1963 distributes all his works (more than 30 books, tens of video and audio tapes) for free without compyright and without any material gaining. All of them are availbel on the internet for free for READERS.

This is written in all his books:

As with all our publications, this book has no copyrights reserved. Provided that its original form is not changed in any way and its authors are notified in advance, it can be printed, reproduced, published, translated, and distributed free of charge.
NO REWARD IS DEMANDED IN RETURN FOR THE KNOWLEDGE (ilm) OF ALLAH.

I do no think this will even embarress someone who has lost his sense of respect to others and who keeps throwing slanderings on others over and over again in almost every post even after he is proved wrong.

Give the the guy an A for marketing.

see what happened... I was searching the page from ahmed baki, btw it says something if he is naming the website after himself. And just under the book precepts I found a big link saying: In association with amazon.

Me being curious I followed the link. And look what I found:

$79!!! a piece!! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Ahmed%20Hulusi/103-5816602-8233425)

Maybe I should start taking you money too. I would do that. If I had no integrity and fear of Allah.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-27-04, 02:53 AM

You misunderstood again. Translations are not inaccurate. They arehelpful but may be insufficient.

Which basicaly means they are good if hulusi's spin is added.

The Qurain is not in Arabic, it is writen in the lawhe makhfuz, in the dimension of universal consciousness, without being restricted to any language.

Ok. In what language did al.arabi read it? was it arabic or pure cousiousness. same goes for Hulusi. Oh, and when reading in pure consiousness do you need to see the book or is not necessary (saves on printing-costs).

It was READ by all nabis and rasuls at different levels (so it took different names) and they were communicated to people in their language so that people can understand them.

If you answer only one. I want it to be this question:
In what language did Mohammed -peace be upon him- communicate it to you??

The unique Book that I am talking about, the Koran, will remain safe until eternity even though the Arabic papers are lost. Because it is written within the origin of the Allah's system and order and will remain safe as far as this universal system and order exist.

refer to my previous post.

This deep spiritual understanding of reality has always been dificult for mullahs to think and comprehend, who adhere to literal words of the book.

First, Mullah is a word that is restricted to the pakistan-Afghanistan-India area. But I take it that if they have not see hulusi's light everyone is Mullah.

Second of all, Get real, you need arabic to understand on your own.

Third, How can you claim better understanding than them if you have never read the Book.

Fourth,

Besides…

How reliable do you think that the information recounted by people within a dull-witted community can be, in which repeating the words of someone or other is considered enough to be a "person of wisdom (ilm)" and where people lack the ability to reflect (tafaqqur) = deep thinking as they grow up with a mentality that education is to give something word for word?

I again want to express my deepest gratitude for this quote.

Thank you.

And may Allah help you.

:m:

Sufi

10-27-04, 01:17 PM

Ok. In what language did al.arabi read it? was it arabic or pure cousiousness. same goes for Hulusi. Oh, and when reading in pure consiousness do you need to see the book or is not necessary (saves on printing-costs).

Pure consciousness. In time you will be able to understand what that means.

One cannot read the Koran unless reading it from within his consciousness. (This is not of course for mullahs who take it as a book of orders sent by a separate god...)

Btw, you still do not know if I undersand Arabic. You just keep throwing accusations and slanderings based on your prejudice. You would not dare to do that if you believed whichever side you turn, there is the presence (face) of Allah, would you? Question if it is because you imagine Allah as a god separate out there, and therefore you thinkyou can easily be hostile to anyone because they are already separate from Allah in your eyes!

Sufi

10-27-04, 01:21 PM

Give the the guy an A for marketing.

see what happened... I was searching the page from ahmed baki, btw it says something if he is naming the website after himself. And just under the book precepts I found a big link saying: In association with amazon.

Me being curious I followed the link. And look what I found:

$79!!! a piece!! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Ahmed%20Hulusi/103-5816602-8233425)

Maybe I should start taking you money too. I would do that. If I had no integrity and fear of Allah.

:m:

You began confusing a lot of things. You must ask about it to amazon.

Send me your postall adress I will send you all those books for free. :)

Sufi

10-27-04, 01:47 PM

Sufi would you agree that certain words dont translate fully into other languages? Even as a Sufi yourself I am curious how you can meditate or contemplate on something which isnt in its original text

1.5 Billion Muslims also say their prayers daily in Arabic....do you think that too is unnecessary?

That's good. I think that you are not going to translate "Allah" into "God" from now on :) That will sure lead to better advancements.

Part of the reason the Koran will remain safe is because it is the most memorized book in the world(in Arabic

Doesn't this sound to you a childish belief when considering the end of the world after billions of years from now? The Koran will remain not in memories, but within the essence of the system and order that we are always subject to. Try to read it, you will see it is forever!

Also remember the Koran was always there to read before it was memorized. Mohammed (pbuh) READ the Koran from the system and order in life. Remember iqra when he was not given any written book! So what was he asked to read?

Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution.

No it is not in the face of outer oppression and persecution! This is one's ego's desire only. Jihad is misundesrtood. Before completely living it innerly and before reaching full contentment (peace), what you define as jihad is not different from throwing the first stone, and it is not.

So many muslims are thinking they are practicing jihad even if they do not know what is referred to as "Allah" whereas knowing and believing in Allah as is defined in the Koran is the basis of the religion. There cannot be religion or religious practice without it. The practice of the ignorant only satsifies their ego, nothing else. And because of theri illusion of a separate god who watches them from above, they foolisly keep expecting a favor from their imaginal god in return of their practice.

Essentially jihad is an effort not to forget in any case that whichever side you turn there is the presence of ALLAH, nothing else. There cannot be jihad without knowing what Allah is or as fas as one takes Allah as a separate god.

All hostile practices are caused by a belief in an outer separate god.

When what is refferred to as Allah is understood, the problem of hostility will cease to exist, and you will begin to love your enemy. :)

surenderer

10-27-04, 03:02 PM

All hostile practices are caused by a belief in an outer separate god.

Sorry Sufi but the Koran says that sometimes we gotta fight:

[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know

Doesn't this sound to you a childish belief when considering the end of the world after billions of years from now?

Whats childish? Learining Arabic?? sigh......let me quote the Koran again (interpetation of meaning):

[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

[20.113] And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand

Also remember the Koran was always there to read before it was memorized. Mohammed (pbuh) READ the Koran from the system and order in life.

Sufi Mohammed(pbuh) didnt write the Koran it was given to the Prophet(pbuh) through Gabriel:

Read: In the name of thy Lord who createth,
Createth man from a clot.
Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
Who teacheth by the pen,
Teacheth man that which he knew not. (96:1-5)

But please tell me where in the Koran you get your info from?Also refering back to jihad can you please tell me if you believe in Sunnah?

Sufi

10-28-04, 10:33 AM

Sorry Sufi but the Koran says that sometimes we gotta fight:

[2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know

One cannot understand the Koran truly unless one considers the conditions at the time when a sign was revealed.

You ougt to feel yourself in the "dislike" part of this verse before feeling sometimes you gotta fight. First dislike figthing for the sake of Allah, considering the above verses I have given.

Whats childish? Learining Arabic?? sigh......let me quote the Koran again (interpetation of meaning):

You said the Koran will remain safe is because it is the most memorized book in the world.

Doesn't this sound to you a childish belief when considering the end of the world after billions of years from now? The Koran will remain not in memories, but within the essence of the system and order that we are always subject to. Try to read it, you will see it is forever!

Sufi Mohammed(pbuh) didnt write the Koran it was given to the Prophet(pbuh) through Gabriel:

Read: In the name of thy Lord who createth,
Createth man from a clot.
Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
Who teacheth by the pen,
Teacheth man that which he knew not. (96:1-5)

Mohammed did not write it. However, he READ it and communicated to people. What do you understand of iqra (read)? What did he read?

But when you believe that the Koran started with its communication in Arabic, then you are saying that it wa written by the prophet. No, the Koran is existent in the essence of the universe forever, even before the world created, and it is READ and COMMUNICATED to people by Rasuls and Nabis.

Only mullahs believe that Koran has a language and is Arabic. Koran is universal, cannot be restricted to one language. It is often mixed with Arabic nationalism. Whereas, the Koran was only communicated in Arabic. Every human being can READ it as far as his capacity allows without needing a paricular language. Because it is written within the origin of the universe and within the origin of every human beings' consciousness.

But please tell me where in the Koran you get your info from?Also refering back to jihad can you please tell me if you believe in Sunnah?

Unless you do not reform your perspective by and upon learning what is referred to as ALLAH as the basic concept of all themes in Islam, you cannot deduce true meanings from the literal Koran verses. Accept ALLAH as defined in the Chapter Of Unity first, then new doors will be opened for you at any verse you read.

Saying I believe or not does not make one a believer or isbeliever. It matters if what is believed is really applied to form a new perspective and consciousness. As long as one lacks the unifying consciousness of RasulAllah, it does not mean anything to say I believe in Sunnah.

surenderer

10-28-04, 12:06 PM

Only mullahs believe that Koran has a language and is Arabic.

Now unless you are saying that the Koran is mistranslated even in Arabic(which means you arent a muslim) or is wrong (which means you arent a muslim) that statement goes directly against what the Koran states:(interpetation of meaning)

[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

[13.37] And thus have We revealed it, a true judgment in Arabic, and if you follow their low desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you shall not have against Allah any guardian or a protector

وَلاَ وَاقٍ

[16.103] And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear Arabic tongue.
مُّبِينٌ }
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ لاَ يَهْدِيهِمُ اللّهُ

[20.113] And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

الْوَعِيدِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَّقُونَ أَوْ يُحْدِثُ لَهُمْ ذِكْرًا

[39.28] An Arabic Quran without any crookedness, that they may guard (against evil).

ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا رَّجُلًا فِيهِ شُرَكَاء مُتَشَاكِسُونَ وَرَجُلًا سَلَمًا لِّرَجُلٍ هَلْ يَسْتَوِيَانِ مَثَلًا الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

[41.3] A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know:
بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا فَأَعْرَضَ أَكْثَرُهُمْ فَهُمْ لَا

[42.7] And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire.

وَلَوْ شَاء اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَهُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَكِن يُدْخِلُ مَن يَشَاء فِي رَحْمَتِهِ وَالظَّالِمُونَ مَا لَهُم مِّن

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand
إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

[46.12] And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.

ظَلَمُوا وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُحْسِنِينَ}
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ ثُمَّ اسْتَقَامُوا فَلَا

etc...........Notice I have provided Arabic also so you can read it in the language it was revealed and see that this is the wish of our Creator

Arabic is the most efficient language in the world, especially when it
comes to the precise statement of laws. Since the Quran is a Statute
Book, it was crucial that such laws must be clearly stated. God chose
Arabic for His Final Testament because of the obvious reason that it
is the most suitable language for that purpose. Arabic is unique in
its efficiency and accuracy. For example, the word "they" in English
does not tell you if "they" are males or females. In Arabic there is a
"they" for the males, "HUM," and a "they" for the females, "HUNNA."
For two females, instead of "these" or "those" there is "HAATAAN"
and for the two males "HAATHAN." This feature does not exist in
any other language in the world. (that I know of) :D

Saying I believe or not does not make one a believer or isbeliever. It matters if what is believed is really applied to form a new perspective and consciousness. As long as one lacks the unifying consciousness of RasulAllah, it does not mean anything to say I believe in Sunnah

Well I do agree that saying "I believe" isnt enough (lip service) and one has to change their lifestyle......Let me ask you again.....do you believe in Sunnah( nice try but stop avoiding the question ;) )

Koran is universal, cannot be restricted to one language. It is often mixed with Arabic nationalism. Whereas, the Koran was only communicated in Arabic. Every human being can READ it as far as his capacity allows without needing a paricular language.

Completely ridicuous........what should they do Sufi sleep with the Koran under their pillow? how can one study it without reading it? I have shown you (see above) how words have different meanings and interpetations in different languages. Why bother with that? How could a new Muslim know the difference? Why not cut out the "middle man"? Learn the Arabic and decide for yourself!!

Sufi

10-28-04, 04:03 PM

Well I do agree that saying "I believe" isnt enough (lip service) and one has to change their lifestyle......Let me ask you again.....do you believe in Sunnah( nice try but stop avoiding the question )

Accept any answer that you would like to :)

A lot of confusion and misundersandings in your reply... and you seem to tend to turn a blind eye to the verses about the presence of Allah in whichever side you turn in order to prove your fighting desire right.

Read this again:

Mohammed did not write the Koran. However, he READ it (iqra) and communicated to people. What do you understand of iqra (read)? What did he read?

If you believe that the Koran started with its communication in Arabic, then you are saying that it was written by the prophet. No, the Koran is existent in the essence of the universe forever, even before the world created, and will last until doomsday, it was READ and COMMUNICATED to people by Rasuls and Nabis.

As far as I see, when you say the Koran, you are referring to the printed book which you have in your bookcase, while I refer it to the "meanings" the original book behind the words, the ummul kitaab.

Let me ask you one question. According to your insertions, there was no Koran before it was communicated by RasulAllah! Consider now the system and order, and the universal laws that the Koran tells us to be operating in life and we are all subject to.

Do you think that the sytem of Allah (sunnatAllah) and the laws or whatever you call them, which we are informed that operates in life and we are all subject to, did not exist before the revelation of the Koran to RasulAllah?

Think for yourself now. Did the laws the Koran informs us exist befroe its communication in Arabic? And what was Mohammed (pbuh) asked to READ in the beginning?

Sufi

10-28-04, 04:24 PM

Also consider the verse:

We shall show them Our signs upon the horizons and in themselves, until it is clear to them that Alah is the real. (41:53)

Sufi

10-28-04, 04:40 PM

And in your soulds --what, do you not see? (51:21)

Sufi

10-28-04, 04:43 PM

14:4: Allah sent no Rasul save with the tongue of his people...

surenderer

10-28-04, 09:00 PM

Also consider the verse:

We shall show them Our signs upon the horizons and in themselves, until it is clear to them that Alah is the real. (41:53)

[41.52] Say: Tell me if it is from Allah; then you disbelieve in it, who is in greater error than he who is in a prolonged opposition?
[41.53] We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?
[41.54] Now surely they are in doubt as to the meeting of their Lord; now surely He encompasses all things.

Even though its in English you should quote the whole thing properly Sufi.....and in reading the whole context(the ayats before and after) anyone can see what it means(it's refering to disbelievers)

surenderer

10-28-04, 09:05 PM

And in your soulds --what, do you not see? (51:21)

[51.20] And in the earth there are signs for those who are sure,
[51.21] And in your own souls (too); will you not then see?
[51.22] And in the heaven is your sustenance and what you are threatened with.

Either we are having English translation differences (ironic isnt it) or you are changing surah's .....but knowing Arabic I know that your translations are wrong....but you are quoting what the Creator has said are signs to the disbelievers

surenderer

10-28-04, 09:15 PM

14:4: Allah sent no Rasul save with the tongue of his people...

14.4] And We did not send any apostle but with the language of his people, so that he might explain to them clearly; then Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases and He is the Mighty, the Wise

Whats with the misquotes?....why not quote the whole ayat? because it proves you wrong? That is deceitful :bugeye: How can you get your point across to anyone like that?

Bruce Wayne

10-29-04, 03:23 AM

Pure consciousness. In time you will be able to understand what that means.

One cannot read the Koran unless reading it from within his consciousness. (This is not of course for mullahs who take it as a book of orders sent by a separate god...)

Oke when reading the Qur'an with pure consciousness did it have to be in the same room? did they need to see it? or did they learn it(s words) from heart?

Btw, you still do not know if I undersand Arabic.

Quite fleeing, do you understand or not?

You just keep throwing accusations and slanderings based on your prejudice.

NO I am giving arguments. Maybe you cannot encompass them, but they are present. Open the eyes !

You would not dare to do that if you believed whichever side you turn, there is the presence (face) of Allah, would you? Question if it is because you imagine Allah as a god separate out there, and therefore you thinkyou can easily be hostile to anyone because they are already separate from Allah in your eyes!

Very cute. So those who do not believe you are not moral since they think they can evade Allah. No, that is not the way it works. Allah knows everything. I will be judged for every letter I write and the intention behind it.

But If I would believe in your fantasy. I would do whathever I'd wish. I would lie like Hulusi does, and think I would get away with it.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-29-04, 03:25 AM

oops I forgot:

Besides…

How reliable do you think that the information recounted by people within a dull-witted community can be, in which repeating the words of someone or other is considered enough to be a "person of wisdom (ilm)" and where people lack the ability to reflect (tafaqqur) = deep thinking as they grow up with a mentality that education is to give something word for word?

:m:

Doomdayx

10-29-04, 03:31 AM

14.4] And We did not send any apostle but with the language of his people, so that he might explain to them clearly; then Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases and He is the Mighty, the Wise

Whats with the misquotes?....why not quote the whole ayat? because it proves you wrong? That is deceitful :bugeye: How can you get your point across to anyone like that?

surrenderer, i cannot see any difference in meaning between your and sufi's translations. you may not agree on others' way of quoting, but he clearly points out where you can find the lessons of the quran that works against your argument. you have looked them up and got the point!
he proves right that arabic is the language of the prophet's people rather than being chosen by a god as a language for himself. arabic is the language of the people that mohammed *peace be upon him* communicated it to us. let us be logical! what else would you expect? have you seen any lesson in the quran that says god has chosen arabic for himself?
do not misunderstand! i am not saying knowing arabic is bad. i am saying limiting the religion of peace sent by allah to entire humankind into one language is a mistaken point. anyone can read the quran whether they know arabic or not particularly.
you seem you are probably confusing reading the quran, with its quality of being zhikr in original words.

so reading the lessons in the quran, what is your reply to sufi's questions?
]Do you think that the sytem of Allah (sunnatAllah) and the laws or whatever you call them, which we are informed that operates in life and we are all subject to, did not exist before the revelation of the Koran to RasulAllah?

Did the laws the Koran informs us exist befroe its communication in Arabic? And what was Mohammed (pbuh) asked to READ in the beginning?

Bruce Wayne

10-29-04, 03:32 AM

You began confusing a lot of things. You must ask about it to amazon.

Send me your postall adress I will send you all those books for free. :)

It was Ahmed Baki who sent me there. :D

:m:

Doomdayx

10-29-04, 03:51 AM

Doom,
So are you then saying (just wondering) that one doesnt need to learn Arabic to read the Koran?
will be better if one learns.
I have seen the cess-pool that the Bible has become because of translations and translations of translations etc Remeber that muslims believe that the Bible was pure untill this..... That's part of the reason that the Koran has been protected for 1400 years.
it is not the reason. don't worry it is written in everyone's inner and outer world, it will be protected in any way. the problem is to be able to read it truly.

read [41.53] (We shall show them Our signs upon the horizons and in their souls....)
btw, afaq does rather mean horizon (outside world) as in sufi's translation.

Why not make the effort to learn God and the language he revealed to his last Prophet? Its the easy way out to just have it translated for you and thus depend on someone else's interpetation of what was meant. As I am sure you know that some words (Allah being one) dont translate into other languages at least not with their full effect.

fine. but do not try to limit reading the quran into one language.
peace to you

Doomdayx

10-29-04, 04:19 AM

warning:This is not making you look smart.

But it seems to be my calling to chew everything for the teethless like you. When I say it is my country, I don't have to own it. I myself belong to it. But I don't own it.

boy, you tend to own everything. religion, god, the language of god... all are yours. i suggest you to let them free and try to widen your horizons. your have turned the universal religion of peace into your tribal religion.

The only thing I know about this muslimism of yours is that you like to put it as a label on others.
that reflects your understanding of sunnah. based on my learnings from the prophet i never chose to call anyone otherwise once he says he is muslim.

It is not me who calls myself a Mohammedan (it is you).
you are confused again. if you are not mohammedan you are not. (btw, look it up in an english dictionary for mohammedan) :D
I humbly follow the Qur'an when Allah says that he has chosen for as Islam as a religion.
that's good for you. (though most difficult). let us see then how you apply it to your perspective and attiudes and stop backbiting and throwing slanderings on other muslims whom you have no idea other than their names. as you do not like to put it as a label, start practicing the lessons i quoted about allahs presence everywhere.
lol. There goes your mind again. While others have arguments of why Arabic "nationalism" is well compatible with Islam, I happen to view Arab NAtionalism as something beneath Islam, I might be mistaken though.

open your mind, there are hundreds of tribal religions in the world today. think about what it means to be the unviersal religion of peace for all humankind.

Bruce Wayne

10-29-04, 04:35 AM

Doesn't this sound to you a childish belief when considering the end of the world after billions of years from now? The Koran will remain not in memories, but within the essence of the system and order that we are always subject to. Try to read it, you will see it is forever!

If you would know more about religion you would undertsand that mpoint. I don't have the time to explain it to you. So just think of what happened to the Torah and the Injeel when they kept being translated. Suddently some attributed a son to Allah -Ma3athallah-

Also remember the Koran was always there to read before it was memorized. Mohammed (pbuh) READ the Koran from the system and order in life. Remember iqra when he was not given any written book! So what was he asked to read?

You are not Mohammad (peace be upon him)

So many muslims are thinking they are practicing jihad even if they do not know what is referred to as "Allah" whereas knowing and believing in Allah as is defined in the Koran is the basis of the religion. There cannot be religion or religious practice without it. The practice of the ignorant only satsifies their ego, nothing else. And because of theri illusion of a separate god who watches them from above, they foolisly keep expecting a favor from their imaginal god in return of their practice.

If they believed you fantasy, would they then be performing (armed)Jihad or does armed Jihad not exist in your world?

Essentially jihad is an effort not to forget in any case that whichever side you turn there is the presence of ALLAH, nothing else. There cannot be jihad without knowing what Allah is or as fas as one takes Allah as a separate god.

Why? because you say that? Mohammed -peace be upon him- didn't believe in a non-seperate idol as you do.

(let's see if you believe in Sunnah, no turning around the bush now. And there is more)

Sahih Muslim

Book 004, Number 1094:

Mu'awiya b. al-Hakam said: While I was praying with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), a man in the company sneezed. I said: Allah have mercy on you! The people stared at me with disapproving looks, so I said: Woe be upon me, why is it that you stare at me? They began to strike their hands on their thighs, and when I saw them urging me to observe silence (I became angry) but I said nothing. When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said the prayer (and I declare that neither before him nor after him have I seen a leader who gave better instruction than he for whom I would give my father and mother as ransom). I swear that he did not scold, beat or revile me but said: Talking to persons is not fitting during the prayer, for it consists of glorifying Allah, declaring his Greatness. and recitation of the Qur'an or words to that effect. I said: Messenger of Allah. I was till recently a pagan, but Allah has brought Islam to us; among us there are men who have recourse to Kahins. He said, Do not have recourse to them. I said. There are men who take omens. That is something which they find in their breasts, but let it not turn their way (from freedom of action). I said: Among us there are men who draw lines. He said: There was a prophet who drew lines, so if they do it as they did, that is allowable. I had a maid-servant who tended goats by the side of Uhud and Jawwaniya. One day I happened to pass that way and found that a wolf had carried a goat from her flock. I am after all a man from the posterity of Adam. I felt sorry as they (human beings) feel sorry. So I slapped her. I came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and felt (this act of mine) as something grievous I said: Messenger of Allah, should I not grant her freedom? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Bring her to me. So I brought her to him. He said to her: Where is Allah? She said: He is in the heaven. He said: Who am I? She said: Thou art the Messenger of Allah. He said: Grant her freedom, she is a believing woman.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-29-04, 04:46 AM

will be better if one learns.

ouf! progres.

Sufi, do you agree with Doomdayx?

it is not the reason. don't worry it is written in everyone's inner and outer world, it will be protected in any way. the problem is to be able to read it truly.

lol.

read [41.53] (We shall show them Our signs upon the horizons and in their souls....)
btw, afaq does rather mean horizon (outside world) as in sufi's translation.

Subhana LLah. Sufi, where did you get that translation? And! see why it is indispensible to understand Arabic in order to really understand the Qur'an.

fine. but do not try to limit reading the quran into one language.

Reading the translations of the "meanings" of the Qur'an can be done in many a language. Reading the Qur'an only in Arabic.

Understanding (as in interpretting) cannot be without the Arabic text of the Qur'an.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-29-04, 04:49 AM

I'll be back for more.

:m:

path

10-29-04, 06:31 AM

Possible common ground for you all?

The Multiple Understandings of the QUR'AN
Generally it is believed by many, if not all, Muslims that there is one authentic interpretation of the Qur'an. It is far from true. Even the closest companions of the Prophet (PBUH) differed from each other in understanding various verses. Also, in Islam, since there is no concept of official church, no one interpretation can command following of a majority of Muslims, let alone all Muslims. There is hardly any major issue on which Muslim 'ulama (scholars) do not differ. These differences, more often than not, are due to different interpretations of the Qur'anic text.
It is because of this that every sect or school of thought has its own orthodox and liberal followers. There is Shi'ah orthodoxy or Sunni orthodoxy, Isma'ili orthodoxy or Bohra orthodoxy, Hanafi orthodoxy or Shafi'i orthodoxy and so on. But that's not all?now there are scholars with modern and liberal thinking that are looking at the Qur'anic text from modern and liberal perspectives. And some feminists or those working for empowerment of women read the Qur'an from feminist points of view.
There are various reasons for this. Firstly, the Qur'anic text is very rich and can be understood in many ways. Secondly, its language often tends to be symbolic or allegorical, and hence these symbols and allegories carry rich social and cultural meanings, and its shades of meaning can change with different socio-cultural backgrounds. Thus often social and cultural factors can play an important role in the understanding of the Qur'anic text. Those scholars who have been brought up in modern societies with their own intellectual traditions tend to understand the text differently from those who studied the text under medieval ethos.

Here (http://www.freemuslims.org./document.php?id=42)

Pardon the interruption, carry on.

robtex

10-29-04, 04:20 PM

path

10-29-04, 07:00 PM

surenderer

10-29-04, 07:36 PM

I didn't post after making this thread because Surender did such a complete job of answering that I figured...ok got an answer case closed. But this thread and since grown and taken a new path and I found another question buried in here that I was curious about.

It is the notion that to understand the quran well or mabye even adquately you must speak arabic. I have a copy of the quran that I am reading and it is in both english and arabic. The reason for the arabic, the aurthors who translated said, is that for it to be a true quran it must have the orginal arabic in it but of course since it was being sold to American readers here in the states it had a translation for us to understand and learn from. So my quran has arabic on the left and english on the right. I of can only read the english and read so many pages every week in english.

The question is, for those of us who don't read arabic and are not planning to learn it, can we truely understand the Islamic relgion and if not are the non-arabic reading, speaking Muslims true muslims?

Most English Korans say "inspired by" or "interpetation of" etc...... as I have said countless times in this thread certain words just dont translate from one language to another....at least not with the same meaning. I actually believe that non-muslims are suppose to read an English Koran.....I did before I reverted to Islam....but once I became a Muslim I needed to learn more in-depth what the Creator wanted from me as a Muslim so I then began to learn Arabic. Although any copy of the Koran deserves respect English one (since it's really not the literal word of the Creator per se) isnt the same as an Arabic one and is usually treated differently. So I guess what I'm saying is that the steps that non-Arabic speakers usually take (at least the ones I know) are 1st read an English Koran and then after one accepts Islam then begin to learn Arabic.....Hope that answers your questions :m:

Oh and to answer your last question....yes I think non-Arabic muslims are true Muslims (for one muslim to tell another muslim that he isnt a true muslim is a serious charge) but I still think they need to Learn Islam to avoid misinterpetations :cool:

peace to you

surenderer

10-29-04, 07:56 PM

Islam is an arabic religion, I know our muslim members disagree but I have said it before.

I actually dont totally disagree with you Path.....But I never said that Non-Arabic speaking Muslims arent true Muslims but in order to know the exact words from the Creator then yes.....a Muslim should learn Arabic

The arguments that you need to learn arabic or it was done to keep it pure just don't address this question, remember allah is all powerful etc..

But it has worked and is growing for over 1400 years

then why was that message restricted to arabic if it was a message for ALL mankind from a deity who is All knowing and all powerful.

Why is Arabic a restriction.....Who ever said that if you DONT learn arabic you are going to Hell?....but if one is a muslim and wants to learn what the Creator reveled to the Prophet(pbuh) then why would one want that translated when they can learn for themselves?

Sufi

10-30-04, 02:34 AM

Reading the Koran in true sense is reading the SPIRITof the KORAN. Not the literal words. Reading the literal words in Arabic is a zhikr. But to be able to “READ” the Koran, it is necessary to consider the purpose for which the verses regarding a particular event were revealed, and the benefits that these verses aim to provide man and women with. All the evaluations must be based on these facts.

The Koran did not start with its communication in Arabic. It always is existent in the essence of the universe and will last there until doomsday. This SPIRIT was READ and COMMUNICATED to people by all Rasuls and Nabis with the tongue of their people. (See 14:4) so that it must be reflected upon.

Mohammed did not write the Koran. He READ the SPIRIT of the KORAN since he was revealed the first command: READ (iqra), and communicated it to people for along 23 years. Jesus did not write a book, the READ the same book written in his own essence as well as in the universe (see 41:53) and communicated it to people with their language. All Nabis and Rasuls read the same system that operates for us. The commands are not sent by a separate god from above. All our misunderstandings and misdeeds are caused by our imagination of a separate god, to which our egos convince us to boost its feeling of specialness.

The Koran tells the system of Allah (known as sunnatAllah) and the laws that operates in life and that all humans are subject to, knowingly or unknowingly. Those laws existed always even before the revelation of the Koran to Mohammed (pbuh). Without understanding this fact one cannot truly evaluate the message given in the printed book, and you are fooled into thinking that the word Koran refers to the printed book you have in your bookcase. On should look behind the words to READ the SPIRIT of the Koran.

As a result of our failure to understand the "SPIRIT of the Koran", the Koran is not actually READ and thus, people hold onto its surface verbalism, literal meaning. The unfortunate consequence is that the given message is lost!

When need arises to create a law, the main factor in its establishment is in fact the SPIRIT of such a law, which demands that law to be established. An adequate fashion of rendering (statement) is determined in connection with that SPIRIT, that is the prospect of thought, and it is verbalized and therewith an article of law is brought into existence…

When a judge needs to exercise this law, he establishes a connection between the given event and his own perspective of judicious reasoning about that event and makes a judgment based on the main reason that has formed the law.

If a judge sets his opinion about an event by taking the law within the surface verbalism rather than respecting the SPIRIT of that law, he is most likely to MISJUDGE!

A judicial decision must be based not on the literal aspect of a law but on its SPIRIT!

Laws exist along with their SPIRITS. If they are taken in MERE VERBALISM, DEVIATIONS from the goal will result! The conscience of a judge is there to help the judicious reasoning of an event be based on the SPIRIT of law!

In the same way, to be able to “READ” the Koran, it is necessary to consider the purpose for which the verses regarding a particular event were revealed, and the benefits that these verses aim to provide man and women with. All the evaluations must be based on these facts.

Every INDIVIDUAL is responsible of READING the Koran in this sense for themselves, of which the signs are shown to them in their outer and inner worlds, until it is clear to them that the whole oneness is the real. (See 41:53) To make excuses for the mistakes that it was the practice of other Muslims in their surroundings, is of no importance. Learning the system of life by following the Koran, rather than by following the Muslims is essential for every human being. Those who fail to do so will suffer its consequences in the Hereafter, when they see they survived without a physical body.

path

10-30-04, 04:04 AM

But it has worked and is growing for over 1400 years

a testament to the gullibility of the human species ;)

Why is Arabic a restriction.....Who ever said that if you DONT learn arabic you are going to Hell?....but if one is a muslim and wants to learn what the Creator reveled to the Prophet(pbuh) then why would one want that translated when they can learn for themselves?

Because it is not my or the majority of humanity's native tongue (and never will be) how powerless is a god that can't even manage more than that. Why shouldn't humanity ask for a message that they can understand without having to adopt a foriegn language. It is just ludicrious "hey look we have gods real message.......but ...uhhh he didn't give us a copy in your language so you have to learn ours....hey while you are at it dress like us....and have the same moral code as us and make a pilgrimage to our lands etc etc...

Bruce Wayne

10-30-04, 04:35 AM

The question is, for those of us who don't read arabic and are not planning to learn it, can we truely understand the Islamic relgion and if not are the non-arabic reading, speaking Muslims true muslims?

Yes you can.

The issue we are discussing here is not that of understanding the religion of Islam or the Qur'an. What is at hand here is that these individuals believe in something that contradicts the Qur'an, which is their problem. But since they claim it is based on the Qur'an, then they must back it up. And in that are still failing.

Now the point is that in order for them to prove their fantasy/theory they must have a very very deep understanding of the text. Something as a native speaker I don't claim. It is not something that you just do. It takes total dedication. So we are not speaking about understanding the Qur'an or the religion. But about a lunatic perception that parasites on the Qur'an without any qualification.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-30-04, 05:12 AM

Islam is an arabic religion, I know our muslim members disagree but I have said it before. If it was truly god giving his last message (he has unlimited power you know) then why was that message restricted to arabic if it was a message for ALL mankind from a deity who is All knowing and all powerful. The arguments that you need to learn arabic or it was done to keep it pure just don't address this question, remember allah is all powerful etc..

Robtex, path and me have already debated this issue elsewhere. You can find that here: http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38048
If you haven't yet, you will also get a better view of path's take on the subject (of Islam in general)

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-30-04, 05:17 AM

path, forgive me for not yet tackling your post in the http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=41630. I will. It is just soo rich with insights. :D

:m:

Doomdayx

10-30-04, 10:46 AM

surenderer

10-30-04, 11:26 AM

you mullah guys,
u are trying to turn the universal religion of peace into one of the hundreds of tribal religions in the world because of your ignorance.
i have a question for you!
i am keeping the complete book the quran in arabic in my computer, plus sound files. my computer can read it comletely by heart in arabic. do you believe that my computer is a better muslim than those non arabic speaker muslims, in this case?

That the best you can do? Dont know why you call us "mullah guys" since me and Bruce only quote the Koran ( or interpetation of since you dont know Arabic)in our posts.....guess you must find that offensive...anyway please explain these ayats:

[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

I never said that Muslims who dont know Arabic are not Muslims or even bad Muslims but what I am sayng is that the Koran says (even in English versions) that the Koran was reveled IN ARABIC and as I have posted that it was done so that we can understand it better....now seeing as too how the Koran says this either A. you are saying the Koran is wrong....or B. you are claiming that you have knowledge other than what is written in the Koran

ilâ l-liqâ'

Bruce Wayne

10-30-04, 03:35 PM

everneo

10-30-04, 04:01 PM

please explain these ayats:

[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

The audience then were the arabs who can understand only arabic.

The quran was not corrupt not because it is in arabic, but because of the vigilance & believing Allah's assurance that he would protect the quran.

Learing quran in arabic is preferred; but that does not give any superiority over non-arabs in understanding what Allah is telling. If this is not correct then i have to agree with path that Allah belongs to arabs.

Doomdayx

10-30-04, 04:34 PM

.anyway please explain these ayats:

[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

now seeing as too how the Koran says this either A. you are saying the Koran is wrong....or B. you are claiming that you have knowledge other than what is written in the Koran

ilâ l-liqâ'

first, do not take refugee in throwing your slanderings on me all the time. i can understand arabic, though i am not native. you do not know me. what kind of a morality you have that you try to base your insertions on your lies about me all the time when you do not have an answer?
is it so difficult for you to talk honesly without jumping into judgments and slanderings about matters you are without any knowledge at all? is this wat you understood of muslimism?

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.
why do you try to push the discussion toward a point of accusing your opponent with saying the quran is wrong? any idiot with the smallest mind would not expect a muslim to say that. who are you serving, the satan?
you asked if we are claiming that we have knowledge other than what is written in the quran.
cannot you ask instead that you may have interpretation other than what is meant in the quran? are you so narrow minded to believe that you never make a mistake but the others?
does not the quran say that every rasul communicated with the tongue of their people? why do you always turn a blind eye to this and to the time and conditions when a verse is revealed? any idiot would not expect the quran be revealed in another tongue if the time and conditions then are considered! any idiot would not expect the quran be communicated in english to an arabic speaking people or it be communicated in more than one language simultaneously like a game?
why do you try to ban others from learning the truths?

Dont know why you call us "mullah guys" since me and Bruce only quote the Koran ( or interpetation of since you dont know Arabic)in our posts.....guess you must find that offensive..

you are mullah guys standing between non arabic speaking people and islam to ban others from turning to the universal religion of peace and learning the realities for themselves.
as a habit you are always cutting and pasting quran verses without the minutest thought involved in about what is meant with them. you stick to their verbalism. just be honest, you are not learning something new from reading the verses but trying to find some of them to use to serve you to prove you, you are right anytime.

I never said that Muslims who dont know Arabic are not Muslims or even bad Muslims

this shows that you are not only unable to understand the quran verses truly, but also unable to understand what your words come to mean! how can one become a muslim without having a chance to understand the quran?
you mullah guys, u are not saying your words are your understanding of the quran, you are saying yours is what the quran says, so trying to turn the universal religion of peace into one of the hundreds of tribal religions in the world because of our ignorance.

Doomdayx

10-30-04, 04:41 PM

you mullah guys, now clean up your dirt answering the questions you created.

mullah bruce wayne said, it wasn't him but god limited the quran into arabic and he believed it is a limited book, then what is your answer to path's question within the framework of your insertion?
Originally Posted by path
why was that message restricted to arabic if it was a message for ALL mankind from a deity who is All knowing and all powerful. The arguments that you need to learn arabic or it was done to keep it pure just don't address this question, remember allah is all powerful etc..

mullah surenderer said, "being someone who knows Arabic I know I can go to any bookstore and pick up an English Koran and read it and know that it doesnt say the same thing as an Arabic one". so what is your answer to

Originally Posted by robtex
The question is, for those of us who don't read arabic and are not planning to learn it, can we truely understand the Islamic relgion and if not are the non-arabic reading, speaking Muslims true muslims?

Doomdayx

10-30-04, 04:50 PM

i also wonder why you are so tolerant with translating the name allah into god without hesitation about the difference in their meaning, but not the rest of the quran!

Doomdayx

10-30-04, 04:55 PM

surenderer

10-30-04, 06:13 PM

first, do not take refugee in throwing your slanderings on me all the time. i can understand arabic, though i am not native. you do not know me. what kind of a morality you have that you try to base your insertions on your lies about me all the time when you do not have an answer?
is it so difficult for you to talk honesly without jumping into judgments and slanderings about matters you are without any knowledge at all? is this wat you understood of muslimism?

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.
why do you try to push the discussion toward a point of accusing your opponent with saying the quran is wrong? any idiot with the smallest mind would not expect a muslim to say that. who are you serving, the satan?
you asked if we are claiming that we have knowledge other than what is written in the quran.
cannot you ask instead that you may have interpretation other than what is meant in the quran? are you so narrow minded to believe that you never make a mistake but the others?
does not the quran say that every rasul communicated with the tongue of their people? why do you always turn a blind eye to this and to the time and conditions when a verse is revealed? any idiot would not expect the quran be revealed in another tongue if the time and conditions then are considered! any idiot would not expect the quran be communicated in english to an arabic speaking people or it be communicated in more than one language simultaneously like a game?
why do you try to ban others from learning the truths?

you are mullah guys standing between non arabic speaking people and islam to ban others from turning to the universal religion of peace and learning the realities for themselves.
as a habit you are always cutting and pasting quran verses without the minutest thought involved in about what is meant with them. you stick to their verbalism. just be honest, you are not learning something new from reading the verses but trying to find some of them to use to serve you to prove you, you are right anytime.

this shows that you are not only unable to understand the quran verses truly, but also unable to understand what your words come to mean! how can one become a muslim without having a chance to understand the quran?
you mullah guys, u are not saying your words are your understanding of the quran, you are saying yours is what the quran says, so trying to turn the universal religion of peace into one of the hundreds of tribal religions in the world because of our ignorance.

Doom,
Dang maybe you dont understand English either.......I only assumed you dont understand Arabic because you and Sufi were asked many times and you always ducked the question. What lies have I told about you? You take great offense to the fact that I say (as do over a billion other Muslims) that to avoid confusion a muslim should learn Arabic thus read the text of the Koran the way it was revealed. I have also shown you where the Koran states that the Koran was sent in Arabic to avoid confusion. Now why would the upset anyone who knows Arabic? Read my posts again and relax....Im not saying that Muslims who dont know Arabic are bad Muslims(i have said this several times) but what I am saying is that there is a difference between an Arabic Koran and a English one.....Go to the bookstore....why do most Koran's not in English say "Interpetation of the Koran" or "Inspired by the Koran" etc....In my opinion an English Koran is a gateway to learning Islam. If you are Muslim the when you go to Juma is it inm Arabic or English? But this conversation is kinda silly actually because if you do know Arabic( and I will assume you do because we know what the Prophet pbuh said about liars) then you know the difference between an Arabic Koran and a English one....Relax brother I never said you were a Bad Muslim. oh yea I see you have taken to calling me a "Mullah" ....now is that how you ask for respect? :(

surenderer

10-30-04, 06:20 PM

i also wonder why you are so tolerant with translating the name allah into god without hesitation about the difference in their meaning, but not the rest of the quran!

I have allready posted that I used the word "God" so that I dont alienate any non-muslim's posts that I answer to. When I quote the Koran however I always use Allah...Alotta people on these boards think there is a difference between "Allah" and what they call "God" I have since gone to saying Creator recently (cheack my posts)

surenderer

10-30-04, 06:22 PM

surenderer

10-30-04, 06:33 PM

mullah guys! where are your answers to these questions ?

do you think that the sytem of Allah and the laws or whatever you call them, which we are informed that operates in life and we are all subject to, did not exist before the revelation of the Koran to RasulAllah?

Did the laws the Koran informs us exist befroe its communication in Arabic? -since mohammed (pbuh) was not given any written material, then what was he asked to read by iqra in the beginning?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Sigh.....of course the Creator's Laws existed before they were given to the Prophet(pbuh) but how do you know them? From the Bible? nope...Torah? nope? Veda's? nope...... I look at it like this......I want to know what the Creator's message was to us in its Authentic form so I dont have to worry about translations (since you know Arabic you should know that an English Koran and a Arabic one arent 100% the same)

peace to you

skywalker

10-30-04, 09:39 PM

That is exactly where xians F$cked up their Bible. They translated one after another and in the end they lost every thing, all they got now is the message and word of PAUL instead of word of Jesus. I am just wondering did Bible come in 14 languages orignally? or veda? or Quran? Is this God's job to setup a printing press somewhere so one can get a copy of his choice? LOL :D

They all suppose to come in a single language, when you translate something it will lose its orginal meaning you will get the same message more or less, but Quran is not like Bible where you can find 60 editions and different versions from PG13 to Rated R. :cool:

There is no problem in Reading Quran in any languge, as long as you do not try to add or subtract anything from it. The end results are for Allah/God for to decide.

skywalker

10-30-04, 09:42 PM

i also wonder why you are so tolerant with translating the name allah into god without hesitation about the difference in their meaning, but not the rest of the quran!

Not sure about if any one got any problems with this first, I have never come across any one with this issue. By the way why are they not tolerant to this word? As long as it is Singular it fits the meaning. Allah Can be translated as God but not gods or Gods. :bugeye:

I have to admit that lots of muslims out there think that they own the religion and do change it to their tribal terms... very sad. But that is their individual choice and they will be held responsible for that. :cool:

Bruce Wayne

10-31-04, 02:51 AM

The audience then were the arabs who can understand only arabic.

The quran was not corrupt not because it is in arabic, but because of the vigilance & believing Allah's assurance that he would protect the quran.

Learing quran in arabic is preferred; but that does not give any superiority over non-arabs in understanding what Allah is telling. If this is not correct then i have to agree with path that Allah belongs to arabs.

I am repeating myself here, I have already adressed this before. One doesný need to understand the Arabic to be able to understand Arabic.

But to perform an in-depth exegesis, one surely need the language of Arabic. For instance, Once sufi claimed that "Laa Illaha Illa Llah" means: ther is no god. there is Allah" or something similar. I said it meant "there is no God, excepgt Allah". Now in order to argue that point we must grasp Arabic, What do you think everneo?

For that kind of exegesis, one needs a very deep grasp over Arabic, years of study of the language then of the tradition of Muhammad -peace be upon him- to put it in contest. One doesn't interpret the bible based on the chinese translation but on the original text.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-31-04, 03:00 AM

i also wonder why you are so tolerant with translating the name allah into god without hesitation about the difference in their meaning, but not the rest of the quran!

I already explained why. I also refer you to Skywalker's comment.

And here is more.

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

114.001
YUSUFALI: Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,
PICKTHAL: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
SHAKIR: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of men,

114.002
YUSUFALI: The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,
PICKTHAL: The King of mankind,
SHAKIR: The King of men,

114.003
YUSUFALI: The god (or judge) of Mankind,-
PICKTHAL: The god of mankind,
SHAKIR: The god of men,

114.004
YUSUFALI: From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),-
PICKTHAL: From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
SHAKIR: From the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan),

114.005
YUSUFALI: (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,-
PICKTHAL: Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind,
SHAKIR: Who whispers into the hearts of men,

114.006
YUSUFALI: Among Jinns and among men.
PICKTHAL: Of the jinn and of mankind.
SHAKIR: From among the jinn and the men.

"Ilaah" (not the same word as "Allah") means God.

:m:

Bruce Wayne

10-31-04, 03:37 AM

boy, you tend to own everything. religion, god, the language of god... all are yours. i suggest you to let them free and try to widen your horizons. your have turned the universal religion of peace into your tribal religion.

Since you seem slow. Here is wat I said again:

warning:This is not making you look smart.

But it seems to be my calling to chew everything for the teethless like you. When I say it is my country, I don't have to own it. I myself belong to it. But I don't own it.

SO you still insist. Why? because you did not understand my plain English? How then will you understand the Qur'an, I might ask?
Or is it because you don't care to understand. And that you think that as long as you keep repeating yourself you will be believed?
Both don't speak well of you.

that reflects your understanding of sunnah. based on my learnings from the prophet i never chose to call anyone otherwise once he says he is muslim.

Says the one, who equates creation with The Creator.

you are confused again. if you are not mohammedan you are not. (btw, look it up in an english dictionary for mohammedan) :D

Check what the dictionnary says about "Turk": "one who is cruel or tyrannical", In Dutch it says turk also means dumb. This shows that dictionnaries are nothing more that conventions. And the mohameddan convention is issue of a tradition which says that Muslims view Mohammad -peace be upon him- as the christians view Jesus- peace be upon him. That is not true. Mohammad, is but a messenger as were many before him. Capisce?

that's good for you. (though most difficult). let us see then how you apply it to your perspective and attiudes and stop backbiting and throwing slanderings on other muslims whom you have no idea other than their names.

Exactly. I don't have anything agaisnt your person. It is you poor understanding and argumentation I challenged. And then you became all defensive. And came up with terms like Mullah boys (wasn't that supposed to be backbiting??)

as you do not like to put it as a label, start practicing the lessons i quoted about allahs presence everywhere.

That is the thing. You have failed to provide a valid argumentation for that based on the Qur'an.

open your mind, there are hundreds of tribal religions in the world today. think about what it means to be the unviersal religion of peace for all humankind.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat that. Islam is universal. The Original text of the Qur'an is in Arabic. You don't like that, that is your problem, I take the words of Allah as they are and not as -dwerling dervish- Hulusi tells me.

:m: