I skimmed through the book Give a Boy a Gun (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0689811128/qid=1017326577/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8583269-5264936) and in the conclusion it lists ways to stop school violence. While I did not read the entire work thoroughly, one of its suggestions is for schools to have zero tolerance teasing policies. This seemed ridiculous to me because children are beasts and don't appear to develop empathy until well into their teen years.

I've known a lot of kids, both from my own childhood years and children of my friends and relatives, and roughly 90% of them inspire mad visions of going back in time to their birth and stuffing them into a sack, to be subsequently dropped from the nearest bridge spanning deep water. The problem is, it's not their fault that they're snotty little brats...the areas of their brains that control judgment and empathy aren't very well-developed until late childhood.

I don't condone teasing, or the more intensive variant of harassment, but zero tolerance in any situation is trash and doesn't help. What exactly would "zero tolerance" entail when it is applied toward teasing and/or bullying? My guess is virtually any insult would end up being defined as teasing. Virtually any attempt at humor as well.

Your thoughts?

Peace.

You're in the USA, yes? Wouldn't a ban on teasing go directly against that whole constitutional freedom of speech thing?

*Snickers*

What is this 'Constitution' that you refer to? We must protect the children! It is for the children!!!!

*Cthulhu sweeps a tentacle in to drag a few of the mangy brats away to R'yleh for a snack*

No, freedom of speech is more or less nonexistant in schools. Dress codes, for instance, violate the protection of speech but many schools have them.

And zero tolerence is indeed trash. It leads to such travestys as expulsion for having bread knives.....

Showing less tolerence for teasing would probably help though.

Small kids can be little monsters when it comes to other kids (I recall a particular little mutant I know who had a distinct speech impediment, but enjoyed making fun of 'retawds'.:rolleyes: )

Some problems with the concept of zero tolerance for teasing: People are all different. What constitutes 'teasing' to one person is perfectly acceptable to another. Especially with kids. I joke w/kids all the time. My son was very used to some one pretending not to see the county fair coming up on the side of the road etc. A niece of mine was not used to teasing of any kind, even the 'I can't see you' kind.

Some things are meant as fun, others are not (reference to above comment about humor).

It will be impossible for them to totally eradicate all teasing (the authorities are not in every place), which means either you're going to get into a 'he said' 'she said' situation on a minute by minute basis (which doesn't leave a whole lot of time for education), or you'll ignore some egregious behavior.

Part of what the school needs to be able to do is to help students learn to maneuver through the adult world. Joking and teasing are part of it. A woman I know (who has autism) does not understand the concept of a joke, which is a detriment to her in the work place, as she takes absolutely everything everyone says literally.

On the other hand, I think it's inappropriate for a teacher/authority figure to ignore the absolutely cruel things kids say to each other when it's happening. And, I also think that a certain amount of 'teaching' and 'investigation' should go on. When you have a student who is/will be the obvious object of scorn, it's better thing to do to educate all about accepting differences, and how to be kind to others.

Peace.

while a world of no discrimination and or no teasing sounds wonderful, the world isn't close to it. Even the more mature adult's have some that still do it at different levels.

Another fun-filled example of “zero-tolerance" hysteria: Public school officials nationwide are banning children from playing "cops and robbers," citing zero-tolerance policies for anything resembling violence at school. (Full text here (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20020329-86368411.htm)):sigh:

What fun filled game do the schools think they are going to create to fill the void of cops and robbers? Administration should know, and continue to accept that the game is one that has been played through for generations."If you just look at intent in these cases, none of these kids would be guilty of anything." Attorneys with the ACLU agree.Peace

Have YOU ever been bullied?

Im just asking because you don't seem to be able to empathys with the victoms.

EVERYTHING that can be done SHOULD be done to wipe that sort of behavior out.

I know what im talking about i was the victom of it

one boy in grade 6 terifyed me so much that although i lived 2 doors from the school i had to walk the long way arounf the school and hide in a bush while the kid walked down my street

It was some of what has made me such a timid person in situations that i am unfamilar with.

This has afected my ability to get a girlfriend, Job interviews and a lot of other things

Originally posted by Asguard
you don't seem to be able to empathys with the victoms.I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion as I specifically stated that "I don't condone teasing, or the more intensive variant of harassment." My point is that zero-tolerance policies have historically not resolved the issues they have been aimed at, and quite frequently become ridiculous in their application.

The complaint that I have with zero tolerance isn't that "something's being done". The complaint is that something's being done that allows for absolutely no gray areas, and punishes some students unjustly.

Students who are suspended for leaving their hunting knife in their car and forgetting it's there are victims of zero tolerance for weapons. Students who haven't had much exposure to other races, cultures or religions who ask a Jewish student an innocent question about something they've heard their parents say about Jews and are suspended are victims of zero tolerance for harassment.

It's an excuse for school administrations to not have to think about what an individual student has done, or to listen to what really happened. It's sloppy reasoning and scattershot discipline. It's a substitute for what educators should be doing to combat racism, sexism, homophobia, harassment and physical threats: educating.

Peace.

Sorry goofyfish I shouldn't have said that but I am REALLY sick of older people saying that bulling and abuse "builds character". All it did for me was destroy my life completely.

Originally posted by Asguard
Sorry goofyfish I shouldn't have said that but I am REALLY sick of older people saying that bulling and abuse "builds character". All it did for me was destroy my life completely.

I agree. Life was hell for me through the 6th and 7th grade. Later, I was more popular after I moved. It wasn't fun having someone following me down the school hall yelling inappropriate words. Zero tolerence might help, but I really have no strong feelings towards it. It has its good sides, and its bad sides.

The answer: Judo classes, and less restrictive rules on fighting in school. ;)

Dosn't really help when the person is twice my build

It will when you get good at it. I've been beaten by people half my size :(

Originally posted by The-Hybrid
The answer: Judo classes, and less restrictive rules on fighting in school.So you would promote additional aggression to resolve the problem? Could you elaborate?

Peace.

I've been around long enough to have seen what I consider to be an
inverse relation between youth violence and the suppression of juvenile
male violence. What's happened to 'boys will be boys' and the acceptance
of an occassional bloody nose or skinned knuckle?

Without the possibility of establishing social status at a relatively young
age, like between six and eight, are we not encouraging older, like early
teen, more violent ways of establishing status or the 'righting of wrongs'?

Just idle thoughts (maybe very idle).

Take care :(

Why allow any behavior that encourages the development of "social status"? We are thinking, reasoning (occasionally) beings. Why not get rid of it all together?

...and please try to answer without refering to me as a dreamer. :D

Peace.

Really, I'm not sure I like the idea of dumping social status. I should have more rights than murderers and rapists.

Originally posted by goofyfish
So you would promote additional aggression to resolve the problem? Could you elaborate?
Yes. To an extent (no guns, knives, etc).

Originally poster by Chagur
What's happened to 'boys will be boys' and the acceptance
of an occassional bloody nose or skinned knuckle?
Wouldn't it be nice if it were that simple? The only thing that kept me from beating on some people was the fact that I'd get kicked out of school.

Thank you everyone. You have just proved what a loving and caring group of people this world is. I am REALLY sick of the atitude that says it good for you or it s unaviodable. Did NO_ONE read my post. How was it good for me? It might very well have been one of the facters that lead to my suicide atempt. I gess no-one in tis sociaty cares though

Asguard, I don't think anyone is claiming that teasing is beneficial.

I know it isn't. It made me extremly shy for a few years, before I realized what was wrong and fixed it.

Now, I took Hybrid's approach, and fought back. The schools are nasty enough to boys who get into fights - little girls are treated horridly. I was suspended, let's see, three times for fights that I didn't even start.

But I don't think that allowing kids to fight back is enough. I don't believe in 'zero tolerance', but I don't see a problem with getting medieval with the little brats. Punish the perpetrators, says I.

gess you were lucky if you could get over it. It STILL effects me and i haven't been at school for 2 years (and it stoped about year 10). I am shy of pushing my self forward in new situations STILL. Tempary_illsion is my first girlfriend EVER (im 19 and shes my first girlfriend). I STILL have trobble in job interviews. My selfestem is NOTHING. I was suicidle untill only a few months ago.

I not talking short term effects here but VERY long term ones

Oh and alowing me to fight back wouldn't have helpped unless they were going to TEACH me how to fight first

Oh I am still getting over it. I still have problems with assertiveness and shyness. I still prefer to be alone or with a small group of people than with a large number of people, and I am still rather withdrawn.

Good luck Asguard.

So what are your suggestions for remedies? As a manager, I tell my employees not to bring me a problem without offering a solution. It may not be the right solution or the best solution, but it forces them to think about their complaint themselves.

School bullying? Even if the best idea you come up with is to break a finger every time a bully beats someone up, at least there is thought occurring.

Should there be a Peer Court? A court composed of classmates of the bully/victim could determine assessments and punishment. It might have a much stronger effect on the bully to be punished by his or her own cohorts than by adults and the "Don't be a tattletale" factor is also largely eliminated. Peer Courts also tend to hit a good balance (kids can be very strict with each other, yet are unlikely to impose ridiculous standards such as some of the "zero-tolerance" antics of adults).

How about increased supervision. Everybody knows kids get bullied at recess, during lunch, and immediately after school. But there are relatively few teachers watching because at these times they're in their offices grading papers or taking mental health breaks. And I don't begrudge them. But if there were more adults available, there would be less opportunity for bullying.

Surely I'm not the only person with ideas... let's hear 'em!

Peace.

This way they are starting to deal with it in Vic. Suspention is automatic (no little detentions for this), if bad enough you are expelled and the police WILL get involved as will the DOE.

Finally they are starting to take it VERY seriously

"Why allow any behavior that encourages the development of 'social status'?"

It has been tried, and it didn't work ... Comrade.

That is, except in the early kibbutzs.

Take care ;)

And, I don't think of you as a dreamer,
just an idealist in an imperfect world.
<<<< Welcome to the club. >>>>


1400th post

"We will one day be a nation without classes and social division,
and you must not let such classes develop among you."

Adolph Hitler, 1934 Nuremberg Rally

Hypocrisy personified!

Take care ;)

I spent years as both the victim and attacker. All in all I got over being the victim because I changed as a person. I grew more mature and so did my peers. I suppose loosing a ton of weight didn't hurt either, haha.

Asgaurd here's the thing; unquestionably I believe in the freedom of speech. Until someone becomes reasonably hurt emotionally or physically. By reasonably I mean as in someone didn't take it like a little wimp. Has anyone else found that our society is becoming very weak? A woman a little while ago got a guy fired for walking into the office and saying 'hey good-lookin'. That just disgusts me.

I am a strong person.

I can walk into any situation and take control of at least myself.
I am phased by very little.
That said, I was bullied at school from the age of 8 until 14 and believe me people that's a fuckin long time to be so down.

Tyler,
It's not about taking it like a wimp it's something you feel you have no control over which is why you can be beat on by people half your size.
Don't get me wrong, if I could go back and change things I'd beat the living shit out of every damn sonnovabitch who even looked at me funny. But that's just fantasy. I cant do that. except one time I got one in a bar one day but that's another story.

Maybe the things I spoeak of did toughen me up.
Maybe I'm the person I am because of it. It still wasn't worth it!

ASGUARD.

It goes away! (almost)
Keep doing all you can and believing in yourself and T.I.
Her love will help and love of yourself will also. I hope you have some left and don't believe what they tried to make you believe about yourself.

They were lousy, sad shits, but they're gone now.
I hope you can move on and let me know if I can help.

I envy you people who never had this problem
I really do!

What is going on here is an attempt to legislate morality and ethics. It doesn’t work that way.

To me one of the problems is that the parents are held responsible but have no say in the teaching of their kids through a good sound "whack on the butt" when they are young and the most impressionable. The removal of such corporal punishment has led to a decline in the "good manners" of children in the presence of their elders. Now to try and fix the situation a "zero tolerance for taunts" is not help. Well meaning leftists have taken the "right" to discipline a child, in the effort to teach right from wrong, out of the hands of the parents and then when the teachers can not get the kids to behave and try to learn. They further muddy the situation with well meaning useless drivel as has been presented above. It does not take a genius to figure out the problems will not be addressed or "fixed" by such misguided rules.

bbcboy
Thanks and yes TI is a great help to me

Wet1
We ALREADY legislate ethics. Every law is an ethical thing. Why is rape and murder illegle or drug use?

I agree with Tyler and Wet_1.
There is no longer any discipline in the younger generation. They're allowed to do as they like, due in no small part to a very loud minority claiming to be the "silent majority" (dont they all?) who say that disciplining our children is wrong.

Result : a new generation of mouthy, disrespectful, deceitful, little shits who dont know right from wrong. Thats a sweeping generalisation, of course. Forgive me. Here in Perth, Australia, there are increasing numbers of break-ins into the home of elderly residents who cant defend themselves. They get beaten and robbed, and often left for dead. the offenders then get one or two years in jail, and in some cases a suspended sentence (if that) because they were "underage at the time of the incident".

What a load of codswallop. If they WERE taught properly when they were young they might have turned out a little better. Our parents cant discipline their kids, because their kids are likely to sue them (and WIN, which makes it even more comically sad) and the poor teachers have no chance in hell in a court of law if they so much as LOOK at a kid the wrong way, let alone discipline a bully in the schoolyard.

What the hell do people expect? Well turned-out, respectful, law-abiding citizens? When we've TAUGHT these kids that no-one can do a damn thing if they're stopped, and better yet, if someone DOES do something about it they can make a packet of cash out of them in court? Give me a break.

Sorry to hear about your experience Asguard... if I had a choice in the matter the bullies would have been dragged by the ear into the principles office, and taught the error of their ways. Happened to me once or twice in high school I remember.. sure as hell didnt do me any harm and I thought twice about doing it again.

but wait a minute... I can make a packet out of that principle now... now what was his name again, i think I'll sue him... I'm so obviously scarred for life....

HEY im one of those youth

am i evil? do i care for no-one but myself?

I would like to think that i have a better apresation of the world than some people older than me. That is due mostly to my parents NOT my school

It always anoyed me when older people said that kids should be seen and not herd while they destroyed MY world. They would die off and its me and my kids who would be left with the concequences.

But Barney does have a point.
Kids can no longer, legally be dicplined by a good whack because bleeding hearts around the world say it's assault and battery.

So what options are left?

Bribery... If you're good you get this.
This only leads many to assume that material goods are very important. So if the right label of clothes can't be afforded by the parents, kids go out and beat up granny to get it.

Detention or grounding.
This only gives the little shits too much time alone to plot their next heist.

I was given a regular belt during childhood. I wasn't abused it just taught me there was such a thing as wrong, and that other people in the world deserved my respect.

It's what makes me respected now

Hitting is 'wrong' because there are other ways to discipline a child without violence. Actually, good parenting should lead to minimal need of disciplining. Parents are just lazy.

I don't think it's just a matter of being lazy, there's also single parents who have to work. Dual parents who have to work. most kids these days are brought up during their formative years in nurseries kindergardens extended family members, and in some cases left to fend for themselves.

Parenting is a nightmare
Good parenting is worse because there is a constant need to know that the child is well and cared for.

To say parents are lazy is only a half truth and speaks of the disrespect people are alluding to here.

er.. yeah Tyler... and the kids of today are more law-abiding, useful citizens than the ones of 30 years ago, without all this "hitting", arent they - those non-whacking methods are working soooo well... :rolleyes:


I'm not saying bash the little buggers, I'm saying a whack never did anyone any harm. Theres a difference.
I KNEW I'd done something wrong when I copped one... it didnt hurt, but it surprised me into looking at what I was doing.

and BBCBoy has a VERY good point there as well. A parent in the home is almost mandatory... but we're all too busy chasing dual incomes these days, in order to buy them their Nikes, Pokemon and Mc'Donalds...

Hell yes, my mother stayed home to look after us and when i have kids one of us will stay home. I think that the cause of kids that don't care is parents who don't have TIME to care

One answer doesn’t fit all cases. What is appropriate for a newborn is not appropriate for a toddler. What is appropriate for a toddler is not appropriate for an eight year old, or a teen.

Even at similar ages people respond differently to punishment and reward. Some react to punishment by becoming more stubborn. Pain only makes them madder.

Ideally, individual differences would be recognized and appropriate motivation provided. (Even with "ideal" upbringing some individuals will become unsavory adults.)

In this non-ideal world, the people who apply punishment often do so out of anger or frustration, not for training or motivation. The person being punished learns that hurting others is an appropriate response to anger and frustration. Could even learn that inflicting pain is an appropriate means of gaining and displaying power.

Unfortunately rules and laws don’t allow the flexibility of applying good sense in the treatment of other humans. Legislating proper behavior doesn’t work. Depending on the wisdom of parents and teachers to discipline appropriately doesn’t work. The world muddles on.

We should just stop breeding altogether. That'll show 'em:D

Dr Evyl, that's coz you're a big girly weiner! :p

Barney: Do you have any sort of evidence that shows that parents who hit thier children raise less violent children?

Oh no? Pure emotionalism? What a pity.

Bbcboy: Oooh, they have to work, do they? Shouldn't have had children then, should they?

Don't have the smelly beasts if you aren't going to raise them.

*Wordlessly hands Dr Evyl a business card*

We can really soak Adam for that comment!

*Rubs hands in glee and adds*

So, Adam, care to settle now, out of court? :D

Xev, you bring your violent tendenceies anywhere near me and I'll cry. :p

Dr Evyl, you're a grotty grotty person.

*Sniffles*

Adam's a meanie head! :p

*Raises an eyebrow in the direction of Dr. Evyl*

I'm a meany?! You're the one who threatened, evil woman! :<

I can't belive you said that.

Actually READ some of the posts here and else where and see what you think

(god i hope my GF dosn't read what you wrote then)

"Barney: Do you have any sort of evidence that shows that parents who hit thier children raise less violent children?

Oh no? Pure emotionalism? What a pity. "

And I suppose you have another theory on why today's kids seem a lot more out of control than yesterdays Xev?
If so, please, enlighten me.

I didnt really understand the emotionalism bit... I've mentioned this before, EVERYBODY is ruled by emotion. If you weren't, you wouldnt care what I said and you wouldnt be on this forum, because nothing would mean a damn thing to you. If you're going to hand labels out, check the fit on yourself first.

You appear to think that the absence of concrete evidence that lax disciplinary standards are contributing towards a soaring crime rate (particularly juvenile crime) means that it is NOT a root cause.

My question for you is : Given that this is a theory which has been raised time and time again, and that there seems to be a dearth of any others, do you have proof that it ISN'T?

I think you cannot say that teasing and verbal abuse is good or bad. It is a type of social discipline we cannot do without. It can be overdone and abused, but if removed alltogether, as DR EVYL put it:

"What kind of wimps are we trying to raise people to be?"

Everything is good in the right proportions. Teasing is one of those things, I think I am lucky that I was teased enough to understand to not do it to others. In the end, teach your children to be nice, but be nice yourself. In my high school, the popular crowd is the nice crowd... noone likes assholes...

Firstoff, are today's children more out of control than yesterday's?

Have you proven that? Have you even shown ONE IOTA of evidence, besides ancedotes (and we all know what ancedotal evidence is worth) that they are?

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the claiment.

Oh yes, and I have a couple of theories, but I want to see you justify your statements. It gives me this warm, fuzzy feeling to see people back thier assertions up with evidence. :)

"What kind of wimps are we trying to raise people to be?"


Some without the concept of 'the wimp' might be nice
People a littel more respectful and accepting of each other would be a boon too.

I know why not let's have a crack at world peace

Okay enough of the funny stuff

I'm not happy that I experienced what I did. The fact remains that for whatever reason I felt I had no power to change things at the time, and as I've mentioned I have had some cause to redress the balance :D

That was then, this is now and I've moved on. After the fact that I have this experience I now feel able to perhaps be of some help to those still going thru that stage of life, or its aftermath

And as loud as you shout it Dr, it's not just a case of "Pull yourself together" for a lot of people.

Try to have a little empathy in life and who knows the girls may be even more interested in that weiner:rolleyes:

People are becoming weaker, without a doubt. The old belief was that 'we have to be strong and fight for freedom.' Now it's more like 'you shouldn't have to fight for any right, you should not have to be strong at all'.

' Now it's more like 'you shouldn't have to fight for any right, you should not have to be strong at all'.


If it's a right then of course you shouldn't have to fight for it
That kind of speaks for itself, and it's not my point.

Strength is a very important thing. I just wonder why it has to be used as a defence all the time.

By strength I assume you mean feeling secure and stable and able to cope with life and not feel less than anyone else.

Funny that's what I think too;)

And this is key, I think:

The truely strong can respect weakness. We simply do not posess it.

Or we possess it in smaller quantities.

The truely stong are the survivors. Those that can survive anything, save death (duh!) and get back up and fight.

But the truely strong respect weakness and protect those who need their protection.

'If' has been posted here before, but I think it sums up strength nicely:

http://www.swarthmore.edu/~apreset1/docs/if.html

I never said that part was bad, did I?

My point is that without a need to be strong, people have become quite weak.

My point is that without a need to be strong, people have become quite weak.

Oh I agree completly, Tyler! What happened to the strong, silent type? He is probably getting in touch with his 'inner child' somwhere!

Grief counseling, telling people how you feel, not being afraid to cry, getting in touch with ones inner child, what the fuck is all this?

I realize that as a woman, I was never expected to behave the way I do. I realize that women are 'supposed' to be warm, nurtering, sweet and hyper-emotional.

*Sobs quietly and munches on chocalate while continuing*

But, bloody hell, they've gotten you guys believing that garbage too!

i belive NONE of that crap but NO ONE should be terifide to walk 2 doors down to their house. female OR male but i was

By the way to put it into perspective that kid actually tried to HANG me

Glad you think Kipling 'sums up strength nicely' I don't know of a better
description of what it takes to be a man.

As for the rest of the malarky, 'inner child', 'getting in touch', etc. Didn't
buy it then, don't buy it now. But then, I'm just a cranky old bastard.

Take care ;)

And you didn't try to kill him?

Interesting. :rolleyes:

How DID you respond?

Curious.

I got nothing against understanding oneself, but you don't have to be a wimp to do it!!!

Then again, people need something to make them feel secure. Who else has noticed the growing number of people who make a point to state thta they; "don't care what anyone thinks of me"? I'm willing to bet 99 out of 100 people who say this only say it because they want people to think that they dont care what people think of them. If they truly didn't care what anyone thought about them, they wouldn't have to say that.

i was TERIFIDE of him and as i said i hid behind a bush. he was HUGE and i WASN'T

He who fights and runs away...

...Doesn't get hung by a hulking great cousin fucker and will probably do well in life.
Well on Asguard Guard your ass long and prosper !! :D

In primary school I had one of those childhood "enemies". Many of us have them at some stage in school. This bastard was a tad too smart to simply come at me. He sicked his older brother on me after school. No, I didn't run, and I didn't do any miraculous ninja crap. I got my arse kicked. But I never gave up giving that punk whatever he gave to me, except for the big brother treatment; I never got other people to do my dirty work for me.

And now you have a limp!

i hate to push the difference but did you ever fear anything other than a black eye?

I was afraid for my LIFE (and so was my class room teacher at the time)

BBCboy: very good i would never have tought of that one, Maybe i should rename myself ANTguard (anthony is my real name):D

Originally posted by bbcboy
And now you have a limp!

But not from that incident. From one much like it though. I don't like teasing, I think teachers should try to stop it if they see it. But it may have helped me become the big tough macho man I am today. :)

But back to the limp, and other injuries. I don't run away, and I don't quit. Ever. So I collect injuries. *shrug*

Originally posted by Xev
Firstoff, are today's children more out of control than yesterday's?

Have you proven that? Have you even shown ONE IOTA of evidence, besides ancedotes (and we all know what ancedotal evidence is worth) that they are?

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the claiment.

Oh yes, and I have a couple of theories, but I want to see you justify your statements. It gives me this warm, fuzzy feeling to see people back thier assertions up with evidence. :)

Anecdotes? Dont believe I used any. What I do use is my eyes, which some people seem unable to do unless its to read some statistics someones cobbled together for them. I told you the situation here in Perth... several years ago respect for the elderly was at least at a point where, if you were going to rob an old person, you wouldnt feel the need to bash hell out of them before you left. It's happening quite a lot here lately... and the offenders are juveniles who often dont get jail terms or are let out after 3 months or so. 30 years ago cars were stolen (less often I might add) for a joy ride then abandoned somewhere. These days they're used in smash and grab raids and then burnt out. See the difference?

"Burden of proof is on the claimant"?
A robbery victim has to prove they were robbed?
From my point of view I'm not the claimant here... the "new" theories on child rearing are not working, you're claiming they are, and I'd like someone to prove ME wrong or YOU right. Perspective. We're BOTH claiming something.

What you're saying to me is that you wont believe the sky is falling in until someone does a case study on the phenomenom and publishes a paper, which is then studied, argued about, languishes in a filing cabinet for a few years until the arguing is done, brought out, dusted off, and finally displayed in a glass case in the middle of Times Square... only to be crushed flat when the sky actually falls on it. Whereas to me all you had to do was look upwards.

Thank you Douglas Adams for the inspiration for that last bit ;)

I still object to you genralising like that

Do you think that I don't care?
Do you think that I don't have a heart?

BY ADAM
But it may have helped me become the big tough macho man I am today.



If you hadn't said in five hundred posts how much you like women I'd be blushing by now :D

No offence re leg.
One of the main defences I've developed WRT the dickheads we're discussing here is a bitchy line and sometimes I just can't help myself. :D

I'm sure a strapping, macho buck like yourself can take it on the chin :D

See Ya Mate :)

Anecdotes? Dont believe I used any.

Look out, here comes one now!:

What I do use is my eyes, which some people seem unable to do unless its to read some statistics someones cobbled together for them. I told you the situation here in Perth...

Thanks for proving my point oh-so-well. I could tell you stories too, about nasty violent adults, but I won't.

"Burden of proof is on the claimant"?
A robbery victim has to prove they were robbed?

Well, you see, in most democracies, there is this concept called 'innocent until proven guilty'. The anology is remarkably precise...:rolleyes:

From my point of view I'm not the claimant here... the "new" theories on child rearing are not working, you're claiming they are, and I'd like someone to prove ME wrong or YOU right. Perspective. We're BOTH claiming something.

I never claimed anything about theories of child raising. Go back and read my posts, please.

What you're saying to me is that you wont believe the sky is falling in until someone does a case study on the phenomenom and publishes a paper, which is then studied, argued about, languishes in a filing cabinet for a few years until the arguing is done, brought out, dusted off, and finally displayed in a glass case in the middle of Times Square... only to be crushed flat when the sky actually falls on it. Whereas to me all you had to do was look upwards.

Umm, no, I am not. You are being a condescending ass, and commiting the 'straw man' fallacy as well. I have wasted enough time on you. If you care to back up your statements, I shall be happy to examine your evidence. If not, I have only one simple question:

What have you been concentrating and inhaling?

Bbcboy

It's a bit of a joke among my straight and gay friends here that I am Mister Tough-Guy. Any time a gay chap says something terribly fairy-ish, I say something like "You nancies need to go join the army. Be big and tough, like me! Grrr!" Or something else as silly. One friend admitted to owning a CD of Robbie Williams singing Sinatra. That prompted some of the harshest insults and jokes I've ever delivered, for him being such a queer bloody fairy. Part of the joke among them is that I stick to my principles no matter what. Some people will walk on by if they see a gang of little punks beating someone, for example, and I won't. I don't always come out on top. So I collect injuries. But I don't stop. I take these things very seriously, but it's still a bit of a joke among my friends.

Originally posted by Barney_TRubble

What you're saying to me is that you wont believe the sky is falling in until someone does a case study on the phenomenom and publishes a paper, which is then studied, argued about, languishes in a filing cabinet for a few years until the arguing is done, brought out, dusted off, and finally displayed in a glass case in the middle of Times Square... only to be crushed flat when the sky actually falls on it. Whereas to me all you had to do was look upwards.


I'd just like to point out that in that particular story, the sky was not falling. Chicken Little was wrong.

I wasnt actually referring to Chicken Little Adam.. douglas Adams wrote something in a similar fashion in one of the hitch Hikers books, dont remember exactly where but it made a lasting impression on me :)

AAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh........ look people, I'm done. see my new topic in this section... hopefully it will explain all.

Hahahah. I think the comment adam made was in joking manor.

Why?
because she had it to, and bad. Id tell you what i mean but thats not my place and its not fair on her. All i have a right to tell you is what IVE experianced and that wasn't nice either.

I think you two are talking at cross purposes, and it's rather amusing!

Psst, Eyvl, 'tis skill that matters most

Gess we are no better than animals if we feel that atitude is right. So much for having an evolved sence of purpose we are all just parisites who feed of the weakest. The diffrence is that we do it for fun not just for survile

Originally posted by DR EVYL


Why? Will she melt? Be offended? Will she get turned on? I'm really not sure what you're saying here. Is there some unposted rule here I'm not aware of?

Dr Evyl, my problems with bullying don't centre around myself being bullied as a child, even though I was, and bear the scars (emotional, physical, whatever) today.
My main problem is that my cousin was killed as a result of bullying, at the age of 9.
You said that being bullied helped you to grow up to become a stronger person, but what about the ones who never get the chance to grow up?

I HOPE that i can eventually get over it, all though it almost killed me and i almost killed myself before i met TI. Her cousin wasn't so lucky

That is no reason to just give up and not try. Do the police just give up on murderes because they can't catch them all? of corse they don't they take it one crime at a time. There is NO exscuse for not trying. Untill there is a perfect world there is room for improvement.

actully i would rather see philosophy made an important part (and yes stupidity SHOULD be illegle) and science more valued. Your brain should be more important than your money. At the same time this will never happen while the problems that exist in this world are there. Example if all the scientest get killed because they are not tanks (and most ARN'T) there will BE no world like you descibe. I would love to have been able to defend myself but then also I could have turned into the bullie then because i wanted power so much then (cause i had so little).

Still the way we are going nither of us will have to worrie about perfect worlds because the world bullies are going to kill us all.

i give up. Have a good life and hope no one decides that they don't like the look of you and kills you.

First off i don't know about your degrees (our law is just murder or manslaughter)

Second is asult illegle? Sexuall Harasment? Battery? (think that one is just civil)

Thes acts ARE illegle and so is bulling in the work place and now it is in schools to. THANK GOD that the goverment can get ONE thing right

Evyl:
So may we could just ask Osama bin Laden to stop teasing the US, and it will all get better.

That would fall under the "learn Judo and beat the bloody hell out of 'em!" category.

Sorry im not sure if these will work and i can't copy it for some reason

http://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/rhadmin/articles/files/02%20Exec%20Sum.pdf

http://www.eoc.vic.gov.au/rights/harassment.html

Im trying to find a sit i saw ages ago but am having trouble. will keep trying

Try this one
http://www.teensizzle.com/sizzle9/issues1.htm

If you were constantly made fun of, teased and called names, what would you do? Fight back? Smile and shrug it off? Fourteen year old Hamid Nastoh had trouble doing that. His brother Abdullah says Hamid "just took it". In the five page letter he left on his chest of drawers, he said, "Inside I cry".

According to his monther, Nasima, Hamid was teased because he was a good student, because he wore glasses, because he was "a geek". He had many friends – most of them girls – who said that he was "a nice guy to be around", "a sweetie". His friends and family suggest that it was because he was quiet and tended to have close friendships with girls that he was labeled gay and teased and bullied by a group of students in the Surrey BC school he attended.

On Saturday March 11th Hamid Nastoh couldn’t take it any more. He left a note on his dresser, went to the Pattullo Bridge near by and jumped off. The police found his body resting against a log in the Fraser River at 1 am.



Is this the sociaty we want?

Crappy as it is to say it, people suck, and life is painful because of that. I would like to see teachers in primary school dishing out one week suspensions for bullies, each and every time they see a bully bullying. I would also like people to get into their heads the idea that they can change their world if they only have the balls to do it. If someone bullies you, punch them in the nose. Kick them in the nuts. Grab the bastard's ear and rip it off. Even if the bully has ten friends backing him up, sooner or later you're going to hurt him and he may stop. Or maybe you'll just keep collecting injuries. But that's better than accepting it and living with it.

One thing I never understood about bullies in school. They only ever bully you when they have several friends backing them up, when they clearly outnumber you. In their attempts to appear big and brave and tough, they are clearly admitting to the world that they are too scared of you to face you on equal terms. By relying on accomplices, they admit their cowardice.

As for me... A few people tried to bully me a few times, but I hit them. One guy I got in a headlock and banged his head against a brick wall. Another I got in a headlock and punched him for a while. Another guy, I trashed his expensive racing bicycle. Yet another guy I just punched really hard, and after that we became not friends but at least we never bothered each other again.

I hate to say it, but while people suck, violence is a damn useful tool. Maybe it won't be necessary if our species ever gets over such dumb things. But for now it is.

And yes, I do realise that some people are simply too afraid to use violence in defence.

NO IM NOT DRINKING ITS ONLY 5 oclock in the afternoon

Clocks and watches are evil. I try not to pay much attention to time. Wine, however, is one of the best things we humans have ever done.

I have to go out to get some coke first (need it for my JB)

By the way under the leale difintion
asult is only the "threat" of doing something and that could just be of blowing smoke in someones face

The answer is to gain 50lbs, shave your head and get sozzled in the afternoon ?

DOH!!


Oh and Dr In my history as a Gay slut I had sexual encounters with over 1000 people and counting.
I don't think there's much you have to teach me :D

AND?

(i don't see a problem here)

Its not really the LAWS but the admistration that needed changing and it slowly IS being changed

explane what you mean because i don't understand.

What i mean is that complaints are being taken more seriously by teachers, employers and the police

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Asguard
actully i would rather see philosophy made an important part (and yes stupidity SHOULD be illegle) and science more valued.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I'm saying that intelligent people who enhance our lives should be rewarded with adolation. Successfully hitting a ball with a stick, or pretending to be someone else really good should not."

I disagree. Someone who has the ability to keep us all entertained is worthwhile, and perhaps EQUALLY so compared to someone who enhances our lives in other ways. The human animal is by nature competitive, and sport is a way for us to rid ourselves of excess agression left over from our "animal" selves, and, therefore, valuable when compared with the alternative.
Perhaps you were inferring that sportspeople (and entertainers in general) should be EQUALLY rewarded for enhancing our otherwise rather boring lives as those who use their intelligence to invent time or effort saving products? If so, I would agree.

Asguard... now now, be fair to stupid people - they have value too, if that value is recognised and cultivated ;)


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your brain should be more important than your money.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I wouldn't agree with that at all. Capitalism works just fine for me. "

Your brain ALLOWS you to take advantage of the system Evyl, our version of capitalism ensures that. If you have the ability to contribute in some way, then capitalism is the system by which you would be rewarded for that effort.

In a perfect world, brains would be merely a means by which to profit... as would be ANY means by which you could do so. "Unintelligent" people (if you wish to use that term) are usually in possession of some skill by which they have the means of survival. A welder, for example, has something to contribute.. as does the manager who organises the skill of the welder to build something lasting from which all can benefit. Without the welder, the manager is nothing... and without the manager, the welder's contribution is small, localised. Capitalism is the system by which both can profit, and, in a perfect world, profit equally, by means of the contribution of lasting benefit to ALL.
Wealth should be a by-product of overall value, not clever marketing and the abuse of others' skills.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the same time this will never happen while the problems that exist in this world are there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The odds of people becoming docile and non-confrontational are a lot more impossible."

"Impossible" is a defeatist term evyl... I prefer the term "Improbable", even if its only slightly less pessimistic. I, myself, have great hopes for humankind. In time, perhaps the odds might change a little yes?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Example if all the scientest get killed because they are not tanks (and most ARN'T) there will BE no world like you descibe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It was Wehrner VonBraun that made rockets, not Adoph Hitler."

And if Hitler had been a little more enlightened, he would have made better use of Von Braun than what WAS made of him, and others like him. Again, it is the downfall of our current sytem that rewards for excellence are misallocated. A proper use made of Von Braun would have meant Germany being the first on the moon in about 1965 rather than the USA in 1969.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would love to have been able to defend myself but then also I could have turned into the bullie then because i wanted power so much then (cause i had so little).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So we should punish everyone for one person's lack of self discipline?"

I think Asguard here may have meant something along the lines of "Power corrupts... and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
It is an unfortunate fact of life that someone who has been, however temporarily, a "minority" exhibits a far greater understanding of the trials faced by such people than someone who has not. In later life, this can translate and develop into a greater understanding of people in general, and by extension the world and its problems. A wide experience of life leads to a wider understanding of life in general, and relief that ones experiences, however painful, have led, hopefully, to wisdom rather than bitterness.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still the way we are going nither of us will have to worrie about perfect worlds because the world bullies are going to kill us all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So may we could just ask Osama bin Laden to stop teasing the US, and it will all get better"

Excuse my "blindness", but I dont see a reference to one side or the other in this statement?

I'm sorry, I'm incredibly drunk and completely forgot to change my nick. I was supposed to.. but hell, you'd all have picked me for my writing style at some stage anyway.
ah well... I'll stick with Barney....damn life is fun :)

Dr

I really don't think you wanna compare notes with me on this topic.... and besides, I think my girlfriend would get a little pissed if I was looking for more action.


THIS IS BRAGGING! :)

Well, you're close... I got a big weiner for the girlies...

THIS ALSO IS BRAGGING :)


Oh and Dr In my history as a Gay slut I had sexual encounters with over 1000 people and counting.
I don't think there's much you have to teach me

THIS IS CORRECTING A MISAPPREHENSION :)

You will also notice I said People not men.

And finally, why should I need to brag to you?

Surely to brag is to try and ellicit a feeling of superiority over the person you are addressing.

By your own admission I'm addressing an overweight, aggresive, alcohol abusing skinhead, from Nebraska.

If you live by the sword you die by the sword.
The pen, is mightier than the sword
Nuff said.

I don't think Dr Evyl said anything about abusing alcohol. In fact I think he quite likes it.

Yes i shouldn't have said that about stupidity, sorry

Did anyone notice that it was HITLER in charge NOT Wehrner VonBraun. He had more brains but not the power. Just a thought.

Thank you Barny, yes "Power corrupts... and absolute power corrupts absolutely" was EXATLY what i was getting at. Especially when you start with the NEED for power which is one of the results of bulling. Bitterness and desire for power, well for a long time anyway eventually you start to give into it and thats the point when despair sets in and eventually you can become suicidle. That was the patten i followed anyway.

Temp_illusion's cousin never had the chance. It was one fight he fell and hit his head and died a little while latter.

Yes i DIDN'T mean one side or the other. I was refering to ALL of them

If you live by the pen, you die by the pen?

:bugeye:

Ooh touch touchy :rolleyes:

Ok I admit I was a little OTT (I'd been drinking in the afternoon :D) But what is this fair share stuff?

Could someone define exactly what constitutes a fair share in the terms discussed?
And make it seem less like bragging for gods sake.:rolleyes:

Dr may you enjoy your superiority, your need seems greater than mine, otherwise you'd never bother to explain yourself to a mere minion like myself.

I'll just enjoy the fun times to be found here on the boards.

Oh, and in case anyone's wondering...
Pubic lice 22 years ago since then nada
It's not how often ya do it people, it's how safely:D

Tata

I wasn't wondering.

Nor was I, but I may as well to the PSA thing....

It's not how often ya do it people, it's how safely

Yes and no. Condoms have a small but real rate of failure, the more you expose yourself, the larger your chances of catching somthing grow.

Sex in this age, and indeed in the past, is a bit like Russian roulette. Using protection decreases your chances of getting shot, but slutting around (and I am the last person on earth to disparage slutting) increases them.

Promiscuity carries dangers, even when one is 'safe' about it.

Damn, that really sucks. :(

Sucks Xev?? Nay.

You do what you want. Otherwise life isn't worth living.

Then don't sleep around. That way you can't get STD's.

Asguard
Then don't sleep around. That way you can't get STD's.

This is true!

Tyler
You do what you want. Otherwise life isn't worth living.

This also is true!

Xev
Damn, that really sucks.

This is the worst truth of all ! :(

Dr
Fair share = a calculation of how much play the average sexually active heterosexual male got over a 20 year period.

More than my fair share = more than that average.

I can do the math, I just wonder with differences in cultural ethics and behavioral standards what equation you get.
How many partners/experiences is a fair share?

My question would be why you'd make statements you don't want a response to.

That would be rhetoric.

. Apparently there's some kind of clique here that I'm not aware of,

Surely your own site has its regulars and the occasional passing hit. I think there are a core group of about 30 boarders here who I could name top of my head, and yet the stats say many hundreds are registered. Is that the case with yours? I suppose it's a bit like a family in a way. (All families are bizarre)

This is how I waste time... "fun" is what I do when I'm not at my computer.

You're lucky, after doing three jobs a week all I can do is flop in front of this thing. Oh I know it's my choice to do 'em but I also choose to have nice things about me and take a holiday if I want one so the sacrifices must be made. Anyhow the states looks to be more geared up for fun (Even in Nebraska :D) This hole just sucks ya dry.

{Re: previous post...}I wasn't wondering.

Ah,
More rhetoric:D
I'm sorry if we pissed on each others bonfire. The work I do is very serious and it's good for me to be a little silly for a while. so,

See ya

Actually i herd one day the best way to do it is to deside on a partner (rather than one night stands) and then both of you go get tested for aids and hep and stuff. That way you know you are safe (as long as you both are faithfull). You also get the advantages of love rather than lust.

Thats just my opinion though (and i don't really have that much experiance so i don't know how right i am)

Taking into account the "Window period" which is how long it takes for things like HIV and Syphilis to show in the body, you'd need to be tested twice at three monthly intervals and not have unprotected sex with anyone to be sure. No mean feat in itself for many!

Thing is that would be the ideal in the beginning of most relationships. But in a lot the magic tends to wain and then one day something's offered on a plate with no obvious strings attached. A twist in the lid of the can of worms I see

Most people fully intend to be faithful, but most people lie to themselves all the time. In my work I see it everyday. But then we are the british and have major problems with things like sex as a nation. Basically you can touch what you like a long as you can't pronounce it and the lights are off:rolleyes:

Then you must have a real problem with trust
If you can't be faithful then you might as well not go into the relationship in the first place.
Cheating is ALWAYS wrong (and yes im being all ethical but this forum IS ethics)

Yes i did know that it was 3 months for aids because someone i know had to be tested after a neddle stick injury

Tyler:
You do what you want. Otherwise life isn't worth living.

Amen.

Asguard:
Then don't sleep around. That way you can't get STD's.

Oh yes you can, if your partner is or becomes infected. The only way to be 100% sure is to be 100% celibate.

BLECK!

Out of the question, obviously. One simply reduces the chances of infection.

If you can't be faithful then you might as well not go into the relationship in the first place.

That's a bit simplistic. Shit happens. Even the best of people have screwed around.

Cheating is ALWAYS wrong (and yes im being all ethical but this forum IS ethics)

Why? What is so horrible about cheating?

Why? What is so horrible about cheating?

Sorry Xev, the wedding is off. :p

Wedding? What of November?

Are you a Mormon or somthing? :bugeye:

Note the title thingy near my picture. That's what of November.

Awww.

*Hugs Adam*

I'm sorry.

Posted by Asguard
Then you must have a real problem with trust
If you can't be faithful then you might as well not go into the relationship in the first place.

I may not have been clear.
I work in sexual health and so that's why I see it every day. I have absolutely no problem with trusting my partner or myself. We just recognise the fact that temptation is alive and well and living in a street near you.

While this is the case we reduce the fear of infidelity, and have the agreement that if it's so tempting we bring the person home and make a party of it. May not work for all and so far it's not been necessary. It does help tho'

We are very faithful people surrounded by temptation and it's ok

That is sad, Adam. I know the feeling. You have my heart felt empathy...

The problem doesn't lie in the fact that you are British. Afterall, British IS Best :)

The problem lies in the fact that you're a scouser ;) *grinz*
And if you SUPPORT Liverpool, then you are also extremely evil..

FOOTBALL??!!


BAH AND HUMBUG MADAM.

22 men kicking a piece of cow thru three bits of wood, in a field, in winter, IN SHORTS?

Give me swimming or athletics where you can see the action, if you know what I mean:D

Shut up about football. We have to get Adam drunk and tell him how wonderfull he is.

Doesn't change the fact that your a scouser :P

*Struts around in her mackem badge proudly*

If I got Adam drunk he'd be telling me how wonderful I am:D

Temp:
I don't know what a 'mackem' badge is but if that's all you're wearing you'll probly catch a chill:D

I don't know what a 'mackem' badge is but if that's all you're wearing you'll probly catch a chill

...at that rate even her goose bumps will have goose bumps...

Sorry to hear about that adam

Xev:
Cheating IS wrong. When you enter a relationship you agree to be faithfull, if you can't abide that you are:
a)selfish b) weak and\or c)not actually in love

Honey:
You got it all wrong. AUSSI rules is the only TRUE football
Go bombers

Everyone else:
STOP THINKING ABOUT MY GIRLFRIEND NAKED:D

Asguard: Yeah, I see your point. I really don't know much about this.

STOP THINKING ABOUT MY GIRLFRIEND NAKED

I'm not! bbcboy and wet1 are!

Can they think of her in a - right, sorry. :D

Now we have to say nice things about Adam:

Adam is nice. He has the right balance of skepticism and openmindedness.

Actually Asguard,

I wasn't really thinking of your girlfriend naked so much as I was thinking you can get cold that way. Hence the comment. What would I think? I can't say I know her so anything in that line would be meaningless. No insult was intended by the comment though I can see it could be taken that way.

Don't worrie I was joking:D

Im not that thin skined

I forgot to put a :D beside it so you would know to take it that way. Will corect now

Yes my thread was a bit derotory even though I was more refering to the intellegence of the posters than YOU. Yes i like THIS board. I like the thought put into the responces. I did have a problem with some of the posts in the religious forum because i like being able to learn about other peoples religious views and its hard with all the insulting. I have a simalar problem with YOUR board and i haven't been back in a while BECAUSE i don't like that. The way you lock a thread when you don't like the coments in it is strange. If you read some of the longer threads you will see that most of them tend to change topics a few times. There really is nothing wrong with saying how much i love my GF and that post was aimed at you and the other two who come HERE to because you knew what i was talking about. All i seem to be able to find on your site was abuse for people i don't like that. So i posted a thread that said i DIDN'T like your board and how much i DID like this one. I appoligise

Is STILL think you are insensitive by what you have writen on THIS thread but that is MY opinion

Do you not even read the names of the people you are posting to?

TI is my GF and the girl whose cousin YOU refered to as an aceptable sacrifice to YOUR way of life

You still haven't said why you wouldn't want to live in Australia

As you said the laws are already there. Its just how they are admisted. It was a policy change (especially where you are talking about schools or work place). There are inernational laws about racisim and descrimantion basied on religion, Fedral laws about sex descrimanation and descrimation basied on age. State laws about assult, and battery. It was how they were being applied that was the problem.

Have you ever wondered why the youth suicide rate is so high. I can tell you it has NOTHING to do with corparal punishment being illegle or how little our youth care about other people. It has to do with stress and where dose that stress come from?

Even our Army's elite force, the SAS, has been called down for this. The whole army was stode down for half a day last year so they could all watch an adress by Peter Cosgrove about bulling in the millatary. If its unaceptable in the Milatry why the hell is it aceptable in every day life, or worse schools.

It MUST stop and it WILL stop. That is the message from both sides of politics and for once i agree.

BTW: Spelling is a HUGE problem for me. If YOU can't get over the fact that i can't spell then fine, i will live but it makes you a shallow person.

Originally posted by Xev
Adam is nice.

I hate you. I hate everyone. People suck. I think I'm gonna start a nuclear war and wipe all you weasels from the face of the Earth. :)


He has the right balance of skepticism...

I do? Cool! (Instant believer.)


... and openmindedness.

You're so full of crap. Everyone is. It's all friggin lies, and if you can't see that you're a bloody crackpot. The book I base my life on says otherwise, and if you can't see that you have serious psychological problems.


PS: I'm in the mood to disagree with everyone about everything today. :p

Originally posted by bbcboy
If I got Adam drunk he'd be telling me how wonderful I am

No. When I get drunk, I tend to sit in a corner laughing. That's about it.

I don't mind if you laugh when you say it....
Just say it :(

I believe Asguard is thinking of 3RAR, the Third Royal Australian Regiment, a commando regiment. The newspapers and tabloid TV shows got hold of a story about "hazing" in the ranks, and barracks justice and such. They turned it into a sensationlistic news event, made a big deal about it, and in response to bollocks public opinion (I say "bollocks public opinion" because for the most part the public simply has no idea about military matters) and resultant pressure from vote-chasing politicians, the army made a big deal about it and put on a show of trying to stamp out such behaviour.

I thought it was the SAS but you could be right adam.

Dr Evyl: at what point dose it become wrong?

I can show you the figures that show youth suicide is skyrocketing out of control if you want (or if you are interested you could just look at the thread i posted them yourself, they are in is suicide a civilised act)

So it dosn't matter how many people die?

I believe Asguard is thinking of 3RAR, the Third Royal Australian Regiment, a commando regiment. The newspapers and tabloid TV shows got hold of a story about "hazing" in the ranks, and barracks justice and such.

I will not believe that the commanders of such units are not aware of what is going on. Any commander worth his salt knows what his troops are doing. If he is not worth his salt then that is a sure ticket to not surviving the next contact with the enemy. Knowing what they are doing and acknowledging it are two different things though. This isolation factor between the troops and the commander allow the commander to say things like "I didn't know they were doing that".

They turned it into a sensationlistic news event, made a big deal about it, and in response to bollocks public opinion (I say "bollocks public opinion" because for the most part the public simply has no idea about military matters) and resultant pressure from vote-chasing politicians, the army made a big deal about it and put on a show of trying to stamp out such behaviour.

As usual, when the s**t hits the fan, heads duck and those not able to duck roll. The military brass can not afford to look bad in front of the politic body from where they get their "monies" and directions. The military could care less about what Joe Blow Public thinks of them unless it suits their purpose. What the political body at large thinks is something else. The behavour will resurface again at a later time, when the winds blow another direction.