Violence Leaves Young Iraqis Doubting Clerics (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/world/middleeast/04youth.html?ex=1362286800&en=523434a5b76a8835&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

In two months of interviews with 40 young people in five Iraqi cities, a pattern of disenchantment emerged, in which young Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives.

“I hate Islam and all the clerics because they limit our freedom every day and their instruction became heavy over us,” said Sara, a high school student in Basra. “Most of the girls in my high school hate that Islamic people control the authority because they don’t deserve to be rulers.”

Atheer, a 19-year-old from a poor, heavily Shiite neighborhood in southern Baghdad, said: “The religion men are liars. Young people don’t believe them. Guys my age are not interested in religion anymore.”


“In the beginning, they gave their eyes and minds to the clerics; they trusted them,” said Abu Mahmoud, a moderate Sunni cleric in Baghdad, who now works deprogramming religious extremists in American detention. “It’s painful to admit, but it’s changed. People have lost too much. They say to the clerics and the parties: You cost us this.”

“When they behead someone, they say ‘Allahu akbar,’ they read Koranic verse,” said a moderate Shiite sheik from Baghdad, using the phrase for “God is great.”

“The young people, they think that is Islam,” he said. “So Islam is a failure, not only in the students’ minds, but also in the community.”

A professor at Baghdad University’s School of Law, who identified herself only as Bushra, said of her students: “They have changed their views about religion. They started to hate religious men. They make jokes about them because they feel disgusted by them.”


Interesting article,
Michael

IRAQ: 'Not Our Country To Return To' (http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41430)

"I shall never return to Iraq until the last American soldier and Iranian mullah leaves," Alwan says. "It is their country now, not ours. The only thing that might take me back is when I decide to fight for Iraq's real liberty."


Religion and occupation - two sides of the same blade,

Michael

(PS you can quote me on that - just be sure to cite me :)

Thank God, it's a miracle!

I have a friend who was raised Muslim and another raised as a Sikh. Both nice fellows and both as much an atheist as I am. BUT...there's no way they would act as anything other than devout believers in their community. They are under a lot of social pressure, and in the case of the Muslim, it could be violence against him or his family if he hinted a a crack in the faith.

Muslims can't just snub their nose at their faith as easily as I, raised a Christian, can call the whole Jesus mythology a bunch of perverted baloney and no more than nonsense gobbled up by the feeble minded.

I have a friend who was raised Muslim and another raised as a Sikh. Both nice fellows and both as much an atheist as I am. BUT...there's no way they would act as anything other than devout believers in their community. They are under a lot of social pressure, and in the case of the Muslim, it could be violence against him or his family if he hinted a a crack in the faith.You know oreodont - I was told something VERY similar. When I posted it here the response I got was it must be an "imaginary" friend :bugeye:

It seems the plan of the "liberators" is working. Demonizing Islam and alienating people from their religion is the biggest step to completely unhindered control of the Iraqi population. The brotherhood of faith brought them to their greatest hights, yet now the misrepresentation of their religion has divided them into different ideological factions and ethnic groups. The people interviewed, although inaccurate in their assertions, are certainly not to blame. They're leading lives which seemingly have no direction or purpose, and can only judge based on what they see. The truth of the matter is that their religion, when untarnished, is the shackles to their strength. Supporting fanatical religious fundamentalists is a sneaky trick deployed by the West to estrange the Iraqis from one another. This is nearly identical to Hamas' creation.

Violence Leaves Young Iraqis Doubting Clerics (http://www.sciforums.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=22)






Interesting article,
Michael

I love it when people think.

It seems the plan of the "liberators" is working. Demonizing Islam and alienating people from their religion is the biggest step to completely unhindered control of the Iraqi population. The brotherhood of faith brought them to their greatest hights, yet now the misrepresentation of their religion has divided them into different ideological factions and ethnic groups. The people interviewed, although inaccurate in their assertions, are certainly not to blame. They're leading lives which seemingly have no direction or purpose, and can only judge based on what they see. The truth of the matter is that their religion, when untarnished, is the shackles to their strength. Supporting fanatical religious fundamentalists is a sneaky trick deployed by the West to estrange the Iraqis from one another. This is nearly identical to Hamas' creation.Kadark, you're trying to tell me that these are all "new" clerics that somehow suddenly cropped out of the ground - planted by the USA? Hardly. Come on, the USA is certainly not that competent. If it were our economy wouldn't be sinking into the tube along with Iraq. These clerics have been there for decades at least.

Everyone said fear of Saddam was the only thing that held the place together, Saddam was removed and instantly boom people went ape shit. THAT'S the fault of the USA? Maybe it's the fault of military planners from not PREVENTING Iraqis from going Ape shit but that's a whole hell of a lot different than saying they caused them to go ape shit.

Come on, put some responsibility on the shoulders of the people that live there.

Certainly you agree that the USA is NOT at all responsible for the menial old Shiia/Sunni divide in the ME? I am sure we agree on that one.

Also, wasn't Iraq in the war with Iran? Is that also the fault of the USA?

Isn't there a bunch of Kurds with a 100+ year grievance living there? Also the fault of the USA?

Ever see the way Pakistani people are treated by Arabs living in the UAE? Is that also the "Wests" fault?

Please,
Michael

I told you about the SBS special I watched (around 2005). These fat Iraqis tribal "leaders" all sitting around a nice carpet on pillows stuffing in the food and saying it's up to the Americans to pay for and build the nation?!?! Man that one still gets me. Not only are WE supposed to pay for it but we're also supposed to do the god damn work too?!? What kind of arse hole way of thinking is that?

See, that's the type of attitude that I think pervades many parts of the ME and hence things stay the same because no one wants to do anything and wants someone else to do it for them. It's a big problem. Look at UAE - entire thing being built be imported labor from India and Pakistan.

Michael,

I suggest you do a little research before postulating as to what did and did not happen, concerning Iraq's current environment and the events leading to it. All of the fundamentalist, extremist, militant, rigidly-Islamic individuals and clerics of the Iraqi society are being funded and supported by the U.S. military. This is a crystal clear fact. The purpose of this is to incite hatred amongst different Islamic denominations, and to defer the Iraqis from a national identity to that of a religious one. The U.S. knows that the only chance the Iraqis have of successfully removing their stationed soldiers is to unite under a banner with a common purpose. Instead, we've witnessed the focus shift from American presence to different factions and ethnic groups within the country. In a nutshell, supporting these rabid clerics helps turn the Iraqis against one another, and against their religion, which this thread in particular is about. The leaders who endorse a common cause amongst all Iraqis (regardless of faith) are being shunned and undermined, and made an unsupported minority. As long as extremists are encouraged by their leaders to advertise their view of the right system and the right religion, the Iraqis as a whole will never be on the same page. As a result, the occupation will last as long as the occupiers desire.

Can I blame the U.S. for Saddam and significant portions of the Iran-Iraq war? You bet. How do you think Saddam even got into power in the first place, Michael? Abdul Qasim, Iraq's prime minister at the time, was on the CIA's secretive "shitlist" for his communist sympathies/support. Saddam became well-acquainted with various American officials through different embassies (mainly in Egypt), which resulted in a CIA-coup of Qasim's government during 1963, establishing in its place soon-to-be Saddam's Ba'athist party. As you can see, the last fifty years (at least) of Iraq's history can be blamed almost entirely on the U.S. As for the Iraq-Iran war, I have lots to say on that topic as well, although I don't want to get into that (I suggest a PM if you're really curious and would like a lesson in history).

Oh, and by the way, nobody invited the U.S. to liberate Iraq. You're acting as if we asked for your services, and showed dissatisfaction in the results. You are free to witness these events through tunnel-vision, and to ignore the history which made things the way they are today. If you're talking about why Iraqis today are losing their faith, it's because they're falling victim to the cleverly orchestrated U.S. tactic. Demonize their religion, alienate Iraqis from one another, and divide the inhabitants through difference of religion and ethnicity. Supporting the fundamentalists not only helps the U.S. from avoiding a confrontation with an Iraqi national unity, but it also helps people like you show sympathy for the American endeavour worldwide. Sorry, but I'm not taking the bait.

All of the fundamentalist, extremist, militant, rigidly-Islamic individuals and clerics of the Iraqi society are being funded and supported by the U.S. military. This is a crystal clear fact. Do you have any sort of evince to prove this point?

In a nutshell, supporting these rabid clerics helps turn the Iraqis against one another, and against their religion, which this thread in particular is about. Lets take Muqtada al-Sadr. His father was a religious cleric before him. He’s a screw-bag who armed Shiia militia and sent them on killing sprees against the Sunni.

Who in return killed Shiia.

Did the USA orchestrate this? How?

That doesn’t even mention any of the people hoping to join up with Al Qaeda & Co. in Iraq.

Instead, we've witnessed the focus shift from American presence to different factions and ethnic groups within the country. In a nutshell, supporting these rabid clerics helps turn the Iraqis against one another, and against their religion, which this thread in particular is about. This is my point, those ethnic divides where there well before Saddam even. Kurds, Shia, Sunni, Christians, Jews, Arabs, Persians, Turks, etc…

I maintain that it was the removal of Saddam that let loose the millennial old divides. And, for the most part the religious people really supported it. So I think. The Shia demonize the Sunni the Sunni Demonize the Shia. And these nutters from KSA joining Al Qaeda hoping fro martyrdom and killing people by blowing themselves up or cutting the heads off people well yelling God is Great – come on, the USA can’t organize that. It comes form centuries of hostility.

In a nut shell, with the TV and internet people are thinking, wait a minute this is all bull shit. Or so it seems to me.

As a result, the occupation will last as long as the occupiers desire. Maybe with Obama not so long – I hope.

Can I blame the U.S. for Saddam and significant portions of the Iran-Iraq war? You bet. How do you think Saddam even got into power in the first place, Michael? I agree that the USA had a role to play BUT lets not make the USA out to be God or something. The country is not omnipotent. Anyway, all countries leaders have played games to suite their best interest from day dot. The USA is not special nor an exception.

. Saddam became well-acquainted with various American officials through different embassies (mainly in Egypt), which resulted in a CIA-coup of Qasim's government during 1963, establishing in its place soon-to-be Saddam's Ba'athist party. As you can see, the last fifty years (at least) of Iraq's history can be blamed almost entirely on the U.S. As for the Iraq-Iran war, I have lots to say on that topic as well, although I don't want to get into that (I suggest a PM if you're really curious and would like a lesson in history). I agree the USA had a hand in it, but to put every little blame on the USA like they were some sort of God – please. All powerful nations are meddling in one anthers affairs.

Oh, and by the way, nobody invited the U.S. to liberate Iraq. You're acting as if we asked for your services, and showed dissatisfaction in the results. OK, I see your point. But that’s too bad because the USA isn’t going to be their mom and wipe their nose. I never supported the war and I want us to leave now. A responsible Iraqi would think about working hard to make their country better not blaming the USA and saying we should do it or it doesn’t get done – that’s silly. So what – I guess it doesn’t get done. That’ll show them Americans – we’ll just live here in filth UNTIL they do something about it.

If you're talking about why Iraqis today are losing their faith, it's because they're falling victim to the cleverly orchestrated U.S. tactic. This I don’t agree with.

I think Saddam held that place together by fear. When he was gone that country began to disintegrate. Hell, the Kurds don’t even want to be a part of Iraq. Religious violence started because in the past it was Sunni ruling Shia and now it is Shia ruling Sunni. Add to the mix Al Qaeda and this is the end result.

I don’t think the USA is trying to get Iraqis to lose their faith. The USA really doesn’t care – so long as they get the oil. Iraqis are losing their faith as a consequence of the religious violence.

I know a lot of people who questioned their "religion" after 9/11 and have actually gained from it.

Hopefully, these Iraqis will do the same. I know it helped me a lot, to get beyond the "Islam" propagated by the west.

Michael,

I truly wish I had the patience and time to thoroughly discredit all of your erroneous claims, but history between us dictates that no amount of information will affect you. To sum up your argument, you're basically saying that there were large ethnic and religious divides (denominationally speaking) prior to Saddam. I cannot begin to tell you how incorrect this is. In case you have forgotten, everybody was functioning perfectly fine in that region until a few Europeans decided to draw a imaginary lines on a map allotting land to various peoples, with no regard or consideration to the inhabitants' history, ethnicity, religion, or connection to the land. The U.S. played a monumental role in assuring that Saddam's Ba'athist party proclaimed power, using a CIA coup to overthrow their existent government. You argue that the U.S. is not the only nation at fault. While there is an iota of truth to that, I cannot see how it is relevant to today, considering no other nation comes nearly close to matching the U.S.'s role and manipulation in that particular oil-rich region (both past and present).

Oh, and you say this: "I don’t think the USA is trying to get Iraqis to lose their faith. The USA really doesn’t care – so long as they get the oil." Well, of course they don't truly care what the religion is of the people they're stealing from - however, it does make the process a lot easier for America's oilmen when the Iraqis are fighting each other, rather than the Americans. Does it make sense to you that the invaded Iraqis would fight each other naturally, rather than fighting the occupiers? It's simply the age-old method of divide and conquer. Have people question their own religion, question the religion of others, fund both sides unconditionally, and see the idiots destroy each other. I mean, the nation of Iraq (as we call it today) never had this kind of a hostile inner-conflict. When Iraq was a part of the Ottoman Empire, how many Sunni-Shi'ite riots and massacres were there? When were the Kurds sworn enemies to the other ethnicities? It was never a problem. Funding and magnifying the power of a few insane clerics is enough to turn the attention and blame from the U.S. to the conquered Iraqis themselves.

I know a lot of people who questioned their "religion" after 9/11 and have actually gained from it.

Hopefully, these Iraqis will do the same. I know it helped me a lot, to get beyond the "Islam" propagated by the west.

Did you, in any significant way, change your interpretation or viewpoint on Islam, post-911?

Did you, in any significant way, change your interpretation or viewpoint on Islam, post-911?

Lets just say that prior to that, I had not been religious or very interested in what was happening in other Muslim countries or societies. :)

Lets just say that prior to that, I had not been religious or very interested in what was happening in other Muslim countries or societies. :)

Cool. I'd say the Iraq war did to me what 9/11 did to you.

Cool. I'd say the Iraq war did to me what 9/11 did to you.

Yeah, thats what I meant. Mullahs are incidental to Islam and the sooner Muslims realise that the better.:)

These fat Iraqis tribal "leaders" all sitting around a nice carpet on pillows stuffing in the food and saying it's up to the Americans to pay for and build the nation?!?! Man that one still gets me. Not only are WE supposed to pay for it but we're also supposed to do the god damn work too?!? What kind of arse hole way of thinking is that?

You broke it, its yours. :D

Lets just say that prior to that, I had not been religious or very interested in what was happening in other Muslim countries or societies. :)

Yes it's strange how terrorists seem so good at recruiting people to their religion.

Yes it's strange how terrorists seem so good at recruiting people to their religion.

Yeah, I hear you don't even need a draft to bomb people for no reason. :bugeye:

Yeah, I hear you don't even need a draft to bomb people for no reason. :bugeye:

Well SAM, you know what? I hate the foreign policy of the USA too but that doesn't get me to drop to my knees and pray to the east.

Well SAM, you know what? I hate the foreign policy of the USA too but that doesn't get me to drop to my knees and pray to the east.

Nope, you're too busy enjoying a society based on colonialism and "free trade" practices. :roflmao:

Yeah, thats what I meant. Mullahs are incidental to Islam and the sooner Muslims realise that the better.

Do you think the idea of "Mullahs" should be eradicated altogether, or that they shouldn't wield so much power? Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a man well-educated on Islam teaching what he knows to others. Perhaps you had a different approach?

Do you think the idea of "Mullahs" should be eradicated altogether, or that they shouldn't wield so much power? Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a man well-educated on Islam teaching what he knows to others. Perhaps you had a different approach?

I prefer the original system of philosophers and jurists.

Let the spiritual and material stuff be dealt with on different levels. Most mullahs and qadis today are politicians not alims and manipulate the political system for power. More a western system than an eastern one.

I did meet some very nice qadis in Saudi Arabia but they are crushed under the political power exerted by the committee on vice (ie the muttawa'in)

Nope, you're too busy enjoying a society based on colonialism and "free trade" practices. :roflmao:

How hypocritical is that I wonder? On a scale of 1 to 10?

How hypocritical is that I wonder? On a scale of 1 to 10?

You mean the liberation of countries previously colonised and destabilised for profit? Then artifically divided to maintain the conflict?

On a scale on 1-10 I'd say a 1000. Carving up people and serving them for supper is not unusual for the Brits, though, so I doubt they even blink now.:)

I prefer the original system of philosophers and jurists.

Let the spiritual and material stuff be dealt with on different levels. Most mullahs and qadis today are politicians not alims and manipulate the political system for power. More a western system than an eastern one.

I did meet some very nice qadis in Saudi Arabia but they are crushed under the political power exerted by the committee on vice (ie the muttawa'in)

It's nice to be on the same page for once!

I agree, people who commit themselves to religious and spiritual matters should not busy themselves with political rubbish. It is far too easy to abuse and seize advantage of religion, when all the "religious" men have the power.

Although, this doesn't mean I espouse secularism. Simply, it means I don't want the guy teaching me about my religion running my country.

It's nice to be on the same page for once!

I agree, people who commit themselves to religious and spiritual matters should not busy themselves with political rubbish. It is far too easy to abuse and seize advantage of religion, when all the "religious" men have the power.

Although, this doesn't mean I espouse secularism. Simply, it means I don't want the guy teaching me about my religion running my country.

Yup, but then you have idiots crooning for the "Muslim scholars" to "speak out" against terrorism. While screeching that religion should not be mixed with politics. Duh!:D

Yup, but then you have idiots crooning for the "Muslim scholars" to "speak out" against terrorism. While screeching that religion should not be mixed with politics. Duh!:D

I agree. Much better to tell them to tell the kids to go do something more useful with their time.

I agree. Much better to tell them to tell the kids to go do something more useful with their time.

Thats not their job either. Kids are not answerable to philosophers.

To sum up your argument, you're basically saying that there were large ethnic and religious divides (denominationally speaking) prior to Saddam. I cannot begin to tell you how incorrect this is. So what are you saying here Kadark? That the people living in the area that is now Iraq, when ruled under the Ottoman Monarchy were happy to live under Ottoman rule? Is that you position? If so – then why on Goddesses Earth did they choose to side with the British and fight the Ottomans?

Why?

In case you have forgotten, everybody was functioning perfectly fine in that region until a few Europeans decided to draw a imaginary lines on a map allotting land to various peoples, with no regard or consideration to the inhabitants' history, ethnicity, religion, or connection to the land. Again, why did the people living there choose to align with the British and fight against the Ottomans?

Why?


The U.S. played a monumental role in assuring that Saddam's Ba'athist party proclaimed power, using a CIA coup to overthrow their existent government. Yes I agree. But, so what Kadark? Every single nation on this planet meddles with everyone else. That’s a simple fact of life. You think the USA meddled with Iraq – TRY BEING RUSSIAN! The USA was constantly meddling with Russia, WAY more than Iraq.

And guess what – Saddam was also supported by Russia. Oh, and France gave Saddam fighter planes. And China signed oil and gas deals with Saddam. Etc..

And if we really really want to go back into History and talk about “The Great Game” it’s plainly obvious that every nation was manipulating every other nation.

Jesus, just look at Korea.

Has the USA meddeled in Iraqi affairs – YES.
Does this mean Iraq would be anything other than a mess now if they hadn’t – NO.
Was the USA alone? No.

Well, of course they don't truly care what the religion is of the people they're stealing from - however, it does make the process a lot easier for America's oilmen when the Iraqis are fighting each other, rather than the Americans. Does it make sense to you that the invaded Iraqis would fight each other naturally, rather than fighting the occupiers? It's simply the age-old method of divide and conquer. Have people question their own religion, question the religion of others, fund both sides unconditionally, and see the idiots destroy each other. I mean, the nation of Iraq (as we call it today) never had this kind of a hostile inner-conflict. No here you are wrong. The USA planned to invade Iraq, topple Saddam, install another puppet government that had a New nicer USA-friendly Saddam running the show who would then pump all the oil to the USA. I am 100% sure that the idiots who run the USA had no clue as to the Sunni and Shiia and chaos that would ensure.

To suggest ANYTHING else is not only pure speculation, it doesn’t fit the USA’s modus operendi and boarders on flunky CT.

When Iraq was a part of the Ottoman Empire, how many Sunni-Shi'ite riots and massacres were there? When were the Kurds sworn enemies to the other ethnicities? It was never a problem. Funding and magnifying the power of a few insane clerics is enough to turn the attention and blame from the U.S. to the conquered Iraqis themselves. Why did the people living in that area CHOOSE to side with the British against the Ottomans?

Why?


Sorry Kadark but history shows that the people living there wanted out from under Ottoman rule.


Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a man well-educated on Islam teaching what he knows to others. Perhaps you had a different approach?Out of curiosity, do you see anything wrong with a well-educated woman teaching others (including men?).

Nope, you're too busy enjoying a society based on colonialism and "free trade" practices. :roflmao:Yeah, SAM, that’s what I’m doing. I have my Indian maid servants right here next to me : sponge bathing me.
Please.
Free Trade is just trade without tariffs. You live in a Democracy – if you don’t like it, simply put up tariffs on American imports. Done.

If I remember correctly your Utopian Indian province where supposedly everyone was living wonderfully made much better gains as they opened up to free trade. The simple fact is there are lazy people who wrought the system – everywhere on the earth. Even in industrial Japan I see people who simply want to put their feet up and let the other people do the hard work.

America’s biggest gains were made in America because of America’s natural resources. Not because of India or China. America became rich trading with Europeans and New York became the richest city in the world over a hundred years ago.

If you want to think America suddenly became rich because of it’s exploitation of India? Please. India and the USA only recently started have major effects toward one another's economy. What about KSA – yeah, they’re obviously getting ripped off by the USA as we pay through the arse for oil. I suppose it was the USA that made China poor too oh and Russia oh and Thailand and Indonesia we tried to make Singapore and Korea and Japan and Taiwan and Hong Kong poor with our "free trade" policy but guess what - they somehow got rich.??

WEIRD HUH?

Please.


RE: Iraqis losing their faith.

Kadark, IF the two bombs that were used in suicide bombings that happened TODAY are found to have been made with the assistance of Iran what then Kadark? Is it some new conspiracy where the CIA secretly also controls the Iranians Mullahs and they use them without their knowledge to brainwash people from KSA to carry out attacks on USA solders in Iraq so that America, who is paying >$100/barrel will get cheap oil like maybe $99/barrel… ohhh wait, that’s all part of the plan. See the USA will tank it’s economy too - all to throw people off the track , you know, by paying >$100/barrel … that’ll trick em!


OR could it be that some idiot boys where taught some romantic bullshit about this fictional Arab past and "Islamic" Golden Age and think that Martyrdom will not only make them glorious but also get them a free ticket to this wonderful heaven they were also erroneously taught exists.

Michael


Does the USA meddle in Iraq - YES.
Is the USA trying to divide Shiia and Sunni - maybe.
Do many Shiia hate Sunni for a past that has absolutely nothing to do with the USA - YES. (hell even in Pakistan BEFORE 9/11 Sunni were killing Shia).

Are Iraqi's losing faith because of all the romantic bullshit they were taught - YUP. Probably not too many Iraqi kids are going to romanticize about this wondrous time when Persians rolled over for the former clients the Arabs and became good little subjects. They know all too well what people can do in the name of God.

What is the US destroyer doing off Lebanon? The US troops in Iraq? In Afghanistan?

The 1000 military bases all over the world?

The US centric WB/IMF/G8 "free trade" practices?

Easy to say just put tariffs when the dictators are in the US pocket, buying US arms with US "aid" money.

Working hard at destroying the world indeed.

And why do you think Indians fought on the side of the British during WWII?

The U.S is trying to help people get along.

The U.S is trying to help people get along.

Shouldn't you be in Iraq, aiding in this charitable enterprise?

I try and help people wherever i can.

What is the US destroyer doing off Lebanon? The US troops in Iraq? In Afghanistan?

The 1000 military bases all over the world?

The US centric WB/IMF/G8 "free trade" practices?

Easy to say just put tariffs when the dictators are in the US pocket, buying US arms with US "aid" money.

Working hard at destroying the world indeed.

And why do you think Indians fought on the side of the British during WWII?Is the USA responsible for India being so poor? No. IS the USA responsible for China being so poor? No. Is the USA responsible for Japan being so rich? No. Is the USA responsible for Germany being so rich? No. Each nation is as it is due to the efforts and management of it's people. India is poor because of Indians SAM. China is poor because of Chinese, SAM.

Ohhh hooo but ask Indian's and it's the British fault. Ask Chinese and it's the Japanese fault. According to Chinese japan is rich only because they exploited the Chinese! Everyone likes to blame someone and no one likes to take responsibility for their own actions.

The USA has military bases to protect it's investments and maintain the order of things. Yes that is true. But, as you well know, the Phillipeans simply told the USA get the f8ck out - and guess what, the USA left.

It's funny, I hear German's bitch about US military bases but then when we close them down and that city collapses - oh, that's also our fault. :bugeye:

Like I said, everyone wants someone to blame their problems on.


As for Afghanistan and Iraq. As I said, the USA used 9/11 as a means to invade and steal their oil. Hopefully, now, after Americans have stopped romanticizing war and pulled their heads out of their collective arses they'll elect someone who will then remove all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Tomorrow could not be soon enough if you asked me.

RE: G8
Yeah, they set policies for themselves. Big surprise there. Japan looks after Japan as much as France looks after France. If you think Russia somehow is looking after the USA - please SAM. CT anyone?

Michael

Yeah its all the people's fault.

Like being forced (by "free trade" practices) to sell coffee for 23 cents a pound when their "benefactors" sell it for what? 22 dollars a pound?

Yup, its all those idiots lazing around when they should be working.

In two months of interviews with 40 young people in five Iraqi cities, a pattern of disenchantment emerged, in which young Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives.

“I hate Islam and all the clerics because they limit our freedom every day and their instruction became heavy over us,” said Sara, a high school student in Basra. “Most of the girls in my high school hate that Islamic people control the authority because they don’t deserve to be rulers.”

Atheer, a 19-year-old from a poor, heavily Shiite neighborhood in southern Baghdad, said: “The religion men are liars. Young people don’t believe them. Guys my age are not interested in religion anymore.”

“When they behead someone, they say ‘Allahu akbar,’ they read Koranic verse,” said a moderate Shiite sheik from Baghdad, using the phrase for “God is great.”

A professor at Baghdad University’s School of Law, who identified herself only as Bushra, said of her students: “They have changed their views about religion. They started to hate religious men. They make jokes about them because they feel disgusted by them.”

Good news. It often takes an environment where islam can show it's true face before people can see just how evil it is. In Iraq the true muslims have been allowed to give their religion it's truest bloody form in violence and terror.

There is now hope for these young people who probably once believed the propaganda that islam was a religion of peace. Now they see islam for what it truly is, savage barbaric and evil.

Just been listening to the news about the latest bombing in Bagdad carried out by devout islamic jihadists, they will never stop until they themselves are destroyed by the sword. In violence it was born and it violence it expanded and lived and in violence it shall be destroyed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

As to the thread topic: Dozens killed in Baghdad attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7282145.stm)

At least 54 people have been killed by two bomb attacks in the Karada shopping area in the centre of the Iraqi capital Baghdad

Shiia's was apparently the target.


Now, to me, this is clearly a fault in religion. As I said in the past, many time, give people an inch of rope and they'll take a mile. Wage war in the name of God and 1500 years later people will think it's OK to wage war in the name of God.

Did Abraham wage war in God's name?
Did Mosses wage war in Gods name?
Did Jesus wage war in Gods name?
Did Buddha wage war in Gods name?
Did Zoroaster wage war in Gods name?
Did Bahá'u'lláh wage war in Gods name?


The people who invented those religions actually did it as a religious thing.

Now lets look at some other societies and how they expanded:
Did Alexander of Macedonia wage war as a God?
Did Julius Caesar wage war as a decedent of a God?
Did Mohammad wage war as a Prophet of a God?


Base your philosophy on the stipulation that War is a natural part of human life and expect people to wage war. Teach people that War is a sin and you'll still have war, but not in the name of God or religion.

So to the Question: Why are Iraqis losing faith? The answer is because people are killing one another in the name of God.

Maybe they would still be killing one another, but if it were over ethnicity of culture then they wouldn't be losing their faith in God - just in humanity.

Michael

Yeah its all the people's fault.

Like being forced (by "free trade" practices) to sell coffee for 23 cents a pound when their "benefactors" sell it for what? 22 dollars a pound?

Yup, its all those idiots lazing around when they should be working.It's obvious - don't grow coffee. Obviously the commodity is being made at too high a volume compared with the number of people. If you are a worker, just don't work. It's called a strike and THAT is an issue of minimum wage within YOUR country and has nothing to do at all with the USA.

EX: the USA has free trade with India and Colombia. The India does what? Put a tariff's on it's OWN EXPORT? Or is the USA supposed to put a tariff's on India's coffee? And how exactly does all this result in the little guy make more than $0.23 per lb?

Guess what - Japanese used to work for very little money when the country was dirt poor. Well management and hard hard work turned them into the industrial juggernaut they are today - and has nothing to do with the USA.

Is the USA to blame for China's failed economic policy that resulted in 30 million deaths to starvation? Just curious how far the blame goes?


I often her Malaysians blame Singapore on why Malaysia is poor - the Singaporeans take advantage of the cheap labor in Malaysia. But, if they don't send work to Malaysia - well then it's again blame Singapore.

Always someone to blame, you live in a democracy SAM you can only blame yourselves,
Michael

So what are you saying here Kadark? That the people living in the area that is now Iraq, when ruled under the Ottoman Monarchy were happy to live under Ottoman rule? Is that you position? If so – then why on Goddesses Earth did they choose to side with the British and fight the Ottomans?

To answer your question: yes, the Arabs were very content and satisfied living under a protective Ottoman rule. You ask a valid question, as to why they betrayed the Ottomans in the end. Simple, really: if you're given the choice of living under someone else's Empire (no matter how fairly and competently they run their system) and a homeland for your own independence, chances are you're going to choose the latter. The Arabs knew that the Ottoman Empire was crumbling, and they fought against what remained of it to gain independence - not to free themselves from oppression and despot Sultans. The story of the Arabs siding with the heinous Brits against their Muslim brothers and sisters in Turkey is an event they still pay for today. Look how miserably the Arabs live.

Again, why did the people living there choose to align with the British and fight against the Ottomans?

Why?

Read above. The Arabs attempted to capture advantage of an Empire that was on a rapid decline, and because they were promised the sun and the moon for helping the British. Sharif Husayn, who helped organize many of the rebellions, was a rich and powerful man, thanks to the position the Ottomans put him in. Clearly, it wasn't a lifetime of being oppressed or misrepresented that drove the Arabs to side with the British. It was pure selfishness, with a mixture of deadly pan-Arab mentality.

Yes I agree. But, so what Kadark? Every single nation on this planet meddles with everyone else. That’s a simple fact of life. You think the USA meddled with Iraq – TRY BEING RUSSIAN! The USA was constantly meddling with Russia, WAY more than Iraq.

Every nation may meddle with others to some degree, but no nation comes nearly as close to the realm of the U.S. Sure, Russia may have been meddled with, but they were certainly doing meddling of their own. Besides, they were (and arguable still are) a superpower - they have the means to defend themselves. Iraqis, on the other hand, have no such advantages. They're simply unfortunate enough to be geographically stationed over some of the world's most fruitful oil reserves.

And guess what – Saddam was also supported by Russia. Oh, and France gave Saddam fighter planes. And China signed oil and gas deals with Saddam. Etc..

And guess what? Nobody is praising any of those nations. You know, the U.S. could even be forgiven for their deceitful and disastrous involvements in Iraq's history, if only, well, you know, they weren't currently undergoing an invasion in the country. Sure, many countries used Iran and Iraq to their own economical and political advantages back in the '80s, but look at what country is most active in destabilizing the region today (through war). The argument that other countries have had shady dealings with Iraq in the past simply doesn't have much merit, in the grand scheme of things.

Has the USA meddeled in Iraqi affairs – YES.
Does this mean Iraq would be anything other than a mess now if they hadn’t – NO.
Was the USA alone? No.

I can't believe I'm wasting my precious time on you. Of course Iraq would have been better off right now, because Saddam would have never seen power. Before the U.S. supported him into power, he had been shot and exiled - clearly showing he didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of controlling Iraq. Abdul Qassim was adored by the Iraqis for overthrowing the British-established monarchy. There's no way the civilians would have simply allowed an amateur plan to overthrow their new government to go through. Oh, and the U.S. may not have been alone in supporting sides/sharing information in the Iran-Iraq war, but they were the only nation that legitimized Saddam's party, and sustained his power twenty years prior. The U.S. is the country of all countries that started this ongoing war. So yeah, in many important aspects of Iraq's modern history, the U.S. did act alone in damaging the nation for its own profitable means.

No here you are wrong. The USA planned to invade Iraq, topple Saddam, install another puppet government that had a New nicer USA-friendly Saddam running the show who would then pump all the oil to the USA. I am 100% sure that the idiots who run the USA had no clue as to the Sunni and Shiia and chaos that would ensure.

Do you really think, Michael, that the U.S. could control Iraq, if the population were united under a common cause? Hell no! If Iraq's population were truly devoted to the foreign removal mission, they would cast aside all differences to accomplish their goal. They would burn all the oil they had before giving it to the "liberators". The U.S. needed to install some type of distraction, which ended up being the lust for power that the Iraqis were taught to desire. Simply destroy Saddam's government, and fund and fuel all sides against one another, as each attempt to climb to the top of the food chain. There are lots of different groups in Iraq, Michael - trust me. A few target Americans, but many others have been tricked into believing that the true enemies are the Iraqis themselves. Installing a puppet government in Iraq that was U.S.-friendly was the main purpose; however, obtaining that objective needed planning. The main plan was to start a civil war. Mission accomplished.

OR could it be that some idiot boys where taught some romantic bullshit about this fictional Arab past and "Islamic" Golden Age and think that Martyrdom will not only make them glorious but also get a free ticket to this wonderful heaven they were also erroneously taught exists.

How's the tunnel-vision working for you? Seriously, if these half-assed explanations help you sleep at night, then I can't blame you for clinging on to them so desperately. If you think that nineteen Arabs simply decided that they were going to hijack four commercial airplanes simultaneously and control them with pinpoint accuracy simply to enjoy the afterlife of heaven, then you're beyond all hope. A man who has no sense of history is like a man with no eyes or ears.

Does the USA meddle in Iraq - YES.
Is the USA trying to divide Shiia and Sunni - maybe.
Do many Shiia hate Sunni for a past that has absolutely nothing to do with the USA - YES. (hell even in Pakistan BEFORE 9/11 Sunni were killing Shia).

The difference is: pre-CIA-coup Iraqis had different denominations, yet learned to get along, whereas now many of them are ravenous beasts who are trying to kill each other. Sunnis and Shi'ites have always disagreed, and more often than not prefer different systems and societies. However, they were never so opposed to each other that they participated in civil wars and massacres. If you want to believe that this is all simply a wild coincidence, then feel free to do so.

It's obvious - don't grow coffee.

Ah of course! WHAT AN OBVIOUS SOLUTION!

Except of course that "aid" comes attached with conditions of GM crops, food dumping from heavily subsidised farmers in rich countries which makes it impossible to grow the local crops and there are strict conditions of not subsidising farmers in Third World countries. Now the "aid" is determined by the WB/IMF/G8 groups and signed by the pally dictator (or a government with few choices when faced with starving populations) so its not like anyone can say much.:rolleyes:

Do you know how many farmers commit suicide every year due to this "free trade"?

Back to Iraq. How much control do they have over their own resources?

They can't even stop contractors from shooting civilians or stop the US army from building a US base over the city of Babylon, which, considering your love of antiquities should merit some consideration.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4177577.stm

Perhaps there should be a national holiday for U.S in India.

Guys, can we stay on topic here?

That is on topic.

National holidays in India...

...Young Iraqis leaving Islam.

Oooookaaay.

Well it was a response to SAMs GM crops and farmers committing suicide, which i admit hardly makes sense.

Okay back on topic, there are all kinds of people who leave Islam
http://towelian.wordpress.com/manifesto/

Okay back on topic, there are all kinds of people who leave Islam
http://towelian.wordpress.com/manifesto/

http://www.freewebs.com/towelianism/towelie.jpg

Kadark, you really take this pro-Turkish thing seriously. I mean come on. They were living the good life when they were "protected" by us but idiots got greedy, wanted self determination and see what it got them!



Of course Iraq would have been better off right now, because Saddam would have never seen power. Before the U.S. supported him into power, he had been shot and exiled - clearly showing he didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of controlling Iraq. Abdul Qassim was adored by the Iraqis for overthrowing the British-established monarchy. There's no way the civilians would have simply allowed an amateur plan to overthrow their new government to go through. Oh, and the U.S. may not have been alone in supporting sides/sharing information in the Iran-Iraq war, but they were the only nation that legitimized Saddam's party, and sustained his power twenty years prior. The U.S. is the country of all countries that started this ongoing war. So yeah, in many important aspects of Iraq's modern history, the U.S. did act alone in damaging the nation for its own profitable means.This would make sense EXCEPT just before Iraq War I, Iraqis had one of the, if not the, highest standard of living in the ME. They were educated, seemingly secular, and enjoying their natural resources.

Are you going to say it was the USA that forced Iraq into Iran? Please.
Was it the USA that forced Saddam into Kuwait? Please.

Talk about tunnel vision :D

I think you're seeing Iraq through a two meter tube of Turkish nationalism???

Michael

Michael,

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Regardless, I've grown rather tired of this debate, so we'll call it a night, unless you have something interesting you want to discuss.

RE: leaving Islam.

It's common for the first generation to stick to things because, psychologically, they can look back and think, well I had things good - my childhood was good. Etc...

But, when it's all bad from childhood on up, people stop believing and start looking for something else. This could be a ripe time for a new religion in Iraq if it was accompanied with serious good progress.

Michael

Michael,

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Regardless, I've grown rather tired of this debate, so we'll call it a night, unless you have something interesting you want to discuss.
You must agree that Iraq, at one time, under Saddam, enjoyed high level of standard of living. That's a Historical fact.

Agreed?
Michael

Except for the minor detail of 500,000 children who died under sanctions.

Except for the minor detail of 500,000 children who died under sanctions.

I always thought it was much much better before Saddam.

Sanctions: couldn't Iraq get what they needed from other countries closer to them?

Like medical syringes from a neighboring country and also toilet paper, hard to believe that there wasnt a roll of toilet paper in all of Iraq. Also, that number is not realistic to claim it was due to sanctions.

Thank God, it's a miracle!

dont worry, in the end they will stay muslims by force and intimidation. many muslims i talked to tolled me its forbidden to leave islam, punishable by death.

RE: leaving Islam.

It's common for the first generation to stick to things because, psychologically, they can look back and think, well I had things good - my childhood was good. Etc...

But, when it's all bad from childhood on up, people stop believing and start looking for something else. This could be a ripe time for a new religion in Iraq if it was accompanied with serious good progress.

Michael

I dont really understand what you are trying to say. Youve posted a link to how young iraqis are getting tired of the violence and are blaming some of their clerics among others and are losing respect for them. Isnt that normal? People start to hate people who they think keep supporting violence. Its happened with a lot of other leaders. This doesnt mean they are starting to leave Islam in their droves, they are just disenchanted with some of the clerics who tehy used to trust.

I'm talking about before that war.

Anyway, your position is the children's death due to "sanctions"?
Then why is it that when one looks at the Kurdish controlled area, where they also lived under the same sanctions, they greatly prospered?

When money was coming in hand over fist, Saddam shared the loot with the people and in general people did really good. When sanctions came in - he didn't. That's Iraqs fault - not ours.

Is it your position that China MUST trade with Taiwan? They legally can not stop trade? It's somehow their responsibility to maintain trade with Taiwan. The reality is, Americans didn't want to trade with Iraq, just as they don't want to trade with Iran. They have that right. It doesn't mean that the Russian or Indian or Chinese or French or etc... can not, just that we will not.

Why should we HAVE to trade with Iran, while they continue to elect leaders calling for the blood of Americans? That's stupid.

What next SAM, the Iranian Mullahs run out of money, squander their savings and because the USA has decided not to trade with them (aka "sanctions) then it's our fault if they suffer hardships?

Since when was it the USAs job to mandatory for us to trade with nations not friendly with us?

Michael

Uh, you have got to be kidding.

I dont really understand what you are trying to say. Youve posted a link to how young iraqis are getting tired of the violence and are blaming some of their clerics among others and are losing respect for them. Isnt that normal? People start to hate people who they think keep supporting violence. Its happened with a lot of other leaders. This doesnt mean they are starting to leave Islam in their droves, they are just disenchanted with some of the clerics who tehy used to trust.Yes exactly.

It means Iraqis are smartening up.

Michael

Uh, you have got to be kidding.
Is it, yes or no, the choice of the USA to not trade with another country?
It's that simple.

If we choose not to that's called "sanctions". It means, we don't want to do business with you anymore.

Michael

Those guys will probably be killed asap. Can't have thinking people on the SUV fuels. Like Mossadegh, better consigned to dust bins.

what a bunch of traitors

Is it, yes or no, the choice of the USA to not trade with another country?
It's that simple.

If we choose not to that's called "sanctions". It means, we don't want to do business with you anymore.

Michael

Yeah, MUCH better to have malleable dictators who use chemical weapons on their own people. Yup, great argument there.

Is it, yes or no, the choice of the USA to not trade with another country?
It's that simple.

If we choose not to that's called "sanctions". It means, we don't want to do business with you anymore.

Michael

Smartening up because they are getting fed up with the violence or because they are blaming their religion, according to you?

BTw, sam how many people died because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_for_food) barbarity? but hey, i guess Michael supported that as well

Smartening up because they are getting fed up with the violence or because they are blaming their religion, according to you?

Actually relative to Americans, anyone can look smart. Especially in Iraq. :D

/jk

lol

Yeah, MUCH better to have malleable dictators who use chemical weapons on their own people. Yup, great argument there.

Chemical weapons?

I simply asked, do you agree that each country has a right to not trade with countries that are hostile to them?


Do I think the use of CHM weapons is acceptable? NO. I never said that at all.


Nothing would make me happier than to see the USA have absolutely nothing to do with the ME, its dictators and it problems.

Let the Russians, Indians and Chinese deal with that mess.

Michael

Smartening up because they are getting fed up with the violence or because they are blaming their religion, according to you?No they are realizing that scripture is not perfect and can be used to justify anything. I think the Xians went through a similar phase right before they kicked Xianity out of political power.

Basically, you have to hit bottom before you can go up again.

No they are realizing that scripture is not perfect and can be used to justify anything. I think the Xians went through a similar phase right before they kicked Xianity out of political power.

Basically, you have to hit bottom before you can go up again.

Uh no, thats not what happened. Read the article again.

No they are realizing that scripture is not perfect and can be used to justify anything. I think the Xians went through a similar phase right before they kicked Xianity out of political power.

Basically, you have to hit bottom before you can go up again.

First of all the link to the article is broken methinks. Anyway from your quotes that is not what they want. They are merely doubting some of their clerics who they used to trust.

When you doubt a cleric you usually go find a better one - not quit the beleif altogether. Leavening Islam suggests they are "leaving Islam" not leaving a particular cleric.

Does that mean Saddam was an atheist?

When you doubt a cleric you usually go find a better one - not quit the beleif altogether. Leavening Islam suggests they are "leaving Islam" not leaving a particular cleric.

Where can they go? IIRC there are strict curfews in most parts of Iraq and travelling from here to there, unless youre a politician or soldier or that sort of stuff is very hard. But you do accept that they are not saying the scriptures are wrong, merely that they dont like some of the clerics anymore?

Does that mean Saddam was an atheist?probably - maybe not in the end.

... was atheist ... my dear not .. an atheist. YOU are atheist too remember? :) unless you started worshiping Xenu :p


http://www.lermanet.com/image/southpark-xenu.jpg

Where can they go? IIRC there are strict curfews in most parts of Iraq and travelling from here to there, unless youre a politician or soldier or that sort of stuff is very hard. But you do accept that they are not saying the scriptures are wrong, merely that they dont like some of the clerics anymore?Yes, I accept that.

tangent
I sometimes wonder if it's even genetically possible for a majority of the population to become that skeptical after a life time of neural-reenforcement. Maybe it's just not a physical possibility - altering those connections may take a critical level of specific proteins that are never going to be present.


Still, it seems many young people in Iraq (and Iran) don't want to live under religious rule. That's at least a start.

probably

That probably explains it.

Yes, I accept that.

tangent
I sometimes wonder if it's even genetically possible for a majority of the population to become that skeptical after a life time of neural-reenforcement. Maybe it's just not a physical possibility - altering those connections may take a critical level of specific proteins that are never going to be present.


Still, it seems many young people in Iraq (and Iran) don't want to live under religious rule. That's at least a start.

Do you usually confuse outliers for means ?

Yes, I accept that.

tangent
I sometimes wonder if it's even genetically possible for a majority of the population to become that skeptical after a life time of neural-reenforcement. Maybe it's just not a physical possibility - altering those connections may take a critical level of specific proteins that are never going to be present.


Still, it seems many young people in Iraq (and Iran) don't want to live under religious rule. That's at least a start.

So now you are somehow superior than them :rolleyes: the thing is, that article, or the parts you quoted, doesnt say they dont want to live in a religious country. The only thing that the quotes tell us is that they have become incredibly disenchanted with the way things are going. And why shouldnt they be? After all, they are young students, their lives are just beginning and their country has been ruined beyond repair for no other reason than their oil being sold in Euros instead of Dollars.

I qualified the statement with it seems

The sample size was all of 40.

As for Iran, that's just what Reza says. Young people would rather listen to American Pop and drink and have sex than worship on God. You know, like normal kids everywhere.

I still think faith should be a part of society in order to set a moral code and optimism. Otherwise, the liberals will just get their way and ruin society.
However, I am opposed to extremism. So, I really don't know what to think of this........I would've been far more happy if they had said "We know that they lie about God's word, and we are going to worship our interpretation" or something along that lines.

So now you are somehow superior than them :rolleyes: the thing is, that article, or the parts you quoted, doesnt say they dont want to live in a religious country. The only thing that the quotes tell us is that they have become incredibly disenchanted with the way things are going. And why shouldnt they be? After all, they are young students, their lives are just beginning and their country has been ruined beyond repair for no other reason than their oil being sold in Euros instead of Dollars.No I don't think I'm superior. I just have information they don't. Also, it may be true - it's certainly not easy to learn a second language after a critical age. Maybe it's the same sort of thing?


Anyway, it's hard to say what they really want. Perhaps they want to live in a country with a secular government and Islamic culture? I don't think these guys are in the mind to put their trust in religious leader as politicians! That much seemed to come across to me. They don't trust the religious leaders and they don't trust their politicians either.

I still think faith should be a part of society in order to set a moral code and optimism. Otherwise, the liberals will just get their way and ruin society.
However, I am opposed to extremism. So, I really don't know what to think of this........I would've been far more happy if they had said "We know that they lie about God's word, and we are going to worship our interpretation" or something along that lines.In the West this resulted in the Protestant movement and ultimately freedom from Religious rule. It took a few century's.

Maybe there'll be a Protestant movement in Iraq?

Actually, I'm sure Religions like Baha'i could make big inroads if they had the freedom to evangelize Iraqis.

I qualified the statement with it seems

The sample size was all of 40.

As for Iran, that's just what Reza says. Young people would rather listen to American Pop and drink and have sex than worship on God. You know, like normal kids everywhere.

Of course. :rolleyes:

If Reza says it, it cannot be false. Do all Iranians also secretly desire to be Reza, by any chance?

bahaism is, or atleast, was a part of Islam for some time. Its just another stream Shia Islam, the teachings about the Bab etc. And the reason Bahaism will never convert Muslims is because Bahaullah claimed divinity for himself.

No I don't think I'm superior. I just have information they don't. Also, it may be true - it's certainly not easy to learn a second language after a critical age. Maybe it's the same sort of thing?


Anyway, it's hard to say what they really want. Perhaps they want to live in a country with a secular government and Islamic culture? I don't think these guys are in the mind to put their trust in religious leader as politicians! That much seemed to come across to me. They don't trust the religious leaders and they don't trust their politicians either.

Trust me, Iraqis dont trust anyone nowadays :( All the demonstrations in the world could not avert their mass slaughter

In the West this resulted in the Protestant movement and ultimately freedom from Religious rule. It took a few century's.

Maybe there'll be a Protestant movement in Iraq?

Actually, I'm sure Religions like Baha'i could make big inroads if they had the freedom to evangelize Iraqis.

Eh.....my point is, the things that are ruining tradition and society are the stupid concepts of libertarianism and immoral atheism.

Trust me, Iraqis dont trust anyone nowadays :( All the demonstrations in the world could not avert their mass slaughter

Have you seen or read Betrayed?

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/03/26/070326fa_fact_packer

Don't mind Michael, he gets his knowledge of the ME from atheist Iranians. ;)

bahaism is, or atleast, was a part of Islam for some time. Its just another stream Shia Islam, the teachings about the Bab etc. And the reason Bahaism will never convert Muslims is because Bahaullah claimed divinity for himself.


Don't confuse him with unnecessary details. :D

So do you think these Iraqis will move away from the Ithanshara theology?

Of course. :rolleyes:

If Reza says it, it cannot be false. Do all Iranians also secretly desire to be Reza, by any chance?
Look, Reza and I definitely don't see eye to eye on many things. For example Reza erroneously thinks Jews are a race. Which is absurd - and so I told him. He also has all sorts of ideas about Jews. Like they have all this power. One day I said, God Damn Reza, if I knew Jews had so much sway I'd have converted back when I was a kid! He went blank for a moment :D Then said, that's impossible Jews are a race. I said, so what I move here to AU and tell everyone I'm a Jew - the whole place is MINE! He seriously replied - they'd find out.

Haa - I was totally joking and he was so serious.


Another point.

I said the borders for Israel should be set as they are today.
Reza said: Look mate, Israel is a cancer, they have to return to the boards of 1967 of there can not be peace.

Etc... etc... etc...

The main thing we agree on is atheism.

Michael

bahaism is, or atleast, was a part of Islam for some time. Its just another stream Shia Islam, the teachings about the Bab etc. And the reason Bahaism will never convert Muslims is because Bahaullah claimed divinity for himself.Well - as an Adam. Anyway, there are a lot of Baha'i around Sydney. Nice people. They tried to convert me once :)

Actually, I'm sure Religions like Baha'i could make big inroads if they had the freedom to evangelize Iraqis.

Well now you're just completely fantasizing and saying whatever pops into your head. Iraqis love their religion, and they're never converting to anything else - with or without the evangelization from other faiths. They've had Islam for what, a little less than 1,400 years now? Trust me - Islam ain't going nowhere. In fact, it's bound to simply rise in numbers, just as it continuously has since its birth.

Your sample of 40 perturbed teenagers living in a misunderstood warzone is not very persuasive. Iraqis have all the freedom in the world to change their religion, just as they have in their illustrious past. There's a reason as to why they've remained Muslim.

Apparently even the Jews think they are a race.

The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism, the traditional faith of the Jewish nation, are strongly interrelated,

Within the world's Jewish population, which is considered a single self-identifying ethnic group, there are distinct ethnic divisions, most of which are primarily the result of geographic branching from an originating Israelite population, and subsequent independent evolutions.

Nd he's right that until very very recently (like after the formation of Israel), jews were born, not converted.

Yeah, but I seriously hope Jews today know that the majority of them are direct descendents from Turkic Khazars, who themselves converted to Judaism. They are certainly not a race.

Yeah, but I seriously hope Jews today know that the majority of them are direct descendents from Turkic Khazars, who themselves converted to Judaism. They are certainly not a race.

Jews follow matrilineal descent.

Not all of them do. Some people just convert. There are Chinese Jews.

Kadark,

Come on Kadark, it's hardly safe to convert out of Islam.
In some countries in the ME - it's even against the law.
You know, the whole, if you are born Muslim then you're not allowed to convert to another faith thing.

Michael

Nd he's right that until very very recently (like after the formation of Israel), jews were born, not converted. I've always considered that an attractive feature of the religion.

It's an example of what happens when conversion is not coerced -it's always been possible to convert to Judaism, it's just that without evangelical pressure of some kind people don't convert to religions like that very often.

I know three converts to Judaism - two women and one man. Nothing to do with Israel, btw.

2000 years ago Judaism was a proselytizing religion - upwards to 1 in 5 people were Jewish in the Roman empire. Hence Christianity.


Anyway, I'm not saying it's a good thing for Iraqi's to leave Islam. But it's good that they are being critical. They now know what it would be like to live under a Theocracy. Nothing like the "good old days" yadda yadda... so maybe they'll work towards a secular democracy?

I've always considered that an attractive feature of the religion.

It's an example of what happens when conversion is not coerced -it's always been possible to convert to Judaism, it's just that without evangelical pressure of some kind people don't convert to religions like that very often.

I know three converts to Judaism - two women and one man. Nothing to do with Israel, btw.

Probably, but from what I have heard, it depends on who is sponsoring you and that in itself is a major issue.

In the United States of America, Reform Judaism rejects the concept that any rules or rituals should be considered necessary for conversion to Judaism. In the late 1800s, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the official body of American Reform rabbis, formally resolved to permit the admission of converts "without any initiatory rite, ceremony, or observance whatever." (CCAR Yearbook 3 (1893), 73-95; American Reform Responsa (ARR), no. 68, at 236-237.)

Orthodox Jewish groups are not unified, and different orthodox communities may hold themselves as more strictly correct in observance than others, or consider others' religious observances of inadequate strictness and validity. As such, Orthodox rabbis often will not automatically accept each other's authority, which has led to a general reluctance in the Orthodox communities to prepare and perform conversions. The term 'Haredi' refers to communities that advocate a strict observation of traditional Jewish law.

This issue recently reached a crisis point when the (Orthodox) Chief Rabbinate of Israel changed its requirements for conversion without informing American Orthodox rabbis, and began systematically rejecting most Orthodox Jewish conversions done outside of Israel. The Chief Rabbinate of Israel began to reject all American Orthodox Jewish conversions done by any Orthodox rabbi, except those on a short list of rabbis, numbering less than fifty, some of them deceased.

Also, conversion to Judaism is irreversible.

Not all of them do. Some people just convert. There are Chinese Jews.

Thats interesting. Which province are they from?