HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You all believe that your own perspectives are true but you are all trying to bite your own tails! It's sooooo amusing and yet so sad to see so many people trying to explain their own perceptions of the world!!!!!

You barely realize that your perceptions are limited to yourselves and that you cannot communicate those perceptions without redefining words and mixing up meanings! It's all pointless! Life is not to be understood, it is to be lived! And you are all insane because you actually believe your own udnerstanding of the world as something true!!! :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :D :D
*falls out of chair laughing histerically*

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You all believe that your own perspectives are true but you are all trying to bite your own tails! It's sooooo amusing and yet so sad to see so many people trying to explain their own perceptions of the world!!!!!

You barely realize that your perceptions are limited to yourselves and that you cannot communicate those perceptions without redefining words and mixing up meanings! It's all pointless! Life is not to be understood, it is to be lived! And you are all insane because you actually believe your own udnerstanding of the world as something true!!! :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :D :
*falls out of chair laughing histerically*

:m:.....

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You all believe that your own perspectives are true but you are all trying to bite your own tails! It's sooooo amusing and yet so sad to see so many people trying to explain their own perceptions of the world!!!!!

You barely realize that your perceptions are limited to yourselves and that you cannot communicate those perceptions without redefining words and mixing up meanings! It's all pointless! Life is not to be understood, it is to be lived! And you are all insane because you actually believe your own udnerstanding of the world as something true!!! :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :D :D
*falls out of chair laughing histerically*
oph dear, is you alright?!

say your persective is to poison Nature. and mine isn't to do that. whose right?

Nobody. There is no right or wrong, that's only subjective.
------

TruthSeeker, never say "all", you don't know all those reading this.

Life is not to be understood, it is to be lived!
Well said.

*laughing hysterically*

oph dear, is you alright?!

say your persective is to poison Nature. and mine isn't to do that. whose right?
Tha's the whole point, sir!! :D :p

I too think that that's the most important thing - the experience of being alive.

*laughing hysterically*

Don't overdose :m: :p

Nobody. There is no right or wrong, that's only subjective.
------

TruthSeeker, never say "all", you don't know all those reading this.
Everyone has different perspectives! That's undeniable! You are confined to your own mind!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D :D :D

I am confident there is a mind, that's all.

I am confident there is a mind, that's all.
an matter-energy of course

This universe is energy,
matter is one of the manifestations of it,
mind is a process which involves matter and energy.
You know my knowledge, I am not going to discuss it with you again.

Still!! Those are your perceptions!!!! :D:D:D

This universe is energy,
matter is one of the manifestations of it.
yes, interchangeable, and their is conciousness which is unmeasureable. put your ruler aWAY....boyyyfriend

Still!! Those are your perceptions!!!!

So are you too, actually. ;)

So are you too, actually. ;)
Yes indeed!!! Which is why I'm laughing hysterically uncontrollably!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :D :D
*falls down chair crying of laughter*

I heard laughing is healthy, keep it on, heh

p.s. You don't really need weed to realise that ;)

I still don't understand why you find this such an amusing topic. It seems as though you're acting quite "insane." Unfortunately, there is no such thing as "truth" because what we believe as truth is always our perspective. Thus, your new philosophy on life is simply a perception and you are then no different from everyone else posting on these forums.. Does this mean that you are laughing "hysterically uncontrollably" at yourself, oh "enlightened one?"

Does anyone else find it ironic that he/she posts with the name "TruthSeeker?"

How can you say that there's no such thing as truth? It's bothered me for sometime now how everyone's adopted this hypertolerance for other beliefs.

words like "relative" and "tolerant" and "perception" are thrown around as buzzwords - they no longer mean anything in actual conversation.

I say something like "I believe in God, that is the truth."
And the casual Im-gonna-blow-your-mind-with-my-enlgihtenment guy beside me says something like "But there is no truth! so many people believe in other gods, most of you have to be wrong! It's a matter of perception man, you can't believe anything, its all relative."

And, as the conversation progresses, I will be labelled intolerant or close-minded, not because of my lack of tolerance, but almost for the fact that I won't celebrate beliefs that I don't hold to be true as true.


It's true that what we think of as truth is relative to our prespectives, but it doesn't make it any less the truth. people's prespectives can very easily be wrong, and people under obvoius fallacies should be disabused.

my apologies for ranting, im done i promise.

*laughing hysterically*

that kid of yours finally drove you insane?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You all believe that your own perspectives are true but you are all trying to bite your own tails! It's sooooo amusing and yet so sad to see so many people trying to explain their own perceptions of the world!!!!!

You barely realize that your perceptions are limited to yourselves and that you cannot communicate those perceptions without redefining words and mixing up meanings! It's all pointless! Life is not to be understood, it is to be lived! And you are all insane because you actually believe your own udnerstanding of the world as something true!!! :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :D :D
*falls out of chair laughing histerically*



i do not use my eyes to see, so you cant tell me im blind,


peace,

Think fast, move slow, choose wisely, its all realitive?

I still don't understand why you find this such an amusing topic.
Ahhhh... because I see a whole bunch of people that believe in their own perspectives.

It seems as though you're acting quite "insane."
You are all insane!! :p

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as "truth" because what we believe as truth is always our perspective.
That's wrong. There is a truth. It's just not accessible because of our limited subjective perspectives.

Thus, your new philosophy on life is simply a perception and you are then no different from everyone else posting on these forums..
I'm quite different. I look around and I see everyone discussing according to their own experiences. Even you! And me! :eek:

Does this mean that you are laughing "hysterically uncontrollably" at yourself, oh "enlightened one?"
I'm laughing at the human insignificance.

Does anyone else find it ironic that he/she posts with the name "TruthSeeker?"
I love irony. My middle name is irony.

LOL! :D

How can you say that there's no such thing as truth?
I didn't. He did.

It's bothered me for sometime now how everyone's adopted this hypertolerance for other beliefs.
Yes, indeed.

words like "relative" and "tolerant" and "perception" are thrown around as buzzwords - they no longer mean anything in actual conversation.
True.

I say something like "I believe in God, that is the truth."
And the casual Im-gonna-blow-your-mind-with-my-enlgihtenment guy beside me says something like "But there is no truth! so many people believe in other gods, most of you have to be wrong! It's a matter of perception man, you can't believe anything, its all relative."
This is new. This is post-modern absurdutism. This is the new meaning of pure meaninglessness. And I'm talking shit! :D

And, as the conversation progresses, I will be labelled intolerant or close-minded, not because of my lack of tolerance, but almost for the fact that I won't celebrate beliefs that I don't hold to be true as true.
Everyone and everything is labeled. It's called "word".

It's true that what we think of as truth is relative to our prespectives, but it doesn't make it any less the truth. people's prespectives can very easily be wrong, and people under obvoius fallacies should be disabused.
Hard to find the wrong ones when you yourself has a subjective perspective.

my apologies for ranting, im done i promise.
Please don't go away! :eek:

that kid of yours finally drove you insane?
School as well...

i do not use my eyes to see, so you cant tell me im blind,


peace,
You are the wisest so far.

Think fast, move slow, choose wisely, its all realitive?
Eh? :confused:

Welcome! ;)

Hey TruthSeeker, what's that behind you?!

If you looked back, then you're officially insane.;)

*Posts sign that says "Please do not feed the nut"*

Fork over the weed, dude. You're not sharing, and that's not very nice.

Truthseeker is incorrect.

Truthseeker is incorrect.
exactamo...he's done got a big ed at the mo.....and its showin

agreed, but what about the thread starter? He states that his belief is that everyone else is incorrect. I did not say that I am correct. Rather the truth is out there, but no one can know it.

If you could know the infiniteness of all for a moment and then die, would you? Or would you continue living and searching endlessly to grasp to the next clue?

And I do have a boner, but thats another story. Maybe my statement that he is incorrect IS a personal assessment, but it is to show that he is placing himself above "all" when he is a part of "all." It is inescapable.

Even God, the all powerful blah bah blah, has the Devil to battle with. He must have gotten bored knowing everything and so threw some dude into hell to rule. (although Vampires were the first keepers of Hell). Truthseeker cannot laugh forever. One day he'll be staring down a double barrelled shotgun, then who'll be laughing...... its not him

agreed, but what about the thread starter? He states that his belief is that everyone else is incorrect. I did not say that I am correct. Rather the truth is out there, but no one can know it.

me)))yeah...an annoyin...'heyyyy I can see, yo can't'---and everything you say is met with 'see!'

If you could know the infiniteness of all for a moment and then die, would you? Or would you continue living and searching endlessly to grasp to the next clue?

me)))))))infinite comes WIY finite and vice versa. so it's a continuum. ther's no 'end point' as it were...haha

And I do have a boner, but thats another story. Maybe my statement that he is incorrect IS a personal assessment, but it is to show that he is placing himself above "all" when he is a part of "all." It is inescapable.

me)))your boney is your libido---is your fertileness.pagan gods were sometoimesdepcted with permanent bponers to symbolize erotic energy

Even God, the all powerful blah bah blah, has the Devil to battle with. He must have gotten bored knowing everything and so threw some dude into hell to rule. (although Vampires were the first keepers of Hell). Truthseeker cannot laugh forever. One day he'll be staring down a double barrelled shotgun, then who'll be laughing...... its not him
hope not. te 'God' vs 'Devil' trip is strictly patriarchal propaganda!

*falls out of chair laughing histerically*
What's even funnier is it's taken you in excess of 8000 posts of your own tail chasing to realise. Excuse me while I get the oxygen the laughter is killing me :p

It took him 20+ years to find out truth is relative.

haha.

Truth is not relative, but our perceptions of it are.

But you're right, it is rather amusing. Even more so, that he now seeks to mock those who have been pointing it out for quite a long time now and whom he used to argue against.

Hey TruthSeeker, what's that behind you?!

If you looked back, then you're officially insane.;)
Oh my God! I see a giant flying spaghety monster! :bugeye: :eek:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :D :D*falls down chair crying of laughter*
you might be right

e ;) s

agreed, but what about the thread starter? He states that his belief is that everyone else is incorrect. I did not say that I am correct. Rather the truth is out there, but no one can know it.
No, I didn't say I'm correct either. What I said is that it's funny to realize that everyone is chasing after their own tails, including me! :D
(And I said in another thread:
I'm creating this thread because nothing makes sense and I just found out I'm a post-modern absurdutist. I'm not sure what the truth is and the fact that a truth exists is puzzling to me. The relativity of our perceptions denies the concept of truth and therefore I don't exist, you don't exist and nothing exists because it just doesn't make any sense. Therefore I shall leave you with the possibility that the impossible is all that exist in this universe where everything that should not have happen has somehow happened (i.e. life! And human life for that matter!)

If you could know the infiniteness of all for a moment and then die, would you? Or would you continue living and searching endlessly to grasp to the next clue?
I rather do the searching. It can be fun...

And I do have a boner, but thats another story.
What?

Maybe my statement that he is incorrect IS a personal assessment, but it is to show that he is placing himself above "all" when he is a part of "all." It is inescapable.
No I don't. I recognize I'm also chasing my own tail. The difference is that I know that and I have stopped it. ;)

Even God, the all powerful blah bah blah, has the Devil to battle with.
That's what you think. ;)

He must have gotten bored knowing everything and so threw some dude into hell to rule. (although Vampires were the first keepers of Hell). Truthseeker cannot laugh forever. One day he'll be staring down a double barrelled shotgun, then who'll be laughing...... its not him
Why would I be in such situation?

It took him 20+ years to find out truth is relative.

haha.
No it didn't. I have stated many times in this forums that truth is relative. I have started many threads on the subject, including the Objective Semantics thread. What took me about 20 years to find out is that the meaningless of the universe is the very factor that gives it meaning. And a few other things that are coming together...

Truth is not relative, but our perceptions of it are.
Precisely.

But you're right, it is rather amusing. Even more so, that he now seeks to mock those who have been pointing it out for quite a long time now and whom he used to argue against.
If you are still arguing about anything, you have yet to understand what's going on. :eek:

I see threads around like "Chromosome Challenge for Muslim", "A fundamental error of the cogito " ( :p ), "Common sense knowledge that you didn't see ", "7 stages of creation"... see? You are all stuck still! You still haven't realized! No matter how many times people said "huh everything is relative" which is a stupid cliche, it doesn't matter! You still don't see it with your own eyes! And once I saw it, it was quite entertaining. :D

You are the wisest so far.


but no matter how wise my earthly form becomes, i still know nothing about the true universe and its nature,


peace.

Truth is not relative, but our perceptions of it are.


How can you know truth is not relative if your perception is?

but no matter how wise my earthly form becomes, i still know nothing about the true universe and its nature,


peace.
True.

Nice! I can actually have a conversation at sciforums! :rolleyes: :D

How can you know truth is not relative if your perception is?
Altough the universe is quite chaotic, it must be stable enough to support our existance so, therefore, it must not be relative. Something must be absolute in order for some form of stability to exist.

That's just your perception. You have no clue if your perception its true.

i feel that most debates on here are nothing but peoples ego's and opinions blazing in a heated battle,

rather than real constructive proggress in a calm manner, i personaly think fear is the root of this, fear of death makes people subconsciously aggressive in everyday life, and people who have deamons inside that they havent come to terms with and solved yet, but its personal opinion, i usually find people who are not in connection with there spiritual are most nasty, and people who turn completely to religion end up bieng ignorant, people who have no spiritual side and only turn to science end up dead inside and have heavy attitudes,


i find people who have met someway in the middle of science and spirituality are best to have conversation with, ie somebody who has a spiritual side and delves into it to understand more, but also to study modern science, what i love about science is its investigation and first hand experimentations, but what i hate about the modern science culture, is that they think they know too much and treat science like a cult,


anyways ive spoke to much,


peace.

That's just your perception. You have no clue if your perception its true.



exactly, but his perception is not stuck in stone as he is aware that perception in ultimate truth dosent even matter,


peace.

Altough the universe is quite chaotic, it must be stable enough to support our existance so, therefore, it must not be relative. Something must be absolute in order for some form of stability to exist.
Wouldn't the keywords be - 'stable enough'? It can be chaotic at a small, quantum level so long everything seems to follow the rules when you look at it from further away...

E.g. a chess game - does it matter if a piece isn't exactly in the centre of its square? So long as it's obvious which square it's in, that small amount of 'chaos' doesn't affect the overall game.

truthseeker said exactly that, "stable enough"


peace.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as "truth" because what we believe as truth is always our perspective.

That's wrong. There is a truth. It's just not accessible because of our limited subjective perspectives.



You are proving my point...Part of your perception of life is that you believe there has to be truth. Therefore, it's quite possible that truth doesn't exist and you only believe that it does due to your "limited subjective perspectives."

An example of this type of "paradox" is the creation of the universe. Humans naturally are forced to believe that the universe had to be created, whether by the big bang, god, etc. However, we then realize that something had to create the "creator" --whether it be a God or the first little subatomic particle. As this follows to infinity in our minds, we realize that its likely that our natural logic is most likely wrong.

Yes, I agree with alot of shadowpuppets info here. I think that there are actual "facts." That is to say, reality is REAL, but I may not be able to fully "comprehend" it. But I have a pretty good idea.... (Or so I THINK)

In which case - truth can be relative. Just not too relative.

You are proving my point...Part of your perception of life is that you believe there has to be truth. Therefore, it's quite possible that truth doesn't exist and you only believe that it does due to your "limited subjective perspectives."
Yes, but since the truth is basically required for a universe stable enough to support us, then one can deduct that truth exists!

An example of this type of "paradox" is the creation of the universe. Humans naturally are forced to believe that the universe had to be created, whether by the big bang, god, etc. However, we then realize that something had to create the "creator" --whether it be a God or the first little subatomic particle. As this follows to infinity in our minds, we realize that its likely that our natural logic is most likely wrong.
Yes. So how was the universe created? :D

In which case - truth can be relative. Just not too relative.
Truth is never relative. It is our perception of the truth that is relative.

How can you know truth is not relative if your perception is?

Let me just repeat my post then.

Seems to me like we're all ants trying to find grains of sugar.

I honestly feel like people put too much weight on "truth". When we die, for all we know, we'll just be gone and truth won't matter anymore. Who knows?

The truth about life after death is that its never been proven to be, and that humans like to think that they are going to continue on because they are afraid of death. If death is "nothingness," then I don't care, if death isn't actually death of mind, then ok, Im down dawg.

TRUTH: "REALITY AS HUMANS PERCIEVE IT"

FACTS: "REALITY AS IT IS"

LIES: "Things contrary to reality" (I just thought that I'd add that in :P )

shadowpuppet:

It's true that what we think of as truth is relative to our prespectives, but it doesn't make it any less the truth. people's prespectives can very easily be wrong, and people under obvoius fallacies should be disabused.

I agree completely.

If somebody says "2+2=5" then they are wrong, regardless of how firmly they believe it. Some things are just true, and it isn't a matter of perspective. It is not true that "all perceptions are equally valid". Some perceptions are just wrong, as is easily proved by looking at a few facts.

In a discussion on the merits of vegetarianism on this forum, I have been having a similar discussion in regard to ethics. It is a common defence of people who worry that they might be acting unethically to say "Ethics is all relative. One ethical view is as good as another." But that's no more true than is the statement that 2+2=5.

You are proving my point...Part of your perception of life is that you believe there has to be truth. Therefore, it's quite possible that truth doesn't exist and you only believe that it does due to your "limited subjective perspectives."

Yes, but since the truth is basically required for a universe stable enough to support us, then one can deduct that truth exists!

Or so you perceive..... :D

No.
TRUTH: "REALITY AS HUMANS PERCIEVE IT"
Truth: Objective
Reality: Subjective perception

FACTS: "REALITY AS IT IS"
Facts: "Parts of the truth"


;)

I agree completely.

If somebody says "2+2=5" then they are wrong, regardless of how firmly they believe it. Some things are just true, and it isn't a matter of perspective. It is not true that "all perceptions are equally valid". Some perceptions are just wrong, as is easily proved by looking at a few facts.

In a discussion on the merits of vegetarianism on this forum, I have been having a similar discussion in regard to ethics. It is a common defence of people who worry that they might be acting unethically to say "Ethics is all relative. One ethical view is as good as another." But that's no more true than is the statement that 2+2=5.
Well, I cannot object to that...

Or so you perceive..... :D
Shut up! :D
Damn you! :D

Maybe 2+2=4 is true, but is it the truth?

Maybe 2+2=4 is true, but is it the truth?
What do you mean?

What's the point of discussing anyways? Life has no meaning and truth is irrelevant. So why don't we just go get drunk and laid and enjoy the rest of our lives? :D

What's the point of discussing anyways? Life has no meaning and truth is irrelevant. So why don't we just go get drunk and laid and enjoy the rest of our lives? :D


Ain't dat the truth! ;)

Yes. That's the whole point. :)

Who said otherwise? :confused:

What's the point of discussing anyways?

me)))))))well ye still here 'discussin'........aren't ya?

Life has no meaning and truth is irrelevant.

me)))))))life ISMeanig. your 'epiphany' is pseudo!

So why don't we just go get drunk and laid and enjoy the rest of our lives? :D
too much drinking is bad for liver etc. was watching this news programme last night......an ex professional footballer was saying how he never thought of himself as a problem drinker, but as a social drinker.
we saw him in the hospital having his belly drained of fluid. it was grossly welled up, and where his navel was was like this big fist-sized globulate of flesh. tis was first tim i had seen someone with liver damage like tat. horrible,
we were told that drinking has increased amongst young people twicefold, and many are suffering similar problems as that

now if we weren't discussing you wouldn't have got to know this

many people here actually ENJOY discussing, lad, and learn things.....and share tngs

life ISMeanig. your 'epiphany' is pseudo!
Which epiphany?

I don't think you have understood what I said at all.... :eek:

So this whole thread was just started by you because you don't have much sex anymore after the birth of the baby wasn't it?

Which epiphany?

I don't think you have understood what I said at all.... :eek:
errrwellyeah, i know. like some schoolteacher fo last few days you've been arranging us into a and b students of 'how much' 'we understand' of your 'great insight'

that better?

So this whole thread was just started by you because you don't have much sex anymore after the birth of the baby wasn't it?

And get drunk enough... :D

many people here actually ENJOY discussing, lad, and learn things.....and share tngs


I agree completely. I"m here for the reasons above^ not so I can find one, final, enlightenment that will be the dictating philosophy in my life.

So this whole thread was just started by you because you don't have much sex anymore after the birth of the baby wasn't it?
No, not quite that.
I'm just having a crisis becaus the school term is ending and all my hard work has once again produced nothing. I'm tired of working like a madman my entire life for nothing. It all seems so meaningless... :(

I guess I never had that problem in school.

What's the point of discussing anyways? Life has no meaning and truth is irrelevant. So why don't we just go get drunk and laid and enjoy the rest of our lives? :D



exactly,


but, maybe it does have meaning if it means somethign to you, or maybe the universe does have a meaning, like the southpark episode,


when they find out the world was a huge reality TV show, and the real universe does not work thesame way that they made the people on earth think it did,

and everything was just a ploy, hey that could be true, and so could alot of other crap be true aswell,


but the mystery is the good part! not knowing is great it drives people and gives motivation and brings out the best in us all,


if god just came down one day and said, "ok you will all go to heaven when you die, the meaning of life is blah blah blah. and here are allt he answers you wanted to know"

you think the world would be fun anymore or different?, the world would be gay because nobody would cherish there life, they would all kill themselves and go to heaven or just stop learnign and trying to wonder about the universe, it would be gay to watch if we all knew,





anything is possible in existence, and we dont know shit and we all think we know the universe, its great to watch you mortals and your petty squabbles about shit that does not concern me,


sciforums is like my godly reality show in text form, i watch all you mortals fight and bicker about opinions and subjective views, and i watch tempers flare, i see ego's run rampent, i see compassion, i see emotion, i see my children sprouting before my eyes, i like it,

:)


peace.

No, not quite that.
I'm just having a crisis becaus the school term is ending and all my hard work has once again produced nothing. I'm tired of working like a madman my entire life for nothing. It all seems so meaningless... :(



we live to work until we retire, then we die, great!.


haha i didnt even go to school much, i went to jail at the age of 15, i have had fun all my life aswell as suffered alot, but i still have had fun, im only 21 i have alot of money i have buisness all over the place, i have great friends, a great wife, a really great family, and i enjoy every day of my life,

i earn more money than my friends who done highschool then done college then went to university, now they are in there mid twenties earning about 25k sterling per year. was it really all worth it? i earn more than that for doing something i love, (personal trainer) i also have ebay buisness ont he side, i dabble in stocks and shares, i have money all over the pace, i have 0% debt no credit cards no loans no mortgage, (i rent with my wife) we are moving this week to an area called finchley road, near swiss cottage in central west london, it is a high class area with million dollar mansions all over the place, and i didnt even go to school, but i have more than people who did,


work for the man and stick to there plan, hahaha,


i abuse this stupid government system, and gain alot legaly,

tax loopholes and other loopholes are a beautiful thing,


you guys on here might call me stupid, but how many of you earn over 100k sterling per year?

school is for chumps buisness is for winners,

haha peace.

Money ain't everything, buddy. I don't know about you( Well according to your post it seems that I do) , but I treasure learning and education. I believe that it is this which sets us apart from every other living creature...and it is this why our species is so great. -->Not because we can buy lots of shit.

haha so if money is not everything, then why do you all go to school to get good jobs then?


so you dont work to get money? why thats what i thought people work for, "to get money"

but i agree with you, mnoney is not everything, buit we all try to get some, how do you pay for your computer and internet if not with money?


if you want some money and are willing to work your whole life to get it, then why settle for chump change? why not get lots of money and do something you enjoy doing?

you dont have to work hard to get alot of cash,
peace.

Because we don't go to school to get good jobs?

so you dont go school college or uni to get a job?


then why the hell does everybody go to educational units if not to get a good job?


are you serious?


peace.

why do you work if its not to get money?

for the fun of working?

peace.

why do you work if its not to get money?

for the fun of working?



I have difficulties to call what I do work. It's more like doing a hobby. Or something silly.

I have difficulties to call what I do work. It's more like doing a hobby. Or something silly.



then you dont have the problem of working at a job you dont like for money,


thats perfect, thats how i think things should be, i hate seeing good men/women slaving away at a 9-5 just to get chump change out of it and stress themselves into an early grave,


peace.

but people do work to get money though you know that is true,

99% of the time.

peace.

It's impossible for us all to be rich. Some people actually have to wipe your ass if you don't do it.

yeah thats true, poor people are needed in society, and thats why the government keeps the lower class in there place,

and the government need to keept he people fighting each other and segregated socialy in classes, because if we are united they see a threat to there power over us,

so they keep us hating each other etc etc,


school is a tool to get kids fot for there society, its all about money and power in society, the laws are there for tax money only, not to help the people in any way,



anyways yeah im done bashing the gov,


peace.

haha so if money is not everything, then why do you all go to school to get good jobs then?

so you dont work to get money? why thats what i thought people work for, "to get money"

We go to school for knowledge and learning. We get good jobs because, hopefully, we enjoy the job, we like being a contribution to society, and because Money is necessary.


but i agree with you, mnoney is not everything, buit we all try to get some, how do you pay for your computer and internet if not with money?

With Money! Did I ever say Money isn't important?

if you want some money and are willing to work your whole life to get it, then why settle for chump change? why not get lots of money and do something you enjoy doing?

I don't disagree. I'm simply saying that despite this, there are some things that are much more important than money--and one of these I feel is education.

you dont have to work hard to get alot of cash,

In your case, no (obviously), but for others its a completely different case.
peace.

--------------------------------------

you said this,

"We go to school for knowledge and learning. We get good jobs because, hopefully, we enjoy the job, we like being a contribution to society, and because Money is necessary."

i dont actualy think that is true for most people to be honest.


but everythign else you said i agree with nearly,


peace.

No, not quite that.
I'm just having a crisis becaus the school term is ending and all my hard work has once again produced nothing. I'm tired of working like a madman my entire life for nothing. It all seems so meaningless... :(
oh man, i really feel you, and really respct your honesty here.
I will say that ...why do we do it to ourselves. do stuff we hate. know that you dont hav to. i know you have a ababy. but if you really want you can get ot of te cage your in. if your not happy and feel everyting's meaningless which it sounds it is for you. you hate your job and son on. you will take that home.
loads of pople are feeling the curse of tis tupid fukin frantic culure racing to destruction. i have heard of pople givin up well-paid jobs and didn't regret it.
there could be eco communews you could think about going to. somehow looking for some micro communities going on in thei manic materialistic world. some where where you and your partner and kid can have ,,,SPACE...space to LIVE...ahhhhhhhhhh.....fuck all the hype of tis ahallow culture. it might nothappen straight away....but uer's me going on. what is it YOU want??...what would give you and your loved ones MEANING do you feel?

I guess I never had that problem in school.
Only brilliant intellectual, creative and innovative minds have that problem at school. :D :D :D

Money ain't everything, buddy. I don't know about you( Well according to your post it seems that I do) , but I treasure learning and education. I believe that it is this which sets us apart from every other living creature...and it is this why our species is so great. -->Not because we can buy lots of shit.
Well, first of all, I have a family to take care of. So money is absolutely an issue for me. Second, the education system wasn't designed to teach people, it was designed to create living machines that keep the society going JUST AS IT IS. So I absolutely hate it.

If the educational system was designed to teach people about life, I would love it.

FUCK! I'm putting my child in a Waldorf school. I don't care it cost me more, it will be better for him. :bugeye:

oh man, i really feel you, and really respct your honesty here.
I will say that ...why do we do it to ourselves. do stuff we hate. know that you dont hav to. i know you have a ababy. but if you really want you can get ot of te cage your in. if your not happy and feel everyting's meaningless which it sounds it is for you. you hate your job and son on. you will take that home.
loads of pople are feeling the curse of tis tupid fukin frantic culure racing to destruction. i have heard of pople givin up well-paid jobs and didn't regret it.
there could be eco communews you could think about going to. somehow looking for some micro communities going on in thei manic materialistic world. some where where you and your partner and kid can have ,,,SPACE...space to LIVE...ahhhhhhhhhh.....fuck all the hype of tis ahallow culture. it might nothappen straight away....but uer's me going on. what is it YOU want??...what would give you and your loved ones MEANING do you feel?
Well, sadly enough, capitalism is eliminating that space. By the time my child is my age, there might be no escape from capitalism... :(

Which is why I'm using all my strenght to try to change it.... :eek:

haha so if money is not everything, then why do you all go to school to get good jobs then?
Because some of us want to pursue careers that are intellectually stimulating, rewarding and that contribute to society in significant ways, as opposed to being a high-school dropout, ex-con, Bruce Lee-wannabe dime-a-dozen personal trainer with an eBay store on the side. I’m really happy for you that you are happy, that’s great :) . But some of us want more than to merely look after #1. I won't sit by and let you disparage others for wanting to pursue academic knowledge and achievements. These lead to people who are doctors, engineers, scientists and numerous other specialist occupations that are vitally important to society. 21 year old personal trainers who run martial arts schools are not; they are entirely dispensable.

Well, first of all, I have a family to take care of. So money is absolutely an issue for me. Second, the education system wasn't designed to teach people, it was designed to create living machines that keep the society going JUST AS IT IS. So I absolutely hate it.

If the educational system was designed to teach people about life, I would love it.

FUCK! I'm putting my child in a Waldorf school. I don't care it cost me more, it will be better for him. :bugeye:


Of course money is an issue, and of course it is necessary. In your case, your family is more important than money to spend on yourself, and so the amount of money you have is directly proportional to your family's well being. This basically means that to you, money is what allows you to care for what is most important.

In terms of the education system being created to make living machines, this may or may not be true. Do you believe that universities and colleges are simply trying to create "machines" to keep society in a frozen state. Why then do they focus so much on research?

Because some of us want to pursue careers that are intellectually stimulating, rewarding and that contribute to society in significant ways, as opposed to being a high-school dropout, ex-con, Bruce Lee-wannabe dime-a-dozen personal trainer with an eBay store on the side. I’m really happy for you that you are happy, that’s great :) . But some of us want more than to merely look after #1. I won't sit by and let you disparage others for wanting to pursue academic knowledge and achievements. These lead to people who are doctors, engineers, scientists and numerous other specialist occupations that are vitally important to society. 21 year old personal trainers who run martial arts schools are not; they are entirely dispensable.


Well said. That is exactly what I have been trying to say, but couldn't seem to form the words. :)

Of course money is an issue, and of course it is necessary. In your case, your family is more important than money to spend on yourself, and so the amount of money you have is directly proportional to your family's well being. This basically means that to you, money is what allows you to care for what is most important.
Not that simple actually.... :eek:
But that's because of my own personality...

In terms of the education system being created to make living machines, this may or may not be true. Do you believe that universities and colleges are simply trying to create "machines" to keep society in a frozen state.
Ah, yes! :eek:

Why then do they focus so much on research?
You mean researching the past and coping it? :rolleyes:

You mean researching the past and coping it? :rolleyes:

No, I mean researching and publishing finds..researching to create and develop upon medicines, technology, etc.

<edit>From a distance, however, I can still see where your coming from. I just think that there is more to it.

Well, first of all, I have a family to take care of. So money is absolutely an issue for me. Second, the education system wasn't designed to teach people, it was designed to create living machines that keep the society going JUST AS IT IS. So I absolutely hate it.

me)))))yes, so do I. The institution of school has developed from a materialistic philosophy, which created industrial fascism, and like you see, means tis ideology sees us as machines. some 'lesser machines' tan others!! we are really agreed on this, right?

If the educational system was designed to teach people about life, I would love it.

me))))))Riiight ON. the ducation asystem being drilled ito our children very much does NOT, and THAT IS the problem. it is a false education, and as if it couldn't get worse is even 'dumbed down' now!

FUCK! I'm putting my child in a Waldorf school. I don't care it cost me more, it will be better for him. :bugeye:

OH SHIT!! i tought when iread that---a WALDORF school?????? andhad me searching my notes about it.
Yu know Trutseeker, you have spent quite a few days now saying how you see how we is ll insane and hat many of us are lashing poihts of views. BUT you seem oblivious obviouly to Rudolf Steiner's VERY insidious point of view if you intend to sacrfice your child to it.
SO, even tough i can see it's a dream of yours and tis may shakeya up a bit, plewase give some time to hearing me out, and then explore some yourself......i am goihg to give you some sources, notes about Waldorf schools and Steiner's ideas

www.w-reich.de/hdobant.pdf
(if not workin, let me know)

Steiner's ideas are commensurate wit Plato's and Descartes'---theVERY patriarchal ideas that have gotten us into the utter fukin mess we're in!

"By feeling, and emotion we are, says Steiner, separated from the cosmic unity, while by thinking we are universal beings permeating everything and being one with the universe. ANthroposophy wants to prove the superiority of spirit over matter, which "spiritualisation" is te prupose of life. Control of breathing shall free man from his animal state. Anthropsophy always operates from above to below, from idea t matter, from doctrine to reality. Look at the art children are forced to make at Waldorf schools: it is all made according to one scheme, there is no spontaneous expression. Also..."expressional dance", Eurythmics has nothing to do with spontaneous expression but it is all from te bran. Steiner says thehead has to control the brute "human animal" which constantly fights against the "spiritual power of higher evolution"
(in my notes i have put this address again differently from aformentioned one --ie., first one may not have worked..?):
www.w-reich.de/hdoeng11.htm

so, Truthseeker for FUCK's sake dont have your child indoctrinated with that divisive crap whatEVER you do! i mean this from the heart

No, I mean researching and publishing finds..researching to create and develop upon medicines, technology, etc.
Does that happen!?!!? :eek:

<edit>From a distance, however, I can still see where your coming from. I just think that there is more to it.
I used to think there's more to it. I used to think that researching would be exciting. But to be honest with you, everything, EVERYTHING in our society is based on the past. Even the legal system is based on the past. That's one of the reasons the world is a mess. We just keep basing everything in the past. The system is extremely outdated.

Even Keynesian economics is based on past. Which is why it is falling apart. But of course there are people that try to create new systems. And they often fail. But it's their work that can save this planet...

OH SHIT!! i tought when iread that---a WALDORF school?????? andhad me searching my notes about it.
Yu know Trutseeker, you have spent quite a few days now saying how you see how we is ll insane and hat many of us are lashing poihts of views. BUT you seem oblivious obviouly to Rudolf Steiner's VERY insidious point of view if you intend to sacrfice your child to it.
SO, even tough i can see it's a dream of yours and tis may shakeya up a bit, plewase give some time to hearing me out, and then explore some yourself......i am goihg to give you some sources, notes about Waldorf schools and Steiner's ideas

www.w-reich.de/hdobant.pdf
(if not workin, let me know)

Steiner's ideas are commensurate wit Plato's and Descartes'---theVERY patriarchal ideas that have gotten us into the utter fukin mess we're in!

"By feeling, and emotion we are, says Steiner, separated from the cosmic unity, while by thinking we are universal beings permeating everything and being one with the universe. ANthroposophy wants to prove the superiority of spirit over matter, which "spiritualisation" is te prupose of life. Control of breathing shall free man from his animal state. Anthropsophy always operates from above to below, from idea t matter, from doctrine to reality. Look at the art children are forced to make at Waldorf schools: it is all made according to one scheme, there is no spontaneous expression. Also..."expressional dance", Eurythmics has nothing to do with spontaneous expression but it is all from te bran. Steiner says thehead has to control the brute "human animal" which constantly fights against the "spiritual power of higher evolution"
(in my notes i have put this address again differently from aformentioned one --ie., first one may not have worked..?):
www.w-reich.de/hdoeng11.htm

so, Truthseeker for FUCK's sake dont have your child indoctrinated with that divisive crap whatEVER you do! i mean this from the heart
I will give that a read.

What I heard of Waldorf schools....
They are schools that foster creativity and logic by teaching many different arts, sciences and even philosophy. Rather then limiting the students to a rigid system where the teachers are said to have the ultimate truth, the teachers are instead a facilitator of education. They help students find the truth by themselves by encouraging debates and rewarding creative solutions to diverse problems.

Class sizes are always small and the general atmosphere is good. Spirituality is neither denied nor encouraged.

Does that happen!?!!? :eek:


I used to think there's more to it. I used to think that researching would be exciting. But to be honest with you, everything, EVERYTHING in our society is based on the past. Even the legal system is based on the past. That's one of the reasons the world is a mess. We just keep basing everything in the past. The system is extremely outdated.

Even Keynesian economics is based on past. Which is why it is falling apart. But of course there are people that try to create new systems. And they often fail. But it's their work that can save this planet...


You need to learn the knowledge of the past in order to develop new knowledge. Are you seriously trying to say that universities are dedicated to keeping the world how it is? Obviously that isn't happening. There have been revolutions in both medicine and technology. Look at cancer treatment...look at surgery....look at your computer! Are you kidding?

You need to learn the knowledge of the past in order to develop new knowledge.
Well, you need to learn the basis. But universities pretty much stop there. :eek:

Are you seriously trying to say that universities are dedicated to keeping the world how it is? Obviously that isn't happening. There have been revolutions in both medicine and technology. Look at cancer treatment...look at surgery....look at your computer! Are you kidding?
You mean, people with phds....? :rolleyes:

Well, you need to learn the basis. But universities pretty much stop there. :eek:


You are just taking classes. You are learning the past right now. You have no clue what is going one beyond classes. Maybe one day you can actually do your own research and contribute to the new.

'You are the sound of one lip kissing.'

You are just taking classes. You are learning the past right now.
The past offers nothing but mistakes...

You have no clue what is going one beyond classes.
How do you know that? That's a pretty dangerous assumption...

Maybe one day you can actually do your own research and contribute to the new.
Which I have done, actually...
But I did it on my own...


But really, what's the point of going to philosophy class if you will just repeat what other people have said. A philosopher creates philosophy on his own.

The educational system punishes those who are creative enough to design new improved ways of livelihood...

A long time ago I wrote the following at sciforums. I think this fits perfectly in this discussion...

"This is not about being right or wrong, wes, it is about having a decent educational system, that encourages people to challenge accepted ideas, refuting them and arguing against them. In order to argue against something, you need to know that something very well, otherwise you can't possibly make a good argument against it. That's why philoophy should be a primary subject even in high school!

Not only that, but education should be a right for everyone. The price for education in Canada is absurd. The price in the US is even worse. Without proper education you can't even make the right choices in life! Without education, you don't have a real choice - you have to accept whatever you get. Your country was supposed to be rooted in freedom and free-speech. But how can people be free and express themselves if they don't have the proper education? It is extremely hipocritical for your government to always afirm freedom, while letting young adults either getting huge loans and pay for them throughout their entire lifes, or not get education at all! Education should be a right, not a privilege of the rich people. That's why there's so much inequalities in this planet.

Another thing that should be taken into account is the subjects that are taught. About 99% of people that are in jail are neglected children. If they had proper parenting, our jail would be practically empty. It is a well-known fact that the early stages of life has an extreme implication on a person's future. This is the first thing that we learn in psychology. Do we have classes teaching parenting for people? Nooooooo. Is this dumb? Extremely. People should be required to learn how to be parents. In fact, children should be taught virtues at school, and not just calculations and things that they will probably never ue in life (ex: chemistry). And that is exactly the core of my idea of anarchism. If children were raised properly and taught the right things at school, they would alway pursue excellence and they will never break the law. Those are the fundamentals of an efficient educational system. And educational system that teaches people what is humanity, what we should be as an species. We need to evolve now, or we might as well destroy ourselves!"

How do you know that? That's a pretty dangerous assumption...

because of what you say. So naive.

You have done original research? Give us a summary then.



But really, what's the point of going to philosophy class if you will just repeat what other people have said. A philosopher creates philosophy on his own.

Most people in the past were smarter than you are now. Maybe it is good for you to try to understand where they came from and what they were saying. It seems to me you are just whining because you are disappointed in your own capabilties and that of your local educational system.


The educational system punishes those who are creative enough to design new improved ways of livelihood...

You are getting an education. You are not living life. You probably have been a lazy ass, or you were too stupid to understand the nature of the educational system and have received low or average grades. That is now conflicting with your enormous ego. You think you are original and the best and your grades say you are average.

I'm right am I not?

A long time ago I wrote the following at sciforums. I think this fits perfectly in this discussion...

"This is not about being right or wrong, wes, it is about having a decent educational system, that encourages people to challenge accepted ideas, refuting them and arguing against them. In order to argue against something, you need to know that something very well, otherwise you can't possibly make a good argument against it. That's why philoophy should be a primary subject even in high school!

Not only that, but education should be a right for everyone. The price for education in Canada is absurd. The price in the US is even worse. Without proper education you can't even make the right choices in life! Without education, you don't have a real choice - you have to accept whatever you get. Your country was supposed to be rooted in freedom and free-speech. But how can people be free and express themselves if they don't have the proper education? It is extremely hipocritical for your government to always afirm freedom, while letting young adults either getting huge loans and pay for them throughout their entire lifes, or not get education at all! Education should be a right, not a privilege of the rich people. That's why there's so much inequalities in this planet.

Another thing that should be taken into account is the subjects that are taught. About 99% of people that are in jail are neglected children. If they had proper parenting, our jail would be practically empty. It is a well-known fact that the early stages of life has an extreme implication on a person's future. This is the first thing that we learn in psychology. Do we have classes teaching parenting for people? Nooooooo. Is this dumb? Extremely. People should be required to learn how to be parents. In fact, children should be taught virtues at school, and not just calculations and things that they will probably never ue in life (ex: chemistry). And that is exactly the core of my idea of anarchism. If children were raised properly and taught the right things at school, they would alway pursue excellence and they will never break the law. Those are the fundamentals of an efficient educational system. And educational system that teaches people what is humanity, what we should be as an species. We need to evolve now, or we might as well destroy ourselves!"

Next time be more careful with which country you pick to live in.

I used to think there's more to it. I used to think that researching would be exciting. But to be honest with you, everything, EVERYTHING in our society is based on the past. Even the legal system is based on the past. That's one of the reasons the world is a mess. We just keep basing everything in the past. The system is extremely outdated.

Yeah, let's look to the future for data to address present problems. Oh wait, it hasn't happened yet.

Thanks for putting the Seeker in his space, spurious. His ego is enormous, isn't it? I find his hubris exhilirating, his ignorance and general idiocy thrilling. He has this special quality, this je ne sais quois. His assumed intelligence juxtaposed with him demonstrating the contrary at every opportunity, perhaps? And he bears the sign of the truly mislead– duendy.

because of what you say. So naive.
You are the naive one here...

You have done original research? Give us a summary then.
I give you a one year old sample...
(attached...)

Most people in the past were smarter than you are now.
Some maybe. And that's why they contributed. For example Michael Dell is smarter then me. That's why he dropped out. :rolleyes:

Maybe it is good for you to try to understand where they came from and what they were saying.
Oh, and I do understand. Don't get me wrong, I have studied the past. But universities are obcessed woth the past, and any deviation from the past must be punished!

It seems to me you are just whining because you are disappointed in your own capabilties and that of your local educational system.
I'm disppointed with the educational system as a whole. It takes me 4 years to learn something I could learn in 1 year, because there's so much irrelevant garbage attached to the curriculum!!

You are getting an education. You are not living life.
Nice...

You probably have been a lazy ass, or you were too stupid to understand the nature of the educational system and have received low or average grades.
My average is a B+.... :rolleyes:
And I get As in most technological related courses...

That is now conflicting with your enormous ego. You think you are original and the best and your grades say you are average.
My grades say I'm extremely bored with the system. It's very clear that this system was designed for the average Joe, who is to scared to get up their asses and do their own thing, start their own corporations and live up to their dreams... :bugeye:

I'm right am I not?
Most definetely not.


EDIT: Couldn't upload file...
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Next time be more careful with which country you pick to live in.
Canada is still way better then the US. :rolleyes:

We study the past, because we sure as hell can't study the future. --> We can study ideas about the future....but that have all been formulated in the past. It's obvious we study the past, but its even more obvious that we are developing and moving foward. Do you deny the improvments in medicine and technology. That's proof just staring you in the face.

Yeah, let's look to the future for data to address present problems. Oh wait, it hasn't happened yet.
Who said to look at the future data? :rolleyes:

Btw, how about replying to my post about a decent educational system? :rolleyes:

Thanks for putting the Seeker in his space, spurious. His ego is enormous, isn't it?
Heh... maybe my ego is enourmous, but at least I'm not being a retard who cannot have a logical discussion about the educational system... :rolleyes:

I find his hubris exhilirating, his ignorance and general idiocy thrilling.
And where exactly is that "ignorance"? (run out of rolleyes...)

He has this special quality, this je ne sais quois. His assumed intelligence juxtaposed with him demonstrating the contrary at every opportunity, perhaps?
You have yet to present a reasonable argument against my proposition about the limitations and shortcomings of our educational system.

And he bears the sign of the truly mislead– duendy.
Which is...?

We study the past, because we sure as hell can't study the future. --> We can study ideas about the future....but that have all been formulated in the past. It's obvious we study the past, but its even more obvious that we are developing and moving foward. Do you deny the improvments in medicine and technology. That's proof just staring you in the face.
I don't deny that we should study the past. What I'm saying is that the educational system is so obcessed with the past that it becomes stagnated in the past and is unable to come up with innovations in any timely manner.

What I'm saying is that the educational system is so obcessed with the past that it becomes stagnated in the past and is unable to come up with innovations in any timely manner.

Maybe your Canadian university. Or maybe you're just stuck attending a shitty school.

Bummer, brah.

Yeah, let's look to the future for data to address present problems. Oh wait, it hasn't happened yet.

Thanks for putting the Seeker in his space, spurious. His ego is enormous, isn't it? I find his hubris exhilirating, his ignorance and general idiocy thrilling. He has this special quality, this je ne sais quois. His assumed intelligence juxtaposed with him demonstrating the contrary at every opportunity, perhaps? And he bears the sign of the truly mislead– duendy.
all i have ever heard of ou, read of yo here mr roman is bad mouthin, ad homing. you some kind of example of the erreducation you is on te side of?
yeah edufukincation ey. lookin at the past? cause it fukin do. 500 mean destructive years of mechanized indoctrination is 'the past'

IF anything, our children HAVEto not be 'us'. but learn about Ecology, sustainable living ie., www.ecoliteracy. com www.ecoliteracy.org
relating to Nature

Maybe your Canadian university. Or maybe you're just stuck attending a shitty school.

Bummer, brah.
No.The same is true to the entire world educational system. It's influenced by capitalism. Even in Brasil I had the same problem...

Only now some psychologists are starting to discover...

IF anything, our children HAVEto not be 'us'. but learn about Ecology, sustainable living ie., www.ecoliteracy. com www.ecoliteracy.org
relating to Nature
Yes. I'm an extremely strong advocate for that, myself...

I got thsi from another thread and it's very relevant to this discussion as well...

What is your definition of 'parroting' ? Parroting tolerance for others? Parroting against hate speech? Or parroting hate speech itself?
Most people parrot the positions of their news sources, as they are incapable of independent thinking. Since the news media exists to provide entertainment that sells commercial time, most news sources avoid presenting any idea that could offend a part of their audience base. That is why news is so fluffy, castrated, and superficial.

Most people parrot positions that have no content. This parroting misses the facts of a situation because those are glossed over or deliberately misrepresented by media to avoid presenting any unpleasant truths.

And how would you suppose, if everyone were to adopt your ideas one-for-one, that it wouldn't be considered 'parroting' as well? I'm sure you wouldn't want that.

No.

Free-thinking was fairly common before the widespread addiction to media consumption arose. When people can think for themselves they can use their reasoning facilities to make their own interpretations instead of repeating what an authority has told them to represent.

Such free-thinking would be good for society.
Just like with the media, people depend on the educational system to tell them what to think and how to think. They never question what is taught and how is taught. There's no free-thinking.

I assume you all agree with me...

My grades say I'm extremely bored with the system. It's very clear that this system was designed for the average Joe, who is to scared to get up their asses and do their own thing, start their own corporations and live up to their dreams... :bugeye:


What are you moaning about then. Start your own company. Or are you too scared. Must be easy for a B+ genius like you who can think of the new thing without trouble and is not afraid to not learn the old stuff.

My ass you did research. What you did was probably an assignment given by some old fart you despise for doing only the old stuff in class.

No, we do not all agree.

I got thsi from another thread and it's very relevant to this discussion as well...

Just like with the media, people depend on the educational system to tell them what to think and how to think. They never question what is taught and how is taught. There's no free-thinking.

You found out after 21 years that education is there to prevent people from 'freethinking'. What have you been doing in the meanwhile? Sit behind your desk and bring the teacher an apple every wednesday so he would pet your shiny hair and listen to his propaganda uncritically.

And suddenly Eureka! Your brain said pop! 'The system is aimed at preventing me from 'freethinking'.'I don't want to be a sheep anymore.'

Any idea how ridiculous you sound? Get your ass into gear you lazy bum. The system is not at fault here. You are. You have never been a freethinker and now you want to be one. Because the greyness of reality is biting your ass. You are a prime example of a sheep. Have you ever done anything remotely 'freethinkerish' in your life?

You went to a local grey college to study some 'business' degree.

You married the first girl you came accros that would let you in her panties.

When I was your age I was in a fucking good Art school for fucks sake. What do you think? Where would you learn to think critically and free better? In an average business school or in art school where they would rip your fucking soul out and stuff it back in after disecting it. Where you have to be yourself and no one else. Where you cannot hide.

But you choose business. Because the greatest freethinkers go to business school.

What are you moaning about then. Start your own company.
That's against the law...

Must be easy for a B+ genius like you who can think of the new thing without trouble and is not afraid to not learn the old stuff.
True...

My ass you did research. What you did was probably an assignment given by some old fart you despise for doing only the old stuff in class.
You can't write a business plan without a lot of research.
I did a primary research of the school population in order to determine the best marketing startegies for a Student Union Building. So what?

You found out after 21 years that education is there to prevent people from 'freethinking'.
I've been talking about this since I came to sciforums.
Hence why I had that old quote posted again... :rolleyes:

What have you been doing in the meanwhile? Sit behind your desk and bring the teacher an apple every wednesday so he would pet your shiny hair and listen to his propaganda uncritically.
Certainly not...

And suddenly Eureka! Your brain said pop! 'The system is aimed at preventing me from 'freethinking'.'I don't want to be a sheep anymore.'
I've been frustrated about this throughout my whole life. And I talked about it many times. So wtf are you talkling about?

Any idea how ridiculous you sound?
You are the only one who is sounding ridiculous right now...

Get your ass into gear you lazy bum. The system is not at fault here. You are.
Oh yes. It's easier to blaim on the rebel... :rolleyes:

You have never been a freethinker and now you want to be one.
Oh really? So what happend to my other 8,000+ posts? :rolleyes:

Because the greyness of reality is biting your ass. You are a prime example of a sheep. Have you ever done anything remotely 'freethinkerish' in your life?
Protests, organizations, projects... (ran out of rolleyes...)

You went to a local grey college to study some 'business' degree.
You mean a college 12,000 kilometers away from home?

You married the first girl you came accros that would let you in her panties.
She was not my first girlfriend...

When I was your age I was in a fucking good Art school for fucks sake.
Oh really? And how do you manage to survive?

What do you think? Where would you learn to think critically and free better? In an average business school or in art school where they would rip your fucking soul out and stuff it back in after disecting it. Where you have to be yourself and no one else. Where you cannot hide.
An art degree won't give me nearly enough money to take care of my family...

But you choose business. Because the greatest freethinkers go to business school.
I chose business because there are no freethinkers there.
And for a matter of fact, we SHOULD have freethinkers there...

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You all believe that your own perspectives are true but you are all trying to bite your own tails! It's sooooo amusing and yet so sad to see so many people trying to explain their own perceptions of the world!!!!!

You barely realize that your perceptions are limited to yourselves and that you cannot communicate those perceptions without redefining words and mixing up meanings! It's all pointless! Life is not to be understood, it is to be lived! And you are all insane because you actually believe your own udnerstanding of the world as something true!!! :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :D
*falls out of chair laughing histerically*


Oh,...ok then. :)

I got thsi from another thread and it's very relevant to this discussion as well...

Just like with the media, people depend on the educational system to tell them what to think and how to think. They never question what is taught and how is taught. There's no free-thinking.
pre-'media', it was/is patriarchal myth of course which tells them what to think. so you can see this 'game' going on. an elte pulls peoples strings through te written word etc

so it is URGENTLY needed now to see through all of this!

I chose business because there are no freethinkers there.
And for a matter of fact, we SHOULD have freethinkers there...

well, you aren't.

I don't deny that we should study the past. What I'm saying is that the educational system is so obcessed with the past that it becomes stagnated in the past and is unable to come up with innovations in any timely manner.

Let me just understand what you are trying to say....Do you mean that professors and universities do need to study the past, but they get so preoccupied studying the past that they are not as effecient in improving the future?

I agree that in some cases this may be true, but you seem to be presenting it as though there is some huge conspiracy among memers of the education system. Yes, if you are a professor of philosophy you are most likely going to spend most of your time researching the past. However, if you are say..a theoretical physicist, you will, in your infancy, study the past and then after that you will begin researching and collaborating with others.

well, you aren't.
I'm not what?

Let me just understand what you are trying to say....Do you mean that professors and universities do need to study the past, but they get so preoccupied studying the past that they are not as effecient in improving the future?
Precisely

I agree that in some cases this may be true, but you seem to be presenting it as though there is some huge conspiracy among memers of the education system.
Hehe... :D

I'm not what?

Exactly.

Exactly.
That makes no sense here. What am I not? :rolleyes:

You are not, what you aren't, and you are, that which you are, these are very deep concepts and ideas

That makes no sense here. What am I not?

You are not capable of making simple grammatical connections. B+ indeed.

This is a post from another forums I frequent:

In the US in 1958 congress voted to replace liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose. This was suppose to last only 4 years, but obviously we never returned to liberal education. I think it was around 1960 when we began teaching teachers to be completely impersonal, and to treat every child the same. This was suppose to prevent favoritism and discrimination. Actually, this is the equality of military service, where human beings are extensions of weapons. This is good for the military but not for human beings with families and living communities where personal motivations direct their lives.

Our personal motivation was once the people we care about. Today it is money and what money can buy. This social change brought about by the change in public education has serious negative consequences.

This change in education comes from Germany, and is directly related to Bush's New World Order, as it was what brought Hitler to the New World Order. You see, these men are just on stage, but behind the curtians is a whole production crew, determining what will happen and how this goal will be achieved. Public education is like a genii in a bottle.

The defined purpose is the wish, and the students are the genii. It was, in the US, to have good citizens and liberty, avoiding authority over the people. However, as early 1917 military people wanted our schools to imitate Germany because Germany was a proven military power. But at this time, national defense depended on patriotic citizens who were willing to defend our democracy, so we retained the education for citizenship. Not until the military technology of WWII, and precisely the ability to fly over seas and drop nucler bombs, did education for technology become more important than education for citizenship. This is why changed the wish for the genii.

I would love to raise public awareness of this, and through mass awareness, return public education to liberal education. There is a chance many students would appreciate the change. For sure I desire the social change. The social ramifications of the change in public education have been very bad.

You are not capable of making simple grammatical connections. B+ indeed.
No- that was a non sequitur.

No- that was a non sequitur.

You are completely right Dear Truthseeker, indeed it was non sequitur if you are talking to a complete moron.

And how do you suddenly know what I am referring to? Let me guess. You knew all along and you are just trying hard to be the ass you are?

You are completely right Dear Truthseeker, indeed it was non sequitur if you are talking to a complete moron.
No, monkey, you are not a moron... :p

And how do you suddenly know what I am referring to? Let me guess. You knew all along and you are just trying hard to be the ass you are?
Yes, I try very hard, but I always succeed... :p



No, seriously, I have no idea what you are referring to... :eek:

In your absence I find other forms of amusement.

Why don't you "freethink" of something then, to figure out what he meant.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You all believe that your own perspectives are true but you are all trying to bite your own tails! It's sooooo amusing and yet so sad to see so many people trying to explain their own perceptions of the world!!!!!

You barely realize that your perceptions are limited to yourselves and that you cannot communicate those perceptions without redefining words and mixing up meanings! It's all pointless! Life is not to be understood, it is to be lived! And you are all insane because you actually believe your own udnerstanding of the world as something true!!!

I suppose then, that if you and I were to sit down and have a look around us, we'd have completely different perceptions?

Could we not agree that a rock is a rock, or a flower emits a pleasant odor, or the Sun shines or any one of many things we could agree upon?

So, how is it sane that you perceive anything beyond that which we agree?

Why don't you "freethink" of something then, to figure out what he meant.
That's not what freethinking mean...

I suppose then, that if you and I were to sit down and have a look around us, we'd have completely different perceptions?

Could we not agree that a rock is a rock, or a flower emits a pleasant odor, or the Sun shines or any one of many things we could agree upon?

So, how is it sane that you perceive anything beyond that which we agree?
Huum, yes, but we perceive them in our own way. We have a different perspective about things. We can "agree" on some ways, but how do you know we are perceiving it exactly the same way?

For instance, we perceive a dog in different ways according to our experience with dogs. If you had a dog who you loved very much in your childhood, you will have an overall good feeling about dogs. But then, if I were severely bitten by a dog and even had to go to the hospital, the further perception of a dog will therefore have a negative impact in my psyche.

My point is that we are always limited to our bodies, with our own limitations. I'm incapable of perceiveing with your senses or hearing your mind, and my perceptions are also influenced by a host of factors. So how do I know that we do indeed agree?

Many times I thought I agreed with someone and upon closer inspection I found out that we didn't agree at all. For example I would often agree with a christian, and then would later disagree after further inspection. Which is why my perspective on chirstianism changes over time.

I even had to work on a technique in order to perceive more accurately.

Thanks for participating in a relevant way, (Q). :)
I look forward to your objections. :)

Examples:
a rock is a rock,
A christian often associates a rock with Jesus (I never did myself, though)

or a flower emits a pleasant odor,
We may not agree on the pleasantness of the odor

or the Sun shines
We may not agree on whether that is pleasant or not. I may also be more sensible to light, for example.

deleted by request of author
Thank you very much for your personal experiences :)
Have you read the link duendy posted about Waldorf schools?

EDIT: Oh and may I ask you... what is "Afrikaans"? :)

Huum, yes, but we perceive them in our own way. We have a different perspective about things. We can "agree" on some ways, but how do you know we are perceiving it exactly the same way?

If our senses were functioning normally, we would agree.

For instance, we perceive a dog in different ways according to our experience with dogs. If you had a dog who you loved very much in your childhood, you will have an overall good feeling about dogs. But then, if I were severely bitten by a dog and even had to go to the hospital, the further perception of a dog will therefore have a negative impact in my psyche.

But we would both agree a dog could be black or brown, wagging his tail or not, chewing on my sneakers, etc.

My point is that we are always limited to our bodies, with our own limitations. I'm incapable of perceiveing with your senses or hearing your mind, and my perceptions are also influenced by a host of factors. So how do I know that we do indeed agree?

Of course we are limited to our bodies and our senses, I've been telling you that since you came here. We agree if our senses are functioning normally, its really that simple. You would be hard pressed to disagree. If you do, go out with your wife and try it yourselves.

What "host of factors" do you refer?

Many times I thought I agreed with someone and upon closer inspection I found out that we didn't agree at all. For example I would often agree with a christian, and then would later disagree after further inspection. Which is why my perspective on chirstianism changes over time.

We're not talking about imaginary concepts, we're talking about the real world. No theists here have yet to agree on their religions, that will never stop happening until a god does reveal himself to us all.

Examples:

A christian often associates a rock with Jesus (I never did myself, though)

Christians associate everything to Jesus.


We may not agree on the pleasantness of the odor

Perhaps, but we agree an odor exists.

We may not agree on whether that is pleasant or not. I may also be more sensible to light, for example.

But we agree the Sun shines.

If our senses were functioning normally, we would agree.
If I look at a mountain and I see a steep hill, I may say "this mountain is easy to climb". But if you are on the other side and you see a huge cliff from top to bottom, you may say "this mountain is very hard to climb". It's all a matter of perspective. Unless you can see the big picture, you are tricked by your limited perspective.

But we would both agree a dog could be black or brown, wagging his tail or not, chewing on my sneakers, etc.
Yes, most likely...

Of course we are limited to our bodies and our senses, I've been telling you that since you came here.
Well, that's no news to me...

We agree if our senses are functioning normally, its really that simple. You would be hard pressed to disagree. If you do, go out with your wife and try it yourselves.
What are you suggesting...? :D

What "host of factors" do you refer?
All internal and external factors which may influence perception...

We're not talking about imaginary concepts, we're talking about the real world. No theists here have yet to agree on their religions, that will never stop happening until a god does reveal himself to us all.
There are imaginary concepts which are not religious...
And there are also abstract concepts which fall in the same category in this situation...

[some comments removed at request of author]
In general I think a school is as good as its teachers (and perhaps to a lesser extent, students) but I suppose the philosphy could affect the kind of people attracted into teaching there...

Speaking of alternative schools, have you heard of Montessori?
Yes, I did. My wife and I are thinking of taking Pearson to one of those...
How are they? Have you been in one of them? :)

A local language - related to Dutch. Very simple. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans#Comparison_with_Dutch.2C_German_and_Engl ish)
Huumm... ok :)

Christians associate everything to Jesus.

Perhaps, but we agree an odor exists.

But we agree the Sun shines.

Doesn't how much we can agree upon reflect directly how well we can relate to one another?

Does the sun shine to a rock?

Does the sun shine to a snail? Lemur? Giraffe? Tree?

They know no concept of sun.

So is the sun shining for the snail? Is that what the truth is? Just curious and arguing the point for sport.

Nope ... sorry ... don't know much except they're also 'alternative' :p
Ok then :p

Doesn't how much we can agree upon reflect directly how well we can relate to one another?

Does the sun shine to a rock?

Does the sun shine to a snail? Lemur? Giraffe? Tree?

They know no concept of sun.

So is the sun shining for the snail? Is that what the truth is?
Very Taoist... :p

Just curious and arguing the point for sport.
Who isn't? ;)

If I look at a mountain and I see a steep hill, I may say "this mountain is easy to climb". But if you are on the other side and you see a huge cliff from top to bottom, you may say "this mountain is very hard to climb". It's all a matter of perspective. Unless you can see the big picture, you are tricked by your limited perspective.

Sorry, that does not follow, we are looking at two different things.

Well, that's no news to me...

That might be a result of your lack of cognitive skills.

What are you suggesting...?

Do I have to repeat myself again?

All internal and external factors which may influence perception...

Could you be more vague? What factors, exactly?

There are imaginary concepts which are not religious...
And there are also abstract concepts which fall in the same category in this situation...

Yes, there are a number of imaginary concepts that are not religious, but religious concepts are indistinguishable from the imagined. That is why theists cannot agree with one another.

However, the real world around us is tangible and can be agreed upon by those able to do so. For example, the tired argument of a blind man not being able to distinguish colors does not support religious concepts.

Doesn't how much we can agree upon reflect directly how well we can relate to one another?

Explain further please?

Does the sun shine to a rock?

Does the sun shine to a snail? Lemur? Giraffe? Tree?

They know no concept of sun.

They may not know of the concept, but the sun shines, nonetheless.

So is the sun shining for the snail? Is that what the truth is? Just curious and arguing the point for sport.

It must, why else would they avoid it during the daytime hiding in cool, damp places?

But, for a moment, lets look at a snail. Can we agree what will happen to the snail if we pour salt on it? Can we agree that all snails will follow the same results? Will any one snail resist the result of salt?

What we can agree upon is completely dependent upon our willingness or capacity to agree. In terms of the questions you're asking, it simply doesn't matter if we agree or not.

To play devils advocate, we could run round example after example for eternity, while what we refer to as the sun, or the snail don't give a crap about the state of our relation.

Sorry, that does not follow, we are looking at two different things.
No. We are looking at the same mountain. Do you deny we are looking at the same mountain but from two different view points?

That might be a result of your lack of cognitive skills.
That makes no sense. How does that follow?
Of course we are limited to our bodies and our senses, I've been telling you that since you came here.
Well, that's no news to me...
That might be a result of your lack of cognitive skills.


Do I have to repeat myself again?
No. I asked what would you suggest for me and my wife...:D

Could you be more vague? What factors, exactly?
Well, think about it! I'm not going to just tell you like that! :D


Yes, there are a number of imaginary concepts that are not religious, but religious concepts are indistinguishable from the imagined. That is why theists cannot agree with one another.

However, the real world around us is tangible and can be agreed upon by those able to do so. For example, the tired argument of a blind man not being able to distinguish colors does not support religious concepts.[/QUOTE]
We are all blind. That's what this thread is about.
And it looks like wes got the concept very well....

Doesn't how much we can agree upon reflect directly how well we can relate to one another?
Precisely. That's because understanding depends on internal circumstances as well. Just like my example of the dog...
For instance, we perceive a dog in different ways according to our experience with dogs. If you had a dog who you loved very much in your childhood, you will have an overall good feeling about dogs. But then, if I were severely bitten by a dog and even had to go to the hospital, the further perception of a dog will therefore have a negative impact in my psyche.

No. We are looking at the same mountain. Do you deny we are looking at the same mountain but from two different view points?

If one side is plainly different than the other, then we are looking at two different things.

If we both look at a dog, can we agree the head and tail are two different things?

Well, think about it! I'm not going to just tell you like that!

I see, you wish for me to read your mind?

If one side is plainly different than the other, then we are looking at two different things.
No, it is still the same thing.

If we both look at a dog, can we agree the head and tail are two different things?
No. Two different parts of the same thing.

I see, you wish for me to read your mind?
No I wish you to think for yourself so that you can understand better what I'm saying. This is how I converse. I ask questions and lead the other person towards my point of view.

No, it is still the same thing.

As is the dogs head an tail?

When one approaches the Island of Santorini by sea, they will view one side of the island as a steep, treacherous cliff with a path that zig-zags back and forth up the cliff, usually traveled by way of donkey. The other side however, is a slow incline with lush green fields down to a black pebbled beach.

Are you saying these two views are one and the same?

No. Two different parts of the same thing.

Yes, exactly, as is the mountain.

No I wish you to think for yourself so that you can understand better what I'm saying. This is how I converse. I ask questions and lead the other person towards my point of view.

You aren't saying anything, hence nothing to understand or converse.

Internal and external factors can be comprised of anything and everything. It is vagueness complete.

Precisely. That's because understanding depends on internal circumstances as well. Just like my example of the dog...

*sigh*

The only flaw I see in Q's argument is that he seems to insist we agree.

In order for things to be as they are, there is no requirement that we agree.

Things will still be as they are.

It is however, nice that we can sometimes agree on things.

I do agree for instance, that the sun is shining on the rock. It matters not to me that the rock doesn't agree.

Between humans however, it is imperative to our continued survival that we have something upon which we can agree, or we have no reason to respect each other's right to exist.

The truths are:

1. Every participant of sciforums has problems socializing in the real world.

2. If half of the participants of sciforums had sex often, aggregate posts would be cut in half.

3. My pee pee is bigger than yours.

*sigh*

The only flaw I see in Q's argument is that he seems to insist we agree.

Between humans however, it is imperative to our continued survival that we have something upon which we can agree, or we have no reason to respect each other's right to exist.

Perhaps not insist, but assume. And I am assuming that we both see reality, the something upon which we can agree. We both share reality therefore we must respect each others right to exist within it.

Aside from the real and the tangible, I'm stumped as far as anything else we might agree upon.

Perhaps that lack of vision on my part as to what other something we might agree upon could be my downfall in that regard.

The truths are:

1. Every participant of sciforums has problems socializing in the real world.

2. If half of the participants of sciforums had sex often, aggregate posts would be cut in half.

3. My pee pee is bigger than yours.

1. Agreed, I have a difficult time socializing with people who constantly talk about their gods.

2. Isn't that more a matter of time management?

3.Agreed, when standing straight, mine is only two inches... from the ground.

Perhaps not insist, but assume. And I am assuming that we both see reality, the something upon which we can agree. We both share reality therefore we must respect each others right to exist within it.

That you and I might assume it does not provide either the capacity or inclination for others to follow suit.

Aside from the real and the tangible, I'm stumped as far as anything else we might agree upon.

LOL. Yes... well. You're just not connecting the dots... for instance, many people agree on jesus. Many people agree on history. Many people agree on art. Many people disagree as to what comprises "real and tangible", though I think you and I would likely mostly agree on the subject.

Perhaps that lack of vision on my part as to what other something we might agree upon could be my