Yeshua ben Joseph, whom you call Jesus of Nazareth, is a great god, just as you are a great god. But he is not only son of God; he is a son of God. He was a man who became God, just as you will become God.

What did Yeshua teach? That he is the son of God-and indeed he is. But he also openly proclaimed that everyone is also a son of God. He taught nothing other than that. Everyone is God expressing his perfection as man. And what good would it be for the Father to have so many children who are imbeciles and only one who is perfect? It would not be a very good reflection on the Father's seed.

Yeshua is your brother, not your savior. He was a man who had God within in-just as you have God within you.

Now, I wish you to understand this: Yeshua lived on this plane at a time when man did not love man, when man was in bondage to man and love was not held in high regard. But Yeshua exemplified love- for everyone! It was the same love that would foster his being hailed "savior of the world," for he brought love to this plane where very few expressed it, and he gave it openly to everyone. He also brought the teaching that the Father is not a God of judgment and retribution, but an all-loving God of mercy, grace, and compassion. Unfortunately, that understanding has been greatly altered throughtout history, and throught the writings of those who very much failed to understand the simple teaching of this immaculate soul.

Yeshua loved. That was his great magnificent gift to mankind. And he openly proclaimed that the source of that love was the Father that lived within him-the same Father that lived within all people. What gave Yeshua the freedom and power to embrace all humanity was that he knew that the Father and he were one and the same. He peeled away all the illusions that caused him to live an hypocrisy; and by doing so, he expressed completely the father who lived within him. In that, Yeshua became a christ: man expressing wholly as God; God expressing completely in man. That is what the term christ means: God-man; man-God. A christ is anyone who realizes that he is God and then lives that truth.

The only difference between Yeshua and you, is Yeshua understood the principle of God within man, and then he lived that principle completely. For that, he is indeed a grand entity. But you are also a grand entity who possesses the same nobleness and the same love to become what he became.

Yeshua is not responsible for saving you or anyone else. Through the realization that he was God living on earth, he became the savior of himself, who then taught others how to be their own salvation through the God within themselves. He taught everyone, "What I have done, all may do, for the Father and you are one. Your kingdom is not of this place. The kingdom of heaven is within you." And he spoke not of hell. He spoke of life and its beauty.

I don't know where you got your ideas from, maybe you could share your sources.

I believe the best evidence of who Jesus was can be found in the Bible, since that is where our knowledge of him begins.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

If we follow this chapter through, we can see that the Word is Jesus. I agree that we are all sons and daughters of God, but not even close to the same sense as Jesus. Jesus is part of the Godhead- Elohim (Genesis 1:1). This word is plural yet singular, one whole deity consisting of three, Jesus being one of them. As for the statement "Everyone is God expressing his nature as man", what Bible are you reading? The Bible says we were created "a little lower than the angels. To claim that we are God is a dangerous thing and leads not to the fullness of love but to the heights of self agrandization.

That's the way I understand it anyway. :)

Well hello Satan!

Uh, not. Man will never become God. God speaks to you but you will never become Him. And there will never be a man alive from now until the end that is spoken of in Revelations that will remain sinless his life as Christ did. Jesus was a God-man. The product of God, our Father, and a human woman. There is no other like Him, nor will there be. There will be though, spawn of demons, hybrid with humans...many...it's spoken of often enough in the Bible. They do this to teach of a spiritual heirarchy that does not exist. One that replaces the truth. One that teaches that, yes you too can become God. What a crock of shit. Everyone of us has the propensity to strive toward being Christ-like, BUT ONLY IN KNOWING HIM CAN YOU EVER STRIVE TO ACHIEVE THIS. And even then, you will not achieve this. Let me guess, just a genetic tweak here and there, and we'll all be good to go to the next spiritual plane right? Give me a cosmic break!

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 01, 2000).]

God loves you with greater love than you have ever fathomed, for it is the life that you are, the ground that you walk on, the air that you breathe.


MY BELOVED BROTHERS, MANY OF YOU have been taught for ages that the essence called God is a somber, fearsome, angry, judgmental character. But God is none of these things. The God who harangues, who judges, who persecutes, has never existed except in the hearts and minds of men. It is man who created a god that judges some and exalts others. That is the god of man, the creation of man and his will.

The God that I know, that I love, this is the power that issues forth from me and the kingdom that I am, is a God of complete and unjudgmental love. It is nothing else, but everything else. God loves you with greater love than you have ever fathomed, for it is the life that you are, the ground that you walk on, the air that you breathe. It is the color of your skin, the magnificence of your eyes, the gentleness of you touch. It is you in every moment that you are, in every thought that you think, in every deed that you do, ever in the shadows of your soul.

God is an all-consuming force that is everything. It is the wind upon the water, the changing of leaves, the simplicity of a rose, deep in its color and hue. God is lovers in their embrace, children in their laughter, and the sheen of honey colored hair. It is the sun rising in the morning, a star twinkling in the night, the moon waxing and waning across the midnight sky. God is the beauteous insect, the humble bird in flight, the vile and ugly worm. God is movement and color, sound and light. God is passion. God is love. God is joy. God is sadness. That which is, all that is, is what you term God the Father, the totality of life and the lover of all that it is.

God is not a singular character who sits upon a throne and judges the whole of life. God is the whole of life-every pulsating moment. It is the ongoingness and foreverness of everything that is.

Do you think that you have been judged by life? Not at all. For if God, which is what you are, were to judge you, it would certainly be judging itself! And why would the Supreme Intelligence do that?
The life-force that you term the Father does not even have the ability to judge you, or any other thing. For life does not possess a personality with an ego that can divide itself into facets of good and evil, right and wrong, perfect and imperfect. If God possessed an ego, it would also possess the ability to perceive alterdness within itself. And if God could contemplate alteredness within its being, even for one moment, then the life that God is would cease in the next moment-and it would never be again!

God, or itself, is wholly without goodness or evil. It is wholly without positive or negative. God is not perfect, for perfection is a limitation to ongoing, ever changing, exuberant life. God simply is. The only thing your beloved Father knows how to do is to be, so that everything-which is him-can express the life that it is.

God is unlimited, supreme being-ness, an undivided totality of is-ness. And that isness loves you so grandly that is has allowed you to create the illusions of perfection and imperfection, good and evil, positive and negative. And throught your perception it has become what you have perceived. Thus God, being the totality of all that is, is the wrong as well as the right; it is the ugliness as well as the beauty; it is the vileness as well as the divinity.

The Father has never judged you, inthis or any moment you have ever lived. He has been you and the platform of life upon which you have expressed your own divine, purposeful self. He has given you thw uniqueness of your own ego and the freedom of will to become whatever you wish to become, to perceive the life that he is however you choose to perceive it. And nothing you have ever done, nothing you have ever thought, no matter how vile or wretched or wonderful it has been, has ever been seen by God as anything other than being.

This God that I know loves you with greater, more profound love than you have ever conceived of, for it has allowed you to create your life however you have desired. The Father has always loved you. He knows of no other way to perceive you, for that which you are is him.

The Father sees no wrong; he sees only himself. The Father sees no failure; he sees only he isness going into forever. You create the blossoms of life and even the vileness of it, and the Father will become the vileness and the blossoms and yet never judge the two as to which is greater or which is less. He simply is. He is the isness that allows you to express through him however you choose. And it is a good thing he is that way, for if he truly were this God created by man, their is not one of you who would ever see what is called "pearled gates." Not one of you! For their is not one of you who could ever live up to the expectations of this god created by man.

Only you, through your own attitudes and the acceptance of the attitudes of others, have ever judged yourself. Only you have only caused yourself to feel failure. With the ability to create from your Father whatever truth and reality you desire, you are the sole judge of your own life. Only you have ever determined what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong. Yet in the Isness, called life, no thing is any of these. Everything simply is... a part of the Isness that is called God Almighty. Your judgment is only an illusion that you have created upon this plane of creative realities.

In your limited thinking you have thought that some things are wrong, that they are evil. But that has been your selection of truth, and the Father has allowed you to have it. His truth is called Isness. God loves you regardless of what you do, because everything you do or think enhances the life that he is through the wisdom that you gain from it. God knows that you are forever and that nothing you do can ever take your life-force from you. So, when you pass from this plane and you ponder all the things that you have ever done in your life (and the will), God will still be there, loving you into all of your tommorows for he is the platform through which you create your illusions, your imagination, your dreams.

Now, what is God in its most exalted form? Thought. The Father, the platform which you create your life, the substance and life-force of all things, is, in a greater understanding,Thought. For thought is the ultimate creator of all things that are, that ever have been, that ever will. Thought is the substance from which all things are created. Everything that is has come forth first from thought, which is the supreme intelligence called the Mind of God.

Have you ever pondered what holds all things together in their unique patterns and forms? It is thought, which is the "cosmic glue" called love. That is what holds all matter together. That is love on the grandest scale of all, for that is what the father is. Everything, even your body, is held together by thought. For everything has been envisioned throught thought, which is God, and it is the Father's love of himself that holds everything in place.

You are held together by God. What allows all the molecular and cellular structures of your body to cling together is the love and the grand magnificent Thought that God truly is. Without thought, your body would not exist, matter would not exist-nothing would exist, for thought is the creator and supportive element of all life.

Do you think that God, the thought that holds and binds all things together, is a somber and fearsome entity? It is not. The Father is complete joy, for he knows no other way to be. He is all life-forms vibrating in harmony with one another, which emits a tone that sounds like the roar of laughter. If you listen carefully you can ever hear the music of the Father, the laughter of God. It is the most joyous. I have not once heard him weep.

So what is God, the cause of your precious being, the wondrous life-force that flows and ebbs amongst all of you, that connects and binds you together, that is the promise of life hereafter and eternities to come? It is the Isness that is thought. It is the Isness that is ongoing life. It is the Isness that loves all that it is. It is the Isness that allows life to be through love. It is the Isness that is complete and utter joy. That is your heritage... and your destiny.

MY BELOVED BROTHERS, MANY OF YOU have been taught for ages that the essence called God is a somber, fearsome, angry, judgmental character. But God is none of these things. The God who harangues, who judges, who persecutes, has never existed except in the hearts and minds of men. It is man who created a god that judges some and exalts others. That is the god of man, the creation of man and his will.

The God that I know, that I love, this is the power that issues forth from me and the kingdom that I am, is a God of complete and unjudgmental love. It is nothing else, but everything else. God loves you with greater love than you have ever fathomed, for it is the life that you are, the ground that you walk on, the air that you breathe. It is the color of your skin, the magnificence of your eyes, the gentleness of you touch. It is you in every moment that you are, in every thought that you think, in every deed that you do, ever in the shadows of your soul.

And you are BABA ?? Or should that be Urantia book reader number ? ;)

Well you've got a part of the picture correct, that part being that God is love and that in all things and through all things He makes His presence know to mankind. Getting back to what you said however, it is interesting that we would rather see only one side of who God is and deny the other. To say that God is pure love and then deny that He judges is in itself in my opinion a fallacy and lie. Consider for a moment what exactly it is that you are defining as God's love? Are you saying that Love / God is an emotion presence? Are you saying that Love / God is a state of mind? Are you saying that Love / God is a spiritual plane? A plateau so to speak that we can reach and attain by purging all evil from ourselves? By not being judgemental? Are you inferring that the God of the Jewish / Christian faith is not truly God because He judges?

I would be as bold to state that if these are your views on God and Love they are very wrong. Wrong because Love calls for action and Love calls for responsibility, both of which are character traits of who God is. God is love, and because He is love He must pass judgement. God is Love, and because He is love He must set limits. God is Love, and because He is Love He offers eternal forgiveness to mankind for contravening the boundaries that He has set in Love for the protection of His creation.

Why does God judge? Why will God one day draw time to a close to judge the actions of each and every human being? Why because He is Love and Love calls for and demands justice, justice for all the innocent lives destroyed by acts of violence and selfish ambition. Why do you thing God judged the earth and caused a flood? Why? To remedy a disease called sin, a disease that caused and still causes today conflict amongst men and women that results in the loss of innocence and innocent lives. Those innocent lives stand before the throne of God and cry out for Him to judge their demise justly and in accordance with His infinite wisdom and knowledge. How could Love overlook such things? How does the Love that you speak of address these things? Should God not judge the perpetrators of these crimes? For to not judge them would allow for a fault to be found in the part of His character that calls for all things to be and laid bare and open before him. This will not happen God will never be found at fault.

God and God alone sees the results of all actions, He saw what mankind had chosen to become in the days of Noah. Each one of them choose to do what was right in their own eyes, none spare one and his family choose to believe God. So God in His love showed them mercy and in His long suffering hope He warned the human race for 120 years of pending judgement through the sign of a faithful man who built an ark. Slow to anger and longing that the creatures He created with their free wills would return to Him to be restored. Yet they choose to mock and ridicule the one that testified on God's behalf, they chose to buy and sell, to marry and be given in marriage, to sleep, eat, drink, war, love, create and destroy without heading the message. The message that told them that their actions would call for judgement against them in the suffering and pain inflicted against each other and against their creator. Jesus said it would be the same when He returned, that men and women would be carrying on acting to fulfil their own desires without paying heed to the warnings placed before them. Indeed He even questioned if when the son of man returns will He find faith in the earth?

Love, true love calls for judgement. Calls for justice and calls for restoration. God knew that we could not achieve that which His son did by our own means, so He made for us an escape through the sacrifice of His only begotten son, Jesus. There is only one God and one mediator between God and man, that being Jesus Christ the holy lamb of God. None other has walked the face of this earth and withstood the onslaught of the evil one bar Jesus. None other has remained true to that which the Father created them for bar Jesus. None other has remained sinless and died sinless bar Jesus. None other could take on and become the very character and nature of the Father bar the one who was sinless and could enter into the presence of the Father as a sinless one. None other existed before time began bar Jesus, He, Jesus became Emmanuel, God with us and through Him being murdered as an innocent man, as the sacrificial lamb of God to take away the sins of human kind we can be restored to the Father through the Son. We can never, not one of us become all that He is and all that He was when He walked the face of our planet in the form of a man. To even consider that we could is an insult to all that God is, to consider that because God is love He will overlook our wickedness is an insult to His holiness and an insult to the innocent who have had their breath drawn from them, and all to often even before they even breath.

God will judge, He will Judge in Love and justice. God being all knowing and wise knows that we as fallen man can not stand under His Holy judgement and so in Love He gave of Himself, His only son to take our place in sin and offer us salvation and restoration to the Father as a gift of grace, amazing grace.

Allcare

Tony

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

Tony!!

Welcome back, my friend!

StarScream,

Wow, nothing to say but bravo. I've said it many times before, yes, Jesus is the son of God. We all are. There is no such thing as pure good or pure evil, it's all in the perception. Thanks for putting it out so clearly. And welcome to Exosci, while I'm at it. :)

What you're saying about thought holding us together, reminds me of a more eastern mode of thought. Is that one of your influences?

As a point of curiosity, what religious path (if any) would you say you belong to? Merely curious. :)

Blessings.

[This message has been edited by MoonCat (edited August 02, 2000).]

Starscream,

Uh, I haven't been taught anything like that whatsoever by Jesus or the Bible, so I have no idea where you're getting your info, but it's definately not from the christian faith. Maybe it's organized religious organizations that you're getting your info from??? Or could it be..........SATAN?!?!?!

See guys, this is the religion of the coming antichrist. This is what Satan is very good at...taking the pretty part of the Bible as truth, and then ignoring the other half. It's bullshit, it's warped, it's a pipe-dream, and a misconstrued illogical one at that. Everything's perception huh? Yea, that's rich. All I can say is that you must have one hell of a flexible perception not to be able to recognize an inherent good and evil in this life. On second thought, you must be wearing rose colored glasses.

And on to your misconceptions regarding christianity and God. Judgement is not a bad thing silly. What's with all of the doom and gloom? Are you scared???? Boo! Judgement is simply a perfect knowledge of how your intentions and respective works in life have affected this universe. What's so bad about that? Oh yea, you don't want to have to take responsibility for making any mistakes, or hurting anyone, or being selfish, or greedy, or jealous, or lustful, or proud, or lazy, RIGHT? Well, tough noogies, cause one of these days, you'll find out whether you want to or not. And then your little theory o' relativity isn't going to mean too much to you. There is nothing WRONG or BAD or PUNISHING about knowing the truth about life. It's the knowledge that we all seek...some of us just don't know where to look, you know, it must be the glasses getting in the way. So your contention is that God cannot love you unconditionally if you make mistakes, or if you do something wrong? You're the one placing limits on God. And that limit doesn't make any sense. Fess up, you don't believe that BS because it makes sense, you believe it because it makes you feel real warm and fuzzy. Can you say p-i-p-e-d-r-e-a-m?

Oh, and I'm in a betting mood, any takers? I bet that Starscream has been abducted by aliens, or visited so to speak, and I bet that this "enlightenment", and I use that term very loosely here, comes from "aliens of light", or "beings of light", or masters or wisdom, or some such demonic shit. Who wants to lose some money? :D Well, Starscream?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 02, 2000).]

Lori,

Y'know, just because someones' getting a different message than you are doesn't mean it's freakin' Satan. Unless, of course, YOU are perfect and incapable of getting anything wrong, and we both know that ain't the case.

Don't you think it's just a little bit possible it's from another source? I'm awfully tired of hearing about Satan all the time. For pete's sake, most of the BS you hear about Satan is just twisted-up Pagan myths that the Church put out to villify the Pagan Horned God anyway.

I'm just getting tired of anything that doesn't fit into Lori-land being a spawn of Satan. It gets old, it really really does. I like you, but you're starting to drive me a bit bonkers. Alien conspiracies, genetic manipulation, ad nauseum...Lori, you aren't wearing an aluminum foil hat, are you? ;) 'Cause you know, that will keep them nasty buggers from reading your thoughts. :D

Starscream,

Your thoughts seem to run very closely to the teachings of the Essenes (a jewish sect). If so do you also believe in the healing practices they teach, such as hydrotherapy. This is where they flush water up into the colon, via you no where, until only clean water comes out.

Sorry, just had to mention that, I find it quite amusing.Immature? I know. :)

But seriously,any conection to the Essenes?

StarScream--

Unless I'm reading you about 180-degrees incorrectly, Amen, as such. There is little, perhaps nothing, I could add to the scope of your topic post that wouldn't simply splinter off into irrelevance.

On the other hand ... welcome to Exosci, and welcome to the Enemies List--you'd be amazed at how many of us are apparently led by ... SATAN. ;)

MoonCat--

(actually, I was going to chide you for even attempting to meet Lori on her rhetoric, but suddenly I found my own self in the same moment. ;) )

Lori--

Y'know, Hasidism chases that inner spark of divinity. Slightly different goals, but what I'm after is that the idea of God-within-human isn't particularly nuts. Generally, it takes an act of compassionate force, such as the arrest of Shabbetai Zevi, who is regarded as having betrayed Judaism when, in a wave of Messianic fever surrounding his ministry, he renounced his faith in favor of Islam at the stake of his life.

Give me a cosmic break!

Are you sure you're back from your last one? ;)

See guys, this is the religion of the coming antichrist. This is what Satan is very good at...taking the pretty part of the Bible as truth, and then ignoring the other half. It's bullshit, it's warped, it's a pipe-dream, and a misconstrued illogical one at that.

Italic portion: As compared to what individual, imperfect person taking the Bible as the Word of God?

Bold portion: Based on what? The opinions of the Christians who buy books like Death Penalty for Homosexuals?

Rev. Peter J Peters advocates such a standard. Y'oughta try that website: http://www.identity.org/files/homo.html ... if you bother with it, consider that bit about, "May he and all Christian soldiers be mindful of the need to be obedient to our Great Commander and Master, the Lord Jesus Christ, and uphold His orders concerning homosexuality." And then read where he cites Jesus. He cites other people's letters describing homosexuality (Romans, Corinthians) and the Old Testament, from before Christ's ministry. The only words of Christ he cites are firewalls against criticizing such notions. Now ... of the people who support such ministries, hawking hate on TV and the internet--are these the opinions upon which you base your assertions of bullshit pipe-dreams? I mean, how intelligent are these people, really? Yet they seem to have a greater effect on those whose belief in God isn't allegedly Satanic.

Y'might want to take a look at how far off the handle you've flown; it might be a single-flight record.

From Toad the Wet Sprocket:

i feel my body weakened by the years
as people turn to gods of cruel design
is it that they fear the pain of death
or could it be they fear the joy of life

pray your gods who rule you by your fear
for they are quick and ruthless punishers
or lay upon my altar now your love
i fear my day is done
there are armies moving on
be quick, my love


'nuff said. But yeah, y'might want to consider how many boasts you're making on God's behalf, and consider whether you know that you're right, and that you have that right to speak on God's behalf, or whether you say those things because, as you put it, "it makes you feel real warm and fuzzy"?

I mean, really, it's like you're shouting, "My dad can beat up your dad!" Who says the ol' man really wants to beat anyone up? Your warm fuzzy comes from plucking Jesus' beard.

Name your God and bleed the freak ... (Alice in Chains)

So long as Satan has as much power as you give him, God's plan is completely arbitrary.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 02, 2000).]

Lori,

Jesus was a God-man. The product of God, our Father, and a human woman. There is no other like Him, nor will there be.

The divinity of Jesus was determined by the Church Fathers at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Once these MEN decreed that Jesus was the son of God, to believe otherwise and to express such belief was heresy - and you know what they did to heretics, don't you? Forgive me if I take Starscream's version of God over yours - it makes a lot more sense to me than the Christian dogma that has been so forcefully handed down to us by the Catholic Church over the centuries. (Ever wonder why the "truth" needed the threat of death behind it?)

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

The "truth" doesn't need the threat of death behind it. This threat wasn't made becuase people rejected the divinity of Jesus, it was becuase they threatened the stronghold and the greed of the Catholic church. If it was purely based on whether or not Jesus was God then they wouldn't have threatened the life of Martin Luther.

Tiassa,

Because I am a believer does not make this person an "enemy" to me, merely someone holding a different opinion, whether I think that person right or wrong is irelevant and a person doesn't need to be lead by Satan to commit a wrong, all of us are quite capable of that on our own. :)

[This message has been edited by Francis Ritchie (edited August 02, 2000).]

Francis--

Truer words ... it's a stretch. On any given day I agree with you wholeheartedly, and at the present moment I do. I will readily admit, though, that I did, quite obviously, feel the need to do a little flying off the handle of my own.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 02, 2000).]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a flippin' minute here. I'm semi-confused, which I'm sure that wouldn't surprise Tiassa one bit. Did you all forget that I was a Christian, and believe what it says in the Bible? Why are you all dissing me because I believe that Satan exists, and I believe what it says about him in the Word? Give me a good reason not to, and I'll consider it, but it's not like I haven't put any thought into this ok? And it's also not like the Bible doesn't do a perfect job of describing the teachings and the methods and the goal of Satan. You know, MC, Searcher, Starscream, I'm really sorry that it hurts your feelings or whatever that I think that the beings that you communicate with are demons. Hell, I don't think...I KNOW FOR SURE. Do you think that I dislike you or think you're bad people or think you're stupid or evil or something? I wish that you wouldn't allow your misconceptions and prejudices regarding christians and christianity cloud your mind so much. I've been out here talking to you for a good long time now, and you don't even have an excuse to accuse me of some of the ridiculous assumptions that you have. I know that Satan exists ok? What do you want me to do? Lie to you just to make you feel good? Can't I offer my opinion up here? It's not a forum anymore, what? Have you ever considered my point of view here? I love you guys out here a lot. All of you. You seem like really nice people, and I would like to consider us friends of some sort. And you know what I believe to be true about who it is that you're getting enlightenment from. How do you think that makes me feel, knowing what I know about Satan and his purpose? Now do I come out here and poop all over your beliefs, and tell you how sick and tired I am of you talking about your fluffy little goddess? No, I don't. I have a little more respect than that. And you know, what's with this "Lori-land" bullshit? Try the Bible ok? I'm not making this shit up for crying out loud!!!!! Damn! F you and your f'ing foil hat, that really pisses me off. Go ahead and act like I haven't taken my spiritual path seriously if you want to, but it's not true, and it's not nice. I don't accuse you of "making up" your spiritual beliefs in your head for funsies do I? No, I don't.

Tiassa,

"Death Penalty for Homosexuals" huh? Well you know, I've been so damn good lately, with not cussing and all, but today, in light of the rest of your pissy attitudes, I'm sayin'....fuck you. And that's all I'm sayin' to that bullshit.

And, who is the enemy? You'd better take that back. Don't be putting words in my mouth, misrepresenting me you know, just because you don't understand jack about what I think. Satan is the enemy. My "Well hello Satan"? Duh, that was supposed to be funny. I don't think Starscream is Satan, you silly, silly man you. Starscream is a friend, not an enemy. And what is with the "my dad can beat up your dad" thing? You're really grasping....probably should have just said nothing if that's all you could come up with. I'm not giving Satan power just because I know his game...I'm exposing him for who he is. So shoot me.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 03, 2000).]

Lori--

A couple of quick points, to start:

Did you all forget that I was a Christian, and believe what it says in the Bible? Why are you all dissing me because I believe that Satan exists, and I believe what it says about him in the Word? Give me a good reason not to, and I'll consider it, but it's not like I haven't put any thought into this ok?

* No, we didn't forget.
* No, I, at least, am being difficult on the issue because it's your best excuse for not giving deeper thought to other people's opinions, conclusions, sentiments, ad infinitum, when they confound, contradict, or confuse your own perspective on your own ideas. For all the attributing to Satan you, or other Christian voices do, I've never seen, heard, or been given the notion that a cosmology exists to demonstrate that such a powerful Satan serves any other purpose but a scapegoat.
* The best reason I can think of to discount the Devil and its power is that the Devil is extraneous to the formula: the Devil has no purpose in the Universe.

And it's also not like the Bible doesn't do a perfect job of describing the teachings and the methods and the goal of Satan.

Really? Where? A perfect job of describing those attributes of Satan? (Remember the difference between "a satan" and "Satan". Thus, most of the Old Testament is out, imho, but don't let that stop you. ;) )

I know that Satan exists ok? What do you want me to do? Lie to you just to make you feel good? Can't I offer my opinion up here? It's not a forum anymore, what? Have you ever considered my point of view here?

* What I would ask, had I my druthers, is that your first reaction to something which confuses or contradicts your principles not be to start warding off Devils. I would further ask that you not dismiss people's academic or spiritual credibility by claiming them led by the Devil. Consider what happens when I describe something as "negro". Actually, there's a number of nations in the world where that's the word. But when I put it into an American context, with as much anti-African racism as has existed here, it becomes "Negro", bearing all of the negative sentiment we're aware of. Will Satan be redeemed? He is, I might remind, the eternal enemy of your theology, according to that theology. On the one hand, stop calling people what you seem to hate the most. You don't hate? Then maybe there's a deeper process at work here: you attribute devilish attributes to people because you don't understand them, and can give yourself a reason to fear, and thus oppose them.

* I think lying to make us all feel good is only an conversion of what you do now: lie to yourself to make yourself feel good. No matter how you cut it, whatever evil you see in the world, whatever evil you suffer in the world, it is as your own God wants it, period.

* And of course you can offer your opinion here; I would hope you're not resorting to Pashley's lament.

* And yes, some of us have considered these aspects of your point of view many, many times. It still reads like your opinion, to me, and thus your condemnations of StarScream seem to bear the opinion-generated force of negative regard.

How do you think that makes me feel, knowing what I know about Satan and his purpose?

Jesus and Satan, as such, might well drink together; after all, do not mortal enemies entertain one another? At any rate, they're both cracking up about that, as well as the bartender and the piano man.

You seem to know a larger portion of the ineffable than the rest of the world. Can you make it effable?

Now do I come out here and poop all over your beliefs, and tell you how sick and tired I am of you talking about your fluffy little goddess? No, I don't. I have a little more respect than that.

:cool: :confused: :) :D

I might get back to that when I stop laughing.

Go ahead and act like I haven't taken my spiritual path seriously if you want to, but it's not true, and it's not nice.

Lori, I'm quite sure you take your spiritual path seriously. But stop disrespecting other people's paths! Geemeneezers, how serious of regard are you giving other people when your first, primary, and only argument is that they are, or are possessed by, or are influenced, led, or enslaved by Satan? What, did God make people so that they're completely incapable of independent thought? I don't think so, especially since it's 2000 years gone by since the Wise Son and we still see people jockeying for elbow room. If humans weren't capable of independent thought, all of this would have been resolved a long time ago: we would have evolved right out of the food chain.

I don't accuse you of "making up" your spiritual beliefs in your head for funsies do I?

No, you just tell everybody that your mortal enemy is their slavemaster.

A note on your 8/2 post to StarScream; the longer post:

See guys, this is the religion of the coming antichrist. This is what Satan is very good at...taking the pretty part of the Bible as truth, and then ignoring the other half.

See, Lori, this kind of theology is the kind that's just made up by individuals to give them an excuse to exercise arbitrary, often discriminatory, generally fanciful authority .... See what I mean? It kind of reads the same, doesn't it?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Lori,

"Now do I come out here and poop all over your beliefs..."

Um, lesse, from that very same post...

"..think that the beings that you communicate with are demons. Hell, I don't think...I KNOW FOR SURE. "

I dunno 'bout you, but if it looks like poop, and it smells like poop...

I'm at work, so no time at the moment, but Lori, I'm coming back to this one. Let me just say for now that your frustration with my "foil hat" comment is probably about equal to my frustration with your incessant "you worship a demon" comments. Difference is mine was a joke, yours is not.

StarScream,
your ideas and tone sound remarkably like my old mate's Keni St George who used to go to the Wimbledon Temple, you're not he are you?

Coss

Lori,

As for your question about whether or not you "poop" on other people's beliefs, I submit the following webpage address as evidence:
http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000138-2.html

where you made the following statement concerning Flash's beliefs at the time:

Now I'm truly sorry, really, that this is such a bitter pill. I'm sorry that my beliefs just poop all over all of this "new-found light". But hey, what can I say? I'm going to be an octopus.

I definitely think this is "pooping".

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Lori,

I love your zealousness, but I have one request, could you tone down your language please? We're called to lead by example, an angry tongue doesn't do this.

But be assured, I'm not trying to get at you, I love the stand you take. :)

Lori,

Do you recall making the following promise?

Ok, I'm making a promise right now that I won't cuss on this board ever again.

If you need to refresh your memory, you can review the entire conversation at the following webpage address:

http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000138-3.html

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Okay, I have a bit of time. Just so you'se guys know, I'm running short on staff nowadays so I'm actually having to work most of the day. So please excuse the choppiness you'll probably see in my posts, I'm writing them between calls.

Lori,

Now, before you get your panties in a bunch, (thank goodness Heathen's offline at the moment, he'd be gettin' all hot & bothered right about now, lol) you gotta know I do care about you. Damned if I know why, but I do. An' I'm not picking on you, I'm just getting a bit frustrated with you, and I can't let this slip by. And the "foil hat" comment really was a joke, that's why I peppered it with smileys, I wasn't really trying to offend you, just get my point across. The rest of the post was serious, but that last comment really was just a joke, okay? (end disclaimer)

Okay, moving on, "I wish that you wouldn't allow your misconceptions and prejudices regarding christians and christianity cloud your mind so much."

Huh? Please point out anything I said about Christians or Christianity that you believe indicates a misconception or a prejudice. Really, I don't see what you're talking about.

"I know that Satan exists ok? " Okay, well, I know he doesn't. So where does that leave us? With opposing views, that's where. So why should I accept your view when you won't accept mine?? You act like all of a sudden this light is going to come on over my head and I'm gonna start believing in a purely evil being. I'm sorry Lori, but it just ain't gonna happen. Just as I don't ever expect you to start believing in my God and Goddess. So be it.

Can you have your opinion? Certainally! Can I have mine? Certainally! Can you poop all over my opinion? Apparently so! Can I poop all over yours? Apparently not! Do you see where I'm having trouble with this??


"And it's also not like the Bible doesn't do a perfect job of describing the teachings and the methods and the goal of Satan. " and "what's with this "Lori-land" bullshit? Try the Bible ok?"

Lori, you know as well as I do that just about everything in the bible can be twisted around to justify just about anyone's goal or opinion. Just visit a "god hates fags" or "god hates blacks" or "god hates _______(fill in the blank)" website if you'd like an example. We are both smart enough to know these sites are garbage, right? I say "Lori-land" because you are the ONLY person I have EVER met with this alien/demon/phase-shift/whatever theory. That is YOUR theory, is NOT in the bible, though you may find things here & there that would back it up, just like it appears to back up so many other ideas. Obviously, some of these conflicting ideas are false. Yours strikes me as being particularly "out there" (pardon the pun), and of all the theories I've heard, it seems to me to be just about the least likely. So that's where the "Lori-land bullshit" comes from. If/when I read the bible, I'll betcha a few thousand dollars I won't find any mention of aliens, phase shifts, genetic maniuplation... It's all in the interpretation, in YOUR interpretation.

Last thought for the moment: "...fluffy little goddess..." Fluffy? Hee, hee, hee! :D She's a lot of things Lori, but She ain't just fluffy! She's the Dark Mother too, She causes death and destruction along with life and creation. She is the Full Circle that all life passes through, both the "fluffy" stuff and the "heavy" stuff. She is Life, which consists of bright moments as well as dim ones, creation as well as destruction, growth as well as decay, etc.

Blessings.

Ok, fine, I've pooped. Yes, yes, and the cussing. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! Whatever. How about this....I'll stop using the f word if Tiassa quits posting all of these obnoxious, insane, warped, anti-christian links and refs by insane people who know and understand nothing about my faith yet claim to be christians. IS THAT FAIR??????? Hey Tiassa, is that f'ing fair or what? We've been talking now for a year right? And I've got HOW MANY posts out here again? Do you think that you could get it through your fat head that I don't buy into the insanity bs that you so conveniently use to deny my faith? Get a clue....I'm apparently not as gullable as you are, so give it up....I'm never going to buy it ok? None of the "Death to Homosexuals" crap you can post on here has anything to do with christianity. Just because some insane idiot says so, doesn't make it true, and if you would look at the word and understand it for about 2 seconds, you would see that....unless you're retarded, like the people that you keep posting about that is. You let them win Tiassa. That's what pisses me off. You let those asshole's make a point, by buying into their warped idea of what they want Jesus to be like....only to feed their own egos. They are blind, and so are you, and for you to continually try to put that stupid useless blindfold on my eyes gets old after a year or so. So forgive me my anger and frustration, but honestly, I don't want to see another stupid bs link like that ever posted to me again. You want to know my opinion about some f'd up theology like that, I'd be glad to offer it up, but you and I both know Tiassa, that you already know my opinion about these things, you're just trying to piss me off right? So congratulations. You piss me off, then I have to come out here and apologize for getting pissed, and you get to sit back and have a laugh at my expense. Are you bored? Whatever.

MC,

Ok, this is what I mean, you take it personally don't you when I say that I think your goddess is a demon. YOU SAY, "I worship demons", or "You think I worship demons". Well, do you understand that I know that you don't worship demons? Like you don't know that they're demons, so it's not like you're worshipping a demon, you don't believe they exist. I keep getting a sense of personal defense from you, and I guess it stands to reason...I just want to make sure you know that I know that you don't know that they're demons. Does that make sense? It's not like I think you're doing it on purpose you know? It's not personal...I'm not trying to make it that way. I like you...but I don't like them, and I don't like what they're doing to you. Can that be ok with you? I can't change how I feel about this. I don't have a choice. You guys want me to believe that soooooooo much is open to sooooooooo varied an interpretation in the Bible. Remember, that's YOUR religion, not mine. I don't think that everything is relative, or open to anyone's personal interpretation. Yea, realistically, I don't know the absolute truth, and neither does anyone else...but there IS ONE. And IT is NOT open to interpretation. And I'm sorry, but if you read the Bible, and studied it, even just the MAJOR, overriding principles, you would see that what you believe to be true about it just doesn't jive. It just doesn't work. To say that there is no good or evil, no right or wrong, and that everything is relative, goes directly against the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ. There is just no way around that without the use of some very dark rose colored glasses. Let me ask you this, because it seems contradictory to me but...How can harm be done, if there is no evil or wrong? What is the definition of harm, if there is no right or wrong?

Sorry Francis...I'll try harder...*Lori climbing back up on the "wagon"*

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 05, 2000).]

Lori,

Don't hold back - tell us what you really think! ;)

You piss me off, then I have to come out here and apologize for getting pissed, and you get to sit back and have a laugh at my expense. Are you bored? Whatever.

You make it way too easy, Lori. If you didn't react with such volatility to what people say here, we wouldn't bother trying to get your goat - there wouldn't be much point in it. Also, I might point out that you're usually the one to start it with the comments you make about the beliefs of others, which makes it soooooo much fun for us to retaliate with similar comments about you and your beliefs.

Actually, I think Tiassa has made some very valid and well thought out observations here, to which you have failed to respond in a rational manner. Don't blame us if you fail to keep your head in a debate. Your shortcomings are not our problem.

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Searcher,

Well please forgive me my shortcomings then, by all means, I'm so sorry. Do you mind answering me a question though, in regards to your "kudos to Tiassa for his good points"? And that is, how do you think the post he made in response to mine, citing some homophobic organized rhetoric, was at all relevant to the discussion? Maybe I'm just missing it, but I fail to see a point, which leads me to believe that he has no point, but just wishes to push my buttons? I don't know? But back to the orginal topic, I'd be happy to oblige...

Tiassa,

#1) You say that I am attributing the teachings that are cited by Starscream above, and to teachings that are perpetuated by spiritual beings such as goddesses, or aliens, or masters of wisdom, to Satan as an excuse to not give deeper thought to those beliefs. And I'm sorry, but I challenge you on this. This is no excuse, and this isn't some blind rhetoric I picked up somewhere that I haven't thought about. As a matter of fact, for at least the past two years, I've been doing a lot of research into these types of spiritual manifestations and what are sometimes called new age religions, and how this all relates to what it says in scripture. You know, and you don't give a crap if that's been a heavy focus, and I must say a rather intimate one, regarding my friendship with Flash, and sharing in her experience with all of this. This isn't something that I take lightly, and shouldn't you know that? Don't you understand how condescending YOU are being by assuming that I'm spewing blind rhetoric just so I don't have to think for crying out loud?

#2) What is this "the devil has no purpose" thing? Are you making that up? Where in the bible does it describe what Satan is about? Are you kidding? How about all over the place, read it sometime? I don't even know what to say to that??? Do you really want me to go into how he's a fallen angel? Used to be the best of the best? God's right hand man? The fall? And his purpose would be to deceive mankind...not because he gives a rat's ass about us anymore, but just to hurt God. To turn us away...distract us with our flesh, to rationalize idolatry, to blind us so that we never get to know the difference. It's kind of a big topic, but that's a start. I'm just not sure where you're getting this "Satan is made up" thing...maybe you could clarify. And maybe you could clarify the difference between an upper case and lower case s in satan? What in the hell are you talking about? That was a pun!

#3) You mentioned something about making satan a scapegoat. What are you talking about? How am I making satan a scapegoat? A scapegoat for WHAT?! There is nothing in this conversation that we're having which points to satan as a scapegoat for anything, and I know I'm not imagining that...so again...please, please clarify.

#4) Ok, as for your next paragraph, may I just begin by saying that you are just profoundly wrong in an all encompassing sense. Now for particulars, warding off devils, as you so eloquently put it, is not some knee-jerk reaction of mine when someone's beliefs conflict or confuse mine. Now that IS what you said...that's exactly what you said...do you understand how pathetically demeaning that is? Who cares if you understand. The truth is this, whether you guys like it or not...these beliefs do not confuse me, and I am more familiar with these beliefs than some who claim to believe! As I've said, and it's obvious, this isn't the first time I've heard this stuff. I've read up on it ok? And guess what? Because I AM familiar, and I also AM familiar with what it says about Satan in the bible, THAT is where my conclusions come from, NOT the opposite of that which you are proposing. You act like I'm making this stuff up just to hear myself talk, or just to get on your nerves. I'm not making this up! Satan REALLY does present himself to be beautiful, and loving, and desirable, and peaceful, and he really is a deceiver of mankind, and he really does know how to take what we like about the bible, and smart enough to know what we can't argue with about the bible, and then leave the other half out. That's what you expect me to do. That's what I would HAVE to do in order to buy into the stuff about everything's relative, and there is no right and wrong, and the devils are imaginery.

Then you say something about negros, which, I'm just not even understanding, nor do I wish to...

Which leads me to HATING and attributing DEVISISH ATTRIBUTES to my fellow chatters, and demeaning their academic and spiritual credibility, and ALL THIS because it's easier than understanding them? Wow. That's quite an assumption you're making. Are you sure about that? *startled look* First of all, I do not hate them, oppose them, nor do I attribute devilish attributes to them. This is not about THEM. As for THEM, I respect them, I appreciate their intelligence, I think that they're nice people with good intentions, and I do not get the impression that most of the people out here are lax in their quest for spirituality. As a matter of fact, I think that the only way a show of this nature is warranted by demonic spirits is in light of a spiritual quest. He doesn't pull out the heavy artilery for the light weights. I know that you have to be a seeker of the truth to have the opportunity to be deceived in this particular way in the first place. People who are resided to atheism or agnostic beliefs are easy...well, he gets to them the same way he gets to all of us...the flesh. Are you trying to say that I think a person has to be stupid or a "spiritual retard" or not educated enough about whatever to be deceived by satan?!?!?!?! Uh, I'd have to include myself then...as he continues to deceive me on a daily basis I'm sure. Just not in this particular way...not with the laser light show...but believe me, I've got my own pair of blinders that I will work to remove until the day I keel over. If someone knew they were being deceived, then they wouldn't be being deceived now would they? It's not an insult. This isn't personal. Ok, this part is, but only this part....I think that the idea of there being no absolute truth, no right and wrong, no good and evil, in the universe, and that everything is just relative, and there are no rules, no consequences, no bad, no good, it's all just how you choose to see it, is illogical based upon REALITY. When you look around the world today, when you live your life, when you know pain and joy, when you have to solve a moral paradox, it's an illogical premise. Like I said, how can harm exist if there is no difference? If everything is relative, THEN SO IS HARM.

#5) You say that everything that I see as evil in this world is according to how my God wants it...and yes, I agree with you. But let me clarify...given the free will that the beings that God created were given, this is how He wants it to be. This is how it has to be, yea, cause He said so, and ya know, He's always right. The whole point is that we have a choice, we had a choice, satan had a choice. Which if I'm not mistaken PROVES that there MUST be a difference, or there would be no choices...a right choice, and a wrong one, a good one, a bad one, one based upon holy intentions, and one based upon malintent. Yea, the fact that we suffer from sin is SUPPOSED to show us that there exists sin. It does me, but that's me?

#6) As for the notion of Jesus sitting at a bar laughing at us, or me...how do you expect me to take you seriously? What are you trying to do, make it seem like I was boasting about my infinite knowledge of satan? Listen _____, I'm not saying I'm Jesus, ok? I'm not talking about any more of a knowledge base than anyone else with half a brain can't get from the most BASIC messages in the bible. Man, Jesus isn't laughing ok? He's not. It's not funny...you should know that.

#7) And for your last comment regarding theology exercising authority...I have a feeling this is your typical "anti-christian power trip" rhetoric...but just to ask...what authority are you referring to Tiassa? Mine? Over whom? Over what? Over nothing, that's what. I can always count on you to totally miss the point can't I? This is what I think...for the record...that satan is the most deceiving being in relation to humans that exists. In your arrogance, you are assuming that I am assuming that for someone to be deceived by satan, that they must be stupid, or disconcerning, or gullable, or intellectually, or spiritually challenged. No, actually, I think that generally, they're intellectually and spiritually enlightened enough to be seekers in the first place, and that's impressive enough to start. See Tiassa, what you're accusing me of believing is contradictory...you say on one hand that I'm glorifying satan by assigning him this ability to deceive, and then you turn around and claim that I'm belittling the spiritual and intellectual capabilities of those he deceives. That's backwards. The better the deceiver that I think he is, the more credibility I give to those who he deceives. If I were to believe that satan had no power, or was just a myth, or was "obviously evil" and recognizable, THEN AND ONLY THEN would I be discounting the credibility of those who are "stupid enough" to be deceived. See my point?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.


[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 05, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 05, 2000).]

Lori,

Do you mind answering me a question though, in regards to your "kudos to Tiassa for his good points"? And that is, how do you think the post he made in response to mine, citing some homophobic organized rhetoric, was at all relevant to the discussion?

Uh, did I say anything about the remark regarding the homophobes when I said that Tiassa had made some good points? Where did you get the idea that's the post I meant? The actual post I was referring to at the time was the one he posted on August 03, 2000 at 02:36 PM, when he made all those points about "Satan", i.e., his purpose in the universe, his purpose in the Christian religion, how you are always so quick to blame everything on a character that many of us consider to be fictional, etc. Instead of responding in a rational manner to Tiassa's points in that post, you kept going off about some remark in a previous post.

I guess that Tiassa's point to you when he brought up the homophobe issue was that the Bible shouldn't be taken as 100% literal truth, and the only people who insist that it is literally 100% true are the same nutty fundamentalist types who believe that homosexuals should be put to death. Now that you mention it, I guess I can include that post in the list of good points that Tiassa has made and to which you have failed to respond in a rational manner. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Searcher,

Why the animosity? Haven't you talked to your goddess in a while honey? I did respond rationally to his post????????? See, maybe Tiassa can jump out here and clear this up but, Searcher, dear, he didn't post that with the message of "see what happens when you take the Bible too literally". He posted that out here because he actually uses that BS as an excuse to say that christianity is a bunch of malicious, insane, hateful crap, that was basically made up in order to serve someones power trip. So see, Tiassa actually believes that these idiots are practicing christianity, so his point is that if that is christianity, then it's garbage, obviously. Well, my response is the same as it has been for a year now, the gazillionth time over that he's posted this idiotic arguement is that THAT'S NOT CHRISTIANITY...STUPID! That's why I went off, and just told him to f off...he's an f'ing broken record with the crap, and it makes no sense to begin with. He knows, HE HAS TO KNOW, how I feel about that CRAP, and YET, he continues to bring it up!?!?!?!?!?! WHY? It's illogical. Now if his point was....see what happens when people use religion for the wrong intent? For power? See what happens when people who don't understand Christ, nor know Him, nor care to know Him, try to practice "christianity"? See satan at work within organized religion? Maybe if he were to choose some different verses out of the Bible to prove these hate mongers wrong, and said "See, that's not what Jesus said". But he doesn't. He wants to believe that the insane bs IS christianity, therefore supporting his denial of faith in Christ. He doesn't like the fact that I keep pointing out how ludicrous his arguement and justification is. Soooooo, given the irrationality of HIS post, AND the fact that he and I have discussed this bs at length for oh, a YEAR or so, I think that f you is a completely rational response. Slightly obnoxious, yet rational none the less. It's like what he wants me to say is "Oh well Tiassa, you're right, christianity MUST be a bunch of crap, because Jesus teaches people to want to kill faggots". And I'm sorry Searcher, but you will NEVER hear something THAT STUPID come out of MY mouth...EVER. I know better, and he knows that.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

No animosity here - sorry if it reads like that. I guess the written expression of disagreement or reproof can come across as animosity, but I really don't intend it that way. But speaking of posts that are full of animosity, perhaps you should go reread some of yours whenever you emerge from that lower half of your emotional sinewave. I think you will have to agree that your use of expletives against Tiassa, or anyone else for that matter, demonstrates a lack of self-control, particularly in light of your promise not to do so. In my opinion, at least, that qualifies your response as irrational.

Anyway, just to refresh your memory on what Tiassa said in response to some of your remarks (beginning with him quoting one of your statements):


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See guys, this is the religion of the coming antichrist. This is what Satan is very good at...taking the pretty part of the Bible as truth, and then ignoring the other half. It's bullshit, it's warped, it's a pipe-dream, and a misconstrued illogical one at that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Italic portion: As compared to what individual, imperfect person taking the Bible as the Word of God?

Bold portion: Based on what? The opinions of the Christians who buy books like Death Penalty for Homosexuals?


In the italicized part, you were saying that you cannot take the portions of the Bible you like and discard the rest - in other words, the entire Bible is true - right? In the bold part, you painted those who read the Bible in such a piecemeal manner as warped, illogical, etc. - right? Well, is this not how the Fundies think? The same people who support the death penalty for homosexuals? At any rate, that's the meaning I derived from Tiassa's remarks, but perhaps Tiassa would be so kind as to enlighten us on his intended meaning?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Ok, yes Searcher, I agree, I think, if I have this straight. You're saying that what I'm saying is wrong about taking half of the bible as true and ignoring the other half, like Starscream and others do, is the same thing that fundies do, while spouting their hate messages...right??? Ok, yes, it's the same thing!!!!! I'm not sure if the intent behind the action is the same, as I haven't really given it much thought. But I didn't get that same message from Tiassa. What I got was that in the italic portion, he's questioning whether an imperfect person can conclude that the bible is the word of God. Which doesn't really make sense to me as an analogy, but it's the way it reads to me none the less. He's still trying to disprove something. Like as if due to the fact that these mistakes are made, that the bible isn't really the word of God. When the bible itself denounces doing exactly what we're talking about people doing! And then in the bold part, he goes on to question whether taking part of the bible as truth, and ignoring the other half, is wrong according to the hate mongers???? It's the very same thing that the hate mongers do...I'M the one who's pointing out that BOTH of these "groups" are wrong according to the teachings of Jesus which are in the bible. So no Tiassa, not according to the hate mongers...according to me and according to the bible and according to Jesus and according to the faith which is called christianity. It's a fairly simple concept, which is why my frustration shows...Tiassa is a very smart person, so I know it's not a lack of intelligence that's holding him back on this one. Can't figure it out, and it's frustrating, so I'm sorry.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Hey guys, just a small note,

I take the whole Bible as the truth, but it must be put into context. The Bible is a continueing story about God's interaction with his people, it involves progress and it involves change, which is why it seemingly has contradictions in it. I'm not going it to it to much, but that's what I think, the Bible is a story about development of firstly a nation (Israel) and then another nation (the church), and the story unfolds accordingly.

Just my opinion but I hope it helps some of this frustration. :)

Wow.

Normally I'm not afraid to pitch high and tight, but Lori seems to think I've pulled an "Esteban Yan" here.

I'll try to start w/Lori's 8/5 post with the list of long questions:


#1) You say that I am attributing the teachings that are cited by Starscream above, and to teachings that are perpetuated by spiritual beings such as goddesses, or aliens, or masters of wisdom, to Satan as an excuse to not give deeper thought to those beliefs. And I'm sorry, but I challenge you on this.


I'm sorry, Lori, but you really do have a propensity for relying on "Satanic" inspiration for your initial dismissals of many people's reasonably arguable ideas.

Consider, please, Our Friend StarScream. Welcome to Exosci, son! Your first post makes you Satanic! The first line of your first response: Well hello Satan!

Now even I would have let that go as a joke; at this point I don't care; it seems to be part of your ... humor, as I'm willing to agree for the time being. So Our Friend spills a more daring second post than most of us are willing to put up, and what does that get?

Uh, I haven't been taught anything like that whatsoever by Jesus or the Bible, so I have no idea where you're getting your info, but it's definately not from the christian faith. Maybe it's organized religious organizations that you're getting your info from??? Or could it be..........SATAN?!?!?!

See guys, this is the religion of the coming antichrist. This is what Satan is very good at...taking the pretty part of the Bible as truth, and then ignoring the other half. It's bullshit, it's warped, it's a pipe-dream, and a misconstrued illogical one at that. Everything's perception huh? Yea, that's rich. All I can say is that you must have one hell of a flexible perception not to be able to recognize an inherent good and evil in this life. On second thought, you must be wearing rose colored glasses

Okay:

* Uh, I haven't been taught anything like that whatsoever by Jesus or in the Bible ....

Neither had the philosophers who, a thousand years ago, planted seeds that would build into ideas, some of which are included (properly by the philosophers' intents) in StarScream's posts. Those wretched philosophers didn't need to be taught it from the Bible; they were trying to figure out the same thing that many of us wonder: What has happened to the House of Christ?

* Or could it be..........SATAN?!?!?!

That line was stale before Carvey left Lorne's house. Here, the appearance of a joke in your first response to StarScream evaporates, not just under the weight of your regression to the Satan Argument, but in your generally condescending tone.

* See guys, this is the religion of the coming antichrist. This is what Satan is very good at

Didn't I say the Satan bit was getting stale?

* It's bullshit, it's warped, it's a pipe-dream, and a misconstrued illogical one at that.

I forget, did I mention condescending?

* On second thought, you must be wearing rose colored glasses

I forget, did I mention condescending?


This isn't something that I take lightly, and shouldn't you know that? Don't you understand how condescending YOU are being by assuming that I'm spewing blind rhetoric just so I don't have to think for crying out loud?


On the one hand, I might actually agree with you, but I think that having endured a year's worth of Satan as your primary argument, compounded with an utter lack of any argument demonstrating the necessity of any Devil in the Universe leaves me with a rather bitter sentiment: if it's really something important to you, why not learn the heritage which has preceeded your faith, which has built the structures against which you compare your faith, which have set the standards by which you measure yourself. What I'm after, if we might invoke for a moment the Crusades, is that regardless of what you believe about Christ, it is inextricably connected with the past. The reason we don't have such atrocities (in general) coming from the Christian quarter in the modern day is that society has learned the danger of genocidal missions and generally tries to prevent them. Furthermore, that part of the Christian heritage which exists between the rape of Constantinople and the present has demonstrated that such strong-arm methods are not the best route to achieving God's will. Certainly, I'm aware that encomienda and prayer towns are something people had to figure out didn't work. I don't fault those times. But if we don't pay attention to the malevolent aspects of our respective heritages, we are likely to repeat them. For instance, had Phyllis Schlafly the capacity in her skull to absorb anything about the relationship between history and catharsis, she might modify her attempt to blanche the culture by constantly petitioning for culturally-restrictive textbooks in public schools. And these devices are not restricted to religious thought. Look at our benevolent drug war, and then think that at least some of the "honest consciences" behind it are secretly smiling at the allegedly unintended result of permanently disenfranchising (directly, as in voting rights) 40% of black males in seven states. Mind you, the mistake made in that allegedly benevolent drug war was, in this case, the direct differentiation between two identical compounds, and which was sold in black neighborhoods as opposed to white. In the United States we pay attention to our triumphs: the Revolution, the Civil War, the Louisiana Purchase, Westward Expansion, &c. ... All the while disregarding the negative aspects of those triumphs: that the Liberty won did not include all; that the African slaves were emancipated as a political move to destabilize the southern economy with absolutely no foresight regarding how to empower that large a section of the culture; that the Purchase trashed the Constitution; that expansion came at the willful murder of 95% of the indigenous population as well as the imprisonment of the remainder.

Do you see what I'm getting at? We never answered the vital American questions "then". We still have not, as evidenced by various conditions existing.

Applied to faith: You're arguing a tenuous argument in Satan. I agree with you that your faith is something you do not--and should not--take lightly. But I feel that you are taking it lightly when your best riposte is that your opponent is Satanic. There's a ton of wonderful philosophy from your own Christian heritage that I've seen you write off as Satanic; I urge you to read about the development of the Trinity; to read the philosophical justifications for the divinity of Christ, which apparently had to be established since it wasn't inherent; to apply history, sociology, psychology, and anthropology to the stories in an attempt to bring yourself closer to the characters in the tale. That you disagree with StarScream's sentiments (or mine or Moon's, or anyone's) is no problem in itself; that, as we know, is the purpose of this forum. I fully believe that much of what you've expressed as your moral center would remain intact were you to respect the heritage of Christian faith; furthermore, I think it would add dimensions to your arguments (say, a second and a third, but that's admittedly sardonic) that don't presently exist in a roll-call that is one name long: Satan. I also think that you might find some of these "Satanic" ideas to be well within a notion of reconciliation to your own faith.

(Let me catch my breath ...)

#2) What is this "the devil has no purpose" thing? Are you making that up? Where in the bible does it describe what Satan is about? Are you kidding? How about all over the place, read it sometime? I don't even know what to say to that??? Do you really want me to go into how he's a fallen angel? Used to be the best of the best? God's right hand man? The fall? And his purpose would be to deceive mankind...not because he gives a rat's ass about us anymore, but just to hurt God. To turn us away...distract us with our flesh, to rationalize idolatry, to blind us so that we never get to know the difference. It's kind of a big topic, but that's a start. I'm just not sure where you're getting this "Satan is made up" thing...maybe you could clarify. And maybe you could clarify the difference between an upper case and lower case s in satan? What in the hell are you talking about? That was a pun!


The Devil is an invention to disoblige God from answering questions about evil. Evil is necessary in the Universe insofar as there is no standard, then, against which to consider good. That is, would you know light if there was no shadow? Would you know dark if there was no light? Just as God pared dark from light, land from sea, life from lifelesness, so did God pare good from evil, and instilled it in a sense of childlike innocence, according to myth.

The Devil must necessarily answer to God. Else one of two conditions arises: 1) That the Devil is not entirely within God's dominion (meaning God is not omniscient), or 2) that the Devil rules/exists in (circle one) regions not governed by God (meaning God is not omnipresent). I ask you this: What part of God's creation exists without God?

Will the Devil be redeemed? If not, why did God create a Devil? Tell me what THE BIBLE says about that.

If the Devil is not redeemed, then redemption is selective; as it is a sin to be without sin, that puts everybody on the trading block.

If the Devil is redeemed, he is merely a stooge to divert attention from God.

Furthermore: How dare we puny humans determine Good and Evil; what we attribute to Evil may well transcend our limited roles in the Universe. Things happen and are bad, but are not offensively evil because we can only measure our own perception of an event. Maybe it was Evil that Kennedy died; maybe it was Evil that MLK died. While I tend to think so, it might be that losing these people enabled our society to take a different, more beneficial evolutionary step, so that when the equation finishes, the martyrs will smile that it wasn't for nothing.

I look at a friend, and would have said it was Evil if her father died in a car wreck before she was born. The flipside is that Daddy didn't die, and she suffered greatly because of him. To confuse that image a little more, without the damage, she would never have descended into the depths of herself and arisen with the ambition to save the world; without the damage, it would have been a while before I learned conscience in the purist form I regard it now; there's no telling how much damage I could have done. From the dead leaves will life arise anew. Tell the people my friend has helped that it's evil because its inspiration is evil. Evil, in this sense, only exists if our primary focus is ourselves in the immediate moment. (As a side note: When I'm wandering the desert, I'll worry about myself in the moment; in the meantime, I live in a culture where such a protective stance is not, in my opinion, necessary.)

Of capitalization of "S" ... it's very simple. Imagine, for a moment, that you have a male child that you have named "Boy". Now, if Flash, say, says, "Look at that boy" (note the "b" in "boy"), she is describing a number of ideas, gender and age being the two primary. But if she says, "Look at that, Boy" she as addressing a person. That's the difference.

I cite Chronicles 21.1, and refer you to the following link for commentary on just this particular issue. http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1chronicles/1chronicles21.htm

I quote the page:


1 A satan rose up against Israel, and he enticed David into taking a census of Israel.


The footnote:


1 A satan: in the parallel passage of 2 Sam 24:1 the Lord's anger. The change in the term reflects the changed theological outlook of postexilic Israel, when evil could no longer be attributed directly to God. At an earlier period the Hebrew word satan ("adversary," or, especially in a court of law, "accuser"), when not used of men, designated an angel who accused men before God (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Zech 3:1-2). Here, as in later Judaism (Wisdom 2:24) and in the New Testament, satan, or the "devil" (from the Greek translation of the word), designates an evil spirit who tempts men to wrongdoing.


There is a difference between "a boy" and "Boy", if you've named your child such. There is a difference between "a satan" and "Satan".

(and now we're back from station identification ....)

#3) You mentioned something about making satan a scapegoat. What are you talking about? How am I making satan a scapegoat? A scapegoat for WHAT?! There is nothing in this conversation that we're having which points to satan as a scapegoat for anything, and I know I'm not imagining that...so again...please, please clarify.

The things we, as humans, choose to find evil are events that take place in the Universe. They are a direct result of the Will of God; they are necessary to the execution of that Will. "Satan" is, simply, a scapegoat. God, having perfect knowledge, could not have failed to forsee the rebellion, be it "Satan" or any other angel who would step up to the task. God knew damn well when he created the angels that "Satan's" behavior would necessarily occur. Some Catholic theologian or another (it's in that Burton book somewhere) described Satan as having his hands and feet bound, and God having pitched him out into the ocean with the explicit command to not get wet. The Muslim account is wonderfully compelling: Al-lah had commanded the angels to prostrate themselves only before His Own Almighty Countenance, and this seemed well enough; Satan's biggest crime in this tale comes from hesitating when ordered to bow before the first Man. His instructions were in conflict, and he happened to take too long to figure it out. Satan is only necessary so that we don't "blame" God for the evils we suffer.

#4) Ok, as for your next paragraph, may I just begin by saying that you are just profoundly wrong in an all encompassing sense. Now for particulars, warding off devils, as you so eloquently put it, is not some knee-jerk reaction of mine when someone's beliefs conflict or confuse mine. Now that IS what you said...that's exactly what you said...do you understand how pathetically demeaning that is? Who cares if you understand. The truth is this, whether you guys like it or not...these beliefs do not confuse me, and I am more familiar with these beliefs than some who claim to believe! As I've said, and it's obvious, this isn't the first time I've heard this stuff. I've read up on it ok? And guess what? Because I AM familiar, and I also AM familiar with what it says about Satan in the bible, THAT is where my conclusions come from, NOT the opposite of that which you are proposing. You act like I'm making this stuff up just to hear myself talk, or just to get on your nerves. I'm not making this up! Satan REALLY does present himself to be beautiful, and loving, and desirable, and peaceful, and he really is a deceiver of mankind, and he really does know how to take what we like about the bible, and smart enough to know what we can't argue with about the bible, and then leave the other half out. That's what you expect me to do. That's what I would HAVE to do in order to buy into the stuff about everything's relative, and there is no right and wrong, and the devils are imaginery.

Enlighten me.

Otherwise, I would ask you then, how often your fixed versions of right and wrong create unintentional opposites?

Then you say something about negros, which, I'm just not even understanding, nor do I wish to...

It's actually very simple: The word negro refers to dark colors--usually black--in various languages. It's a word. But in the United States, the word carries additional weight: malintent, disdain, sentiments of inequality.

Tell me how you love Satan, else I'm left thinking you're insulting Starscream when you attribute his thoughts to that which you disdain, and deem inferior (i.e. "Satan").

After all, it's not particularly apparent that you approve of, agree with, or are endeared to StarScream's philosophies.

Which leads me to HATING and attributing DEVISISH ATTRIBUTES to my fellow chatters, and demeaning their academic and spiritual credibility, and ALL THIS because it's easier than understanding them?

Yes. You demonstrate that you do not understand ideas disparate from your own canon. You show remarkable depth when working with fellow Christians who share a certain number of prerequisite faith assumptions, but in the long run, you're awful willing to whip out Satan instead of demonstrating all the stuff you "read up on, OK?"

#5) You say that everything that I see as evil in this world is according to how my God wants it...and yes, I agree with you. But let me clarify...given the free will that the beings that God created were given, this is how He wants it to be. This is how it has to be, yea, cause He said so, and ya know, He's always right. The whole point is that we have a choice, we had a choice, satan had a choice. Which if I'm not mistaken PROVES that there MUST be a difference, or there would be no choices...a right choice, and a wrong one, a good one, a bad one, one based upon holy intentions, and one based upon malintent. Yea, the fact that we suffer from sin is SUPPOSED to show us that there exists sin. It does me, but that's me?

As this is how God wants it ... why? Oh, that's right ... We Don't Ask That. I mean, what's up with the lemmings? I mean, "Satan" had no choice; in order for the Universe to function properly, as such, God wanted "Satan" as an operating part of it. God directly wills "Satan" any authority "Satan" has in the Universe. "Satan" is a front man, someone to wrestle with as an excuse to not actually address the issues at hand.

#6) As for the notion of Jesus sitting at a bar laughing at us, or me...how do you expect me to take you seriously? What are you trying to do, make it seem like I was boasting about my infinite knowledge of satan? Listen _____, I'm not saying I'm Jesus, ok? I'm not talking about any more of a knowledge base than anyone else with half a brain can't get from the most BASIC messages in the bible. Man, Jesus isn't laughing ok? He's not. It's not funny...you should know that.

Hey-hey ... it's the Jesus I know.

He's been lifted as the light of joy in the Universe, though the Jesus I know is well aware that he's not the whole of that Joy.

If your Jesus is morose, maybe that's what you ask of him?

#7) And for your last comment regarding theology exercising authority...I have a feeling this is your typical "anti-christian power trip" rhetoric...but just to ask...what authority are you referring to Tiassa? Mine? Over whom? Over what? Over nothing, that's what. I can always count on you to totally miss the point can't I? This is what I think...for the record...that satan is the most deceiving being in relation to humans that exists. In your arrogance, you are assuming that I am assuming that for someone to be deceived by satan, that they must be stupid, or disconcerning, or gullable, or intellectually, or spiritually challenged. No, actually, I think that generally, they're intellectually and spiritually enlightened enough to be seekers in the first place, and that's impressive enough to start. See Tiassa, what you're accusing me of believing is contradictory...you say on one hand that I'm glorifying satan by assigning him this ability to deceive, and then you turn around and claim that I'm belittling the spiritual and intellectual capabilities of those he deceives. That's backwards. The better the deceiver that I think he is, the more credibility I give to those who he deceives. If I were to believe that satan had no power, or was just a myth, or was "obviously evil" and recognizable, THEN AND ONLY THEN would I be discounting the credibility of those who are "stupid enough" to be deceived. See my point?

Actually, I'm accusing you of inventing your theology and cosmology to suit your own fancy.

I'm accusing you of being arbitrary.

Sorry about that, but I just can't help it.

Okay, this is long enough. I'll get back to the other part of it later.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)


[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 06, 2000).]

Lori,

"It's not personal...I'm not trying to make it that way. I like you...but I don't like them, and I don't like what they're doing to you. Can that be ok with you?"

Okay, not personal...I can accept that. But when you say you don't like what they're doing to me, can you be more specific? Can you tell me ONE THING they've done that you don't like?

Please don't forget, it was the Goddess that told me to lay off criticizing Jesus and Christianity, that it is "just as right" as my own beliefs. You and I never did get that ironed out whether that was "demonic" behaviour or not, did we? Why on earth would a satan-spawned demon try to bring me closer to loving and understanding Jesus when I was already so far away from even acknowledging Jesus's reality?? It doesn't make sense if She's some kind of demon, does it?

"To say that there is no good or evil, no right or wrong, and that everything is relative, goes directly against the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ. There is just no way around that without the use of some very dark rose colored glasses"

Okay, Lori, but to borrow your own phrase from just above this portion of your post: "Remember, that's YOUR religion, not mine." I don't need to reconcile my beliefs with Jesus's teachings - my cosmic classroom is around the corner, I don't care what Jesus's grading curve looks like, I'm not taking his course, catch my meaning?

"Let me ask you this, because it seems contradictory to me but...How can harm be done, if there is no evil or wrong? What is the definition of harm, if there is no right or wrong?"

Hm, didn't we just go over this somewhere else? I don't have time just now, but if you can find where that is...I can't at the moment. Will come back to it presently.

I thought I'd chime in about the homophobe link I posted. That one generated some serious considerations.

Let me, then, confess that among the sinister considerations of the link's posting, the only one I'll admit to is that I knew darn well how far inside I was throwing. Brushbacks are a compelling tool, often with volatile results.

But I would like to tip my hat to Searcher, who was able to read through rhetoric which I now find to be poor compared to my goal:

I guess that Tiassa's point to you when he brought up the homophobe issue was that the Bible shouldn't be taken as 100% literal truth, and the only people who insist that it is literally 100% true are the same nutty fundamentalist types who believe that homosexuals should be put to death.

I mean, that's it, essentially, on one hand. To the other is the more elusive accusation that to dismiss someone's ideas as warped, misconstrued, bullshit pipe-dreams inspired by Satan is the primary method of those undereducated, less-than-representative "Christians" out there who insist that A) the Bible is to be read literally, and B) their individual interpretation of the Bible is the definitive, literal meaning. Such sentiments lead to the bad situations about which you and I argue so loudly. I wouldn't accuse you of seeing Jesus the same way that Torquemada did, but those two conditions are among the justifications that allowed this individual to perform his murderous, sacred duty under God's commission. Those two conditions are the reason why Lon Mabon is up and befouling the Spirit of Oregon. Those conditions are why idiots like that preacher can sell books about putting gays to death.

Now, in context to the posts in question, at the time, we see your declaration that StarScream is foisting a bullshit, warped pipe-dream, and the all-conclusive declaration that StarScream is of Satan's legions.

So I'll take the exemplary notions out and repost the quote and the questions:


See guys, this is the religion of the coming antichrist. This is what Satan is very good at...taking the pretty part of the Bible as truth, and then ignoring the other half. It's bullshit, it's warped, it's a pipe-dream, and a misconstrued illogical one at that.

Italic portion: What individual doesn't wrestle with issues that amount to taking the "pretty" part over the "ugly" part? (I remind you of Ned Flanders' lament in the "Hurricane Ned" episode of The Simpsons: "I've done all the stuff it says in the Bible, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!" Has Lon Mabon, for example, chosen the pretty part over the ugly part (as he sees it) when he uses his belief in Jesus to construct combinations of text from Leviticus and from St Paul to demonstrate that Jesus said he didn't like buggery?)

Bold portion: According to what?

Oh ... I forgot about that part of your 8/6 post to Searcher:

So no Tiassa, not according to the hate mongers...according to me and according to the bible and according to Jesus and according to the faith which is called christianity.

So, according to Lori ... check. According to faith ... check. Now, according to Jesus, is that based solely on how you read Jesus' words? Hmm ... according to the Bible ... same note: is that based solely on how you read the Bible?

So, according to One Person, One Book, One Alleged Savior in the One Book, and according to Faith ... I'm sorry, but that sounds mighty subjective to me.

Okay, and now I'm going to return to a portion of your Section #7, from 8/5:

See Tiassa, what you're accusing me of believing is contradictory...you say on one hand that I'm glorifying satan by assigning him this ability to deceive, and then you turn around and claim that I'm belittling the spiritual and intellectual capabilities of those he deceives. That's backwards.

Simply: it is merely your opinion that these people are "deceived" by Satan. Again, I remind that I have yet to see any sense of a Universe where the Devil is not either arbitrary or a scapegoat.

That Satan exists, and has so much power that neither jesus nor god can stop Him, is your own faith.

And I wanted to address this portion of the tantrum, from your earlier 8/6 post to Searcher:

So see, Tiassa actually believes that these idiots are practicing christianity, so his point is that if that is christianity, then it's garbage, obviously. Well, my response is the same as it has been for a year now, the gazillionth time over that he's posted this idiotic arguement is that THAT'S NOT CHRISTIANITY...STUPID! That's why I went off, and just told him to f off...he's an f'ing broken record with the crap, and it makes no sense to begin with. He knows, HE HAS TO KNOW, how I feel about that CRAP, and YET, he continues to bring it up!?!?!?!?!?! WHY? It's illogical. Now if his point was....see what happens when people use religion for the wrong intent? For power? See what happens when people who don't understand Christ, nor know Him, nor care to know Him, try to practice "christianity"? See satan at work within organized religion? Maybe if he were to choose some different verses out of the Bible to prove these hate mongers wrong, and said "See, that's not what Jesus said". But he doesn't. He wants to believe that the insane bs IS christianity, therefore supporting his denial of faith in Christ.

But Lori, these are individuals, just like you. Unfortunately, they may be exactly as correct as you; largely, we hope that such idiots as the GodHatesFags, or the OCA, or the Schlaflys or 700-Clubbers of the world are not correct, but we don't get to know until after we're dead, right?

But I hinted at this in another topic somewhere: How do you know that the Jesus you elevate as Redeemer is the same as, say, that dude from the World Church? When you walk through, say, the Clark County Fairgrounds at the annual Jesus Fair, and wave and say "Praise Jesus" or any affirmation of faith, really, are you acknowledging the same Jesus? What about the neo-Nazi who really does believe that Jesus entitles him to crack Jewish skulls? What about the gang-banger with the crucifix tattoo who fears no evil, though he blew away a fifteen year-old in a drive-by last week? What about that snobby post-Victorian wench who wants to see you burn in hell for this or that offense? Are you all worshipping the same Jesus? Think about it: Joe the Christian Nazi believes he can wallop on Jewish people because they're of the Devil (a sentiment that has existed among Christianity since at least 200 CE)? The Jesus that Joe knows likes it when Joe kicks the crap out of a sniveling little kike. Sound like Jesus?

The insanity is, truly, Christianity. The sum effect of millions of Christians acting throughout Western culture is chaotic, and there is no convention about propriety. These individual Christians seem to bear a voters' sentiment of: What good does my single will do? Well, think microcosmically: maybe your assertion to your brother in law (for this example, Joe the Christian Nazi) that his faith is wrong and violates Jesus' will might eventually tame his racist bent, and not only will you have cured the world of one more idiot, you're helping ensure that he doesn't raise your beautiful nephew to be a horrible, hateful racist. You've affected the entire future based on that.

Now, what, then, is so hard about applying that idea more broadly? Great, you don't want to sign Mr Mabon's hateful petition. So you avert your eyes and try not to think about it. Consider what happens, though, when one of these self-absorbed individuals comes out of his or her shell, rails at the signature-collector, and those several "Christians" inbound to sign the petition decide not to because they have a few considerations to make about Jesus' will?

Is it, then, that for every one Christian, per se, who is a "bad seed" in their philosophy, there's a hundred thousand individual "good" Christians who don't care?

It's all well and fine to want a better society, but enough individual "Christians" thinking of their own selves instead of their God have, for centuries, wrought disaster on Western culture. Now, you're not responsible for the firebombings of Brian Moch and Hattie Cohen (by Joe the Anonymous Christian Nazi, in 1992), and nor is Tony or even our friend Pashley. (I'm quite sure it wasn't Flash ....) But the fact remains that Mabon's politics have inspired Christians to murder. Apparently, though, looking at that connection is regarded (by Oregon Christians) as largely -ist.

What, then, are we to think? That Christians are too concerned about their own individual issues to give serious consideration to larger issues? There were (how many?) ATF agents in Waco that day who thought they were doing their job. I applaud them for that, but the fact remains that the event was a miserable disaster that may or may not have scorched the Constitution. Is it Anti-American to decry the death that happened there? (Don't get me wrong, I think Koresh was, uh ... less than acceptable ... but due process is more important to me than bloodlust.)

So we see individuals concerned about various social ills, and contributing their labor and finances to charitable relief, yet never considering that their good Christian neighbors might accidentally be the cause of the problem, but largely because it's Anti-Christian to think that way.

There are places in this country where how a person regards God was initially affected by races between, for example, Baptists and Methodists to construct churches in slum-district apartment buildings, thus exempting the buildings from property taxes. Gee, what happens if little Jimmy's building had gotten a Methodist church instead of a Baptist church?

What, for instance, does the Northern Irish conflict have to do with God, anymore? These are all individual sinners, imperfect humans, indeed. But the best options their faith is giving them is continued trademark imperfection. What was Christian about apartheid? Yet how many individual Christians cowered beneath the threat of losing luxury and thus did not decry the injustice they themselves were sponsoring .... oh, I get it.

See, Lori ... I may not get along the best with Christianity, per se, but I wish the faithful the best because it's all of our world, and I really don't mind the difficulties of being a human being in the year 2000, but it is particularly annoying, as well as disruptive to my community, to watch so many good, individual Christians do unintentional damage simply because it's not nice to talk about Christians that way.

Christianity, as a philosophy, exists. But I'm prone to saying that no Christians have walked since they walked next to him. But so much of it seems arbitrary, and God will never be definitive. Certes, the words are there, but since we're all individuals, and since we're all prone to reading things differently, what is the best way to determine what exactly God meant when he gave this story over to the people?

It's tough, I know. But, for the record, it's one of the reasons I carry no specific faith; I can't see enough of the picture as long as I do.

thanx, I've been at it too long this afternoon,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 07, 2000).]

Mooncat,

Are you a witch? Can you cast spells on people?

Infinity,

Yes, and yes.

Hi Tiassa,

Sorry I've been putting you off. And sorry I can't quote cause I can't remember how to flippin' cut and paste using Satan's latest version of aol. So here goes...

To your first point, which is comparing the fact that I think that people who are visited by spirit beings and are shown a belief (supposed truth) which denies the most very foundational message of the Bible and of Jesus Christ, while perpetuating only the "easy and obvious" parts, those which are basically uncontendable (is that a word?), to absolute idiots who take the Bible "literally" as you say, and monger hate in response....I say there is no comparison. First of all, the message that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is NOT some literal, half-ass interpretation, that some idiot came up with, without giving it any thought. There is NO possible "misinterpretation" of that message, ok? Unless you're a total moron, you can't understand anything about Christianity without understanding who Jesus is. And there is not one place, not one single scripture in the whole Bible, that someone could read, and possibly come to the conclusion that Jesus was just some great guy the same as any one of us, and that yes, boys and girls, one day you can be just like Him. It's just not there. It contradicts the entire foundation of the Bible. And not some "literal" foundation. The most important interpretive foundational message of the Bible is that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God. Anyone who really learns about the Bible, and reads it, and studies it, and prays, and who tries to understand the most basic, foundational messages in it, and doesn't "get" that Jesus is the Christ, the Saviour, the Son of God, just has to be retarded. I'm sorry, but it's true. If you miss THAT point, you need help...it's just not possible. The idea that Starscream is speaking of obliterates the entire Christian faith. And I guess I'm not surprised that those who do not understand Christianity, don't understand how that's true, but believe me, it's true. See, if I were to honestly believe that, that Jesus is our "brother" as Starscream put it, then knowing what I know about the most foundational messages of the Bible, and knowing what I know about the most basic and foundational teachings and practices of the faith, then I would have to argue that the entire Bible is a bunch of trumped up BS that was not to be trusted at all. If I believed what Starscream and pagans do about the identity of Jesus, then I, using my better judgement, would not believe ANYTHING that the Bible says...not even the pretty and fluffy parts. Ok, now on to the hate mongers...You are saying that my "literal" interpretation of the Bible that leads me to believe that Jesus is the Son of God (which I just argued as a ludicrous notion), is the same "literal" interpretation that leads people to murder other people and hate other people? Are you SURE you want to argue that???? How? How can you argue that? Jesus, THE SON OF GOD, didn't ever advocate or teach, or talk about, any such thing. The foundational messages of the Bible are all about love, and humility, and forgiveness, and grace, and it teaches VERY CLEARLY that we are ALL sinners...we are ALL the same inside...which totally obliterates the notion of one human judging another. I would have to argue Tiassa, that the same level of understanding of the faith, and the same source of "intention", or state of mind if you will, would be required to believe either contention, that Jesus is somehow not the Saviour, AND that Jesus somehow perpetuated hate and judgment amongst human beings. There are only two real obvious reasons why anyone would believe either such thing, that is either they don't understand the faith in it's most foundational and basic sense, and/or they're pretty stupid. I mean, you say that this hate monger mentality, this holier than thou judgmentalism, is a justifiable, rational, logical interpretation of the Bible, just like the notion that Jesus is not the Son of God is a justifiable, rational, logical interpretation of the Bible, right? By doing that, you're giving credibility to the hate mongers interpretation. Are you trying to argue that we can't all use a little common sense and understanding and thought when interpreting a sacred writing? I think that's BS, I'm sorry. You know as well as I do that everyone's interpretation of things in this world are not equally significant or correct or even logical. It's like you're trying to pretend that there exist no stupid, egotistical, selfish, hateful, lazy, spoon fed, brain washed people in this world, and I happen to know you're wrong about that, and so do you. I'd bet my IQ is higher than the combined IQ's of an entire "God Hates Fags" picket line...what do you think? You know Tiassa, you're so obviously intelligent, and well read, and very good at interpreting literature. So what's your problem when it comes to the Bible? Mental block? It's just not as difficult to understand as all that. Listen, I don't think that any human being knows the truth, or even a big slice of it, Christian or not. I don't think that any human can possible get all of the truth there is to get out of the Bible, or even straight from the Holy Spirit itself, in the course of a life time, or two, or three, or who knows how many? But that doesn't mean that you can't get any truth out of it, or that there is no truth in it, or that it's all just open to whatever illogical, irrational, contradictory interpretation one care's to associate with it. Can't we use some common sense? Can't we use our brains? Can't we look around us, at our history, as you're always suggesting, at our lives, our planet, our reality, our pain, our suffering, our love, our joy, AND THEN look for meaning in the Bible? I swear to you, that if you do that, you WILL find truth, and you WILL find meaning, and you WILL understand that Jesus IS the Son of God, AND that God does in no way shape or form hate anyone, including fags.

And excuse me, but where are you getting this "Starscream is one of Satan's legions" crapola? Would ya listen to me for once already?? Just because I happen to think that Starscreams BELIEFS are taught and perpetuated by demonic spirits, DOES NOT MEAN that I think Starscream is a demonic spirit, or demonic in any way...or evil, or a bad person, or stupid, or anything bad at all. I think that Starscream is probably as good hearted of a person as me or anyone else, and probably just as smart too. Like I said man, they don't pull out the laser light show for just any old moron...any old moron is easily taken down by some "God hates fags" campaign, get it??? I think that Starscream is being deceived, that's it. And I think that for anyone to argue that it's not a very good possibility is being naive at best.

I'm sorry again...I can't finish right now...I got a JOB finally!!!! I'm going to be a waitress! A waitress!!! I haven't done that in 10 years, and I'm so psyched! Gotta go to work...later, tater.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 14, 2000).]

Lori--

Now ... AOL is something that I will attribute to Satan. Also Rupert Murdoch, the GOP, Charlton Heston, and MLB commish Bud Selig.

Our local City Attorney, one Mark Sidran, might well be the Devil himself.

thanx,
Tiassa ;)

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

I didn't read many of the posts in here. I read a lot in the beginning and skimmed through the rest as it appeared to be bickering and fighting. You can correct me if I am wrong though. With that being said, excuse me if I bring up material already discussed ;)

I just wanted to post a link to a page about the trinit. This is an article I wrote and that is on my webpage. I would have just posted the text here but its all colorized and stuff so it would have been yucky.
www.angelfire.com/co/JesusFreak/trinity.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/co/JesusFreak/trinity.htm)

It shows tht according to jesus and the Bible he was in fact God. So it appears that we have 3 things (the old trilemna pops up again ;)) that we may label him: a liar, a lunatic, or Lord.

Peace,
Vinnie

Mooncat


Can you teach me how?

Infinity,

Yes, I probably could. But no, I probably won't. Before you ask why, answer these:

Why do you want to learn that?

Are you willing to be 100% responsible for your actions?

Vinnie,

I visited your page, but all the text is laid on top of eachother. My browser? Your page?? Dunno, but can't read it.

I did catch you were talking about the trinity however. Here's a site I've posted a couple of times that nobody seems to want to look at. It's co-authored by a Jewish Rabi and basically states that the trinity is an invention added later on.

I'm interested to hear what you think of it. I don't have much vested interest in it, being neither Christian nor Jew, but I find it an interesting twist in a common myth...

<a href="www.geocities.com/Metzad/Notstmnt.htm">clicky, clicky</a>

Yes, I probably could. But no, I probably won't.

So you can for sure??? Have you done it before??? How do you know you could???


Why do you want to learn that?

Umm.... because... I, um, uhhh... bahhhhh. I'm a sheep. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!


Are you willing to be 100% responsible for your actions?
[/B]

Yes I am.

So what spells can you cast?



[This message has been edited by Infinity (edited August 14, 2000).]

ROFLMAO!!!! Hey Infinity, quit being such a spoon fed sheep would ya?! You're beginning to remind me of a "church person"! HA, HA, HA, HA, HA!!!!! :rolleyes: Hypocrit.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Moon, Infinity--

If I might interject and offer a correction to an erratum I have merely perceived. In other words, I might be wrong, so ....
Are you willing to be 100% responsible for your actions?

I would like to rephrase that, especially in light of Infinity's definitive response:

For fuck sakes, yes I am.

I would rephrase the question in one of a couple of ways, as I cannot claim to know entirely by what means myth/ancient principle calculates. Thus, one of the two applies:

* Are you willing to be 300% responsible for your actions? (mild version of Threefold Law)

* Are you willing to be responsible for the sum of your actions to the third power? (more severe interpretation)

I recommend Starhawk's Spiral Dance as a good primer.

I'm of the idea that any spell you believe in, you have the power to cast; this of course, does not take into account setting one's ambitions beyond the scope of their influence.

But ... y'all know me ... I can't let this one go by without sticking in my nose, my two cents, my right foot (while shaking all about), and then some .... ;)

thanx for putting up w/it,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Ok, I'm back...

Tiassa,

You asked "What individual doesn't struggle with taking the pretty part over the ugly part?"...or something like that? Um, the individuals who actually understand the basic foundational teachings of the faith. Individuals who actually work to develop understanding, and apply logic, and aren't just doing it to work a power trip, and actually have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and who are led by the Holy Spirit, and those of us who have half a brain in our heads, and good intentions in our hearts. What exactly is it that is so difficult to understand? What should we be wrestling with exactly? There's good, there's evil, and there's consequences of both...what's so complicated about that? There exists absolute truth and spiritual law, none of which is relative to anything else, which, hello, is LOGICAL based upon EVERYTHING we ALL know about this world through our science and observation. What's so bad about that? Judgement is when we find the truth in our lives. What's so bad about truth? Oh yea, IT'S THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT. That's right... :rolleyes:

And in response to the Simpson's quote...WHAT stuff that contradicts other stuff??!!?!?!? WHAT is so difficult about this? Listen, for anyone who actually applies themselves to understand Christianity as Jesus taught it, the theory just isn't that hard to get a grasp on OK?!?! Shoot, the hard part comes when you try to apply the theory to your life...then you find out how hard it is...and how f'd up you are...and how much you have to learn still.