He ordered the death of infants?

I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 - Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt....Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass....And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.....And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

Hosea 13:16 - Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

He ordered the death of infants?

I'm tempted to say, "And you're surprised?" and leave it at that, but that's hardly helpful. Thus, I can only offer a few summaries of ideas I've picked up from my various time spent trying to learn to worship this particular god-form.

* He killed his enemies; being God, he knows all, including the destinies of his enemies; God knows well that if he does not kill the infant, He will necessarily have to kill the man in later years.

* We must separate the acts of Jesus from the stories of the wicked Jews.

* It's a metaphor.

In other words, there's no good reason for it all, if we limit ourselves to what the one compiled source tells us. But I'm sure any good historian or cultural anthropologist can establish the practical reasons--e.g. economic, familial, customary, &c.--to "justify" the idea academically. That answer, of course, would speak nothing toward the morality. Of course, this God also killed Onan for the crime of coitus interrruptus, though a Lutheran pastor and a Franciscan both explained to me that this incident had more to do with Onan's disobedience, for God had instructed him to have sex with the wife of his dead brother. To the other, I think God also told the wife to dress up like a prostitute and accomplish sexual relations by subterfuge, but I may be combining two separate tales from Genesis.

Anyway, I'm rambling a little now, so I'll stop.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

And the moral of the entire OT...the wages of sin is death. Yes, even for infants, and puppies too. Not the infant's sin, so please don't moronically come back with that idea. All of our sins, or how about the combined and compounded effect of all of humanity's sins throughout history. See, if we (some more than others) weren't so short-sided, we should all have learned something from this moral right? But then gee, I look around and I see little kids getting hit by cars, and parents beating their children to death, and teenagers leaving their babies in dumpsters, and kids being raised in day care centers, and teenagers bringing machine guns to school and blowing their class mates to smithereens, and how many abortions were performed in 1999? Anybody got the stats on that? Guess what? I killed my own child. And guess what? I did it in my denial of God. And guess what? That's the reason that I ended up getting religion. And guess what? EVERYTHING IS NOT RELATIVE.

And you're telling me that you want to blame God for this?!?!?!?! Are you KIDDING??? God is the one who is trying desparately to get it through your thick skull, that the wages of sin is death!!!!! He's the one telling you what sin is, and exactly how bad it is for all of us, and how not to do it! He's offered up a handbook per se (Tiassa). It's called the Bible. (?) He even offers personal instruction, actually that's required. What more do you want? Here...here, I'll list the sins for you...greed, lust, envy, pride, wrath, gluttony, and sloth. THAT IS WHY INNOCENT CHILDREN DIE. Get it? And God doesn't buy into any of that...BUT WE SURE AS HELL DO, DON'T WE? Apparently, that is the nature of our flesh. To destroy our spirit.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).]

Does not the God of the OT punish for four or five generations to come? Do not the sins of the fathers bring God's wrath on the sons?

The wages of sin may be death, but explain that to the children who inherit their fathers' sins.

The most literal interpretations I can think of would be the 20th-century writer HP Lovecraft. HP's dad, Winnfield Scott Lovecraft, liked the ladies. So much so that he would buy their favors. And then he contracted syphilis, allegedly in Chicago, which he brought home, gave to his wife, and hence his son. Winnfield died shortly before HP was born, Susie Lovecraft went crazy, and the sum effect of her insanity was that HP was misogynist, racist, and just about every -ist one could imagine, until syphilis contributed to his death at age 37, in 1935. No more Lovecrafts, ever, from that line.

Is there a moral there?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Oh, and exactly what is the moral of this story? What good came from Yahweh ordering Paul to kill everyone in Amalek, including innocent children? Revenge for Israel? Is your God so petty as kill women and children for the crimes their ancestors committed? To answer that, let’s turn to the bible:

Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Of course, that is direct contradiction to other, probably more important verses:

Exodus 20:5,6 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me…. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

You should recognize this as one of the various sets of 10 commands out of the bible. So which is it? Is your god so petty as to kill innocent babies for the crimes of their parents (and as you suggest, others), or is it just more idiotic biblical contradictions?

“And you're telling me that you want to blame God for this?!?!?!?! Are you KIDDING??? God is the one who is trying desparately to get it through your thick skull, that the wages of sin is death!!!!! He's the one telling you what sin is, and exactly how bad it is for all of us, and how not to do it! He's offered up a handbook per se (Tiassa). It's called the Bible. (?) He even offers personal instruction, actually that's required. What more do you want? Here...here, I'll list the sins for you...greed, lust, envy, pride, wrath, gluttony, and sloth. THAT IS WHY INNOCENT CHILDREN DIE. Get it? And God doesn't buy into any of that...BUT WE SURE AS HELL DO, DON'T WE? Apparently, that is the nature of our flesh. To destroy our spirit.”

You added this after I posted my message, so I’ll respond to it also.

Yes, I want to blame Yahweh FOR HIS OWN ORDERS. If the president ordered the army to kill innocent babies, wouldn’t you look at the president like he is a madman? And if I remember correctly, those seven deadly sins are never mentioned in the bible, though God probably commits more than a few of them (he even admits to envy, hehe). And I’m not asking why do innocent children die, in fact I’m not asking anything at all. Though, I guess I will now ask, why did your god Yahweh order the deaths of innocent babies?

In fact, God pretty much commits all those deadly sins, except the one you forgot, avarice. Let's take a look shall we?

Pride: How many times did he see "that it was good" in Genesis? It is his own work, he saw that it was good, so he takes pride in his own work.

Wrath: Do I even have to mention the countless accounts of Yahweh acting like a genocidal maniac?

Envy: He even says he is a Jealous god to Moses. Jealousy and envy are basically synonymous.

Lust: The Holy Ghost did impregnate Mary didn't he? Isn't the Holy Ghost part of the trinity? Naughty ole Yahweh.

Gluttony: Why are we here? To worship God? You mean Yahweh created 5 billion people to tell him how great he is?

Sloth: Genesis 2:2 - And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

You mean God, the omnipotent deity, who should be able to create universes at the snap of his fingers, rested? Seems he wouldn't need any rest, I guess he was just kind of slothing around...

Wow Someone, whoever you are, you sure do sound full of pain and anger and bitterness. I'm sorry about that really. I know first hand that's not a fun place to be.

Let me first say that the whole "sins of the father" thing can be summed up pretty simply, if you only have a clue. If a man is to put his earthly father first, and above his Heavenly Father, then he will surely suffer the sins of his earthly father. If he puts his Heavenly Father first, above his earthly father, where He belongs, then he will not suffer the sins of his earthly father, because he will know better. There now, see how easy it all is when you actually use your brain?

And see, that's like just a global suggestion here. I don't know what else to say except that you are soooo not understanding the meaning behind what you're reading of the Bible. If I were to take a guess, it would have to be that's because you really don't want to find meaning in it. You don't understand anything about God. This is generally how it is, if I were to have to sum the whole "sin and death" thing up...God created the universe yes, and it was good, not because He thought so, but because it actually was good. You can't ignore the way physical and natural law works in the universe and on this planet. And spiritual law works the same way. Sin is merely a deviation or perversion or misuse or violation of spiritual law. Now what do we know happens when we deviate or pervert or misuse or violate natural and physical laws? There are consequences right? And they're usually not good right? What usually determines whether the outcome of a manipulation of some law is good or bad? The intentions of the one who is manipulating it, that's what. Let's list them again, shall we...greed, lust, pride, wrath, envy, gluttony, and sloth. Just look at the environment alone, and tell me the effects of these intentions. Hmmm...could it be the DEATH of the planet? Uh, yep. So basically, sin is like spiritual pollution, and it leads to the death of your soul. Get it?

You know, God isn't like some big drill sargent in the sky? So, uh, do you get God bellowing in your ear, commanding you to kill babies alot or what? You're not seeing the big picture at all. You really need to have the right intentions when you read the Bible, and you definately don't. You won't get it unless you really want to get it. That's how faith works. What do you think?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).]

Lori,

Let me first say that the whole "sins of the father" thing can be summed up pretty simply, if you only have a clue. If a man is to put his earthly father first, and above his Heavenly Father, then he will surely suffer the sins of his earthly father. If he puts his Heavenly Father first, above his earthly father, where He belongs, then he will not suffer the sins of his earthly father, because he will know better. There now, see how easy it all is when you actually use your brain?

Does this explain the killing of the infants and pregnant mothers with their unborn children in Someone's OT example? Are you saying that the infants and unborn children had put their earthly fathers first over their "heavenly father", hence their gruesome punishment? And you wonder why I don't fall all over myself to worship your God?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

“Wow Someone, whoever you are, you sure do sound full of pain and anger and bitterness. I'm sorry about that really. I know first hand that's not a fun place to be.”

Wow, you sure do like to make presumptions about people. What anger and pain am I feeling over the non-existence of your ancient Hebrew god? What anger do I feel from the nonsense in your religion’s holy book? Could it be you’re trying to twist around the anger that you feel from my post onto me? It sure seems like you feel sensitive about this subject, you having aborted your child and all (I think that is what you meant when you said, “I killed my own child”).

“Let me first say that the whole "sins of the father" thing can be summed up pretty simply, if you only have a clue. If a man is to put his earthly father first, and above his Heavenly Father, then he will surely suffer the sins of his earthly father. If he puts his Heavenly Father first, above his earthly father, where He belongs, then he will not suffer the sins of his earthly father, because he will know better. There now, see how easy it all is when you actually use your brain?”

I think Searcher pretty much summed up what I would have said, except for the comments you made to me about me not using my brain. Indeed, it seems you’re the one again who is “full of pain and anger and bitterness”. Insulting me is a clear sign of this.

“And see, that's like just a global suggestion here. I don't know what else to say except that you are soooo not understanding the meaning behind what you're reading of the Bible. If I were to take a guess, it would have to be that's because you really don't want to find meaning in it. You don't understand anything about God. This is generally how it is, if I were to have to sum the whole "sin and death" thing up...God created the universe yes, and it was good, not because He thought so, but because it actually was good. You can't ignore the way physical and natural law works in the universe and on this planet. And spiritual law works the same way. Sin is merely a deviation or perversion or misuse or violation of spiritual law. Now what do we know happens when we deviate or pervert or misuse or violate natural and physical laws? There are consequences right? And they're usually not good right? What usually determines whether the outcome of a manipulation of some law is good or bad? The intentions of the one who is manipulating it, that's what. Let's list them again, shall we...greed, lust, pride, wrath, envy, gluttony, and sloth. Just look at the environment alone, and tell me the effects of these intentions. Hmmm...could it be the DEATH of the planet? Uh, yep. So basically, sin is like spiritual pollution, and it leads to the death of your soul. Get it?”

And what authority are you on the bible to tell anyone anything about the hidden meaning behind any verse? If I were to take a guess, it’s because in your mind, whatever god you have dreamed up is perfect in every way, and no matter what the scripture says, your god isn’t like that. It’s a common thing for people to define Yahweh to suit their own purposes, I see it all the time. You’re right, I have no understanding of your interpretation of Yahweh, but I bet my understanding of Yahweh is closer to the ancient Jews understanding of him. And what are you talking about misusing or violating natural laws? Oh, like the law of gravity? I guess you could misuse it and throw yourself over a cliff, but that really isn’t a violation of a misuse of the gravity now is it? And those “spiritual laws” you speak of are basically along the lines of common sense. We don’t need some book to tell us not to kill people or steal, nor do we need some set of sins made by some anonymous person to tell us how would should act. Besides, there is no such thing as a soul, it’s just a concept invented by ancient people to explain why we stop living. It literally means breath. Like how when you die your body looks the same, yet you aren’t breathing, that’s how the concept of souls got started.

“You know, God isn't like some big drill sargent in the sky? So, uh, do you get God bellowing in your ear, commanding you to kill babies alot or what? You're not seeing the big picture at all. You really need to have the right intentions when you read the Bible, and you definately don't. You won't get it unless you really want to get it. That's how faith works. What do you think?”

No, your god Yahweh has never spoken to me. As you said “You won’t get it unless you really want to get it”, proof enough that your religion is a bunch of crap some ancient Jews believed.


John 20:31 - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

[This message has been edited by Someone7 (edited August 21, 2000).]

"He ordered the death of infants?"

[This applies to more than just this quote]

Mind comming up with a source for your epistemology? Explain to me how you know your thoughts correspond to reality. Explain to me why the reaction in your brain that produced the thoughts about God ordering the deaths of babies are different from other chemical reactions like baking soda and water. You think killing babies is wrong. That "thinking" was just a chemical reaction in your brain. Explain to me why the chemical reaction that produces your thoughts can be true or false and be wrong or right. Aren't those reactions just reactions and neither true nor false? How can one chemical reaction be labeled morally bad while the other is not? Aren't both just chemical reactions? Why do you not attach moral questions to stuff like the earth's rotation or bubble gum? Once you come up with a source for your epistemolgy then post its definition of good and bad. Then you can talk about God ordering the death of infants. Until that day comes it would be a lot wiser to not build your house on the sand.

Think of it like this. Two guys are debating God's existence. The one with better evidence and stuff would be considered winning or more on the money as in his material corresponds better with the actual facts or physical reality. Now we have a bottle of pepsi and coke that were shaken up going off at the same time. Would we say one bottle is better than the other or that the pepsi's fizzings correspondd to the actual facts and physical reality better? No we would not. Why do you attach moral and true false claims to human beings? I'll be waitng for your overlying truth.

Peace,
Vinnie

Ignoring the issue outright and asking a question that has only one (or no) answer to suit your purpose of refuting my argument, nice trick, but I’m not buying what you’re selling.

How do I know killing babies is wrong? Are you trying to imply you believe otherwise? Good and bad, right and wrong, these concepts are subjective. The reason I think killing babies is wrong is undoubtedly the same reason why you think it is wrong, whatever the reason may be (this is where you make an argument saying there is no way of knowing what is right or wrong).

I’m not falling for this trick. I’ll talk about Yahweh killing babies knowing full well no one on this forum thinks taking the life of an infant is right (again, this is where you make an argument saying there is no way of knowing what is right and wrong).

Think of it like this. You brain is in a jar, being feed information to make it appear like you’re experiencing real life. Can you really not know you brain isn’t in a jar? No, just like you can’t know anything for certain. Whether or not you, me, Yahweh, Earth, science, etc, etc, actually exist isn’t 100% certain, just like what is good and bad, right and wrong, isn’t 100% certain. It’s a lame argument, just like yours.

Someone7 / Infinity / aaaaaaaaaaaa

Same question different verse, remember?

Or maybe you all just sound way the same????

Go figure?

Allcare

Tony H2o

P.S If your wondering what I'm talking about send me mail and I'll explain.

Vinnie,

Yahweh is like the parent who admonishes his children to do as he says, not as he does. Can you see this? He is the one who supposedly draws all the lines, and then steps over them himself. Who can respect that?

Tony,

I didn't get the impression that Someone is the same as Infinity or aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaa...never has anything to say except "prove it", and has never made any contribution to any discussion that took place here - ever. Infinity sounds like a young kid, and makes the kinds of contributions that kids make when engaged in adult conversations (nothing wrong with being a kid, but kids generally come across on a message board as being, well, kids - not adults). I really don't see Someone's posts in the same light at all. Why do you?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

The sad fact of the matter is that the atrocities and genocides performed 'in the name of God'are not confined to the OT. They are happening right now in Indonesia. A very good and trusted friend of mine has sent me a very long report along with harrowing photographs of his travels and meetings there during August. He had met with a lot of Muslims and got the stories from people actually taking part in this bloodbath.

THE FOLLOWING EXCERPT MAY SHOCK!!!

----They threw grenades into the Mosque injuring most of the four hundred inside. Many were women and children who were there, not only to join in these special prayers, but for safety as well. As the grenades exploded Amrullah leapt out of a window. The Muslims were outnumbered by perhaps as many as twenty to one. As the attackers entered the Mosque they began their gruesome task of butchery.

Helpless, Amrullah witnessed the rape of his younger sister. When the rapist had satisfied himself, he cut off both the girl's breasts. As she lay there, he pierced her through the stomach with a spear. Her husband lay decapitated nearby, and their young child lay cut in half. Alive and screaming, the terrified child had been tossed high into the air inside the Mosque, and as she fell, was cut in two with a samurai sword.

Many men, women and children died this way.

The attackers were of all ages, from young children upwards. Christian women, breasts bared and skirts hoisted around their waists tried to entice Muslim men into forgetting themselves so that their companions could kill the disorientated men without a fight.

Children were tossed into the air and impaled on spears. They were then twirled around and around like rag dolls, some of them still alive. Two heavily pregnant women were slashed open so that their yet unborn children fell to the ground. They were then cut into pieces and bits of their bodies were hurled around the mosque.

Two trucks of pigs were brought in and slaughtered. These too were cut into pieces and thrown around the Mosque and the village. This was designed to create further mental havoc within the Muslim community.----

Yes folks, this is the reality of a 'holy war'.
2000 AD or 2000 BC, what's the difference? The damned message has been written down for posterity and will always be abused or misinterpreted. Didn't God know this was going to happen? Or does he mean it to happen, 'in his name' in 2000? Or is it our fall from grace and unwitting worship of satan (ha ha ha) that forces these otherwise very friendly, single race people to butcher each other one minute and then help each other clear up the mess together the next? Both sides apparently, 'in the name of God'.
It's weird beyond belief but this is a typical example of what happens when the huge majority of people take their (Judeao/Christian/Islamist) religion seriously and do it, 'by the book'.

Oh, this is awful.

I can't...ugh. :(

I will be lighting candles tonight for these poor people, may the Goddess show them the way to their afterlife, whatever it may be, and ease their families' sorrows. :(

Searcher,

Man, what is the malfunction here? This is really, really easy ok, just apply some damn common sense already. GOD DOESN'T KILL BABIES, WE DO!!!!! ISN'T THAT F'ING OBVIOUS ALREADY?????? If we all didn't sin, babies wouldn't ever die, get it? And no, what are you retarded? How in the hell can a baby sin? Or how in the hell can a baby "get saved"? Babies are our innocent victims. What the hell is so difficult to understand about this exactly? Sometimes I swear I'm talking to a brick wall or something? I'm sorry, but honestly, couldn't you all try a little harder? I'm really tired of trying to argue against this type of illogical nonsense. Use your brains people!!!!

And Someone,

Excuse me, but you definately do sound like you're very bitter regarding God, it's kind of obvious, and I'm not quite sure why you're denying it. And why exactly would I be angry over killing my child? Sad, heart-broken, overwhelmingly sorry yes. Does it scare me? Yes. Do I understand how it happened? Yes. A denial of God, that's how. Do you hear me out here blaming God for what I chose to do? No you don't. Why? Because He was screaming in my ear not to do it, that it was wrong, the entire time, and I ignored Him and did it anyway. Do you hear me out here blaming Satan for what I chose to do? No you don't. Why? Because I, and I alone, made that decision, that's why. Free will. Right and wrong. Good and evil. Yea right, everything's f'ing relative...in your pipe dream anyway.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 22, 2000).]

Calm down, Lori .... ;)

I think the issue here is that people assume their right to kill in the name of God Most Merciful because they have literary precedent in their holy books. In the case of the religions of Abraham, this is most definitely true. Fundamentalist violence does not require, and is usually not capable of complex justifications. But the violent fundamentalists do take their holy books very seriously, and as Someone has pointed out, God has ordered His People to kill, and to do so savagely and without remorse.

God says a lot of things.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

"Think of it like this. You brain is in a jar, being feed information to make it appear like you’re experiencing real life. Can you really not know you brain isn’t in a jar? No, just like you can’t know anything for certain. Whether or not you, me, Yahweh, Earth, science, etc, etc, actually exist isn’t 100% certain, just like what is good and bad, right and wrong, isn’t 100% certain. It’s a lame argument, just like yours."

No, mine isn't an appeal to "what ifs." You need to provide a source for your epistemology. My questions were valid. There is absolutely no evidence that my brain is in a jar being fed information. I just can't refute that. The problem with moral dilemnas like the God killing the infants one is that they are highly subjective. We may all think killing babies is wrong but I want you to provide the reason why. You want to call God the baby killing women murdering petty God. Well, with your godly wisdom stand up like a man and explain things. Its kind of like when Job questioned God, God asked him were you there when I made the mountains? Were you there when I formed the seas? Did you stretch out the heavens?

Say, I am someone and I know it is infinitely wrong to kill babies because with my infinite knowledge I posit it to be ifinitely so.

I didn't even provide the "real" answer to the question asked. I didn't sense any sincerity in the questions so I just showed how foundationless these claims really are.

"Ignoring the issue outright and asking a question that has only one (or no) answer to suit your purpose of refuting my argument, nice trick, but I’m not buying what you’re selling."

I'm not selling anything. If you can't provide a source for your epistemology then maybe you shouldn't be appealing to moral arguments which require an overlying truth. If your sincere I will be sincere and genuinely try my best to answer your question. If your not then I will hit your objection in its weakest spot and show how baseless it really is.

"How do I know killing babies is wrong? Are you trying to imply you believe otherwise? Good and bad, right and wrong, these concepts are subjective. The reason I think killing babies is wrong is undoubtedly the same reason why you think it is wrong, whatever the reason may be"

Shoot a baby and shoot a wall. In both scenarios we have forces and chemical reactions at work. In one scenario the wall is shot and the other a baby. Both being composed of atoms. Explain to me how we know human life is important or special.

"(this is where you make an argument saying there is no way of knowing what is right or wrong)."

I didn't say that. When you come up with a source for your epistemology you will be an iron clad theist. Then you should realize that arguing with or disagreeing with the source that provides you with your knowledge is intellectually dishonest and plain out ridiculous. Its sawing off the branch that you are sitting on.

Peace,
Vinnie

But Vinnie--

What if the guy with the better "evidence" has to assume it's all true? That's the problem with two people talking about God--nothing can be established without faith.

Thus, if an atheist comes unprepared to a debate and simply says, "Nothing can be proven about god," while his opponent lays out two-thousand years of documentation .... well, the thing is that you have to believe that documentation to be true. I can pick up a rock and drop it to show you gravity.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

“No, mine isn't an appeal to "what ifs." You need to provide a source for your epistemology. My questions were valid. There is absolutely no evidence that my brain is in a jar being fed information. I just can't refute that. The problem with moral dilemnas like the God killing the infants one is that they are highly subjective. We may all think killing babies is wrong but I want you to provide the reason why. You want to call God the baby killing women murdering petty God. Well, with your godly wisdom stand up like a man and explain things. Its kind of like when Job questioned God, God asked him were you there when I made the mountains? Were you there when I formed the seas? Did you stretch out the heavens?”

I wasn’t showing you that your argument was an appeal to “what ifs”, I was attempting to show you that your question is just as meaningless as that one. What source do you want me to cite in my reasoning that killing babies is wrong? Anything I cite for this moral reasoning can be questioned, because it isn’t a “ground for morality” like your holy book is supposed to be. It’s a question that leads to no where (or conveniently leads to your holy book, in your own reasoning at least), just like “what if” questions. You’re using the subjectivity of these concepts to its fullest, it’s just as lame as using the “what if” questions.

“I'm not selling anything. If you can't provide a source for your epistemology then maybe you shouldn't be appealing to moral arguments which require an overlying truth. If your sincere I will be sincere and genuinely try my best to answer your question. If your not then I will hit your objection in its weakest spot and show how baseless it really is.”

What is an “overlying truth”? How do you know there is a such thing as a “overlying truth” when true and false are just as subjective as good and bad, right and wrong?

“Shoot a baby and shoot a wall. In both scenarios we have forces and chemical reactions at work. In one scenario the wall is shot and the other a baby. Both being composed of atoms. Explain to me how we know human life is important or special.”

In the grand scope of things, human life isn’t special (we are just a just a speck of a speck of a speck of dust in this universe). We know it is wrong because we just do. Chalk it up to evolution. Pack animals don’t kill each other for no good reason because to do so would be bad for the group. Since we are also social animals, it’s probably hardwired into us to not kill each other (or you can believe we got knowledge of good and evil from a couple people eating a piece of fruit, makes no difference to me).

“I didn't say that. When you come up with a source for your epistemology you will be an iron clad theist. Then you should realize that arguing with or disagreeing with the source that provides you with your knowledge is intellectually dishonest and plain out ridiculous. Its sawing off the branch that you are sitting on.”

There is no source of morality (not the type you’re asking me for anyway). Morality is subjective in the extreme. And yes, it will lead continuously to statements asking me for this magical source of morality, because in your mind, without it, there is no way of knowing what is right and wrong.

[This message has been edited by Someone7 (edited August 22, 2000).]

“Man, what is the malfunction here? This is really, really easy ok, just apply some damn common sense already. GOD DOESN'T KILL BABIES, WE DO!!!!! ISN'T THAT F'ING OBVIOUS ALREADY?????? If we all didn't sin, babies wouldn't ever die, get it? And no, what are you retarded? How in the hell can a baby sin? Or how in the hell can a baby "get saved"? Babies are our innocent victims. What the hell is so difficult to understand about this exactly? Sometimes I swear I'm talking to a brick wall or something? I'm sorry, but honestly, couldn't you all try a little harder? I'm really tired of trying to argue against this type of illogical nonsense. Use your brains people!!!!”

Yes, Yahweh never killed any infants outright, but ordering the deaths of them isn’t any better. In fact, Saul didn’t even become king of Israel like Yahweh promised him, because he didn’t kill enough (he spared some of the sheep and oxen). There is no moral to this story, you’re just making one up.

“Excuse me, but you definately do sound like you're very bitter regarding God, it's kind of obvious, and I'm not quite sure why you're denying it. And why exactly would I be angry over killing my child? Sad, heart-broken, overwhelmingly sorry yes. Does it scare me? Yes. Do I understand how it happened? Yes. A denial of God, that's how. Do you hear me out here blaming God for what I chose to do? No you don't. Why? Because He was screaming in my ear not to do it, that it was wrong, the entire time, and I ignored Him and did it anyway. Do you hear me out here blaming Satan for what I chose to do? No you don't. Why? Because I, and I alone, made that decision, that's why. Free will. Right and wrong. Good and evil. Yea right, everything's f'ing relative...in your pipe dream anyway.”

Yes, I’m the one who is angry, yet you’re the one using “f’ing” and insulting people.

Someone--

Yes, I’m the one who is angry, yet you’re the one using “f’ing” and insulting people.

As much as I hate to put it this way: get used to it. After being told that it's her sense of humor enough times, you'll start to believe it. ;)

Remember, the only way to get over a problem is to decide not to have a problem. Or something. I've never understood that, myself, but I'm lazy, fat-headed, and stupid; and occasionally we all get to laugh when she calls me something worse.

I would advise that you ignore her, but I must admit that I can't take that advice myself.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Your not stupid.

Infinity,

Who's not stupid?


Searcher,

Just a hunch, (shrug shoulders)


I think someone got it right when they said it was not God but man who killed. Man who having turned from God and followed his own path will always reap what he sows.

The answer to these questions is far deeper than I have net time to share, later maybe?

Allcare

Tony

Tony--

I think someone got it right when they said it was not God but man who killed.

At its heart, I think you're right, and Lori's right with her assessment. However, many of the people in question, especially as pertains to Someone's topic post, allegedly performed their atrocities not only in the "Name of God", but as per God's orders.

I will not invoke Nuremberg here, except to say that I don't think it's as much an excuse to say, "I was just following orders."

If God ordered you to smite the sinners, to destroy everything they had, to execute their men and women and children ... would you? After all, it's God, and I say that without my usual, grinning sarcasm.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

"At its heart, I think you're right, and Lori's right with her assessment. However, many of the people in question, especially as pertains to Someone's topic post, allegedly performed their atrocities not only in the "Name of God", but as per God's orders."

Yes, some people here are conveniently ignoring the painfully obvious.

Yes, some people here are conveniently ignoring the painfully obvious.

It may have little to do with ignoring. It's a problem we encounter with allegedly literalist interpretations of the Bible. For instance, Lori and I were arguing ... uh, something ... in another topic and I mentioned an old Ned Flanders quote from The Simpsons about contradictions in the Bible. Lori doesn't see them, though I see definite conflicts between the wrathful god of the Jews and the forgiving god that is the modern interpretation of mainstream Christianity. For instance, what was so wrong with forgiveness that the Amalekites had to die?

Think of those who see Jesus foretold by the OT prophets. A Christian often sees Isaiah and others as prophecies of Christ, so that in many Christian churches, Jewish texts such as the prophetic books are part of the Christian glory, thus proving the divine miracle of Jesus. Apparently, the Jews, whose culture wrote and developed these tales, are irrelevant to the actual meaning of the prophetic books.

Are you familiar with Lv. 21:16-ff? When God tells Moses to tell Aaron that none of the priests can be handicapped, for they will (somehow) "profane what I, the Lord, maketh holy." The more liberated, the less conservative, the less literal the interpretation of that passage, the better it is explained. I've seen people back away from the question when a simple answer about priests would do. Or the more complex answer about Jewish superstitions and so forth that barely makes sense.

But it has something to do, I think, with A) reading the Bible "literally", and B) wanting God to be nothing but the good stuff.

I don't think people are ignoring the point, per se, but I would say that I've met people whose theology is so tightly reconciled with itself that the question simply cannot occur to them. (If you've never seen, conceived, or othewise experienced something, how can you describe it? Simply, such paradoxes are impossible to some people.

I'll stop here before I lose what pretense of neutrality I've tried to maintain. I don't know why it happens that way, but I've seen people look past the carrot when they're starving. You can lead a horse to water, but what happens if it can't see the river?

Ok ... darn. See what I mean? Rambling again. :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tab

I think you’ve` hit the nail exactly on the head. 2000BC or 2000AD. It`s all bollocks. We haven’t grown at all! The horrendous atrocities you describe, nauseates me to my very soul, and it is so patently obvious that the whole religious trick is severely flawed and misunderstood.

But your story really brought back an experience and accompanying emotion that I will never forget or deny as the truth for as long as I live. I was a soldier in an religious/political war.(what`s the difference?) After a solid 14-month period of serious training and indoctrination to make me a robotic soldier, I was sent into the battle zone. When we got into our first enemy contact on the front, I remember experiencing a powerful manifestation of truth … as we were the vastly superior force, I found myself in the emotional shoes of the enemy, and for the life of me, I could not shoot at these people. I just lay low and moved with the line, until it was over. Nobody noticed, as the action was intense. I did not doubt then, and I do not doubt know, that I did the right thing. My heart/sprit (not God, His dogma, or the Government applying His dogma) told me the Truth. That taking another life was THE fundamental sin in life. After that I vowed only do defend myself if I needed to, but never to act in an offensive way. In other words I rejected the religious/political indoctrination I was submitted to and acted from the righteousness of my soul. No words can describe the absolute certainty that permeated my body and soul, even under circumstances that threatened my life, that I was acting in the way of Truth. Luckily for me I survived in this fashion without being thrown in the slammer, although I came close on 2 occasions, labelled as a subversive soldier. Today the wheel has turned, the enemy is the new Democratic government, that’s doing a fine job of running the country. So what, at the end of the day is it all about? – religious dogmatic garbage. But the Truth shall set you free!

Mooncat

I note your`e one of the few here who can see past selfish religious dogma, and express warm human compassion to the victims in Tabs horrendous story. Can you imagine how those mothers must have felt, seeing their children die in such an appalling manner. Yup … I sure do have a problem with that particular god.

Take care

Tab,

Thank you for bringing this to light. The story you have shared sickens me to my soul, but it's a story that needs to be told. As a mother, I cannot imagine the horror of living through that day. As a human being, I cannot for the life of me understand man's inhumanity to man, nor can I understand a God who demands it.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Lori,

This is really, really easy ok, just apply some damn common sense already. GOD DOESN'T KILL BABIES, WE DO!!!!! ISN'T THAT F'ING OBVIOUS ALREADY??????

Isn't it equally obvious to you that it was YOUR God who ordered the executions? At least that's what it says in the Bible. Or are you saying that you reject the parts of the Bible that aren't very pretty?

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Stretch,

Thanks for the kind words, that story really got me to the core. I don't care what faith you are, or what your moral beliefs are, I cannot see how massacring whole families, and (shudder) pregnant women could be construed as the "right" thing to do. There is a certain value to life, any life, that ought to be respected and viewed as precious... At least that's my view. I can't blame any particular God for it though, I think it's an example of people getting out of touch with their own basic humanity. Aye, there's a lot in the bible that can, unfortunately, support such views, but it still takes that seperation to make a person capable of such henious acts. Of course, I am of the opinion that the bible is totally flawed, and mankind used "the word of God" to justify all kinds of awful things, which got incorporated as "gods' wishes" in the bible. I always have to keep in mind that history is written by the winners, and I feel the bible is no exception to that.

I can't remember who said it, but the line about "any man's death diminishes me, for I am part of humanity" (or however it precisely goes) has really been sticking out at me lately. These deaths happened in a foreign land, to people I will probably never meet, yet it is my concern as well. Like a ripple in an ocean, it's effects are felt on all shores, even though it may seem invisible. I am kin to every human on this planet, for better or for worse, I can't escape that - nor do I wish to. I think that's perhaps my current lesson - I keep getting that thrust upon me lately, and I'm trying to see beyond my own nose, my own block, my own city, state and country, to discover why this is so blasted important. This story perhaps answered part of that for me.

How much easier is it to vicitimize the "others" to benefit "you and yours"? Like cut-throat corporations that would rather screw the little guy so their stockholders have a few more pennies to rub together rather than make their products/services safer, kinder to the environment, or lower-priced so 'average joe' can get his piece of the pie? Corruption, everywhere. I am trying to make sure I NEVER forget that there is no such thing as "them" and "me" - it's all "us".

Sorry, I'm dragging this off-topic, but this is hitting on something that's been rattling about in my head recently.

Ok wait a minute...nobody's stupid ok? And I am not trying to insult. Someone comes out here, knowing and understanding nothing about the Christian God or Christianity as Jesus taught it, armed with some scripture that he/she totally doesn't understand, and screams "Your God kills babies!!!!" No, uh, that's not insulting at all. Nope, not one little bit. How about instead of stupid, we say ignorant of certain understanding? Better? And as for the f'ing....I'm just going to say that you guys are the biggest bunch of lightweight pussy-boys I've ever met! LMAO! And of course, I mean that affectionately. :)

Ok, now what you're missing here is the perspective of God's "orders". God's "orders" ARE the spiritual law, which He created, which I spoke of in my previous post. If sin is committed, there are effects of said sin. Why? Because God, in His creation of the universe, and in His creation of spiritual laws, COMMANDED it to be so, and IT IS GOOD. It's not like God stood there and actually verbally commanded it like some drill sargent. You're missing the whole point. You're being way, way, way, way, way too elementary about this. You're approaching your understanding of God in the same way that the "God hate fags" people, and spoon fed illiterate church people do. So, Someone, why don't you join a church? Your approach to learning would fit right in.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Ok, now what you're missing here is the perspective of God's "orders". God's "orders" ARE the spiritual law, which He created, which I spoke of in my previous post.

So when the Jews smote kingdoms and killed everything, this was a good thing? (I'm trying not to make the direct association to "it was GOOD", but that leaves me envisioning the Jews as God's executioners, which we know isn't exactly fair.) But if God's orders are spiritual law, and the law of God is good, then so it is that the execution of those laws are in the favorable "conscience" of God. This, I believe, is part of the issue at hand.

thanx,
Tiassa



------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Good point. I see what you're asking. As for my personal perspective on this...I happen to believe that the negative consequences of sin are good. The negative consequences of sin are the only thing that keeps my ass in line. Not because I'm a bad or mean or evil person, but because I'm afraid that without the consequences, we would never know the difference. The whole aspect of sin is not a good or pleasant thing, nor the consequences of it, and that is what I believe is one of the most major points made in the OT. But for sin to exist, like for the good/evil, right/wrong, holy/sinful dichotomy to exist, logically there has to be different effects of a choice between the two. This is where the whole everything's relative arguement breaks apart with me. It's like you want the effects of good intentions to be the same as the effects of bad intentions, and it's just not that way. It's just not. I mean, everything's not relative with scientific laws right? So why in the world would spiritual law be relative? It's just not the way the universe works you know? God hates sin remember? The whole point of the OT? God has tried deparately to teach us...we have the negative consequences of sin in our face 24/7, and yet listen to yourself, listen to others out here...it's all "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil", and then you want to have a hard on about God and how mean He is???? I don't get it at all. It's like you guys just don't want to own up to the responsibility or something. I'm sorry I get so frustrated, but you have to understand, as much as I've suffered, and pondered, and prayed, and thought, and thought, and thought, and searched my soul with the most sincere, and humble, and honest intentions, I know what I'm talking about, and it's just that this concept, this stuff that we're talking about, seems so elementary to me. It wasn't always that way, believe me. But one day, if you're really sincere about knowing God, it will just slap you right in the face, and all of a sudden things just "click", like riding a bike or something. That's why I keep harping on the personal relationship with Jesus thing. It's what it's all about. You can't get faith out of a book...it has to come from your heart. That's where understanding really comes from.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

MoonCat

Thanks ... you`re an ancient soul, and all I can say is "you have got your heart and your soul right" ... and as Jim Morrison said (forgive me) "I want to hear ... the scream of the butterfly ... etc."
I sometimes think it is compassion like yours, that drives the very essence of our cosmos.

And as an aside, with all due respect (I mean that) the Christian response to this thread has been really lame, and uninspiring.

Take care

Take care

Stretch,

Aye, thanks again *tipping my hat*. I do try to keep my head and my heart in line with eachother, call it my "religious duty". :) I forget and screw up a lot too though, I'm not perfect by a loooong shot. ;)

Lori,

I see what you're saying, but I would call it by a different name. You call it 'sin', I call it harm. Causing harm creates drastic repercussions, often much worse than the original harm - us pagan types call that concept "the law of three". Not a law in the sense someone dictated it, but just an observed part of how the world works, like the 'law of gravity'. Your mythology states it was directly dictated by God, in my myths similar circumstances are seen as a natural consequence given our human nature.

Of course, me being the pagan I am, the natural consequences seems to be the only plausible theory, much more likely than God dictating the dispicable slaughter of infants and adults alike. But, to each their own, I won't dispute the accuracy of the "who" because it strikes me as irrelevant - the important thing is the lesson behind the myth. (or historical fact, however you choose to interpret it).

I do wonder the same thing Tiassa asked of Tony though - what would you personally do, Lori, if God demanded you murder a whole town - women, men, children, infants, cats, dogs...the whole enchilada. Would you? Could you? (uh, oh, I'm goin' Dr. Seuss here...)

Tiassa

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think someone got it right when they said it was not God but man who killed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At its heart, I think you're right, and Lori's right with her assessment. However, many of the people in question, especially as pertains to Someone's topic post, allegedly performed their atrocities not only in the "Name of God", but as per God's orders.

If God ordered you to smite the sinners, to destroy everything they had, to execute their men and women and children ... would you? After all, it's God, and I say that without my usual, grinning sarcasm.

Someone7

"At its heart, I think you're right, and Lori's right with her assessment. However, many of the people in question, especially as pertains to Someone's topic post, allegedly performed their atrocities not only in the "Name of God", but as per God's orders."

Yes, some people here are conveniently ignoring the painfully obvious.


Tiassa
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, some people here are conveniently ignoring the painfully obvious.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It may have little to do with ignoring. It's a problem we encounter with allegedly literalist interpretations of the Bible. For instance, Lori and I were arguing ... uh, something ... in another topic and I mentioned an old Ned Flanders quote from The Simpsons about contradictions in the Bible. Lori doesn't see them, though I see definite conflicts between the wrathful god of the Jews and the forgiving god that is the modern interpretation of mainstream Christianity. For instance, what was so wrong with forgiveness that the Amalekites had to die?

Think of those who see Jesus foretold by the OT prophets. A Christian often sees Isaiah and others as prophecies of Christ, so that in many Christian churches, Jewish texts such as the prophetic books are part of the Christian glory, thus proving the divine miracle of Jesus. Apparently, the Jews, whose culture wrote and developed these tales, are irrelevant to the actual meaning of the prophetic books.

Are you familiar with Lv. 21:16-ff? When God tells Moses to tell Aaron that none of the priests can be handicapped, for they will (somehow) "profane what I, the Lord, maketh holy." The more liberated, the less conservative, the less literal the interpretation of that passage, the better it is explained. I've seen people back away from the question when a simple answer about priests would do. Or the more complex answer about Jewish superstitions and so forth that barely makes sense.

But it has something to do, I think, with A) reading the Bible "literally", and B) wanting God to be nothing but the good stuff.

I don't think people are ignoring the point, per se, but I would say that I've met people whose theology is so tightly reconciled with itself that the question simply cannot occur to them. (If you've never seen, conceived, or othewise experienced something, how can you describe it? Simply, such paradoxes are impossible to some people.

I'll stop here before I lose what pretense of neutrality I've tried to maintain. I don't know why it happens that way, but I've seen people look past the carrot when they're starving. You can lead a horse to water, but what happens if it can't see the river?



Stretch

I think you’ve` hit the nail exactly on the head. 2000BC or 2000AD. It`s all bollocks. We haven’t grown at all! The horrendous atrocities you describe, nauseates me to my very soul, and it is so patently obvious that the whole religious trick is severely flawed and misunderstood.

But your story really brought back an experience and accompanying emotion that I will never forget or deny as the truth for as long as I live. I was a soldier in an religious/political war.(what`s the difference?) After a solid 14-month period of serious training and indoctrination to make me a robotic soldier, I was sent into the battle zone. When we got into our first enemy contact on the front, I remember experiencing a powerful manifestation of truth … as we were the vastly superior force, I found myself in the emotional shoes of the enemy, and for the life of me, I could not shoot at these people. I just lay low and moved with the line, until it was over. Nobody noticed, as the action was intense. I did not doubt then, and I do not doubt know, that I did the right thing. My heart/sprit (not God, His dogma, or the Government applying His dogma) told me the Truth. That taking another life was THE fundamental sin in life. After that I vowed only do defend myself if I needed to, but never to act in an offensive way. In other words I rejected the religious/political indoctrination I was submitted to and acted from the righteousness of my soul. No words can describe the absolute certainty that permeated my body and soul, even under circumstances that threatened my life, that I was acting in the way of Truth. Luckily for me I survived in this fashion without being thrown in the slammer, although I came close on 2 occasions, labelled as a subversive soldier. Today the wheel has turned, the enemy is the new Democratic government, that’s doing a fine job of running the country. So what, at the end of the day is it all about? – religious dogmatic garbage. But the Truth shall set you free!

Mooncat

I note your`e one of the few here who can see past selfish religious dogma, and express warm human compassion to the victims in Tabs horrendous story. Can you imagine how those mothers must have felt, seeing their children die in such an appalling manner. Yup … I sure do have a problem with that particular god.

Searcher
Thank you for bringing this to light. The story you have shared sickens me to my soul, but it's a story that needs to be told. As a mother, I cannot imagine the horror of living through that day. As a human being, I cannot for the life of me understand man's inhumanity to man, nor can I understand a God who demands it.

Searcher
Thanks for the kind words, that story really got me to the core. I don't care what faith you are, or what your moral beliefs are, I cannot see how massacring whole families, and (shudder) pregnant women could be construed as the "right" thing to do. There is a certain value to life, any life, that ought to be respected and viewed as precious... At least that's my view. I can't blame any particular God for it though, I think it's an example of people getting out of touch with their own basic humanity. Aye, there's a lot in the bible that can, unfortunately, support such views, but it still takes that seperation to make a person capable of such henious acts. Of course, I am of the opinion that the bible is totally flawed, and mankind used "the word of God" to justify all kinds of awful things, which got incorporated as "gods' wishes" in the bible. I always have to keep in mind that history is written by the winners, and I feel the bible is no exception to that.

I can't remember who said it, but the line about "any man's death diminishes me, for I am part of humanity" (or however it precisely goes) has really been sticking out at me lately. These deaths happened in a foreign land, to people I will probably never meet, yet it is my concern as well. Like a ripple in an ocean, it's effects are felt on all shores, even though it may seem invisible. I am kin to every human on this planet, for better or for worse, I can't escape that - nor do I wish to. I think that's perhaps my current lesson - I keep getting that thrust upon me lately, and I'm trying to see beyond my own nose, my own block, my own city, state and country, to discover why this is so blasted important. This story perhaps answered part of that for me.

How much easier is it to vicitimize the "others" to benefit "you and yours"? Like cut-throat corporations that would rather screw the little guy so their stockholders have a few more pennies to rub together rather than make their products/services safer, kinder to the environment, or lower-priced so 'average joe' can get his piece of the pie? Corruption, everywhere. I am trying to make sure I NEVER forget that there is no such thing as "them" and "me" - it's all "us".

Sorry, I'm dragging this off-topic, but this is hitting on something that's been rattling about in my head recently.


Lori
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok wait a minute...nobody's stupid ok? And I am not trying to insult. Someone comes out here, knowing and understanding nothing about the Christian God or Christianity as Jesus taught it, armed with some scripture that he/she totally doesn't understand, and screams "Your God kills babies!!!!" No, uh, that's not insulting at all. Nope, not one little bit. How about instead of stupid, we say ignorant of certain understanding? Better? And as for the f'ing....I'm just going to say that you guys are the biggest bunch of lightweight pussy-boys I've ever met! LMAO! And of course, I mean that affectionately.
Ok, now what you're missing here is the perspective of God's "orders". God's "orders" ARE the spiritual law, which He created, which I spoke of in my previous post. If sin is committed, there are effects of said sin. Why? Because God, in His creation of the universe, and in His creation of spiritual laws, COMMANDED it to be so, and IT IS GOOD. It's not like God stood there and actually verbally commanded it like some drill sargent. You're missing the whole point. You're being way, way, way, way, way too elementary about this. You're approaching your understanding of God in the same way that the "God hate fags" people, and spoon fed illiterate church people do. So, Someone, why don't you join a church? Your approach to learning would fit right in.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.



tiassa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, now what you're missing here is the perspective of God's "orders". God's "orders" ARE the spiritual law, which He created, which I spoke of in my previous post.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So when the Jews smote kingdoms and killed everything, this was a good thing? (I'm trying not to make the direct association to "it was GOOD", but that leaves me envisioning the Jews as God's executioners, which we know isn't exactly fair.) But if God's orders are spiritual law, and the law of God is good, then so it is that the execution of those laws are in the favorable "conscience" of God. This, I believe, is part of the issue at hand.

thanx,
Tiassa


------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)



Lori
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point. I see what you're asking. As for my personal perspective on this...I happen to believe that the negative consequences of sin are good. The negative consequences of sin are the only thing that keeps my ass in line. Not because I'm a bad or mean or evil person, but because I'm afraid that without the consequences, we would never know the difference. The whole aspect of sin is not a good or pleasant thing, nor the consequences of it, and that is what I believe is one of the most major points made in the OT. But for sin to exist, like for the good/evil, right/wrong, holy/sinful dichotomy to exist, logically there has to be different effects of a choice between the two. This is where the whole everything's relative arguement breaks apart with me. It's like you want the effects of good intentions to be the same as the effects of bad intentions, and it's just not that way. It's just not. I mean, everything's not relative with scientific laws right? So why in the world would spiritual law be relative? It'
s just not the way the universe works you know? God hates sin remember? The whole point of the OT? God has tried deparately to teach us...we have the negative consequences of sin in our face 24/7, and yet listen to yourself, listen to others out here...it's all "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil", and then you want to have a hard on about God and how mean He is???? I don't get it at all. It's like you guys just don't want to own up to the responsibility or something. I'm sorry I get so frustrated, but you have to understand, as much as I've suffered, and pondered, and prayed, and thought, and thought, and thought, and searched my soul with the most sincere, and humble, and honest intentions, I know what I'm talking about, and it's just that this concept, this stuff that we're talking about, seems so elementary to me. It wasn't always that way, believe me. But one day, if you're really sincere about knowing God, it will just slap you right in the face, and all of a sudden things just "click", like ridin
g a bike or something. That's why I keep harping on the personal relationship with Jesus thing. It's what it's all about. You can't get faith out of a book...it has to come from your heart. That's where understanding really comes from.
------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.



Stretch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MoonCat
Thanks ... you`re an ancient soul, and all I can say is "you have got your heart and your soul right" ... and as Jim Morrison said (forgive me) "I want to hear ... the scream of the butterfly ... etc."
I sometimes think it is compassion like yours, that drives the very essence of our cosmos.

And as an aside, with all due respect (I mean that) the Christian response to this thread has been really lame, and uninspiring.

Take care



MoonCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stretch,
Aye, thanks again *tipping my hat*. I do try to keep my head and my heart in line with eachother, call it my "religious duty". I forget and screw up a lot too though, I'm not perfect by a loooong shot.

Lori,

I see what you're saying, but I would call it by a different name. You call it 'sin', I call it harm. Causing harm creates drastic repercussions, often much worse than the original harm - us pagan types call that concept "the law of three". Not a law in the sense someone dictated it, but just an observed part of how the world works, like the 'law of gravity'. Your mythology states it was directly dictated by God, in my myths similar circumstances are seen as a natural consequence given our human nature.

Of course, me being the pagan I am, the natural consequences seems to be the only plausible theory, much more likely than God dictating the dispicable slaughter of infants and adults alike. But, to each their own, I won't dispute the accuracy of the "who" because it strikes me as irrelevant - the important thing is the lesson behind the myth. (or historical fact, however you choose to interpret it).

I do wonder the same thing Tiassa asked of Tony though - what would you personally do, Lori, if God demanded you murder a whole town - women, men, children, infants, cats, dogs...the whole enchilada. Would you? Could you? (uh, oh, I'm goin' Dr. Seuss here...)



Hi Everyone,

Well we are all fairly seasoned veterans here, we have all or most of us been around this place to see the same questions being asked time and again. They may have differing references to versus or quotes but the fundamental question I see time and again is why?

Why does God order babies killed?

Why does God decide that women and children should be destroyed?

Why does God in the OT appear so barbaric and unforgiving when compared to the Jesus of the NT?

And I sincerely appreciate the fact that people are sick and tired of the cheap lolly pop answers.

Because God is God and can do what He wants..................part right, but wrong!

Because God didn't do it but men did.................part right, but wrong!

Because God created man He can destroy him...............part right, but wrong!


People, I am going to stretch myself further than I have before and try to give some valid understanding of these things. I'll try not to get lost in the sea of my own thoughts, but at the same time I know in trying to do this I will fall short.

Most here know me to a degree, most here have seen the things I have said in the part both right and wrong. Most here have heard me say time and again that I ask God hard questions, me a mere mortal, what right do I have to demand answers of the God I love and trust? These very questions are the ones that swirl through my heart and mind while I lay in my bed at night. These are the very things that I seek to try to understand, try to comprehend in the light of my understanding of my Lord and God, in the light of trying to place myself in the very shoes of every individual I see in my minds eye, in the light of the social, political, religious and historical context that they occurred in. But alas my mind is dull, and no sooner than a glimmer of hope, no sooner than a knowing of the answer it evaporates and I drift off into oblivious sleep, waking in the morn with my mind madly and in futility trying to piece together the moments before slumber. That one moment, that instant of knowing, the thoughts that were strung together and gave me the understanding and knowledge that my God had heard my hearts cry. That moment when all the turmoil of my daily life was quietened enough for Him to speak directly to me, and for me to hear. And so I struggle, knowing but not knowing how to verbalise the knowing. And so I attempt to piece together the fleeting thoughts that flood my heart and mind as slumber encompasses me and as I whisper my prayer, my Lord, my God, my King, I love you.

And the question remains when my mind is alert, why? Lord for what purpose? For what part of you have I not seen? My prayer is to know you yet the very fabric I am made of is so far from you. What barriers still exist between us that I should struggle so? What is there within me that causes my understanding to be so dull? What is it that drives me, even us to seek the answers to seemingly unanswerable questions? Why Lord? Why? Like many of you I also have cried out for the answers, but different from some I still love my God the God who's name is slandered, who's ways are not understood, who men want to call into account.

Why do we not understand?

Why do we not see who He is and why He does what He does?

Why do we call Him, our creator into account?

By what right do I do this, what right do I have to assault His very name, to almost demand an answer?

People, we are not so very different from each other, are we?

And an answer came to me, an answer that.... well I may have looked on as a simplistic answer, as a answer that held no depth, as an answer that did not necessarily reveal to me that which I wanted and expected. A greater revelation of Him, a greater understanding of His very character and nature, a closer walk, a deeper love.

That is until I stopped and considered the very impact of the answer. That being the answer surrounds us and confronts us every day, it drives us to Him or it shys us away from Him, it confronts the very person we are and it calls into account the very things that we do. The answer is timeless through to creation, it has caused us every pain we have know and is as entwined in our lives as the blood in our veins. It appears as a lollipop answer until such time as proper thought and consideration is given it, something that does not happen because we as humans shy away from the very act of admitting it and from the very fact of its existence. This answer that I speak of is the very key to understanding why? But without acknowledgment of its existence we will never understand why? Without the very act of it and the effect of it that ripples down through time as we know it, without an understanding of its origins and its originator, without these things we will continually discuss in ever decreasing circles the very acts that occur as a result of it. Acts that are clouded in sometimes vague and one sided accounts, acts that are carried out in the name of the one that is being served. Without understanding the very root cause, without acknowledgment of it, without this the events that have transpired and the very reason they transpired will be viewed never be viewed the same.

I have chosen to see this answer, I have and can make sense of these things when I consider the full context of what was being historically played out.

When doing so it brings me very much back to the very point that Tiassa and I once discussed in "Piers B and sundry mumbling" and from that point I and understanding I move forward into an understanding of why. From the point of understanding the who I see the why, from the point of seeing the why I understand the words spoken by Jesus "But he was a liar from the beginning" "the devil come to lie, kill and destroy, but I have come to give life".

The simple answer is sin. The complex questions are its origins and its effects on mankind throughout history. The complexity increases with our denial of it, increases with our understanding of it and its origins, of our knowledge of its effects that trickle down through time and effect seemingly innocent lives. A cancer to our existence, a disease without a cure that would surely result in the total destruction of humanity had it not been that God choose otherwise. With acknowledgment of it, without understanding its grip on us, without seeing that we have fallen and that because each of us, yes even the greatest have fallen short we will never truly understand or see the injustice caused by it. We will continually look to place blame and fault at the feet of another, one who in one breath we choose to not believe in then in the next we choose to call into account for the misery of mankind. Sound familiar?

People, I will not claim to understand the exact reason why God said destroy them, cut them off from the face of the earth, each and everyone of them. I will not claim to know the exact reasons for the actions taken, I have not studied the settings, I have not weighed the facts, I have not considered all things and I as a man who is flawed may not even come to the same conclusions as God did knowing all these things. But this I do know, that my God will call this answer into account, He will bring it before himself and those through whom it was committed to give account of their actions. My God is just and right and He will weigh all factors into His judgement. I know that my God is slow to anger and gives every opportunity for a person, a people, a race, a nation to turn from their own justification, to turn from the very answer they choose to ignore, He will with hold His hand for as long as He can before the cries of the innocent that have fallen because of sin assault His very mercy and love in their cries for justice.

It is a disease that has become so entwined in our lives that we barely see it anymore. It is a curse that has a flow on effect that results in final judgement. The Apostle Paul spoke of how the law that shows us the standard of God has become a curse due to its revealing of sin, that sin is called into account because of the law. He understood that sin was an incestuous thing that clung to us because of our history and it origin, of how it causes us to do the things that we don't want to do and stops us from doing the things we know we should do. Wretched man that I am he cried, who will save me? Praise be to the lamb of God who has conquered sin and death, his name is Jesus Christ.

Do you see what I am saying or trying to show you? In the OT God had to allow for the law to be the revelation of His person. And accordingly the law called sin into account, the law was to be held to and adhered and all that transgressed it were called into God's judgement, each person, each people group, each race and every nation. This was required to show the nations that the Lord God of Israel was a Holy God. The Lord God of Israel was the true God and that when a nation of people be it either Israel, Judah or another placed their trust in Him and followed in the Law of the Lord then none could stand before them or their mission. That mission being to bring this knowledge, the knowledge of the Lord, the ways of the Lord to the nations. And for this reason we see what we see recorded within the pages of the account, the bible. Do you think that God took pleasure in the destruction of people? Do you think He gloried in their demise? You would be right and wrong, there would be a satisfaction in Gods heart that evil had been quelled, but the satisfaction of this would be overwhelmed by the grief of loss, loss because the people failed to acknowledge the answer, the reason for their judgement. Sadness and sorrow because they had chosen to follow false god's that lead them to be a selfish race, a hardened heart and a barbaric nation. The Lord my God took no pleasure in the judgement placed bar that of seeing unrighteousness and evil halted. Judgement that was required and is required when this disease abounds, the disease of sin. Sin which is revealed by the law and which will be judged by it upon every life that has lived lest that life be found to be covered by His grace.

God has foreseen the state of mankind, He had to allow history to be played out so that sin could be seen for what it is, so that the nations could bear witness to the very reason that judgement was passed through the law. And in His knowing this, even before time began God placed into effect a plan, a plan that would unfold throughout history, a plan that would be shown in the very establishment of the law and would result in its fulfilment by bearing the curse of it. This plan will restore, it will renew, it will fulfil all that the law could not. The law was given for sin to be shown for what it is, and for the originator of it to be shown for who he is. Grace was and is given because without grace we are eternally lost, without God's gift of grace none of us can meet the burden of the law, not that we should take this grace for granted, not that we should not still try to live according to the morality of the law, but this grace was given because we have fallen short of the whole of the law. An in this grace we can pass through judgement by the law because the bearer and giver of this grace has taken the curse of the law upon His shoulders and in doing so as a flawless and sinless man has conquered the curse of the law which is judgement and death. This man being the Lord Jesus Christ. For there is none other, not one who could claim this, me, you, the greatest people through history have all fallen short and missed the mark, we have all been affected by the answer to the pain, sin.

God, my God in His infinite wisdom and knowledge conceived of this very plan for restoring mankind to Himself before mankind even became infected by the disease of sin. In doing so He never once transgressed any trait, and part of His character or nature that He alone lives true to. In doing so He the Lord of all Glory broke down and destroyed the works of the evil one, he was confounded and confused by his own delusions.

Jesus rose again, death could not hold Him down and He arose. The evil ones plan of destroying Jesus backfired, he chose to destroy an innocent man and in doing so the evil one failed to realise that the very reason for bringing Jesus to the cross was for the forgiveness of sin through the burden of the law being placed on an innocent sacrifice.

So why?

Why the death?

Why the destruction?

Why? Because sin is called into judgement by the law and word of God. That judgement is not always the way the God would emotionally choose to act, but He must act in accordance with the attributes of His character and nature that call sin into account and bear the emotional burden that results.

The answer is sin, we either choose to believe it or we choose to ignore it. Either way it catches up with us one day when we have to account for it.

Allcare

Tony H2o

"I was attempting to show you that your question is just as meaningless as that one."

Your attempt failed.

"What source do you want me to cite in my reasoning that killing babies is wrong?"

You made the claim. Substantiate it.

Anything I cite for this moral reasoning can be questioned, because it isn’t a “ground for morality” like your holy book is supposed to be. It’s a question that leads to no where (or conveniently leads to your holy book, in your own reasoning at least), just like “what if” questions. You’re using the subjectivity of these concepts to its fullest, it’s just as lame as using the “what if” questions."

Lame? If you can't provide a source for your epistemology then don't appeal to moral arguments. The problem with this is that in order to appeal to a moral argument you must claim infinite knowledge. You can chalk it up to evolution if you like but you still have the epistemology problem.

"What is an “overlying truth”? How do you know there is a such thing as a “overlying truth” when true and false are just as subjective as good and bad, right and wrong?"

The Bible. Any attempt tp discredit logic must use logic to discredit it. Our thoughts do correspond to reality. This has been shown over and over again. Atheists just have trouble finding a source for knowledge. The problem is you can't use moral arguments because you can't substantiate any of your moral premises.

"We know it is wrong because we just do."

I hope you don't speak for all atheists when you say stuff like that. I know the Bible is God's word. Why? Well I just do.

"Chalk it up to evolution."

Are we assuming macro-evolution as a fact?

"Pack animals don’t kill each other for no good reason because to do so would be bad for the group."

Would you mind defining bad? Or does bad mean "hindering life" in this scenario? Atheism tend to make up new meanings of words to suit their needs.

"Since we are also social animals, it’s probably hardwired into us to not kill each other "

he Bible says God "hardwired" his laws onto our hearts. At least Christians have a source for their epistemology. Much more plausible than saying we know so because we just do.

"(or you can believe we got knowledge of good and evil from a couple people eating a piece of fruit, makes no difference to me)."

You might want to restudy the fall. If they didn't know of good and evil how could they be held accountable for eating the fruit. Not totally sure but I think you have to dig deep on that one.

"Morality is subjective in the extreme."

And what does that tell you about this entire thread? Its subjective in the extreme. Thats given an atheistic worldview of course.

"And yes, it will lead continuously to statements asking me for this magical source of morality, because in your mind, without it, there is no way of knowing what is right and wrong."

And in your mind we know this because we just do.

"Thus, if an atheist comes unprepared to a debate and simply says, "Nothing can be proven about god," while his opponent lays out two-thousand years of documentation .... well, the thing is that you have to believe that documentation to be true. I can pick up a rock and drop it to show you gravity."

You can test that documentation as well. Is there reasonable ground to accept/reject it. Paul admonishes us to test everything and to hold on to that which is good.

There is a much better answer to the original question asked in this thread. I am sorry, I didn't see it as a sincere question. More like an attack on my petty women killing baby murdering God who I love more than anything else in the entire world and is the source of my love. Its an insult to me and most other Christians. A person honestly asking how could a loving God possibly do that or someone just wanting to discuss the issue is different. But when your not sincere and "attacking' I, as I said, will hit your stuff in its weakest spot. I am sorry you all had to see this type of answer from me.

Peace,
Vinnie

Tiassa,

Killing, in the OT, wasn't looked upon as a good thing was it? To me personally, the OT depicts exactly how important Jesus is as our Saviour, and what exactly we're being saved from, and exactly how devastingly destructive sin is. And yes, God "commanded" that to be so, as inherent in spiritual law...the laws of the universe. But you know how it is that there is always a dichotomy? For there to be light, there is dark...for there to be good, there is evil...for there to be life, there is death. The dark side is a necessary, or "truthful" alternative to the light, but it is not a necessary choice. The light, and the good, perpetuate eternal life, and balance in the universe...and the dark, the evil, perpetuates death and destruction. Yes, God "commanded" this to be so. Before Jesus Christ came and offerred up the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, things were different here. I'm grateful...eternally grateful, for the relationship that I have with Him. He makes all the stuff that confuses you guys make perfect sense to me. Knowing Him is like an epiphany, after epiphany, after epiphany...am I spelling that right? LOL!

Tiassa, you keep confusing me about the "talking to Jesus" thing. First you said that you talked to Him and you had this "understanding", which I was thrilled about. Then when I called you on it, you're all like, "well it could have been a halucination or a dream or whatever". Now, somewhere in here, you're back to the "I've talked to Jesus, did you forget?" So once and for all, for my sanity's sake, and so I know what the f I'm dealing with once and for all...could you please just make a decision, and let me know if you know Him or not? If you do, you'll know for sure, so...what's the deal? You tell me. It's almost like you want me to tell you? Sorry, can't do that...

Mooncat,

You act like that would be such an easy question to answer, like all cut and dry and black and white. First of all, if I ever got the "notion" to kill anyone, it would have to be in defense of someone else or myself, and I still wouldn't want to do it...it wouldn't be something "good". See, Jesus doesn't pop down for a prance with me every now and again like your "gods" do. He doesn't miraculously appear to me and bark orders. The closest thing I've gotten to an order is to write a book about the alien thing. If God ever placed in on my heart to kill, I would question it. Thou shalt not kill remember? I wouldn't ever question Him, but I would question whether the message was from Him. The fact is that God would never "instruct" me to kill anyone. But would I kill someone if that's what He wanted? Yes. Why? Not because He barked some order at me, but because He sent me in the path of someone who I would end up killing in defense, or by accident, or I don't know how...and I would probably not be aware of "God's commands". The whole world is "God's commands"...the whole universe and everything that happens in it...bad or good. Just always remember that good is an option all the time...and the bad is chosen, not by Him, but by us. He created the law and the consequences of it, which are perfect, which is what the Bible means by "good", and gave us free will. If the OT is actual history, then it's apparent that things were very different before Jesus came. That redemption wasn't so easy. The OT is harsh and difficult for me to relate to too, but everytime I hear the same scripture that you hear, all I can think of is how incredible God's grace is. And you think the opposite...that He's hateful. I just don't think you understand the meaning behind the message.

And how is it that his "law of threes" came about exactly? It sounds extremely arbitrary to me. Like somebody thought it just sounded kind of cool when they pulled it out of their rear. :)



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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

To the christains....

If you found yourself fighting on the side of christainity in the account described by Tab, how many of you would have taken part???

To the christains....
If you found yourself fighting on the side of christainity in the account described by Tab, how many of you would have taken part???


Matthew 26:
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Mark 14:
47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

Luke 22:
49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

John 18:
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?


So many things done in His name, so many things said in His name, so many things claimed and so many things destroyed.....in His name.

When in reality it was never Him who instructed them.

We reap what we sow, we sow kindness and compassion then such shall we reap, we sow anger and arrogance then such shall we reap.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

http://www.inspired-tech.com/dovebar1.gif

I don't know if this question has been addressed in this thread already, but isn't it possible that, since so little of the bible is claimed as a first-hand account, that the people who slaughtered the innocent ones used god as a convenient justification for their actions? Must we assume that when entire nations were warred against that it was because god had told them to, and no political reasons were involved? Given that these people seemed to follow almost blindly whatever the priests said, isn't it possible that the priests were using the people's willingness to believe in order to further their own political and military aims?

In short, couldn't the guys who said "God said for us to..." have been lying?

Like the old song says, "People are people..."

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited August 24, 2000).]

Lori,

Why do you think I was acting like that would be an easy answer? I'd hope it wasn't, if it were I'd be a bit afraid for you.

You dodged the question, more or less. I'm not talking about self defense, I'm talking about God/Jesus, in whatever form he would take so you'd know it was him, telling you specifically, "Lori, the Smiths across the street from you are evil, in league with Satan, and must be removed. I order you to march across the street with this butcher knife and slay them while they sleep; mother, father, daughter, and unborn baby, for the good of the Christian people." Farfetched, sure, but really, what would you do? Does this answer still apply:? "But would I kill someone if that's what He wanted? Yes. " You don't have to answer right away if you need to ponder it, I'm not trying to trick you or something.

"See, Jesus doesn't pop down for a prance with me every now and again like your "gods" do"

I'm sorry to hear that. I bet he's a great dancer. Maybe next time my Lord & Lady visit, I can ask them to bring him along. :D Actually, they haven't stopped by recently. Perhaps that's a sign I'm on the right track at the moment. And if you're trying to annoy/insult me with that line, it's not gonna work, toots.

"The OT is harsh and difficult for me to relate to too, but everytime I hear the same scripture that you hear, all I can think of is how incredible God's grace is. And you think the opposite...that He's hateful. I just don't think you understand the meaning behind the message."

Actually, you've got me wrong here. I don't think that way, not anymore, not since my Lady put my head on straight some months ago. My feeling is that it's humans using the "word of God" to justify their own agendas, just like in Tab's awful story. (kind of what Oxygen was getting at, I believe) I doubt any God had anything to do with that slaughter. A flood or an earthquake or a plague, that seems more like what a God would do, instead of roping the locals into his dirty work.

"And how is it that his "law of threes" came about exactly? It sounds extremely arbitrary to me. Like somebody thought it just sounded kind of cool when they pulled it out of their rear."

Firstly, "his" who?? It came about because that's what people observed. It's generally recognized (amongst the pagan community, that is) that the actual quantitative amount of karmic backlash is impossible to guage accurately, so the "law of threes" is used as an accepted "working theory" - it is not precise by any means, but it is no less real. If you honestly think about it, I bet you'll see it in your own life as well.

Originally posted by Oxygen:
I don't know if this question has been addressed in this thread already, but isn't it possible that, since so little of the bible is claimed as a first-hand account, that the people who slaughtered the innocent ones used god as a convenient justification for their actions? Must we assume that when entire nations were warred against that it was because god had told them to, and no political reasons were involved? Given that these people seemed to follow almost blindly whatever the priests said, isn't it possible that the priests were using the people's willingness to believe in order to further their own political and military aims?

In short, couldn't the guys who said "God said for us to..." have been lying?).]


Of course they were lying. It's like all the shit going down in Indonesia at the moment, d'you think God is actually telling the Christians to butcher the Muslims or vice versa? Of course not, the truth of the matter is that there happen to be vast foreign (Western) financial concerns that wish to carve up the country for their own benefit and with the aid and assistance of the Sultan and the whole corrupt establishment are using the auspices of a holy war to change the demography in order to suit their own purposes.

Simple jungle people who have been ensnared by the two major Western religions, tend to be very sincere about their faith and take their religion very seriously. This is where the 'holy men' come in to do their dirty work, inciting hatred and murder because God, Allah, whatever decree'd it. The holy men are of course, part of the corrupt establishment, the Islamists in Indonesia usually teach that killing is a sin, but now they teach that it is a sin, except when they kill a Christian!!!?

The people don't even know why they're fighting each other and simply believe it's God's will (both sides).

Mooncat,

I'm not trying to annoy you really. I'm just trying to explain that your "instruction" and my "instruction" come in different forms. Mine is like a very strong intuition, that requires prayer and heavy thought, and yours seems more like a classroom dictation, or a lecture to me. Maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like you're suggesting that God's gonna come down on a lightning bolt and bark an order at me, and that's just not the way He works. That's how I know you're not getting your stuff from the right source remember? Anyway, let's not go there again huh? The fact is that God would never tell me to kill someone. Whether they are in a league with Satan or not. If someone was in such a situation, then what God would want me to do, would be to witness to them. Now if I went across the street and blew their heads off with my .38, that wouldn't be much of a witness now would it? He would want me to love them...to try to show them His love. To accept them, and to witness, that's it. No preaching, no judging, no killing, no funny looks, no snubbed noses...just love. And also, one thing that's very, very important. To be a witness is a GIVEN if you're a Christian. It's just what you're supposed to do, and it's supposed to be clear to you from the Bible. Now, God will help YOU do that, by working on YOUR problems, to make YOU a better witness. But BELIEVE ME, God never, ever, ever deals with YOU about SOMEONE ELSE'S sin. Never. I was always wishing He would when me and the hubby were having problems...I always wanted Him to do this or that with Steve, or I always wanted to talk about him with God, and He wouldn't have it. It was none of my business see? If Steve wanted to hear God, then that was his path, and God deals with everyone separately. So God would never talk to me about my neighbors problems or sins or Satanism or whatever...He would talk to them, and if they didn't want to listen, then that would be their choice. It's just an impossible question to answer MC cause God just doesn't work that way. That's why I get so frustrated when you guys "go off" about "the killing God of the OT", and acting like He barks commands at people. I just know it's not true....from personal experience...it's just not how He works.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Okay...but that's not what I got from those bible verses Someone posted. To me, it DID sound like God specifically said - you guys go wipe out that town. Can you clarify that for me, if that's not how it works, how did that happen??

"...and yours seems more like a classroom dictation, or a lecture to me. Maybe I'm wrong"

Aye, ye are wrong. :)

"That's how I know you're not getting your stuff from the right source remember? Anyway, let's not go there again huh?

Easier said than done, apparently. Lemme just say this, you know you're right & I'm wrong, I know I'm right and you're wrong. That's just where I think we're going to have to leave it. (shrug)

Lori--

That's why I get so frustrated when you guys "go off" about "the killing God of the OT", and acting like He barks commands at people.

Would you do me a favor then, and attempt to encapsulate the essence of God telling the people to destroy the Amelekites, according to your personal interpretation?

And yes, I might well be calling you on the clarity of the handbook, here.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Lori,

So God would never talk to me about my neighbors problems or sins or Satanism or whatever...He would talk to them, and if they didn't want to listen, then that would be their choice. It's just an impossible question to answer MC cause God just doesn't work that way. That's why I get so frustrated when you guys "go off" about "the killing God of the OT", and acting like He barks commands at people. I just know it's not true....from personal experience...it's just not how He works.

Okay, so you're basically admitting that you accept only the "pretty part" of the Bible and reject the rest, is that correct?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Lori,

Killing, in the OT, wasn't looked upon as a good thing was it? To me personally, the OT depicts exactly how important Jesus is as our Saviour, and what exactly we're being saved from, and exactly how devastingly destructive sin is. And yes, God "commanded" that to be so, as inherent in spiritual law...the laws of the universe.

What excatly were we being saved from, gods childish fits of rage? There are more merciful and loving (traits gods is supposed to have) ways to correct the bad behavior of his children. When one of our children gets out of line we do not kill them. Well most people who have their heads screwed on in roughly the right direction. Not that I am saying anything about you, but suggesting that god should take some anger managment courses.

MC,

Ok, I'm wrong about that? You said you dance with your goddess, and I just thought from your question that you thought God was going to, you know, appear with some outright order. I'm just saying...that doesn't happen to me...and I don't know that it will...but if it ever did...I would sure as hell put the "spirit" to the test.

And as to your question, and Tiassa's too, about explaining the OT scripture about the command. First I must say that I am not an expert on Biblical history at all, or ancient Jewish history of any kind. My brother, the atheist, actually knows more about that than I do ironically. He's a big lit and history buff like you Tiassa. But anyway, from a historical perspective, when I read the OT, I keep in mind that atonement had to be very different back then. Jesus Christ changed everything when he died for us. He was the ultimate sacrifice. Now what is sacrifice? Killing, unfortunately. He died for us right? I can't claim to be an authority on how it was back then, because it's so different for me now. I know a God, Jesus, who is merciful and loving and full of grace and forgiving. All I can say is that I don't know a God who is hateful or vengeful. But I look around in the world, and I see death and destruction and suffering everywhere. I see suffering in projects, in famine and war stricken places, and in the wealthiest suburbs, and on the TV everywhere, and in every face I meet. It's real. It comes from somewhere. Where does it come from? It comes from sin, that's where...sinful intent...a denial of the presence of God in your life...and I mean His presence, not just His name or His word...but true faith is living every day really believing that God is who He says He is, and therefore you can trust Him with everything. From what I know about God and about science, I understand the concept of spiritual law from an almost mathematical point of view. Just like gravity. If you jump off a building trying to defy it, you're dead buddy...tough luck. Just like the environment...we use it up with intentions of greed and laziness and gluttony, and we don't care, and the planet's dying. It's the exact same thing in my mind regarding spiritual law. When I read the OT, it just explains to me what I see happening around me. If you sin, which we all will, yes, I'm sorry, but there are destructive and deadly consequences. I don't know how "things" were back in the OT, but when I think of the word "command", I think of God's law...spiritual law...which yes, if it is perverted and circumvented and broken, leads to deadly consequence. You know Tiassa, I don't believe in your scapegoat theory at all. I don't buy that. I know that God created things to be just as lousy as they seem sometimes...and guess what? He does that for a reason. Because things suck when people sin, and He wants us to know the difference, and He wants us to know Him. There is a choice...there is always a choice...never forget that. Good things happen too you know? There's a difference. And when I read the OT, gee, I get the distinct impression that everything's not so relevent. I bet that's what bugs you guys the most about it huh? That's why I say...THANK GOD FOR JESUS!!!!

666,

Hi buuuuuuuuddy. We are being saved from our own sin...we don't not sin, and we can't escape the effects of it, but if you believe in Him, you can have eternal life. And one of these days, life will be much different...without temptation...without sin. Then we get to see what we're missing out on now. Eternal life, unconditional love, and no sin. Imagine how different that would be.

Searcher,

I'm not only paying attention to the pretty part. I'm the one who's saying take a look at the death and atonement practices in the OT and be thankful. I look around and see plenty of suffering, and disease, and death, do you? God doesn't want that. Don't you get it? WE do that, not Him. Yes, there are extremely negative consequences to sin, WHICH ARE REAL, and yes, God created the universe and spiritual law to reflect that. That's what the whole Bible is about! That's why we shouldn't sin see? And you know, if you take an honest look at your evening news sometime, I don't see any worse "atrocities" in the OT than I do all over the place every single day. You don't understand what you read, because you don't know God. And you want to believe He's a big meanie for creating a universe in which we can't have malicious and selfish intentions in without suffering the consequences of such. Well, tough noogies.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 24, 2000).]

Lori,

"I know a God, Jesus, who is merciful and loving and full of grace and forgiving. All I can say is that I don't know a God who is hateful or vengeful. "

But hasn't God himself has specifically stated that he is an angry, jealous God? And don't his actions speak much louder than words?

So what's the deal, is God schizophrenic? Getting mellow in his old age? You arent' a bible historian, so I guess you don't know the answers, but don't these questions bother you a bit? I mean, if I knew some guy that had masaccred an entire town but was now telling me - oh, you have nothing to fear from me so long as you follow my dictates...I wouln't trust that guy any further than I could throw him, no matter who he was or claimed to be. How do you know when the rules are going to change next? He's changed his mind before, what makes you so sure he'll keep his promises now? Where is the consistency? Did God not have a plan when he started all this?

See, it just doesn't hold water for me. It's like any other myth - symbolic in nature, certainally not to be taken literally. In that light, the bible makes sense. But trying to take it literal...nope, sorry. It can't be an apple and an orange at the same time - it's one or the other, or something else entirely, but it can't be both.

Add on top of that that the story of Jesus's birth and early life matches almost precisely an older pagan myth... There's a book about that that's recently come out. I'll find the title and post it - Searcher I think it's right up your alley from what I've heard.

MoonCat,

Add on top of that that the story of Jesus's birth and early life matches almost precisely an older pagan myth... There's a book about that that's recently come out. I'll find the title and post it - Searcher I think it's right up your alley from what I've heard.

You must be referring to the Isis-Horus(Egyptian)/Semiramis-Tammuz (Babylonian) myth? This is mentioned in a number of books (one that comes to mind is "The Biggest Secret" by David Icke), but I'm unaware of a new one. Please pass that info along, as it truly is right up my alley! :)

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Lori,

And you know, if you take an honest look at your evening news sometime, I don't see any worse "atrocities" in the OT than I do all over the place every single day.

Yeah, but I don't believe that God is telling anyone to commit these atrocities, even though some of the perpetrators may claim that. Don't you see what truth I'm leading you to here? YOU don't believe it either, do you? As well you shouldn't. But the OT makes such claims about God ordering these horrendous atrocities, and many people DO believe it, because "after all, it's in the Bible". Well, either the Bible is not the infallible word of God, or God IS a big meanie. Take your pick, but you can't have it both ways, Lori.

You don't understand what you read, because you don't know God. And you want to believe He's a big meanie for creating a universe in which we can't have malicious and selfish intentions in without suffering the consequences of such.

Actually, you've been missing my point all along. The God I believe in doesn't order or condone any killings, mutilations, rapes, or any other such atrocities. But it's YOUR Holy Book that makes these claims about YOUR God, so it's YOUR Holy Book I'm calling into question here. If the standard handbook of Christianity and Judaism is wrong about God ordering the killings, etc., then what else is it wrong about? And if it's 100% true, then what kind of God are you worshipping, and why?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

MC,

It's like you're not hearing what I'm saying. God created a universe in which ther are extremely negative consequences for sin. Sin is a perversion of spiritual law. This is His "anger". God wants more than anything for you to live with Him in eternal bliss and perfection, just the way He created the universe to be...forever...there now, there's His jealousy. He loves you more than anything...get it?!?! And He is jealous enough, yea, to show you that you will die if you choose to. He doesn't want you to make the wrong choice. Well now, isn't He just awful? He's not jealous enough though to interfere with your free will now is He? No, all He can do, and all He does, is try His best to show you that everything's not relative. God doesn't really feel anger, or jealousy, He's just putting it in terms we can all understand, see? His anger is the negative consequence of sin, which is like science and math, I'm sorry, but it doesn't have anything to do with God's "emotions". And His jealousy is His love for you, His creation, and His longing for a relationship with you forever. Now is that really so bad?

Did God have a plan when He started? Yea, a perfect universe and free will. In the end, as far as I can figure, He will have a perfect universe again, and filled with beings like us, and angels, who have made a voluntary, conscious decision, of their own free will, to exist in this universe with Him, and by His law, because they choose to. Sounds smart to me?

Searcher,

No, God is not telling people to commit atrocities. He's telling us not to. But He's also telling us where these atrocities come from and why. And they come from sin, yours, mine, and everyone else's, compounded since the beginning. And even if you don't look at the whole world, but just your own little corner of it, it is still true. And God made it that way. God made it, or commanded it, through the creation of spiritual law, for sin to have deadly effects. But He doesn't want you to sin...He doesn't want you to die...there's a choice...come on...tell me you get what I'm saying...

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the stro