There are 2 possibilities regarding the existence of God (Gods/Godess/etc):

1) God doesn't exist
2) God exist

In both cases, people will surely expirience death, but what happens after that?

Let's take case 1 (God doesn't exist). Suppose in this case after death it's "the end" for the person. Then both atheist and theist will get the same thing. The end.

But suppose God exist. Then some people will go to heaven and some people will go to hell.

Wouldn't it be more rational to take the chance to go to heaven?

Originally posted by gamemania1986
There are 2 possibilities regarding the existence of God (Gods/Godess/etc):

1) God doesn't exist
2) God exist

In both cases, people will surely expirience death, but what happens after that?

Let's take case 1 (God doesn't exist). Suppose in this case after death it's "the end" for the person. Then both atheist and theist will get the same thing. The end.

But suppose God exist. Then some people will go to heaven and some people will go to hell.

Wouldn't it be more rational to take the chance to go to heaven?

This is a question that the philosopher Pascal posed way back when. In fact it is often called "Pascal's Wager".

To the theist, it holds water and makes perfect sense. But to the hyper-defensive atheist it is usually handled with mockery or other forms of impugnity.

It is a legitimate question, however, and one that any atheist while laying in bed at night, alone with the universe, can think about deeply if they choose. But they usually don't.

-Mike

Heaven? I'd rather be an Atheist and not go to heaven. Heaven is just the ultimate dicatator state. No porn, no beer, no sex until your married, no burning of bibles: Why would anyone want to go there? Its completely against any and all freedoms we have as human beings.

let me give you a hypathetical game

I have a rock, this rock wards off tigers, i am holding the rock right now no tigers around, see it works now, there are 2 possibilities concerning this rock

1) it really does ward off tigers and it could come in handy sometime

2) it is a bunch of hoopla that is just a STUPID ROCK

would you buy this rock from me, just in case it wards off tigers?

As an atheist, "Mr. I'm the perfect rationalist" does not want to simply base their belief in God on just that prospect. They want something more, an insatiable proof.

Any analogies that are made concerning believing in God or not will be senseless to "prove" their "superior rationality."

Well gamester you have to look at this as if you're more than an ancient European Christian. There are more than 2 chances.

1) No god exists
2) Christianity is right
3) Islam is right
4) JW is right
5) Judaism is right
6) Buddhism is right
7) None of these are right but there is a god

Choices 2-5 promise an afterlife - but how do you choose which one??

But suppose God exist. Then some people will go to heaven and some people will go to hell.

Not neccesarily. What does "God's" existance have to do with heaven or hell?

Blah. This was debunked about 300 years ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A517646

Chosen, hun, what's an insatiable proof? Sounds kinky. :rolleyes:

Despite the tone of his post, Chosen is pretty much correct hehe.

If you choose to be a "rational" human being, you will realize that basing a belief in God simply because it is the "safe" thing to do is not only preposterous - it undermines the people that truely have faith.

Search google for Pascal's wager - you will find many critiques and objections that do a better job than I would...

This pascal fellow seems unimaginative, uninspired and a little stupid.
To look at the universe and the best you can come up with is those two alternatives?
Hah! :D

Originally posted by Unregistered
Heaven? I'd rather be an Atheist and not go to heaven. Heaven is just the ultimate dicatator state. No porn, no beer, no sex until your married, no burning of bibles: Why would anyone want to go there? Its completely against any and all freedoms we have as human beings.

Hey UN, what do you know? You're only 12 years old.

Originally posted by hockeywings
let me give you a hypathetical game

I have a rock, this rock wards off tigers, i am holding the rock right now no tigers around, see it works now, there are 2 possibilities concerning this rock

1) it really does ward off tigers and it could come in handy sometime

2) it is a bunch of hoopla that is just a STUPID ROCK

would you buy this rock from me, just in case it wards off tigers?


It depends... How much is the rock? ;)

-Mike

==============================================
Tyler wrote:

2) Christianity is right
3) Islam is right
4) JW is right
5) Judaism is right

Choices 2-5 promise an afterlife - but how do you choose which one??
==============================================

Go with the one that believes in Jesus (the only religious figure in the world who did miracles, rose from the dead, and claimed to be God). I guess option #2 then.

- Islam arose as a reaction against, and an alternative to, Christianity and Judaism. Muhammed never performed miracles, never rose from the dead, and never claimed to be God.
- Jehovah's Witnesses, a cult, was started by a man named Charles Russell. They believe in salvation through works, and that only 144, 000 people total will go to Heaven.
- And Jews still live according to Mosaic Laws (see Leviticus), and are still looking for a coming Messiah.

-Mike

Originally posted by hockeywings
let me give you a hypathetical game

I have a rock, this rock wards off tigers, i am holding the rock right now no tigers around, see it works now, there are 2 possibilities concerning this rock

1) it really does ward off tigers and it could come in handy sometime

2) it is a bunch of hoopla that is just a STUPID ROCK

would you buy this rock from me, just in case it wards off tigers?

I would steal the rock, buy a gun, and see if the rock works. If it doesn't, I'd use the gun, and throw the rock at you for false advertising. And hey, I'm letting you off easy, there could easily be a lawsuit in this. :D

Wouldn't it be more rational to take the chance to go to heaven?
Yes, of course! If heaven is all it is hyped up to be, then I'm there, rather than risk the wrath of Judgement Day and spend life in hell.

It depends... How much is the rock? ;)
Homer: "How much is this free weekend?...And when is this free weekend?...Ok, so how much is this going to cost me?"
lol :D

Originally posted by Ekimklaw


Hey UN, what do you know? You're only 12 years old.

Always more than meets the eye. And please do not refer to me as "United Nations"

Originally posted by Ekimklaw


- Islam arose as a reaction against, and an alternative to, Christianity and Judaism. Muhammed never performed miracles, never rose from the dead, and never claimed to be God.



Jesus didnt perform miracles, nor did he rise from the dead. He never died in he firstplace.

Ekimklaw, telling Unregistered that his opinions are invalid because he is 12 is <b>not</b> a valid arguement for Pascal's wager. Winner: Unregistered.

Originally posted by Ekimklaw
==============================================
Tyler wrote:

2) Christianity is right
3) Islam is right
4) JW is right
5) Judaism is right

Choices 2-5 promise an afterlife - but how do you choose which one??
==============================================

Go with the one that believes in Jesus (the only religious figure in the world who did miracles, rose from the dead, and claimed to be God). I guess option #2 then.

- Islam arose as a reaction against, and an alternative to, Christianity and Judaism. Muhammed never performed miracles, never rose from the dead, and never claimed to be God.
- Jehovah's Witnesses, a cult, was started by a man named Charles Russell. They believe in salvation through works, and that only 144, 000 people total will go to Heaven.
- And Jews still live according to Mosaic Laws (see Leviticus), and are still looking for a coming Messiah.

-Mike

Mike: the only religious figure in the world that a really old book says did miracles, rose from the dead, and claimed to be Shoddy Goddy.

Islam wasn't a reaction against: Islam was a reaction against the corruption of Judaism (which was true at the time, at least, Judaism was very corrupt) and the corruption of the Christianity of the time (catholic church, especially from that time), much like Protestantism. The only real difference between the beliefs of Christians and the beliefs of Muslims are these two things: belief of Muslims that Mohammed is a prophet, and belief of Muslims that Jesus is a prophet/belief of Christians that Jesus is God (or God's son, or both).

To me, Islam seems a much liklier chance to heaven over both Christianity, Judaism, and JW. I think, personally, if Shoddy-Goddy DID exist, and he was the Christian Shoddy-Goddy, that he might be willing to allow me into heaven on the fact that I believed he existed and that Weezus-Jesus was at least a prophet, he would certainly consider it much more than if I were an Atheist or a Jew. JW is rather small, plus it's essentially a Christianity-based cult so the same goes for it.

If Shoddy-Goddy DID exist, and he was the Islamic Shoddy-Goddy, then I'd get in free, nqa.

If Shoddy-Goddy DID exist, and he was the Jewish Shoddy-Goddy, then I'd have already met all the requirements for getting in.

To sum it up, it isn't the term you use or which holidays you celebrate, it's your sins and your beliefs that decide whether you get into heaven.

Buddhism would be fairly illogical, as if there is a Shoddy-Goddy, then you'd be screwed 100%, same with Atheism.

I'm still an Atheist though, I tried converting to Islam once, but I just couldn't bring myself to believe in a Shoddy-Goddy that I didn't believe existed.

Oh, and Muslims claim to offer REAL proofs for the existance of Shoddy-Goddy. There are proofs written in the Qu'ran-- tales of things that will happen in the far future, although generally they're happening right now, even though the stories weren't very specific, they were specific enough that one might believe it wasn't a coincidence. Also, the formation of the bronchial tree inside of your lungs actually says in Arabic calligraphy, "There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his messenger". Pretty nifty, eh? (somebody told me this, I found it to be true upon checking. however perhaps still it is just a coincidence)

...two possibilites....
Wouldn't it be more rational to take the chance to go to heaven?
god cannot be proved. It makes no sense to argue which irrationality is the most rational. ;)

By definition.... :rolleyes:

Hi Game,

Welcome to sciforums.

Pascal’s wager has certainly been debunked very well so you do not have a case here, despite Ekim’s colorful anti-atheist adjectives.

Tyler’s point is also important since there are some 5000 and more declared deities. If only one is the only true god how do you choose?

But more importantly does it make sense to believe in a god because of a gamble? Let’s say the xtian god did exist and let’s assume he is intelligent, just, and is perfectly able to recognize a genuine sincere belief. How would he rate someone who says ‘I only believe in a god because it is a good bet’? The requirement for xtianity is a sincere belief in Jesus as a personal savior. The gamble approach is not credible since the motivation is not appropriate.

Cris

Originally posted by Cris
Hi Game,

Welcome to sciforums.

Oh, you're new here? Welcome :D

Pascal’s wager has certainly been debunked very well so you do not have a case here, despite Ekim’s colorful anti-atheist adjectives.

Not necessarily debunked.

Atheists argue that if God is not true, you waste your life believing in something that isn't true.

This seems "rational" to the atheists only. Since there is no absolute who's to say one's opinion is over another's?

If the theist does not consider worshipping a God to be a waste of time, then actually, that part of Pascal's Wager is not a lost.

But you know, atheists love to think "it is." :D

Tyler’s point is also important since there are some 5000 and more declared deities. If only one is the only true god how do you choose?

Let's say you have 5,000 doors to enter to save your life.

The rational person would choose at least one door.

The irrational person would just stand there and say, "It's all bullshit!" :D

Speaking from an extremely rational point of view, 1/5000 is better than nothing.

Something is always better than nothing. Nothing begets nothing. You gain "nothing." :)

But more importantly does it make sense to believe in a god because of a gamble? Let’s say the xtian god did exist and let’s assume he is intelligent, just, and is perfectly able to recognize a genuine sincere belief. How would he rate someone who says ‘I only believe in a god because it is a good bet’? The requirement for xtianity is a sincere belief in Jesus as a personal savior. The gamble approach is not credible since the motivation is not appropriate.

Cris

You see, this problem of a gamble concerns atheists. Theists don't merely believe in God because of a gamble (some could, I'm not speaking for all here).

And there you have it, an atheist remains an atheist.

No matter what reason you present them, they can use the "rational" argument and debunk you. They need MORE :D

"Let's say you have 5,000 doors to enter to save your life.
The rational person would choose at least one door.
The irrational person would just stand there and say, "It's all bullshit!" "

Um no, no that's not exactly a reasonable analogy.
Let me rephrase it for you.

You are standing in front of 5000 doors. There is a representitive in front of each door. Each rep comes up to you and says they have a 3000 year old book that claims their door leads to the ultimate paradise. Behind you is the real world. No rep has actual proof their book tells the truth. Each one claims they have proof their book tells the truth. The real world promises you a life for some duration. The reps say that you can't live the life you desire or their door won't work.

<blockquote>Hey UN, what do you know? You're only 12 years old.</blockquote>

Ironic, since that is the argument of a 10 year old.

As Cris has pointed out rationality is not a slave to self-preservation. You can not believe in the absurd simply because someone puts a gun to your head.

Pascal's Wager assumes that your overriding motivation is self-preservation, rather than living with dignity and not betraying your intellect to grasp at the infinitesimally small chance you might go to heaven.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/pascal.htm

Assume nothing! Especially when holding that one invisible being has any more relevance than any other.

For Pascal's Wager to work:

1. The God must adhere to the rules that have been written by a mortal being. Which mortal being is right? How can you be certain that believing in the wrong God would be any different than believing in no God? What if the penalty is greater?

2. The God must be uncompassionate. Belief in the God must be more important than leading a life untainted by bad behavior. Any God that would punish a person for not believing in said being is a child and not a God. (See Star Trek V)

3. A God must exist. This means that you will have wasted your breath if you are wrong. Are you willing to bet a small-chance positive with the trade of a boring Sunday/Saturday and any other stupid practice you hold sacred.


If a God exists, it would not punish someone for not believing. Otherwise the deity would make itself clear to all.

If you are right and the God will only reward those who believe, Pascal's wager still does not work. Unless the God gives creedence to empty words, those who believe simply because of this idea will still be left out. This is the ultimate failure of Pascal's Wager.

Originally posted by Ekimklaw


Hey UN, what do you know? You're only 12 years old.

Buzz off, now you're being a plain old asshole. If you had read his whole post where he said that, his mental age is OFFICIALLY between 17 years 2 months and 18 years 7 months.

In this community, I think we should judge people by their mental age and their chronological age. What does their chronological age matter at these forums? Only a way for people like you to justify not replying to their valid opinions.

<b>MY</b> mental age is <i>23.4</i>.

Time for GUESS MARK'S CHRONOLOGICAL AGE!!! The winner gets a prize :p

If you already know, don't tell. Oh, by the way, my birthday is 18 August, so I'll be 1 year older then (sort of, the number itself will only go up by one day from the day before it, however we are changing from numbers past the decimal point to to a number in front of the decimal point only: that's what a birthday is)

I based the calculation of my chronological age on how old I will be in 5 days.

This is a question that the philosopher Pascal posed way back when. In fact it is often called "Pascal's Wager".

Cool! Never heard of it before. Anyway let me tell you guys, I am religious not because of this. I have full belief in God. It's just that I thought of this "Pascal's Wager" one day..


==============================================
Tyler wrote:

2) Christianity is right
3) Islam is right
4) JW is right
5) Judaism is right

Choices 2-5 promise an afterlife - but how do you choose which one??
==============================================


Well, do some study and research, then you'll know what to choose...

Here's according to Islam's point of view (I am a muslim)...

God gives his message trough prophets from time to time. Hovewer, some prophets only serve to remind human being while some get to carry a set of rules which we call religion. The latter gets a holy book (The Qur'an was documented after the prophet's death, coordinated by Usman bin Affan (if I am not mistaken). There are lots of beleiver in that time that remembered the whole content so assembling it was not really a big issue). Now, if new rules come then people must follow it.

The 2 last prophets are:
Jesus
Muhammad

Jesus carried Christian. But over the time Bible and Christianity itself was changed/modified by human. Jesus is God in the modified Christian. By the time Muhammad came, most Christian refused to beleive in Islam.

"But how do I know that a new religion is God's next religion, not a hoax?"

Well, that's what miracle is for, to make people believe. And to delete any confusion, it has been foretold by prophets that Muhammad will carry the last religion (even mentioned in the unmodified bible).

An Muhammad do get lots of miracles....

1) Cloud protects him from the sun when travelling
2) He got teleported from Arab to Palestina, then he went to heaven by riding an animal called Buraq, to receive the order to do salat/prayer 5 times a day
3) Qur'an is his biggest miracle

and some other things....

What's Christian's point of view in this? How do you view Muhammad? A guy spreading hoax? Do you think your bible is still unmodified? How do you view the separation of Christian into Catholic and Protestant? How do you view the Church in the past of its actions againts scientific stuffs (poor Galileo and Lavoisier...)...

And did you know that many muslim in the ancient times pioneered science (math, chemistry, astronomy, medical, etc)? For example Ibnu Sina, the father of medical science...

Originally posted by hockeywings
let me give you a hypathetical game

I have a rock, this rock wards off tigers, i am holding the rock right now no tigers around, see it works now, there are 2 possibilities concerning this rock

1) it really does ward off tigers and it could come in handy sometime

2) it is a bunch of hoopla that is just a STUPID ROCK

would you buy this rock from me, just in case it wards off tigers?

Haron Yahya?

"God gives his message trough prophets from time to time. Hovewer, some prophets only serve to remind human being while some get to carry a set of rules which we call religion. The latter gets a holy book (The Qur'an was documented after the prophet's death, coordinated by Usman bin Affan (if I am not mistaken). There are lots of beleiver in that time that remembered the whole content so assembling it was not really a big issue). Now, if new rules come then people must follow it.

The 2 last prophets are:
Jesus
Muhammad

Jesus carried Christian. But over the time Bible and Christianity itself was changed/modified by human. Jesus is God in the modified Christian. By the time Muhammad came, most Christian refused to beleive in Islam."

So you're saying because you're special book says you are right then you are. And Christians say because their special book says they're right, they are. And Jews say because Christ never actually completed what their special book predicts a saviour would do (neither did Mohammed), they're right.

And then we need not look very hard before we encounter Buddhists. Or the Hindus. What about Cao Dai? Tell me what authority you have over them? I'll tell you what - your special book.

There is not one way to prove religion let alone a specific religion a logical choice. Accept the fact that you are not basing your beliefs on logic and you will be more ready to dive into understanding your spirituality better.

Originally posted by Tyler

So you're saying because you're special book says you are right then you are. And Christians say because their special book says they're right, they are. And Jews say because Christ never actually completed what their special book predicts a saviour would do (neither did Mohammed), they're right.

.

Tyler,
If you read all three books what you will notice is, they all are refering to same religion. Islam is not only proven by or written in Quran but in above two books as well. Bible and Torah or old testaments. Muhammad(pbuh) was mention not only in those two books but in Veda and other hindu and parsian scriptures as well, Now how come something which didn't happened was mention so many times and in so many different books and in different parts of the world and in different times? You still think that there is no truth in religion? I am not saying right now that Islam is only true religion, but what I am saying is that all the religions were the same but Islam was last and the complete religion in the list of them. It is like the seal of religions. And it was the main message of all the religions that there is no one but one GOD, worship him and follow the book and rules he made for you. Simple is that but people changed the books and rules and disregards the teaching, since books were messed up no one knew what was written and why and when etc etc but that is not the case with Islam howeve it is the case with the followers of islam that they don't follow their book ( most of them ) but they follow the culture and rituals adopted and created by the fore fathers etc.


If you like I can give you more insight on Muhammad(pbuh) and Islam in different scriptures. Or if you like I can start a new thread since this thread has a different topic.

Peace