The chip, would be the ultimate form of security, it would end all wars, every human on earth would be tracked every moment of their lives from birth until death with every action logged.

Would you accept the chip in exchange for national or global security? Would you accept the chip if it meant a world free from war?

No. I'm afraid of an alien threat. Wars keep us well trained to repel intergalactic invaders.

That's a tough question. I would have to say no, because the potential to abuse the power of such a device would be overwhelming. Even though the ideal of peace in this situation sounds great, how could it prevent war? The chip would just keep a more accurate death toll, supply expenditure, and would reveal the location of every soldier/civilian.

i have a better idea. check out my thread "who else is sick of the world?"

nope, I want my soma

Could it really be a brave new world?

absolutely not. my lady and i have both sworn that our children will recieve no chip either.

I'd do it just for fun, though. Maybe if it had some video games in it.

Hell no I wouldn't. Ultimate form of security? What a joke. Nothing is. RFID's can get bypassed and disabled so easily.

Nothing will ever be the ultimate security yet the government will continue to try it's hardest to supress us. Once we find a way to bypass the chip, they'll just stick us all in cages so that we really can't do anything and continue to use the excuse of them just doing this to try and protect us, lol. Fuck their protection, I can take care of myself. The government's never done a damned thing to help me, only put limitations on what I can do.

- N

The government's never done a damned thing to help me,
- N
no?
the US government is directly responsible for every man woman and child getting the polio vaccine free of charge.

The chip, would be the ultimate form of security, it would end all wars, every human on earth would be tracked every moment of their lives from birth until death with every action logged.

Would you accept the chip in exchange for national or global security? Would you accept the chip if it meant a world free from war?
You're assuming that ease of identification would prevent wrongdoing. Sadly, some people are plain lunatics and just can't help sexually molesting old women, stabbing dogs or blowing up embassies. ID chips wouldn't change this simple fact.

A better system would be an implant that delivers a steady stream of endorphins to keep everyone happy, coupled with the ability to deliver severe electric shocks at appropriate moments. Naturally, 24-hour monitoring of everyone everywhere would be a prerequisite, but this is just a minor technicality.

the US government is directly responsible for every man woman and child getting the polio vaccine free of charge.

Oh wow, gee thanks. All the trouble and limitations they've done to me all for a free polio shoot, woohoo, that's SO much worth it! Thanks, but I'd rather pay my $30 for the shot instead and have them not wire tap me, stick a chip in me, or anything else like that.

A better system would be an implant that delivers a steady stream of endorphins to keep everyone happy, coupled with the ability to deliver severe electric shocks at appropriate moments. Naturally, 24-hour monitoring of everyone everywhere would be a prerequisite, but this is just a minor technicality.

Heh, sounds like Harrison Bergeron.

- N

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

Sounds interesting. I like tales of dystopias, so I think I'll look out for that one. Re. the above - I think I was actually thinking of Brave New World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_new_world).

The chip, would be the ultimate form of security,

How? My father's dog has one and he got bitten by another dog. A friend's dog had one too and he got run over by a car.

it would end all wars,

How?

every human on earth would be tracked every moment of their lives from birth until death with every action logged.
And then you just insert a blackmarket chip and your slate is whiped clean.


Would you accept the chip in exchange for national or global security?
First make the case that it will garantee national or global security.


Would you accept the chip if it meant a world free from war?

First make the case that a chip could prevent wars.

THEY can put a chip in my arm, when they pry my gun from my cold dead fingers.

-MT

How? My father's dog has one and he got bitten by another dog.

Well, yeah, but the other dogs did NOT have the chip! If they had, they wouldn't have attacked your father's dog.

But I wouldn't support the chip because humans need wars and killing to satisfy their innate need, their innate hunger, for violence and death. If they couldn't enjoy a good, bloody, deadly conflict, they'd have to invent one. As it is, they can enjoy the nightly news shows that depict all the world's death and destruction and violence -- it gives them their booster shot of mayhem so they can enjoy a good night's sleep.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that humans are terribly violent creatures ...they NEED violence and killing in their lives, even if they deny it adamantly.

Baron Max

A better system would be an implant that delivers a steady stream of endorphins to keep everyone happy, coupled with the ability to deliver severe electric shocks at appropriate moments. Naturally, 24-hour monitoring of everyone everywhere would be a prerequisite, but this is just a minor technicality.


This reminds me of a sci-fi short story I read online a while back, where everyone has a transmitter in their brain and their thoughts are transmitted to the government who uses high pitched whines as punishment and soothing sounds as reward (not certain about this part), the television giving off subliminal signals to keep everyone hypnotised. Cannot remember the name though. The main characters are a man, his wife and a son who rebels by removing the transmitter.

edit: Darn, should have read ahead. Harrison Bergeron it was, as Neildo said.

the chip will be the sign of the beast....

I OPENNED bank account.. a while ago..

and the lady asked... do you want a credit card?

i asked..'why would i want that?'

she said... 'cause without good credit you cant buy alot of things...'

soon, your credit will deside, whether you can sell... as it does now, in defining your loan status in starting a buisness.

you are all already marked. numbered... filed.. and classified as to your value.


-MT

you are all already marked. numbered... filed.. and classified as to your value.

unfortunately for the corporate thugs that want me implanted, my only redeeming value resides in my pants.

Most people really don't realize just how "classified" they really are! Anyone over the age of eighteen or so, will be in "the system" in the USA without even knowing it. Credit cards, cell phones, computer systems/Internet, email, toll tags for your car, employment history, college classes, drivers permit, health insurance card, ....the list goes on pretty endlessly. And few complain. Yet mention something like this implant device, and they all go ballistic. Pretty funny, huh?

Baron Max

Yes, but they aren't all collected and administered in one database. I would be less afraid of the government than private entities getting control of all my information, since the government at least has some oversight.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that humans are terribly violent creatures ...they NEED violence and killing in their lives, even if they deny it adamantly.

Or at least an outlet for it.

since the government at least has some oversight.

Terrorist. True patriots know that their government must operate without oversight to catch enemies of the state.

Yes, but they aren't all collected and administered in one database.

Such "private" databases are shared by the vast majority of companies.

I would be less afraid of the government than private entities getting control of all my information, since the government at least has some oversight.

You have a strange paranoid idea about the government. Mostly the "government" can't stick it's finger in it's own ass without a complex blueprint and precise, step-by-step instructions!

Our government is an elected body that really can't do much in the manner of which you speak and seem to worry. There are safeguards all over the place for such illegal crap. Hell, Spider, our government can't even keep secrets from the press, for god's sake ....things are leaked all the time.

And yet you worry about govenment takeover or control of the citizens? Oh, my, you have a lot to learn.

Baron Max

I would gladly accept the chip.

What I want is targeted advertising. I want the producers to know everything about me, the consumer. I want to only see commercials and billboards and ads that apply to the things that I like and want. I would like to not carry a wallet anymore. Let the cops and the cashiers scan me. Let random people see everything there is to know about me. I want it all on my chip... my medical records, my lack of criminal record, my last will and testament, my check-card, all my passwords and login names.

Yes. Please. Yesterday.

Everything I own right now is already hackable. Worse, all the things I own right now can be stolen from me. I can't keep them all with me all the time. This digital peanut would have less vulnerabilities than my current stuff. I think the people that get in an uproar about "privacy" are the people that really think the Feds are concerned about them smoking a bowl twice a week.

Unless I carved that chip out of your neck and put it mine.

Bitch.

Unless I carved that chip out of your neck and put it mine.

Bitch.

Exactly. Which is my point. The fear-mongers love to point out the weakness of these systems without admitting that these weaknesses are stronger than any current system.

I had a guy "lift" my wallet from me in London once. If it wasn't for the fact that I'm always walking way ahead of my friends, I never would have known it, and wouldn't have gotten my wallet back. However, if you were to slick my neck or arm open, I would have a bit of a warning that my property has been stolen, and I could make the necessary cancellations.

A co-worker recently lost his wallet on a trip. The pain and hassle of cancelling so many things and getting new ones is amazing. His social security card was in there, as was his credit cards, DL, some checks...

When my chip gets taken, I make one call and the whole thing is taken offline and a new one is put in the same day. Better yet... make a system comprised of 5 chips, one in the neck and another in each limb. They work like RFID, where they can turn each other on and off. The neck chip does all the work, but only if the other 4 chips all chime in an "OK" response showing proximity. If you can get a GPS system integrated, you can use an online map to "OK" boundaries for yourself, so the system will shut down or contact authorities if it is outside of geographical limits that you set.

Point is, any of this would be stronger than leaving your checkbook in the glove compartment and carrying around wads of paper that requires no identification. And one of the things that keeps prices unfairly high is employee theft, which is drastically reduced in a paperless economy. Theme parks have learned this lesson well.

Our government is an elected body that really can't do much in the manner of which you speak and seem to worry.

It is? Funny, I didn't see where I was able to elect our two recent additions to the Supreme Court, where I was able to elect the head of the CIA, where I was able to elect our Secretary of Defense, where I was able to elect, etc etc..

Mayor, Governor, House, and President is all I'm able to do. I have no control over their actions. Even a lot less when the person I didn't even vote for gets into power!

- N

Everything I own right now is already hackable. Worse, all the things I own right now can be stolen from me. I can't keep them all with me all the time. This digital peanut would have less vulnerabilities than my current stuff. I think the people that get in an uproar about "privacy" are the people that really think the Feds are concerned about them smoking a bowl twice a week.

That's one of the bonuses of all your items. Where they all each have to be hacked for prying eyes to see. In the case of your chip where ALL your information is there, all one would have to do is hack one item. RFID chips have ALREADY been hacked. EVERYTHING can be hacked. For all your important information, you do NOT want it digitialized.

There is no such thing as complete security. Hell, terrorism is an example of that. And the more eggs you have in your basket, the bigger target you'll be and the harder you'll fall, the WTC being an example as well. Your RFID to soon be an example as well.

- N

What if the chip malfunctions and accidently causes you to vote Democrat?

It is? Funny, I didn't see where I was able to elect our two recent additions to the Supreme Court, where I was able to elect the head of the CIA, where I was able to elect our Secretary of Defense, where I was able to elect, etc etc..

You elected your representatives for congress ..they then REPRESENTED you in their own actions in the congress. You had a voice in the selections of the Supreme Court justices, there were confirmation hearings for the appointments of the CIA, the Secretary of Defense, etc., etc.

Mayor, Governor, House, and President is all I'm able to do. I have no control over their actions. Even a lot less when the person I didn't even vote for gets into power!

There are checks n' balances all over and throughout our system of government. The president can make almost no policy without the consent of congress ....which YOU voted for! The president didn't take us to war all by himself, the congress APPROVED that action ....yet everyone seems to want to blame the president?! ...LOL!

As to you not voting for President Bush, let me ask you something .....if YOUR candidate had been elected, would you want others to continually question his powers and his actions ...constantly protesting, etc? Or are you one of those people who thinks that they know world politics and such that you know more than the president, his staff and the congress?

We elect people to represent us in the USA, why don't we stand back and let them do their job?

Baron Max

Damn. Baron beat me to pointing out the horrible logic of Neildo, and give him a lesson on the structure of American government.

Damn you to hell Baron. I'm developing carpal tunnel while trying to keep up with you! ;)

I'll bet you would eat shit if your government told you. Or kill all the jews. Or all the muslims.

I'll bet you would eat shit if your government told you. Or kill all the jews. Or all the muslims.

Ahh, but, Spurious, you forgot about the checks n' balances within out system of government. "The Government" can't just tell me to do things like that without sufficient approval of the congress and the courts. It just doesn't work that way, Spurious, regardless of how and what you think.

Now if they told us to kill blacks and Muslims .......? :)

Baron Max

Ahh, but, Spurious, you forgot about the checks n' balances within out system of government. "The Government" can't just tell me to do things like that without sufficient approval of the congress and the courts. It just doesn't work that way, Spurious, regardless of how and what you think.

Now if they told us to kill blacks and Muslims .......? :)

Baron Max

Let's presume the following situation:
They passed the patriot act2. It says you have to kill all muslims. Will you do so?

Let's presume the following situation:
They passed the patriot act2. It says you have to kill all muslims. Will you do so?

Oh, hell yeah!!!!! Geez, just think of the great target practice! Wow, we could all have BBQ pork and beer, then go out hunting 'em down on the streets like animals! Geez, who could ask for fun than that? Well, okay, it might be even more fun if Muslims AND blacks were included??? :)

Baron Max

Damn. Baron beat me to pointing out the horrible logic of Neildo, and give him a lesson on the structure of American government.

Actually wrong, as I mentioned in my post, I didn't vote for those guys in power. I sure didn't elect any of em. They're not representing me but only those who voted for em. I'm not responsible for any of their actions because I didn't vote for the sons of bitches. And believe me, I know how the system works, Aussie boy.

if YOUR candidate had been elected, would you want others to continually question his powers and his actions ...constantly protesting, etc?

Yes, of course, if the people believe that person isn't doing a good job. You think our opinions end the moment we cast our ballot? Psssh, hardly. So much for writing our congressmen, eh?

We elect people to represent us in the USA, why don't we stand back and let them do their job?

Because it's the people in charge. Those in power represent us. We don't just vote, sit back, and let em do whatever the hell they want. We can take politicians out of power. We did it with Grey Davis and put Arnold in charge and we can do it to whomever else we want. Just like a publicly traded company, the stockholders are the ones in charge, not the CEOs.

The president didn't take us to war all by himself, the congress APPROVED that action ....yet everyone seems to want to blame the president?! ...LOL!

Nobody blames the president solely, they blame him administration. It's just easier to say Bush rather than a whole list of names. His administration were the ones who cherry-picked intelligence for him to form his opinion. Their lies and disinformation convinced congress to vote how they did. This is the reason why information and charisma is power. You can easily increase the odds of someone voting how you want by telling them what you want them to hear. And again, I wasn't represented during the vote to go to war because the person supposedly representing me isn't the one I voted for and their stance is the complete opposite of mine. Surely when someone barely wins their title by a 50/50 vote, there's sure to be a major dissent with half of their decisions.

- N

Their lies and disinformation convinced congress to vote how they did.

- N
actually it was american and international intelligence that convinced them.
americe is not soley responsible for the disinformation on iraqs WMD.

Actually wrong, as I mentioned in my post, I didn't vote for those guys in power. I sure didn't elect any of em. They're not representing me but only those who voted for em. I'm not responsible for any of their actions because I didn't vote for the sons of bitches.

So you're not happy unless YOUR candidates win? That doesn't say much for you ideals about the system of voting and government, does it? If YOUR candidate had won, wouldn't you want everyone to sit back and let HIM run the government ....since "The people" elected him? Or are you a hippo-crit?

Yes, of course, if the people believe that person isn't doing a good job. You think our opinions end the moment we cast our ballot? Psssh, hardly. So much for writing our congressmen, eh?

So, by that, I take it that you support a new system of government ...."Government by Protest"? The group that yells and complains the loudest wins? ...and then the next few months, we go through the same thing? "Government by Protest"? Hmm?

And again, I wasn't represented during the vote to go to war because the person supposedly representing me isn't the one I voted for and their stance is the complete opposite of mine.

So you only go along with the voting system of the American people ....as long as it's what YOU want? What about what THEY want? And again, if YOUR candidate won, wouldn't you want "the people" to support him? Or are you a hippo-fuckin'-crit?

Baron Max

Neildo, you are setting a silly precedent. You are opening the door to have "your candidate" powerless when you do "win". Which means that nobody can ever have a mandate, which is some sort of pretend-anarchy with a thin coat of democro-icing.

Good luck with that one.

I would gladly accept the chip.

What I want is targeted advertising. I want the producers to know everything about me, the consumer. I want to only see commercials and billboards and ads that apply to the things that I like and want. I would like to not carry a wallet anymore. Let the cops and the cashiers scan me. Let random people see everything there is to know about me. I want it all on my chip... my medical records, my lack of criminal record, my last will and testament, my check-card, all my passwords and login names.

Yes. Please. Yesterday.

Everything I own right now is already hackable. Worse, all the things I own right now can be stolen from me. I can't keep them all with me all the time. This digital peanut would have less vulnerabilities than my current stuff. I think the people that get in an uproar about "privacy" are the people that really think the Feds are concerned about them smoking a bowl twice a week......

hey swivel

thank you for this.

Eventhough i can see your point, if the hackers hack into your chip they can take out all the various digital media implanted not just the odd wallet or the odd passport bu the whole dammned lot!!!!

Hell they would know everyhting about you....

Dictators would have a field day with this technology..
But then

The chip would consist of two parts, one part is implanted in the right wrist, and the other is in your left shoulder. Using a more limited RFID technology, with a much smaller range, the two chips would have to be within inches of each other before one activated the other. The second one has all the information, and will not transmit unless the first one is within this range. That way, the system is not always transmitting, or even readable. It would be like throwing a hard switch before the system can be used, which would protect against even accidental charges.

Even simpler, make it so that the chip can only transmit one inch in diameter, so in order to pay, you will have to pick up a scanner (just like the credit swipers we use on counters today), and hold it to your shoulder. Perhaps you also have to enter a pin number for most uses. This would still allow paramedics, security, etc... to scan you. But it would be very difficult for hackers to get that invasive without you knowing. Especially if there was a 5-second delay required for all transactions.

Geez... I'm not even that bright, but I can think of dozens of ways to make this system safe, and all the bright people keep blubbering, "Hacker, hackers, hackers" with drool running down their chins. Pot-smokers of the world, RELAX. The system will be volunteer-based, not mandatory. This is to improve the life of those of us that don't break the law and don't see the cops as the enemy. We pay the cops to protect us from paranoid law-breakers like yourselves. You guys can always be the next generation of blue-hairs that holds up the line by writing a check.

So you're not happy unless YOUR candidates win?

Or are you a hippo-crit?

Uh, well duh I'm not gonna be happy unless my candidate wins especially when they may have a completely different view than mine where they can enact laws that affect me in a negative way. You better be damned sure I'm gonna be pissed if some liberal gets elected that says they're going to enact a law to ban all guns or whatever else. You better be damned sure I'm gonna be pissed if a candidate wins that all of a sudden says they wanna intiate the draft. What the hell do you think? LoL. And how is that hypocritical? Just because one vote happens, it doesn't mean it's permanent. Heck, look at congress and our laws. Many laws that fail get one tiny little thing tweaked and then get submitted in hopes of that side getting the law passed. They'll try over and over again until they succeed. It's no different with us lowly peon citizens and our votes.


So, by that, I take it that you support a new system of government ...."Government by Protest"? The group that yells and complains the loudest wins? ...and then the next few months, we go through the same thing? "Government by Protest"? Hmm?

That's not a new system of government. That's always been a part of our democracy. Where've you been?


So you only go along with the voting system of the American people ....as long as it's what YOU want? What about what THEY want? And again, if YOUR candidate won, wouldn't you want "the people" to support him? Or are you a hippo-fuckin'-crit?

Dude, you're a fuckin' moron. Votes aren't pemanent. When someone gets elected, their position isn't permanent either. They can be removed at any time the people want to try. All a successful vote means is that a person gets to currently be in power, it doesn't mean they'll remain in that power for their term. That person only has the job for as long as the people allow them to have it. If enough people are upset about it, they can vote em out. There will always be people that disagree with a vote because no person is ever elected with 100% of the votes.

Neildo, you are setting a silly precedent. You are opening the door to have "your candidate" powerless when you do "win". Which means that nobody can ever have a mandate, which is some sort of pretend-anarchy with a thin coat of democro-icing.

I'm not seeing any precedent, that's exactly how it is. Most officials always have some group trying to get them out of power. The only reason they fail is because their views are in the minority. Rarely does an elected official screw up so badly where everyone wants em out. If they get enough people to go along with em, that official can be gone. And no official is powerless even if people continue to try and ge them out of power. As long as they're still in power, they can do their job. It's only when enough votes come that they're out and are powerless. Half the country dislikes Bush, yet he doesn't seem so powerless does he? Once the majority agrees and tries to get him out of power, then he'll be gone, but until then, his power remains.

Geez... I'm not even that bright, but I can think of dozens of ways to make this system safe, and all the bright people keep blubbering, "Hacker, hackers, hackers" with drool running down their chins.

Believe me, whatever you can come up with, it will be hacked. There has not been one competely effective measurement of security EVER. Every single time someone comes up and says this is hack-proof, it's been hacked in under a week. Many times the program is even hacked before it's released because they're that good, able to to even acquire it when in the developers hands, lol. I always look forward to new technology that claims to be the best because everyone gets to make a pool and win some dough.

- N

Believe me, whatever you can come up with, it will be hacked. There has not been one competely effective measurement of security EVER. Every single time someone comes up and says this is hack-proof, it's been hacked in under a week. Many times the program is even hacked before it's released because they're that good, able to to even acquire it when in the developers hands, lol. I always look forward to new technology that claims to be the best because everyone gets to make a pool and win some dough.

- N

Wrong. Not even close.

Nobody has hacked PGP, or any of the really good encryption algorithms. And even PC games recently had the almighty StarForce protection scheme that was unbreakable, leading to the relative crash of the PC piracy scene. The only thing that stopped StarForce was an amazing amount of pressure brought by gamers claiming that StarForce was killing their CD-ROM drives.

You can't talk out of your butt, and use hyperbole, and expect to be taken seriously. The XBox 360 was hyped as uncrackable, and it has been out for almost a year with no reliable mod-chip.

And again, I am coming up with ideas, you are just making stuff up with absolutely no knowledge of the subject.

And your political views are still bunk.

Wrong. Not even close. Nobody has hacked PGP, or any of the really good encryption algorithms.

Isn't that exactly, precisely, what they said about many of the last encryption programs that were invented/developed? But they were cracked, weren't they? Hmm, makes ya' wonder, don't it?

Baron Max

Uh, well duh I'm not gonna be happy unless my candidate wins especially when they may have a completely different view than mine where they can enact laws that affect me in a negative way. You better be damned sure I'm gonna be pissed if some liberal gets elected that says they're going to enact a law to ban all guns or whatever else. You better be damned sure I'm gonna be pissed if a candidate wins that all of a sudden says they wanna intiate the draft. What the hell do you think? LoL. And how is that hypocritical? Just because one vote happens, it doesn't mean it's permanent. Heck, look at congress and our laws. Many laws that fail get one tiny little thing tweaked and then get submitted in hopes of that side getting the law passed. They'll try over and over again until they succeed. It's no different with us lowly peon citizens and our votes.

you tell 'em neildo.
sometimes you piss me off with some of the things you say.
but this post makes me wanna vote you for president! :cool:

Nobody has hacked PGP, or any of the really good encryption algorithms. And even PC games recently had the almighty StarForce protection scheme that was unbreakable, leading to the relative crash of the PC piracy scene. The only thing that stopped StarForce was an amazing amount of pressure brought by gamers claiming that StarForce was killing their CD-ROM drives.

Dude, anything can be cracked. Hell, the first method is to bypass security altogether! A classic example in regards to PGP:

"Like all cryptography systems and software, the security of PGP can be lost by misuse or by indirect attacks which avoid hard cryptanalysis. In one case, the FBI obtained a court order permitting secret installation of keystroke logger software on a suspect's computer; when they harvested the information, they recovered his PGP passphrase and thereby gained access, by way of his PGP private key, to all his protected files and emails. He was subsequently tried and convicted.[1]"

Um, heh, and StarForce isn't unbreakable. It's been cracked and can be bypassed.

You can think up any ol' security measure, and there will be a way around it, or through it. There has not been one single 100% secure system EVER.

sometimes you piss me off with some of the things you say.

Thanks, I try. ;)

- N

Accept chip?

Fuck no!

Well, yeah, but the other dogs did NOT have the chip! If they had, they wouldn't have attacked your father's dog.

But I wouldn't support the chip because humans need wars and killing to satisfy their innate need, their innate hunger, for violence and death. If they couldn't enjoy a good, bloody, deadly conflict, they'd have to invent one. As it is, they can enjoy the nightly news shows that depict all the world's death and destruction and violence -- it gives them their booster shot of mayhem so they can enjoy a good night's sleep.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that humans are terribly violent creatures ...they NEED violence and killing in their lives, even if they deny it adamantly.

Baron Max


What about the humans who arent violent? I don't understand why you'd want insecurity for the sake of the most violent among us.

Yes, but they aren't all collected and administered in one database. I would be less afraid of the government than private entities getting control of all my information, since the government at least has some oversight.

How do you know that? We have the internet now, and super computers. Also don't you know government and private entites work together and sometimes are the same?

What if the chip malfunctions and accidently causes you to vote Democrat?

Depends on the chip inside the voting machine.

Would you accept the chip
yes, when hell freezes over.