Ok, I know alien life isn't proven yet, but to the ancient greeks anything beyond the pillars of hercules wasn't proven. Even they conjectured about planets around other stars and the possibility of life on such worlds. What I'm wondering about is the likelihood of intelligent life being friendly. I guess I'm a pessimist. I see no reason to think higher intelligences will be a mirror of our own idealised ethical perfection. For gawdsakes. They're ALIENS! How can we expect them to be more human than we are? Besides, all that malarkey about us being more civilised and spiritually aware than our forebears just doesn't cut it with me. I see no evidence of that. An apex predator doesn't reach the top of the food chain by being nice. He doesn't stay there by being nice. I have a feeling that when two spacefaring species meet it generally gets messy. History seems to back me up. Maybe thats why we have never met any intelligent races from other stars. Because different Alien species are too busy fighting with each other to have reached here yet. :D

SpaceDaily Forums. (http://www.spacemessageboard.com)

I can give you two arguements, one for and one against a friendly alien civilization.



For any civilization to advance, there must be co-operation. No one individual could research, finance, and support a space effort. (As witness to that, look at how much effort, energy, and finances go into just putting a satellite into space.) For co-operation to exist between individuals there has to be give and take. Over time, co-operation leads to the the realization to mutual benefit is better and more abundant in the long term than it is the short term. It is therefore better to help your other partner at times to ensure that the co-operation continues. This leads to the development of a sort of trust and helping the welfare of the other to maintain this relationship. Any wars, have the tendancy to slow down commercial interests (unless they are war centered) and peace tends to destroy commercial war interests. Between the two, far more is achieved by peace than war, as far as commercial co-operation is concerned. It is therefore of more benefit to the groups and species to maintain a peaceful effort than a war like one.

(This one came up sometime ago and is posted somewhere within Sciforums. I can not remember the member that posted it but do remember the subject.) It was his contention that our broadcasts into space, leaked communication signals, even our radio telescope efforts were the wrong things to be doing by a species that wished to survive. That the first logical thing a race should do when discovering a competing race should be to plan the total elimination of that discovered species. Nothing less than total elimination would be acceptable. Competition for resources and growing room would lead survival of the species towards this trend. That if you let the other species remain after knowing they are there that one day the shoe may well be on the other foot and that the discovering species could well be faced with their own destruction. Therefore, in self-interest all species should be that upon discovery that a planet buster should be launched at first given oppurtunity and that the path of the weapon should be disguised so that no return weapon could be launched.

i wanna advertise my presence and on the other hand i wanna kick myself for doing so. this antropomorphic assumption on our part about the peaceful intentions of aliens is really not cool. but then again......... i got it! lets err on the side of caution! what if you are responsible for the welfare of billions of humans? what would you do?

The aliens we first encounter will either be more advanced than us, less advanced than us or on a par. Three possibilities only. Assuming they are more advanced we can look at our own behaviour towards less sentient life for guidance. How do we treat the most intelligent creatures on this planet such as chimpanzies and dolphins? Ok. Chimps are expendable experimental test animals, circus performers, caged zoo exhibits or in some regions of Africa an exotic dish. Dolphins are served as whalemeat or tuna in many parts of Asia, shot at by fishermen for "stealing" fish, made to jump through hoops at Sea World and used by the military for fetching underwater bombs.

I don't want to be the inferior race when we meet the neighbours from back of beyond. Intelligent creatures have at best a total disregard for less intelligent or less technologically advanced races. The lower the species the less regard. I don't watch the pavement for fear of stepping on ants. Civilised little creatures with their own societies they might be but they have the intelligence of a Commodore 64 computer. If they don't get out of the way tough luck.

If they are on a par with us then they can be treated as equals. Equal competitors that is. As equally advanced beings they are a threat and most wars are the result of misunderstandings or one side wanting one thing and the other wanting something different. We disagree and fight among ourselves constantly. The more diverse the opposing cultures the greater the possibility of conflict. Canada and the US are not likely to chant hate cries across the border. The US and the middle east however is different. Both are strong and both disagree strongly on ethical values. Neither side understands the other so there is fear and contempt and hatred. How will it be with an alien species which will likely be impossible to comprehend? As complex as us physically but an utterly different mindset.

I don't doubt that the most successful races in the universe are the best fighters. Those are the ones who will expand beyond their own sphere of space, through others, and eventually reach ours. That scares the hell out of me. Hopefully it wont happen for a few million years.

What does a wolf do when it sees a mirror? It growls.

Living here on good old greedy warlike Earth, it's too easy to assume that aliens will be hostile (ID4). Imagine how long it will be before we are actually capable of finding alien life and visiting it. By that time, we probably won't even be Earthlings ourselves anymore. I'm not saying that we will be any smarter once we've destroyed our home planet, but the children born on the moon or Mars may be a bit different than we are.

All I'm saying is that even if the aliens were human, we cannot currently relate to the motivations of any species capable of the interstellar travel necessary to carry out your scenario.

I think any aliens out there need to worry about falling into our hands, more than likely we have already been classified dangerous if there are aliens out there.

I think that if they exist, they will either be scientist-like, and thereby only use us for study/experiment (kinda reduce us to monkey status), or else they will either harvest us for food or destroy us in battle so that they can take the resources of the earth (metals/etc.....although it MIGHT be more important for them to take the water, being as that seems rare on other planets)

Maybe it is also dependent on how common life is. If a alien species meets new intelligent lifeforms all the time it might be a bit triggerhappy. If it is the first time it meets other equal life it might rethink their actions twice. It is the first and only opportunity ever to exchange ideas with other intelligent lifeforms after all...

Unfortunately, not only is there no reason to assume that alien life would be friendly, there is no reason to expect alien life to be friendly even with other members of its own species.

Once intelligent entities in different solar systems become aware of each other, they are forced to observe each other over a separation of light years- this means any military intelligence is years out of date, and instead of rational friendliness and mutual understanding even the most intelligent entities would be forced to adopt a paranoid, worst case scenario strategy.

Sorry, but that is the way it is.
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Originally posted by MechTech
I think that if they exist, they will either be scientist-like, and thereby only use us for study/experiment (kinda reduce us to monkey status), or else they will either harvest us for food or destroy us in battle so that they can take the resources of the earth (metals/etc.....although it MIGHT be more important for them to take the water, being as that seems rare on other planets)
And this is almost completely wrong, I am afraid; Alien life is likely to be so different to earth life that we will share few amino acids, proteins and enzymes in common, yet we may each contain trace elements that are deadly to each other...
Each solar system seem to have a unique composition of heavy metals and other elements, which will no doubt cause many problems for colonists.
Having said that there are few elements valuable enough to transport from one solar system to another-
it would be cheaper to manufacture them at the home system by fusion or fission.
And finally the Earth has no monopoly on water- Europa, Ganymede, Callisto, Titan, Triton, Pluto each have much more water than Earth... you have to melt the ice, is all.
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Originally posted by roadkill
The aliens we first encounter will either be more advanced than us, less advanced than us or on a par. Three possibilities only.

I'd like to add to this list. What if the aliens are more advanced in some areas, and less advanced in others? What if they are technologically and socially different enough that neither their or our methods of doing things can be considered truely better or worse? only "not the same?" Or maybe their methods of doing things are great, but have some horrible side effect. Maybe the aliens have come to accept this sideeffect, or maybe it simply doesn't bother them. in either case, their technology may seem more advanced than ours to them, but may seme asinine and backwards to us.

This is a very good logical question, though.

In addition, interstellar travel will take generations, and if it's done at zero G the effects on the our DNA are unpredictable. Our DNA has evolved in gravitational and magnetic fields. With such a radical environment change, we might not recognize our own astronauts as human if they showed up after a 200 year journey. So if the aliens are explorers themselves, they might not be representative of their own species anymore, either, assuming that mutation is a universal trait of life. Explorers do go everywhere first, after all.

Many alien races would look at earth the same way as we look at venus. Completely inhospitable. Why invade us?

If all sentient life is similar to humans, in how they think, why NOT invade us? Maybe all sentient life is intelligent, but so stupid at the same time...working on fear rather than logic, fiercely xenophobic and racist, stereotypical and judgemental, impulsive.... etc

Maybe they wouldnt because our enviroment was so vastly different from what they are used to that neither their biology or technology could function here.

That does not exclude orbital bombardment.

If man eliminated all competitors there would be only one family existing on Earth. Obviously there's competetion among men and among species but there's a balance also of predator and prey. Different species find ways to co-exist. What we have to do if we encounter a more advance species is contribute something to their happiness.

The inferior species has the task of accommadation. The superior species has a choice of destroying us or using us for their purpose. Hopefully they are vegeterians.
The test of intelligence on our part would be to avoid the urge of confronting an advanced species. That would be suicidal.

If aliens have hostile intentions..

Ive read some interesting articles, and rest assured... if they visit us, their technology would be so advanced we would not have a chance (no moron heroic "save-the-world" feats like in ID4)


But probably they wont care much about us, or have pacific intentions, while trying not to destabilize our social, scientific and general life on planet earth

It would seem logical that for them to be able to get "here" in
the first place, they would have to be more highly evolved than
us. Perhaps they evolved from an asexual form of life, or evolved
to that state. Perhaps they can easily produce any food supply
they would need. Those two traits could have great effects on
their "personalities" or intensions towards us. They could have
long mastered the physics of their own bodies, eliminated cell
mutations, cell aging to some extent, their bodies producing
perfect new cells to replace the ones that eventually did age.
They could produce the ideal "food" or energy pill for their bodies
from common elements found throughout the universe. They
could then live VERY long lives, barring some type of accidental
death. They could be free of many of the emotions that make
us human as a race. If they were almost immortal, procreation
would become a handicap rather than a necessity. Being asexual
could eliminate many of the "distracting" emotions and instints
that we feel, leaving them a with a very boring life by our standards.
Our "primative" lifestyle, ability to procreate, and use of our planets
resources could be of great interest to them. Why would such a
species feel hostile towards use? We would have nothing they
needed, except as a subject of study to further their knowledge.
Curiosity may be one of the few pleasures they still have left.

They could have long mastered the physics of their own bodies, eliminated cell mutations, cell aging to some extent, their bodies producing perfect new cells to replace the ones that eventually did age.

They could produce the ideal "food" or energy pill for their bodies
from common elements found throughout the universe. They
could then live VERY long lives, barring some type of accidental
death. They could be free of many of the emotions that make
us human as a race. If they were almost immortal, procreation
would become a handicap rather than a necessity.


That's my point. Sure, such aliens probably do exist. They will not have faced such things as starvation or jealousy in a long time and learned to get along with one another. But I doubt every advanced race has chosen to limit its growth in numbers. Life has a built in drive to expand and reach out. What happens when this static immortal race meets an equally advanced race of savage competitive predators?

Assuming the immortals aren't indestructible they will still die when fired at. In a universe entirely made up of peaceful alien races save for one, its that one which will expand outwards and enslave or devour its neighbours. They will be the empire builders. The main force in the universe. Pessimist that I am I can't help but think there is more than "one" fierce alien race out there.

I find the idea of peaceful species rather difficult to imagine. No such thing exists on our world and evolution is driven by survival of the fittest and most determined. From sperm, only one in millions survives. Then on to babies, perhaps one in ten youngsters reaches adulthood. Then the adults must compete for females. Species that turn their backs on competition will either devolve or simply stop progressing. Meanwhile, other more violent strains of life will continue advancing.

We humans compete from childhood onwards. For money and a nice car and a high prestige career. Everybody knows deep down that its a dog eat dog society. Everybody from the government downwards is under the thumb of somebody else. There is little real difference between the FBI and the organised crime syndicates they battle. Each is fighting over the same turf. Every nation would like to have more power than its neighbours and every person would like to rule the world.

If we travelled to another world and it was inhabited by less advanced life then somebody would find a way of making money from it.

Some Aliens might be more advanced than us in some ways and less in others. Sure. Thats what I mean by equal to us. Maybe not exactly equal but it would take centuries to discern all our comparative strengths and weaknesses during a war.

Sorry, this is really long isn't it. Got carried away.

I would just want to say that the aliens visited Earth for sure, you know! And if they did (posibility is always 50 percent, but think about all saucers that have been seen!!!) they most likely contacted elephants. WHY? Because elephants are intelligent living beings and they have mind and they are aware of they existance! Elephants even have better, MUCH better memory than we humans. They are comunicating with some voice that is ultra something...

roadkill brings up an intresting point and while reading it a (gasp) thought hit me.

Our world knows competition and evolution. What drives evolution? It is the competition?

Allow me lay another possibility on you. What if the dominate driver is raditation? Either from the sun or from the various radioactive componets within our own planet? Need I mention the background level of raditation that is always present within our enviroment?

If an alien system did not have these componets, would they advance through evolution? If they didn't, chances are good that their aggressive tendenacies would be much lower or possibilty higher if the raditation was higher. Higher levels of raditation would encourage more mutations over time, driving evolution at a faster pace.

this is 1 thing that bugs me about 90% of scifi. I have yet to hear a reasonable argument for aliens coming here to wipe out or enslave mankind.

- they want our minerals? the universe is littered with them, why come all the way here?

- they need us or our biosphere for food? again i have trouble believing they have food problems if they have the resources/technology to get here.

- they want to wipe us out to horde the universes resources for themselves? on a the scale of the universe conquering our planet is like fighting a world war over a dime.

- they need our dna? this reason seems the silliest of all to me but if it were so they could just steal a couple hundred people and make all they need.


unless every square meter of the entire universe is crammed (i mean every body in all of space is populated and/or mined completely) and our solar system is the very last one to be exploited, the only reason i can fathom that anyone would even consider coming here is simple curiosity.

there is just too much room out there to bother with a fight IMO (even tho it would be very 1 sided in their favour im sure). Its not that i think all life must be wise and peaceful necessarily but i can't imagine a scenario (with aggressive aliens) that would make the trip worth it, no matter how xenophobic they may be.

I can only consider this from my simple human perspective, of course, so there could be some weird alien reason we can't fathom but its hard for me to believe that WHATEVER they require could not be accessed much closer to home.

I think Footfall had a reasonable premise.
In that story, the aliens were from a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri. Their social advancement was behind ours, but their technology was well advanced (no major physics breakthroughs, more like better engineering) because they 'inherited' the scientific knowledge legacy from an earlier highly advanced species on their planet, including knowledge of Earth.

The current species had expanded rapidly in a colonial conquest sort of way, and the invasion of Earth seems a natural extension of this colonialism (imagine if Victorian England had the knowledge of new lands on the next star, and the means to get there).

The aliens, being advanced and all, probably wouldn't need the earth for its minerals etc. because the technological level required to visit earth from lightyears distance implies that they have the technology to use asteroid belts etc. for their resources.

SLAVES, unlikely, their tec-level must be such that most of the work is done by machines.

FOOD, a possibillity! while they can extract minerals etc. from any rock in a solar system, the earth is rather special for it's life harbouring atmosphere that allows to grow food. Wether this food will be grain, green slime , or shredded human beings , depends on the diet of the alien visitor.

PRE-EMPTIVE war.
Humans are evil, we are the kind that probably will not be friendly when we visit other planets, also we are progressing to a tec-level that in a few hundred years we might become serious competition for other space-empires. Better to throw us back to stone-age now before we take over...

I really don't think that alien metabolisms would be similar enough to our own for them to find earthly organisms edible; when humanity eventually travels to the stars,
and if one day we find another earth type planet,
it will almost certainly require radical genetic engineering to survive on the local biosphere...

okay, so the alien invaders may arrive here, and then get themselves re-engineered so that they can eat pizza and salad- but this does not seem a very agressive act to me;
perhaps they will bring their own biota and actively replace the indigestible Earth life - then we are in trouble.
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pete,

...they 'inherited' the scientific knowledge legacy from an earlier highly advanced species on their planet, including knowledge of Earth.

The current species had expanded rapidly in a colonial conquest sort of way, and the invasion of Earth seems a natural extension...

wow, thats a good one! best scenario ive heard yet.

Here it is on Amazon: Footfall by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345323440/qid=1057796376/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-8478332-3108737?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

The Freefall book sounds similar to a show I saw years ago.

I think it was about 5+ years ago and on channel 5 on cable.

It was a anime or somthing like that.

It had things like asteroids being used as weapons and the space shuttle being armed with lasers and stuff like that.

Anyone remember it?:bugeye:

Kabuki wrote Elephants even have better, MUCH better memory than we humans.

Sorry Kabuki but I gotta set you straight on that one. It's an old wives take. An urban myth. How it started I have no idea. The truth is that elephants have shocking aweful memories. The attention span of a walnut.

Some interesting questions on why visitors might be nasty and invade us. Very interesting idea's. Why would they take what we have when space is so rich you ask.


My reply is why not. Imagine if humanity kept expanding as any viable species usually does without imposed limitations.

Humans could farm the oceans and deserts and feed the entire World in theory. If we divided all the living space out equally I'm sure everybody would have atleast several square metres of personal space too. We could also farm asteroids and Mars with some investment. We could live in habitats and recycle space minerals all day. Why don't we? Several reasons.

It's impractical, expensive and nobody wants to do it.

Firstly, turning the entire planet into a food factory would be a crime against nature. Who would want to inhabit such a boring sterile environment with no wild places?

Would any of you sacrifice your cushy existance to go live on a claustrophobic hollowed out asteroid? For the sake of the starving multitudes? So we could all live equally? Forget travelling the solar system. That would be a waste of precious fuel resources and there is nothing to see out there anyway but other farms.

The truth is that a powerful minority lives in luxury while the majority suffers and strives to improve their lot. The wealthy enjoy a great standard of living thanks to the poor. The poor live on dreams. What keeps them going is striving to become one of the elite. Thats how the world works. The top dogs get first feed and the rest of us the scraps they leave us. Its the ultimate pyramid system with all of us desperately trying to climb to the top.

Aliens don't want to live on recycled space debris. Just like us and the "fithp" they are going to want as much as they can take. Ideally to live in open spaces feeling the sun on their faces and ordering menials like us about at their leisure. They are going to want the best standard of living available to them.

That is what ultimately drove people to colonise America. Better opportunities existed in the new world than the old with its overpopulated cities full of rich established families. It isn't easier to live in space. A big terrestrial planet is the most secure and friendly place to life.

One with primitive natives who can be dazzled with beads while you buy their land out from under them.

Just my thoughts.

I have no doubt that many space faring civilisations may think like this; the effort of building interstellar spaceships might be justified by the desire to conquer, and for power; power over other creatures.
This strategy may hinge upon the availability of comfortable earth-like worlds- if they are plentiful, it may be worthwhile setting off into the galaxy to colonise earth-like planets and nothing else.
If you find that some earth-like planets have inhabitants to exploit- so much the better!

Unfortunately it is much more likely that earth-like planets are going to be very rare, and even if a colonising civilisation finds one there may be several things that make it difficult to live on -

all the lifeforms are likely to be poisonous; either you will find trace elements in the environment that are toxic to you but not the local life, or the amino acids are the wrong chirality; many things are likely to be different on another world.

No, most environments which a colonising civilisation will live in will be ones they make themselves; this is a good thing, as you can design them to order, using the abundant energy and resources in every solar system.
Artificial environments will no doubt be established all over the home solar sysyem before serious colonisaton gets under way- see this essay (http://www.orionsarm.com/whitepapers/vision.html).
Most construction work will be carried out by automated systems... if these are not available , it is not worth going to the stars at all- you would have to travel hundreds or thousands of light years to find a race to enslave, rather than 'just' four and a half as envisaged in Footfall.
(of course this doesn't stop the robots from being oppressed- sentient rights for all! was the cry!)
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Would any alien visitors be friendly?

It seems to me that this would depend on their reasons for visiting us. If they came here specifically out of a desire/need to find other 'lifeforms', then I suppose they should be friendly. If they however came as explorers/merchants/traders/wariors, etc their intentions might turn hostile if profit-- depending of course on whether our notion of trade/profit is similar to theirs, etc. I don't understand why some people are talking of minerals, food, etc. It seems to me that if a greater civilization visited earth/us, we would be most valuable as a novelty. Imagine musuems filled with 'earthlings'.

I have no doubt that many space faring civilisations may think like this; the effort of building interstellar spaceships might be justified by the desire to conquer, and for power; power over other creatures.

IMHO, this is science fiction. We KNOW what interstellar travel will be like. It will take years, generations even. It will be nothing like a bombing run. When they arrive, just getting here will be the whole point. As for colonization, don't we usually check to make sure there's somewhere to go before we load up the wife and kids? That would imply a round trip and a second visit.

Well it semms that most of what i was reading in this topic was about aggressive aliens, and some threat of war under frist contact ect.......
Fact remains that such warfare will not invovle direct contact, a alein race of intelligence would understand the mechanics of are solar system and thge surrounding stars, and simply just destroy a star near are solar system or even within a 100 light years, which would changfe the chemistry on earth eliminating the human race or all life. simple as that. end of subject. we would never even see it comiing. humans will have to advance to a stage where they can defend the stars in are local system of stars to gain any stablity with a confontation with a alien race. without the ablity to defend just the gaseous suns in are local system humans would not have a chance.

In general humans have much more to compete with than aliens, as there are only around 10,000 to 15,000 years left in which the the earth is livable. why is this simple the earth and it sun are traveling away from alpha centauri are closest solar neighbor which is current responsible for the present state of chemistry on earth, its gravitional bindind with are sun make common chemicals possible. H20, SiO4 ect. the farther we get from alpha the more unstabe earth chemistry gets. in 9,000 years are closest star will then be bernards star, and it will become the next agent of chemical stablity. the current chemistry that we have on earth has only been in existance for the time that we have been bound to alphas system, we are currently in the down phase or seperation phase. so when you look at the fossil record that is from a time frame when alpha had a more prominet effect on earth chemistry.
in addtion to these even occuring in the next 9,000 years there us also the event of polar reversal which occur about every 5,000 to 7,000 years these events completely reduce life to its most primiative states each time nearly destroying life complete and changeing the entire landscape of the earth, the loss of the magnetic feild which controlls the rate of human intelligences, reduces the function of human intelligence to primate,and the function of mind become those that operate the bodily function rather than conjector and invention, simply the existance of a intelligent race of human will be wipe out completely by such events of pole reversal, both in physical record and in the minds of humans suriving, in short the last dominate intelligent race on earth before the last pole reversal could have been the elephant, the reptile, or bird and nothing like a mammal such as human. seeing this event has a prominet effect on the scale of life and domince, human intellingence and domince is measured by the speed of the magnetic poles motion in the progressive years of the past.
Given the event of pole reversal occurs every 5,000 years to say there would only two time periods left for intelligent life to evolve where each will begin to reach itr peak of intelligence about the time of the pole reversal which will destroy it, as it created its itelligence. if humans do not take this event in serious nature then there are the possiblity of two other species that might make it and survive to the time when chemistry completey fails on earth relative to alphas system influence on are earthyly chemistry.
In general humans have to make through two loops one the magnetic pole reversal, and two the change in chemical stablity marked for to occur in about 9,000 years.
this means that it is highly inportant for humans to be successful in develpoing a way to transfer society, and its large population through such events of a magnetic feild reversal, his allow the achivement of a bases for continuiing a human race that will develope to the capablity of surving the chemical stablity change marked in 9,000 years or 11,000 AD, it also places the human race on the stage of becaome a interstellar traveler capable of alein contact that is meaningful.

So then we can see that the human race has a lot more to fear than a alien race. and on that you can bet your last dollar.

But hey after all if the human race can not look to foresee the events and to design to surive them, then they might as well be food for a alien race because they will all be dead anyway. Except those few survives that have trun into canibals and are digging dead bodies out of the frozen earth to eat the carcase during the long 400 years of the pole reversal. I mean really after all 6,000,000,000 dead bodies is a lot of carcass and should last 400 years.


If the aliens won't eat you i will


DWAYNE D.L.RABON

Originally posted by filibuster
IMHO, this is science fiction. We KNOW what interstellar travel will be like. It will take years, generations even. It will be nothing like a bombing run. When they arrive, just getting here will be the whole point. As for colonization, don't we usually check to make sure there's somewhere to go before we load up the wife and kids? That would imply a round trip and a second visit.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, but I agree with you totally. It will take hundreds of years to get from one system to another. I believe however that the desire for conquest may sometimes overcome the problem of time lag...
especially if the aggression is carried out by robotic or automatic warships.
if you imagine a widespread civilsation of colonies; each one struggling to adapt their system to a livable environment, it may be a viable strategy to invade half- colonised systems and take over their infrastructure;
but alien intelligent species are likely to be so rare, widely separated and different to the hypothetical empire builders that it seems unlikely that a policy of alien enslavement would ever work.
-----------------
As far as checking out a solar system before the colonisation ships get there, before too long we might be able to do this ourselves remotely; the various terrestrial planet finder telescopes will be based on widely separated satellites, allowing for interferometry; coupled with a wide range of other methods it may be that the solar systems of all nearby systems will be well known before any craft are sent.
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No, most environments which a colonising civilisation will live in will be ones they make themselves; this is a good thing, as you can design them to order, using the abundant energy and resources in every solar system.

This is an assumption based on what exactly? I don't see people living under the ocean. We have the technology to send people to the moon so building undersea cities is perfectly feasible. It's just too expensive as a solution to housing people. The same for space habitats. Sure we can do it but who would want to live out there or pay for the development? Missions to other Stars are different. Those who feel hard done by back home would welcome exploratory missions to other planetary systems. Especially if telescopes have revealed the existance of habitable planets. Remember that they might have much bigger telescopes than us.

Distance? How can you assume sentient life in other parts of the galaxy would have a problem with century long flights? For one thing they might have a completely different psychology to us. Many life forms put the fate of their young ahead of themselves. They might send frozen embryo's. They might even have perfected suspended animation for themselves or have a natural ability for it. Like Bears hibernating in the winter but more advanced. Many worlds might have long winters which promote such adaptations. Perhaps they are longer lived than we are. Your immortal aliens which someone mentioned earlier wouldn't care about 500 years in space. Some of their books might take that long to read.

Also, we don't know that life here will be poisonous to them or that poisonous food is any obstacle. They might have brought along their own food crops and farm animals for introduction here. So long as there is soil to grow things and an empty land save for a few savages ofcourse.

Think of what drives us and all other life on Earth. That seems the most likely source of motivation in other life and the only examples we can draw upon. Life puts its own interests ahead of those of other life. That is a natural survival instinct. Why do many people here on Earth want to colonise Mars? To get away from stifling Governments on Earth. As population increases this urge to escape will become more widespread. Some day we WILL colonise Mars and everywhere else. Then people will want to escape to the stars.

In other words those Aliens who choose to take on the risk of interstellar travel and the chance of a new life and new destiny for their children will likely be the malcontents, rebels, adventurers, mentally deranged, revolutionaries and criminally disposed among the species. Those not happy to accept their lot in life but prepared to gamble everything in the hope of more power. Exactly the kind of individuals who would use primitives as slaves.

roadkill,

Since we have to use life as we understand it as a model for this discussion i think you make really good points.

I wonder though, will we colonize even mars if our species remain so myopic, confrontational and greedy? My point is, with projects so massive as interplanetary/intergalactic colonization, a degree of cultural cohesion and societal maturing seems necessary - in other words its hard for me to believe intelligent aliens are colonizing simply because their own society is spiralling out of control, one step ahead of chaos. Id think any successfully space faring species would have to have their house in order (so to speak) before being able to manage such a gigantic and complex endeavour. If famine, overpopulation or political insecurity is their only motivation it seems unlikely they could achieve the necessary co-operation to pull it off. IMO species like this would likely fail and never leave their solar system.

Im a bit of an optimist so my glasses may be a bit more rosy than i realize but this is how it seems to me.

just a thought,
Buff

Ok key to base point.

The galaxay is full of stars and planets, solar systems, the one that are useful and that posses the ablity for intelligent life are ones that have a variable number of planets and several closes suns in the immediate area of the given solar system, inaddition local stars play a large role in atomic stablity for that solar system. here it is clear why hydrogen and helium remain main particles of what we see in stars and large planets surrounding distant suns, the galaxy is not yet concentrated enough to contain mass solar systems, depening on area as our solar system is out on the edge and in the less dense.
The majority of planets that we could find would be large planets of give elemetns such as a planet of carbon, oxygen, or silver, titainium ect... other forms would be planets that consist of layers of each element uncombined with others, to say planets with a layer of carbon then a layer of aluminium and then a layer of boron, most of these planets in the lighter elemets, depending on the complexity of the local star group relative to that solar system.
therefor to a alien race a form of commodity would be heavy metals and elements cesium ect...thorium. these type of atoms would have a value even if synthically produced by aliens. and would be most abundant in areas with complexed local stars groups and planetary system such as our own.
the distribution of such solar systems would under a even distribution in the galaxy scheme occur about every 40 to 125 light years, hypothically about 400 in a striaght line(300) and with in the diameter of our solar system some 1000 different solar systems, many of them with out the complexted organization for atmoic stablity, the most complexted regipon being the area closet to the center of our galaxy where many suns share interaction, infact much heavier atoms would exist.

with the complexity of solar systems and atomic stablity come also the complexity nessacary for life, this establishish that life will be older than that on earth by say 20,000 light years in general terms, but as oder by as much as say 10,000,000 light years or the sort, also life being closer at center regions of the galaxy such life forms of intelligence would see our solar system before we see them and see us more clearly. certainly this area of aliens will have encountered solars systems and abundant mineral, elements heavy and light before even encountering us or reaching us.

there vaule of earth and our solar system is the fact that we are further out in the solar system and on the path of exploration and passage into the cosmic space and provide a area where there is complext structure stabity, for harboring life and heavy metals. aliens intrested in our solar system would be more interested in venus and jupiter and possibly mars as regions of complextity, probably more so alpha centauri as it has a binary sun system with greater gavity intreactance, for aliens there are much better canidates for living than earth.

but let look at the evoultion of such life forms, aliens coming from the center of the galaxy would have to survive frequent magnetic pole reversal that occur with much shorter time frames than earhs 5,000 to 7,000 years, this means that there evoultion would have have to be much faster, like wise adaption,morhpisim ect.... this sugggest a more primite life form or light being in the really close regions near the galaxy center and pushes more stable forms of life in to the middle regions, or outter edges of the galaxys sprial arms, such as earth, this simple fact push alien life even closer to are solar system in locaton.
as the structure of life and it evoultion depend on the magentic feild of a planet for aliens the prime candiate for living in out solar system would be jupiter or saturn when saturns fueld returns, this is be cause of gravity and complexity, and magnetic feild strenght. because of aliens general location closer to gravity concentration of the galaxy they would be compsoed of heavier elements,and require the lights of elements as a fluid of the body suchas helium, nitrogen,oxygen, hydrogen, possibly carbon,as a fluid, but for build there physical structure of thier body they would require a much heavier element than carbon, carbon may be a vital mineral such as chromium is to the human endoctorine system. so simply humans would not meet the nutrional requirements of a alien, however humans are 90% water so maybe a good drink, under any event there is a large ocean out there and a skyful of nitrogen.



Dwayne D.L.Rabon

It suddenly occurred to me while rereading the posts here that although science and technology are being used to hypothesize (as it should be), the discussion has moved into something more akin to philosophy. I mean, one can only extrapolate from what science knows so far to a point before your just guessing wildly. It all starts from good solid physics and chemistry but the final conclusions being offered like facts are closer assumption and belief i think.

i think this thread may be in the wrong category, perhaps General Philosophy would be more appropriate?

just a thought.

I wonder though, will we colonize even mars if our species remain so myopic, confrontational and greedy?
Buffy

I feel myopic thinking is the key. Greed is good. Confrontation is good. They are the driving forces of exploration. The US went to the moon to beat the Russians. Don't underestimate the dark side of human nature. The explosives necessary to propel a rocket are derived originally from munitions. Ye olde black powder for cannon and muskets paved the way for space travel.


The majority of planets that we could find would be large planets of give elemetns such as a planet of carbon, oxygen, or silver, titainium ect... other forms would be planets that consist of layers of each element uncombined with others, to say planets with a layer of carbon then a layer of aluminium and then a layer of boron, most of these planets in the lighter elemets, depending on the complexity of the local star group relative to that solar system.




We have only identified a very small number of extrasolar rocky bodies approaching the dimensions of our Earth. All special cases and none as far as I know orbiting the habitable zones of suitable stars. Where did you get the information that most terrestrial worlds will be as you describe. I have seen nothing to indicate such findings are accurate.

this establishish that life will be older than that on earth by say 20,000 light years in general terms, but as oder by as much as say 10,000,000 light years or the sort
Dwayne

Light years are a measure of distance and not time. I fail to see your reasoning behind this statement. Even 10 million years is a very short time astronomically speaking. On an evolutionary scale it is insignificant. Some advanced animals including mammals have not changed at all in 50 million years or more.

there vaule of earth and our solar system is the fact that we are further out in the solar system and on the path of exploration and passage into the cosmic space and provide a area where there is complext structure stabity, for harboring life and heavy metals. aliens intrested in our solar system would be more interested in venus and jupiter and possibly mars as regions of complextity, probably more so alpha centauri as it has a binary sun system with greater gavity intreactance, for aliens there are much better canidates for living than earth.

Sorry but I can't understand what you are trying to say. Is english your second language. No offence but your logic is very difficult to follow and seems to be based on far too many assumptions. Many of us are being philosophical in trying to come to grips with this slippery topic. Myself included. Philosophy is a great tool for reasoning out problems when experimentation and evidence are not readily available. It can provide ideas for new testing methods. We have to be careful not to make too many assumptions however. Basing one "fact" on another on another on another and so on only to later find your original premise was flawed can be embarassing. Galileo was guilty of that and so were the ancient greeks. Still, the ancient greeks did theorise about a round Earth. They also theorised about life on other Worlds orbiting other stars. It's when you pile on too many unproven assumptions that you fall off track.

roadkill

The US went to the moon to beat the Russians. Don't underestimate the dark side of human nature.


While its true that confrontation got us to the moon it proved to be too little motivation to keep us there. Beating "the other guys" only lasts as a motivator as long as "the other guys" are a threat, since our friends and enemies change periodically we need a better reason to maintain such difficult propositions. Without long term co-operation (i grudgingly agree that greed can accomplish this) i question whether even america could pull it off for the duration without the assistance of many other countries.


buff

Absolutely true. We have seen the US stuck in a rut ever since Russia fell apart. That combined with Globalisation and general world peace has seen progress into space somewhat stifled. I'm resting my hopes on the X prize which I see as our only hope of obtaining affordable realistic spaceflight in our lifetimes. Ironically enough one of the competitors has re-invented the V2. A Canadian team has reworked this lost technology which was last assembly lined cheaply back in WW2 and is arguably the first space capable rocket ever invented although it was more aptly called a missile. Instead of a tonne of explosive warhead they will filling it with life support systems and three passengers. If successful in building this vehicle then irrespective of whether or not they win the contest, they will have proven a 60 year old design more capable than NASA's most state of the art efforts. Nobody can tell me that war doesn't ignite innovation. Not without me laughing out loud.

:D

Stars with Heavy Metals more likely to have planets. (http://ibpro.ikonboard.com/spacemessageboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=9;t=147)

This is interesting. Has a couple of links to recent stories at Space Daily. It seems that stars low in metal tend not to have planets. That sounds logical. Maybe this was what Dwayne was trying to say when he described star systems trading in metals.

"We now know that stars which are abundant in heavy metals are five times more likely to harbor orbiting planets than are stars deficient in metals. If you look at the metal-rich stars, 20 percent have planets. That's stunning."

That averages out to more than double the expected figure of stars with planets if my mediocre math skills are correct.

"The metals are the seeds from which planets form," added colleague Jeff Valenti, an assistant astronomer at the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) in Baltimore, Md.

Since planets are necessary for life it means an increased likelihood of life in our stellar neighbourhood.

Fischer said the new data suggest why metal-rich stars are likely to develop planetary systems as they form. The data are consistent with the hypothesis that heavier elements stick together easier, allowing dust, rocks and eventually planetary cores to form around newly ignited stars.

I'm not really surprised. This seems really obvious and I can't help but wonder why nobody thought to check earlier. It might throw Dwaynes theory out the window (sorry Dwayne). If large amounts of metals are necessary for the creation of sizable planets and consequently life then there will be no Aliens with a metal shortage.

Ok a few points


one allow me to correct a figure and statement, alien life would be around 20,000 years ahead of us in development and orginzation and every move that we make, time wise and as much as 13.5 to 15.5 billion years older than us, this is a simple fact as they are closer to the moment of reaction,therfore the likly hood of thier creation. In addtion formations solar systems, grouping of large bodies of mass that make life possible occur closer to the center of gravity of the galaxy prior to the exterior regions of the galaxy, earth and its solar system are located on the outer portion of one sprial arm of our galaxy, and much less closer to the center of the arm which acts as a center of gravity than other suns and solar systems making life in our reion of the galaxy or spiral arm rare if not a singulairty. it is not a theroy that gravity provides the base for life, obversation will tell you where your feet are.
The complextity of gravity intreaction allow life in addtion, large bodies of mass determine the atomic stablity of atoms that make life possible, atomic life span is bases on the reactance of energy with the atomic body, say if you will conservation of energy which is determined by energy exspenditure, the ballance of the back ground energy of a region of space determine the stablity and chemical reactance of a atom, example ionic states of a element, isotpes, + and - interactance of a atomic body are all based on the background consant of a region of space, for example earth it is 288 kelvins, our solar system 50 kelvins, our galaxy 10 kelvins the cosmos 2 kelvins and being the base unit of back ground constant, in these various regions of space atoms prefrom differently and are stable as a body for only given periods of time.
Example superconductivity at 0 degrees kelvins. the event than thermal and radtion energy are attracted to the coldest regions is due to vaccum, meaning that a atom will increase its energy out put in a region of space that it 2 degress at a greater rate than in 50 degrees, this effects the stablity of its life time causing transmutation or decay into less elements such as hydrogen and helium the main product of decay. the end result is a cosmos full of helium and hydrogen. in regions of space where gravity increases, radation increases and changes the rate of energy exspended by the atom allowing conservation and stablity. this stablity occurs closer to the center of gravity of our galaxy, producing life thier prior to our solar system.

point--- the event that many stars are not situated within the close proxcimity of other stars, our binary star system, defines that chemistry for those areas is inert, meaning the event of chemical binding is limited, the event of distrubance, or sifting is null and as well atomic stablity, leaving many planetary bodies as
blocks of single elements by marority, pure carbon, as many star bodies have at least some neighbor their will exist some chemical cohesion simple mono chemicals. from new view hydrogen and helium remain stable or abundant not only because they are atomic by products of nuclear decay, but because they have a high energy signture that is capable of feeding the heat sink of the cosmic background constant at a rate that allows stablity, for this reason gravity begins to form in a congreation of helium and hydrogen, and results in the formation of other atoms, the rate of other atoms produced is dertermined by the amount of hydrogen and helium centered to a area in that region of the cosmos or galaxy and the other forming bodies,or suns, planets that allow for the complexity of heavy atoms. with out this complextiy og gravity and variable change in background constant in the region the area remains hydrogen and helium, a large enough mass of hydrogen and helium may form small amounts of heaier atoms, say silicon, potassium, aluminium.
simply the current bodies found and published as planets remain by majority as reproted gaseous planets, that will cahnge drastically when we look at triple systems, and binary stars with neighbors, much like are own, but these systems of interactance remain at the centers of gravity, the sprial arm of the galaxy and it more central region, where in such case it also becomes more difficult to detect plainly because of radation blockage, a increase in the background constant of our galaxy. simply put it is easier to see from the point of lights orgin than from looking directly into the light.

note, the center of our galaxy is hollow, likewise the earth.

Aliens that come to this region would come to this region because it offers a complexed orginzation of gravity that allows life to be stable, and it located in a region of our galaxy the outter rim to say that offers very little gravity complexity naturally, so it is kind of like a oasis for our region, exspecially so when aliens come from a area that is normally higher in gravity influence. our solar system also offer such life forms a place to do early reseach in exploring appoaches to traveling the cosomic distances given our location in the galaxy. Aliens that come to this region would more than likly find elements of heavy atomic weight of value, and it would more than likly be a means of valued exchange in there own world,where heavy elements are more common, the heaviest would have a siginicant vaule, exspecially so in our region which would have less heavy elements than in thier home region, there for heavy elements become a commodity, more than likly in addtion to heavy elements having a value, complexed chemicals would also have a a value like for instance carbon bucky balls.

Taking in to account that aliens come from a region of greater gravity, stronger magnetic feilds are nessacary to sustain life, as well such would be a natural occurance of planets in the central regions of our galaxy, this means that alien would fell more comfortable in our solar system on a planet such as jupiter, which offers a complexed gravity system with its 19 moons, and strong magnetic feild, and much greater gravity than earth, simply because of backgroung energy they might take a certain liking to venus, in addtion to gravity. Earth may prove to be more habitable to aliens when the magnetic feild is at its full strength, since it is in detieration and geting worse over the years as we approach the next pole reversal due some time soon,the earth would seem less habitale for aliens as we get closer to the reversal, and become more habital 400 years after the reversal when the magnetic feild of earth as rekindaled and gained its full strength.( maybe thats how alien where reported in history because earth was more habital for them then and they felt more comfortable and sociable, and with the weaking magnetic feild they decided to make contact less, and less openly and frequent; old stories) looking for aliens try the magnetic poles!!!


Dwayne D.L.Rabon

In fact I would go as far as to say we will avoid colonising the very very few Earth type worlds that we find- the biospheres of these worlds will be so precious and as I have said, very likely so toxic to us that we would be well advised to declare them space reserves and off-limits to everything but specially sterilised survey robots.
There is no doubt that we will eventually be able to detect Earth-like planets at a great distance, possibly hundreds of light years.

One strategy, which seems to be the one Roadkill is proposing, would be to only send missions to the systems containing Earth-like planets, and ignore the other systems. Perhaps if we are lucky half of these Earth-like worlds will not be actively poisonous to our metabolisms (although I doubt this very much) and we can live there with little environmental modification.

Meanwhile a competing group of colonists (or another alien species) is exploiting the other ninety-nine out of a hundred solar systems with no Earth- type worlds; the Earth- type only colonists will be very soon outnumbered.
Before we get to the stage of setting off to the so-called nearby stars we will no doubt have mastered the art of living in space habitats- some habitats, such as the Bishop Ring, have as much living space as India...
the lifestyle of the Space dwellers will be far superior and more flexible than those limited to Earth- like planets, as the habitats can be designed to order, and are not limited by concerns of global warming or pollution- heat and waste products can be vented to space, or more likely conserved for reuse.
_________________
SF worldbuilding at
http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html

Dwayne. Stop smoking whatever it is you are high on. Before your head explodes. The centre of the galaxy is certainly not hollow. It's a supermassive black hole. I'm straining hard to keep abreast of what you are trying to say but you go from one point to the next so rapidly its almost impossible.

I'll address a couple of points starting at the beginning but not the whole thing. It would take me all night and part of the next day.


alien life would be around 20,000 years ahead of us in development and orginzation and every move that we make, time wise and as much as 13.5 to 15.5 billion years older than us

How can you possibly make such an outragious statement? Twenty thousand years ahead of us! Where do you get this information? Fortean times? I don't mean to sound insulting and apologise if it comes out that way but for the life of me I can't understand where you derive your figures from. Evolution and technological progress doesn't obey linear graphs. It's jerky and unpredictable. We might become extinct tomorrow morning and another sentient race of road builders and moon walkers might not appear for many millions of years if ever. Age has little to do with it. There are too many factors to take into consideration and evolution remains largely a mystery.

this is a simple fact as they are closer to the moment of reaction,therfore the likly hood of thier creation. In addtion formations solar systems, grouping of large bodies of mass that make life possible occur closer to the center of gravity of the galaxy prior to the exterior regions of the galaxy,

Ok, you seem to be saying that life is more common and advanced closer to the centre of the galaxy. Actually, the increased proximity of stars to one another makes stable star systems rather less likely. One thing we do know about life is that it took billions of years to evolve here on Earth. Mass extinctions were helpful in nudging it along in entirely new directions and ultimately keeping it out of ruts but too much planetary wide catastrophe could keep life down. Not giving it enough opportunity to recover. Atleast thats what I think. Many stars are a tenth of a lightyear apart near the galactic core. Imagine the instability of a planetary disk.

I think that, should we ever come face to face with a technologically superior race, we would have absolutely nothing to fear from the encounter.

For any civilisation to survive long enough to develop interstellar, or even intergalactic, capabilities they would have to be extremely advanced as individuals not just members of an advanced society for: as we know from our own history, any societal system that places its own existence above that of the individual will eventually fail.

Alien civilisations would probably be anarchist (ie the individual rules his/her/its self) in nature without nationalities, racial biases, organised religions or any other distinctions that can be exploited by interested parties for their own ends.

Such a civilisation, then, would be socialogically incapable of waging a war.

As for the competition for resources, well, this argument carries no weight whatsoever because we are here discussing a race of beings that regard, perhaps, an entire galaxy as their backyard with all the unimaginable riches therein theirs for the taking.

The competition argument also presupposes that ET will be cursed with other human traits such as greed and wastefulness; they will have probably learnt, a long time ago, to take only what they need from their environment and not to manufacture frivolous, unnecessary artefacts with built in redundancy.

The question we should really be asking is how can we survive long enough to become, like ET, interstellar adventurers?

What we need, toward this end, is a common enemy that threatens the entire human race; an enemy that would require the resourcefulness of us all to defeat. There is such an enemy out there - it is not, however, an intelligent life form with designs on Mother Earth - it is an inanimate lump of rock coming tumbling towards us out of the void.

The time to start preparing for the arrival of our nemesis is now but, before we can even start this process, we need to unite as individuals - not just as nation states - so let us become like ET; let's 'alienise' ourselves so that we might get to know each other better and face our common doom shoulder to shoulder.

Ok. Let's presuppose ET (one ET race) is peaceful and as you say incapable of war and this race visits us. Being incapable of war means being incapable of violence, greed, avarice and suspicion. All the things which can lead to war. How would these enlightened beings defend themselves if I were to say pick up a rock and bash one over the head? The best form of defence is attack but as we have already ruled out warlike behaviour this is completely out of the question. Some kind of automated technological protection perhaps? In our society many people carry stun guns or mace. It's conceivable a more advanced race might have developed computers capable of registering a threat and triggering a defence system. Perhaps even some kind of force field. I would imagine any technology would require some degree of maintenance and this would entail a defence technician of sorts. Kind of violating the unwarlike stance of this entire race. For arguments sake I'll skip that particular conundrum. Nothing however is foolproof.

Suppose for a moment these trusting unwarlike beings are persuaded to come to a special dinner laid out in their honor. Set up in a picturesque part of the Gobi desert overlooking some nice foothills. Having no sense of war or deceit and all those other survival instincts we like to label barbaric they accept the invitation so as not to offend us. Then we nuke them to the four corners of the universe and take their technology.

Sound a little farfetched?

Captain Cook was invited to a banquet in his honor by Tongan or New Zealand Chiefs. I forget which. It was a trap and while the crew dined on lobster and fresh fruit several canoes went out to steal their ship. Cook came within a whisker of losing everything and I do mean everything. The "primitive" people who outsmarted him and very nearly took his ship were cannibals. It was only dumb luck that saved him and his crew from the cooking pot.

I don't think any race averse to war would last long in the big bad universe. For one thing, they would perish the instant they met a similarly advanced race not averse to war.

Every empire this World has ever seen was created with blood. Not because its a human preoccupation but because force is the only way of uniting anything.

I agree with you there, Roadkill; any gentle peaceloving civilisation is likely to have some nasty defence technology hidden away, just in case a warmongering bunch of idiots attack;
see my little story here (http://www.orionsarm.com/galactography/Pluton_Volume.html)- the Muuh system of response is capable of acting by itself when danger threatens;
never trust that an unknown alien is friendly, even when it looks like it might be smiling...
__________________
SF worldbuilding at
http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html

Hi Roadkill

I've a feeling that ET would take a rain cheque on your invitation to dinner.

In fact I think that he will probably stay well clear of the human race until such a time comes that he; along with, perhaps, the galactic federation, deems us mature enough to play ball with the grown-ups.

Who knows - ET might even be constrained by some galactic statute that debars advanced races from interfering with the developement of emergent civilisations.

To know how far along the road to maturity we have travelled he would, of course, have to keep an eye on us so the next time you are out late walking the dog and you spot something strange in the heavens give it a wave and show your good intentions.

Keep watching the skies.

Best of luck

Peter Dunn

Roadkill:
"Absolutely true. We have seen the US stuck in a rut ever since Russia fell apart. That combined with Globalisation and general world peace has seen progress into space somewhat stifled."

I would suggest that you have been in something of a rut since the shuttle was up and running. On the other hand, look atht e way technology has spread into our lives, from the point that your new car probably has as much computing power as the lunar modules, to the more advanced alloys and composites in use. Except the point is that they are being used for narrow minded commecrial purposes. We are as it were building a base of useful technology and engineering abilitiees that will enable us to leap further in a cheaper and easier way than if we'd simply kept running onwards from Appollo.

As for Dwayne D L rabon, its best to ignore him, i've foudn him in the earth sciences bit in a thread overrun by creationists, and hes as nutty there.


Anywayback on topic, scifi has explored probably most of hte variosu scenarios discussed here, including a short sotry i have read recently where hte human space ship is movign from star to star, not finding any planets, and htis is information that will confound the current best theory of why planets form. So it finds one, that looks like its been bombed fomr space, is sitll radioactive, lands, finds it habitable, no natives then gets met by another spaceship, the emissary from which says there was a huge war in this reagion of hte galaxy, where a rogue, aggressive race expanded from its home planet and kept going, and it took the entire galaxy to subdue them, destroying all the plaents in the zone which the erath ship had been exploring. Then teh earth exploreres get killed, cos humans are the ones who did all that damage, and a death sentence was passed against the entire race.

Nowi am on the side of htose who say that if they get into space, theyre likely to have sorted out their fighitng etc abilities enough so as to not want to kill us straight away. But on a purely economic calculaiton, they might like jsut ot kill us off and take the planet. There is no other reason relaly to invade. same goes for trade, all those sotries abotu interstellar trade, unless we get FTL that works very easily, and cheaply in energy terms, forget it, theres nothing except information and templates (DNA, seeds, etc) that cant be replicated somewhere. except individual humans.

So, we'd better hope that theyre nice aliens.

Thats an interesting story. I've read an increasing number of tales from the Alien perspective of late. Entertaining bits of fluff and certainly thought provoking. I think we should begin to specify meanings for "good" and "evil" here. It's fine to say Aliens will be nice but what exactly does that mean?

I remember one book I read about a race who are visited by smelly furless creatures and come to accept them as part of their World. They don't recognise them as being from the Stars. They have become revered as intelligent and wise. They are ofcourse humans and the story only gives the Alien perspective. The star of the story is an intelligent youngster who joins the academy. A school set up by the humans. There he is encouraged to ask questions and experiment with nature. The humans obviously have some longterm goal but it isn't specified and they don't hand out technology. They want the locals to figure things out for themselves.

The young Alien is concerned about a pest that kills off crops and with subtle guidance not disimilar to what you might hear from the Dalai Lama he is given the tools and confidence to investigate the problem scientifically. He concludes that the worms in the water ways are the larval form of the flying plague. He then realises that killing the larval stage can save food crops. He decides to spread this knowledge far and wide but to his horror is kicked out of the university. His findings are given to a dimmer student who probably wouldn't even understand them and that guy gets all the credit.

Not to be stopped so easily he sets up his own buisness selling an agricultural pesticide to farmers. The first such technology on the planet. Farmers are delighted until the value of the crop plummets from overabundance. Thousands go bankrupt. The humans had foreseen this problem and had tried to prevent it the only ways possible. By persuasion and then attempting to control the spread of the technology. Yet they are still ultimately responsible for this outcome.

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. There is no black and white in nature. Everything is shades of grey. To the Aliens in this story who eventually learned more about humans, we were evil. Even though we were actually trying to make them more like us. An endeavour which to our way of thinking was good.

We cannot possibly guess the moral belief systems Aliens might posess or the ethical standards they might wish to impose on us. I very much doubt they will match our own. An alien race might for instance think cannibalism perfectly acceptable. Something we would find horrific. They might decide we need reeducating rather than them.

We cannot possibly guess the moral belief systems Aliens might posess or the ethical standards they might wish to impose on us. I very much doubt they will match our own. An alien race might for instance think cannibalism perfectly acceptable. Something we would find horrific. They might decide we need reeducating rather than them.
Of course if the Aliens practiced cannibalism that would be their business, as at least it means they wouldn't be eating humans; :)

having said that, if they decided to reeducate us to believe that cannibalism was not only moral, but obligatory, we would be eating human meat ourselves...

Well I see that the insult have started, most certainly the things that ihve read so far from various comments has been just wild ideas with out any scientific base other than aliens are different than us ect....... the reality is that what i have given some base to the discussion rather than i want ideas as projected by such as road kill ect......
So roadkill you act to question and offer extepolar ideas, and then act to slander a scientific approach and analogy, and that makes for real weak discussion on aliens and encounters with them as your ideas just fill the gaps with your wants and discriminations of aliens.
Oh and gurthie who are you to call nutty have you read your own posts as of late, and to think you had the nerve to ask me about magnetic pole reversals and their next occurance when just about every scientist in the world has be quoted as saying that we are over due for such a event of a magnetic pole reversal. let alone it does not take a prodigy to do the math relative to the location of the magnetic poles.

really what is with the insults does it stroke your psychology to post response to may post with insults and commentary for retards, wheres you contribution from a science approach because so far what i see is some one tryiung to make science or sense with wanton ideas that have no baseful analogy. you did not have to respond to my post thats for sure.

really what do you know about aliens, really tell us where they come from, have they been here on earth, how did they do this, when did it happen, wheres their home world.

road kill you should be some where writting a scifiction book as aposed to trying to push a analogy as to weather aliens are frendly.

Dwayne D.L.RABON

Scew you, you idots.

I asked some questions Dwayne. I disagreed with what parts of your messages I could decipher. You make too many bold assumptions and they are often based on fallacies. Anything I might have said which seemed insulting was probably in jest. I don't really think you smoke ganja. You just have a habit of rambling which gives that impression.

Moving on......

Aliens may not necessarily be evil because they do "evil" things. Early missionaries to the "backward" area's of our planet had only the very best of intentions as they trampled other cultures into the dust and caused the loss of many languages. When an unwritten language is forgotten it is forgotten forever. They gladly accepted land and introduced capital punishment by way of trade. Some natives had no conception of 'ownership" because they practised a sharing communal lifestyle devoid of material wealth. They soon discovered the joys of being whipped for stealing. "Modern" technology is always a cause of envy and avarice. Particularly among people to whom the concept was unknown previously.

Even if Aliens came here with the best of intentions and needed our help I doubt any friendship would ensue. We would be too different. In the backs of our minds would be the future day of confrontation. When the niceties are set aside and it becomes a free for all to see who is stronger. This is built in to us. What else could happen?

Firstly we would long for their technology and try to aquire it. They might also seek something of ours. Trade might prove fun for a while but like the beads traded to islanders by white missionaries we might eventually realise we were getting hard done by. That would cause resentment. Trade is fraught with all kinds of ways it can lead into war. If they give us their technology then we will be on an equal footing. If they don't then we will try to steal it. Even if we become allies for a time it will just be temporary I think. I reckon 9 times out of 10 they will just conquer us and save a lot of time. Rob us before somebody else does. Isn't that the excuse used by conmen? "If I hadn't done it somebody else would have". An attempt to justify their crime most certainly, but probably true.

Well roadkill there is nothing rambing about what i have to say, the things i had to say are not assupmtions, the points discussed by my post define critical points in make a decision if aliens are frenidly or aggressive. simply a few points that remain fact and provide a base in reality, to the discussion and question.
the points made also require some defintion and detail to provide a comphrehension of the general point, the step by step detail including the mathamatics would require a even longer written essay to basic points.
A serious question rises when you say that you can not follow the simpler points defined, a breif not that is sinply direct would lead you to a loss and assumption.

A few points
1.) aliens/life forms are most likely to orginate in gravition regions of the galaxy that provide a greater atomic stablity with active chemistry.
2.) the influence of gravity that plays a role in alien life and atomic stablity, places alien intrest in atoms that are heavy or of large atmic number such as cesium, barium,iridum, platinum, osium. aliens comeing to our region would value these atoms due to the fact thet would play a more significant role in alien worlds and life in heavy gravity regions of our galaxy.
3.) aliens having a more advanced technology would find this region useful because it offers a source of natural gravity of a solar system, this would be useful in establishing a base in the far reaches from there home worlds, it also relavant to there tech would provide the gravity center of a region that allows them to advance there technology in reseach direct torward developing space craft that can travel to a distant galaxy such as the Andromeda galaxy.
4.) aliens coming from a region of higher gravity influence woul;d find a planet such as jupiter more attractive than earth, due to the properties of gravity, and emf forces which would be more liketo occur in a regions of high gravity simular to thier own.
5.) inner planets could only offer heavy atoms as a resource.
6.) aliens would find humans intresting to examine for the most part, alien would also understand that life in the regiopn of our galaxy is limited and that elimination of life and any advance species natural to earth to have tech would be subject to nature destruction every 5,000 to 7,000 years by magnetic pole reversals increaseing the difficulty of its advancement, there would be no need to attempt to destroy humans as they have challanges already that are paramount, they could just simply wait and let nature do it.
7,) alien would know that life on earth and in our region would have only exist for a very short time about 27,000 years and would have only about 9,000 years left to make all the nessacary advancements to maintain as a stable life form in the galaxy.
8.) understanding that life has only been possible on earth for about 27,000 years it appears that aliens would more than likely not have been here to vist, or have visted us recently, unless they are already a galaxtic empire, instaed of a by chance rogue beginig alien exsplorer.
9.) the remote location of our solar system defines that we will see if we come into concat with aliens the most advance forms of space craft that they have in thier space traveling fleet, let alone it is likly that we would see the reseach craft that they posses for cosmic travel to distance or other galaxies. if we are to meet aliens we will meet the most advance type of aliens that their world has to offer, the highest preforming alien known to thier society of aliens, reseacher and leaders, and most likly war heads.
10.)it is safe to assume about the conduct of aliens that they would take a scientif intrest in what occurs on our planet, and about our biological functions, even so aliens would know that we are natural fictures to this sloar system, and that they are foreign and that habitaion is not conductive relavant to atomic compostion of life forms, alien would need spectral stablization of atomsphere to live in a atmospher like earths, and closed quaters. plainly a life support system. due to toxic nature of are enviroment.
11.) therefore alien intereactnce is limited either way we look at it. so a need to destroy humans would take a direct treat by humans against aliens of which we do not posses the ablity to present such a threat, in addtion to this alien would be aware that such motivation would be the direct function of a small group of humans and not the entire race.
12.) the present ment of meeting a life form such as humans with some state of tech would be rare in general occurance given the unstablity of emf forces which are nessacay for the develpoment of life but also act destructivly on the so life forms, a simple fact of pole reversal occuring in the galaxy on planets that can form life.

13.) the encounter of aliens presents the more likly hood that such aliens would be more helpful in sustaining life in the galaxy, or act to help humans in contrast to trying to eliminate them. however the focus of human to act more towards war would lead them to caution and there will alway be the point that alien would self protect.
consider this statment
The firearm being nessacary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed.
any alien could at any time need to protect it life, if aliens land on the jupiter first and colonize it, is it earths or the aliens to colonize it, well simple fact tells you that it belongs to the aliens not to humans, why human are not even organized on a planet scale to define the earth as for the groups of humans as one, how would humans insert the right to a planet that they can not even live on much less get to or vist, a alien coming to our solar system might have to defend that right to live on juptier because humans are so arrogant to say its theirs and quite surly its not.
any intelligent life form knows the boundry of whats yours and whats mine, simple law of use, even animals that walk our planet.
the averge person may have a need for some fear of aliens natural precaution, but they would need to have more fear from the people they live with, as those are the people that try to dictate their belifs and persona wants ect..... on others.
a alien would not be so limited as it has the capablity to travel the galaxy it has the motion of freedom, the treatto humans comes from from alien intrest in biological functions that may result in atopsy or biological pentration ect....a exspermint, but look at the fact humasn have exsperminted on other humans quite offten so which are you more scared of a alien that could probally cut off your finger and regrow it or a human that would cut off your finger and let you bleed to death. which would have a sound mind the alien or the congressmen when it come to your pleas.

Dwayne.D.L.Rabon

"Oh and gurthie who are you to call nutty have you read your own posts as of late, and to think you had the nerve to ask me about magnetic pole reversals and their next occurance when just about every scientist in the world has be quoted as saying that we are over due for such a event of a magnetic pole reversal. let alone it does not take a prodigy to do the math relative to the location of the magnetic poles."

HAhaha, their next ocurrence is in a couple thousand years time at the present extrapolations, as i read recently, and they dont seem to occur as often as every 5,000 years. Thats not the same as making whatever claims you were. I have read my own posts recently, care to comment on them? AS for the rest of that, what else is there to say except i am a mathematical idiot. i confess, i cant do much more than addition and subtraction.

As for your next post, it makes some sense, so your saying aliens would be unlikely to want to mess with us and would be likely harmless?

Hi All

Come on guys!

Keep it fluffy!

Best of luck to one 'n' all

Peter Dunn

7,) alien would know that life on earth and in our region would have only exist for a very short time about 27,000 years and would have only about 9,000 years left to make all the nessacary advancements to maintain as a stable life form in the galaxy.

:bugeye:

any intelligent life form knows the boundry of whats yours and whats mine, simple law of use, even animals that walk our planet.

You mean like the way humans respect the Dolphins environment. Dolphins may be as smart or smarter than we are. Its just that our minds work differently. Their brains are relatively equal to ours in both size and body ratio. They are believed by many to have mastered language and they posess an extra sensory perception. An incredibly advanced form of sonar which allows them to "see" underwater objects in murky conditions. Down to the exact shape. We can't even get along with other Terrans and you are telling me it's a "fact" that Alien visitors from another star system will respect our self claimed ownership of this planet? If they are more intelligent than us then I don't think our pleas are going to mean much.

The universe is a huge place. Threre must be several different races of extraterestial beings out there. Some way be good, some may be bad. Just like there are people who are friendly to you on the planet, and people who you just dont get along with. Lets hope that the friendly aliens out weigh the non-friendly ones. Though very doubtfull:(





-Guyute

I think you are right. There could be countless wars going on throughout the galaxy between spacefaring races. I wouldn't be surprised if any debris from ancient warships has drifted into our suns orbital plane. We would never find it. We stumbled across 21 new moons around Jupiter last year. An asteroid the size of a football field hurtled between the moon and us very recently and we never saw it until 4 days after it had gone past. An entire spacecraft would be invisible to our telescopes. A million year old intact warp engine could be orbiting the sun between Earth and Venus and we might never know about it. Kind of ironic that the human race might evolve, philosophise about interstellar travel and become extinct with the secret to star travel within easy reach.

well I knew that dolphines where intelligent enought to demonstrate complexed communications with humans from several documentraies on dolphines, i did not know that their organization places them at a point of intelligence above humans. but to think of it you did mention sonar which would suggest a form of mathamatics, just not written math. which in addtion suggest that dolphines might have a exstensive memory relative to than mathamatics, suggesting even furthur no need for writting and exspression of that intelligence.
it would seem that such a delevopment would be due to their enviroment condtions,water. and that there social order is based on the the large exspansion of habitat, so it would seem that the dolphine is a creature with all of the potenital to achivie enivormental manipulation, such as inventions, material inventions comforts and elevators such as our own standards,but lacking one means the physical body to manipulate material.

so when i think about humans development it would appear given the density of dry soil humans are more physcially orientated,and so more likly to develope physical development before mind form. where dolphines have a lower density enviorment and so more likly to develope mental functions they just might have a higher organiztion of intelligence than humans, social customs and meaning of vaules would be foriegn to any human frame of mind just based on enviorment, but i could see how the dolphine possesing a higher organization would respect the attempt of communication with a non dolphine such as human, even though out of order and enviormental circumstances, as the dolphine posses high order of orgaization menatlly, the human mtoion would be calculated and predicted. as with sharks or killer whales ect.... association of communication is assumably freindly. givens its order of events or practice.
the sonar delevopment of dolphines would not only develope mathamatics, but also would be a enviromental circumstance developed by waters defraction of light, and emf forces calling for finer senses, at more easly traveled wave forms. highly sensitive they would be to see in merky waters, yes definitly a trait of high intelligence, the fact that doplhines can navigate wave forms defines that doplhines are phyic, telepathic. and calculating light begins the aspects of prophecy, telling of the future and precongniton of events. as it is the only means possible to make the connection scientifically. it may be that the highest form of doplihne intelligence is precongnition of events, which would prove to be one of the world most remarkable finds.


do you feed your cat when it meows, when do you reconginze intelligence, a life form that travel the exspanse of the space would have intelligence and would under purpose of communication and discover of new life forms, humans are advanced enough for recongition, even though they have faults, like wise would you regonconize the ablity of a dolhpine to tell you of futrue events,if you know that the dolpine has a developed mind to make a better assertion of pregoncition than any human as the dopline calaculates light wave form. i think that a alien would have the intelligence to make a bridge to hear your voice and plea.

Dwayne D.L.Rabon

Oh well, but fact remains that are solar system is located on the outter edge of our galaxy, the furthest point to say, and the least likly place to find life, such as we humans might think of the planet pluto a cold forbaren place at the edge of the solar system,

for a alien race to come this far, it would be one of the most advance alien races, in addtion the space craft that we would meet would be one of their finest craft ever built, the only reason that aliens would venture this far out in the galaxy would be to develope space craft for traveling the cosoms, meaning sppace craft for traveling out of this galaxy. and for expolration, scientific discovery.
lastly for the alien race to discover us in the first place it would have had to have happened in the last 27,000 years, more so in the middle of that then in the begining of that say about 15,000years ago. or else they would have to be a galaxatic empire which has frequent craft that travel or solar system and different regions of the galaxy. Here also we would find that there is organization that would present peacful communication as they would have encountered other life forms and presented negociations with those life forms, what would give them reason to act violently toward human ?


Dwayne D.L.Rabon

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
- Jack Handey (aka Jack Handy)

To get free drugs and sex


Your question was intended as a joke right?

i have no opinion on whether new civilizations would be friendly, however I believe it would be prudent to prepare for beligerence.

be that as it may, I do find it difficult to imagine why beligerent aliens would want to attack us, unless worlds which can support life (as we know it) are rare (and valuable to aliens). it could be that these types of worlds can only exist at the ends or edges of galaxies, and so aliens would know where to search for them. but, there is evidence that aliens have visited us and are perhaps still monitoring us. if that's the case, then, if the aliens were beligerent, there would be no reason to wait to attack. they would do it early in our technological development (27000 years ago) or early in our evolutionary development (100000 years ago when H.sapiens first arose).

another thing which no one has brought up; time it takes for technological advancement; the universe is how old? some estimates are in the 10 billion year range. life started here on earth about as soon as it could (my belief is that if life can exist, i.e. if conditions for life are present, then life will exist) about 4 billion years ago. it then took about 3.5 billion years for multi-cellular life to exist, then it took about 0.5 billion years for humans to exist. it could be, given the life of the universe and evolutionary rates, that there aren't any more advanced forms of life out there because there hasn't been enough time for them to become more advanced than us. we're it!

Dwayne,
i think that a alien would have the intelligence to make a bridge to hear your voice and plea.

They might have the ability to do that. They might not. The question is whether they can be bothered. It would take time and they might have other higher priorities on their agenda's. What value would communication with us offer them? Assuming they are that advanced. They might know everything we know already.

Oh well, but fact remains that are solar system is located on the outter edge of our galaxy, the furthest point to say, and the least likly place to find life

We don't know that its the least likely place to find life. Civilisations might litter the outer edge of the sagittarius arm. We are here aren't we?

for a alien race to come this far, it would be one of the most advance alien races, in addtion the space craft that we would meet would be one of their finest craft ever built,

Or they could be from one of the local star systems. Maybe even on their first interstellar voyage. I'm sorry but I don't accept your theory that any space travellers other than ourselves must be from the galactic core. That seems to me the most unlikely origin for other sentient life. The stars are packed too tightly together.

Here also we would find that there is organization that would present peacful communication as they would have encountered other life forms and presented negociations with those life forms, what would give them reason to act violently toward human ?

How do you know they would have presented negotiations? It's questionable whether two sentient life forms would even be capable of dialogue. Their customs would be very different so almost any action is liable to cause offence. Any creature with survival instincts is natually suspicious and some behaviours might be misconstrued as attacks. They might have had bad experiences with other Alien life and have the attitude that up and coming species should be wiped out before they become a threat.


Paul,
be that as it may, I do find it difficult to imagine why beligerent aliens would want to attack us, unless worlds which can support life (as we know it) are rare (and valuable to aliens).

They are valuable to us. Tracking down other Earths is the holy grail of NASA's exoplanet survey programs. Assuming there were two or three Earthlike Worlds on average at every suitable star with a habitable zone large enough, we would still find Earths rare. You have to take interstellar distances into consideration. What good is a hundred Earths if they are spread across 500 light years or more. Most stars are paired which would mean any planets formed would have unstable orbits. Many stars are too old or too young. I don't think there is much question about Earths being valuable.

it could be, given the life of the universe and evolutionary rates, that there aren't any more advanced forms of life out there because there hasn't been enough time for them to become more advanced than us. we're it!

Thats one possibility. Here's another. A regional star turns supernova long ago and wipes out all of the more advanced life in our local star systems. Everybody is now on an equal footing. Given the somewhat random yet ultimately progressive nature of evolution there is no telling if intelligence would arise or in how many places but intelligence does seem to have survival value so you can expect it will eventually appear. It's a race. Whoever realises the value of interstellar spaceflight first claims this region of the galaxy. They colonise every available world. It is the nature of life to expand. They keep expanding until they meet another race expanding in the other direction and like two entwined amoeba's they then try to devour one another. The larger more widespread race will win because it has more resources and time to figure out the enemies weaknesses. They outnumber them. Species that don't play this game remain small and easily defeated. We used to play this game on a planetary scale. It was called empire building. Alexander the Great was rather good at it. Species without interstellar travel aren't even a threat. They are just assimilated quickly. I think we will either be conquerors or conquered. Depending on how long it takes for us to develop starships.

I believe an alien race would not be aggresive towards us. In order to get here they would obviously have to have far superior intellect then us piss poor earthlings. I believe they would use some type of inter-dimensional travel to get here, maybe the folding of space. One can also assume that they would have great knowlege of snythetics. If so, that might rule out the possibility of them coming here to rape earth of any of its natural resources.

Are ansectors were violent in order to survive,a trait we inherited. They used this violence in there everyday life i.e. protection, hunting etc...Eventually, trough the process of evolution, we will loose this violence in us. If a race were to be that intelligent, I would assume they would have to be amazingly evolved. If that assumption is correct then I would think they would have gotten past that need for violence and would have seen the incredible benefits of peace.

I honestly can not think of to many reasons for them coming here.

1. Exploration/Advancing themselves
2. The need of something e.g. natural resources, food etc...
3. Fear/Competition

The first seems the most logical.

I don't believe in aliens. If one were to actually come here, touch me and talk to me, then I would believe it.

I hope the won you would come in contact with would be friendly cosmictraveler. :D

Originally posted by cosmictraveler
I don't believe in aliens. If one were to actually come here, touch me and talk to me, then I would believe it.

Why not?

I don't believe in aliens. If one were to actually come here, touch me and talk to me, then I would believe it.

i dont think whether or not one believes in aliens matters much, either way the discussion is hypothetical since contact (i mean formal contact) hasn't happened. We're all just throwing ideas around about the possibility and potential consequences.

either you think its an interesting exercise or not, belief isn't required.

buff

Reading this article everyones gone for the 'yeah they'd be pretty dam' hospitable and wack on the U.F BBQ!!!!!' impression.


sadly..I really doubt that would be the scenario.


Dont get me wrong ,ok I'm not pesamistic im a realist; and conversing on this (as buffs said) purley hyperthetical conversation I must outline the harsh reality of species behavior.


Yeah I agree as someone said earlier that for them to come here it would take far supierior technology compared with our efforts.

but do you really think a superior species would pop in for a tea and cake then p155 off 500 lights years to go home..............nah!!!


Or think another way................take our great civilisation of mankind:


We have had the oportuity to learn from 'lower' forms of life ie animals on our planet; and what have we done............weve ripped 'em apart......roasted them with seasoning and a white wine sauce. performed inhuman scientific experiments. Even kept them in cages and tanks for ammusment..........


Bearing in mind that we are considered the most 'advanced' forms of life:

Given our blatent disrespect for anything 'lower' than us and our expectations that we can 'use' and 'discard' as and when we feel appropriate ............do you really believe that a 'higher' lifeform would revert to the lower characteristics of a life form.

I know generally fear is the reason for human aggression and possibly a life form above us is securer in emotional outburst. Thus controlling this fear.

Pure speculation can lead down many paths.

I long for the day of extraterestrial contact........and hope that an alliance could be created................but I doubt humans could learn to live with another/better race. I mean whites/Blacks are only just starting to come to terms with each other in the last 25 yrs ...........religions are still killing each other for differences with speculation!!!!

humans heh!!! take me E.T....I want out!!!!!!

I hope they do not have a religion similar to the one presented in the Bible. Dominion over all other life can be taken a long way, not to mention Manifest Destiny.

That presents another question...even if the aliens wanted peace, would we, a species who believes they are God's chosen, allow that? What if their emissaries where missionaries? That is what our more civilized cultures do to those cultures we view as less civilized. Could we accept them?

Another question...Most Americans already have no faith in the American government (neither does the rest of the world for that matter). If aliens were to advise us on our politics, would we have any trust that our politicians were anything but puppets? Would it matter if their was evidence or not?

- KitNyx

good points there..................KITNYX

but the main one is the fact that human nature is to attack when fear'd.


Therefore before the aliens even got within the atmoshpere Bush, Blair n all the other 'red button' boyz are gonna pump the skys so full of nuc's /missles n good ol' fashioned lead that there isnt going to be sniff of 'we come in peace'...............and its is for this human level of behavior I have started to believe that there hasn't been contact.

They simply realise we havent evolved/matured enough to consider there definate precence.

smoking way to much weed....and going right off the wall here:


with tv pushing 'real life telly' for the 'evoloution' of home entertainment.....................


howz this for a explanation:


'its the yr 2525...humans have developped time travel but there so bored from watching sh1tty real life tv shows that everyones going skitso and commiting suicide..............theres once shot....................go back in time and travel to that little plannet that is inhabitable called earth............then we could set a handful of animals.......a male and female (adam and eve) then watch creation rebirth.....................sucess the real world was saved but the only problem being that we are a tv show!!!! we are a tv show!!!! we are a tv show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!'

Considering what reality tv shows we have now I think something very similar could happen way in the future.

In a planet circling Alpha Centari it's:

Survivor: On Another Planet!:D

dino king man!!! your in all the alien related convos. :confused:

not to busy at work either bro??? :bugeye:

Well I have been interested in aliens since I was real little.

So I have alot of alien info that I have read about over the years.

I have been into aliens,dinosaurs, and all science related things since I was about 8 or so.

Thats why I like talking about aliens.:)

Well, if you're interested in aliens, here are ours-
http://www.orionsarm.com/xenos/index.html

Thanks for the link!:)

Ok, to those who believe that every intelligent race in the universe except us is completely peaceful I offer this thought.

How many of you are active members of GreenPeace or Earth First? I don't mean giving them a $5 donation back in 1996. I mean blockading whaler boats in a rubber dingy. Walking down city central waving a placard damning the use of tuna nets which trap dolphins.

The truth is that active environmentalists make up a minority of the population. Business managers who make a living out of raping nature are also a minority but the difference is that they are rich and can afford to hire workforces in the thousands.

To achieve our level of scientific understanding and technological progress we had to diversify. Our society had to specialise. In the beginning men hunted, women collected berries and there might have been a medicine man or witch doctor. The elders with experience but failing health did the thinking. Now we have to be more diversified in our learning. We need thousands of different technicians and workers to maintain society.

We have both nature rapers and environmentalists. Why do you think other races will be different?


Slavery is a good illustration of the ethical implications of biological nature. The similarities between ant slavery and human slavery suggest that in both cases slavery arises as a natural form of social parasitism in which slavemakers exploit their slaves through coercion and manipulation. Just as ant slavery emerges from the coercion of territorial warfare in which the stronger colony enslaves some of the ants of the weaker colony, human slavery can often be traced back to the coercion of war in which victors enslave their captives. And just as ant slavery depends on the manipulation of the slave ants through deceptive communication--the slaves identify the odor of the alien colony as their own--so that they adopt the slavemakers as if they were relatives, human masters promote the false conception of human slavery as a paternalistic relationship in which masters rule over slaves as parents rule over their children.

Originally posted by troj
we are a tv show!!!! we are a tv show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!'

Wasn’t that an episode of Futurerama?

dunno...i have better things to do than sit on my a$$ and watch telly.

thats probably why your boil is festering !!!!!

Originally posted by troj
dunno...i have better things to do than sit on my a$$ and watch telly.

thats probably why your boil is festering !!!!!

No need to be rude man.

There is a fine line between rundeness and hummer .....................i was pretty dam' close but from my line of sight i was just in the hummer side......................and with a name like festering boil you have to see the amuzing side as well

Originally posted by roadkill
Ok, to those who believe that every intelligent race in the universe except us is completely peaceful I offer this thought.

How many of you are active members of GreenPeace or Earth First? I don't mean giving them a $5 donation back in 1996. I mean blockading whaler boats in a rubber dingy. Walking down city central waving a placard damning the use of tuna nets which trap dolphins.

The truth is that active environmentalists make up a minority of the population. Business managers who make a living out of raping nature are also a minority but the difference is that they are rich and can afford to hire workforces in the thousands.

To achieve our level of scientific understanding and technological progress we had to diversify. Our society had to specialise. In the beginning men hunted, women collected berries and there might have been a medicine man or witch doctor. The elders with experience but failing health did the thinking. Now we have to be more diversified in our learning. We need thousands of different technicians and workers to maintain society.

We have both nature rapers and environmentalists. Why do you think other races will be different?


Slavery is a good illustration of the ethical implications of biological nature. The similarities between ant slavery and human slavery suggest that in both cases slavery arises as a natural form of social parasitism in which slavemakers exploit their slaves through coe