From another thread:

So you think if America had given up in WWII as you seem to think it's giving up in Iraq today, that we'd all be speaking German? What makes you think that? The Allies would have probably won the war against the Germans with or without you. Your final involvement only sped up the process.

So Bells is of the opinion that the allies would have ultimately defeated Germany with or without US help. I find that hard to believe. Of course he makes no mention of the other axis powers, especially Japan. Clearly the US played the key role in defeating Japan. Even discounting US military actions in Europe, could the allies have fought for long without US support? I think not. All the allied nations played an important role in achieving victory. It was a close fought thing, and could have easily gone the other way. Take away any of the major players, and the outcome would have been different.

It's difficult to say.

i believe germany would have held europe.
most of europe had been overrun and britain was reeling from germanys punches. the only major player besides the US was russia. as long as hitler behaved himself he would be safe from russia.

US supplied the Allies with so many things, and then had to help out by sending in troops. I doubt the Allies would've won without America.

Russia was so horribly weak. Yea they pulled a glorious victory, but that malnourished, under-supplied army couldn't have done it all on its own.

Russia was so horribly weak. Yea they pulled a glorious victory, but that malnourished, under-supplied army couldn't have done it all on its own.

Actually it did most of the war on its own. People think that the Soviet army was pure crap, but it was only that in the beginning of the war. Previously Stalin had purged the ranks of the soviet army of many competent commanders. It took a while to recover from this, but actually in the end the Soviet forces beat the shit out of the germans because of many factors. One of which was actually superior tactics. There was the numerical superiority. And also the little known fact that despite low production figures for essential materials such as steel, aluminium and such the Soviets did manage to pump out more tanks and such as the opponent.

Sure, the US provided the soviet army with extremely helpful stuff such as trucks. The soviet union hardly had any. Most transportation was done with american made trucks. However, this was not a decisive factor in the war. Railways could have been used. Trucks still transported only a limited amount of what needed to be transported. Human power was still going strong in the soviet army and of course the soviet army could have changed the focus of its production capacity towards things such as trucks if they hadn't gotten them from the USA.

People often underestimate the soviet army. It's a mistake. They had the largest standing army at the end of the war. They had the best tank. They had tactics based on artillery and mechanized warfare. They had good commanders and in this respect Stalin was in fact superior to Hitler. He hardly meddled with the specifics of the tactics employed by the commanders. Hitler did. And it cost him.

The best german armies were not in the west. They were in the east. The german army was defeated in the east. After that it was a mopping up operation that was joined by the other allied forces in the west.

In fact in the end the German resistance was lowered in the west to give the american led allied forces a chance to compete with the Russians. To the Russians the german forces resisted with everything they got because they knew that the soviets would show no mercy after what they did to the soviets.

end rant.

Russia could've kept Germany from overtking it, but I don't think they would have had a very successful attempt to take any substantial land from Germany Also, sooner or later, Japan would have been fighting them in the east.

Russia could've kept Germany from overtking it, but I don't think they would have had a very successful attempt to take any substantial land from Germany Also, sooner or later, Japan would have been fighting them in the east.


They actually did take back substantial land from the Germans before the allied forces even landed.

And destroying more than one german army in the process.


Some of the best german forces had been destroyed already in Stalingrad. A whole army gone. One of the best army groups the Germans had.

They lost the power to take the initiative and were more or less dependent on what the Soviet forces would do next.

And after stalingrad, August 1943, the Battle of the Lower Dnieper. 4 million troops involved. One of the largest and bloodiest battles ever. estimated casualites range from around 1.7 million and up.

Another costly defeat for the Wehrmacht.

January 1944. The allied forces had still not landed in France.

In the north, a Soviet offensive in January 1944 had relieved the siege of Leningrad. The Germans conducted an orderly retreat from the Leningrad area to a shorter line based on the lakes to the south.

In the south, in March, two Soviet fronts encircled Generaloberst Hans-Valentin Hube's First Panzer Army north of the Dniestr river. The Germans escaped the pocket in April, saving most of their men but losing their heavy equipment.

In early May, the Red Army's 3rd Ukrainian Front engaged German Seventeenth Army of Army Group South which had been left behind after the German retreat from the Ukraine. The battle was a complete victory for the Red Army, and a botched evacuation effort across the Black Sea led to over 250,000 German and Romanian casualties.

And in June the Allied forces finally landed in Normandy, but were largely stuck their in the beginning.

At the same time the Soviets didn't really linger around.

After the destruction of Army Group Center, the Soviets attacked German forces in the south in mid-July 1944, and in a month's time they cleared Ukraine of German presence.

The Red Army's 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts engaged German Heeresgruppe Südukraine, which consisted of German and Romanian formations, in an operation to occupy Romania and destroy the German formations in the sector. The result of the battle was complete victory for the Red Army and a switch of Romania from the Axis to the Allied camp.

In October 1944, General der Artillerie Maximilian Fretter-Pico's Sixth Army encircled and destroyed three corps of Marshal Rodion Yakovlevich Malinovsky's Group Pliyev near Debrecen, Hungary. This was to be the last German victory in the Eastern front.

The Red Army's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Baltic Fronts engaged German Army Group Center and Army Group North to capture the Baltic region from the Germans. The result of the series of battles was a permanent loss of contact between Army Groups North and Centre, and the creation of the Courland Pocket in Latvia. From December 29, 1944 to February 13, 1945, Soviet forces laid siege to Budapest, which was defended by German Waffen-SS and Hungarian forces. It was one of the bloodiest sieges of the war.

The soviets were on a roll. They had become an unstoppable force.

Everything before the Allies landed ion Normandy was just Russia taking it's own land back. They got a few armies out of the way. Britain could've taken Italy by itself, so Germany probably would've been overtaken eventually, but I don't think Russia could've done it alone. They would have been occupied with protecting their eastern front from Japan, which would've had conscipted soldiers from all over Asia before making an attack.

Everything before the Allies landed ion Normandy was just Russia taking it's own land back. They got a few armies out of the way. Britain could've taken Italy by itself, so Germany probably would've been overtaken eventually, but I don't think Russia could've done it alone. They would have been occupied with protecting their eastern front from Japan, which would've had conscipted soldiers from all over Asia before making an attack.

They destroyed the German army before the Americans set a foot in Normandy.

spuriousmonkey, 30% of the Russian Army, was supplied by the United States,

http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/lendlse.htm

Lend-Lease to the USSR

October 1941 to June 1942
aircraft 1285
tanks 2249
machine-guns 81287
explosives 59455620 pounds
trucks 36825
field telephones 56445
telephone wire 600000 km

1942 and 1943

aircraft 3052
tanks 4084
vehicles 520000
Fighter Aircraft
P-39 5707 (4719 reached the USSR)
P-40 2397
P-47 195
P-63 2397 (21 lost in transfer)
Hurricane 2952
Spitfire 1331

Total: 14982 (own production: 74740)

Bomber and Attack Aircraft

A-20 2908
B-25 862
B-24 1
Hampden 23
Al bemarle 14
Mosquito 1

Total: 3809 (own production: 65008)


According to Ukranian source: Andrew Gregorovich
The USA supplied the USSR with 6,430 planes, 3,734 tanks, 104 ships and boats, 210,000 autos, 3,000 anti-aircraft guns, 245,000 field telephones, gasoline, aluminum, copper, zinc, steel and five million tons of food. This was enough to feed an army of 12 million every day of the war. Britain supplied 5,800 planes, 4,292 tanks, and 12 minesweepers. Canada supplied 1,188 tanks, 842 armoured cars, nearly one million shells, and 208,000 tons of wheat and flour. The USSR depended on American trucks for its mobility since 427,000 out of 665,000 motor vehicles (trucks and jeeps) at the end of the war were of western origin.

How is that 30%?

You just mention some stuff.

Im of the opinion that the latter 2nd world war years were very much so in the balance, ergo the envolvement of the yanks was indeed decisive.

Oh shit I should have voted for A not B.

except for 1938 america provided over 50% of all production during ww2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II

Russia could've kept Germany from overtking it, but I don't think they would have had a very successful attempt to take any substantial land from Germany Also, sooner or later, Japan would have been fighting them in the east.
japan didnt have an interest in europe at that time, the attack against america was purely against them. and i believe that europe would have still won in the end. our tactics were far superiour to theirs

Discounting US efforts, I think the Germans could have developed the bomb first and taken over the world. No doubt they would have used it with less restraint. They were already working on reactors, but hadn't succeeded in making it work.

i believe germany would have held europe.
most of europe had been overrun and britain was reeling from germanys punches. the only major player besides the US was russia. as long as hitler behaved himself he would be safe from russia.I recall the Soviet capture and destruction of Berlin.

I recall the Soviet capture and destruction of Berlin.

How old are you? :eek:

How old are you? :eek:Not THAT old!!!!! I read. I'm 43.

I recall the Soviet capture and destruction of Berlin.
wasn't that after britain and the US carpet bombed germany?
and after the invasion of normandy?
neither of those would have happened if america stayed out of the war.

leopold99:

wasn't that after britain and the US carpet bombed germany?
and after the invasion of normandy?

Wasn't the invasion of Normandy years after the Russians began to stomp Axis ass all over the Eastern Front?

Normandy wasn't the turning point of the war. Stalingrad was. The Russians tied the hangman's noose, and the other Allies gave it the final yank on D-Day.

leopold99:

Wasn't the invasion of Normandy years after the Russians began to stomp Axis ass all over the Eastern Front?
true. but i believe that russia would have left germany alone if hitler backed off

Normandy wasn't the turning point of the war. Stalingrad was. The Russians tied the hangman's noose, and the other Allies gave it the final yank on D-Day.
also true. it's hard to say what effect the defeat had on german psyche and moral.

true. but i believe that russia would have left germany alone if hitler backed off


Maybe if the soviet union was led by a normal man. But it was stalin who was in power. A man with a taste for power.

I have the feeling that the Axis wouldn't have won... but wouldn't have lost either. THey would have probably decided at some point that they couldn't hold all their newfound land with their shrinking supply of troops and so would fall back to consolidate their forces. Peace would be offered to all involved and such offers would be quickly accepted by a war weary Europe. Russia alone might not agree... but probably also wouldn't be able to mass enough forces for a decent offensive push if Germany was no longer splitting its forces.

Germany would hold on to its block of land, somewhat larger than what it started out with, and rebuild any lost infrastructure at breakneck speeds. A few years later, somebody will come up with the A-Bomb and within a few years several powers will have them. America, Germany, Russia, and Japan would all probably have theirs within years. And thus invasion is no longer an option for anybody. A Cold War begins, this time four-way rather than just a two-way clash between superpowers.

leopold:

also true. it's hard to say what effect the defeat had on german psyche and moral.

It's well documented that the defeat at Stalingrad was a severe blow to German psyche and morale.

It also ended Hitler's ambitions in the East. After Stalingrad, Germany just wanted to force a stalemate on the Eastern Front.

I have the feeling that the Axis wouldn't have won... but wouldn't have lost either. THey would have probably decided at some point that they couldn't hold all their newfound land with their shrinking supply of troops and so would fall back to consolidate their forces. Peace would be offered to all involved and such offers would be quickly accepted by a war weary Europe. Russia alone might not agree... but probably also wouldn't be able to mass enough forces for a decent offensive push if Germany was no longer splitting its forces.

Germany would hold on to its block of land, somewhat larger than what it started out with, and rebuild any lost infrastructure at breakneck speeds. A few years later, somebody will come up with the A-Bomb and within a few years several powers will have them. America, Germany, Russia, and Japan would all probably have theirs within years. And thus invasion is no longer an option for anybody. A Cold War begins, this time four-way rather than just a two-way clash between superpowers.
i disagree, the only way that the germans would have backed off is if hitler was disposed from power. just take a look art his view point to the ww1 armistice when the germans didnt have a hope of winning

If he hadn't moved towards stalingrad he still would have had a decisive lead in the war. His supply lines were stretched far too thin and the germans were easily worn down in Russia. Geography and weather slowed down german troops and armour.

Also from a technological point of view the Russians had superior tank armour that reduced the damaged inflicted by german firing shells.

Hitler's war workshop's were also working on a cutting edge new super armour for their tanks but it only came into implementation during the middle of the stalingrad offensive.

Yes stalingrad was a serious blow to german morale, but Hitler still retained most of the strategic high ground!

Hitler just got too over confident and lost!

Vega, no the Russians didn't have superior armor, the thing that helped their tanks, was the angle that the armor was placed at, when placed at a angle it presents a greater thickness of steel to be penetrated. The problem on the German side was the caliber of their tank weapons at the beginning of the war, the MK-ll had a 20mm weapon, the MK-lll had a 37mm weapon, and the MK-lV had a short barreled, low velocity howitzer. When the Germans started to up-grade the armament of their tank things changed, and Soviet tank losses skyrocketed. The saving grace of the T-34 was that it could be massed produced, that it was reliable, and it had room to be up gunned, the only German tank that could be up gunned to a proper caliber was the MK-lV, and it took the design and production of the MK Vl Tiger, and MK-V Panther to supersede parity with contemporary Russian Armor.

Thank you for the PM Madan.. :p

As to my statement, I still think that in the end the Allies would have probably won. Hitler had lost in the East against Russia. Germany had over extended itself to such a point that German soldiers were dying from hunger and the cold and did not have enough fuel, bullets and shells to use against the Russians in the East. All German resources were directed towards Russia, leaving the rest of Europe less defended. Hitler also began to face dissent in his ranks, with many of his senior generals questioning his decisions in regards to Russia.

As with any dictator, Hitler became exceedingly greedy. He was facing a foe in the East who also would not give up and cared not whether his men lived or died. To the West he was facing mounting pressure from the Allies and the Resistance movement against the Third Reich was gaining ground. Hitle was basically caught in a pincer movement. He had the Allies keeping up the fight in the West and he had the Russians steamrolling over his soldiers in the East. Pulling his soldiers from either side would have resulted in a loss. If he recalled his soldiers from the East, Russia would have moved a lot quicker against them. If he recalled the soldiers from the West to bolster his defence and his offensive against Russia, he'd have lost in the West as the British and her allies (sans America) began to push through remaining German lines. Lets not forget, even before the Americans decided to join the war, the British had other allies who were at war alongside them from the start. While it had suffered great losses against the Germans, it was not over extended like the Germans were since their soldiers in Asia had been recalled to defend the motherland, until the Japanese entered the war by attacking America and the Asia Pacific, where the British lost parts of their colonies in Asia and the Pacific.

While ultimately the British would have lost in Asia Pacific, it would have most probably won in Europe against the Germans. Meh.. that's my opinion anyway. Think as you wish. In the end it's all 'what if's' and we all have a different opinion.. :p

Bells, you have discounted the fact that without the Americans help Britain would not have been is a position to attack the Germans, their nearest allies was Canada which didn't have the industrial ability to lend much of a hand, and that with out the pressure of the western front, Germany would have had far more troops to place against the Russian, more maneuver forces more industrial production, more equipment, and the Russians would have been missing the transport, which as mostly American, aircraft and tanks that equipped 30% of their forces, and 30% is a big deficit to make up in any situation.

The poll doesn't make sense, there is no place to mark if you think the allies would have lost without US help.

The poll doesn't make sense, there is no place to mark if you think the allies would have lost without US help.

I was confused too.

The first one. The Axis would have won.

i realised i voted on the wrong one, i meant i think that allies would have still won without the help of the US. the main reason i feel this is the case was because of russia.

The poll doesn't make sense, there is no place to mark if you think the allies would have lost without US help.
The answer you should give is #1, meaning yes, the axis would have won.

thedevilsreject, with out the trucks that the U.S. sent to the Soviets they didn't have the ability to move their supplies and men, they would have been a foot slogging, starving army, with out the ability to resupply or move troops to react to the Germans mobile style of warfare, if anything the most important help that the U.S. gave the Soviets was the fleets of trucks, 90% of their transportation was American Trucks.

The Soviet Union did not have the industrial infrastructure to sustain continuing warfare.

It's known that Hitler made alot of enemies with his own Generals, so the likelihood is even without American intervention somebody would of nailed him eventually, even if it meant a suicide bombing.

Stryder, only after he started to loose.

By the end of the war, the US was producing more tanks, planes, bombs, guns, etc than everyone else combined.

So the US was certainly a decisive contributer.