http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3552147.stm

This was a great turn-out for a protest of an event that took place a year ago.
Its been awhile since there's been a protest of this magnitude and its good to see that the movement is still strong.
What's really noteworthy for me though, was turning on the tv to watch the evening news, expecting them to mention that a few thousand protested, and then say not everyone agrees with these protestors and cut to an interview with a flag-waving counter-protestor. Instead I found that they treated it as a real event. Gave both the police and organizer crowd estimates without bias, showed aerial footage of the protest, and interviewed several protestors.
There must be a reason why this protest recieved so much more coverage than far more massive protests of the same issue. Even the police where relatively well-behaved(there were only 4 arrests in NY, and I haven't heard of any incidences of brutality yet)
with luck this trend will continue. The NOW march on April 25th should be especially harmful to the Bush administration.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bloom.jpg

http://www.protestwarrior.com

i was surprised by the turnout. i thought it would be much less than it actually was. it was still way smaller than last year. i only took in a few hundred in donations (i work for the organizer-look for me on the news!) whereas last year it was a few thousand before i had to drop off my bag and go back out.
by the way, i take in the most money from older upper middle class white suburbanites, people who are traditionally conservative. this is the first time in history the peaceniks are the mainstream, not whiny college kids and housewives.
shout out to the police who made it possible and saw to a good fun safe time for all.

http://www.protestwarrior.com

i was surprised by the turnout. i thought it would be much less than it actually was. it was still way smaller than last year. i only took in a few hundred in donations (i work for the organizer-look for me on the news!) whereas last year it was a few thousand before i had to drop off my bag and go back out.
by the way, i take in the most money from older upper middle class white suburbanites, people who are traditionally conservative. this is the first time in history the peaceniks are the mainstream, not whiny college kids and housewives.
shout out to the police who made it possible and saw to a good fun safe time for all.

SwedishFish, are you with UFP&J or ANSWER?
I'm glad they seem to have figured out how to work together.

I was surprised by the turnout too, but the most remarkable thing was that, for once, the half dozen or so protestwarrior people did not get equal coverage, in fact they were given none in the coverage I saw. The report I saw on last year's far more massive demo gave it about a quarter of the time they gave to this one, and spent half of that interviewing free republic/protest warrior types.

i was at that square in hungary in the BBC picture last month =)

I'm not worthy! (sat on my ass this time, dammit) :(

May figurative hat's off to all who take the time and expense to express themselves on the streets.

my favourite slogans from www.protestwarrior.com:

"Saddam only kills his own people, IT'S NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!" (http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/posters/sign_04.jpg)
and
"Help protect Islamic property rights against Western imperialism" (http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/posters/sign_02.jpg)

this one (http://www.protestwarrior.com/poster_sets/sign_14.pdf) is probably the best

G-d, i love these people .link (http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/posters/sign_21.jpg).
no, not ANSWER

who's really (http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/posters/iraqi_children.jpg) thinking of the Iraqi children?

check it for more interesting posters

The really interesting facts about political protestors are:

Many are unemployed.
Many are young. (therefore inherently ignorant about much in life)
Many don't bother to vote.(here in the US. The protesters in Spain apparently have been too close to the French border for too long. They are now on the same level of cowardice as France.)
Most don't know the difference between a Senator and a Representative.

By all means, protest away.

Please protest, cops have nothing better to do *sigh*

You can, of course, support those "many" and "most comments with facts?

:m: Peace.

Which of these statements do you dispute? I am too lazy to compose a Tiassa style response. You do understand the meaning of the word many don't you? This shit is really getting tired. If I were to come up with links that supported my statements, you would then tell me that my sources are biased. How about you getting some facts that prove me wrong using unbiased sources. Otherwise use your right to ignore my post as the bullshit that you seem to imply that it is. :)

The really interesting facts about political protestors are:

Many are unemployed.
Many are young. (therefore inherently ignorant about much in life)
Many don't bother to vote.(here in the US. The protesters in Spain apparently have been too close to the French border for too long. They are now on the same level of cowardice as France.)
Most don't know the difference between a Senator and a Representative.

By all means, protest away.

You're right. All or most or many political protesters should be shot!

Yo! Immane
By all means, protest away.
I'm sure they will but it won't make any difference!

You know on so many things you are so right!
GW is guaranteed to be re-elected (ignore those leftist polls, you can never trust the opinion of a random sample). We will never allow those Iraqis to vote for popular fundimentalists so it will soon become a successful democracy! Those WMD are just lying around waiting for us to find them some day. Those co-ordinated rocket and mortar attacks on those city center hotels in Bagdad are carried out by just a handfull of disorganised and ungratefull unemployed wasters. The terrorist threat will soon be eliminated and any bombs that go off after that will be sombody elses fault. Osama will be sitting in a cell in guantanamo by the end of the week, just you wait and see! The Spainish will suffer endless torments now that AQ say they will conduct no more attacks there. The French too will suffer and I await the day when we return that ugly statue they sent us! Oh that will be a day for American pride!

We should hail our comrades in arms, particularly the great nuclear proliferating Islamic dictatorship of Pakistan and the brave and increasingly popular (well with the tabloids anyway) Tony Bliar. Goodwill to the Poles who will soon vote out their lilly livered leader for suggesting that the war was a big mistake, when your right who needs second thoughts?. And hail too all the brave countries of the coalition whose names we can't recall right now.
Thanks too to Isreal for the development of the wheelchair seeking missile, another great leap forward in the war against those who worship false gods!

Yes Immane the future looks bright!
Lets ignore those protests! Why should we worry about the irrelevant views of a few small millions of ignorant voters. Send them to Iraq! I'm sure the two hundred thousand coalition troops who are still there will keep them in line!

God Bless the President of the civilised world!
Dee Cee

Lets put a different spin on things:
"Many are unemployed."
And therefore have more time to devote to their cause. though the protests ive seen most of them were clearly employed, judging by clothes, their talking, etc.

"Many are young." Therefore possessed of the idealism and energy needed to actually get things changing. Once they settle down with a mortgage and kids they dont want to rock the boat.

"Many don't bother to vote."
Maybe, but given only 50% of the electorate voted last presidential election, I dont think that says much.

Now, doesnt that look better?

Yes my bretheren! Lets go throw rocks at the Starbucks! That will show them!
Next you'll be handing out little red books......

No, I know better, lets go throw bullets at Iraqis!

Little red books? You mean like the copy of the new testament I got at school?

Which of these statements do you dispute? I am too lazy to compose a Tiassa style response. You do understand the meaning of the word many don't you? This shit is really getting tired. If I were to come up with links that supported my statements, you would then tell me that my sources are biased. How about you getting some facts that prove me wrong using unbiased sources. Otherwise use your right to ignore my post as the bullshit that you seem to imply that it is. :)
Have you ever been to a protest? or met a protestor for that matter?
I dispute all of those statements and submit that, for most of them the reverse is true.
See my response in this thread:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34132

No, I know better, lets go throw bullets at Iraqis!

Little red books? You mean like the copy of the new testament I got at school?

Hmmmm if you threw bullets at starbucks, im sure people would pay attention :D Maybe, not the type of attention you want..... ;)

So why were there no protests when 500,000 civilians were being killed in Rwanda? I dont remember Slick Willy sending in troops to protect them?? I guess all of your 'peace and love' is just a bunch of isolationalist BS. Or was it becuase "its only Africa, who cares....."????

http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/posters/sign_14.jpg (http://www.protestwarrior.com/poster_sets/sign_14.pdf)

click on it for a larger version (pdf file)

this picture sums up the entire "protest movement"

So why were there no protests when 500,000 civilians were being killed in Rwanda? I dont remember Slick Willy sending in troops to protect them?? I guess all of your 'peace and love' is just a bunch of isolationalist BS. Or was it becuase "its only Africa, who cares....."????
Well, ill just point something else out. Where was the USA when East timor was being taken over and the locals lost their freedom? Or Burma? Or The Shah of Iran? Or Chile?
Sure, all long, long ago. But in that case what was so hard about taking Saddam out back in 91?
I mean, isolationist bullshit is usually spouted by people who dont understand how trade links the USA to the rest of the world, not those who support charities eg Oxfam, and all the other working tirelessly in Africa to better the peoples lives. You dont hear much about them, except when theres famine.

I just wonder where all of these protesters were when Saddam Hussain was torturing and murdering his own people. Where were these protesters when Iraq invaded Kuwait? Where were they when The Poll Pot regime murdered over 2 million Cambodians? I guess they didn't care much at all about stopping these people from killing innocent people did they? :confused:

I just wonder where all of these protesters were when Saddam Hussain was torturing and murdering his own people. Where were these protesters when Iraq invaded Kuwait? Where were they when The Poll Pot regime murdered over 2 million Cambodians?

Where?
Sat on there arses watching TV same as you cosmic so you can't call them for that.
Well it looks like those protests have raised some hackles and started a
debate!

Guess protesting works then!

BTW if you don't like protesters you can always go out and protest about them!
Dee Cee

Although those were all horrible things and I agree there should have been protests, they are not the same as a situation in which our own government, funded by our tax dollars is doing these things. The events you mentioned were by and large condemned by the world community and by the US government, and the solutions to them were not always obvious.

there were no protests, in part, because the media failed to enflame the protestors
they failed to report these atrocities
they either did so poorly, or not at all

media is a big part in charging people up... and there, it failed miserably

Although its true that people can't protest something they don't know about, the only way the media enflames protestors is if it doesn't present their side of an issue.
One of the major goals of protests is to bring issues to people's awareness.
During the war in Afghanistan for instance, there was virtually no criticism whatsoever. Protests were the only thing that let people know there was another side to it.

if these atrocities are mentioned once or twice, the avg. couch potato (or even an activist-minded person) will forget about it by dinner time

but if this is repeated over and over and over, it will not only be sunk into the person's brain, but will also suggest that this matter of a very high importance (whether it is or not)

But the media informed EVERYONE about Saddams invasion of Kuwait, so where were the anti war protesters then if you say the media didn't inform anyone. It's allot of BS and you damn well know it. The only fucking time the protesters come out of their comfort zones is when their emipres are falling down. Rarely have I EVER seen ANY ANTI WAR PROTESTERS at any event that left wingers or communists or were having it their way. It seems that WE ALL know who the protesters want to yell and scream at don't we.

it seems that when arabs are killing eachother it's of no concern to them
sort of makes their moral house-of-cards they built for themselves fall apart

but the latest fashion fad of arab kafiya wearing among young white middle-class kids is on the rise

if these atrocities are mentioned once or twice, the avg. couch potato (or even an activist-minded person) will forget about it by dinner time)

but if this is repeated over and over and over, it will not only be sunk into the person's brain, but will also suggest that this matter of a very high importance (whether it is or not)
This may be applicable to many of the events mentioned(they were mostly before my time, so i don't know) as the internet hasn't been the incredible source of information it is today, its quite possible people didn't really know about these events, or didn't register them as major events because of lax coverage.
Today however, I don't know any activists who consider the mainstream media as a major source of information. Most rely on the internet, or on small publications that are made possible by the accesiblity of information online for free, so this is unlikely to be as much a problem.

But the media informed EVERYONE about Saddams invasion of Kuwait, so where were the anti war protesters then if you say the media didn't inform anyone..
There were protest regarding the invasion of Kuwait, however they were against the US sending troops in to kick them out. A great many of the atrocities reported as justification for that war as being perpetrated by Iraqis against the innocent Kuwaitis were revealed, to be irrefutably false.
There's also the fact that the US in some ways made Saddam think he'd be allowed to take Kuwait.


It seems that WE ALL know who the protesters want to yell and scream at don't we.
Yes, their own government. Its just not possible to hold a major protest over every injustice committed by every government around the globe. People, quite rationally prioritize actions that are done in their name by their government for major protests.
There are much smaller protests on all kinds of issues against all kinds of governments, but many of them get virtually no coverage even in the independant media(I passed one a month or so ago about Russia's seizing territory from the Ukraine. Haven't heard a thing about it from anyone anywhere since)

but many of them get virtually no coverage
which means the mainstream media (who have the catapult effect of planting the issue in peoples' brains... then they go and research on the internet) is very selective about the things it chooses to cover

and of course, what is the number one goal of any big business firm, no matter what sector it is in?

you got it: profit maximizing
not "opening peoples' eyes" or to "educate them"

it's the same with other issues.
for example, gang violence and blacks totting guns is probably much less than what the public is charged to believe.

this is one thing i do agree about with Michael Moore

the meida totally enflamed the public

trust me, if enough coverage about the Taliban's treatment of women was done, they'd be gone much sooner... maybe 9/11 would've been prevented? who knows

but many of them get virtually no coverage
which means the mainstream media (who have the catapult effect of planting the issue in peoples' brains... then they go and research on the internet) is very selective about the things it chooses to cover


and of course, what is the number one goal of any big business firm, no matter what sector it is in?

you got it: profit maximizing
not "opening peoples' eyes" or to "educate them"
I agree that the mainstream media are selective, and that they make their selections based on what will not offend advertisers and will draw in viewers, however there are a great many issues online that are completely ignored in the mainstream media, and there are at times protests of issues that are completely ignored by the mainstream media. Most activists don't wait to see something on CNN about an event to research it online, they go online directly and read about whatever people have posted.

[trust me, if enough coverage about the Taliban's treatment of women was done, they'd be gone much sooner... maybe 9/11 would've been prevented? who knows
I don't think so. There was a great deal of coverage about this issue before 9/11 while Bush was still giving the Taliban anti-drug money.
There were even some protests about their treatment of women.

not nearly enough

they make their selections based on what will not offend advertisers
it has nothing to do with offending advertisers. it's all about saturating (creating) the market, which is a delicate process in itself, and then sustaining it.
if you have a big market, and a degree of respectability (CNN, FOX, PBS have respectability from the majority of people... altho not from me or you), you are good for profit maximizing... and advertisers too, are looking for profit maximizing

There have been quite a few instances where articles in newspapers, and TV news items have been censored for fear of offending adertisers.

i'm sure Nike will cancel its advertising campaign on CNN if CNN were to focus on the atrocities in Tibet every single day for 2 weeks

Exactly.

There has to be a few left-leaning people on this forum who can expalin to me why they can protest starbucks and clog up traffic, but they wont bother to stick up for the various 3rd world cultures that get butchered by their governments. Peace and Love my ass.

Exactly.

There has to be a few left-leaning people on this forum who can expalin to me why they can protest starbucks and clog up traffic, but they wont bother to stick up for the various 3rd world cultures that get butchered by their governments. Peace and Love my ass.
What's wrong with the explanations above?

i'm sure Nike will cancel its advertising campaign on CNN if CNN were to focus on the atrocities in Tibet every single day for 2 weeks
Unlikely, but it would cancel it if CNN ran an extended piece on Nike sweatshops.

i'm not even sure about that...
it'd be a horrible PR move for them

JPS,

You want to blame the Media?? So protest organizers can get 100,000 people together to sit and pout about Iraq but they cant get the word out on Rwanda?? Give me a break! There was plenty of Media attention on Rwanda. What I find amusing is that no one did anything untill the thousands of bodies floating down the rivers started polluting the water supplies of Neigboring countries. Why didnt the EU do anything? Where was France? An even better question- Where was Bill Clinton? We sure managed to send troops to Bosnia! We bombed Bosnia! We stopped the Ethnic War in Bosnia! Why not do the same in Rwanda?? Did 500,000 people die in Bosnia?? Nope. Funny how the same UN that bitches that were in Iraq was more than happy to let us bomb Bosnia. Funny how Bosnia is sooo important but yet the Rwandians can get slaughtered at a rate faster than the Jewish Holocaust and yet NO ONE gives a SHIT.
Dont blame it on the Media.
Blame it on the fact that No One cares about Africa Which makes the 'peace' people even bigger Hipocrites.
How sad, there were more protests over Starbucks than a genocide that killed 500,000 people.

JPS,

You want to blame the Media??
No,

From an earlier post of mine in this thread: its just not possible to hold a major protest over every injustice committed by every government around the globe. People, quite rationally prioritize actions that are done in their name by their government for major protests.

yea but you gotta admit the 0.8 million (not 0.5 million) killed is pretty high on the priority list!

Is this:
http://www.protestwarrior.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2656
serious?
(I'm talking about the T-shirt, found on the site http://www.protestwarrior.com/ posted somewhere in the beginning of this thread)?
It is completely disgusting...


PS: The pdf link didn't work... it froze my computer... :rolleyes:

the democratic policies are disgusting?
or the t-shirt pointing the policies out?
... or the way it's being pointed out?

the democratic policies are disgusting?
or the t-shirt pointing the policies out?
... or the way it's being pointed out?
It is a racist message... :rolleyes: ;)

Maybe it is a joke, I don't know. Just doesn't sound like one...

are the democrats racist for supporting these policies, or is the t-shirt 'racist' for 'exposing' them?

I hope you understood it was a mesasge of hatred against black people...

it may be the exposing of racist policies, rather than a racist message

500+ GIs have been killed! (even though theyre doing their job). Lets protest!
800,000 Blacks have been slaughtered in ethinic violence *yawn*. Lets go throw rocks at Starbucks......

Thanks otheadp for the body count update :)

no problem
not that it matters to the Starbucks Martyrs Brigades ...

yea but you gotta admit the 0.8 million (not 0.5 million) killed is pretty high on the priority list!
No argument here. Being twelve at the time I don't know how the left reacted to the genocide, but if there were no protests there certainly should have been.

That doesn't detract from the validity or sincerity of current protests.

Its like yelling at a doctor trying to save someone because you know someone else who died while no one was around.

so you personally were too young. what about the older protestors?
and what about the current crisies? (sp)

i don't see any mass protests against the occupation of Tibet... the apartheid in Zimbabwe (only here, the victims are white farmers) slavery in Sudan... hunger in India, cannibalism in NK
etc.

so you personally were too young. what about the older protestors?
and what about the current crisies? (sp)

i don't see any mass protests against the occupation of Tibet... the apartheid in Zimbabwe (only here, the victims are white farmers) slavery in Sudan... hunger in India, cannibalism in NK
etc.
The situation in Zimbabwe was so horrific that I think there should have been protests, even though the US govt wasn't directly involved in it.

Are you kidding about Tibet? There have been all kinds of protests, its a favorite of many on the left.
Regarding the other issues, what would people protest for? The governments of those countries have no reason to care about protests in the US, and I think US interference in many of those issues is not necessarilly a good idea.

The whole idea that protestors are hypocrites because they didn't protest this issue or that one is ridiculous. "Protestors" are not a political party or organization, they are an incredibly diverse group of people who come together to protest specific issues. Each protest for each issue has a different group of protestors. If you want to complain about them, you have to look at the organizations and individuals involved.

protesting, for the most part, is a hip band-wagon
a fad
a stage, just like puberty and menopause
a way for youngsters to express themselves and feel good about it
"hot damn, i did good today!"
a way for unemployed to occupy themselves
to relieve their conscience of the fact they didn't do shit all day except "protesting", but at least "protesting" is "something" ... "something important"

protesting is also a way to throw shit at starbucks and get away with it. kind of like smashing mail boxes with baseball bats but more fun

it's a way to express yourself and feel the "brotherly love"... the liberation of protesting in the nude. after all, John Lennon did it!

man, just go home

Protestors are people of all ages, from all backgrounds, the vast majority of whom have no interest in breaking windows.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34132

in toronto we have OCAP (ontario coalition against poverty)
they're big on the anti-war, anti-bush, free palestine, free iraq, death to capitalism ideas...

some have no teeth, some haven't had showers in a few weeks, and some i remember giving change on several occasions. oh i'm sure they know everything there is to know about bush's policies or about iraq or about Mao or Marx or whatever

one OCAPer almost attacked me once at a 'pro palestine' rally.... he had a look of a rabied dog

This once again supports my arguement that the protesters care nothing about other countries and 'peace', they only want the U.S. to stay at home and give them money.

man, just go home

I tried a search on "protests during the holocaust" and was surprised not to find many. I guess many people (not these people) (http://econc10.bu.edu/economic_systems/natidentity/ee/bulgaria/bulgjews.htm) took otheadp's advice and decided to go home.
Also, more protests in the US during the time could have loosened the tight US imigration policy to allow more jewish refugees.

That being a group that campaigns against regressive government policies as they affect poor and working people. In addition, we provide direct-action advocacy for individuals against eviction, termination of welfare benefits, and deportation. We believe in the power of people to organize themselves.http://www.ocap.ca/
your experience isn't too surprising.

pro-palestine and pro-israel protests are among the most violent I've seen.
I've been to two pro-palestine demonstrations, and they were the only two demonstrations I've been to that were attacked by people passing by.

it's nice to have a website
but their (ocap) actions speak louder than their words

protests during the holocaust
when people don't have the freedom to protest, it's kind of hard
brown shirts and nazis are not the most pleasant people

what good is it to protest against the Nazis when armies were already in action?
"hm.. let's protest. that'll show Hitler he's hurting our feelings!"

loosened the tight US imigration policy
now, that's one thing that should've happened!
but remember, before the atrocities of the holocaust were made public, Jews still had the religious blood-libel on them... "i don't want these Christkillers in america" (in some places we still do)

i'm not saying there should be no protests at all. actually i'm saying the opposite - there should be more protests
but real protests about real issues... not thru the bandwagon phoenomenon i was talking about

Mr. UN apologizes
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040326/wl_nm/rwanda_un_dc_1

"Some 800,000 Tutsis and Hutu moderates were slain in about 100 days by Hutu extremists and their followers, armed with machetes, garden hoes and spiked clubs. They were spurred on by hateful radio broadcasts. "

In only 100 days! And nothing was done.........how sad.

i'm not saying there should be no protests at all. actually i'm saying the opposite - there should be more protests
but real protests about real issues... not thru the bandwagon phoenomenon i was talking about

Real issues? A country at war is not a real issue? A "good" protest is one which YOU agree on. Right? In ALL protests, there are some that jump on the "bandwagon".

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040326/wl_nm/rwanda_un_dc_1

this is the same organization that people want to police the world?
the same organization Israelis - Jews - should trust with their fate?
the same organization Americans should trust with their fate?
the phrase "never again" comes to mind.

UN is a False Idol
drinker, i think you said it best. UN is a tool for countries with which to fuck other countries

by the way, survivors of the Rwanda holocaust are pissed more at the US than at the UN
because the US is the real cop, not the UN

"You often hear people are upset that we're the world's cop. But guess who they call when someone needs a policeman" -- Colin Powel

otheadp,

Exactly!
"We hate you for sticking your nose in our business! But while youre at it can you please send some troops and some aid?? "

The paper today says that by conservative estimates Saddams govt Killed 300,000 civilians. Heaven forbid we got rid of him............

no, we mustn't

invading countries is immoral!

Every government has the right to kill its Civilians!!
Free Iraq!

it's all about cultural relativism

The paper today says that by conservative estimates Saddams govt Killed 300,000 civilians. Heaven forbid we got rid of him............
How many of those civilians were killed after the first gulf-war?

Hard to say. Does it make a difference? "Oh, he's killing a lot less people these days, we should leave him alone."
Well Stalin didnt kill as many people in his waning days, so I guess that makes it ok that he wiped out a couple of million people......

No, but if all Saddam's killing was done back in the days when he was our friend, then eliminating him now that he's stopped killing doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

imagine John Allen Mohammed escaped from Death Row today
and imagine him being caught 15 years from now
does it still make sense to put him back on Death Row? i mean, so much time has passed since he killed those people...

if he had been living off death row for years without harming anyone and the only way to catch him involved killing thousands of innocent people? No.