Will this possible war turn into a global war?:m:

It could if bush waits too long with korea. Think about it. We are tied up with iraq. What if Iran and korea try to annex a couple of things that they want int their posession? 2 of them got nukes and bush married them together. Wonderful huh. It will be their paranoria that cuases it.

OK, I'll bite. Who exactly, would be foolish enough to attack the US?

Shadows point may be that as America becomes deeply entangled in the Middle East, American deterrence in other potential conflicts elsewhere is diminished.

and......

WWIII. Better let shadows take it from there, though... not my theory.

Fine..Good..but again, who would attack us and why?

I'm not the one to debate on this. As soon as America minds her own business, there will be no attacks on her.

Originally posted by hypewaders
I'm not the one to debate on this. As soon as America minds her own business, there will be no attacks on her.

And I had you pegged as a pessimist. You're an enigma! What an excrutiatingly optimistic statement! (couldn't resist)

:bugeye: :rolleyes:

I only do it to keep you going, Wes. ;)

Originally posted by hypewaders
I only do it to keep you going, Wes. ;)

Lies, all of it lies. :) You do have an interesting perspective, it just... as you have noted... gets under my skin. IRL I'm not nearly the prick that I am on the boards ya know. I call this place sciventusforumus, as it serves to relieve me. :D

It's all good.

Originally posted by immane1
OK, I'll bite. Who exactly, would be foolish enough to attack the US?

I think the answer to your question, can be found in the post you were responding to. N. Korea has a leader who is insane enough to attack the US, but obviously S. Korea would be his first target. In 3 months time, they'll be cranking out nukes like clockwork, while we are getting Bush's oil in Iraq.

Originally posted by immane1
Fine..Good..but again, who would attack us and why?

It seems to me that it's the US itself that's starting it,...

On how events could unfold read this:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13960

I think N korea (Kim) is just trying to get the attention in his usual way and get a non-agression pact with the US so as to secure him so he can get back to his usual shite.
I dont think he would actually attack the US as even he knows its suicide so he would have to be given a serious opening or forced into it imho

It's not Kim who will attack but the US.

the us will attack the us?huh?

Rofl i think he means they will attack N.Korea and given they are brushing off kims offer for total disarmemnt for nothing more than a non-agression pact it seems likely.

the way the us corners and vilifies nations then attacks them in self defence, how can you not expect a counter attack, it seem only fair.

The original question was "Will this start World War III". It depends on how you define "World War".

To reorient the discussion, I would like to start by suggesting that "World War" is any armed conflict involving participants from and action in more than two continents. Comments?

By this definition, the first World War would have been the Napoleonic War. The one we're in now will most likely fit the definintion, so really this should be called WWIV.

Or maybe it should be Dubya's World War; WWW!

On 911 a group of terroists commited acts that were considered an "attack on the USA" and why? simply because they hated us for stationing troops in thier land. Should we believe that a further intrusion by the USA into the middle east will make them less angry?

The definition of war as we knew/know it is changing. It will no longer be a massive attack by one country on another. On the back pages of the news one can read that military attacks are being waged world wide now. Africa, South east asia, Russia, South America, the middle east, and yes of course America.

After the "big" action in Iraq the US will leave behind some occupational forces that the angry ones can take out thier frustrations on. But will that deter further terrorist attacks on America? Not hardly.



If you add all of the current world military actions together We have a bit of a global war already happening.

Bush gets his oil from Iraq then attacks North Korea using the newly found oil as supply. Then after north korea it would be China..

china? hehe.. that'll be the day. I believe that china has taken the USSR's place as the untouchable enemy. I don't see that EVER happening.

China has replaced Mexico as the manucturer of most of our consumer products. They won't want to get into a war with their best customer.

simply because they hated us for stationing troops in thier land. Should we believe that a further intrusion by the USA into the middle east will make them less angry?

I hate for you to simplify it like that. The Muslim terrorists hate us for our Christianity. They hate us for how we treat our women. They hate us for our lifestyle. They hate us for our liberal views on sex. They hate us for our freedom and prosperity.

You try to portray the US as a villain for doing what exactly? Giving the oppressed Jews back their homeland, and then trying to make peace in the region? Is that what you're referring to as stationing troops?

If you're going to link us into it, link the real culprits behind that whole problem into the it: Germany, Europe, and the anti-Semitism therein. Germany just wouldn't take responsibility for what it did to the Jews, so we had to give them a home. If Israel isn't what you're talking about, then what are you talking about?

The definition of war as we knew/know it is changing. It will no longer be a massive attack by one country on another. On the back pages of the news one can read that military attacks are being waged world wide now. Africa, South east asia, Russia, South America, the middle east, and yes of course America.

You portray these religious extremists as justified rebels against a tyranny, which they aren't. They're religious, fanatical zealots. You call these military actions? Are you implying that they are supported by the Middle Eastern governments? How astute.

Why don't we just attack these governments then? If I had my way, we would do all we can to uproot this religious fanaticism by declaring war on the tyrannical Middle Eastern governments and instating democracies and religious freedom in the countries. These Middle Easterners aren't oppressed by the US. They're oppressed by their government, and their fanatical religion.

oops somehow I got a double post

"If Israel isn't what you are talking about what are you talking about?

If you would take the time to read some of the previous replies on this topic it would help. I was responding to the question "who would attack the United states"



I was refering to the fact that during GW1 we stationed troops in Saudi Arabia. They hate us because we are Christians of couse, but at that time, we put christian soldiers on their piece of turf. And that Fact is what Osama used to entice young Islamics to
come here to commit suicidal terrorist acts.

Sorry I thought everyone knew that.

You can make it more complex if you want by describing the various things that they hate about us. And you can involve as many other countries as you want, but the current situation started with 911 and 911 came about because of our previous military presence in Saudi Arabia. I agree that it fueled an existing hatred which "is" about Israel.

Did you ever stop and wonder why we currently have over 100,000 troops living in tents and eating dust in kuwait when they could be in comfortable living quarters in nearby Saudi??

I didn' imply or portray anything other than exactly what I posted. Any inferences were your own.

So you want to wage a war against one billion suicidal religious fanatics? Go ahead but not with my tax dollars. You would only be buying grief for this country that is beyond your imagination.

As far as China being one of our most favored trading nations. (and it is; Bush recently proclaimed it to be.) Go into any Wallmart or major retail chain and try to buy a toaster, can opener, microwave oven, toaster oven, phone answering machine, coffee maker, small television, VCR, hell Black and Decker just signed a big contract to have tools made in China, or anthing considered to be a consumer good, and you will have to turn over one hell of a lot of packages and boxes to find something that "is Not" made in china.

I can't believe that you do not know this. Look up "China USA trade deficit" you will be in for one hell of a shock. Sure China will possibly replace Russia as our arch enemy, but we are helping to put them there

I was refering to the fact that during GW1 we stationed troops in Saudi Arabia. They hate us because we are Christians of couse, but at that time, we put christian soldiers on their piece of turf. And that Fact is what Osama used to entice young Islamics to

Ok, I didn't know about that, but wasn't Saudi Arabia openly in favor of fighting of Iraq at that time? Wouldn't they appreciate that? I do realize that most of our terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, and your probably right. The worst thing is that we have a hard time fighting back against the root cause of this: the fanatical Islamic religion.

Even if we did take over the Middle East, we would be terrorized out of there. I think we could instate democracies in the Middle East, and afterwards terrorism would decrease, but you're right, for the next few years terrorism would be terrible. That's why starting with Iraq is good. Saddam was a secular dictator, and I know that they would be a lot more open to us than Saudia Arabia would be.

Yes the Saudi's were in favor of our attacking Iraq, because they feared that they might be the next country to be invaded by Saddam. I don't actually think that we are really that far apart on our thinking. I just take a much more cautious approach. And I just don't feel that we can ever contain Islamic fundamentalism without suffering an unacceptable loss of American lives both here in this country and in the middle east. gees I just turned over my H/P printer, even that is made in China.:(

The Saudis are sh!tting in their thobes, and all over their Gucci sandals. They were only a little nervous when their most ticked-off subjects were raising hell in Afghanistan and Manhattan. Now they realize it's front door war against the Infidel, & the Americans can't be hidden in the camel paddock anymore- the jig is up: Redneck Bedouins are gettin' uppity, their preachers too... this ruckus ain't over until Osama's fans are in charge in Riyadh, and the Americans leave the Arabian peninsula just like they left Iran. George W. has no idea what kinda Can o' Worms 'n' Wuppass he's fixin' ta pry open with his John Wayne. Texas ain't the only place not to mess with.

In horror from reading JusticeUSA's post, I just picked up my flashlight from when I was in the army. Hehe, at least THAT said made in USA... though it was from like 12 years ago or something. :)

EDIT:

Hey I must be stealing your Justice... USA, because the first TWO things I picked up were made in USA...

Okay, I made it to three. but the remote... well, close enough... made in Indonesia

You should be horrified, Wes: Young Japanese engineers are designing the next generation of technology that will be mass-produced in China, while Young Americans are slacking their way through second-rate educations, many ditching college and lubricating the gears of megacorporations, swapping fatal injuries with Islamic fundamentalists in Baghdad and Boston, while the rest of the world shrugs and moves on.

Get back- get back- get back to where you once belonged. Get back, Joe!

good post you sumed up my concerns in one short paragraph.

The topic here is world warIII, but a "global economy" has changed everything. We have to start thinking outside of the box or we will fail economically and all of our bombs and missiles won't mean diddly squat.

Originally posted by hypewaders
You should be horrified, Wes

Yes I'm quite aware that you prefer me that way.
Originally posted by hypewaders

Young Japanese engineers are designing the next generation of technology that will be mass-produced in China,

True I'm sure, but young engineers all over the world are doing the same thing, and yes.. I mean to get stuff to be mass-produced in china. Oh, and you people should remain aware that a trade deficite doesn't neccesarily mean that we are losing. Maybe they're fucking themselves by giving us cut-rate prices that will eventually put them out of business. I'm not saying that's wholly true, but I'm sure it plays into this.
Originally posted by hypewaders

while Young Americans are slacking their way through second-rate educations, many ditching college and lubricating the gears of megacorporations

Boy you are one to talk. Do YOU have a degree? Are YOU doing anything to stop it? You teach pilots? Okay, how does that help? Put up or shut up? Sheeeeeeeeit. I am the antithesis of your statement. I got a great education and work for a small manufacturing company whom I am trying to make into a medium sized company. Unlike SOME people who can only BITCH about problems, I'm doing something about it AND... I try to motivate others to do so. What do YOU do? Eh, I'll shutup. Maybe you do more than me... still, I think a positive attitude (with recognition of the badness) is the only solution. IMO, YOU, and your doom and gloom attitude are demonstrable evidence of the REAL problem. Okay, NOW I'll shutup.
Originally posted by hypewaders

swapping fatal injuries with Islamic fundamentalists in Baghdad and Boston, while the rest of the world shrugs and moves on.

Uh-huh. Man, you negative bastard.

I've been aptly called an idiot before, and maybe this is supporting evidence, but I think that our "swapping fatal injuries with Islamic fundamentalists" thing is a neccessary evil. I don't like war at all, but I'm convinced (of my own analysis) that it's now or later.. and IMO, sooner is better when we're way ahead of them technologically. We just have to keep the world together until AI either slaughters us or saves us.. letting maniacal freaks run countries that are sympathetic to people who favor the destruction of the US is not going to keep it together.

Eh, I'm just talking shit. I'll try again later when I might make more sense.
Originally posted by hypewaders

Get back- get back- get back to where you once belonged. Get back, Joe!

My name isn't Joe, gawd. :D Hehe.

I hate for you to simplify it like that. The Muslim terrorists hate us for our Christianity. They hate us for how we treat our women. They hate us for our lifestyle. They hate us for our liberal views on sex. They hate us for our freedom and prosperity.

they dont hate the US for their views.. they hate em cuz they are imposed in their cultures... even tho' im for eradicating fundamentalist views becuz human rights are suppressed in these regions, but the worst way to do it is to go and flaunt it around... of course there are fundamentalists who use the argument you've given as motives, but it is just scratchin the surface...

If I had my way, we would do all we can to uproot this religious fanaticism by declaring war on the tyrannical Middle Eastern governments and instating democracies and religious freedom in the countries. These Middle Easterners aren't oppressed by the US

sorry.. posted that one without realizin i missed some other stuff...

there is absolutely no need for outside interference to come in and install democracies.. reform in the middle is happening slowly but surely... need to give it some time.. countries like the UAE are setting example... i currently live in Dubai and it is nothin like the rest of the middle east.. and citizens of other arab countries are visitin the UAE and realizing that fundamentalist attitude isn't necessary... laws are getting more lax in Oman and Bahrain... it will slowly permeate throughout the middle east.. just need some time... ppl over here aren't ready for democracies... you can't just come and uproot a current system and install another one that you personally find favourable... it is quite ignorant to say that fantacism is rampant in the middle east... im not sayin there isn't, but not the way you're describing it... you're makin ppl here sound like savages that need to be annihilated...

there is absolutely no need for outside interference to come in and install democracies.. reform in the middle is happening slowly but surely...

And while we wait, thousands starve, and thousands more are killed by terrorism that is helped by governments. Its going too slowly.

ppl over here aren't ready for democracies

Can we really know that unless we give them a chance to try it?

it is quite ignorant to say that fantacism is rampant in the middle east...

Suicide bombings seem pretty fanatical, compared to the rest of the world. Praying five or whatever times a day seems pretty fanatical, too.

you can't just come and uproot a current system and install another one that you personally find favourable... The oppressed people of Iraq wouldn't find democracy favourable? I've talked to a Saudi Arabian, and he wants democracy. Maybe these people just need a bit of help. Even if they didn't want it, I'm pretty sure they would thank us for it in five years, especially after we helped support them through the changes.

Balder1: Many consider the USA as being oppressive, undemocratic, and filled with religious fundamentalism. The US is just as christian fundamentalist as anywhere else is muslim fundamentalist.

But aren't the relavent issues about governments, not religious fundamentalists... oh wait... the middle east combines church and state.. hmm.. that kind of reminds me of the USSR. Strange. How about that? Maybe the problem is that a "secular" government (mostly at least) that happens to be the most powerful in the world.. coupled with a "global economy".. .inherently as the world economy becomes integrated, cultures will clash. on a fundamental level, that's what's happening now. except in "government" form.

The islamic value system, as in countries like Saudi Arabia... is fundamentally opposed to us as mentioned by the balder1. I mean, in essence.. they hold similar beliefs to Pol Pot don't you think? Hehe, same as the unibomber to an extent. To me, it all seems like a variation on the assertion "technological progress and personal freedoms are bad". Given that the US is basically the polar opposite, someone's got to give or someone's got to go.. ya know?

It doesn't seem to me that there's anyway to give when it's "you're islamic or in exile". Fuck that.

"The religious fundamentalism of the middel east reminds you of the USSR.?" In what way may I ask?

The USSR was an athiest state.
"The one and only time the Russian people ever uttered the words , thank God , was when Joeseph Stalin died in the 1950's."
I, being the old coot and old geezer that I am, remember the previous sentence in "quotes" as being a joke that was going around when Stalin died.

Comparing the Islamic fundamentalists to pol pot, is like comparing Martha stewart, to Adolph Hitler. Some people here apparently slept during world history class.

It is not just the religious fundamentalists that we will have a problem with. Islam itself is a very dedicated and structured religion. How many Christians stop whatever they are doing and pray regularly five times a day? Unless their life is in a crisis, the average person in this country who calls himself a Christian , statistically, doesn't even attend church on a regular basis.

Getting back to the topic WWIII
Who will attack the USA?? No one will make a large scale attack, but we will live in constant danger of small scale attacks both at home and abroad. And those attacks will be further provoked if we try to twist a 1200 year old religion around to our way of thinking.

Originally posted by justiceusa
"The religious fundamentalism of the middel east reminds you of the USSR.?" In what way may I ask?

The USSR was an athiest state.

Yes, they too controlled the religion in their country.

Does that make sense?

And while we wait, thousands starve, and thousands more are killed by terrorism that is helped by governments. Its going too slowly.

huh? plz prove that...

Can we really know that unless we give them a chance to try it?

i take it that you completely ignored what i had to say about how fundamentalist attitudes are changing slowly... dont need to have an abrupt change.. change is happening..


Praying five or whatever times a day seems pretty fanatical, too.

this shows you have absolutely no regard for someone else's belief even if it differs from yours... they might consder christians in america fanatics for prayin to a deified god... this only shows your unsympathetic ignorance towards islam...

The oppressed people of Iraq wouldn't find democracy favourable? I've talked to a Saudi Arabian, and he wants democracy. Maybe these people just need a bit of help. Even if they didn't want it, I'm pretty sure they would thank us for it in five years, especially after we helped support them through the changes.

for a democracy to work there has to be a decent infrastructure in place... you can't just come and destroy the lineage of Sheikhs to put in a democracy... that's ridiculous... how would u know they would thank you in the coming years.... dont make presumptuous statements...

Referring back to the USSR "they too controlled religion in their country. Does that make sense?"

Yes it does make sense, but at the same time there were great differences in the fact that they inforced atheism (non religion). And when the USSR finaly fell apart after over 50 years of controlling religion, there was an immediate revival of religion.

And along with that revival came all of the old hatereds that had previously existed. Those hatreds were, and are to this day, primarily between Christains and Islamics. That is why we have to keep troops in Bosnia to keep them from killing each other.

Most of the problems in all of the former USSR controlled countries are caused by that same religious hatred. Once the Russians pulled out everything reverted back, even after 50 years, to the way it was before the Russians took control after WWII.

What I am getting at is that religion differences and intolerances are a very persistant human trait. They will not just go away because we want them to, or try to force them to.

I am concerned that if we try to dominate a relgion that has never been sucessfully dominated it will bankrupt this nation.
A short term success will turn out to be a long term disaster.

Get rid of Saddam, "hell yes," then get the hell out of Iraq and start a massive blood transfusion into our own very sick economy.

Get rid of Saddam, "hell yes," then get the hell out of Iraq and start a massive blood transfusion into our own very sick economy.
so you mean:
Take the 20bilion$ dollars that it costs for America to re-build Iraq, and spend it on America?

Gosh,...America won't have anything left to spend on it's own economy.

Originally posted by sycoindian


this shows you have absolutely no regard for someone else's belief even if it differs from yours... they might consder christians in america fanatics for prayin to a deified god... this only shows your unsympathetic ignorance towards islam... Dangerous ignorance, we can not just impose our views, democracy may be the best solution for human affairs, but not everybody is going to see that as so obvious.

for a democracy to work there has to be a decent infrastructure in place... you can't just come and destroy the lineage of Sheikhs to put in a democracy... that's ridiculous... how would u know they would thank you in the coming years.... dont make presumptuous statements... True up to a point, Ataturk forced Turkey into the future, a future that some are still unwillling to go to 80 years later, but it seems to have worked. What about Qatar?

Originally posted by justiceusa
I am concerned that if we try to dominate a relgion that has never been sucessfully dominated it will bankrupt this nation.
A short term success will turn out to be a long term disaster.

Actually, several colonial powers did that in the 1800's; France, England, Italy, Spain, & The Netherlands controlled vast muslims populations until the 1940's. What they didn't do, was manage to convert them to either christianity &/or western values. And that will come back to haunt the West, because muslims believe they are fighting off the 3rd wave of Western attacks; two of which have been military, the Crusades & the colonial era. This last one, is a clash of civilizations, of worldviews; of religion, lifestyles, politics, socialization, ideas, family, truth, gods, etc. This may be the most dangerous to islam, because this would break it's suprmancy over 1 billion people & relegate it to the background, as most people do to christianity in the modern West.

Originally posted by justiceusa
Yes it does make sense, but at the same time there were great differences in the fact that they inforced atheism (non religion). And when the USSR finaly fell apart after over 50 years of controlling religion, there was an immediate revival of religion.


Of course there was. I was just trying to say that I think no matter WHAT the country, if they mix control of religion with the state, we're going to have a fundamental problem with them, not because I don't like them, but because it's like matter and anti-matter. Clash and explode. Hopefully, we can keep the damage minimized.
Originally posted by justiceusa

And along with that revival came all of the old hatereds that had previously existed. Those hatreds were, and are to this day, primarily between Christains and Islamics. That is why we have to keep troops in Bosnia to keep them from killing each other.


Hehe... and that's one of the reasons I think a long term US military presence in Iraq is a great idea. (see my thread entitled War on Terror: Strategy http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18885)
Originally posted by justiceusa

Most of the problems in all of the former USSR controlled countries are caused by that same religious hatred.


Ah but one of the many reasons I think religion in general is antiquated and dangerous. Hate it!
Originally posted by justiceusa

Once the Russians pulled out everything reverted back, even after 50 years, to the way it was before the Russians took control after WWII.

What I am getting at is that religion differences and intolerances are a very persistant human trait. They will not just go away because we want them to, or try to force them to.


I concur, I think therefore it becomes our responsibility to control them as best as possible. It used to be the best policy to just let them do their thing and demand that they keep it out of the states, but the "global economy", information tech.. etc.. is making that morally intolerable since we can no longer hide our heads under the covers from it.
Originally posted by justiceusa

I am concerned that if we try to dominate a relgion that has never been sucessfully dominated it will bankrupt this nation.


Hmm.. interesting point (though Randolfo seemed to contradict you, so I don't think "NEVER" is right, it's just been a long time. I honestly don't think anyone expects to dominate the region. As I've said I think it's about involvement, intelligence.. etc. Oh, but if we did begin to bankrupt ourselves I'd find it perfectly acceptable to take Iraq's oil. At least enough to offset our costs for taking his ass out and the rebuilding and the whatnot. I do trust in our government enough to ensure we don't bankrupt ourselves jacking around in the area. It's possible, but I think highly doubtful.
Originally posted by justiceusa

A short term success will turn out to be a long term disaster.


Well, that's all entirely possible but I think inaction now leads to the same eventual result as failed action.
Originally posted by justiceusa

Get rid of Saddam, "hell yes," then get the hell out of Iraq and start a massive blood transfusion into our own very sick economy.

There I think you're way off. The economy is ready to come back I'm pretty sure, it's the looming war that is fucking it up. If we could get that whole thing over with, and we have success (whether or not we go to war) I'm quite sure the economy will come back. I only wish I had a gazillion bucks to invest the day the war starts... or the day before.

Currently it probably is the looming threat of war that is affecting a possible comback of the economy. After the war it will be the cost of the war that will devastate the economy and prevent any comeback in the near future.

100 years ago we could have taken assets (oil) from the loser of a war. "To the victor goes the spoils" used to be a popular expression.

The world doesn't work that way anymore. Multinational oil companies will get the oil. The American people will get the "dip stick"

Dangerous ignorance, we can not just impose our views, democracy may be the best solution for human affairs, but not everybody is going to see that as so obvious.

wat are you trynna say?

True up to a point, Ataturk forced Turkey into the future, a future that some are still unwillling to go to 80 years later, but it seems to have worked. What about Qatar?

can u explain this further to what i was saying or at least expand for me.. thanks...

Reckon maybe Bin Laden could have another go at you at home while you're away unleashing the dogs of war? Any other country needing to feed fat that ancient grudge might try too(emphasis on might) would that be enough to start ww3?