Thought witchcraft trials ended in 1692 (Salem Massachusetts)? Think again.

From this February 14, 2008 UPI press release (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/02/14/saudi_king_asked_to_free_condemned_witch/7223/):
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia, Feb. 14 (UPI) -- Human Rights Watch called on the Saudi king Thursday to void the conviction of a woman facing execution for witchcraft.

More from Religious Intelligence (http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=1619)
Fawza Falih was condemned to death by a court in the town of Quraiyat after confessing under interrogation to having used sorcery to bewitch people. Witchcraft is not a crime under the Saudi penal code, however Sharia, or Muslim religious law, forbids its practice.

Saudi Arabia’s religious police, the Muttawa, arrested Falih in 2006, and after 35 days’ detention and interrogation, she signed a statement confessing to having been a witch. However, at trial Falih repudiated her confession, saying it had been extracted under torture. An appeals court threw out the death penalty in September 2006, but the lower court reinstated it on a “discretionary” basis, for the benefit of “public interest” and to “protect the creed, souls and property of this country.”

I know I'm supposed to say something rather than merely reporting it, but this renders me speechless.

Theocracy: Ain't it grand!

Apparently she weighed more than a duck.

Somebody please send these bass ackwards jackasses a memo to let them know we aren't in the 15th fuckin century anymore. They really need to grow the fuck up.

Just another reason why Muslims really aren't that valuable.

Witches will be witches as I smash in the Chevy
It's gettin, it's gettin, it's gettin kind of heavy

those are the same degenerates that control USA's oil supply.

Muslim Sensibilities FTW!

Before you rush to judgement of Saud because of this, let me tell you that my cousin's half-brother reliably reports that she turned the judge into a newt at the hearing.

He got better, though.

Before you rush to judgement of Saud because of this, let me tell you that my cousin's half-brother reliably reports that she turned the judge into a newt at the hearing.

He got better, though.

*In a British accent* A newt?

One of the amusing parts about the article I read yesterday was about how she wasn't receiving a fair trial in court due to "lack of proper representation on her behalf." At what point does somebody step in and remind the court there is no such thing as "witchcraft"? I mean - what's there to defend?

The only thing she (and her supposed "victims") are guilty of is being loony.

MOD HAT:

This has turned into nothing but a get sam thread. This is not acceptable as personal atacks on members are grounds for banning

This is an offical warning for:

Myles
Letticia
shichimenshyo


If this thread cant stay on topic i will close it

For christ sake you people are a hand full, myles it would have been nice if you had responded by PM rather than here. Everyone else all the posts have been deleted, so have all the offtopic posts below. Stick to the topic and if you have a problem PM me

This is very bad what is happening there. I am sad about it.

[B]MOD HAT:

This has turned into nothing but a get sam thread. This is not acceptable as personal atacks on members are grounds for banning

I dunno, Asguard. Some people are fed up with avoidance. Equivocation is a problem too, of course, but avoidance is getting to be the soup des toutes les jours.

It is obvious that these news are geared toward the now general media consensus of evil Muslims.

I further disagree on this stated topic.

Yeah, the news should stop reporting on Muslims who have crazy beliefs and execute innocent women since uh... fuck. I can't equivocate like sam can.

WTF!!! I will cast a spell on them!!! :)

The saudi govt is supported by the US. People are to anxious to criticise muslims in general instead of looking at the cause of this. The monarchy.If people wanted to change things, they should also put pressure on the US government.

If this happened anywhere other than Saudi Arabia, it would have surprised me.

If this happened anywhere other than Saudi Arabia, it would have surprised me.

You and me both,

Oh Saudi Arabia has an arbitrary legal system which is based on the kings whim? Who would expect something like that from a kingdom where the royal family keeps 90% of the country's wealth for themselves?

What a surprise!:eek:

Hope the jurists gave themselves retroactive immunity for making up laws to suit their purposes



/changes channel

When you compare the oppression of Saudi Arabia to Cuba, Cuba looks very good by comparison. But we have an embargo on Cuba...

Oh Saudi Arabia has an arbitrary legal system which is based on the kings whim?

Kings whim or not, the action of the Saudi's is something that dates back centuries ago. She was tortured by the Muttawa into confessing, again a practice held centuries ago for dealing with witches.

Who would expect something like that from a kingdom where the royal family keeps 90% of the country's wealth for themselves?

Why then, would they care about a lone woman practicing witchcraft? Unless of course, it was entirely religiously motivated.

What a surprise!:eek:

Hope the jurists gave themselves retroactive immunity for making up laws to suit their purposes

No surprise, sam. Perhaps they do make up laws to suit their purposes, but you'll have to explain what motivated the purpose here?

/changes channel

More like, runs and hides.

Why then, would they care about a lone woman practicing witchcraft? Unless of course, it was entirely religiously motivated.


Or the person she screwed over has some serious connections.

Or the person she screwed over has some serious connections.

You could be right about that, from the article:

"Several witnesses claimed that Falih had bewitched them, including one man who said she had made him impotent."

That statement reminds me of General Ripper's from Dr. Stranglove.

"A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard core commie works.

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of essence."

ok but i am not saying there are no witches. i've been cursed by a few right here.

When you compare the oppression of Saudi Arabia to Cuba, Cuba looks very good by comparison. But we have an embargo on Cuba...

Ah, but Cuba has no oil.

Or witches, come to think of it.

Coincidence?

Damn you beat me to it!

Now if Bush smoked SEEGARS, that would be a different matter

Kings whim or not, the action of the Saudi's is something that dates back centuries ago. She was tortured by the Muttawa into confessing, again a practice held centuries ago for dealing with witches.

Why then, would they care about a lone woman practicing witchcraft? Unless of course, it was entirely religiously motivated.

No surprise, sam. Perhaps they do make up laws to suit their purposes, but you'll have to explain what motivated the purpose here?

More like, runs and hides.

Was she waterboarded, d'you think, into admitting her terrorist inclinations?

Its obviously an issue of national security.:yawn:

Was she waterboarded, d'you think, into admitting her terrorist inclinations?

Its obviously an issue of national security.:yawn:

Oh, SAM don't you know better than to argue like that. It's a logical fallacy/

Who says waterboarding is ok ? But, in any event we are talking of what is going on in Saudi. If you want to air your views on waterboarding, do it elsewhere,

Was she waterboarded, d'you think, into admitting her terrorist inclinations?

So, witchcraft is the practice of terrorism?

Its obviously an issue of national security.

Or, perhaps mistaken identity? :rolleyes:

Oh, SAM don't you know better than to argue like that. It's a logical fallacy/

Who says waterboarding is ok ? But, in any event we are talking of what is going on in Saudi. If you want to air your views on waterboarding, do it elsewhere,

Yeah, we really must get around to stopping support for oppressive regimes one of these days. :shy:

Yeah, we must get around to stopping support for oppressive regimes one of these days. :shy:

That's no answer and you know it. It just shows you are on the back foot.
The Yanks are not supporting Saudi; they need their oil and the money they spend on armaments.

But what has that got to do with a bunch of cavemen who believe in executing someone for witchcraft ? Just admit it's wrong and move on. Deep down, you know it's indefensible.

That's no answer and you know it. It just shows you are on the back foot.
The Yanks are not supporting Saudi; they need their oil and the money they spend on armaments.

But what has that got to do with a bunch of cavemen who believe in executing someone for witchcraft ? Just admit it's wrong and move on. Deep down, you know it's indefensible.

I'll make a note of it. When we don't need the Sauds anymore, we'll liberate them.

I'll make a note of it. When we don't need the Sauds anymore, we'll liberate them.

Again you are wrong. It's not the Saudi royal tyrants who are behind this. It's some of their backward subject. You know that very well

Again you are wrong. It's not the Saudi royal tyrants who are behind this. It's some of their backward subject. You know that very well

Really, do tell me about the legal system of Saudi Arabia.

Whats the law on witchcraft? Who exactly imposes these laws? How?

The archetype of the witch has been used throughout history to prevent women from gaining respect and influence.

During the Middle Ages in Europe an amazing thing happened. The life expectancy for women had been shorter than for men since the dawn of the Neolithic era, because of the complications of childbirth. But warfare became so widespread that the life expectancy of men actually dropped below that for women!

As a result there were far more old women around than old men. Add to this the fact that women had traditionally been healers and counselors because of their enforced domestic experience, and the male bastions of the palace and the church noticed that the citizens were getting most of their useful advice from old women rather than men who had titular power.

This was a big threat, so they spread the myth that the wisdom of old women was not gained from life experiences, but from consorting with or being possessed by demons.

Many fundamentalist Muslim communities--with their veils, clitoridectomies, and entire lawbooks full of proscriptions--make many fundamentalist Christian communities look like feminist training camps. The men who wield the power in those Stone Age societies cannot afford to have any women get "uppity" and gain respect. So the old time-tested "witch" archetype has been put back in service.

Really, do tell me about the legal system of Saudi Arabia.

Whats the law on witchcraft? Who exactly imposes these laws? How?

I give up.

Really, do tell me about the legal system of Saudi Arabia.

Whats the law on witchcraft? Who exactly imposes these laws? How?

A good question, but does it matter in this case? A woman has been sentenced to be executed because of a specious confession. That's all that really matters, especially to her.

~String

A good question, but does it matter in this case? A woman has been sentenced to be executed because of a specious confession. That's all that really matters, especially to her.

~String

And? Human rights orgs are doing what they can. Which is more than can be said for those supporting such oppressive rulers. Meanwhile, 25,000 children died of starvation today.

And? Human rights orgs are doing what they can. Which is more than can be said for those supporting such oppressive rulers. Meanwhile, 25,000 children died of starvation today.

And what will Allah do this day?

Watch a witch burn or save 25,000 of children from dying of starvation?

Film at eleven.

Next up, dead children, how do they stack up?

Somebody please send these bass ackwards jackasses a memo to let them know we aren't in the 15th fuckin century anymore. They really need to grow the fuck up.

We are not, but they are. There are still people living in the stone age. And there are people living in our future. Culture time is relative.

And what will Allah do this day?

Watch a witch burn or save 25,000 of children from dying of starvation?

Film at eleven.

Next up, dead children, how do they stack up?

If you're waiting for a miracle to solve your problems, you'll be waiting a long long time.

One hour of contemplation is better than seventy years of prayer-Mo

The archetype of the witch has been used throughout history to prevent women from gaining respect and influence.

During the Middle Ages in Europe an amazing thing happened. The life expectancy for women had been shorter than for men since the dawn of the Neolithic era, because of the complications of childbirth. But warfare became so widespread that the life expectancy of men actually dropped below that for women!

As a result there were far more old women around than old men. Add to this the fact that women had traditionally been healers and counselors because of their enforced domestic experience, and the male bastions of the palace and the church noticed that the citizens were getting most of their useful advice from old women rather than men who had titular power.

This was a big threat, so they spread the myth that the wisdom of old women was not gained from life experiences, but from consorting with or being possessed by demons.

Many fundamentalist Muslim communities--with their veils, clitoridectomies, and entire lawbooks full of proscriptions--make many fundamentalist Christian communities look like feminist training camps. The men who wield the power in those Stone Age societies cannot afford to have any women get "uppity" and gain respect. So the old time-tested "witch" archetype has been put back in service.


I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Muslims do not refer to the practice as 'witchcraft', it is simply called ‘black magic’ (can be practiced by both men and women). The deliberate and callous targeting of old women must have come from Europe in the Middle Ages, I do not think anything like that has ever happened in other societies (including amongst Muslims).

If you're waiting for a miracle to solve your problems, you'll be waiting a long long time.

One hour of contemplation is better than seventy years of prayer-Mo

Tell that to the woman who is contemplating her vicious execution.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Muslims do not refer to the practice as 'witchcraft', it is simply called ‘black magic’ (can be practiced by both men and women). The deliberate and callous targeting of old women must have come from Europe in the Middle Ages, I do not think anything like that has ever happened in other societies (including amongst Muslims).

You are wrong. There have been two cases of young UK Muslim women being beaten to death in an attempt to exorcise a djinn. How many others are severely beaten without dying is anybody's guess.

Tell that to the woman who is contemplating her vicious execution.

Lets hope she is not depending on a miracle either.

Like the girl sentenced to lashes for rape, she might be better advised to use the media to escape (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22293189/) a ridiculous (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/17/saudi.rape.victim/) legal system.

No telling what the benefits (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325950,00.html) of speaking out may be.

The Muslim world is often derogatorily referred to as being stuck in the 15th century of some such, but the fact is that 'uppity' women in the US, for example, were given lobotomies - literal or chemical - into the second half of the twentieth century. Right now in the US, personal use of drugs can put you, especially if you are black or latino, in a place where you stand a good chanced of being raped and possibly being owned by another prisoner.

And my guess is that current psychiatric pharmaceutical practices are going to be looked back on as as barbaric as debtor's prisons and the practices of leeches and barbers are by our generations.

But I suppose rats and other experimental animals can take some solace in that we in the West (and everywhere else for that matter) like to experiment on humans almost as much as them.

i would have to agree with sam here. Its terrible but whatever you call it witch craft, terriousm, evil commies, enermie combatants, they are all just lables people use to dispose of political prisioners

How is that known, Asguard? Maybe the Saudis really do think that way. In fact, it's far more likely they do; it's exceedingly hard to believe they would hesitate to execute someone considered any kind of political threat on that very basis.

I was also amused at Ghost's prevarication that the persecution of old female "witches" must be some Western-influenced thing. Ha! But by all means; blame that which one hates! I think the legal history of "female witchcraft" in dar-al-islam will probably bear out evidence of its punishment there as well. Still working for those moderates at MPAC-UK, Ghost? :D

GeoffP im confused as to your meaning. Are you saying that is NOT why cultures through out history have used these titles?

Look at the inquisition, look at america, look at migabie. Thoughout history there has always been ways to devide "us" and "them" and if you dont agree that means your one of "them" and we can do anything we want to you. Mostly its been religion but also comunisium, and terrisium (although i could say this is a neat lable for another religious war)

Or are you just saying you dont think this aplies in this case?

Of course not. These people almost certainly believe that the woman was, in point of actual fact, a witch, much as gangs of crazed Pilgrims though about some of their women. Belief in jinn (ghosts) is quite prevalent in Saudi society as a whole, to hear some visitors tell of it; interestingly, the accusation was that the woman employed jinn to do her "witchery". You don't honestly think the Saudis would mask some other kind of witch-hunt as a literal witch-hunt? Why would they need to? They kill and imprison lots of people for any sort of supposed "religious crime". Which "ism" is the woman meant to represent? Witchism? Or Jinnism?

Of course not. These people almost certainly believe that the woman was, in point of actual fact, a witch, much as gangs of crazed Pilgrims though about some of their women. Belief in jinn (ghosts) is quite prevalent in Saudi society as a whole, to hear some visitors tell of it; interestingly, the accusation was that the woman employed jinn to do her "witchery". You don't honestly think the Saudis would mask some other kind of witch-hunt as a literal witch-hunt? Why would they need to? They kill and imprison lots of people for any sort of supposed "religious crime". Which "ism" is the woman meant to represent? Witchism? Or Jinnism?

You have put your finger on it but don't expect to be understood by some of the people on here. As I mentioned above, two young Muslim girls were beaten to death by relatives who later claimed it was their intention to exorcise a jinn. We are dealing with primitive people and I cannot see how anyone can deny that. But they do. It's beyond comprehension.

Would you execute them?

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/741/witchejy0.jpg

How would you execute them?

no but i would do something else with them:p

Well if i was single anyway:p

The Muslim world is often derogatorily referred to as being stuck in the 15th century of some such, but the fact is that 'uppity' women in the US, for example, were given lobotomies - literal or chemical - into the second half of the twentieth century. Right now in the US, personal use of drugs can put you, especially if you are black or latino, in a place where you stand a good chanced of being raped and possibly being owned by another prisoner.

And my guess is that current psychiatric pharmaceutical practices are going to be looked back on as as barbaric as debtor's prisons and the practices of leeches and barbers are by our generations.

But I suppose rats and other experimental animals can take some solace in that we in the West (and everywhere else for that matter) like to experiment on humans almost as much as them.

In the first place you are not addressing the issue; you are avoiding it.We are talking of what is happening today in Saudi Arabia. Is it your intention to support what is going on ?

If you want to talk about medical practices in the US, we can do so but let's not conflate one issue with another; there is no logical reason to do so.

To say that experiments were carried out on human beings may be true in some sense, but what you derogatorily call experiments were motivated by a desire to help huimanity, not to punish individuals. How can you compare that to the primitive mindset of people who behave as they do in some Muslim countries. And then you mention rats which, as I see it, is purely and enotive argument to bolster your case.

So, let's be clear . Do you support what is going on in Saudi ? Having answered that, we can discuss the other matters you refer to , on another thread. For the record, I have said elsewhere that I regard waterboarding as a regression to a time when ducking stools were used to extract confessions from "witches". I did not take the line, well look at what goes on in Saudi Arabia because each case should should be judged on its merits.

Lets hope she is not depending on a miracle either.

Like the girl sentenced to lashes for rape, she might be better advised to use the media to escape (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22293189/) a ridiculous (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/17/saudi.rape.victim/) legal system.

No telling what the benefits (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325950,00.html) of speaking out may be.

As usual, your argument is clear but not to the point, at least on this topic

GeoffP im confused as to your meaning. Are you saying that is NOT why cultures through out history have used these titles?

Look at the inquisition, look at america, look at migabie. Thoughout history there has always been ways to devide "us" and "them" and if you dont agree that means your one of "them" and we can do anything we want to you. Mostly its been religion but also comunisium, and terrisium (although i could say this is a neat lable for another religious war)

Or are you just saying you dont think this aplies in this case?

Its not so common to see belief in jinn exorcism in Saudi Arabia, its more common in Egypt. However, belief in black magic (not witchcraft) is very common, and is especially bad for someone who has the bad luck to "foretell" catastrophes. But at a legal level? Nope, its just an excuse to get rid of someone for some other reason. There are no laws on witchcraft.

There are those that disagree about the absence of laws on witchcraft in islam. Seems like a fair bit of them:

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=92810&ln=eng

There are those that disagree about the absence of laws on witchcraft in islam. Seems like a fair bit of them:

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=92810&ln=eng

From the link:

" Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Jibreen (may Allaah preserve him) said:

It is not permissible to undo a spell with another spell, by asking the practitioner of witchcraft to undo his work which is witchcraft, because that implies approval of him and his work, when in fact he is to be executed once it is known and proven that he is a practitioner of witchcraft. The hadd punishment is striking with the sword."

Not only do they react violently to witchcraft, they acknowledge witchcraft as valid. One fairy tale propping up another with the result being death by sword.

Is this a video game, or what?

Hmm, I have never heard of witchcraft being illegal, merely not to be believed in Islam.


Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Jibreen

Who is that?

[QUOTE=S.A.M.;1754997]Hmm, I have never heard of witchcraft being illegal, merely not to be believed in Islam.



Who is that ?

Well you have now

Hmm, I have never heard of witchcraft being illegal, merely not to be believed in Islam.

Sam never heard of it, so it must not be true. :shrug:

I guess no one else knows who he is either.

I guess no one else knows who he is either.

A scholar and teacher of the Quran and Sunnah who lived in the 14th century.

A scholar and teacher of the Quran and Sunnah who lived in the 14th century.

Looks like he was into the paranormal himself.


Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Jibreen (may Allaah preserve him) was asked about the ruling on women wearing jeans.
He replied:

“As for women wearing pants or trousers, this is not permitted, even if she is on her own or in front of other women or her husband, except if she is in a closed room with her husband only. Apart from that, it is not permitted because it shows the details of her body and makes her get used to these clothes. So she is not permitted to wear these clothes at all.”

(al-Nukhbah min al-Fataawaa al-Nisaa’iyyah, p. 30).

They had jeans in the 14th century?

I guess no one else knows who he is either.

Looks like he was into the paranormal himself.

It's so much fun catching you in a lie. :blbl:

It's so much fun catching you in a lie. :blbl:

www.google.com. :rolleyes:

www.google.com. :rolleyes:

Oh yes, back up one lie with another.

So, that's the first time you ever used google? Just discovered it, did you?

:roflmao:

Oh yes, back up one lie with another.

So, that's the first time you ever used google? Just discovered it, did you?

:roflmao:

Nope, which is why I asked who he is.

Ladies, gentlemen: ask we speak of Google, it should be understood the simplicity of finding moresuch proofs. I saw no immediate end to the list of websites supplied.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=izs&q=clueless&btnG=Search

I did wonder where your motivation was coming from. :D

That makes me want to vomit.

They probably think that the weather is caused by the gods too.

.

They probably think that the weather is caused by the gods too.

That would be Huey..sorry, back to the thread.

You are wrong. There have been two cases of young UK Muslim women being beaten to death in an attempt to exorcise a djinn.


First I've heard of this. Please post some evidence.

How many others are severely beaten without dying is anybody's guess.


= 0.

Whats wrong with having a few witches?

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/18182.jpg

she could practice anything she wants to.

First I've heard of this. Please post some evidence.

= 0.

It happens quite a bit, apparently. If there's even less reporting in the islamic community - as there likely is - then the numbers probably double or triple.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/a-question-of-honour-police-say-17000-women-are-victims-every-year-780522.html

Quite:
http://www.google.com/search?q=domestic+killings&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

It happens quite a bit, apparently. If there's even less reporting in the islamic community - as there likely is - then the numbers probably double or triple.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/a-question-of-honour-police-say-17000-women-are-victims-every-year-780522.html

I'm sure if Britain simply denied VISAs to the marriage partner then the rate would go way down. The simple fact is a lot of people marry just to get the free meal ticket out of their crappy 3rd world into 1st world Europe.

The 19-year-old fled, but less than a month after making the grainy video on a mobile phone, Banaz was dead. Her naked body was found buried in a yard in Birmingham in 2006, more than 100 miles from her London home. She had been raped and tortured by men hired by her uncle to kill her. Mahmood's father, uncle and one of her killers were sentenced to a total of 60 years in jail for the murder.


Mohmood's probably getting pretty use to the taste of balls and soap right bout now. Good. Sick f*ckers.


Anyway, no one is surprised we have the same problems here in Sydney. Can you imagine what it must be like to be a woman in Pakistan?

Probably easier, I saw more burkas in the States than in Mumbai

That's odd. I hadn't heard of state-sanctioned mysogynistic killings here.

Its all about perspective

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/21/international/asia/21gitmo.html

Possibly so. But its the broader trends that are worrisome. Now Iran is arresting women en masse for inappropriate dress. (Men too, mind, but in fewer numbers.)

Yeah, imagine that. Demonisation actually enforces fundamentalism. Who woulda thunk it.

Come on. You're blaming that on the US being mean to Iran? If that's so, the Yanks should be able to claim the same thing going back a hundred years.

Its only going to get worse:

On Friday afternoon in an Islamabad bookshop, Maheen Asif, 33, leafed through a women's magazine, and paused for only a moment when asked for her impression of Guantánamo Bay.

"Torture," she said, as her daughters, 8 and 5, scampered through the stalls. "The first word that comes to my mind is 'torture' - a place where Americans lock up and torture Muslims in the name of terrorism."

Guess who just decided her daughters should be kept away from anything resembling western values.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/21/international/asia/21gitmo.html

The counter to that is simple education. Frankly, I have little doubt that any arrest of muslims for any reason might play quite well in the conspiracy climates of Islamabad, Riyadh, Baghdad, Ankara and Cairo. I appreciate that Guantanamo has a bad name in the East and that the US should charge someone with something (which they have, in fact), but it's not related to liberalization trends in dar-al-islam.

When 6 million dead people litter your country, come back and say that again, with conviction.

Were they all arrested and shipped to Guantanamo?

Which six million is this again? I assume you're not referring to Ashkenazi Jews here.

Ah, did it not make any news at all? Not surprising. Only some backward Muslims after all.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2958.shtml

First off...."drug crazed bomber pilots"? I'm having some trouble taking this writer too seriously. And deliberate civilian massacres going on "every day"? The Afghans themselves approve of the intervention, last I heard, but they don't notice 6 million dead? And he draws attention to the "forces of the former Axis powers", eh? So the Germans. You recall the Canadians are in Afghanistan. I'm a bit skeptical. There seems to be a smidgeon of hyperbole in the report.

Uh, don't worry, the news is all over the Muslim media. I'm sure they will be happy to hear your explanations.

Uh, don't worry, the news is all over the Muslim media. I'm sure they will be happy to hear your explanations.

Blind faith sheeple. To what benefit is their in continuing war?

Uh, don't worry, the news is all over the Muslim media. I'm sure they will be happy to hear your explanations.

Amazing. I'm being browbeaten by someone for a possible paranoid response by people to a number that is probably fictional for my being rational and objective about the source article.

That's one too many stops on the crazy train for a single evening.

Good night.

Perhaps we better just discuss the one woman being executed in Saudi Arabia. Now that is a well researched completely verified story.

Lets uh, ignore the 6.6 million in Afghanistan.

I am in full favor of the USA getting completely out of the ME.

GeoffP westen sociaty procicutes people for the same thing. If i strip naked and walk down the street i would be arested. Same if my partner walked down the street naked but she would proably be oggled by the cops first

What the hell is the difference

Looks like he was into the paranormal himself.


Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Jibreen (may Allaah preserve him) was asked about the ruling on women wearing jeans.
He replied:

“As for women wearing pants or trousers, this is not permitted, even if she is on her own or in front of other women or her husband, except if she is in a closed room with her husband only. Apart from that, it is not permitted because it shows the details of her body and makes her get used to these clothes. So she is not permitted to wear these clothes at all.”

(al-Nukhbah min al-Fataawaa al-Nisaa’iyyah, p. 30).


Hooray ! I have something I agree with at last. Good guy that Shayk. I too hate women in trousers; I go for very short skirts and suspender belts supporing black stockings

Perhaps we better just discuss the one woman being executed in Saudi Arabia. Now that is a well researched completely verified story.

Lets uh, ignore the 6.6 million in Afghanistan.

Epic fail if you believe those numbers. Utterly epic. The number is closer to 8,000, which is less than 6.6 million.

omg, those crazy saudis... But then again, what do you expect from a US ally? And the worst thing is that the US keeps supporting the Saudis and then wonders why the citizens of Saudiland hate the royal family and the US...

Seriously though, witchcraft is total bs and nowhere in the Quran is it shown to be real. It is disproved of just as worshipping Jesus as the son of God is disproved.

Epic fail if you believe those numbers. Utterly epic. The number is closer to 8,000, which is less than 6.6 million.

Who counted?

Who counted?

HRW
WHO
Amnesty
D.O.D.

Take your pick.

all i can say is THANK G-D!

my p3nis is safe from all kinds of impotence-inducing spells.

HRW
WHO
Amnesty
D.O.D.

Take your pick.

What are their sources? Wouldn't be the NATO troops would it?

Can I see some links please? To sources?

Oh and btw Sam, youre rgith. Islam does not teach that witchcraft is possible.

Are Witches mentioned in the OT?

The way I am beginning to see the Muslim world is living about 600 years behind the rest of us. Kill Witches. Banning other religous belief. Ruled by Monarches. etc... maybe in the year 2600 they'll be just about where we were in 2006...


just kidding :p


Seriously, are Witches mentioned in the OT?

Seriously though, witchcraft is total bs and nowhere in the Quran is it shown to be real. It is disproved of just as worshipping Jesus as the son of God is disproved.

Disproved by whom?

....Seriously, are Witches mentioned in the OT?

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

so what they are doing is biblical. :shrug:

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

so what they are doing is biblical. :shrug:

If you had only told me earlier, I'd have got aticket to Saudi with a pocketfull of stones. Party pooper !

Disproved by whom?

I meant disapproved. Fast typer makes mistakes :p The fact is that before Islam came along people had all kinds of customs and beliefs and they called upon others beside God for help. That is why it is disapproved of.

I meant disapproved. Fast typer makes mistakes :p The fact is that before Islam came along people had all kinds of customs and beliefs and they called upon others beside God for help. That is why it is disapproved of.

Muslims have all kinds of customs and beliefs that are disapproved in modern society. Executing witches is one.

Muslims have all kinds of customs and beliefs that are disapproved in modern society. Executing witches is one.

Just cause Saudiland convicted someone of witchcraft its instantly a Muslim belief? Grow up ffs

GeoffP westen sociaty procicutes people for the same thing. If i strip naked and walk down the street i would be arested. Same if my partner walked down the street naked but she would proably be oggled by the cops first

What the hell is the difference

The difference between being arrested for supposedly being a witch in a country that thinks rubber hoses are recreational jail tools, and being arrested for walking naked down the street, in a country where your civil rights have at least nominal protection? That difference?

The difference between being arrested for supposedly being a witch in a country that thinks rubber hoses are recreational jail tools, and being arrested for walking naked down the street, in a country where your civil rights have at least nominal protection? That difference?

Dont forget, despite the hatred Muslims have towards the House f Saud, it is still an ally of the US. And the US was also great friends with the Taliban until they didnt want that oil-pipe in their backyard.

actually i was refering to your critisium of them for aresting people for inapropriate dress like it was the ONLY country in the world that did it. I had the same fight when we were invading afganistan to "liberate" women from wearing a berka. When is someone going to liberate the US and Australia from OUR "public indecencie" laws

Just cause Saudiland convicted someone of witchcraft its instantly a Muslim belief? Grow up ffs

Apparently, it must be a Muslim belief to execute witches. Otherwise, why else would they do it? Get a brain.

despite the hatred Muslims have ...

Why would Muslims have hatred towards other people, isn't Islam the religion of peace?

Apparently, it must be a Muslim belief to execute witches. Otherwise, why else would they do it? Get a brain.

This has got to be the stupidest argument I've ever heard. Just because a corrupt monarchy chooses to make this a law, doesn't mean it's accepted in Islam. You realize the King and all his high-class buddies sleep with hundreds of women, drink excessively, and have dancers for viewing pleasure? Does that somehow make these things permissible in Islam?

This has got to be the stupidest argument I've ever heard. Just because a corrupt monarchy chooses to make this a law, doesn't mean it's accepted in Islam. You realize the King and all his high-class buddies sleep with hundreds of women, drink excessively, and have dancers for viewing pleasure? Does that somehow make these things permissible in Islam?

Apparently, it does. Your argument, therefore, is with the King.

Will you now claim the King isn't a Muslim?

Apparently, it does. Your argument, therefore, is with the King.

Will you now claim the King isn't a Muslim?

I can't speak on behalf of what he truly believes. I will say that his actions are contrary to that of the Muslim faith. I can't say much more than that.

15ofthe19

If you post that again i will ban you

15ofthe19

If you post that again i will ban you

You know, you probably would. And that says a shit load more about you, and this forum, than it does about me. You would ban me, simply for highlighting what has been reiterated many times, even by other moderators. YOU NEED SPELL CHECK. It ain't personal, but if you're going to wear the mod hat, you need it. This is an English speaking forum. BTW, to those of you who missed it, all I did was highlight every word he misspelled. That's just awful behavior, isn't it?

http://bestweekever.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/more_you_know1.jpg

Apparently, it does. Your argument, therefore, is with the King.

Will you now claim the King isn't a Muslim?

The House of Saud is like the hypocrites described in the Quran. A king who has major shares in playboy and has playboy parties at his palace, drinks alcohol liberally and kills Muslim in the Great Mosque and lets dogs enter there.... Yeah, thats a Muslim alright :rolleyes:

Saudiland is a monarchy, a brutal dictatorial regime supported by the US. The US supports now and has supported over the decades dozens of other regimes like this hence the hatred towards the US in some countries.

....all I did was highlight every word he misspelled. That's just awful behavior, isn't it?.....

That's a bannable offense?? :eek:
Can that be put in the rules of sci-forums?

That's a bannable offense?? :eek:
Can that be put in the rules of sci-forums?

I think the rules are defined by the individual strengths (and weaknesses) of the moderators. You can't blame some of them. This is the closest thing to real authority they will ever see.

Uh oh, I hear someone coming. We better go...

/turns up collar, hustles down the block
//the sciforums GRU can be brutal

I can't speak on behalf of what he truly believes. I will say that his actions are contrary to that of the Muslim faith. I can't say much more than that.

Most if not all Muslims act contrary to their faith, you included. Irrelevant. Muslims execute witches. Demonstrate where witches run free in a Muslim state, can you?

The House of Saud is like the hypocrites described in the Quran. A king who has major shares in playboy and has playboy parties at his palace, drinks alcohol liberally and kills Muslim in the Great Mosque and lets dogs enter there.... Yeah, thats a Muslim alright

Regardless of your irrelevant opinion of the matter, they are Muslims.

Saudiland is a monarchy, a brutal dictatorial regime supported by the US. The US supports now and has supported over the decades dozens of other regimes like this hence the hatred towards the US in some countries.

So, it's the fault of the US that Muslims believe in witchcraft and execute witches? Idiot.

Dont forget, despite the hatred Muslims have towards the House f Saud, it is still an ally of the US. And the US was also great friends with the Taliban until they didnt want that oil-pipe in their backyard.

The Saudis merely represent the extremis of religious law, not an isolated point outside its continuum. They are symptomatic of a widespread, endemic problem present to one degree or another in every islamic country.

We readily admit that the West has societal problems. Why can the East not do the same for itself?

i loved reading how they are "stuck in the dark ages". Strange because i didnt think the US was formed in the dark ages, i thought it was MUCH latter than that. Oh and didnt THEY burn witches??

Its just a political excuse to despose of someone who is incoveniant, the US and others do it all the time so stop playing with semantics

Asguard, we refer to the period of "witch"-burning in the West as an intellectually backwards time, and we are right to do so. It is therefore more than appropriate to make the same criticism of the Saudis, especially in an age of modern telecommunication.

I reiterate: the Saudis are quite capable and have sufficient political will to execute someone just for "espionage" or "treachery" without explicitly needing to dredge up the accusation of witchcraft. In short: they do it because they believe it.

I recall an account of a contractor that was teaching a class in Riyadh. He wanted to explain the idea of a myth to his class, so he invoked jinns. He was mystified when they still didn't get it; then he realized that they in fact did all believe in jinns. He asked for a count by hands and, sure enough, they did. People in Saud believe different things than you or I. Sam may have run with a different crowd, but it's definitely present.

Asguard, we refer to the period of "witch"-burning in the West as an intellectually backwards time, and we are right to do so. It is therefore more than appropriate to make the same criticism of the Saudis, especially in an age of modern telecommunication.

I reiterate: the Saudis are quite capable and have sufficient political will to execute someone just for "espionage" or "treachery" without explicitly needing to dredge up the accusation of witchcraft. In short: they do it because they believe it.

I recall an account of a contractor that was teaching a class in Riyadh. He wanted to explain the idea of a myth to his class, so he invoked jinns. He was mystified when they still didn't get it; then he realized that they in fact did all believe in jinns. He asked for a count by hands and, sure enough, they did. People in Saud believe different things than you or I. Sam may have run with a different crowd, but it's definitely present.


You don't have to go to Saudi to find believers in jinns. I mentioned elsewhere that two you Muslim girls were beaten to death here in the UK because it was believed they were possessed by jinns.

Fucking hell.

You don't have to go to Saudi to find believers in jinns. I mentioned elsewhere that two you Muslim girls were beaten to death here in the UK because it was believed they were possessed by jinns.

There are dowry deaths in India where such excuses are made ie she was possessed by demons.

The real reasons are almost always far more pragmatic. ie money or ego

I'm sure non-Eastern wife beaters also use many creative excuses.

Umm can someone PLEASE tell me what the difference between small minded inderviduals beliving in witches and small minded people in the US (and else where) beliving that demons have to be exorcised?

Please dont tell me this doenst happen because it DOES, here of aproxamatly one case a year where someone was killed in some form of exocium

There is no law in Saudi Arabia except what they want at the time. Apart from England, Saudi is the most lawless place on earth.

There are dowry deaths in India where such excuses are made ie she was possessed by demons.

The real reasons are almost always far more pragmatic. ie money or ego

I'm sure non-Eastern wife beaters also use many creative excuses.

There you go again. If you want to talk about non-Eastern wife beaters by all means do so , but somewhere else. You have an irritating habit of muddying the water.

We get problems on a regular basis with girls who do not want to enter forced, as opposed. marriages. Not all the people involved are Muslims; the Hindus are at it as well.There are now safe houses which will take in young Asian girls to protect them from their families.

Whatever their reasons, people who indulge in such barbaric practices have no place in a civilized society. It's a great pity that the Muslim community here does not speak out against them, but they don't

PS The law deals severely with wife beaters of all races and creeds. There are no exceptions.

It's a great pity that the Muslim community here does not speak out against them, but they don't

maybe if you stopped chucking all of us in with those people and listened to us you may hear some stuff

Umm can someone PLEASE tell me what the difference between small minded inderviduals beliving in witches and small minded people in the US (and else where) beliving that demons have to be exorcised?

Please dont tell me this doenst happen because it DOES, here of aproxamatly one case a year where someone was killed in some form of exocium

God Damn man...one case a year? Are you sure it's that chronic? Holy shit...

You've probably just made the greatest point in the history of Sciforums.

They should give you Moderator status. Seriously. '

Yur won shrap inderviduels.

how many cases of witch craft are there in a year?

Yea i thought so

Most if not all Muslims act contrary to their faith, you included. Irrelevant.

And who are you, Mr. Internet Phantom, to tell me that I act contrary to my faith? You don't know a thing about me, so don't piss me off with this nonsense.

Muslims execute witches. Demonstrate where witches run free in a Muslim state, can you?

No, Muslims don't execute witches. A few corrupt monarchs with near-absolute power who act completely against Islam sustain these rules. In this day and age, there aren't too many societies (Muslim or not) that showcase a high prevalence of witches. I will say that in most countries where Muslims make up 98% of the population, like Turkey, you can practice "witchcraft" to your heart's content. Same with the world's leading Muslim population (Indonesia). Same with Syria. etc...

There are dowry deaths in India where such excuses are made ie she was possessed by demons.

The real reasons are almost always far more pragmatic. ie money or ego

I'm sure non-Eastern wife beaters also use many creative excuses.

Are they legal ones? It's legal to beat witches and adulterers in Saudi Arabia, you know. As in: you can beat them and not get arrested. Not much need for creativity, seemingly.

Are they legal ones? It's legal to beat witches and adulterers in Saudi Arabia, you know. As in: you can beat them and not get arrested. Not much need for creativity, seemingly.

The amazing thing about that: I've been with a ton of chicks that made you pay at least double for that kind of action, but in SA, it's perfectly legal, and free, as long as the bitch is a witch or at least weighs the same as a duck.

I would tell you about this fucking crazy chick in Thailand that could lick her own bellybutton, but that would be totally off topic, and I'm just not going to threadjack on Sciforums.

Fuck.

Well, my wife can lick her own nose. That's plenty for me. :D

Fuck.

Well, my wife can lick her own nose. That's plenty for me. :D

Goddammit, that is cool. If I told you I was lying about that Filipino whore with the third nipple, would you lose respect for me?

Typical, when there arent any more valid points to make, just stay stupid stuff... classic

Typical, when there arent any more valid points to make, just stay stupid stuff... classic

Did you expect any better?

Nope, been this way for 6-7 years now. Am used to it

No, Muslims don't execute witches. A few corrupt monarchs with near-absolute power who act completely against Islam sustain these rules. In this day and age, there aren't too many societies (Muslim or not) that showcase a high prevalence of witches. I will say that in most countries where Muslims make up 98% of the population, like Turkey, you can practice "witchcraft" to your heart's content. Same with the world's leading Muslim population (Indonesia). Same with Syria. etc...

Fair enough.

But has there been an outcry in the Muslim community around the world at the possible execution of this poor woman? Have Muslims around the world demanded that such draconian and ridiculous laws be abolished? I understand those in Saudi Arabia may not be a safe position to demand change, but could they possibly get support from Muslims around the world?

The West should simply boycott the ruler of Saudi Arabia, their laws and human rights abuses go beyond what any human being could accept. I think if maybe there was a push from Muslim communities first, it might just shame the West into doing the right thing and stopping their tacit support of the despot.

You don't have to go to Saudi to find believers in jinns. I mentioned elsewhere that two you Muslim girls were beaten to death here in the UK because it was believed they were possessed by jinns
It's not just in Islam. People are stupid everywhere.

The Catholic Church in Queensland (Australia) has admitted that the number of exorcisms they now perform has increased dramatically.

One priest, who asked not to be named for fear of "reprisals", said he was carrying out at least one exorcism a fortnight.

--------------------------------------------------

"Being possessed by a demon is terrifying in one's mental and emotional life," he said. "Some of these manifestations are extremely powerful, causing people to be plagued by disturbances. They hear voices and see hideous creatures in their sleep.

--------------------------------------------------

Father Gabriele Amorth, 82, the Pope's Exorcist-in-Chief, announced the initiative recently amid church concerns about an increase in people dabbling in the occult. Under plans being considered, each bishop would have a group of priests in his diocese who were specially trained in exorcism.

Father Amorth said: "Too many bishops are not taking this seriously and are not delegating their priests in the fight against the devil. You have to hunt high and low for a proper, trained exorcist."
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23223768-3102,00.html


The lets not forget the poor nun who heard voices and was later found nailed to the wall by a priest during an exorcism (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,15667323-601,00.html). Even Maoris have been known to try to drive out the devil. One poor girl had her eyes gouged out and her cousin ended up dying as a result of injuries sustained during an exorcism. (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22821964-5013016,00.html)

Lets face it, superstition and idiocy exists everywhere. The thing that the community at large needs to do is to charge those who cause harm to obviously mentally ill people under the guise of religion. Mental illness has, in the past, often been deemed to be demonic possession. But then we actually learned enough to realise that the voices people heard in their heads was caused by a mental disease which deserves treatment, not holy water, the sacrament and "Be gooonnneee DEEVVIIIIILLLLLLLLL". I guess many are still in the dark ages and haven't realised that yet.

But has there been an outcry in the Muslim community around the world at the possible execution of this poor woman? Have Muslims around the world demanded that such draconian and ridiculous laws be abolished? I understand those in Saudi Arabia may not be a safe position to demand change, but could they possibly get support from Muslims around the world?

Well, first off, most Muslim nations nowadays have enough trouble dealing with their own countries, let alone criticizing the kingpin of oil in the world. Second, I agree that they should voice their opinions, but it truly is none of their business. If anything is going to change, it has to start from the inside - as in, the Saudis have to do something themselves. Believe me on this one.

Well, first off, most Muslim nations nowadays have enough trouble dealing with their own countries, let alone criticizing the kingpin of oil in the world. Second, I agree that they should voice their opinions, but it truly is none of their business. If anything is going to change, it has to start from the inside - as in, the Saudis have to do something themselves. Believe me on this one.

That's why I asked if the Saudis could count on support from other Muslims around the world if they did decide to try to change the system.

Because at present, it looks like they are floundering. I mean lets face it, they are not in a safe position to speak out, as doing so will most probably result in death or imprisonment. But if they knew they had some outside support, aside from human rights organisations that is, they might just have the courage to do something.

That's why I asked if the Saudis could count on support from other Muslims around the world if they did decide to try to change the system.

Because at present, it looks like they are floundering. I mean lets face it, they are not in a safe position to speak out, as doing so will most probably result in death or imprisonment. But if they knew they had some outside support, aside from human rights organisations that is, they might just have the courage to do something.

Nah, the Saudis are happy with their system. Sam explained this pretty well to me over a PM. People think that the Saudis feel oppressed, but that couldn't be further from the truth. If they wanted to reform the nation, they could. No matter how harsh rules are against uprisal, enough people fighting for the same cause will win.

maybe if you stopped chucking all of us in with those people and listened to us you may hear some stuffI do not class all people of the muslim faith but I do view all with suspicion now. Its inevitable.

maybe if you stopped chucking all of us in with those people and listened to us you may hear some stuff

Community leaders have every opportunity to air their views. Why don't they do so ? They get listened to on a lot of other topics. I take it you have heard of the MUslim Council of Britain.

Fair enough.

But has there been an outcry in the Muslim community around the world at the possible execution of this poor woman? Have Muslims around the world demanded that such draconian and ridiculous laws be abolished? I understand those in Saudi Arabia may not be a safe position to demand change, but could they possibly get support from Muslims around the world?

The West should simply boycott the ruler of Saudi Arabia, their laws and human rights abuses go beyond what any human being could accept. I think if maybe there was a push from Muslim communities first, it might just shame the West into doing the right thing and stopping their tacit support of the despot.



It's not just in Islam. People are stupid everywhere.

The Catholic Church in Queensland (Australia) has admitted that the number of exorcisms they now perform has increased dramatically.



The lets not forget the poor nun who heard voices and was later found nailed to the wall by a priest during an exorcism (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,15667323-601,00.html). Even Maoris have been known to try to drive out the devil. One poor girl had her eyes gouged out and her cousin ended up dying as a result of injuries sustained during an exorcism. (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22821964-5013016,00.html)

Lets face it, superstition and idiocy exists everywhere. The thing that the community at large needs to do is to charge those who cause harm to obviously mentally ill people under the guise of religion. Mental illness has, in the past, often been deemed to be demonic possession. But then we actually learned enough to realise that the voices people heard in their heads was caused by a mental disease which deserves treatment, not holy water, the sacrament and "Be gooonnneee DEEVVIIIIILLLLLLLLL". I guess many are still in the dark ages and haven't realised that yet.

I agree. There are some very stupid, superstitious people all over and I have no time for any of them. Given half a chance they would drag us back into the Dark Ages

You are unlikely to see any form of sanctions or crticizm of Saudi, They have oil and they spend billions on arms. Money talks.

The Muslim Council of Britain, (the next Government!!) - actually is very embarrassed by all the politically correct pro muslim ideology being thrown at us by - the white left wing scared of ethnic's community. When that idiot in Canterbury recently asked for Sharia (sp) law to be introduced into the UK, the idiot caused more harm than good. The Muslim community in the UK do NOT WANT this and never will. He is an idiot and out of touch with reality and should be replaced. The aim of the Muslim Council is to promote an equitable life amongst both sets of communities. Their cause is damaged every time some other stupid law gets passed and there is a massive underswell of anti islamic feeling growing in the country as a consequence.

The Muslim Council of Britain, (the next Government!!) - actually is very embarrassed by all the politically correct pro muslim ideology being thrown at us by - the white left wing scared of ethnic's community. When that idiot in Canterbury recently asked for Sharia (sp) law to be introduced into the UK, the idiot caused more harm than good. The Muslim community in the UK do NOT WANT this and never will. He is an idiot and out of touch with reality and should be replaced. The aim of the Muslim Council is to promote an equitable life amongst both sets of communities. Their cause is damaged every time some other stupid law gets passed and there is a massive underswell of anti islamic feeling growing in the country as a consequence.

I know exactly where you are coming from and you are right. I still feel, however, that I would do us all a bit of good if a few clerics were to speak out against what we all regard as reprehensible behaviour.

I have yet to hear any criticism expressed by leading Catholics against child abuse by the clergy. That's religion all over. Sad

Myles, I completely agree - no both counts. My relationship with the Catholic Church was marred forever by their refusal to intervene in my fathers brutality - of me. Not abuse, just beatings and they knew. When I threw him out they were the first knocking on the door DEMANDING I allow him back in. Needless to say my reply was unprintable.

Myles, I completely agree - no both counts. My relationship with the Catholic Church was marred forever by their refusal to intervene in my fathers brutality - of me. Not abuse, just beatings and they knew. When I threw him out they were the first knocking on the door DEMANDING I allow him back in. Needless to say my reply was unprintable.

Have you any idea what it was like when I lived in that well known theocracy, Holy Ireland, when I was a kid ? Boy was I glad to get out.

I was there too, in the 70s and later the late 80s, Long Kesh, Omagh & Belfast, lovely people lousy religions!! ;)

I was there too, in the 70s and later the late 80s, Long Kesh, Omagh & Belfast, lovely people lousy religions!! ;)

I was in the South. 1932-1954. You dont kmow what you missed

Typical, when there arent any more valid points to make, just stay stupid stuff... classic

Well, when valid point after point gets distorted or willfully ignored, what's there left to say?

I was in the South. 1932-1954. You dont kmow what you missed

My grandparents on mums side came from "south".

Well, when valid point after point gets distorted or willfully ignored, what's there left to say?

Can I suggest There's None So Blind As Those Who Won't See

Precisely. Cognitive dissonance is a good one too. Was that Jung? Or was he too Jung?

Precisely. Cognitive dissonance is a good one too. Was that Jung? Or was he too Jung?

You have a most irritating habit of confusing people. Keep your facts to yourself. They are totally irrelevant to the present discussion.

Community leaders have every opportunity to air their views. Why don't they do so ? They get listened to on a lot of other topics. I take it you have heard of the MUslim Council of Britain.[/quote]
I have, but I take it you have missed every condemnation issued by the MCB then?
Well, when valid point after point gets distorted or willfully ignored, what's there left to say?
No valid point has not been refuted already or ignored. In fact, it is the anti-Islamists who ignore half, if not all of our posts.

You have a most irritating habit of confusing people. Keep your facts to yourself. They are totally irrelevant to the present discussion.

Quite. Discussion and argument is certainly marred by the presentation of facts. Let us have a moratorium on them, and on lateral thought also.


No valid point has not been refuted already or ignored. In fact, it is the anti-Islamists who ignore half, if not all of our posts.

Who are these anti-Islamists?

Best,

Geoff

Where were all you anti-muslim racist idiots back when the Muslim extremist wackjobs were Americas allies fight the Soviets in Afghanistan?

Back then neo-fascist Saddam Hussein was Americas's ally. European employers wanted cheap labor and did not care if the cheap labor was Muslim.

Earlier Israel was helping Hamas grow because Israel thought Muslim extremists would be a counterbalance to the leftist-Pan Arab nationalists PLO.

It is so easy to get human monkys worked into anti-other hysterias. It is much harder to get them to drop their racist hysterias when it no longer serves the masters interests.

Fools! Yah, the Islamic extremists are crude idiots, but why are you anti-muslim people interested in the stupid stuff Muslims do?

Have they killed her yet? :(

Where were all you anti-muslim racist idiots back when the Muslim extremist wackjobs were Americas allies fight the Soviets in Afghanistan?Thank you! The USA and the USSR used the Middle East as our private chessboard for fifty years. Jimmy Carter decided that the best way to counter the Russians' attempt to get a foothold in Afghanistan was to enlist those "Muslim extremist wackjobs" on our side and give them guns, money, and CIA training. It never occurred to him that letting a group like that run loose around the Middle East was a really stupid idea.Back then neo-fascist Saddam Hussein was Americas's ally.Iran was our enemy so if Saddam wanted to fight them, he was our friend. Another really stupid idea.Earlier Israel was helping Hamas grow because Israel thought Muslim extremists would be a counterbalance to the leftist-Pan Arab nationalists PLO.I've never heard that one but it's plausible. Another really stupid idea.

Have they killed her yet? :(Which?






;)

Accused sorceror gives birth in tree

A PREGNANT woman in Papua New Guinea who was hung from a tree after being accused of sorcery gave birth to her baby while struggling to free herself.

Nolan Yekum and her husband Paul were dragged from their house and hung from a tree by fellow tribesmen who accused them of sorcery after the couple's neighbour suddenly died.

Their ordeal occurred in Kilip village near Banz in Western Highlands Province, PNG's newspaper The National reported today.

The woman and her baby girl, her third child, were doing well in Mt Hagen Hospital after two weeks in hiding, the report said.

Her husband said men entered their house in the middle of the night with a rope and tied it round their necks, accusing them of sorcery over their neighbour's death.

They were dragged outside and hung from a tree, he said.

"We managed to loosen the noose to get our feet on the ground ... we were able to free ourselves.

"My wife, who was about seven months pregnant, delivered the baby while struggling to free herself.

"It was a painful experience for me and her," Mr Yekum said.

He said he pleaded with villagers to wait for his neighbour's post-mortem examination and he accused local police of failing to act.

The couple denied practising sorcery.

Viewed 26/02/08 at 12:00 (http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23277922-5006301,00.html)

I guess its not only muslims that fall for this

Where were all you anti-muslim racist idiots back when the Muslim extremist wackjobs were Americas allies fight the Soviets in Afghanistan?

What race is islam, pray tell? No one seems able to answer this question.

Me, I was in public school.

Fools! Yah, the Islamic extremists are crude idiots, but why are you anti-muslim people interested in the stupid stuff Muslims do?

Yah, da problem is dat a significant minority wants to get da sharia and dhimmitude and anti-mockery laws over here, donchaknow. Dere's some as tinks it sposed ta spread, uh-huh, uh-huh, donchaknow, until it's da "only accepted religion on earth". Me, I'm all for people bein' whatever, but I'm not supportin' anyone that wants only one accepted religion. Looks...kinda wierd, dat.

Yep. Kinda wierd-lookin'.

Yah, da problem is dat a significant minority wants to get da sharia and dhimmitude and anti-mockery laws over here, donchaknow. Dere's some as tinks it sposed ta spread, uh-huh, uh-huh, donchaknow, until it's da "only accepted religion on earth". Me, I'm all for people bein' whatever, but I'm not supportin' anyone that wants only one accepted religion. Looks...kinda wierd, dat.

Yep. Kinda wierd-lookin'.

That just goes to show you dont know what Sharia is. You are implying that everything we see in Saudiland is Sharia law. Which it isnt.

No, I'm implying that the general experience of religious law dar-al-islam-wide is frequently wrongful and oppressive. Saudiland is just the more extreme end of the distribution. Or, identify a single islamic country in which it's legal to convert from islam.

So, how many witches executed today?

What, me? I got three at least.

What race is islam, pray tell? No one seems able to answer this question. Your right, racist is the wrong word; but usually racists, xenophobes, and bigots are the same people.




Yah, da problem is dat a significant minority wants to get da sharia and dhimmitude and anti-mockery laws over here, donchaknow. Dere's some as tinks it sposed ta spread, uh-huh, uh-huh, donchaknow, until it's da "only accepted religion on earth". Me, I'm all for people bein' whatever, but I'm not supportin' anyone that wants only one accepted religion. Looks...kinda wierd, dat.

Yep. Kinda wierd-lookin'.

It's none of my countries business what they do in their countries unless we want to meddle on humanitarian grounds. Congo is much more in need of humanitarian meddling than any other nation. It would be better to fix Congo before we worry about the right of women to drive in Saudi Arabia.

But you say your concern is not what they do to each other. You say they want to impose their culture on us. They say we want to impose our culture and foreign policy on them. I have read some of Bin Laden's writing and saw nothing about him wanting to impose his culture on non-Muslims. The Muslim extremist want "purify" the Islamic World. The Sunni Extremists would first, Talibanize the Suni world (almost impossible), then the Shiite world (could never happen) and only after those to tasks are accomplished would the Muslim extremists try to impose Sharia in nations that are not even 25% Muslim.

There are some Muslim proselytizers out there but proselytizers are more common in modern Christianity than modern Islam. I have never heard of any Islamic extremist who thought that the West could forced to adopt Sharia.

This whole "they hate our freedom", "we have to fight them there or we will have to fight them here" Is just plain a lie. We have to fight them their if we want to run their world. If we don't screw with them, they won't screw with us. That is the truth or very close to the truth.


I have been away from Sciforums for a while but I remeber that GeoffP is not an idiot. An Israel supporter yes, but not an idiot. Do you really believe that violent Muslim extremists give a damn what we do in the USA or Australia so long as we don't oppress Muslims or interfere with the internal politics of their nations?

Your right, racist is the wrong word; but usually racists, xenophobes, and bigots are the same people.

Possibly; but there is no evidence in this case to support this conclusion.

It's none of my countries business what they do in their countries unless we want to meddle on humanitarian grounds. Congo is much more in need of humanitarian meddling than any other nation. It would be better to fix Congo before we worry about the right of women to drive in Saudi Arabia.

Yet, I doubt the Congo is interested in expanding their societal and economic chaos to the rest of the world; it is not a deliberate decision they have taken as a perceived benefit to their civilization.

and only after those to tasks are accomplished would the Muslim extremists try to impose Sharia in nations that are not even 25% Muslim.

Why just wait for the attempt to happen?

I have never heard of any Islamic extremist who thought that the West could forced to adopt Sharia.

Then you have not read on the issue very widely.

This whole "they hate our freedom", "we have to fight them there or we will have to fight them here" Is just plain a lie. We have to fight them their if we want to run their world. If we don't screw with them, they won't screw with us. That is the truth or very close to the truth.

Like many things, it is a partial truth; there are indeed many figures in the islamic community that despise us and our culture for what it is, either actively or quietly. I agree that Western governments do interfere in the East; then again, no nation has a benevolent foreign policy, really.

I have been away from Sciforums for a while but I remeber that GeoffP is not an idiot. An Israel supporter yes, but not an idiot. Do you really believe that violent Muslim extremists give a damn what we do in the USA or Australia so long as we don't oppress Muslims or interfere with the internal politics of their nations?

Two words: Jyllands Posten. It is also the question of the rights of non-muslims there without reference specifically to what we do here. And for clarity: I am an Israel supporter in some things, and not in others. I am a Turkish supporter in some things, not in others. The same provisos could be extended to any nation, organization or people on the face of the Earth, or anywhere else for that matter.

Best,

Geoff

So, how many witches executed today?

What's the score so far?

Witch trial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g)

Okay I admit it was probably poor taste.

Seriously, the woman in question probably got involved with a couple of men and their wives found out. Obviously she gets classed a witch for breaking all the rules and the men walk free....

So, how many witches executed today?

I had a big one but she got away. :(

Two words: Jyllands Posten. It is also the question of the rights of non-muslims there without reference specifically to what we do here. And for clarity: I am an Israel supporter in some things, and not in others. I am a Turkish supporter in some things, not in others. The same provisos could be extended to any nation, organization or people on the face of the Earth, or anywhere else for that matter.

Best,

Geoff

I admit that the those Muslims who responded to Jyllands Posten's insults with destruction of property and death threats crossed a line that preserves peace in democratic societies. I admit that many Muslims don't believe in tolerance.

Jyllands Posten' did screw with Muslims, but they did it in a Christian land.

Nobody asked the European majority if they wanted all those Muslim immigrants and nobody asked the American Majority if they wanted all those Mexican immigrants. The politicians just quietly allowed what the employers wanted.

I don't mind anti-immigrant sentiments but I hate it when anti-immigrant sentiment expresses itself as ugly verbal or physical attacks on the culture, religion or race of the immigrants.

Muslims get violent and hysterical more quickly when Mohamed is mocked and criticized than Christians get violent and hysterical when Jesus is mocked and criticized. This is only a matter of degrees. Anybody silly enough to try and provoke Christians in certain parts of America would be risking their life and should probably expect a beating.

I don't believe that there is any reason to fear or hate Muslims. I think the campaign to increase fear and hatred against Muslims is counter productive to what is in the best interest of the future generations of the world and is counterproductive to what is in the best interests of the currently living American people.

So, how many witches executed today? Dod you know the Catholic Church burnt 5 million women at the stake on the pretext that they were witches. And all it was for was to demonstrate male supremacy!!

One of my great great..... grandmothers died in prison while awaiting her trial for witchcraft. In Massachusetts the were killing woman and at least one man because they actually believed that they were witches. Loud unsubmissive women may have fit the witch profile better than meek woman, but that is not why they were killed. People believed in witches, and they were scared.

There were many reasons why the accusers made the accusation of witchcraft against those who were tried for witchcraft. Sometimes the accuser's really believed that the woman they were accusing was a witch. Sometimes it was revenge by neighbors who were not getting along.

So, how many witches executed today?

What gives you the notion anyone would ever hear of it from outside an Islamic state? Now that the proverbial 'cat is out of the bag' as far as an international incident is concerned, I'm sure the religious police will be keeping a tight reign on "public" witch executions in the future.

What gives you the notion anyone would ever hear of it from outside an Islamic state? Now that the proverbial 'cat is out of the bag' as far as an international incident is concerned, I'm sure the religious police will be keeping a tight reign on "public" witch executions in the future.

Ah, so they have secret public executions now, because the aim is to make sure that no one in the kingdom or outside hears about it. Cos it would damage their oh so democratic image abroad and at home. :roflmao:

Ah, so they have secret public executions now, because the aim is to make sure that no one in the kingdom or outside hears about it. Cos it would damage their oh so democratic image abroad and at home. :roflmao:

SAM is right. executions should be made public. we cant let witches walk around free. their more dangerous then gays, or even liberals, not to mention thinking people.

Ah, so they have secret public executions now, because the aim is to make sure that no one in the kingdom or outside hears about it. Cos it would damage their oh so democratic image abroad and at home. :roflmao:

It's interesting that you're making light of this, rolling around the floor laughing.

I suppose you've conveniently forgotten this is YOUR religion we're talking about. You know, the alleged "religion of peace."

Witch burning? You must be very proud.

I suppose now you'll be providing us with propaganda links on how Islam helped build modern civilization.

Keep up the laughter, sam, you'll make believers of us all, yet.

It's interesting that you're making light of this, rolling around the floor laughing.

I suppose you've conveniently forgotten this is YOUR religion we're talking about. You know, the alleged "religion of peace."

Witch burning? You must be very proud.

I suppose now you'll be providing us with propaganda links on how Islam helped build modern civilization.

Keep up the laughter, sam, you'll make believers of us all, yet.

shell make a believer out of you, by force if necessary.

It's interesting that you're making light of this, rolling around the floor laughing.

I suppose you've conveniently forgotten this is YOUR religion we're talking about. You know, the alleged "religion of peace."

Witch burning? You must be very proud.

I suppose now you'll be providing us with propaganda links on how Islam helped build modern civilization.

Keep up the laughter, sam, you'll make believers of us all, yet.

Of course I am laughing, but at the value system that supports holding an entire religion possible for what is clearly a misuse of power by the very few.

Of course I am laughing, but at the value system that supports holding an entire religion possible for what is clearly a misuse of power by the very few.

It's always just "the very few."

Yet, if we add up all the actions of the Islamic "very few" we find there are "very many" and if we continue to add up those Muslims who support the actions, we find there are "all."

Of course I am laughing, but at the value system that supports holding an entire religion possible for what is clearly a misuse of power by the very few.

misuse of few? so how come so many support it?

It's always just "the very few."

Yet, if we add up all the actions of the Islamic "very few" we find there are "very many" and if we continue to add up those Muslims who support the actions, we find there are "all."

Ah so in your view all Muslims in the world secretly support the execution of witches (except the ones who are witches themselves, or do they also hold the same suicidal beleifs in view of the awaiting lush virgins?)

Ah so in your view all Muslims in the world secretly support the execution of witches (except the ones who are witches themselves, or do they also hold the same suicidal beleifs in view of the awaiting lush virgins?)

just like it the holocaust was the jews fault for living separately, its the muslims fault they are hated for the actions of "few".

just like it the holocaust was the jews fault for living separately, its the muslims fault they are hated for the actions of "few".

So in your opinion, the holocaust was justified?:confused:

So in your opinion, the holocaust was justified?:confused:

thats your opinion, not mine.

thats your opinion, not mine.

But you think its alright to paint all Muslims with the aberrations of a few.

But you think its alright to paint all Muslims with the aberrations of a few.

no i justified it using your arguments. in other words, it is what YOU think. i clearly disagree.

no i justified it using your arguments. in other words, it is what YOU think. i clearly disagree.

Then we both agree that its pointless to talk about witch executions while supporting kings and dictators with oppressive regimes.

Then we both agree that its pointless to talk about witch executions while supporting kings and dictators with oppressive regimes.

they said that about iraq. look what happened without saddam, they miss him.

so no, i disagree. dictatorship is default in the ME.

Then we both agree that its pointless to talk about witch executions while supporting kings and dictators with oppressive regimes.

YOU can certainly divert the topic of witch executions in Islamic states because you cannot defend it.

But, WE cannot certainly assume it is pointless. Far from it, my little brainwashed floozie.

YOU can certainly divert the topic of witch executions in Islamic states because you cannot defend it.

But, WE cannot certainly assume it is pointless. Far from it, my little brainwashed floozie.

So start a campaign to stop doing any and all business with Saudi Arabia. Or all Muslims. Or whatever.

im waiting for fusion reactors and electrical cars.

So start a campaign to stop doing any and all business with Saudi Arabia. Or all Muslims. Or whatever.

Or, better yet, stop violence based on religious ideals.

Gee, theres a novel idea. :rolleyes:

Or, better yet, stop violence based on religious ideals.

Gee, theres a novel idea. :rolleyes:

Maybe you could send them some teddy bears in lieu of making a difference.

Maybe you could send them some teddy bears in lieu of making a difference.

they'll probably stuff it with bombs and mail it back.

they'll probably stuff it with bombs and mail it back.

I was thinking more in lines of, hey if it worked for the English schoolteacher, (ignoring the minor details of the unbrainwashed Muslims Lord Ahmed and Baronness Warsi who managed to override the vicious religious beliefs of the brainwashed Muslims), it can certainly work for the Arab witches.

Maybe SAM is actually a witch.

BURN THE WITCH!

"I have erred and strayed like a lost ox... I have coveted my father's adultery... I have not always honoured my neighbours ass." ~~ Grumbleduke

Ah so in your view all Muslims in the world secretly support the execution of witches (except the ones who are witches themselves, or do they also hold the same suicidal beleifs in view of the awaiting lush virgins?)

I certainly don't think so myself; but the political dimension of islam lends itself to this kind of intolerance and even paranoia. I would have much the same criticism of a system in which Christianity lent itself too strongly to politics.

I admit that the those Muslims who responded to Jyllands Posten's insults with destruction of property and death threats crossed a line that preserves peace in democratic societies. I admit that many Muslims don't believe in tolerance.

Well, there is a proportion. There's a proportion of Christians and others that are similar, but they're stymied by the legal and constitutional gymnastics of Western society.

Muslims get violent and hysterical more quickly when Mohamed is mocked and criticized than Christians get violent and hysterical when Jesus is mocked and criticized. This is only a matter of degrees. Anybody silly enough to try and provoke Christians in certain parts of America would be risking their life and should probably expect a beating.

They might well, yes. But there would be no legal protection for such a beating.

I don't believe that there is any reason to fear or hate Muslims. I think the campaign to increase fear and hatred against Muslims is counter productive to what is in the best interest of the future generations of the world and is counterproductive to what is in the best interests of the currently living American people.

I don't want to see people fear and hate anyone either, but I do want people to be aware of the political dialectic that drives some propor