It is that which we seek? Is it that which is why we're here at sciforums? Regardless, let's see what you got. In your infinite reflections, what has been revealed to you?

I'll offer two, feel free to criticize or add your own. Please, feedback is appreciated:

True wisdom comes at the price of knowing you'll never really know anything.

The only route to truth is faith. Faith in what is up to you. I choose reason. Reason is my savior.

Oh, and a bonus:

Jesus can't love you because he's dead. I didn't kill him but I thought you should know.

Rat's head, Ox's neck, in all things.

Do you expect sincerity in man when hypocrisy is the very keynote of human nature?

No, I yearn for it. I believe it can reside in intention.

We are nurtured on it; we are schooled in it, we live by it.

Again, to an extent, but it the intention is pure, the journey is worthy.

; and we rarely realize it.

mostly. few realize I think the fact that they are hypocrites by nature. you are, I am, we is. nature of consciousness I believe.

You have seen it rampant and out of hand in France during the past four years - cant and hypocrisy on the lips of the revolutionaries, cant and hypocrisy on the lips of the upholders of the old regime;

Have not. :) ( I am ingorant of that)

a riot of hypocrisy out of which in the end is begotten chaos.

that's quite a statement.

And I who criticize it all on this beautiful God-given morning am the rankest and most contemptible hypocrite of all.

We are all hypocrites. It can be minimized with earnest intent. Jesus is dead, forgive yourself.

It was this - the realization of this truth kept me awake all night.

Did that to me too for a long time actually. Until I accepted that oh, it's inevitable. I am no innocent. I do have will however, and I can try to not be a hypocrite. I think kind of half the thing is that you know you are one, the other - earnest intent.

Hehe, it could probably be said however, that earnest intent coupled with limited cognitive ability might be worse than a dire intent eh? Hehe, at least in that case the dire intent is aligned with outcome.

Some just can't stop asking questions (like me). I have yet to decide if this classifies as a blessing or curse (another question!)

we all should start "Questioners Anyonymous."
my name is susan and I ask questions.
I feel lonely.

Wisdom is extremely important for clerics. It mainly determines how many spells they can memorize.

*Adam shoots Joeman...*

:p

Is Wisdom the same as knowledge?

No, far from it. Knowledge can be taught. Wisdom can not.

Ah yes, the wise man knows to question. While the fool only knows the question.

"Knowledge can be communicated, but not wisdom. One can find
it, live it, be fortified by it, do wonders through it, but one cannot
communicate and teach it." - Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

You guys are a tough crowd. I suppose you're saying I should have asked "What kind of knowledge can you communicate here that you've gained from your wisdom?". Sheez. You should know what I mean. :)

I'd say that we are acquiring wisdom about online/hyperspace
communication. it is something we are experiencing together,
with strange time delayed and no physical contact.

We must assume the person on the other end of the line is wise. If they aren't there's not much we can do about that. Ie: Muscleman.

I guess if you are wise, you might know it. But you wouldn't declare it.:D You would know better.

so is 'wisdom'
really the search for someone wiser than yourself?
or is it acceptance of yourself as wise?
or is it providing 'wisdom' to someone else?

is it the same as 'enlightenment,' or only a pre-requisite?

moderation and humility, more than modesty

intended nobility or accidental nobility?

wesmorris,

It is that which we seek? Is it that which is why we're here at sciforums? Regardless, let's see what you got. In your infinite reflections, what has been revealed to you?
Wisdom comes from Love.

True wisdom comes at the price of knowing you'll never really know anything.
Not quite. It is true that we know nothing, but it is also true that many of us we know someday. I believe that our minds are extremely limited, but our spirits are unlimited.

The only route to truth is faith. Faith in what is up to you. I choose reason. Reason is my savior.
Not quite. The only route to Truth is God's Faith, which is Love. Remeber that there are many illusions, but there is only one Truth.

Jesus can't love you because he's dead. I didn't kill him but I thought you should know.
He is not dead. He is alive. He is just not physically alive.

moonman
Is Wisdom the same as knowledge?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

notme2000
No, far from it. Knowledge can be taught. Wisdom can not.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

moonman
Ah yes, the wise man knows to question. While the fool only knows the question.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EvilPoet
"Knowledge can be communicated, but not wisdom. One can find
it, live it, be fortified by it, do wonders through it, but one cannot
communicate and teach it." - Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha


I agree. And I add that knowledge comes from experience while wisdom comes from Love... :D

susan,

so is 'wisdom'
really the search for someone wiser than yourself?
or is it acceptance of yourself as wise?
or is it providing 'wisdom' to someone else?

is it the same as 'enlightenment,' or only a pre-requisite?


Providing wisdom for others is one of the things a wise person would do. Eventhough it is better not to give wisdom until someone asks you. However, with the present conditions of this world I would say: "Forget that anyone is asking. Just give it. If they accept, good; if not, too bad, is their's own free will...."

Truthseeker. I like some of what you said because it is poetic and appeals to my emotional side. I do however, think you are the victim of the christianity meme and you attempts at wisdom are horribly tainted as such.

I don't believe in the spirit or soul. I don't think it's impossible either. I wish I knew but would never be so presumptuous (unless new evidence (which I'm sure you cannot provide - and please don't try, I've seen all that theist/christians have to offer) were presented) with some kind of religious/"hey you have a soul because.. blah blah" implications were discovered.

Statements like "The only route to Truth is God's Faith" sicken me to the bone, telling me you've abandoned reason and you a hopeless and scary to me, for we can never truly communicate. You are dead wrong. The only route to a mind virus is God's Faith. The only route to truth is reason. Reason leads to "oh, well, this could be the matrix and I can't know the difference", which lead you to make an assumption "this is real" which leads to an emotional appeal to yourself "I have faith that this is real". Therein lies some truth. It's a pity you can't see it.

Truthseeker,

Wisdom comes from Love.No, wisdom comes from knowledge.

Knowledge is not wisdom, but wisdom depends on knowledge. Love is just one component of emotional knowledge.

Wisdom is the ability to efficiently process knowledge and derive meaning.

wesmorris,

Statements like "The only route to Truth is God's Faith" sicken me to the bone, telling me you've abandoned reason and you a hopeless and scary to me, for we can never truly communicate. You are dead wrong. The only route to a mind virus is God's Faith. The only route to truth is reason. Reason leads to "oh, well, this could be the matrix and I can't know the difference", which lead you to make an assumption "this is real" which leads to an emotional appeal to yourself "I have faith that this is real". Therein lies some truth. It's a pity you can't see it.
Reason leads only to confusion. Reason may lead you to knowledge, but with reason you never reach wisdom. There is absolutly nothing of emotional in any Christian spiritual matters. It is completly different then emotions. Christians never follow their emotions as truth. Atheists can't contro, their emotions. It's the exactly oposite of what you say. You look to the lies of this world and say that they are the Truth. Atheists are iluded by this world. They are created like that since their childhood. Many people that are Christians were actually atheists once. The difference is that they stopped looking for the Truth in the wrong place. They realized that each person see the world in a different way and that the only way to the Truth is through their own hearts.

Cris,

No, wisdom comes from knowledge.
Knowledge and wisdom are nearly oposite things. Knowledge is attained by experience, wisdom is attained by the simple act of loving. If you are wise, will you kill? Will you steal? Will you do any of those sins? I don't think so. As it is said in the Bible, the whole Law is resumed in "love one another".

Knowledge is not wisdom, but wisdom depends on knowledge. Love is just one component of emotional knowledge.
Love is not emotional. Again, you are influenced by this world's idea of Love. This "love" that you talk about is worth almost nothing. This world created this "love" just to confuse people about the True Love.

Wisdom don't depend on knowledge. Wisdom and knowledge are completly different. Knowledge comes from the mind. You have to think, you have to ponder, you have to evolve. Wisdom comes naturaly and easily through loving one another. There is a great secret in this Law, which if you follow you may see the light of the day and night will become history.

Wisdom is the ability to efficiently process knowledge and derive meaning.
Wisdom is naturaly easy understanding.

Matthew 11:25

"25 Then Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike. ""

Then Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike
That's a good way to keep followers of Jesus from questioning Christianity... I wonder what they're afraid you'll find? The truth?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
wesmorris,


Reason leads only to confusion.

That you would say that and mean it is maybe the saddest thing I've ever heard.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

There is absolutly nothing of emotional in any Christian spiritual matters. It is completly different then emotions.

That is simply untrue. I mean, you are lying to yourself. In my opinion you owe it to yourself to stop it.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

Christians never follow their emotions as truth.

You'll never understand. You are a carrier of the mind virus.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

Atheists can't contro, their emotions.

Simply retarded.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

It's the exactly oposite of what you say.

Of course it is. You say so. Gack. Stop it.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

You look to the lies of this world and say that they are the Truth.

HHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh shit. You are a sheep. I do not. I found my own truth through deep thought and analysis. You read the bible a bunch of times. Nice work. Very original analysis. SHEEP.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

Atheists are iluded by this world. They are created like that since their childhood.

I'm an agnostic but I went to church as a child looking for answers. I finally realized that the people there had no answers to give besides well, bullshit. It's a bunch of crap and you buy into it. That makes me think you're stupid, but now I realize you only seem stupid because you have been victimized by a mind virus. I'm sad for you but scared of you because you would spread this virus to someone I care about given the opportunity. I'm scared of you because you are not self-aware enough to realize the depth with which this virus has pulled you in. You are inside a balloon.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

Many people that are Christians were actually atheists once.

Really? What does that have to do with anything. Many people are infected with AIDs.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

The difference is that they stopped looking for the Truth in the wrong place.

You are SO fucking presumptuous to make such an assertion.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

They realized that each person see the world in a different way and that the only way to the Truth is through their own hearts.

And you're claiming that theism/christianity has ANYTHING to do with a subjective perspective. That's uh.. well. What are you talking about? You simply don't make any sense. I wonder why? Oh yeah... you said "Reason leads only to confusion." If that is you assertion you are doomed to ignorance and congnitave failure. In my opinion, however shallow it may be in this regard: You suck.

Truthseeker,

I shouldn't have called you a sheep. I think lemming is much more appropriate.

wisdom comes from knowledge
Wouldn't it be that the starting point of wisdom is the idea, the acceptance of the idea, that what there is to know is infinite and what we do know or understand is, relatively speaking, practically nothing. That we have no knowledge to speak of.

A sort of reckless humility that says to life, "Come on, show me what you've got, show me what this is all about - show me what I'm all about" as opposed to the know-it-all arrogance of borrowed philosophies for shelter, safe paths, but preclude the possibility of acquiring wisdom, if wisdom is ultimately about discovering what we are.

There’s us and then there’s life. Wisdom (to my mind) would be what’s generated in the middle when, if, we open ourselves up fully to life’s possibilities (good and bad), letting life interact with us to the fullest, knocking us about like a piece of clay we can see the changing shape of ourselves, our responses, and come to make more sense of subsequent happenings, and get closer to the truth or the dynamics of life.

I don’t think, then, that knowledge has anything to do with wisdom. What is knowledge, anyway, beyond an accumulation of data? And I somehow can’t imagine truly wise people crediting themselves with “knowing” anything at all. It makes more sense to me that as soon as you think that you do, you’ve shut the door on wisdom.

It would have to be the experiences that matter, and making ourselves available for them. And so obviously all our “wisdoms” would be different, which I suppose is why philosophy will last for as long as there still two people standing.

Anyway, those are my thoughts and they seem to be a bit long for a “quickie” when all I really wanted to say was that I think people who are endlessly regurgitating borrowed thoughts and “realities” really haven’t got a clue. When it comes to wisdom, I’ll go with the one who says he’s clueless every time, because they’re more likely to have dipped their toes in the water, and maybe swum out deep, because they’re chockfull of questions, not answers, whereas the know-it-all never bothered. They “know” it’s cold already, though perhaps it’s not, and they “know” what it’s all about because they read that's how it is.

And I’ll go with this too:

Reason leads only to confusion

It’s forcing square pegs into round holes.

It seems to me that the definition of a word is inferred in typed or written communication. There is the definition of the word but most words mean multiple things. To determine what is being said in a conversation is not that difficult if one is tracking the context in which they are used over their history of knowledge about that person, the direct context of the converstation, any direct stipulations, etc.

I've noticed that most people's posts make sense if you can kind of dynamically alter your definition of what that person is saying based on the context in which it seems that they are saying it. Like "wisdom is found through love" I would hold that this person's definition of wisdom is not the same as mine. It may even make sense in the schema of language that individual has created.

It's interesting as I read amongst the posts that it seems that people in general, won't infer the implication of words based on the context in which they are used. Instead it is used as a point of argument and ends up a great source of frustration. I'm guilty too I suppose, for I think my defintions are right and certainly they are to me. It takes an objective truth (or a data source that becomes objective) such as a dictionary to put everyone on the same sheet of music, but alas, even when we turn to it for clarity, the very constructs of communication like "how can I apply a definition" can still get in the way. It's a sloppy business this "communicating with the other humans" nonsense.

:bugeye: :D

Just some thoughts.

wess-
I believe that evey single person who has shared their thoughts here is neither right or wrong. Because the truth is a whole, and every person in the world fills a part of it. You can only define a word or a concept for your self which has been so elequently stated by some. We have been blessed with an indescribable individuality. YOU are the only one who can define the concept of the self.

TS- You say the truth is within your heart. Yes this I can agree with. But then you move on to impose your Christian truth on the rest of us. If the truth is in our hearts, let us find it where it may be.
You can say, 'here is what I think is truth, look at it and see what you think'
But you should never say 'here is THE truth, and you should believe in it' as religion does.
You may believe in Religion, nothing wrong with that, just make sure that the books truth is your truth, and that your truth came from within, and not from a page.


'The illusion is that you do not know the truth, you are the truth so know yourself'

notme2000,

That's a good way to keep followers of Jesus from questioning Christianity... I wonder what they're afraid you'll find? The truth?

No. "They" are afraid that you will be confused by your own little mind...


wesmorris,

That you would say that and mean it is maybe the saddest thing I've ever heard.
Sad is to see someone so mislead by his own mind...

That is simply untrue. I mean, you are lying to yourself. In my opinion you owe it to yourself to stop it.
You are saying that you know the Bible better than I do...??:bugeye:

You'll never understand. You are a carrier of the mind virus.
It is you the worshiper of the mind.

Simply retarded.
Do I really need to comment that?? That proves it...:eek:

HHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh shit. You are a sheep. I do not. I found my own truth through deep thought and analysis. You read the bible a bunch of times. Nice work. Very original analysis. SHEEP.
Oh really...? And what conclusion do you get with your "deep thought and analysis"?
I'm not basing all that I'm saying in the Bible... The Bible is just the proof of it...

I'm an agnostic but I went to church as a child looking for answers. I finally realized that the people there had no answers to give besides well, bullshit. It's a bunch of crap and you buy into it. That makes me think you're stupid, but now I realize you only seem stupid because you have been victimized by a mind virus. I'm sad for you but scared of you because you would spread this virus to someone I care about given the opportunity. I'm scared of you because you are not self-aware enough to realize the depth with which this virus has pulled you in. You are inside a balloon.
Aah...?? I'm sorry, but I'm not attacking you back. I won't let my emotions dominate me. I don't "buy into it". I don't believe anything, I know it. I know that that is where the Truth is. It took me years to get here. I didn't just go there and accepted that. I seek the Truth and I found where it is. If you can't see it, than I'm sorry. I'm actually pretty scared that you will lead people away from the Truth... Don't be mislead by your mind.

Really? What does that have to do with anything. Many people are infected with AIDs.
They realized the Truth because they realized how pointless it is to try to find it through their minds. Don't you see that your analisis is YOUR analisis? Don't you see that everyone see things in a different way? Don't you see that the mind works through comparison and perception and therefore the "Truth" changes all the time? Why do you think many people say that there is no single "Truth", that we have many "truths"? Because they are seeing it through their minds. You mind is like a filter. The light go into it but what you get is just a little bit of light. It's like looking to the world with sunglasses.

You are SO fucking presumptuous to make such an assertion.
Read above.

And you're claiming that theism/christianity has ANYTHING to do with a subjective perspective.
I'm saying that Christianity tells you not to use your mind as a filter to judge what you perceive. What you perceive is not what is true because it is YOUR own perception, YOUR own judgement. Everyone will see things in a different way. An atheist would simply say: "there are many truths". A Christian would say: "there is only one Truth, but many are the realities that people perceive." That's why the mind leads to confusion, because you perceive many realities.

What are you talking about? You simply don't make any sense. I wonder why?
I make no sense because you are more worried of judging me and proving me wrong then understanding me.

Oh yeah... you said "Reason leads only to confusion." If that is you assertion you are doomed to ignorance and congnitave failure.
I said that because there are many realities but only one Truth. You must see things impartially, without judging what you perceive. Your mind is only limited to your own judgment and perception.

In my opinion, however shallow it may be in this regard: You suck.
IYou are letting your emotions control you again...

From Webster:

Wisdom

1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : KNOWLEDGE b : ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : INSIGHT c : good sense : JUDGMENT d : generally accepted belief *challenges what has become accepted wisdom among many historians Robert Darnton*.

2 : a wise attitude or course of action.

3 : the teachings of the ancient wise men.

Here we see that Wisdom comprises an accumulation of ‘learnt’ knowledge and the ability to see beyond the surface plus the ability to weigh, balance, and judge.

Love.

1 a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties *maternal love for a child* (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests *love for his old schoolmates* b : an assurance of love *give her my love*.

2 : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion *love of the sea*.

3 a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration *baseball was his first love* b (1) : a beloved person : DARLING often used as a term of endearment (2) British used as an informal term of address.

4 a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others b : a person's adoration of God.

5 : a god or personification of love.

6 : an amorous episode : LOVE AFFAIR.

7 : the sexual embrace : COPULATION.

1 through 4 are all descriptions of emotion. 5 is merely an unexplained assertion. 6 and 7 we can ignore for this discussion.

Conclusion.

As I said wisdom is dependent on knowledge and the ability to use such knowledge effectively.

Truthseeker’s definition appears to have been derived entirely from his own personal agenda and imagination.

wesmorris,

It seems to me that the definition of a word is inferred in typed or written communication. There is the definition of the word but most words mean multiple things. To determine what is being said in a conversation is not that difficult if one is tracking the context in which they are used over their history of knowledge about that person, the direct context of the converstation, any direct stipulations, etc.
As I said in my post above, we perceive things with our minds and we use our own experiences to understand it. I'm sorry, but I already tried to use my mind to track the context and the history of the person and it is still not accurate. We need to try to understand it not through our minds. Since we perceive things and judge them with our own experiences we need to look at things without using those experiences and our own definitions.

I've noticed that most people's posts make sense if you can kind of dynamically alter your definition of what that person is saying based on the context in which it seems that they are saying it. Like "wisdom is found through love" I would hold that this person's definition of wisdom is not the same as mine. It may even make sense in the schema of language that individual has created.
It is true. My definition is not the same as yours. I see wisdom as something that can actually be applied in life. Quantum Physics, for example, would be bullshit for me since this doesn't add to my life in any way. Love would be the ultimate, since it helps me to have harmonic relationship with those around me. :)

It's interesting as I read amongst the posts that it seems that people in general, won't infer the implication of words based on the context in which they are used. Instead it is used as a point of argument and ends up a great source of frustration. I'm guilty too I suppose, for I think my defintions are right and certainly they are to me. It takes an objective truth (or a data source that becomes objective) such as a dictionary to put everyone on the same sheet of music, but alas, even when we turn to it for clarity, the very constructs of communication like "how can I apply a definition" can still get in the way. It's a sloppy business this "communicating with the other humans" nonsense.
I'm guilty too. I try not to analise things with my own understanding too. It is not that easy. I've never found the Truth. I probably still have long ways to go. But what I've been trying to tell you is that you cannot judge me by my words, since my definitions are different then yours. This post clearly shows that you changed from the last one...

Dictionary doesn't work. We all have different definitions. They are all based in our past experiences. For more about that, read the thread:"The Meaninglessness of Conversation and The Puzzle of Life" (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14350)

Happy New Year :)

moonman,

I believe that evey single person who has shared their thoughts here is neither right or wrong. Because the truth is a whole, and every person in the world fills a part of it. You can only define a word or a concept for your self which has been so elequently stated by some. We have been blessed with an indescribable individuality. YOU are the only one who can define the concept of the self.
Have you been reading my writtings or did you know that by yourself? :)
Yeah... I've been trying to pass this message through for a long time...

You say the truth is within your heart. Yes this I can agree with. But then you move on to impose your Christian truth on the rest of us. If the truth is in our hearts, let us find it where it may be.
Of course!! :) But what I'm saying is that you should find it in your heart. That's all that I'm trying to say. You see, I cannot see through your eyes. You need to find it yourself. What I'm just saying is that many people try to look for it in their minds and finish influenced by their own perceptions, definitions and past experiences.

I'm not trying to impose any Christian stuff. Sometimes I quote the Bible, but that is because there is great wisdom in that book. What the Bible talks about is exactly that: look for the Truth within you heart. If you understand that and do that, all things can potentially be understood. You just need to look it in the right way. You need to be very impartial with the Truth you will find. I haven't been impartial, so I've been having difficulty on seeing things clearly lately. But what I know for sure is: find Truth in your heart.

But you should never say 'here is THE truth, and you should believe in it' as religion does.
I don't. But people look at me and say: "he is a Christian. Oh no... he will start doing this and doing that. I must not listen to him. All that he says is bullshit..." and so on. "You" (I'm talking about people in general) use your past experiences to judge me and this is what you perceive. You don't really see what I'm saying, you look into your own experience that you have with most Christians. That's why I've been saying that you cannot follow your mind, you cannot follow your own perception. I believe wesmorris has some wisdom. I believe that some of what he says is true (all in the last post though). But in the other post, when he let some of his emotion get too loud, he called me sheep, or whatever. Just don't use your own understanding and you may find the Truth... someday... :)

You may believe in Religion, nothing wrong with that, just make sure that the books truth is your truth, and that your truth came from within, and not from a page.
Yes, it came from within. And I'm also impresed that the same Truth I found within myself have been written centuries ago in the Bible.

Happy New Year :)

Cris,

You completly ignored moonman and wesmorris posts...
Read them, and read mine's...

Originaly posted by TruthSeeker
It is true. My definition is not the same as yours. I see wisdom as something that can actually be applied in life. Quantum Physics, for example, would be bullshit for me since this doesn't add to my life in any way. Love would be the ultimate, since it helps me to have harmonic relationship with those around me.

Truthseeker

Quantum Physics, for example, would be bullshit for me since this doesn't add to my life in any way.

I find that those who discredit and reject science and its accomplishments are too ignorant to understand the implications of where they would be today without science.

If you truly feel that it is bullshit, then please disconnect your computer from the internet and destroy it immediately. That way, you'll be certain your life has not been tainted by science.

(Q),

I'm not discrediting science. I even enjoy study it, it is interesting. But since it doesn't add in my life, I don't concentrate in it. I prefer to draw my attention to things that I can use in my everyday life.

Truthseeker

But since it doesn't add in my life, I don't concentrate in it. I prefer to draw my attention to things that I can use in my everyday life.

Ignorance is bliss. :rolleyes:

Oh really? Do you thnink I don't know Quantum Physics? I do know it. But why would I keep thinking of it? How does that do me any good? This is not ignorance, this is wisdom. What do you do with something that you don't need? Use it? Life is too short to lose time with things that are irrelevant to life itself.

truthseeker,

You completly ignored moonman and wesmorris posts...
Read them, and read mine's... No I didn't ignore them and I did read them before I posted.

To effectively communicate with others especially where complex issues and ideas are involved it is essential that the same word definitions are shared by all. If this is not achieved then communication does not take place.

While dictionary definitions at times are sometimes not as precise as one would like they do represent an authoritative first stage. But any perceived discrepancies should be explained rather than be simply ignored or assumed incorrect. The worst thing is to create your own definitions, as you do frequently, and then wonder why no one else shares your views.

My post indicates that my perceptions of wisdom and love are strongly supported by a recognized authoritative dictionary whereas yours falls short. The others were offering compromises and adaptations. You have also chosen to ignore the dictionary, because, as you state, everyone has his or her own definitions. I hope you now see why you fail to communicate with others. You are not free to create your own definitions and assume you have a correct view or that anyone else will understand you.

You also reference the “meaningless of conversation”. This again emphasizes your desire to create your own interpretations instead of accepting those devised and evaluated by others who have considered word meanings in far greater depth than yourself. It is arrogant to assume that your views are correct and everyone else is wrong.

You also appeal to using the ‘heart’. This again reflects your highly emotional personality. An appeal to the ‘heart’ is nothing less than believing what you feel is right rather than what is actually right or the truth. The truth often doesn’t feel right, and the truth is often harsh and unpleasant. Deal with it and stop trying to create your own fantasy alternative realities.

Truthseeker

Do you thnink I don't know Quantum Physics? I do know it.

hehe - you've shown your able, somewhat badly I might add, to parrot others without understanding what it is your parroting. Aside from that, you know very little of reality.

Good post Cris!

Yeah, I'm in between myself. I get a little too emotional about this whole deal from time to time and get a little asslike with my posts. I do think that Cris and I are basically saying the same thing, it's just that Cris is doing it without being a dick. Thanks Cris. :)

It's very rare I see Cris make a post without everyone else giving him praise. With good reason.

Guys,

I'm going to stop posting if you keep saying things like that. I'm just a student of life and a dwarf in the field of philosophy.

Jeez Cris, learn to take a freakin compliment. I realize it's just not right in a debate forum, but you are often elegant and succinct. It isn't an ass kissing session, it's recognition of clarity. Sheez bro.

Someone as old as you are is never a 'dwarf' in philosophy...IMHO...

Ahh such wisdom. Thank you wes sensei. :cool:

Cris,

To effectively communicate with others especially where complex issues and ideas are involved it is essential that the same word definitions are shared by all. If this is not achieved then communication does not take place.
That's impossible since we all have different definitions based on our perceptions and past experiences. That's why I say it is pointless to discuss rationally...

While dictionary definitions at times are sometimes not as precise as one would like they do represent an authoritative first stage. But any perceived discrepancies should be explained rather than be simply ignored or assumed incorrect. The worst thing is to create your own definitions, as you do frequently, and then wonder why no one else shares your views.
Cris, YOU yourself have your own definitions. You think that your definitions are exactly like the dictionary's, but it's not. If I say "family" for example, if you had/have a good family, then you will feel happy and see it as something good. If you had/have a bad family, then you can feel sadness, fear, hurt, hate, and you won't have a very good perception of it.

Your experiece with love, wisdom and knowledge unconsciently defines it inside your mind. That's how your mind works. It uses past experiences, perceptions and definitions to understand the world. It is like the way we see space and time. Space and time are not definite. There is no "1km", there is no "1 hour", this is just our own sytem of measure. Space and time cannot be measured, but as our mind needs something basic to rely and compare things, then we need those systems of measure. But nature itself has no system of measure, no fixed definition, nature is pretty flexible.

My post indicates that my perceptions of wisdom and love are strongly supported by a recognized authoritative dictionary whereas yours falls short. The others were offering compromises and adaptations. You have also chosen to ignore the dictionary, because, as you state, everyone has his or her own definitions. I hope you now see why you fail to communicate with others. You are not free to create your own definitions and assume you have a correct view or that anyone else will understand you.
Again, the mind needs a basic to compare. We use dictionary. It is NOT accurate. It is impossible not to have your own definitions. If you think yourself (or your words) better then others simply because they are written in a dictionary then you are no better then this world. And this world is a really mess nowdays...

You also reference the ?eaningless of conversation? This again emphasizes your desire to create your own interpretations instead of accepting those devised and evaluated by others who have considered word meanings in far greater depth than yourself. It is arrogant to assume that your views are correct and everyone else is wrong.
It is arrogant to assume that I'm arrogant when I'm clearly stating that I'm no better then anyone else and you are saying the exact opposite about yourself.

You also appeal to using the ?eart? This again reflects your highly emotional personality. An appeal to the ?eart?is nothing less than believing what you feel is right rather than what is actually right or the truth. The truth often doesn? feel right, and the truth is often harsh and unpleasant. Deal with it and stop trying to create your own fantasy alternative realities.
Heart as nothing to do with emotions. Again, you seem to have no idea of what I'm talking about. It is not just feeling, it is knowing. It is natural knowledge. An awesome example of it is mother with kids. The little baby starts to cry and the mother knows exactly what the baby needs. That's a good example of how to use your heart. It is not directly connected to emotions though.

Experience has absolutly no connection with wisdom.

Truthseeker

An awesome example of it is mother with kids. The little baby starts to cry and the mother knows exactly what the baby needs.

Do you actually ever read what you post ? I mean, its pretty obvious you make this stuff up as you go along, but do you ever stop for a moment and place yourself in a third party position and objectively read your own posts ?

You'll say anything, no matter how ridiculous.

:confused:

You are correct that technically everyone has individual perspectives on words. No two people share the same mind, thusly no one has the same exact definition of any word.

Your HUMONGOUS ERROR is to assume that since that is true, it makes attempts at rational discussion completely devoid of value. That is simply not true, if it were, why are you here? I realize you likely have an infinite number of jesus answers to tell me why you're here but: This is a philosophy/science place where people explore ideas. You are here to explore them irrationally but you are still here to explore apparently? The very act of attempting to communicate YOUR ideas regarding anything I've read that you've typed is indeed an attempt at rationalization of your own belief system. So much so that you insist it superior to all others (implicitely). So then, how do you justify your own attempts at debate? You are wasting your time having conversations you deem pointless. Why do you bother? Isn't it right for you to just sit and pray or something?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Experience has absolutly no connection with wisdom.

There is a connection, but a somewhat weak one. IT is there nonetheless. Lots of experience will help you see some of the loopholes and the exceptions to the rules of life. That would count as a part of wisdom.

(Q),

Do you actually ever read what you post ? I mean, its pretty obvious you make this stuff up as you go along, but do you ever stop for a moment and place yourself in a third party position and objectively read your own posts ?
All the time.


wesmorris,

Your HUMONGOUS ERROR is to assume that since that is true, it makes attempts at rational discussion completely devoid of value. That is simply not true, if it were, why are you here? I realize you likely have an infinite number of jesus answers to tell me why you're here but: This is a philosophy/science place where people explore ideas. You are here to explore them irrationally but you are still here to explore apparently? The very act of attempting to communicate YOUR ideas regarding anything I've read that you've typed is indeed an attempt at rationalization of your own belief system. So much so that you insist it superior to all others (implicitely). So then, how do you justify your own attempts at debate? You are wasting your time having conversations you deem pointless. Why do you bother? Isn't it right for you to just sit and pray or something?
The best solution would certainly be to pray. However, I'm not very patient... that's the hardest thing I have to deal with. It is somewhat pointless to debate, however I try to help people by making them conscient of how limited our minds are to ourselves. When people realize those limits of our minds they start to be more careful and they hopefully judge less the world with their minds. It is quite pointless since all that you perceive you judge using your own standarts. You gain depth when you try to transcend your mind. I care about people and I do my best to show this to them.


Zero,

There is a connection, but a somewhat weak one. IT is there nonetheless. Lots of experience will help you see some of the loopholes and the exceptions to the rules of life. That would count as a part of wisdom.
Maybe. It is quite hard to agree since experiences are past experiences and past experiences most of the time distort what you see.

T,

That's impossible since we all have different definitions based on our perceptions and past experiences. That's why I say it is pointless to discuss rationally...We may be disagreeing only in matters of degree here but I am not so sure. The primary method of communication between people is via language. A language involves words and a set of rules on how to string the words together to form ideas. For language to be an effective form of communication, which it is in most cases, both parties must share the same knowledge concerning both the rules and the meanings of individual words.

If we each had different meanings for the same words then the language would be useless and effective communication would never take place. And since language has proved itself to be extremely effective in communication then, ergo, your claim that we all have different definitions for the same words is blatantly false.

What I think, and hope, you really mean is that many of us, while sharing a basic understanding of the same words place perhaps a difference emphasis or bias on certain words that can change their meanings in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways. The real value of debates such as this, especially where issues of concepts are involved, is that we can share and discuss the variations in meanings of words and hopefully reach a consensus on how to accurately interpret the words and their implications.

Would you agree?

My objection to your particular approach is that you have a tendency to use radically different and very personal interpretations of words and concepts that are too different to the usually accepted basic understandings, and hence why we disagree so much.

You think that your definitions are exactly like the dictionary's, but it's not. If I say "family" for example, if you had/have a good family, then you will feel happy and see it as something good. If you had/have a bad family, then you can feel sadness, fear, hurt, hate, and you won't have a very good perception of it.The issue you are raising here is a question of subjectivity, objectivity, and precision. I work in a research environment where objectivity and precision are paramount, and that I hope is my typical approach in these types of discussion as well. I suggest that the problem here is that you always use your own personal subjective interpretation of certain words and concepts and this is supported by your claimed distaste earlier of using a dictionary.

Your experiece with love, wisdom and knowledge unconsciently defines it inside your mind. That's how your mind works. It uses past experiences, perceptions and definitions to understand the world. And tempered with decades of real world experience and the value of working in the world of science and technology where objectivity and precision have taught me how to discover truth and accuracy in all things I attempt.

If you think yourself (or your words) better then others simply because they are written in a dictionary then you are no better then this world. And this world is a really mess nowdays...It is not an issue of better it is a matter of precision, accuracy and truth. The dictionary is a first stage and then we can explore possible differences based on real world observations.

As for this world being a mess then that is again a purely subjective opinion based on a limited perspective. Compared to the past when diseases were an overwhelming concern and where maximum life expectancy was only in the 30s, and wars were a common experience for most then the world today is a fabulous paradise.

It is arrogant to assume that I'm arrogant when I'm clearly stating that I'm no better then anyone else and you are saying the exact opposite about yourself. No, you only think you are no different to everyone else because you are falsely assuming everyone makes judgments based on subjectivity like yourself.

Heart as nothing to do with emotions.From Webster: Heart –

4 : the emotional or moral as distinguished from the intellectual nature.
5 : one's innermost character, feelings, or inclinations.

You are incorrect again. And it has been typical for millennia and in nearly all literature than when someone talks about using one’s heart, outside of a medical context, then they are specifically speaking about emotions and feelings. If you meant something else then select a word that is more precise and appropriate.

Again, you seem to have no idea of what I'm talking about. Then use words that are more appropriate that we both share. I suggest you start by using a dictionary when you compose your essays.

It is not just feeling, it is knowing.The dictionary and most world literature disagrees with you. Knowing is a matter of the mind not the heart.

It is natural knowledge. You’ve done it again; you’ve created a term of your own and are hoping that we will understand what you mean. Search the web; the term ‘natural knowledge’ has been used by many and in different contexts to mean a wide variety of issues.

An awesome example of it is mother with kids. The little baby starts to cry and the mother knows exactly what the baby needs. That's a good example of how to use your heart. It is not directly connected to emotions though. This is largely an example of an evolutionary inherited trait that does in fact invoke an emotional response of compassion and love in which case you are correct as it is a matter of the heart as well.

Truthseeker,

I suggest you've sabotaged your mind for religion. To me, you've completely betrayed yourself for your mind is your one true gift.

If you fail to standardize the definitions of words in your mind, your are most correct that your attempts at reason will only lead to confusion.

truthseeker,

Experience has absolutely no connection with wisdom.I am quite sure that most people who have lived in the real world know that the greatest wisdom comes from direct experience. I don’t believe anyone would dispute this.

Did you really intend to state what you did, or did you have something else in mind?

Cris,

We may be disagreeing only in matters of degree here but I am not so sure. The primary method of communication between people is via language. A language involves words and a set of rules on how to string the words together to form ideas. For language to be an effective form of communication, which it is in most cases, both parties must share the same knowledge concerning both the rules and the meanings of individual words.
Ok, but language is much more flexible then that. Besides, it is pretty limited. It limits itself because that's how the mind works. The mind cannot work with this universe without limiting it. The distance we try to limit and compare it in km, m, cm... The time we try to limit in years, hours, minutes... Those are just systems of measure to make communication and understanding possible, but they must not be mistaken by the reality of this universe.

If we each had different meanings for the same words then the language would be useless and effective communication would never take place. And since language has proved itself to be extremely effective in communication then, ergo, your claim that we all have different definitions for the same words is blatantly false.
The deviation in the meanings is enough to create big misunderstandings and still be able to communicate something. What actually happens is that we think that we passed the message, but the message received was actually another. It is exactly like that game where someone says a sentence and you have to whisper into someone else's ear and then that person has to pass it to the next person until it gets to the first again, and it does, the message is completly different.

What I think, and hope, you really mean is that many of us, while sharing a basic understanding of the same words place perhaps a difference emphasis or bias on certain words that can change their meanings in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways. The real value of debates such as this, especially where issues of concepts are involved, is that we can share and discuss the variations in meanings of words and hopefully reach a consensus on how to accurately interpret the words and their implications.
What I'm saying is that what defines the meaning of a word is our own experience with the basic definition of the word. It is the basic definition of the word combined with our experiences and perceptions. We may try to measure the discrepancy, so that your brain can processe it and limit it, so that you may understand it. Each word may be defined by:
<--------------------------------+---------------------->
personal meaning.....basic meaning...............personal meaning

Each word can be put into this spectrum and it will never be in the basic meaning. Since you are a living person, your definition will change over time and will always be flexible enough to even change from coversation to conversation, as you use it.

Your experiences and perceptions, limited by your brain, make all definitions for you very flexible. Unfortunatly, it happens unconsciently for everyone, until is brough to conscience by one's increase in self-awareness or the passing of the message by someone that is strong enough to make it clear, even into words. Since I found that out, I try to communicate it in the most flexible way possible. I try to adapt it from person to person so that it can be basically understood. If someone has even a hint of this Truth (the flexibility of language) then, this person may discover it for him/herself.

My objection to your particular approach is that you have a tendency to use radically different and very personal interpretations of words and concepts that are too different to the usually accepted basic understandings, and hence why we disagree so much.
You are no different then me. You also do that, but it appears that you are not conscious of it.

The issue you are raising here is a question of subjectivity, objectivity, and precision. I work in a research environment where objectivity and precision are paramount, and that I hope is my typical approach in these types of discussion as well. I suggest that the problem here is that you always use your own personal subjective interpretation of certain words and concepts and this is supported by your claimed distaste earlier of using a dictionary.
I hope after reading the above you understand that you do the same...

And tempered with decades of real world experience and the value of working in the world of science and technology where objectivity and precision have taught me how to discover truth and accuracy in all things I attempt.
Experience draws you to illusion, not Truth. With your experience, you will see all things in the light of your own experience. For example, if a Christian start talking with you, you wll probably say that his person is irrational, or whatever primary experience you had with Christians. However, you are talking with a Christian right now, and the last thing I am is irrational.:bugeye:

Your experience limits your understanding. It sets up something that is not necessarily true, it limits yourself. If a Jew is bad, it doesn't mean that all Jews are bad. If your family is loving, it doesn't mean all families are loving. If a nazy is gentle, it doesn't mean all nazies are gentle!:bugeye: One experience with a "word" don't define it.

You will probably defend yourself now, since I'm saying that you spent decades in something that doesn't give you any Truth... But this is quite subconscient in every one. Everyone thinks that they are right, everyone thinks that their definitions are true; be it consciently or subconsciently.

It is not an issue of better it is a matter of precision, accuracy and truth. The dictionary is a first stage and then we can explore possible differences based on real world observations.
You cannot know someone's mind, can you? How will you explore the possible differences, then?

As for this world being a mess then that is again a purely subjective opinion based on a limited perspective. Compared to the past when diseases were an overwhelming concern and where maximum life expectancy was only in the 30s, and wars were a common experience for most then the world today is a fabulous paradise.
Cris, I respectfully say to you: wake up. You live in the country that hold more than a third of the world's riches. Everyone else is different. There are billions of people that live in extremely different conditions. There are wars everywhere in Africa. There are still a lot of diseases killing billions there. Even at the US there is AIDS and cancer, not mentioning that they are caused by your own sins (be it lust, smoke, drink (which adds car accidents), etc). There is still also a lot of poverty in this world. The reality is different, basically, only in your own country.

No, you only think you are no different to everyone else because you are falsely assuming everyone makes judgments based on subjectivity like yourself.
Cris, I've just said I'm no different then anyone else...
It is arrogant to assume that I'm arrogant when I'm clearly stating that I'm no better then anyone else...
...who are you trying to trick?

You are incorrect again. And it has been typical for millennia and in nearly all literature than when someone talks about using one? heart, outside of a medical context, then they are specifically speaking about emotions and feelings. If you meant something else then select a word that is more precise and appropriate.
I use heart cause the Bible has a much more ancient and interesting conception of what "heart" actually means. It is not emotional, it is spiritual. The hard thing with spiritual matters is that they are very similar to emotional matters, but they are not directly connected.

Then use words that are more appropriate that we both share. I suggest you start by using a dictionary when you compose your essays.
No matter which words we use we will never get the same idea out of it. Of course, there are words that are better than others, but I don't know what those are, since I don't know what you have in your mind, your experiences and your perceptions.

The dictionary and most world literature disagrees with you. Knowing is a matter of the mind not the heart.
You do realize that this concept exist since the dawn of humanity and that it is far less accurate that can actually get, do you? The reason why you are so attached to that is that everything that you understand is based on that statemet: "Knowing is a matter of the mind not the heart.". To know with your heart, is to know naturaly, and this knowledge is far more accurate and simple then the one we currently use. Maybe it is time for a radical change...

You?e done it again; you?e created a term of your own and are hoping that we will understand what you mean. Search the web; the term ?atural knowledge?has been used by many and in different contexts to mean a wide variety of issues.
I meant something that you simply know it is true, without thinking about it. For example, when you were a kid, you would pee in your pants, wouldn't you? :D:D Why? because you didn't know how to control it. :D But then, you learned how to do it, so now it is natural for you not to pee in your pants. :D:D:D Not so good example, since it is physical, but that's the best I have now...

This is largely an example of an evolutionary inherited trait that does in fact invoke an emotional response of compassion and love in which case you are correct as it is a matter of the heart as well.
Agreed.

wesmorris,

I suggest you've sabotaged your mind for religion. To me, you've completely betrayed yourself for your mind is your one true gift.
Then how come I can use reason to discuss this subject?

If you fail to standardize the definitions of words in your mind, your are most correct that your attempts at reason will only lead to confusion.
You are no different then me, be subconsciously or consciously.


Cris,

I am quite sure that most people who have lived in the real world know that the greatest wisdom comes from direct experience. I don? believe anyone would dispute this.
I dispute this. Experience molds what you perceive. That's what I'm trying to say here. I still don't know why you don't understand that...

Truthseeker,

Wisdom from Experience.

How could a swimming instructor effectively teach others to swim if he could not swim himself?

What is the likely effectiveness of a sex counselor who is a virgin?

Would you trust a parachute instructor who has never jumped out of an aircraft?

Understanding the theory behind something provides some degree of wisdom over others who have not learnt the theory. Putting the theory into practice provides another level of wisdom that far exceeds the plain dry theory.

There are numerous things in life that simply cannot be fully appreciated until they are tried. Simply talking about them can never do them justice. Direct experience of most things results in a fundamental and different appreciation of reality that cannot be understood or properly learnt through any other mechanism.

For much of this you will be unable to understand until you have started to experience life for yourself. When this happens to you then it will be an epiphany.

Try explaining to a 5 year old the pleasure of masturbation. It is pointless until they are capable and can do it for themselves.

I very strongly suspect you cannot understand what I mean about the wisdom from experience because you have yet to discover this fundamental truth of reality for yourself. I also strongly recommend that you should get out more and experience life directly rather than theorize about it.

Best regards
Cris

Cris,

How could a swimming instructor effectively teach others to swim if he could not swim himself?
That's knowledge, not wisdom.

What is the likely effectiveness of a sex counselor who is a virgin?
That's knowledge, not wisdom.

Would you trust a parachute instructor who has never jumped out of an aircraft?
That's knowledge, not wisdom...

Understanding the theory behind something provides some degree of wisdom over others who have not learnt the theory. Putting the theory into practice provides another level of wisdom that far exceeds the plain dry theory.
Do you know the difference between wisdom and knowledge?

For much of this you will be unable to understand until you have started to experience life for yourself. When this happens to you then it will be an epiphany.
Someone that traveled through the whole Europe probably experienced much of life, isn't it? Besides, experience doesn't lead to wisdom, it leads to knowledge.

Try explaining to a 5 year old the pleasure of masturbation. It is pointless until they are capable and can do it for themselves.
They can do it... they just don't because they are far smarter then many of us are and it is not their nature to do such thing.

I very strongly suspect you cannot understand what I mean about the wisdom from experience because you have yet to discover this fundamental truth of reality for yourself. I also strongly recommend that you should get out more and experience life directly rather than theorize about it.
I experienced much of life. There are not many things I haven't experienced. I'm crazy to have kids, cause my life is pretty boring. Everyday I do the same things and I don't know whatelse I can do. Having kids is probably the last good thing that last for me to experience in this life... If there's something else, please tell me, cause I'm too bored with all that I've already done...:eek: :bugeye:

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
wesmorris,

Then how come I can use reason to discuss this subject?

In my opinion, you don't, can't and refuse to. That is why I'm not going to respond to further posts by you in this thread.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker

You are no different then me, be subconsciously or consciously.

You JUST were telling me in your last post or the one before that about how I'm so different than you. So different that I can't possibly gain anything from attempting you reason with you. About that much, I can see you were correct. Buh bye.

Truthseeker.

Oh man, I didn't realize you are just a kid. I apoligize. I hope you wise up a bit as you age. It's good that you are here, please the reason I say you have sabotaged your mind is because it seems as if you're saying you've already found truth. The problem is that the only way you really grow is by searching for it. You're a freakin KID and you think you know everything. You're way way off. I know it sucks, but you'll be amazed how much you mature over your life. I'm 33 and I'd swear I felt kind of complete in a way when I was 20. I thought I knew a lot of shit, but it isn't anything to what I've learned. Be patient, learn to recognize wisdom when you come across it. Chris isn't always right but he is definately wise. I'm somewhat wise myself, but kind of a smartassed jerk. There are many others who have a lot of wisdom to offer you. You should consider the possibility that there are people in the world who know more than you do. Later, you'll know more than other people too...

You really should live up to your handle, you seem more like "truthproclaimerwhodoesn'treallyknowshit".

Extract from the link at the end.

Wisdom is one of those slightly old-fashioned words, the type that slip out of style because they sound less punchy than the jargon we start using in their place. In time we forget about using it at all. And because the words we substitute aren't quite the same, we're made poorer by the substitutions, losing slices of the original meaning with each change.

So wisdom, good ol' sapientiae in Latin, hardly ever gets airtime these days. Instead, we talk about "cleverness," "I.Q.," "managerial know-how," or any of 50 not-quite synonyms. None of those really are interchangeable with wisdom, but they get used in its place. Meanwhile, wisdom, the original concept, is forgotten.

Wisdom is the ability to make sound choices, good decisions. The best decision. Wisdom is intelligence shaped by experience. Information softened by understanding. And it is in very short supply these days.

Wisdom is not something a person is born with. Intelligence is. Cleverness is. The ability to appear dynamic is. But Wisdom isn't. It only comes from living, from making mistakes — or from listening to others who have made mistakes and learned from them.

If wisdom is in short supply among our leaders, we don't have far to look for the culprits. It started disappearing along about the time we stopped expecting it.

The Wisdom Page - http://www.cop.com/wisdompg.html#10

Edit to clarify these are not my words but an extract.

wesmorris,

In my opinion, you don't, can't and refuse to. That is why I'm not going to respond to further posts by you in this thread.
That's the easiest way to "prove" yourself right, isn't?

You JUST were telling me in your last post or the one before that about how I'm so different than you. So different that I can't possibly gain anything from attempting you reason with you. About that much, I can see you were correct. Buh bye.
Talking about two different things...

Oh man, I didn't realize you are just a kid. I apoligize. I hope you wise up a bit as you age.
Don't think so. Wisdom doesn't come with time. It is not how big is the ocean that is important, it is how deep the ocean is.

It's good that you are here, please the reason I say you have sabotaged your mind is because it seems as if you're saying you've already found truth.
TruthSeeker...

The problem is that the only way you really grow is by searching for it.
I've been searching since I was 12...

You're a freakin KID and you think you know everything.
Never said that. All that I do is try to tell what I see that is foolish in this world. I'm still not there...

You're way way off.
Have you ever though it might be you that is way off?

I know it sucks, but you'll be amazed how much you mature over your life.
Knowledge won't help me so much... Wisdom does help me, as it grows...

I'm 33 and I'd swear I felt kind of complete in a way when I was 20.
I've never felt complete. Indeed, I feel so incomplete that everyday I try to work harder to find Truth... but it's not very easy...

I thought I knew a lot of shit, but it isn't anything to what I've learned.
I've learn a lot about Quantum Physics, Astrophysics and Subatomic Particles, but I found nothing there... I even though I was getting closer to the Truth, but later I realized that I was still very far away... so I took another road and got closer to it, instead of farther away...

Be patient, learn to recognize wisdom when you come across it.
I do... whatever God tells me about Love is wisdom.

Chris isn't always right but he is definately wise.
Not really! The reason of this world is foolishness before God. Cris is still pretty far away from being wise...

There are many others who have a lot of wisdom to offer you.
God is more than enough...

You should consider the possibility that there are people in the world who know more than you do.
I don't seek knowledge... besides knowing the Truth...

Later, you'll know more than other people too...
I'm far more mature than many people with twice of my age. I didn't say that, it was a guy twice of my age that told me that.

You really should live up to your handle, you seem more like "truthproclaimerwhodoesn'treallyknowshit".
I do my best to show people how foolish this world is...

Cris, you make an excellent point about wisdom. I'm generally very impressed with your insights and this one is no different. However, it seems you are putting a little bit of a negative spin on it. I only mean that I don't know if wisdom is really in short supply, or if it's just that the media is in such large supply that it makes everything else seem small. I think people like you for instance, people like a few of my profs in college, a few people I work with, some people online here, my wife's dad... well, there is a lot of wisdom in the world I think. It's just that well, the volume is turned up so damn loud on the radio, I mean the TV, no uh.. that magazine there.. no I mean the web. It make it harder to realize there is wisdom all around us.

*shrug*

Maybe it's that since there are more people, there are more people who don't recognized wisdom and aren't prone to seek it, but the percentage is the same.

*shrug*

truthseeker,

Someone that traveled through the whole Europe probably experienced much of life, isn't it? Besides, experience doesn't lead to wisdom, it leads to knowledge.As Lex Luthor once said -

Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it was a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secret of the universe.

Wisdom is something that one develops over time through the acquisition of knowledge, through experience, through learning, from intelligence, from being willing to listen to others, from humility, and from an ability to put it altogether.

Some people never achieve wisdom no matter how long they live yet some acquire it in their youth. It is not something that can be easily taught if at all.

Cris,

Wisdom is the ability to make sound choices, good decisions. The best decision. Wisdom is intelligence shaped by experience. Information softened by understanding. And it is in very short supply these days.
I agree with almost all that. It is all that besides "intelligence shaped by experience". You don't need experience to be wise.

Wisdom is not something a person is born with. Intelligence is. Cleverness is. The ability to appear dynamic is. But Wisdom isn't. It only comes from living, from making mistakes ?or from listening to others who have made mistakes and learned from them.
We don't born with wisdom but we gain it naturally, and not by making mistakes and learning from them.

If wisdom is in short supply among our leaders, we don't have far to look for the culprits. It started disappearing along about the time we stopped expecting it.
Indeed... wise people such as Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, Buddha and Mother Teresa is extremely hard nowdays...

Originally posted by Cris
Truthseeker,

Wisdom from Experience.

...

What is the likely effectiveness of a sex counselor who is a virgin?

...
Best regards
Cris

Exactly what the RCC is trying to do...they're all celibate, all they know are struggle, fantasies, and masturbation and they think they can tell the rest of the world how to have sex. Pathetic.

Wisdom does come from experience, though it is not ALL about experience. Direct experience hardwires a piece of knowledge much more firmly into you than study of knowledge can ever do. And with such hardwired knowledge, you are able to use it and express it almost instinctively with much more flexibility. Of course, if you trust too much in your own experience your mind can quickly atrophy and ossify.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Cris,

Indeed... wise people such as Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, Buddha and Mother Teresa is extremely hard nowdays...

Don't forget the number of Hindu saints who are still alive today. They're not exactly devoid of wisdom. Same to current practitioners of many other religions.

Wes,

The text on the Wisdom Page post is from the link and are not my words. I’ll have to stop putting the extract first and the link last.

I think I somewhat agree with you. I posted the link since it seems relevant to the topic and the definition isn’t bad. But I think my last post to T is more accurate and does represent more of my perspective

wesmorris,

Cris, you make an excellent point about wisdom. I'm generally very impressed with your insights and this one is no different.
How easy it is to agree and worship someone that is like yourself...:rolleyes: He is "right" because YOU are "right", do you get that? You worship one another so that you can both get credit. That's sad...

However, it seems you are putting a little bit of a negative spin on it. I only mean that I don't know if wisdom is really in short supply, or if it's just that the media is in such large supply that it makes everything else seem small.
Wisdom is lost in the foolishness of this world.

I think people like you for instance, people like a few of my profs in college, a few people I work with, some people online here, my wife's dad... well, there is a lot of wisdom in the world I think.
Cris and profs in college are probably not the right ones to be called wise.

Cris,

Some people never achieve wisdom no matter how long they live yet some acquire it in their youth. It is not something that can be easily taught if at all.
If so, then time and experience has nothing to do with wisdom. Can you please realize that? Besides that, wisdom is something that we actually can apply i life. If you have a knowledge that cannot be used in your life, then that's not wisdom.

If so, then time and experience has nothing to do with wisdom
Yes it does. It's all about what you do with your time and experience.

Zero,

Wisdom does come from experience, though it is not ALL about experience. Direct experience hardwires a piece of knowledge much more firmly into you than study of knowledge can ever do. And with such hardwired knowledge, you are able to use it and express it almost instinctively with much more flexibility. Of course, if you trust too much in your own experience your mind can quickly atrophy and ossify.
Thanks Zero! That's a very good way to tell that to Cris...:bugeye:

Wisdom is to be able to apply "knowledge" naturally, almost instintively. It also comes from a natural knowledge that doesn't come from experience. If you limit yourself to your own experience, than you are not wise. If you expand yourself and don't pay much attention to your own experience, then you can understand others better, and consequently, the world. That's what I've been saying...

notme2000,

Yes it does. It's all about what you do with your time and experience.
How does limiting the whole world to your own experience make yourself wise? Wisdom is from undertanding the world, not using your own perspective, but the world's perspective, it is seeing the world's perspetive and actually overcoming it.

In Rama, I think the octospider characters mention something about an "ossification coefficient". Interesting tidbit there. Read it, Rama rocks. The whole schmole, I mean.

wes,

Cris isn't always right Ahh nuts, I was hoping no one had noticed.

but he is definitely wise.Unfortunately wisdom is relative. I appear wise to some maybe, but to others far beyond me I know nearly nothing. And the opinions of those who have no wisdom simply don’t count.

I work in a research environment as a first line manager and I am fortunate enough to work closely with some very bright people. Compared to them I am very much a junior. But such people seem to share certain common characteristics – quiet, humble, unassuming, good listeners, incredibly insightful, and of few words. Their answers to questions tend to be penetrating and devastating. I see these people as examples of true wisdom.

In a training course many years ago I led a small team that had to design a particular object. My team won easily because of my direction and design. But I was unhappy. The instructor congratulated me and asked me why I was unhappy. My answer was simply that I felt I could have done much better.

I do not find it satisfactory to sometimes be better than someone else. I measure any successes against what I feel I could do and am only content, very rarely, if I feel I have done everything possible. I am perhaps my own worst critic.

So because I know there are people wiser than me then I would not consider myself wise in the absolute sense. But I guess I have developed some wisdom over the years, and while that might sound immodest it reminds me of a quote I heard once “it is a foolish man indeed who does not know he is wise”. To always ignore what you know and not realize you have wisdom to impart is to deny reality. I try to temper that with humility whenever I can. But I am afraid that compliments do make me cringe.

truthseeker,

time and experience has nothing to do with wisdom.Wisdom is learnt hence time must pass. Experience contributes to wisdom so it is but one of the sources of wisdom but not the only source. However, as I stated earlier “the greatest wisdom comes from direct experience”.

The amount of time that passes differs between individuals, some must wait forever and never become enlightened, with others it is quick.

Besides that, wisdom is something that we actually can apply i life. Perhaps but not necessarily.

If you have a knowledge that cannot be used in your life, then that's not wisdom.Knowledge can result in wisdom but whether you make use of it or not is entirely a different matter.

How does limiting the whole world to your own experience make yourself wise?That’s a loaded question. Gaining wisdom through experience is not a limiting activity. The experience opens new insights into reality and turns dry knowledge into realizations.

You are interpreting ‘experience’ to mean a subjective personal perspective. I interpret ‘experience’ to mean the confirmation of knowledge imparted by others.

Wisdom is from undertanding the world, not using your own perspective, but the world's perspective, it is seeing the world's perspetive and actually overcoming it.The greatest wisdom comes from actually experiencing the world. This is the closest one can come to true reality. It is through direct experience that one can more easily achieve understanding.

But experience is only one of the sources to wisdom.

Truthseeker:

You say that experience has nothing to do with wisdom.

Your reasoning is that experience is filtered through ourselves, that our perceptions cannot be more than our own. Well, I think that that’s exactly what your book is – a filter, and one that proscribes a method for seeing and understanding.

I also think that behind this lies your belief that "providing wisdom to others is something a wise person would do." Therefore, perhaps, you are concerned with a person's qualifications for doing so. I think that you forget that when it comes to experience, there are different types of people.

There are those who think they can accumulate it vicariously, through books.

Other people might experience something and assume that they have got at the truth of the matter, that the pattern holds true for all others too.

On the other hand, there are those who consistently remind themselves of the very fact you speak of, that their experience is their own. But in doing so, there’s an interest to discover the larger picture, having had a glimpse of it, of which we are part. Our own experience is the only starting point we can possible have for doing this. The extension of this is communicating with other people, because we have to see the differences to get at the similarities, the common ground, some essence of the reality and core of things. Again, the “big picture,” which may be what wisdom is all about. It’s that something “more”.

To give a little example, you can read all about drug addiction, etc., and think you can acquire some wise insights on the matter. You can be a drug addict or alcoholic, but insular, and think that what has happened to you is “how it is” for everyone else too. Or you know this isn’t so and go to NA and CA and AA, listen to other people, share things, and understand that though the destination may be the same all our paths are different. But somewhere in that difference, from assembling and merging and overlaying experiences something emerges that, in the old saying, is bigger than the sum, bigger than our own experience. In fact, so much bigger that it speaks to a lot more than the nature of addiction, say, but to something of the human condition perhaps. It’s something learned, from experience that can be applied to much more than the experience it started with.

And if you say that experience counts for nothing, because the mind is a filter that colours our perceptions, precludes our seeing the “truth,” then what is your book? Surely it’s a filter too, one with a proscribed method for discovering it.

A smart man will learn from his own mistakes.

A wise man will learn from the mistakes of others.

Cris, nice posts. I just wanted to share my perspective and highlight my questionable wisdom. I've gone both ways regarding personal knowledge. I used to think that it was important to be humble, I've thought it important to have more confidence than you deserve. Now I've realized what I think is true: know your strengths and weaknesses. Don't be overly proud, don't be overly humble. Do your utmost to attain an objective perspective of where you stand amongst the other humans.

I believe this perspective is representative of the economic struggle of life. Know it so you can sell it. I belive it applies to every walk of life. What percentile are you at regarding skill or attribute x? Ball park figures work okay so long as you remember their just guestimations. This way is in my opinion the most efficient way to get through interactions with most of the people... except for family in your personal life... then the same applies but with explicit love in the mix.

I'm not sure I've clearly stated what I intended, but I'd imagine you are equiped to infer.

MacZ,

As we grow up our eyes have more difficulty to see. That book is like glasses for us to see better. Yes, it is a filter, but it makes us see things in a clearer way. Only because our eyes see things blurry when we look at things closely and far away, that doesn't mean that things are the way we see them. That only means that our eyes our grew too fast and became too big, or they didn't grow enough. What we perceive is not necessarily what is true. Do you know what I'm saying? Do you understand the parable?

truthseeker,

In doing some further research on memetics I found this passage that describes your posts here nearly perfectly. The text below is from the perspective of the Christian meme, which is pretty close to your perspectives. In short your behavior and posts indicate someone who has been infected by a cultural virus.

The third mind game is verbicide.

It is, quite literally, distorting, even destroying the meaning of words so that they have a different meaning to the believer than the non-believer. By giving the believer an understanding of the meaning of words that the authors intend, rather than the generally understood meanings, the general impression of a religious experience (the first mind game) is reinforced. The believer is led to understand the a "hidden meaning" has been "revealed" by the "holy spirit." The New Testament is riddled with such double meanings. When one understands the hidden meanings, the phrase often has a meaning radically different than the one understood by a casual reader. Examples of words with hidden meanings:

Life

Casual meaning – a state of non-death; being aware.
To the believer – being in a state of spiritual sensitivity arising out of the state of belief; being saved; being in a state of salvation (depending on context).

Death

Casual meaning – a state of not being alive; the endpoint of living.
To the believer – Not being spiritually sensitive; not being saved; not being in a state of salvation (depending on context).

Truth

Casual meaning – That which is real, verifiable, reality apart from human understanding.
To the believer – That which is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Wisdom

Casual meaning – Understandings that are shown to be correct.
To the believer – the doctrines of the "Gospel" as revealed by the "holy spirit".

The other key words are "righteousness" (meaning being converted and living according to the doctrines), "justice" (punishment dealt out to the unconverted), "liberty" (the feeling of freedom from the effects of sin felt by the believer), "bondage" (being controlled by "Satan"), "love" (a feeling of connection with God), "hate" (not being tolerant of unbelief), "will" (the understanding that you no longer wish to do anything contrary to the will of God), "witness" (being an agent for the teaching and spread of belief), and "word" (the collection of doctrines known as the Gospel). There are other words as well, but the above are the more significant words.

When one fully understands the meanings of these words as used in code to the believer, one can then go back and read the words of the New Testament and understand the intended code meaning.

As one does so, it becomes apparent how the verbiage means one thing to the casual reader and something quite different to the true believer. But what really stands out, when you examine it dispassionately, is how the new, hidden meaning is calculated to influence behavior.

The verbicide mind game is unrelenting in how it is designed to hook the believer into thinking he has a "special" understanding. The principal synergy of this mind game is with the first mind game to reinforce the warm and fuzzy feeling that the believer has, through divine "grace," been given access to something special and deeply meaningful, not available to the "unsaved."

While you might use different variations of wordings you are nevertheless behaving exactly according to the pattern predicted by memetics. And in your case your use of verbicide is extensive.

How accurate do you feel this observation?

wes,

Now I've realized what I think is true: know your strengths and weaknesses. Don't be overly proud, don't be overly humble. Do your utmost to attain an objective perspective of where you stand amongst the other humans.Yup pretty much. What it amounts to is that we are trying to achieve an understanding of ourselves. Most never make it, but the closer you come then the easier it is to understand others. Operate within your own limitations.

MacZ,

As we grow up our eyes have more difficulty to see. That book is like glasses for us to see better. Yes, it is a filter, but it makes us see things in a clearer way. Only because our eyes see things blurry when we look at things closely and far away, that doesn't mean that things are the way we see them. That only means that our eyes our grew too fast and became too big, or they didn't grow enough. What we perceive is not necessarily what is true. Do you know what I'm saying? Do you understand the parable?
No, I don't. That is, I would have to take the first sentence to be tru for it to have any meaning or value, and I don't.

When you argue within parameters of your own making, as you are here, and a truth of your own invention ("As we grow up our eyes have more difficulty to see") it may make sense to you, and seem right, but it would, wouldn't it?

Cris has hit the nail on the head in this, by pointing out how you have attempted to do a lateral shift on the meaning of the words involved here in an obvious attempt to draw everyone in to a debate within your parameters.

As he points out, this shift is away from "generally understood meanings", hinting that there is a truer, or hidden meaning - and that you know what it is, that you are closer to it.

You also do this by stating that experience, knowlege and time have nothing to with wisdom, leaving what? Again, you're attempting to suggest, in throwing out all the commonly discussed possibilities, that you are harbouring a secret. And, as the void you leave is so blank, one could only assume (even without your having mentioned your book) that wisdom is somehow divinely supplied.

You're an elitist. What, for example, is this all about?
Wisdom is from undertanding the world, not using your own perspective, but the world's perspective, it is seeing the world's perspetive and actually overcoming it.

Cris,

It is, quite literally, distorting, even destroying the meaning of words so that they have a different meaning to the believer than the non-believer. By giving the believer an understanding of the meaning of words that the authors intend, rather than the generally understood meanings, the general impression of a religious experience (the first mind game) is reinforced. The believer is led to understand the a "hidden meaning" has been "revealed" by the "holy spirit." The New Testament is riddled with such double meanings. When one understands the hidden meanings, the phrase often has a meaning radically different than the one understood by a casual reader. Examples of words with hidden meanings:
Those "hidden meanings" are called (by the general public) "metaphors". They are widely used in the Bible, mainly by Jesus. There are also parables (which is clearly stated in the Bible), allegories, etc. They don't distort the meaning of the words, but rather it is a way to explain something that cannot be understandable in the normal everyday language (mainly in those times...).

Another thing is that many of the words were almost mistranslated because the Hebrew and Greek languages work in a completly different way than the English. Words like "allow" in Hebrew were translated as "to do"... which is far different. Also, "of" were many times mistranslated as "in" (Greek), like in "Have the faith in God", it is actually "Have the faith of God", which gives a far more interesting insight.

Besides that, Christians are educated to be humble. They are educated to Love their enemies. We have a far different mind then yours, since we valorize more our well being then our knowledge. We are not "special". God created everyone in the same way. Every Christain knows that. It is true that some Christians feel special, some are even arrogant, but that's by far a minority. Christains see everyone as equal, but strive to help others. They are compassionate. Many are gentle. Many are very tough because of their trials. All of them are warriors wich best weapon is Love. We are different, we are not "special"... God provided salvation to everyone and in the same way God made everyone like Him.

Truth

Casual meaning ? That which is real, verifiable, reality apart from human understanding.
To the believer ? That which is revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Not necessarily. God gave us a Christ-like mind. Sometimes we use it. I used it in the post for MacZ, for example.

Wisdom

Casual meaning ? Understandings that are shown to be correct.
To the believer ? the doctrines of the "Gospel" as revealed by the "holy spirit".
That's completly wrong.

Proverbs 1:1-3
"1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:
2 To know wisdom and instruction,
To discern the sayings of understanding,
3 To receive instruction in wise behavior,
Righteousness, justice and equity;"


Proverbs 3:19-20
"19 The LORD by wisdom founded the earth,
By understanding He established the heavens.
20 By His knowledge the deeps were broken up
And the skies drip with dew. "

An example of metaphors... or "hidden meanings" as you say...
Proverbs 8:1-2
"1 Does not (1) wisdom call,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 On top of (2) the heights beside the way,
Where the paths meet, she takes her stand; "

Metaphors are a sign of wisdom. Those who can compare things in such deep ways must be wise (otherwise, how could they do that?)...

Read this whole chapter... it is all about wisdom... pretty good.. :)
Proverbs 8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PROV+8&language=english&version=NASB&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Chapter 9 is good too... The whole Proverbs is good... :) It's all about wisdom... But be careful, cause it is all metaphors.

"righteousness" (meaning being converted and living according to the doctrines)
Totally wrong! It means to act like God, to live by God's way, to walk in Love.

"justice" (punishment dealt out to the unconverted)
Totally wrong again! Justice is the victory of Truth over the lies of the enemy. It has absolutly nothing to do with non-Christians.

"bondage" (being controlled by "Satan")
No, it is just having his way, not to be controled...

"love" (a feeling of connection with God)
That's almost al right. Love is a deep and meaningful, conscious connection with God. Is an awareness of His presence and an action in His ways.

"will" (the understanding that you no longer wish to do anything contrary to the will of God)
Completly wrong. Many times the will of a believer is completly different then the will of God.

"witness" (being an agent for the teaching and spread of belief)
No. It is just telling the Truth when it is asked.

"word" (the collection of doctrines known as the Gospel)
Far away from that. Word is the inerent power of God. It is the primary thing in the universe.

John 1:1-5
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. "

As one does so, it becomes apparent how the verbiage means one thing to the casual reader and something quite different to the true believer. But what really stands out, when you examine it dispassionately, is how the new, hidden meaning is calculated to influence behavior.
"dispassionatly" is quite funny... :D:D
When you examine "passionatly", then you get that idea...:D:D:D

The verbicide mind game is unrelenting in how it is designed to hook the believer into thinking he has a "special" understanding. The principal synergy of this mind game is with the first mind game to reinforce the warm and fuzzy feeling that the believer has, through divine "grace," been given access to something special and deeply meaningful, not available to the "unsaved."
That's wrong. That's avaiable for everyone. It is just a question of simply receiving it. You don't want to receive, you don't have it.

While you might use different variations of wordings you are nevertheless behaving exactly according to the pattern predicted by memetics. And in your case your use of verbicide is extensive.
You mean that my use of figures of language is extensive? Why, thanks... :)

This verbicide is a myth. It is simply not true. What you call "verbicide" is actually simple figures of language. :D:D

Macz,

No, I don't. That is, I would have to take the first sentence to be tru for it to have any meaning or value, and I don't.

When you argue within parameters of your own making, as you are here, and a truth of your own invention ("As we grow up our eyes have more difficulty to see") it may make sense to you, and seem right, but it would, wouldn't it?

Is it so hard to interpret a simple metaphor? I meant that our ideas about the world become distorted as we grow up, by the simple fact that as we grow up, we start interpreting the world in the light of our own exerience, definitions and perspectives. Everyone's eyes are different. Each person see the world in a different way.

Cris has hit the nail on the head in this, by pointing out how you have attempted to do a lateral shift on the meaning of the words involved here in an obvious attempt to draw everyone in to a debate within your parameters.
Far from that... I simply use simple figures of language since I'm limited by words and my subject lacks words in English (or any other language :eek: ) to be expressed. Language is limited by our knowledge. Since I go deeper in this knowledge, then I must use figures of language, as the vocabulary I need simply don't exist. Not much different then Eastern Philosophies in this aspect...

As he points out, this shift is away from "generally understood meanings", hinting that there is a truer, or hidden meaning - and that you know what it is, that you are closer to it.
The "hidden meaning" is the interpretation of the metaphor. It usually has more than one interpretation, but all of them are true. It is nothing "mtstica" or whatever, it is simply language. We need to use those tools to communicate (or try to communicate :eek: ) what we know.

You also do this by stating that experience, knowlege and time have nothing to with wisdom, leaving what? Again, you're attempting to suggest, in throwing out all the commonly discussed possibilities, that you are harbouring a secret. And, as the void you leave is so blank, one could only assume (even without your having mentioned your book) that wisdom is somehow divinely supplied.
One only needs to loo to be able to see. If you refuxe to look, then you will not see at all. Do you understand? No? Why? Because you can't understand a simple metaphor??:confused:
I don't leave it blank, I show it all. You just need to look. Read what I say and think about it. Be impartial about it. Then, you might get something out of it.

You're an elitist. What, for example, is this all about?
Wisdom is from undertanding the world, not using your own perspective, but the world's perspective, it is seeing the world's perspetive and actually overcoming it.

If you are like the world, how better are you then the world itself? If you cannot transcend yourself, how strong you are? If your wisdom is no greater then this world's wisdom, how different you are from this world? For the wisdom you have is no greater or different then that of a killer, thus making you no much different then a killer. For you are separate from a killer, just by actions and intentions and no more then that. You share the same wisdom, you share the same understanding. You are only greater then him in intent and action, but not in knowledge. For he knows no more than you do, and so you know no more than he does. To make a real difference and to be really wise is to be wiser then this world and different then this world. To be a rebel against the system is no crime, but an accomplishment. It is to be stronger than this world, to overcome this world's agenda. From that you get true wisdom: from being different, from being yourself.

Truthseeker:

There’s no need to explain your parable. I get it; I understand it – in the literal sense. I took it that you were asking if I understood it in the sense of “does it deliver something of meaning, of value?” No, it doesn’t.

As I said, I have difficulty with your premise:
As we grow up our eyes have more difficulty to see
Rather than repeating your parable, you might like to expand on your premise by offering some hypothetical example to support it, something more substantive that what you’ve offered so far.

You see, I can’t see how we “see less” by seeing more - by having more experiences. You suggest that that subsequent experiences reinforce – reaffirm – mistaken notions gained from earlier experiences, mistaken (in your opinion) because our experiences have been filtered though our minds and are therefore too individualistic, too much of an “illusion”, to represent anything of the “truth”.

It’s my feeling that quite the opposite is true. The more experiences we have, the more we encounter something that knocks the stuffing out of earlier ideas. We become less likely to assume anything at all, least of all the idea that we’re right, that our view, our experience is the defining one.

You (inadvertently?) advocate the value of experience - the more the better - when you say:
If a Jew is bad, it doesn't mean that all Jews are bad. If your family is loving, it doesn't mean all families are loving. If a nazy is gentle, it doesn't mean all nazies are gentle!
How else are we to discover this, if not through experience?

T,

I simply use simple figures of language since I'm limited by words and my subject lacks words in English (or any other language ) to be expressed. Language is limited by our knowledge. Most people explain their ideas using plain language and then support those explanations, if they are complex, by using metaphors and analogies, etc. The metaphors and analogies have little meaning on their own without the plain language explanation first.

What you tend to do is entirely skip the plain language attempt and go straight to metaphors and analogies. The result is meaningless gibberish to everyone except you.

The English language is incredibly rich in its ability to portray complex ideas and concepts. There are millions of examples across the world of books written by authors who have accomplished such things.

Your claim that your implied deeper understanding of your subject is so advanced that there is no appropriate language to express it lacks all credibility. Given your age and immaturity a far more credible explanation is that you simply lack the basic understanding of philosophical foundations and are desperately trying to express your fantasy ideas without the appropriate vocabulary, something that is commonly available to all average philosophers and above.

MacZ,

There? no need to explain your parable. I get it; I understand it ?in the literal sense. I took it that you were asking if I understood it in the sense of ?oes it deliver something of meaning, of value??No, it doesn?.
Don't interpret it literally, and then if you think about it, you will understand...

Rather than repeating your parable, you might like to expand on your premise by offering some hypothetical example to support it, something more substantive that what you?e offered so far.
I'm saying that it is more important to know things in deph then to know a lot of things. For example, it is more important to know chess really well then to know chess, Physics, Math, Biology, etc and not being in deph in any of those things. What I'm actually saying, is that as we experience things, we have more and more things to look after and we don't and can't understand all of them in the same deph as if we would understand only one. Do you get? It's the difference between quality and quantity.

You see, I can? see how we ?ee less?by seeing more - by having more experiences. You suggest that that subsequent experiences reinforce ?reaffirm ?mistaken notions gained from earlier experiences, mistaken (in your opinion) because our experiences have been filtered though our minds and are therefore too individualistic, too much of an ?llusion? to represent anything of the ?ruth?
What I said is as our eyes grow (as we have more experiences), then we can see less, cause everything becomes blurry (it's like not having enough memory for the graphics, in a computer). The blurriness is to compensate the amount of information. The mind is limited. If it is too crowded, there will be confusion, and it will lack deph.

It? my feeling that quite the opposite is true. The more experiences we have, the more we encounter something that knocks the stuffing out of earlier ideas. We become less likely to assume anything at all, least of all the idea that we?e right, that our view, our experience is the defining one.
Well, that's exactly what I'm saying that is not. Our own experiences are not the defining ones, since everyone has their own personal experiences. It changes from person to person. It's like someone that said here some time ago that there is no single Truth, that it differs from person to person. What I'm saying now is that there IS a single Truth that is beyond what we define as truth, to ourselves.

How else are we to discover this, if not through experience?
We cannot judge someone or something through what it appears to be. We cannot judge even someone's action. One's action doesn't express one's intention. We all make mistakes. What is a mistake? A mistake is when our actions doesn't satisfy our intentions. Then, how can we judge someone by his/her actions, if we don't know their intentions?? To really "judge" someone (or something) you must overcome your own mind, your own limitations.

What I said there was simply how people make assumptions because of their own experiences. Think of